35 - Recreational dating with less guilt and more fun

Dating after divorce doesn’t need to be chaotic, heavy, or ruled by outdated “game” tactics. We dive deep into recreational dating as a clean, honest framework that helps dads decompress, sharpen essential skills, and choose commitment only when it’s truly earned. Starting with a listener email from New Zealand, we outline why this exploratory phase matters and how to navigate it without guilt—or manipulation.

We get practical fast: listening more than you talk, resisting the urge to project onto an attractive stranger, and making clear invitations with no strings. We talk about holding frame—your internal compass of yeses and noes—as the backbone of healthy dating. You’ll hear how boundaries and consistency create safety, why some testing happens, and how playfulness and kindness help both people relax. We also reframe “spinning plates” the right way: not ego or conquest, but acknowledging you don’t know someone well enough to commit yet, while staying transparent and respectful.

There are real trade-offs, especially for dads. Time is limited, emotions can fray, and burnout is common when you juggle parenting with new connections. We share strategies to protect your bandwidth, avoid rebound traps, and keep curiosity alive so you don’t drift into cynicism. The most powerful shift? Turning the spotlight inward. After every date, ask how you led, listened, and adapted. That self-inquiry keeps your energy renewing and aligns dating with the life you’re building—health, fatherhood, friendships, and mission. When exclusivity happens, it comes from a free, informed yes instead of pressure or timelines.

If you’re a divorced dad who wants clarity, calm, and genuine fun while meeting new women—without playing games—this conversation gives you a grounded roadmap. Subscribe, share with a dad who needs it, and leave a review to help others find the show. What boundary will you hold on your next date?

Transcript

Global Audience And Listener Email

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Hello, and welcome to Dad's Dating After Divorce, the only podcast where we teach you how to do more with plates than just wash them. My name is Jude Sandval, and I am the founder of The Divorce Dabba Kit. And my co-host is Dallas Bluth, the founder of Black Box Dating. Dallas, did you did you like that one? It's a little foreshadowing, right? We learned that in high school, how to foreshadow.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Yeah, yeah, it is. I'm well, what ran through my mind is you're gonna come up with a new one of these for every episode. Stay tuned. Like and subscribe if you want to find out.

Defining Recreational Dating

SPEAKER_00 0:58

If you want to find out, tune again next week. Well, first, listen through this episode because that was a little bit of foreshadowing. Because what we're gonna be talking about, we got a really terrific email from a listener, actually in New Zealand. So, Dallas, did you know we've been listened to in 21 countries and 179 cities across the world? And actually, outside of the United States, Australia and the UK are the other two most popular places that we're listened to. So, so you know, shout out to to our folks uh across the world that are that are listening. Uh apparently there are a lot of dads dating in uh all across the across the world that uh that needs some of your your pearls. So pretty cool. It is not, it's uh it's it's a sad, sad reality, but that's why we're here to to to help you in life 2.0. And so let's talk. And and so the point of that bringing that up was that uh our friend, he was from from New Zealand, asked if we would talk a little bit more about recreational dating or some call it casual. We call it recreational here. We've come we've landed on that term together. Some call it casual dating, some call it spinning plates. Rolo Tomasi and in his book calls it that. That's the reference, guys, about and we'll talk about what that what that means a little bit later in the in in the show. So so the kind of the mindset from our from our listener was hey, I'm back in I'm back into dating again. You talked about recreational dating. I'm really intrigued about that because I think that's where I need to be right now. Can you talk in more detail? Because we've talked about the recreational dating before. So what we're gonna do is we're gonna talk in more much more detail about recreational dating because we've we've now, as dads, transitioned from monogamous to you know, in a long-term marriage to out there dating, and you're going to be dating more than one person, hopefully, in in the beginning here. And you know, I I just want to acknowledge that after spending years being a husband and being in that husband role, many many guys like our listener are just lost in then showing up and starting to date and then maybe dating more than one person. It's just it's a little bit confusing, right? And and unless you are a player back in the day or you are a newfound player and you're reading all the game books and whatever else, which I'm going to not recommend uh that that you do. Listen to it to Dallas and go to Dallas and Dallas's group. Leave the books and the game books alone. Those are so 2000 anyway, Dallas, right? But but let's uh let's first start off with defining what recreational dating is. And I'll I'll I'll let you I'll let you give your your definition that you understand what we what we've kind of come to terms with what that is.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Well, I I think in the in the context that we're talking about, recreational dating, it's the phase of dating before you become committed. It's the phase of dating before you're exclusive, before you're you're you you and the woman have both explicitly agreed that you're not gonna be seeing other people. And the point of the recreational dating is is to hold space for getting to know that person so that you're not committing to the wrong person. That's that's really kind of what's at the core of it. The other part of it is to to enjoy yourself. You know, as a as a single dad, you don't have a whole lot of time. You gotta be careful about how you spend it. You want to make sure you're getting the most out of it. And looking at it as recreational as opposed to, you know, the other term casual, really make sure that you're you're spending your time in a way that that you're you're enjoying it. It's charging up your battery, you're you're feeling good about it. Uh, it helps you with with some discernment. Uh, what would you like to add to that definition?

Cutting Through “Game” Culture

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Yeah, no, I think that's that's that's perfect. The only thing I'll I'll just the juxtaposition is you would be dating to find somebody to get into a long-term relationship and eventually marriage or or potentially marriage would be the opposite, I guess, of recreational dating. You're not looking to, you may or may not be looking to do that, depending. And we're going to talk about kind of the the the phases, if you will, of whether you're you're doing recreational dating for that and what that phase is, or you're just recreationally dating, period. And and I do want to to point out we're we're not saying it's not recreational dating so that you're again the game theory, because what gets confused, I think, a ton Dallas is people, oh well, you know, you're you're a player, you've got, you know, you're just running game on me, or or all this game stuff that was really literally from the 2000s, right? Like that that's that recreational dating, casual dating is just that, just trying to get somebody to sleep with you or sleep with lots of women at the same time, which is kind of where that spinning plates thing has kind of fallen in. So that's not what we're advocating here, and that's not what we're talking about. And we're gonna and I'm and I think Dallas, what I'm gonna do is you know, I'm gonna be talking about that because there's so I'm gonna be pointing that out as we go continually, because there's so much bad information out there on the on the internet that we cutting through the noise. We just have to for for us, I feel like we have to do the duty of cutting through the noise for for for dad. Because honestly, when I was when I was going through my notes here, I'm like, oh boy, wow, this was yeah, this was pretty much me. And this was pretty much me until just like not too long ago. And wow, I wish I really would have had somebody other than reading all of those books and listening to all those podcasts and reading all those blogs to really give me the the like a a really I don't want to say wholesome, but a a better perspective of how to do this after after you know after divorce.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Yeah, let me let me just throw in that I I I'm I'm totally on board with this definition that that we're using of recreational dating, of it's a it's a precursor to a committed relationship. I also want to throw out there though that if what you want in your dating life is not to get into a long-term committed relationship, that's your choice. This isn't this isn't a moral, this isn't a moral question. The only moral question I would bring up is be honest with women about that. Um honesty is is one of the few, one of the few rules that I have when I talk with my clients is you don't lie to a woman. You just don't. I'm I'm not interested in working with you if you do. That's the, you know, so I just want to say that so we're we're taking the approach of how does recreational dating, dating more than one woman, getting to know more than one woman, because it is a very volatile environment. It's a very fluid environment. And and until it's locked in, it's not locked in. You've you've actually you've actually nailed it on the the talk that I'm having tonight with my mastermind group is is around this very topic. So this is this is actually perfectly.

Why Recreational Dating Helps Dads

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Well, and I'll add that it can be very dangerous too. And I've had some experiences around that with circumstances and situations that you can find yourself in. So as a dad, you don't want to find yourself in any of those circumstances. So so there there are, and I don't I don't want to scare anybody, but there are circumstances where where you need to pay attention and uh and and make sure that you're you're uh that you're you're covering yourself and that you're and that you're doing the right thing. So let's let's talk about the the the benefits and you kind of hit on the the first one that that I wanted to bring up, which was hey, if you want to be in this phase of recreational dating and you want to do this for an extended period of time, which is probably not a bad time, at least right post divorce, you're you're going through a time of emotional decompression, uh, if if you will, if you've gone through a divorce and if if it was high, if it was if it was high conflict, there are just uh you know, it might your life might feel heavy, and you don't want to go into dating with a heaviness. And so the like complete opposite, right? Everything that you talk about all the time, which is hey, you need to create an environment and a and an experience that is fun and light and exciting and adventurous. If you're heavy and you're coming out, like that's gonna be hard to that might be hard to do. So, so just recognize that by by not getting into something, by just recreationally doing, that's gonna help you to decompress those emotions.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Absolutely true. Yeah. You you have to women want a lighthearted experience. When when they're in a man's presence, what they they want to they want to be playful, they want to be having fun, they want to feel safe. All of this creates an experience where a woman is feeling lighthearted, she's she's not burdened. And if you're a guy coming in with a lot of heavy emotions, even if you're not explicitly sharing the source of them, but you're wearing them inside of yourself, that's it, it's gonna be an a you're gonna be struggling to give the woman the experience she wants so that she can relax and open up. Yeah.

Core Dating Skills To Rebuild

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Yep. Yeah. So so so it gives you and it gives you time to then the set the second thing I want to bring up is is build your skills. So dating is a skill, guys, and we've been out of this of this game. Well, I mean, probably, and I'll speak from my own experience, but also from experience and talking with other guys, probably you didn't do a great job of dating your wife. Might be one of the reasons why you're not married anymore. So that skill at the very least has been diminished, and recreational dating will give you the opportunity to really start to build those skills again. And you hear, you know, you hear Dallas talking about lots of them uh every time that's that we're we're we're on the show. Yeah. But that that that in and of itself takes time. So it would be the same as going back into the gym and thinking, oh, I'm gonna get you know my my 20-year-old body back from from college where I look so buffed.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

So I'm just gonna give a quick short list off the top of my head. This is not gonna be complete. I'm not even sure these are gonna be the most important ones. So some of the key skills that you gotta have when you're dating and you're just getting to know somebody, let's see, top of the list would definitely be listening skills. You need to be sure that you are listening at least as much as you are talking, preferably a little bit more listening than talking. That's really important. Number two, you need to remember that you don't know this person. This woman might be incredibly attractive to you, and that has a tendency to make us project onto them all kinds of idealistic things. We can't do that. You we have to remember that we don't know who this person is. The projections are fine, but we have to remember we don't really know who they are, and we have to not jump in. That's a huge skill that we have to do. Number three, what is this woman really saying? What is she really communicating? Women, women communicate differently than men do fundamentally. We got to get back in into that and be and learn how to read between some of those lines and see, you know, what what is what the the what is this woman not saying that she's actually saying? There's there's so many pieces to that. And last one I'm gonna throw out there, you gotta learn how to make attractive invitations. A huge part of dating is simply leading by invitation. I'd like to do this. I, you know, how would you like to come with me? And and those invitations have to be invitations that do not have strings attached to them. It takes it there, there is a skill to this, and we're never done. You know, we're gonna get better and better at better at listening effectively, being curious about the person, speaking up with their own voice. I'm gonna throw one more in there. How to be playful with a woman. A lot of a lot of guys struggle with being able to laugh at themselves, being able to be relatable. Women don't trust men that can't laugh at themselves. Women won't relax around men that don't laugh at themselves. This is a skill to know how to do that. And well, the list keeps going. Another skill you got to be able to do is how to insert yourself in in a flirting way, how to be able to push that line, bend the line, step over the line. Not a huge amount, but just enough to read how she responds to it. All of these are skills, and they all have to be going on simultaneously in your dating experience at that table in the space of you know, 20 seconds, you could touch on four or five of those all at the same time. And that's how you have to be doing it if you want to be effective.

Healthy Spinning Plates Explained

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Right. And that's where I feel like the splitting the spinning plates concept is important during when you're recreational dating, because if you are engaging with multiple women, that gives you the ability to interact differently because different women are going to show up, like our like our episode last week, where we talked about how they have their different wants, their different needs, or different ways that they feel comfortable, uh, et cetera, in the dating process. If you are engaging with multiple women, then that gives you the ability to learn how to change, to alter things, to learn new skills, et cetera, because every woman is is very, very different, right? So that's that I feel like that's really important. And what do you what do you think about that? And when we say the spinning plates, again, it's it's it's in I'm calling it engaging with. And that could be going on dates with, that could be having communication, talking with. Maybe you're sleeping with with more than one. I mean, we can get into that uh uh a little bit too, but uh I again there's there's things that ways in which you need to go about that in a proper way and ways that are not a very good way to do that too. So how do you how do you feel about about that, about that concept of of spinning plates in a in a healthy way, not the way that they describe it in some of the books and some of the can you can you lay out for for all of us your understanding, your definition of spinning plates? Well, so what I'm so what I'm so I know the definition that that Tomasi had, which means you don't get pigeonholed down to one woman. You have multiple women that you're dating simultaneously because you know you're a guy, you're kind of this free agent mindset, blah, blah, blah. Okay, that's the that's kind of the the you know the the the pickup artist mindset around it. My my idea of this in our concept of recreational dating is that you like I just said is is that you're engaging multiple women in in learning to understand in in garnering all the benefits that you can by engaging in recreational dating. Some of what we're talking about, some of this emotional decompression, learning better skills. We're gonna talk about you know clarifying your your what you do want, what you don't want. You can't do that by dating one woman or just it communicating with with one woman. It these benefits only happen if you are if you're if you're engaging with multiple women.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Right. Yeah, okay, gotcha. So I would say that the the main benefit to to to the spinning plates, which is your dating to whatever degree that means. You're you're dating, you're engaging, you're communicating, you're you're you're vibing, you're flirting with more than one woman. The main purpose for doing that is be is to acknowledge to yourself as a man that you don't know any of these women well enough yet to commit to them. And and when we're only dating with one woman, and that's because I don't know, I guess we're we're very focused, that that we're we're already putting ourselves into a commitment mindset. And we've done that before we really know who the woman is. And when you go on dates with more than one woman, when you know, you're reminding yourself, hey, I don't know this woman that yet, that well yet. And you know, and then the question is, should I be having sex with this woman that I don't know that well yet? Right. Um, that should be a question that comes right, you know, right behind that. And I'm sure we're gonna talk about that more a little bit later in this episode. Yeah. Um that's but that's the main, that's the main reason for doing this. It's not about I'm trying to play the field, it's not about trying to build your ego up, it's not about taking advantage of women, it's not about having, it's not about being the boss, it's not about playing mind games with other women. There, there is a certain amount of energetic availability that you maintain in yourself when you are dating other women. But all that really is is because you're remembering I don't know this woman that well yet. And as a result, I'm not, I'm not ready to be committed and exclusive with her yet. You need to remind yourself of that because the the flip side to the spinning plate is society tells men that if you're playing the field and having sex with a bunch of women, you're a dog. You know, you're a typical guy, you're just like all the others. And if you want to be a virtuous man, you need to be committed, you need to be monogamous, you need to put all your resources into a woman. And I I do believe that we get to be deeper with a woman when we do that. However, the commitment should come from me inside of myself, inside of my own heart, and my desire for this woman because I know her well. Not because it's coming from the outside and being imposed on me as a um as a dogmatic as a dogmatic assessment of what the what it should be. I'm sorry, there is construction going on outside my window. I really hope listeners can't tell us.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

I do. It's horrible.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

And I'm I feel like I'm I'm stuttering on my words just a little bit because I have people scraping stucco like about three feet from my head right now. And I'm glad no one can hear it. I, however, am like just slightly distracted. So okay, Jude, take the mic, please.

Autonomy, Timing, And Avoiding Rebounds

SPEAKER_00 19:38

No worries, no, no, no. Yeah, I I I I agree a hundred percent. And and I do want to I I do want to emphasize though, guys, that this this time frame in it can last an extended period of time. So maybe you are engaging with multiple women for the first year after divorce, right? In just the context of, again, like we said, getting your skills back. The next one is uh the important one, which is uh and we always talk about uh determining what your values and your beliefs are coming up and figuring out what you envision what you want your life to be like post-divorce. Is that do you then want to have another relationship? Does that relationship a long-term monogamous relationship? Is it a relationship that ends in that results in marriage and you're gonna get remarried again? What you know so that helps you to start refining all of that when you're when you're meeting new people, when you're talking with with women, like about what they're doing and what their life is post-divorce. There's gonna be a ton of women that you're gonna meet that are divorced also, but then you're also engaging in groups like Dallas and and and and ours here at the divorce advocate and talking to other dads that are uh that are divorced that are dating as well. So that helps you to do that. That can be an extended period of time, and not just a year, it could be two years or three years, depending on what you determine as to what you want envision your life post-divorce to to be. So so just know it's a it's a it's a time frame, like this, it's a time frame as far as I'm concerned. That can time frame can be short, but I feel like in the the short term, you need to make sure, because the next the next benefit is that by by engaging more and putting yourself out there more, you're going to avoid that rebound trap, which is a huge, huge problem with with divorced men. And that's because and that's why that is the single reason why the second marriage rate is or divorced, second marriage divorce rate is even higher than the first one, and the third one is even higher than the second and the first one, is because we you get pigeonholed into one person, you have no clue what's going on post divorce, and then you get yourself into a bad situation that then just becomes worse because you have not taken that time.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Yeah. When it comes to time, I think it's really important that we realize we own our time. As a as a man, as a dad, as a as a free agent dating, you own your time. The idea that, oh, well, we've been dating for three weeks, we've been dating for three months, you know, and now here's this expectation. Or, you know, we've we've been, you know, we've kissed, we've, we've, we've gone home and gotten drunk together, or we've had sex together, or what, you know, or we've we've spent a weekend together, you know, all this means that now we we're in a committed relationship. Gentlemen, no, it doesn't. You decide when you're in a committed relationship, and you decide what those, what, you know, you decide what your criteria is for that. Again, don't lie, don't manipulate people, but you you have control of that. And your time frame, the time that you have, is up to you to decide. Do I know this woman yet? You know, how much time do I want to be spending with her? Maintain a strong frame around that. Don't let social pressures of what a quote unquote good man is, you know, push you into something that you don't really want to be committed to and that you don't feel you're fully informed on because you know the woman well enough. And to your point, Jude, that you know yourself well enough. If you just came out of a relationship and there is a lot of emotional exhaling that needs to happen, like you described, you take the time you need to do that. And again, I I think to your point is you have you can't do that entirely alone. You can't do that just by, you know, grieving quietly in your bedroom for six to nine months. Like that's not going to work. You're gonna have to go out, go on a few dates, you know, kiss a few women, probably. You might might even sleep with a few women in order to in order to reset, you know, what you need. Um, you know, the women, they have they have a great line for this. So it's like, yeah, the only way to get over a man is to get under another one. Have you ever heard that one?

SPEAKER_00 24:07

No, I have not heard that one.

Boundaries, Frame, And Consistency

SPEAKER_01 24:09

Uh this this is, I mean, it's it's a I think it's a little dated at this point. But yeah, the only way for, and women say this to each other, the only way to get over a man, meaning the one you were just in a relationship, is to get under another one. And they're not saying that you're that you're that they're going to get attached to that one, but that is sort of like you had the last song playing in your head. Well, this helps to remove that song and just and come back to a truly, you know, kind of quiet place. And it takes the it takes some time, it takes some experience in order to do that. You're in control of that time frame. Do not let somebody else try to dictate it for you.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

Yeah. So you hit on the last two benefit points because you're a master at this and and and you know, but maintaining that autonomy until you decide actually is that's an effort in itself in learning how to keep frame, like you said. You know, when you when you mentioned that, I've got a I've got an old friend, 30 some years, that knew me back when I was an an athlete and in my days of playing in different leagues and and what, and this person still views me as that person, right? Like as how I showed up there, how I showed up in my dating life, etc. And I'm a completely different person now than that. But that's what you know struck me uh when you when you're saying that. That's what I thought of. And and so it's but it's taken me uh a marriage, a divorce, and then a decade plus of dating post-divorce to really learn how to manage that that frame. And this is a really, really good lesson, guys, that will is not only beneficial for your dating life, but is gonna is is going to be beneficial in all of the rest of your life. So it's we're kind of hitting this at the last point, but it might be, it could possibly be the most important one, being able to hold that frame, protect your time, keep your autonomy if that's what you want and you need, so that because you're gonna have social pressure, you're gonna have social pressure from friends, you're gonna have social pressure from from the the women that you're interacting with, you're gonna see it on TV, like you're gonna have social pressure all over the place.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

The biggest social pressure, though, is from childhood. It's from some messages that you were given earlier in life, and and they're and we think it's our voice, but it's not. It these these are how a good man is supposed to behave. This is how what I'm supposed to do. And and you have to date recreationally to some degree to to self-actualize. And by self-actualize, I mean wake up from all of those rules and programming and dogma that we all were given in one form or another. And we have to wake up as adults and we have to sift through it and decide, you know what, this stuff was pretty good. I think I'm gonna hold on to this. And this stuff over here, not so great. I'm gonna let go of that. And the only way to really sift through that is through recreational dating, is through meeting different women so that we can learn something about ourselves. One of the things that that I've been I've been exploring lately is the fact that people tend to carry burdens with them when they're dating. We tend to like have, oh, I don't want to make her feel this way, or I don't know if I say this, you know, and and and they they carry it like a backpack of flipping bricks on their, you know, on themselves. And and that is not a self-actualized man. That is not someone who that that's not the state you want to be in to enter into a relationship. You want to feel like a top performing, free of burden, it self-actualized man when you decide to give your commitment to someone. And in the recreational dating space, that's where we can discover those elements of ourselves. You have to learn, you know, this is a this is a great one. I remember I was reading the book by Henry Cloud, uh boundaries. And you know, boundaries basically boil down to saying no to somebody. And, you know, and in this context, particularly for men, no, I'm not giving you my commitment until I'm ready. No, I'm not going to let you pressure me into feeling guilty about the fact that we had sex once and it wasn't that great, and I'm not really, you know, interested in continuing to date. And and one of the interesting things that Henry Cloud said in his book was you cannot say yes. You can't really say yes until you've really learned how to say no. You have to be able to say no. I'm sorry. Yes, we had sex, but it's not really what I'm looking for. Or, you know, yes, you know, we've been on several dates, but this isn't what I'm after. Or I can see that you're ready to commit. I'm not there yet. This is these are all different versions of me basically saying no, setting a boundary. Yeah. As a man, I I have to be comfortable saying those no's so that when I do say yes to a woman, it is it is a heartfelt, genuine, and free yes.

Tests, Playfulness, And Safety

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Yeah. So so we talk about holding frame a lot, and that's kind of a phrase that is thrown out there. I don't know that we've ever talked about really a definition about holding frame. I think this is an appropriate time. We're we're we're good on time, but establishing and holding frame as a benefit of this. Let's let's dive a little bit deeper into that. I think we're working backwards. Basically, what you just described as boundaries, saying no, knowing what it is that you want and communicating that effectively, that is what holding holding frame is. It's not being swayed by external forces or doing things that you're not comfortable with or that want or fit into your life that's that that then you do and then you might regret or want to, you know, want to undo. Holding frame is being true to that. I think the the the best the best way I can correlate it is is boundaries. Frame is boundaries, right? So the another another word for that.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Well, yeah, so so boundaries, again, for me, I I think the simplest definition is boundaries is saying no to something that you don't want. That's that's half of it. The other half is saying yes to the things that you do want. Yes, I would like to be alone with you. Yes, I want to take you out on another date. Because that is that is granting permission for you to step into a new adventure with someone. Yes, you can go over and talk to that woman in line at the supermarket that you think is super hot. The the yeses are just as important for the masculine frame as the no's are. And and the masculine frame, the absence of that frame means you're just trying to please the world. You're trying to respond to the world and make the world happy and make the world pat you on the head and say, Oh, aren't you a good boy? That's that's you know, and that's being a nice guy. That and that is wandering around and and and you're in a you're you're you're you have no leadership inside yourself. You have no self-leadership when you are when you are trying to please the world. When you are self-actualizing in a, again, in a recreational dating space, when you are figuring out what do I say no to and what do I say yes to, in which situations with whom, and you know, and and all of that's a matter of listening to your heart. When you are operating from an internal self-definition place, that self-definition is your masculine frame as a man.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Yeah, and I love Robert Glover, Dr. Glover, Robert Glover's visualization of this when he describes it as you're taking all of these ingredients in your life, right? And you're putting them into a cake. Like you're building this life that the and your life is the cake, right? You're taking all these different ingredients, you're putting them in there and making this beautiful, delicious, desired life that then somebody's gonna come alongside and be like, wow, yes, like I want some of that. That is, and then and then she's the the the icing, if you will, on on the cake. And that's not derogatory. I've had some women be like, well, it's derogatory. I'm like, hell no, it's not. Why wouldn't you want to be the icing on an amazing, amazing life? That's just that would be fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Yeah, yeah. A woman comes along and says, Let me drape myself all over you because you're such a wonderful strategy. Exactly. Absolutely. Exactly. And and here's part of the reason that that speaks to the instincts in in the feminine side of a woman, which is the really attractive side to a man, is because a man that has a strong frame, she knows what to expect with the man. When she knows that that man says yes according to his heart and no according to his heart, she knows that she can count on that man to show up in a very similar way, day after day, week after week, year after year. Frame, masculine frame is consistency. And women need to know that that man is consistent. If my behavior is just an is just an attempt to please her or it's adapting to her, and I'm not operating from a place of frame, I'm operating from a place of pleasing, the woman knows that she can't really trust me to be the same because her feminine nature is going to be fluid. And if her feminine nature is fluid and then I'm trying to adapt to it, well, we just have a big mess running around in the living room. Yep. The energy is gonna get real, real chaotic. If she knows that she can count on me to say, no, that's not gonna work, or absolutely I want to do that, and you know what? I've got something new, and I want to do that too. If she knows that I'm going to speak from a reliable, consistent place, that that masculine frame, that's gonna allow her to relax because she knows she can count on me independently from her.

Time Costs And Emotional Burnout

SPEAKER_00 34:00

Right. And that's where we get into the now, they call them in the the in in some circles the shit tests, right? The the the tests that women are going to give to men to see if they can say no. And so this is a legitimate thing. Men get all pissy and whiny and like, why is she being a hassle and why she's doing this? Because of what Dallas just said, which is she's testing whether or not she can feel safe and secure with you. And if you can't say no to her, or you know, she knows that you can't say no to the rest of the world. And then that undermines all of her ability to feel safe and secure. She's not going to feel that she can trust you, that you can be good with with her with her feelings and her heart, with her children, maybe, with your finances, with the future, like any of that. So these little shit tests, if you will, welcome these. And if you get them from multiple women, welcome them and learn how to keep that frame, which might be saying, you know, no, we're not gonna do that. Or or the positive, like you said, like, hey, we're gonna go do this. And she might whine about it. Like, I can't tell you the number of times I've gotten like like a oh, we're gonna do that, and then afterwards, like, oh, that was actually a lot of fun. I'm like, yeah, no shit. I know. It's just fun. Like, I like to have fun. Let's go have, let's go have some some fun. So it's kind of that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Yeah. So women, women, and again, they're they're most of the time they're not doing it consciously. Some women are, they're they're kind of diabolical that way. Some women most women are not doing it consciously.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

How they're wired for it's how they're wired to stay to stay alive through through the years, right?

SPEAKER_01 36:58

Or through the centuries. Can I trust this man to be reliable? Can I trust this man to be what he he presents himself to be? Um yeah, when when a woman is doing that, okay. I I think the question is, yes, uh okay, well, there's so many things. One is she's not gonna do that to a man she's not interested in, period. Full stop. She's not gonna bother. She's like, I'm not interested in this guy. Why would I engage? So she's if she's testing you, that's a good sign that she's trying to dig a little deeper and see whether, see whether or not she can open up some more. Um, also, with those shit tests, if she just keeps doing it constantly and constantly and constantly, she might not realize it. Go ahead and set a boundary around that and go, hey, I feel like you're busting my balls here a little bit. You know, can we take a break and shift it over to something playful and see whether or not she shifts? Because it should be a balanced mix of some of the more, you know, intense, serious connection pieces and some more just enjoying time and space together. The other reason, which I think is which I think is behind uh underneath a lot of what you're saying is every woman wants, you know, she wants to be free, but she knows that she doesn't have herself entirely figured out. That that's part of the feminine space. She wants to know that it's safe for her to be messy when she's with you. Do I always have to look perfect? Do I always have to have my makeup and hair done? Do I always have to be dolled up? Do I always have to know what I'm thinking? Do I always have to, you know, you know, keep, you know, keep a calm, cool, collected, or can I be a little crazy sometimes? Can I be a little messy? And if you're like, baby, I've got all the masculine strength and frame in the world, I would like nothing better than for you to be able to let out your crazy with me because that's where your energy is.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Right. And that's where learning those skills that we talked about a little bit earlier around how do you do that? How do you manage that? How do you not show up butthurt? How do you deal with her her ever-changing emotions and make her feel and or a relational dynamic? What you just discussed described, like if she's always busting your balls, like that might she may have just learned that. It might be a relational dynamic that she learned and was never pointed out to her. And and you might point it out now what you point out and what she does with it, then it's on her, right? And that might be also where you need the whole frame and say, this is just not working for me. And you've got to be able to say no, and you gotta be able to walk away. That's the that's the big thing.

Curiosity Over Cynicism

SPEAKER_01 39:25

Absolutely. And everything you described, that this is recreational dating. Yeah, this is dating as a game, not in not in a manipulative game, but it's a game as in we don't know how this is gonna go. And you're, you know, and you're flexing a little bit of frame. You see how she responds to it. Oh, we're not a good fit. Oh, hey, we are a good fit. You actually like that. That turned you on. We're gonna make out some more. You this is all part of the recreational dating. You're figuring yourself out, but you need to see, and this is again where you have to do it on your timeline. I don't know this woman that well yet. I don't know if I'm ready to be committed. It's but if you see it like a game, like a puzzle, and you know, this is particularly applicable when you're dating women that are younger than you, uh, particularly if they're, you know, if they grew up with a lot more social media than you did, which I know is the case with me, uh, when I date a woman that's 10 years or more younger than me, they're coming from a very different place. They have a different set of social rules and expectations than I do. Yeah. And and so when I express my yeses and no's, my frame, and I see how how they respond to it, or I get their their little test that they're throwing at me. Right. Hammering is happening again. Sorry, guys. Just I'm gonna try to block it out.

SPEAKER_00 40:41

Hopefully, you can't hear it. You're doing a good job. You're doing a good job.

SPEAKER_01 40:44

Thank you. When that's happening, you have to realize that, particularly with a younger woman, you're older. One of the benefits of being with an older person is okay, they got an older body, but they should hopefully be bringing more maturity to the table. Gentlemen, if you're the older man in this dynamic, you have to to bring some patience. You have to you have to bring some structure, you and you, and then you have to see what does she do with that? And that all takes recreational time together to see before you before you decide to lock it down.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Yep. And so that leads me into some of the detriments which you talked, which you just mentioned, which is like there's a it takes a lot of time to have to engage with multiple women. And I don't know about you, but I'm at the age where it's like, this is exhausting. This is it could literally feel like a like a second job.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

Yeah, and and the better you're doing it, the more exhausting it is. Please continue.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

Well, yeah, no, exactly, right? So because everything that you describe and and how you describe showing up and whether we want to use the analogy of Dr. Glovers and taking all taking everything into account, you've got to you've got to figure out all those ingredients in your life first. And then you've got to be able to create the environment with them, and then you need to be able to offer them out, and then you've got to mitigate all of that with somebody like there is a lot that goes to it, that goes into it, right? If you listen to Dallas every week, you know that, right? So just show up.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Can we still call it recreational dating at this point when it's this much work?

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Right. Well, it's yeah, it's a hobby, right? It becomes a a second job/slash hobby. But if you're going to be it's a passion project, it's a passion project.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

It's a passion project.

Kindness, Clarity, And Letting Go

SPEAKER_00 42:40

My dating is a passion project. I'm gonna try that. Yeah, let me try to reframe that one in my head. No, I completely forgot what I was gonna say, but good. My work here is done. Yes, you threw me off. But but but that does take a lot. Oh, I remember I was gonna say, but but that takes a lot of time. So when you're when you're doing that, then eventually if you if you're like me, or at least most of the dads, you you get to a point where you're like, okay, I've kind of got this dialed in. I'm feeling more comfortable. This is this is the point then where you get to, okay, I've I've I've met somebody then that I really want to focus this attention into. And so that's then the the benefit. The detriment is it takes it, it might take a lot of time. So maybe figure that out. Like maybe figure out how to to to to do that, how to manage your time. It's gonna help you with what it's ultimately gonna lead to is oh, okay, now I have all this time, I can refine everything that I that I've done, everything. So I'm trying to basically, Dallas, flip this as yes, the the detriment is it is a huge time suck if you're gonna be engaged multiple women. But the but it will it will help you to refine yourself into knowing how to focus all those energies if you're doing it well and right into one good, long-lasting, healthy, excellent, beautiful relationship.

SPEAKER_01 44:12

Yeah, it it's true. It it takes a huge amount of time and effort. It's it's a bit of a a passion project, you know. And the original meaning of the word passion is to suffer. So yeah, you're suffering a bit in the process of it. One of the things that I that I'd like to point out is when, oh shoot, I thought the damn scraping outside my window is making it really hard to focus today. When you are shoot, I'm sorry, please continue talking, June.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

But you know, to to just carry that a little bit further, though, then because that is takes uh a lot of effort, there is a there is a semblance of emotional burnout that that can happen. Because even if you even if it's recreational, casual, whatever you're calling it, emotions are are still in involved, and you're dealing, look, you're dealing with in in in some way a relationship, whatever that is, if you're calling it recreational relationship, casual, whatever, yeah, you are still dealing, there are emotions you're gonna deal with the ship tests, you're gonna deal with flakiness, you're gonna deal with overbearing, like you're gonna be dealing with that stuff. So there can be huge amounts of emotional burnout. And if you haven't done what we talked about early, which is do the emotional decompression, understand where. you're at, get your life together, where you're feeling good mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually, that can really, really be a just a bigger drain on yourself.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

Yeah. Yeah, you're you're you're very you're very true about that. Yeah, you there is an emotional drain, there's an energetic drain, particularly if you also have children that you're taking care of. I'm, you know, you you you have very finite resources. Distraction. Yeah. Yeah. Also also getting jaded, which is which I think in this context means I know how it works and it's not working. You know, I I I figured out the rules, I know who I am, but all these women are not giving me what I'm looking for. Yeah. Okay. That that's bringing no energy to the table because you're now you've you've quote unquote solved this the the equation but the solution you have ain't a winning solution. Yeah right and and my you know my no my my solution to that problem is you have to keep embracing the fact that you are right at the edge of discovering things that you've never learned before about women but especially about yourself. You have to realize that like you don't have it figured out are you kidding me if as a man you were saying you've got women and dating figured out and I hear plenty of guys say this no no you have you've calcified in your mind you do not have a beginner mindset. You do not have curiosity and women don't want to be with a man that that that is that sure of themselves.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

Yeah curiosity I love that word that is a great word to keep in your in your in your mind when you're when you're doing this that everything like and and every day and even if you're even if even if it feels like oh like whatever emotion you're having having curiosity can completely change the mindset of everything that you're doing.

Dad Priorities And Focus

SPEAKER_01 47:23

And and you want to be curious about women you want to be curious about what's going on you want to try to have compassion for what they're going through you know online dating all that kind of thing. You want to have curiosity and compassion and all that. However, that is not where most of your curiosity should be most of your curiosity should be what do I not know about Dallas yet? What do I not know about myself yet? That is a man who is constantly unearthing fresh energy, fresh discoveries that every woman comes to and goes wow you really are discovering new sides of yourself. I would love to make a life with a man like that. Right. And you can and you can tell this by by sort of observing how much of your attention is external on women how much you're talking about oh well she's doing this and they're doing that and and you know they're like this and and notice I'm putting all the pronouns on her and them and I'm not wondering well okay so last night at the date okay she she whatever whatever whatever but what did I not do? How did I pivot? How did I show up? How did I get knocked out of my frame? How did I when I ask those questions about myself I can't get jaded. And when I ask those questions about myself I can't get emotionally drained because I naturally go back into an internal self-reflective and cocoon state where the energy comes back up and I'm not going to be like oh well I got to go find you know well where are all the women at I need to go find somebody and I need to go do it. It's like no no no no I had an opportunity and I blew it big time. I need to figure out how to do it. So that's the most important place to be curious if you want to be coming from a self-sustaining and rejuvenating, making it young again in the energy that you're bringing to the table.

SPEAKER_00 49:14

Right which which goes to what we always talk about the the the mutual desire that men and women have probably the the one single top thing that we all want and agree on is some adventure in in in life and and wanting some sort of adventure. And by you by you doing that like you being curious and at the edge of life all the time that's very that's very attractive to attract somebody to adventure and it's fun for for yourself. And to your point if to to your point about if you're not self-reflecting if you're not looking it's the it's the same in business and and guys don't translate this and I don't like I don't either right so don't like don't like don't think that I'm figuring this out everyone stop listening to Jokes. Yeah yeah yeah yeah is in in business when we're not getting the result we want we look we work backwards and we look like what are we doing not to get the results we don't do that so much in our in our dating lives it's more the opposite we're like what the hell's wrong with them I'm already the man what do you mean I need to change something yeah mansplain yeah like exactly so if you're doing that just use that same kind of mindset of okay well I you know she's not attractive and then obviously sometimes they're just not attracted it's not working out but if you're I mean if you're just constantly not getting any kind of getting the right feedback that you want.

Learn About Women, Learn About Yourself

SPEAKER_01 50:39

And and guys there's no upper limit to the response that you could get from a woman. It's like you know it it there is no upper limit. You can get better and better you can get more effective at this job you can you can get you know to continue the metaphor higher profits even from one single woman you can get higher and higher profits in in your endeavor. Okay I want to come back to to something else and I I think you're completely right that both men and women want to experience adventure absolutely and I believe in an episode a while back we talked about the differences between those two. Yep I forgot I don't remember what the study was but I remember hearing about they were they were asking men and women about what they find most attractive in the opposite sex. And of course no big you know no big surprise men are attracted to what they see you know and women it's like a big weird cloud of stuff you know that nobody can figure out. However what was interesting about this study was there was actually one trait that was the most attractive to both men and women and it was the same trait. The trait was kindness okay if you're you know as a man when you meet a woman and she is kind there is a certain level of attraction no matter how you know how she looks you know everything when she is kind to us there is a certain level of attraction that kicks in it's the same for women and I wanna I want to point this out from a recreational dating point of view. One of the default states that you want to be in to maintain your attraction is kindness. And part of that kindness is you know treating someone with respect. It's being honest with them. But to tie it in with the masculine frame clear is kind. I'm going to tell you what my no's are I'm gonna tell you what my yeses are and I'm saying this because kindness is part of my frame and part of my strength. I want you to know exactly the man that you're dealing with and I'm gonna provide this clarity so you can say yes or no to what I'm presenting. And this is what keeps it all clear and clean. And it it also is what untethers us from these again I I feel like the hardest part about recreational dating for men is this expectation for us to commit. And if we don't we're somehow being sleazy we're somehow being being naughty and behind the scenes. Guys you're not and when you are clear and kind that way you are you are unburdening yourself from that from all of that baggage. You set it down and go no I'll tell you when I'm ready and if you don't want to have sex if you don't want to sleep together if you don't want to kiss you can set whatever boundaries you want on your end woman that I'm on a date with and I will set mine as well. And we'll wait until our boundaries are actually where you know until we we until the recreational part gets to a place where we're ready to to open up further.

SPEAKER_00 53:26

Right and that and that leads to a potential drawback of misleading somebody else but also the the kindness that I think you're describing too might be having to stop seeing somebody that has absolutely you've that that you've 100% that you've determined is has more feelings for you. And like you said before women don't all they're not always in tune with what's going on and what their feelings are just because they emote doesn't mean that they've figured out how to sort through them and communicating etc kindness in this circumstance might be hey like it's it's clear that we're in different places and we should stop seeing somebody so so that's that also is you know not misleading somebody.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

And there and there's a sacrifice that you make as a man when you do that because you know you because you know you've got energetic you know maybe sexual availability there and for you to say you know what I'm gonna hand I'm gonna give that back to you and I'm gonna you know and I'm gonna call this quits because I because I feel like I'm I'm taking more than I'm giving back. But again you know and you are being kind to her you are you are being a good man but the real question is for yourself do you want you know because that involvement with that person is occupying your attention it's occupying your creativity. You have to ask yourself do I really want to have this attachment with this woman it has to be coming from a first person place. A man with a strong frame is not going around trying to say oh well what's the right thing I should do with this woman or that woman the man's saying this woman isn't the right woman for me. I have to do the hard thing and I have to let it go. That's you're and I'm doing it from a first person priorities not I'm not setting her first. I'm setting myself first when I do it.

SPEAKER_00 55:16

Right, right. Because and and that's the the next thing on my list it distracts from our life our building of that of that of of all those ingredients in our in our life that it's going to create that awesome life that ultimately then somebody's going to be attracted to that you can have that that long-term relationship that goes deeper much deeper than you can when you're doing the the the the relational the relational or the recreational dating.

SPEAKER_01 55:43

As much as you might be able to date more than one woman recreationally you know throughout a week or a month you can only be on a date with one woman at a time that seat only has one butt in it. And if you have the wrong butt in that seat you can't get the right butt in that seat. So you have to you have to prune you you have to say no and it hurts to do it.

Hard-Won Lessons And Lifelong Practice

SPEAKER_00 56:06

Right and and we are designed for relationship and to be in relationship. It is just how biologically we have been created in order to continue the species and so guys we're we are designed for that so it's okay but it's okay also okay for you to take time and not want to do that. And that can be for a very long time that can be for years guys if that's what is what you've decided what you've come up with with for your for your vision post divorce it might be because you have obligations to your kids which is a another drawback right the the the dad factor we've got we have a lifestyle and an obligation with with our kiddos and so engaging with with multiple women can be very it can it can really skew your focus in your presence with with your kiddos like if you're distracted and texting like all that stuff. And also the the second part of that is not doing the the work that you need to be doing on yourself to not only be a good partner but also be a good dad also right like this is this is all see Dallas what I find is the biggest challenge for for dads is in in just dating it's it all is inner corollary right like it it it all impacts everything else and I think we get as dads because we've been in a monogamous relationship and a marriage for so long we start dating and it's like oh man it's so confusing getting out and then trying to like play the field if you will but recreational date we're designed to want to be locked into one person. We're definitely not ready for it. You need the recreational recreational date at least for a time being so you know it just gets it gets to be hard to sort which is why you go to Dallas.

SPEAKER_01 57:59

Yeah exactly and and if you and the the thing to remember when you're dating recreationally again try to try to try to get all the voices of you know rights and wrongs you know shut up inside of you. It's very hard to get those to to stop talking realize that while you're dating recreationally you should be learning the entire time you should be learning you should be learning about women I'd say maybe that's about 30 40% but 60 70% should be you learning about yourself. And you're you're and what you're learning about is what is this masculine frame inside of me? What do I say yes to and what do I say no to and when you're learning about that to your point it informs all the other areas of your life as you're learning these things about yourself you get to share it with your children. It'll hopefully improve you know how you navigate you know the co-parenting with your ex. It it will it will improve all the areas of your life and if you approach recreational dating not about not from a game point of view of how do I get as many notches in my bedpost as I can that's a byproduct not a goal.

SPEAKER_02 59:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 59:04

You know, you it and instead you look at it as what do I what do I not understand and you know that I need to understand about women and especially what do I need to understand about myself and about what I'm saying yes to and no to in life. That learning process that is going to keep you energized that is going to keep you coming back in an interesting hungry place and it's going to prevent you from getting jaded because you feel like you're just going around a circle and there's something wrong with the world rather than you.

Coaching, Community, And Live Events

SPEAKER_00 59:30

Yeah. I want to I want to finish up with just a little bit of like personal sharing about this because what we're describing here sounds so like so easy guys and just go and do it. And so I've been I've been divorced now 12 years and I can I can say that when I got divorced I was codependent. I was massively code uh a codependent person and so not understanding that that relational dynamic getting into uh relationships dating uh exclusively dating lots of women spinning lots of plates like doing everything basically everything wrong right like reading books and listening to blogs and and and all the other advice and trying trial and error and everything it was it just took time guys and what Dallas describes as once once I started to focus internally which was like look guys it was like four or five years down the road like I just was a cluster that is when things started to shift and started to change not only in not only in my dating life in my relationship with my children in my work life everywhere else and and and making that shift then things really started to really just started to open up and and change but even even now after a decade of of this like I'll talk we'll talk with with with Dallas and I'll think like hey like I need to to to do this this would be a great thing to model for my daughters in how I'm showing up in in dating or what I'm sharing with them or or what I'm doing. So this is this is this is a a a lifelong project guys this there's no goal line uh it's not the goal of you're gonna get laid or you're gonna get married or whatever it is it's like an an evolving lifelong thing. So if you can keep that curiosity like Dallas said and and then and then you know reflect on that and and keep that mindset that is going to be your best best bet.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:45

Yeah you know the the principles are really they're they're they're not that hard to grasp they're not that hard to to write down. There aren't really that many of them when it when you come right down to it. But just because you know the principle doesn't mean that you execute it as well as you could the execution is is an entire lifetime. And again even if you're executing really well there is no upper limit to how well you could be executing. And to your point there is no end to all of the different ways that these that these principles get interwoven into into the recreational dating and then later into the relationship. And thank thank goodness it's like that because it would get boring if we ever got to the end of the road. It just like what what would be the interest what would you know what would be what would be you know it going through struggle enhances the enjoyment when we get to the thing we're trying to get to happiness is enhanced when you have to struggle to get there. So guys you know work on getting the principles but real you know the you know unburdening myself in the dating process that's one of the things I'm personally working on currently in my dating life is to show up in ways where where when I'm with a woman I feel completely unburdened in being honest with her about whatever it is that I'm thinking and feeling really hard to do. Even though I've had the principle for a I mean I've had the principle for you know decades in my head trying to execute how you know how good can I be in the execution there's no limit man there's no limit and there's no end to the opportunities to keep doing it better.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:24

Right and but and and I will say engage somebody like Dallas that can help you cut that time frame don't don't do what I did like don't be a cluster for for so so long and then muddle through it in the dark engage with Dallas get involved with the the the the group so that you can you know Dallas says stuff to me every single week we talk offline and like we'll trade text sometimes but but he's always got something and he'll point out and it's just like yeah yeah yeah like your language or you know or or even a smart ass comment but yeah but it's but it's true but there's truth in it and it and it's helpful in reflection and learning.

Growth, Ratings Ask, And Closing

SPEAKER_01 1:04:08

So so Dallas how do the guys get involved with the the the the group you got a meeting tonight uh tonight which is going to be we're recording but you have them every month how can they get involved in that and then we do have our this week we've this Thursday we've got our in live in person live one uh coming up at the the view house too yep yep looking forward to the view house looking forward to seeing all the guys in person that we've been seeing online looking forward to being out in the field uh in the wild you know and um really you know being able to on the prowl baby on the prowl be able to do some somatic stuff working with men's postures their breathing you know eye contact all the you know all those body language pieces that communicate the majority of of what we're saying to a person so looking forward to that yeah you know jump on over to blackboxdating.com every Wednesday night we have a mastermind session that we do a whole new topic strategy talk there's a great sense of community there really really love it the best the best part about about having coaching and Jude I'm I'm I know you do this with your with your clients as well is we got to go through the struggle one way or another. But when you have the right coaching it changes your perception of it. You shift you shift the mindset you're doing the tactics differently but more than anything you're seeing the whole thing differently and that changes your experience of it. It goes from a frustrated draining difficult experience to one where where you can laugh about it some more and you can see it more like a like a like a fruitful experience on your way to finding what it is that you really want.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:40

Yeah it's all it it can be a lot a lot of of fun being out there. I mean women are awesome and it's so much fun meeting women and dating women like if you got that mindset it can really be pretty cool and fun. So so Thursday guys if you want to if you want if you're in the Denver metro area here you want to come and spend some time with Dallas which I highly recommend check out the divorcedadvocate.com we just redesigned the website so I got to tell you how to get to the event page you got to scroll all the way down to the footer now and go to the event page and then you can find all the information then you can add all the events to to your calendar there. And then also just a last ask we've been growing apparently across the across the globe but guys keep sharing this keep tuning in give us a star rating or even better a comment it really helps other dads to to find this and and hopefully uh suffer through through an hour of uh us once uh once a week shout out shout out to all you Kiwis for listening really appreciate it thanks for sending in the questions please keep them coming it's it's really fun to be able to speak directly to the audience uh the way we got to this week thank you Jude looking forward to next week absolutely