Eggers, Meyer: Making Progress, Carefully

Genetic progress happens faster today than it did decades ago. Is there an ideal pace?

Two Angus producers discuss how they use embryo transfer (ET), artificial insemination (AI) and natural service in their breeding programs, and how they draw on genomic and phenotypic data to make their selections in the first place.

“A really good breeder told me about 30 years ago … part of this thing is getting there as fast as you can. He said, just as importantly, never back up. So, you know, try to balance risk and reward,” says Ben Eggers, Sydenstricker Genetics.

He and Darin Meyer, De-Su Angus, cover a lot of ground in this one.

HOSTS: Mark McCully, Brett Spader, Miranda Reiman 

GUESTS: Ben Eggers, Sydenstricker Genetics; Darin Meyer, De-Su Angus

GUEST BIOS:
Ben Eggers has been involved in breeding registered Angus cattle since he acquired his first 4-H project heifer in 1964. He was active in 4-H, FFA and junior Angus, and as he grew up, became one of the youngest members of the Missouri Beef Cattle Improvement Association, while performance testing was in its infancy. He has worked for several Angus breeders through the years, and has been at Sydenstricker Genetics, Mexico, Mo., for 40 years this month. His wife, Darla, handles all the data submission for SydGen. He is a past president of Missouri Cattlemen’s Association, the Beef Improvement Federation and the American Angus Association.

Darin Meyer grew up on a diversified farm in northeast Iowa, where he gained experience with both dairy cattle and commercial beef cattle. Early on he showed an interest in the genetic side of the business, and his dad allowed him to take ownership in their breeding programs. Since then, he and his family have expanded the dairy business and added a registered Angus herd, forming De-Su Angus with locations in New Albion and Fremont, Iowa, which is the former Summit Crest Iowa farm. They have 1,500 cows, and focus on creating the highest $C cattle, while maintaining function. A crew of dedicated employees do everything from cattle care, reproductive ultrasound, artificial insemination to an in-house embryo transfer flush program.

Related Reading:  

http://www.angusjournal.com/articlepdf/0322-et.pdf 

http://www.angusjournal.com/articlepdf/ararecommodity.pdf 

Don't miss news in the Angus breed. Visit www.AngusJournal.net and subscribe to the AJ Daily e-newsletter and our monthly magazine, the Angus Journal.

Transcript

Miranda Reiman (00:03):

Welcome to the Angus Conversation, an Angus Journal podcast. I'm your host, Miranda Reiman, and today co-hosts Mark McCully and Brett Spader. We had a a really good discussion where we talked a lot about how to make progress quickly and maybe some unintended consequences of that. So, Brett, this is a conversation that you have with breeders really all the time.

Brett Spader (00:25):

Yeah, absolutely. Almost a daily basis. I think we, as Angus breeders always grapple with this, you know, how do we keep pushing things forward, improving the population, ultimately improving the, the livelihoods of those that, that select genetics from the Angus breed and all the way down to the consumer, and how do we keep things moving forward at every step of the way? And also, at the same time, discipline was a really interesting word that a theme all the way through this. And, and, you know, it's easy to say discipline. It's harder to identify how to have discipline, and it's great to hear some really important things that these guys brought up in their own operations on ways you can physically have discipline around genetic advancement. Get a lot of the good as well as understand that hey, there, there's always a potential downfall to any balanced approach and ways to safeguard against those things, whether you're thinking about which heifers to retain, whether you're thinking about philosophies around sire selection, and certainly when it comes to marketing time, you know, and being able to look back and know that you made really great decisions on all areas of focus and ultimately still get at what you need.

(01:37):

I know, Mark, uh, you had shared some really great data with us here recently that was very telling of where we've been in the Angus breed, especially in terms of sire selection and, and, and generational turnover. Tell us a bit about that.

Mark McCully (01:51):

Yeah, as we closed out the fiscal year, it's always, uh, interesting to go back and kind of look at, at what our breeders are using, what bulls, uh, represented our top, uh, our, our, our top bulls for registration and, and kind of look at some of those, uh, statistics. And, and one of those things in particular, looking at the age of bulls, I, I think that's something as we get into this discussion of making genetic progress, I know, uh, a, a discussion I have with breeders all the time, as you say, is, is how fast should we be going and, and using young or less proven kind of animals. What was interesting is, is last year in our fiscal year, about 9.9, 10% basically of all of our registrations were, uh, represented by top 10, by the top 10 sires. Uh, I, I went back to 2000 just as a point of reference just to see how has that changed in the last 20 years.

(02:43):

In fact, it really hasn't changed much at all. That was 11% back in, in 2000, if I looked at bulls that, uh, had sires that had 500 progeny recorded or more, last year we had 74 sires that had 500 progeny more. That was 64 back in 2000. So if, if anything, maybe just a little more sampling or a little more diversity of sires, maybe not necessarily bloodline, but, but sires. And then when I looked at the percentage of our registrations last year that were sired by bulls that were five years of age or younger last year, that was 74.3% of our registrations back in 2000, that was 72%. So again, maybe not as, uh, I was kind of surprised. I kind of expect us to see maybe just a little bit more, uh, of a shift, uh, in our, in our numbers. But that really didn't play out. But, uh, it really led, uh, to, uh, this, this whole topic, I think meant, meant, uh, made for another just outstanding, uh, discussion, understanding philosophies, couple guys and Ben and Darin, that, that have maybe a little different perspective on some of these things, and it made for what I think our listeners are really gonna enjoy.

Miranda Reiman (03:55):

Welcome to the Angus Conversation. I'm your host Miranda Reiman, and today I'm here with co-host Brett Spader. Hey, Brett. Hi.

Brett Spader (04:02):

Good morning. How's it going today?

Miranda Reiman (04:05):

Excellent. And co-host Mark McCully. We've got a bonus

Mark McCully (04:07):

Two co-hosts. It's a gonna be a fun conversation. Good morning.

Miranda Reiman (04:11):

Good morning. And we have two guests with us today, and I'm gonna let them introduce themselves just a little bit. I guess we'll start with you, Ben. I've known Ben for, for quite a number of years, but why don't you go ahead and give us the specific details, Ben.

Ben Eggers (04:25):

Okay. Um, my name's Ben Eggers and, uh, I'm a past president of American Angus Association, actually, and I've been, uh, um, employed here at Sydenstricker Genetics at Mexico, Missouri for 40 years this month. So,

Brett Spader (04:40):

Congratulations.

Miranda Reiman (04:42):

It's a big milestone. And Darin, you would be a, a new face to me on the podcast, but looking forward to getting to know you better. So, Darin, why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself.

Darin Meyer (04:52):

Yes, hi, I'm Darin Meyer. Um, owner operator, manager, De-Su Angus, um, kind of a, I don't know, fledgling operation, so to say, compared to like Ben, 40 years. But, uh, we were, we had a commercial herd of beef cows for my entire life. Then five, six years ago, we got into the registered Angus. Um, currently we sit northeast Iowa and actually southeast Iowa too. We've got two different locations.

Miranda Reiman (05:27):

Excellent. Well, glad to have you guys both, both on the podcast, and I appreciate you taking the time to visit with us.

Mark McCully (05:33):

Ben, maybe Ben, would, you know, as you think about the, your breeding philosophy, you've been breeding Angus registered Angus cattle for a long time. Yeah. Maybe just give the listeners a little insight of, of when you, when you making mating decisions, kind of your, what is your bigger breeding philosophy at, uh, at, uh, at your outfit?

Ben Eggers (05:51):

Yeah. Well, on, on individual meeting decisions, I actually, uh, evaluate all the EPDs and what I know about the female herself, uh, to try and correct any traits that, uh, that she needs improvement on. First and foremost. Um, in terms of generalities, um, we, we use a mix of, of some young unproven, uh, sires and, uh, and, and several really high accuracy bulls, though, to keep things kind of in, in, in tandem there. Um, and, and not, you know, I, I know years ago I heard the philosophy, well, you, you, you mate the old proven cows to the hot young bulls, and then the, the heifers, you mate all to proven bulls. And I wouldn't say I, I necessarily run with that, but, uh, but I do like to keep it a bit of a mix. Um, really good breeder told me about 30 years ago, uh, you know, I said, Part of this thing is getting there as fast as you can. He said, just as importantly, never back up. So, you know, try to try to balance, risk and reward. Yeah.

Mark McCully (07:01):

Yeah. Darin, how about you as, as you, uh, think about or would describe your, your breeding philosophy of what you're, uh, what, what you're, uh, getting done at your outfit?

Darin Meyer (07:11):

Well, it's constantly evolving, obviously. Um, well, in fact, at the beginning of it, it was more of a focus on $B, but as $C came into there and kind of getting a little bit more all encompassing, it's been kind of a $C thing as far as picking bulls that we're using females, we're using, we're using genomics at a genomic level as a base and then going and sorting out a phenotype out of the animals that meet that baseline. Predominantly, mostly all young sires at this point. They're getting used trying to probably hedge the risks, so to say, by not going all in on a certain bull, limiting the amount of pregnancies you make out of another bull, and then finding another one that kind of meets your criteria and using him and make a set amount of pregnancies and move on from him. Again, as far as the matings themselves, individuality, I usually start out with an animal's worst two traits and made off of that, the guys kind of look at things as the, a cow is never as good as her best trait. She's only as good as her worst trait, cuz that's kind of makes her fault there. So that's kind of my focus on the matings.

Brett Spader (08:27):

Absolutely. Well, that's interesting, certainly to all of us on this and many of our listeners, I, we pulled a quote out of your catalog, Darin, I wondered if you'd expand on this a little bit. Uh, you know, the quote, read as far as genetics, pick what you want and know what your operation needs. Have an honest conversation with yourself, and at the end of the day, accept what you want and be disciplined about it. Select for that time and time again, and you'll get it. And so I think that speaks to, uh, certainly what we're on here to talk about a little bit. Maybe Darin, expand on that a little bit. Tell us, tell us a little bit more about that thought process and especially how you communicate that to potential clients and existing clients.

Darin Meyer (09:08):

Well, as a breeder or a commercial producer, I think that message holds true for both of us. At the end of the day, you gotta sit out or you really gotta think of what you want as far as your individual operation that works for you, whether it's a commercial guy or a seedstock guy. And at that point, if you are confident what you identified, I guess the part of that quote about knowing what you want and keep moving forward and all that, that's kind of about this conversation is once you identify that, be disciplined and don't waiver back and forth because as you waiver you, you're not pinpointing on that focus. You don't, you don't get as far down the road as you need to as quickly. And if you're gonna do that, once you identify that, if you keep putting those kind of genetics in success of generations, you're gonna have a, a very homozygous type animal out there, whether they say you're commercial guy or a purebred guy.

Brett Spader (10:10):

Yeah. And a quick follow up to that, I, I, a quick question, I guess for you Darin as well, in previous calls that you and I had had, I had not realized your, your very extensive commercial background on your operation. So I'd be curious to hear how those layers overlap, you know, how those experiences within your commercial herd and and experience have ultimately led you to take this, this, this high velocity, but high disciplined approach to genetic advancement.

Darin Meyer (10:38):

Well, I think it serves to an advantage just because, for lack of better terms, there's been some very expensive lessons learned over the years on the experience that I have within the dairy genetics and then also the background that I have in the beef genetics. I can look at as far as a genetic platform or idea that did not work a theory for lack of better terms there too, that didn't work in a breeding scheme in the dairy thing, and used those philosophies or lessons that I had learned there back in beef things. And I could in integrate what it takes to run a good beef cow herd. I mean, I go back, when I was 19 years old, I was running 300 commercial cows. It's the only way I could get into farming was renting pastures and buying cows. And you learn in a hurry that some of those invisible cows are your most profitable cows.

(11:31):

It's the cows that do the thing, They're the middle of the road and they're the ones that get pregnant and they might not have the biggest calf every year, but they got one of the bigger calves and they got one of the ones that are born at the front side of the breeding season every year with no troubles, <laugh>, mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So you look at all that and kind of integrate all the places and things that I've done on all the livestock areas that I've been involved in. You put it together and you can kind of make some pretty well disciplined decisions.

Miranda Reiman (12:03):

Mark and I are both nodding because we just did a maternal episode, our last Angus conversation, and that was literally what both Chad Denowh and, uh, Joe Lowe had said something, I think the quote was, Your best cows are the ones that you don't even know she's in the herd until she's six. Right. Isn't that what it was?

Darin Meyer (12:03):

Mark McCully (12:22):

Ben, one of the things I've, I've, and I'm not calling you old at all here, but you've been at this for a while, right? And you've been, you've been breeding Angus cattle for a long time. You know, one of the things I've always admired about you as a as truly as a breeder, there's, there's always been a a, a clear program of what you're doing. How, But, but that takes discipline and I think, I think Darin spoke to that as well. And I think that's, to me, one of the really hard things. And maybe cuz I have "something shiny" disease, right? I get distracted by something new, you know? But how does, how do you stay disciplined, uh, with that breeding philosophy when, as the marketplace changes, as you see things out there, What's what's been your, what's been your secret to doing that?

Ben Eggers (13:02):

Probably the, the experience. I can't remember that, uh, that exact quote, you know, but, uh, but you learn by your previous mistakes and I've, I've made enough to, uh, to be over a lot of that by now. You know, um, the, uh, talking about customers and that kind of thing too, and, and, and some of the things there, uh, uh, that Darin brought up, sure ring true with me there too. Uh, you know, somebody asked me, Well, what's, what's Lot 40 worth? Well, lot 40 is worth whatever you can, or she's worth a certain amount depending on what you can merchandise her progeny for. You know, that's what it really boils down to. And, and, and, uh, I, I urge people to breed the kind of cattle that they like because they can therefore merchandise them and market them better.

(13:58):

Then they can, even if it's quote popular, uh, you know, if they don't like what they're doing, they're not gonna be able to market those cattle well. So, uh, everyone needs, needs to make the kind of animals that, that they're trying to do. And, you know, our main focus here, uh, Missouri's a a cow calf state, and it's a sale barn state, most of these calves are gonna gonna be in a feedlot by the time they're say nine months old. You don't background cattle on Missouri fescue. You don't, you don't, you do it one time or twice, but ...

Mark McCully (14:27):

<laugh>

Miranda Reiman (14:29):

talk about,

Ben Eggers (14:33):

Uh, so, so, so those calves are, are maybe gonna be a little bit different than they might be in some other parts of the country, you know, uh, because they're, they're gonna have to hit the feedlot, uh, going and, and they can't shut down too quick. And, uh, and at the end of the day, the only premiums out there are the, uh, really on, on, on the carcass side of things. Other than that, it's, it's all efficiency and fertility, of course, but, there are premiums to be gained by, uh, by retaining ownership or even by just, establishing a relationship with whoever's buying your calves and,  being able to, uh, to get a little more for 'em. That way, if you're putting the right kind of genetics in them, that will reward them in terms of feedlot efficiency, uh, less sickness and better carcass premiums.

Brett Spader (15:21):

Absolutely. You know, and so we've talked a lot about the discipline and the focus that's required in really any Angus breeding operation that's gonna be successful. One of the great things about the Angus breed as well is, is the rapid advancement that our breeders participate in. And, and, and being, being so focused on a total industry package, like Ben has mentioned, Uh, even if it's specific to a certain region or a certain production system. I guess I'd be curious about the technology side of things for both of you, Darin, maybe starting with you. Tell me a little bit about technology as it meshes with your breeding philosophies. What are we seeing in terms of current industry trends that, that you're capitalizing on for that generational advancement? Uh, you know, I won't even necessarily call it turnover. I guess I'd probably prefer to call it advancement. And so, so what are you doing, Darren, from that perspective that's, that's really allowing you to get laser focused on what you wanna achieve?

Darin Meyer (16:18):

Well, to start with selection criteria, obviously we're starting with genomics, and I know there's mixed reviews out there. Uh, it still is better than anything else that we have. I truly feel not to get on a platform here, but I, I feel that genomics a little bit, the message and the science behind genomics has got lost in marketing where everybody looks at it to throw rocks at it and say, Oh, it wasn't right here. It wasn't right there, but at the end of the day, it's better than what we had. It's never been predicted or sold as the endpoint. It's the beginning point is what it is, and you're starting out with more knowledge. So I mean, using that technology, obviously for starting point. As far as reproductive technologies, we use IVF, we use conventional flushing. I mean, we use both of them. Uh, as far as management wise, we manage our beef herd very similar to a dairy herd.

(17:17):

As far as reproductively, we are basically almost a hundred percent, uh, embryo transfer. Those cows are getting preg checked at 30 to 35 days via ultrasound to get re-enrolled as a recip and everything else just to, to make the most calves out of our set of uteruses that we have. And that's about all we're really doing as far as technology, just basic management and using everything that's up to date sorted semen. Darin, do you use sexed semen? Uh, we use a little bit, not a lot. The only time that I'll use sorted semen is if I find a bull I would really like to use, and I have some heifer recips that I want to use, and I will use female then just for the simple reason is like more calving ease and more predictability of not having a, a bigger bull calf out of a, out a two year old.

Brett Spader (18:16):

Yeah. Are there any technologies you've been thinking about implementing that maybe you haven't quite gotten to but are in consideration? You know, DNA testing of embryos, any, anything that really ...?

Darin Meyer (18:27):

Uh, we've done some of that on the Holstein side. Uh, we actually tried it here, I'd say probably two years ago. Don't quote me on the timeframe. Very mixed results, uh, time. We do the biopsy, ended up losing preg rates comparatively and everything else. And we keep pretty good records as far as what we're doing. We're transferring between Holsteins and Angus, probably 12 to 14,000 embryos a year, and everything goes in an Excel spreadsheet. So we kind of know what the difference is at a, management wise to keep our cows on track, having calves what we can do. That being said, I backed off IVF a lot, The IVF thing, it's hard to hit a calving interval and keep your cows in check <laugh> as far as calving on a certain interval.

Brett Spader (19:24):

Well, those are great points all. Ben, I'd be really curious to hear about how your operations adopted technologies, and again, which ones maybe worked and which ones you haven't had quite as much success with.

Ben Eggers (19:35):

Right. Um, actually, I mean, similar to some extent in that we're using IVF and conventional flushing. Uh, but I like to hold that to about a third of the calf crop. Uh, two-thirds of our calf crop will either be AI sired or, or natural service. Um, you know, and you bring up the, the sexed semen. Uh, you know, we, we've used a little bit of it, but once again, in our environment in Missouri, uh, there, there's really not a big edge to having heifers or bulls. Uh, the value's fairly equal. So, so we've not been big on, uh, sexed semen, uh, simply because we can, we can market both, uh, both sexes and, uh, you know, uh, we, we, we just as soon, uh, have about 50-50 bull and female crop, actually, it seems to, to work out about right in terms of our sales and, uh, and the long term program.

(20:37):

As far as the cow herd. Uh, one of the things that I think is pretty interesting, uh, and, and this is history, it's not the future of course, but I've been lucky to be associated with five bulls that have eclipsed a million dollars in semen sales. Of those five sires, only one of 'em was a product of embryo transfer. Hmm. Three of the other ones were AI sired, and one was a natural sired bull. So, you know, it's, it's not, with all the money we spent on embryo transfer over the year, you know, sometime, uh, sometimes you wonder, but, but you're, you're, you're still improving the herd and, and, uh, the females better. And that's a, that's a little bit of a snapshot, but is pretty interesting, uh, to, to me that, that those bulls that did surface, uh, for the five were, were natural calves or, you know, raised on a mother. Um,

Miranda Reiman (21:33):

It kinda sounds like to me, maybe you're saying that God knows better than the Angus breeders sometimes,

Ben Eggers (21:38):

Then, uh, sometimes you gotta give, give it to Him. Yep. <laugh>, or, it'll be fine <laugh>. Uh, in terms of, in terms of genomics, I, oh, if somebody shows them to me or Darla gets real excited about a set of 'em or something, I might look at 'em. But generally I don't look at genomic scores at all. I only look at 'em as they're incorporated into EPDs, uh, because that, that's just what I can relate to better in terms of, of what kind of improvement they'll make. And to see, okay, how does that affect him and does that make sense for what he is? Um, and of course, there's always gonna be some genetic or, or some environmental factors that might cause, uh, the genetics to not be quite expressed like you think they will be when they're at weaning age, for instance. But, still give you an interesting perspective then as they grow on and develop and maybe even make cows or, or breeding bulls.

(22:36):

But, like I said, that, that that's just the way I use 'em. I'm used to EPDs, a lot of people are worried that we're getting too many, I, I'd still like to have more, you know, we need more on the, on the fertility traits and, we've always been after that, you know, longevity is still a big factor in the, in the commercial cow herds out there. And, we don't, our, our main breeding cows, we pretty much merchandise by the time they're seven. But basically if, if for some reason she's not saleable at seven, then I keep her and us her as a, what I call a flex cow, which is a registered recip. And, we utilize a lot of those cows. You know, we, we just sent one to town here last month that was 17 years old, you know, and,  sometimes you, you go back and look at her record and you think, Well, maybe I should have been flushing her and still putting eggs in her, you know, but <laugh>, but,  probably wouldn't really be marketable today, <laugh>, of course.

(23:42):

But, still it, it's interesting and it enables us to, to maybe even learn more about some of the bloodlines we have. Cause, you know, they can end up, in that flex herd, and the flex herd runs right with the other cow. So they, they get treated just like, our, our main herd, we AI one time, and then they go with the cleanup bull and it's a total of a 60 day season. if they're flex cow, they get an embryo and they still run with a cleanup bull. So, it's, try to keep it structured and try to, and keeping the birth dates on our weaning groups in all, in a tighter time frame that way.

Mark McCully (24:23):

So guys, as you, as you've implemented those technologies, and I think IVF is the one that, that, that we, you know, probably an area we focus on, or this discussion we wanted to kind of focus on today a little bit, is that, you know, one of the things that obviously that gives us the ability to shorten gestation or, or generational interval rather. And, we know that's a, that's a key, uh, element of making genetic progress. Um, the flip side of that, and maybe sometimes the question I hear, and the, the discussion we get into is, is as we turn those generations so fast, what, um, are there unintended consequences, if you will? What are the pitfalls, I should say, maybe as we go down that road, um, maybe as we, we have less exposure to those 8, 10, 12 year old cows because we're, we're turning these females so fast. So I guess maybe I'd love to hear both of you guys really weigh in on this topic as you think about shortening that generation interval. What are the things we need to keep an eye on as, as Angus breeders? Ben, you wanna wade in first?

Ben Eggers (25:30):

Okay. Yeah, that's kind of what I alluded to, uh, early on there in, in that we do, we do some of that, but I sure I, I sure don't want to wade in too deep either with that quick generational turnover deal, you know, we, we don't have EPDs for, for teat and udders yet. I mean, we, we probably will here, but still some things like that, I mean, just, you know, I, I guess when, when you go to flush and heifers that are outta heifers that are outta heifers, you know, when one, one of the big downers I see in the last few years as you've seen more of this really, uh, quick generational turnover and all, you open a sale catalog and you can't find a picture of a wet cow. You know, most all of them are are dry fat donors, you know, and to a cow man, old school,

(26:31):

I, I'll admit that. Uh, but I, I, I wanna see that that cow did have an utter long enough to raise a calf and get a picture <laugh>, uh, you know, just, uh, just wanna see those kind of cows that, that are actually, uh, you know, can raise a calf on their own too, just to know that they did. And, and we do a little bit the same way on our bulls. I, I've, I've never left a bull in the bull stud forever. Uh, they all, they all go somewhere or come home one and breed cows natural, and just to be sure that, you know, we don't get into any kind of a screwy deal that, uh, that ends up, uh, showing up down the road, you know, uh, gotta make sure they're working real world.

Mark McCully (27:12):

You mentioned your one third, um, managing, um, kind of shooting for that one third ET two-thirds AI and, and natural. Is that, is that kind of the rule you've held to, to do exactly this, to keep these females in, to see these females wet and in production and not get too heavily weighted ET?

Ben Eggers (27:32):

Yeah, that, that, that's been part of it, You know, it's just, just an ongoing thing. I mean, uh, we wanna see, and we wanna have enough cows out there raising their, their own calves too, that, you know, like I said, from the, from looking at our best AI bulls over the years, you know, the, those cows are just as likely to do it. Uh, you know, that, that they would include some of those cows that you talked about earlier, you know, that you don't find till they're, till they're six years old. Uh, some of those cows end up really surfacing and, one of the, and we always flush some 5, 6, 7 year old cows each year as well, to be sure and keep all that kind of in balance.

Darin Meyer (27:32):

Mark McCully (28:16):

Darin, how about from, uh, your vantage point?

Darin Meyer (28:20):

Well, I push it pretty hard. I do have some checks and balances in there. To start with, I try to select the ones that I'm using as a donor out of fairly proven bulls. Uh, for instance, when you're selecting stuff, I select genomically obviously, but like for instance, I'll use a bull, for example, like a Rawhide or something. Now there's getting to be quite enough or quite a bit of data in on a bull like that for the yearling heifers. I try to shy away from heifers that are yearlings that are on the very front side of their sire's progeny, just because I don't feel there's enough information there for stability as far as management wise and phenotype. I work off of kind of what I know the cows are. I'm obviously working with heifers, but I'm working with heifers that were out of a good cow that had a good udder, had good teats, had good disposition that way.

(29:20):

And kind of keeping that in mind all the time. And also, I guess I'm being very disciplined all the time to look at stuff and say, you know, you kind of met the criteria on paper, but your mother was a bad cow, or something like that. Kind of a veto trait, so to say. And always keep that in mind and don't do strictly paper selection for lack of better terms. I think that helps a lot there. I think if you continue to have good cows in your pedigrees and also good bulls and know that the bulls that you have built in your pedigree are bulls that don't throw the anomalies of bad stuff, you'll be just fine. Because I look at a cow that I'm flushing, I look at her as she's 87.5% of her near nearest three sires in her pet. And I know that's kind of dismissing cow family a little bit, but if you have good cows as far as phenotype functionality behind them, and you have three good proven bulls that within the industry are proven all well, I think it could be pretty safe selecting for younger stuff.

Brett Spader (30:39):

I think that's a great perspective to say that there's, there's a lot of pieces that go into selecting that next generation, and in some cases it's data, and in some cases it's an understanding of bloodlines genetics and proof. I'd be really, really curious to hear at a granular level how each of you selects that next generation of donors. What exactly is the priority that you look for first and foremost? And then, and then maybe, maybe what are some of the top things that you flow to from there? Maybe start with Ben.

Ben Eggers (31:14):

Okay. Um, we'd try to look at the total picture. I mean, we're looking at the EPD package. $C is a big driver. But the individual traits are also very important. Probably as important as anything is that there are no big holes anywhere in our EPD profile. Um, and, and we've, uh, been looking at structure very hard, over the years. You know, I like the cow family deal, but you know, the, the strong sires is also, a part of it. I wonder with the, with the current scenario, if we're going to prove these sires as well as we have been doing, we tend to be, we've went from the bull of the year club almost to a bull the week club here recently, it seems like.

(32:12):

And, you know, keeping those bulls, getting enough semen marketed on 'em to even, have a, a really strong baseline. It's gonna take some, you know, a lot of breeders turning in a lot of phenotypes. And, and that's, that's become a little bit of a tricky situation with, basically a lot of people just depending totally on the, on the genomic, uh, scores then to create their EPD profile. I think the association is gonna have to come up with some kind of way to incentivize more phenotype reporting, uh, just to make sure that we do have those good proven sires in the future then that, uh, that you can relate to and that you can take to the bank.

Brett Spader (33:08):

Yeah. Calls in the question of EPD accuracy a little bit and the role that that plays. Any additional thoughts around the value of EPD accuracy in, in those situations?

Ben Eggers (33:18):

Well, I use that quite a bit, but, you know, I'm not sure how many breeders do anymore, <laugh>, but I, I pay a lot of attention to it. And according to, you know, how many actual phenotypes are turned in, you can, you can have a bull with, pretty high accuracy nowadays and still basically all genomics, you know, and I'm not saying that's necessarily wrong, but we probably will have some situations we always have whenever, if, if we get to, to stringing it out too far to where we're gonna have some, some bad surprises somewhere along the way. So, to me, incentivizing phenotypic, data submission is, is, is still an important part of going forward.

Miranda Reiman (34:07):

Yeah. Well, that's been talked about in the board conversations. I know it was a, a big topic last time. What would, what would be a good incentive? Ben, you got any ideas we should bring?

Ben Eggers (34:20):

I've had too much going on this week. That was a goal to come up with the perfect idea, but I didn't

Mark McCully (34:26):

<laugh> we'll give you another week.

Miranda Reiman (34:27):

We'll give you another, Yeah, we'll,

Mark McCully (34:28):

We'll circle this. Ok.

Miranda Reiman (34:30):

I'll catch you at Angus Convention and we can talk about it. <laugh>.

Mark McCully (34:33):

No, it's definitely been a topic at the, at the board level for, you know, I've been here three years and it's been, I know a topic since, since I got here for sure. And I think for, for all the reasons you mentioned, I think it's, um, you know, some things we've done here just recently of even just making, uh, a notation of at the bottom of the pedigrees of which, which phenotypic records have been turned in on those animals. Just again, creating more visibility and, and I think, uh, as people start, uh, awareness, um, accuracy, I think, uh, maybe a little more, um, we were joking about it, We need to make accuracy sexy again. You know, I think it, it was our joke, but, but I think to, to the truth of, of, as we get multiple generations away from some of this phenotypic data, again, folks that understand accuracy know that, uh, you know, that that potential change of that EPD gets, gets, gets kind of big and, and, but when you, um, you know, we don't have accuracies on our indexes, we have 'em on the component traits.

(35:29):

So all of those things around just kind of creating awareness around that. Um, I think just, you know, some of, as we, we start talking about incentives, I think the, the, you know, the, you gotta always be careful. You don't put too big of a carrot out there. You wanna make sure that we're getting good data and folks aren't filling in boxes for the wrong reasons too, right? But I think you're spot on. I think we've gotta make sure that, that those breeders and, and we're fortunate. I look at our AHIR data this year compared to last, we're basically right on par with, with our, specifically our weights, way up on foot scores, way up on breeding records, way up on hair shedding scores, some of those other traits, which is really exciting and encouraging to see that our, our breeders are committed to that phenotypic data.

Miranda Reiman (36:21):

We, we didn't let Darin answer that.

Mark McCully (36:28):

Sorry, Darin. I love that question. Yeah. Selection in your donor. What are the criteria that gets one to the donor pen?

Darin Meyer (36:34):

Well, mirroring Ben's a little bit, I mean, it's at all encompassing thing. I go start with a genetic profile. Nothing that's too far off that I don't feel is correctable. If you get a trait that gets way out of balance, I don't think that one generation, I can get it to the point where I want it after I kind of selected for what I have on paper. Basically, it going depends, find the animals, keep in mind what kind of cows are out of, and when we get down to an individual, I look her at or look at her as a commercial animal when I'm gonna make her a donor or not. If I'm a commercial guy, kind of look at it as a third party. If I'm a commercial guy and I would be happy with cows like that, they're probably a go if I get in the pen and for one reason or another, say she's wild, um, she's got a poor foot or something like that, kind of like I say, a third party appraisal.

(37:35):

If I couldn't see myself being proud of that animal as a commercial animal, regardless of her numbers, I do not make her a donor <laugh> And the end of the day, that's where all those genetics are gonna end up. And if, if they're not happy with what they have, there's no use propagating it. Kind of on Ben's point there too about accuracies and liabilities and everything, philosophical soapbox here, we're kind of gonna get into a little bit of a, a sticky point I feel with high dollar semen limited use, I truly don't feel that even when they get an accuracy that's printed, it's gonna be accurate because it's human nature. You buy a thousand dollar unit of semen, you're gonna use it very, very selectively, not randomly <laugh>. So I think that's gonna be a little bit of a pitfall in the future moving forward, where you get bulls that are, have females that are now selection wise aimed to be a donor, and the data on those bulls sit in that pedigree are really not a random cross section of, uh, usage and beef industry.

Brett Spader (38:48):

You carry some great perspectives from the Holstein business. Tell us how things compare and contrast there too.

Darin Meyer (38:58):

The, the philosophical reasons to do things is obviously generation interval, you speed up genetic progress and everything else, they mirror each other there. But there's big differences in the dairy industry versus the beef industry. First of all, the dairy industry, I don't know the exact number, but I'd assume that 90 to 95% of all the dairy cows in this country are fed a TMR with a corn silage base ration. And there you get uniformity of management, uniformity of how animals respond. Obviously, beef industry's not that way. I mean, you got the southeast where it's hot and humid and you go from high plains desert to swamp grass and everything in between <laugh>. So that's a difference there because I think you take, different animals will work in different areas, a little different because of the management. I also feel that within the dairy industry, if you move genetics with, without a governor, for lack of better terms, you can change your management as you move those animals to best suit them.

(40:04):

Whereas the beef industry, a lot of these cows are functioning on the same grass that grew for buffalo 150 years ago. You're not gonna change the basic feed nutritional element of what these cattle are doing. So I mean, that, that's a huge contrast. The other huge contrast is the amount of data and the amount of accuracy. I feel that on the dairy side, because the amount of data and accuracy we have, we can push hard as far as generation interval, we can push hard and be more reliant on a genomic score in itself, versus you get into the Angus, the accuracies aren't as high. I feel that you can kind of go off at a tangent sometime from what your true goal is unintentionally. It's kind of like a golf swing. If you can hit it really, really hard, it's not going straight. You're probably just going further away from the hole than closer to it <laugh>. But I think that's, that's a couple of the bigger contrasts that I see.

Mark McCully (41:08):

I love that golf analogy. It's, that's, that was always my idea when I was young. I just hit it really, really hard. And I learned, uh, I used to golf with this, uh, guy that was, uh, about 75, and I always thought I could, I could, uh, I could whip him because he just hit it down straight. And I, I learned pretty quick that, uh, he whipped me and it was the, uh, <laugh>, it wasn't all about how far we can hit it. Yeah.

Darin Meyer (41:30):

The other contrast, I think, not on a genetic level, just as far as a marketing level, that's a totally different customer base. In the dairy industry, there is no herd bull customer. It's all geared towards four or five AIs and all the other bulls, with the exception of the elite say, thousand, 2000 bulls within the dairy industry are all pound bulls. Whereas you look at beef industry, these bulls that are good bulls that aren't probably one of the best thousand in the country, have got a huge amount of value. And they got a different kind of value too. And I feel because the dairy AI industry is looking for straight outliers all the time, where the beef industry breeding bulls, you get bulls that are hitting it right down the center and having the really good usable bulls that are producing the invisible cows, for lack of better terms. Like you say, you don't even know you had her until she's six years old. They have a lot of value, whereas in dairy industry they had zero value.

Brett Spader (42:43):

Yeah. And I know we really wanted to get into some of that conversation of, okay, where's, where's the trade off here in terms of, of rapid generational turnover, specifically as it pertains to, to buyers of registered Angus bulls in a commercial setting. So, so maybe continue to expand on that a little bit, Darin. Are there some specific traits that, that you watch yourself, uh, to, to safeguard that aspect while also balancing it with an aggressive approach to genetic advancement? And, and again, what do you, what do you hear from customers? What, what do they want? What do they like, What do they need not only in 2022, but maybe in five and 10 years into the future?

Darin Meyer (43:23):

Well, I kinda keep all of 'em in mind. I do not focus on any one trait in particular, but I will also let a single trait be a veto trait. I am 100% sold on the fact that a cow slash bull, whatever, is only as good as his best trait. I've seen it time and time again throughout breeding cattle for the last 30 years. Doesn't matter how good of an utter you have, if the feet, legs are bad, it doesn't matter. So many of the, the great traits that an animal has will never be expressed at the demise of one of their poorer ones. It's just the way it always works out, <laugh>. So, like I said, that being said, I look at 'em all and I try to keep 'em all balanced. I don't necessarily try to have any of 'em in the highest percentage of the breed.

(44:22):

I try to keep 'em all moving towards the upper end together, is what I do. Uh, primary focus, my birth weight, calving ease direct, weaning weight, except with carcass rates or carcas traits are my first and foremost selection criteria. But I try not to let any of the more management ones get away. Right now, as far as maternal wise, I'm really trying to focus more on heifer pregnancy rate, because it gets down to the fact that cows don't do any good if they're not pregnant. <laugh>, it's kind of like I'm saying too, it's kinda like that veto trait. It doesn't matter how good a cow you were if you can't get pregnant front side and stay in the front side of a breeding season.

Brett Spader (45:06):

And Ben, you touched on some great points earlier, but I'd be curious if, if you got some more to add in terms of your, your breeding philosophies in terms of how you achieve that balance.

Ben Eggers (45:18):

It's just a continual process of reevaluating, you know, And it's always an issue with cattle because you don't, you know, round peg doesn't always, fit in the round hole. They change, or your perception of them does change, uh, sometimes as time goes on. But I totally agree with Darin there. The, limiting value of, of any animal in a breeding program is gonna be the worst trait. So you've got to simultaneously, try to improve everything as you go forward, you know? And is, is there a limit to some traits? I, I think we're, we're all seeing, seeing some of that. But in reality, we don't, we don't really know yet for sure. Maybe there is a way to have the 180 pound yearling weight and they'd still make good cows.

(46:18):

We really don't know if we can do that or not. There was a time probably in, in my life where I figured, cows with a hundred, a hundred pound yearling weights would be too big to function. But in reality, if the pounds are in there in the right package, you know, there, there's a lot of them, you know, they're just kind of average cows now. And they function real well, depends on the environment and what the feedstuffs are, um, all those kinds of things. But, you know, the bull buyers are, uh, they're pretty selective and, and, uh, yeah, if there's one thing wrong with him, you know, he's, he's got a tough sell. Um, now there probably is, at least in my area, there's a lot less pure emphasis on calving ease like there used to be.

(47:08):

I think there are some people, a lot of breeders have figured out that, and especially if they're fall calving, that they need a little more birth weight in those calves to, to really make 'em vigorous and, and healthy. I'm glad that seems to be improving over time. We do have, uh, a lot of people in Missouri who do retain ownership or some form of it at least. And probably gonna see more of that in the future. So I think that helps the carcass traits stay front and center for them. But it's still all in tandem with the bull that can move and breed cows and his daughters will function. That's gotta be first.

Miranda Reiman (47:52):

Do you think it's more or less stressful to breed cattle today than it was 10 or 20 years ago?

Ben Eggers (47:58):

Oh, much, much more. It was all phenotype then, you know, if you liked him, great. And if you didn't, you didn't, and it was simple. <laugh>

Miranda Reiman (48:07):

But you didn't know as much about him, right? I mean,

Ben Eggers (48:10):

Right. No, you didn't know as much about him and you had a lot more disappointments probably. Well, I know he did. Yeah. You know, there was, there were a lot more throwaways really for, for things like that. Um, but uh, with, with all the things we can measure now, and, and you know, and we've all heard it through the years, Oh, you know, that EPD doesn't work, but guess what, it kind of does. It, it just, there may be, you may have one that doesn't fit, you know, that that doesn't show up like she reads, so to speak. But, uh, but in general, they're gonna be, they're gonna be right on the money. I'll be honest on the foot EPDs, I laughed when I heard you were coming out with, you know, no more of a, of a base than you had, and then to use genomics and put 'em on every animal, there was no way that could work.

(49:03):

I've been pleasantly surprised how well it works. Uh, you know, even on cattle that haven't been foot scored, it will predict them pretty well. You know, there, there's still one out of 10 that won't line up like, like the EPD or the genomic enhanced EPD would say. But, uh, but in general, um, you know, they're, they're, they're pretty accurate. Which, which makes me feel better about going forward, you know, with hair shed, and with, with teat and udder scores, I'm sure too, you know, if you can get enough phenotypes turned in to establish those genotypes, then um, you know, I think the future would just continue to get better on those kind of traits. I wish we could do, uh, wish it was easier and cheaper to do more on true feed efficiency. But then again, we don't know that that fits with the, with female, or roughage efficiency either yet. So, you know, maybe our better deal there is to stick with the, uh, breed back on on the cow herd and, and that's difficult. Nothing <laugh> of itself to measure. So, you know, but, uh, that, that'll be the kind of thing I think going forward that'll really, uh, really get some more attention.

Mark McCully (50:14):

And I know Ben, you, you sat in that boardroom for, for years. You, you understand the kind of that dilemma that it's sometimes the chicken or the egg on some of these new new EPDs of do you, do you put 'em out? Um, when do, when do they come, come out? And at times, uh, it's been, I think the philosophy has been, you know, when there's obviously enough data that they're valid. And yet knowing that as we as once you get those out and, and folks start paying attention and turning in more phenotypes, then obviously it's gonna get more powerful and, and, and more predictive. And, and so it's, uh, it's always a chicken or, but I did write down, I put you in the column of more EPDs. I, I wrote that down cuz I, I'm keeping track. I keep track of who wants more and who wants less and who thinks we've got it just about right. So <laugh>,

Miranda Reiman (51:00):

I was thinking maybe we should sign up Ben, to be like the next, um, person for marketing AGI. Like, I laughed when they came out with these EPDs, but hey, they worked <laugh>. That's a, that's a great marketing story, Ben <laugh>.

Mark McCully (51:13):

Yeah. One of the things you guys both, and I just want kind of wanted to put a little exclamation point on it. I think you guys both talked about, you know, from a breeding philosophy standpoint, you know, it's a cow or a bull is only as good as their, worst trait, right? And yet in the world of marketing, right, we flip that around and we try to find whatever they're best at. And we, and we highlight that and, and I think, I think that's hard, right? That makes it to me sometimes really hard for, for, for breeders and maybe some that haven't been through some, some, uh, some generations of making some of those mistakes and learning from those mistakes. You, you, you get attracted to the marketing side a little bit and, and it maybe, maybe makes you veer off some of those disciplines that, uh, that we probably need to have as breeders of, of of thinking this about this a little, maybe a little more holistically. So I thought that was, that was a lot of wisdom coming from both of you guys on that.

Darin Meyer (52:04):

Well, you'll look at how things are measured and what we're all measuring. So many of 'em are antagonistic in themselves. Getting back to Ben's point about, well, can you believe that big of a yearling weight and can that make a good cow? You can go back retrospectively and look at where a breed went from 50 years ago and put yourself in their perspective 50 years ago. You would've never thought you could've had an Angus cow that looks like it does today. So that being said, I truly feel that if you stack your generations of animals that are similar to your target and get new genetic recombinations and everything else, eventually yes, I firmly believe that you will be able to get cows animals that can push those high growth EPDs along with great management traits. Are you there now? Absolutely not. And I don't feel that any animal that's an outlier on one spectrum of an EPD can hold a reasonable outlier level of an antagonistic type EPD.

(53:19):

It's not gonna happen. But as a breeder, going back to my statement of 50 years ago, yeah, you would've thought it was impossible then, but it's not impossible now. The problem or the challenge of it is to make all the successive generations of progress you've made in the last 50 years now. And if you can do that in 25 years, look at what you did different. You can get there. I mean, it's not impossible. I mean, we are, for lack of a better terms, genetically mutating these animals all the time with our matings. We're we're searching for new recombinations that weren't there in the past. That's why we're moving forward.

Miranda Reiman (53:56):

Well I think we've probably, um, taken up enough of you guys' morning, but this has been a fantastic, I

Mark McCully (54:01):

Think we could go on with this for another couple hours. I kind want to, but I I do think you probably better shut her down, huh?

Miranda Reiman (54:08):

That's right. Um, we've been ending with kind of a random question of the week before I do that, is there anything else that either of you guys wanna add?

Mark McCully (54:16):

<laugh>, Ben's getting ... about this random question.

Miranda Reiman (54:20):

He says Miranda's random enough. She didn't warn about this.

Ben Eggers (54:24):

Yeah, she doesn't need to try that hard

Miranda Reiman (54:27):

<laugh>. I love it. Well, today's random question of the week is if you could go back in history and use any bull from the past, um, get semen on him, which bull would you like to try or try again?

Darin Meyer (54:43):

Well, I'm gonna speak first here cuz I'm at a disadvantage. I don't have all the years that Ben's got

Miranda Reiman (54:49):

<laugh>, right, <laugh>.

Darin Meyer (54:53):

I can honestly say that I don't know if I would really have one specifically picked out at this point just because I'm not far enough down that road to have the bull that like, wow, either I really missed him or I really should have had a lot more of him, to be honest with you.

Miranda Reiman (55:11):

That's a fair point. When you were talking about that 50 years ago, we never thought we could have said Ben, were you thinking about that 50 years <laugh>? So do you got one in mind, then?

Ben Eggers (55:28):

I can just tell you what I did, I guess. Uh, but one of the best growthiest females, uh, heifer calves on the farm this year is a daughter who of VDAR New Trend 315, who was born in 1988, buried in the front yard. And this won't be on the podcast, but the two pictures up there, uh, <laugh>.

(55:51):

So he does kinda come to mind, but, uh, uh, actually, uh, had a, had had a, a customer interested in, uh, what do you call, retro genetics. So, uh, we, we actually, uh, IVF'ed a cow with 315 semen and, uh, it worked out pretty well. I, you know, seems to be just fine. It'll be interesting to see now how she, uh, she'd been weaned last week and, and, and I'd say she'd have been the top four or five of our keeper efforts, but, uh, I haven't actually even looked at the data yet. Uh, but uh, you know, how she comes on, how she scans, you know, he was a, a leader in, in marbling, uh, uh, early on there and kind of a poster child for Certified Angus Beef actually for a while back in the, uh, in the nineties there. Uh, Mark. So may have even been before your time, but <laugh>

Mark McCully (56:44):

That's awesome.

Miranda Reiman (56:46):

Super interesting. Well, thank you guys for taking the time to visit with us today and, um, we'd love to hear additional discussions. You know, if people wanna visit with any of us, they can go ahead and go to theangusconversation.com and drop a line there. But looking forward to, to hearing more on everybody's philosophies around this. Thanks a lot. Thanks for sharing, guys.

 
That was fun a topic and a bittersweet podcast for us, as it was Brett Spader’s last as co-host on the show. He’ll be leaving Angus Media in the near future to pursue other ventures and we wish him well….and of course, Mark and I will continue to bring you the latest conversations in the Angus breed.
 
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