REFS NEED LOVE TOO
An honest perspective from the 3rd team on the pitch... the referees. Through humor, analysis and education, we are slowly changing how people view referees and officials in all sports. We care and have a love for the game as much as any player or coach. Sometimes even more. Youth soccer (proper football) is a multi-billion $ industry in the US. Tremendous money is spent on players, competitions, travel etc., but almost nothing spent on developing the next generation of referees. I hope that this Podcast inspires, educates and humanizes the next generation of referees for their own development and appreciation from the players, coaches and spectators they need to work alongside.
REFS NEED LOVE TOO
Navigating Referee Promotions and Technology: Jonathan Wilks on Fitness, Communication, and REFSIX
Have you ever wondered what it takes to become a top-level referee? Join us as we sit down with Jonathan Wilkes, a Level 3 referee from Brighton, England, who has officiated matches across Australia and Denmark. Jonathan opens up about how his father’s refereeing career sparked his passion and how the innovative Ref6 smartwatch app reignited his love for the game. His unique blend of sports science expertise and personal training for referees provides an insightful look into the world of officiating.
Achieving referee promotions in the UK is no small feat, and Jonathan guides us through this rigorous journey—from trainee to the competitive ranks of Level 3. He breaks down the fitness tests, assessment criteria, and regional rankings that referees must navigate to climb the ladder. We also explore the key differences between the UK and US refereeing systems, offering valuable insights for aspiring referees around the globe.
Effective communication is pivotal on the pitch, and we delve into the FA's strategies to improve dialogue between players and officials, especially in semi-professional leagues. Jonathan shares his experiences with the sin bin rule and the transformative power of technology, like the Ref6 app, that is revolutionizing how referees manage matches. From advanced timing features to performance analytics, discover how these tools are enhancing the referee experience. This episode is brimming with practical advice, personal stories, and a deep exploration into the evolving world of refereeing.
Before we get into today's show, we have a word from one of our sponsors that I'm really excited about. I love the saying necessity is the mother of invention and let me tell you, most assigning platforms out there for officials are brutal. Well, two young men recently out of college decided there had to be a better way to manage officials and get assigned, and they founded a company called Refersports. It simply makes referee management and assigning easy. It's native on a mobile app so you can manage your games whether you're in the office, on a desktop or on the go. It is now the world's fastest growing assigning solution and it's 100% free for assigners. It's a no-brainer to make the switch. It makes assigners easier to work with. I've got a few assigners in my world that are brutal just because their systems are so bad and antiquated. It provides a dedicated integration specialist, so when you make a switch over to refer, it ensures a seamless transition for you and the organization and the officials that you work with, and they support over 25 sports. So if you're assigning for soccer, you're assigning for softball, you're signing for lacrosse, you can use one platform for everything. Simply put, man, if you want to level up your assigning game and be an easier assigner to work with for the referees and officials that are in your universe. Use a tool that makes everyone's life better Refersports. It's spelled R-E-F-R sports. Check it out online or in the app store.
Speaker 1:Hello and welcome to the Refs Need Love 2 podcast, a show that gives you a real, raw and behind the scenes view of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch the referee. I'm your host, david Gerson, a grassroots referee and certified mentor with over 10 years of experience and over 1,200 matches under my belt. You can find me at WrestlingLove2.com, on Instagram, on TikTok and now on YouTube. Today we are going to be interviewing Jonathan Wilkes all the way from Brighton, england. Jon is an avid Level 3 referee and an assistant referee in the English Football League. That's right, people. He previously also refereed in Australia.
Speaker 1:He's got a strong sports science background, studying sports and exercise science for his undergraduate degree and then got a performance analysis degree for his master's. That's what he focused on. He's worked as a performance analyst at a top-tier football club and when he's not refereeing, he spends his spare time as a personal trainer to other referees. Oh, and before I forget, he also works for Ref6. That's right. Ref6 is the smartwatch app that lets you leave your notebook behind and effortlessly record key match incidents as they happen on the pitch. Ref6 measures data specific to referees to help you improve positioning decision making. We measure distance the cover more accurately than traditional fitness apps, because it's all about being a referee in the game of football. It's got a heat map showing positioning. It shows you your speed during the game, which I love to see. Oh my gosh, so much to talk about, john. Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2:Thanks for the invite and I think you should hype me up more often. I think I need to come to all my games with an introduction like that I'd be happy to, man, I would love to come see you ref.
Speaker 1:I'd love to come over to england. I tell you, I think it's one of these things you really can when you are a certified referee. You can go ref everywhere in the world. There's always different culture and different customs, but the laws of the game are the same wherever you're going, and you have actually reffed a number of places around the world. I know you're in england now, but you've reffed in australia and I could have sworn. You've done some other international work as well, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, I did a game in denmark. We we do a lot of the dbu as ref six, so we got the opportunity to go and referee a game in denmark as well, which is good fun oh, that's a lot of fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's again. It's one of these wonderful things no matter where you've been as a referee, when you step out onto the field as a crew, or even when you just meet your crew before the match, you're always like fast friends hey, what's going on? Because you have a shared experience together yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:it's one of the better things about being a referee especially I'm lucky enough that I go out a lot with other people, so I get that buzz an awful lot and it's probably one of my favorite things.
Speaker 1:That's so cool. So how did your referee story begin? How did you get started?
Speaker 2:Why did you get started? Tell me about it. So I played football up until the age of 14, 15. My dad's a referee, funny enough as well. He refereed at we call it county league level, so a decent standard of football. So he used to take me to all the games that on a Saturday I'd watch a referee, on a Sunday I'd I'd play myself and then I had a paper round and my mum said I could give it up if I carried on refereeing because referee had paid a little bit more. So I carried on doing that and then I got to.
Speaker 2:Didn't take it very seriously. 18, 19 went to uni was like oh, I could do something here. 2021, covid happened. I just gone, I just left to go to australia or just come back. Refereed in australia. I found the bug for it and realistically I joined ref six in 20, just before covid happened, and really found my love for it. Working here, the whole data side of things started doing well again, started to get fit again and really kicked on and took it up properly, probably seriously, about 25 and kicked on from there really.
Speaker 1:You said you took it seriously around 25 as a age. I don't know how old you are now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm 28 now, so really starting to think about performance, analyzing my games religiously, looking at the tiny details, making sure that everything I do in the gym, everything I eat, is all done before friday. Friday is match day, perfect, and then. So everything I do during the week is now geared up to saturday to make sure I can perform at my best. When I was 20, 21, 22 wasn't as perfect, didn't really take it seriously and realized that maybe there is a chance that I can take it to the pro game, and so I really started taking it seriously about three, four years ago.
Speaker 1:That's amazing, so I want to. I think one of the things about the big differences between England and America is the development pathway and the pyramid, if you will, for referees. We here in America we lost over relegation and promotion in the Premier League or in the English Football League. I should say we don't have that here in America. We lost over relegation and promotion in the Premier League or in the English Football League. I should say we don't have that here in the United States. The franchise owners are too worried about possibly being dropped down and losing some of their investment. But we love what you guys have in England.
Speaker 1:But I don't know that many of the referees here in America understand that there is actually a big pyramid for referees as well and that you can move up year after year. But it's promotion. It could be relegation. You could stay in the same level. Can you talk about go back four years ago? Okay, let's go back to 2020, 2021. Where were you reffing? What kind of matches and then what happens at the end of the year for you to get promoted?
Speaker 2:So yeah, four years ago I was a level four, so work slightly differently. We go seven is like a new trainee referee. Then you get promoted to six, which is just by doing a certain number of games. You have an observer turn up, you're probably good enough to do the next level. You have to have that three times. Then you get to level five. It's absolutely fine. You do basically the same thing, but you've also got to do a certain number of like assistant referee duties to then progress to the next level. And then level four is where I was like, oh, maybe I can give it a go, and that's where we get entered into a league table with all of our colleagues. So we get put in regionally. So for Sussex we had 35 referees and you have to be in the top 10% to be promoted or be taken to an assessment day.
Speaker 1:Whoa, holy cow. Okay, you said so many things I have so many questions about. First off, I think you said that to make it from level six because that's just the number of matches you do to the level five that you have observers turn up. Can you talk to me about that? So do you have to pay for those assessments, for the observer to come, or they just randomly show up to your match and they watch you and give you some feedback?
Speaker 2:So from level seven to level five you apply to be on the promotion scheme whether you want to be promoted or not. So some people a lot of the sort of sunday league referees are happy just refereeing sunday league, so they stay. As a level seven or a six they can do that standard of football. They're more than welcome to stay there. It's not an obligation. And then, as you, if you want to progress as a young star or even at any age really, you can apply to be on the promotion scheme and as long as you hit the criteria they'll send an observer to you. You don't have to pay. And then they send an observer to you who goes and looks at you three times a year.
Speaker 2:Then if you hit the criteria so each structure is, we break it down into maybe four to start with and then as you get higher up the levels, the sort of competencies we call them change. So we're looking at application of law, match control, decision making and accuracy, and if you're, we get marked on stuff like above standard, excellent, and then best practice or development, major development, and as long as you hit standard expected, you can get promoted. And then obviously it becomes a little bit more difficult as you become a level four, because each competency is then marked by a number seven, seven and a half, eight, nine and ten and then that the observer doesn't know. The mark just puts in whether you were good best practice and at the bottom it comes as a mark and then that mark is then collated because we get ref observed at that level 50 of our games gets a league table and then your club marks get put on via that as well, so everything collects into one and then you see where you are ranked at the end of the year.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh oh my gosh, that is so different from how it is in the United States I can't even begin to describe how dramatically different it is. It brings me pain. I don't want to dwell on how messed up I think the US system is. I'm a mentor in the system, I'm part of the system. Gosh, that sounds so much better. Okay, let's talk about where you are now. So now you've made it to level three, so you've had these assessments, you've been ranked, and again to go from four to three, do you have to be again in that top 10 of your peer group to go from four to three?
Speaker 2:yeah. So in that level four group you have to be roughly in the top 10 and then they might not take you because the fa have just introduced something called assessment day, so they'll take maybe the top 10% of that region. So for me, sussex is quite a small region. We have 35, so they took 10, or they took three to an assessment day where you have to pass fitness tests, the laws of the game test and I believe it's like clip analysis as well. So you go to a big day out, pass the fitness test, pass the laws of the game test. It's really professional in terms of making sure that, because we're getting into the top echelons of football here, we know law, we're fit enough to keep up with it. Some people make it because they don't know law or they don't make it because they don't know law, and it's really important that we keep our standards high as well.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. Can you talk to me about the fitness tests for the different levels from five to four? Okay, I want to talk three in a second in a second, but from five to four is there a fitness test there, and is it the international fifa fitness test or is there something else that is done? So, from five, to four.
Speaker 2:It's like county based. We try and stay in line with sort of everyone. So at the moment we're doing the fifa fitness test, which is 25 meters walking, 75 meters running, and each one is different. So at five to four you might get to run it in 18 seconds or 20 seconds and 25 seconds of rest and as you progress up the ladder. So for example, when I did my fitness test at the start of the season, I had to run it in 15 seconds and then I only had 18 seconds recovery. So it just gets a little bit shorter yeah, so you're now doing at level three.
Speaker 1:You're doing the fifa men's one, whereas it sounds like to go from five to four. You're doing the fifa women's three, which is that for here in america to go from just a grassroots referee to regional, you have to pass the women's fifa three to make it to be considered to be a regional referee. You've got to do a ton of games. You have to get the assessments which we pay for, by by the way, but that's the thing. And so I guess now at your stage, you're now at that FIFA category one to maintain that level three and to be considered to go beyond. If you want to get beyond that, cool, all right. So talk to me about. So now is it a level three? What are some of the types of matches, the highest matches, that you're either a center referee for or an assistant referee for at this stage?
Speaker 2:So we do something called dual rolling, which is, obviously I can referee and I can assistant referee, and when you get to level three you get four years to decide whether you want to be an assistant referee full time or a referee full time. So I'm two years, this is season three for me. So I'm two years, this is season three for me. So as a center referee, I can referee the ishmean premier league, which is step three, we call it. So it's three leagues below the football league and yeah, so we've got.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there's a premier league championship, league two, I'm sorry, league one, league two, and then there's the national league, national league seven right, and then under that, under the national league south, is where I can referee and then, as a and as a system referee, we can get promoted as on on the line as well. I've just been promoted to something called the national group assistant referees, which is allows me to referee on the national league, league one and league two this year, so that's obviously quite a really nice thing. So teams like rexham, which obviously internationally are now very famous. So for me me that's a really big deal. It's not anything I really ever thought I'd maybe do one day. I haven't had my first football league game yet, but I've had my first National League games and they've been really exciting. I'm buzzing to get that promotion and hopefully kick on with two years and see what I can do with both.
Speaker 1:Really, that is so cool, all right. So I'm going to ask you a personal question because this is important and these are referees listening to this podcast. All right, man, so when you get assigned to a National League assignment as an assistant referee, and then also I want you to give compare and contrast to other center referee assignments you have so you get assistant referee, national League, what kind of match fees do they pay you for that?
Speaker 2:so we're looking at roughly. It changes per league, so we look at maybe like anywhere between a hundred dollars to 250 dollars, which is quite nice in terms of going across, and it's not too much different. For if we referee as well, we referee for roughly about a hundred dollars in those leagues as well. As always, there's not a great deal of money in non-league football. We get our little base fee and then we get petrol money that we have to travel together with to save a little bit of money. But I think that's the best time when you're traveling with other people.
Speaker 1:I tell you it is really interesting to me. I've talked to a number of people who referee in England and other countries. Generally speaking, I would say that the referees in England get paid about 20 to 25, if not 30% less than their American counterparts for similar level games. It's interesting how, at the youth level, I think we're paid pretty well these days for academy and for high school matches, even our college matches if you're centering a ncaa college match, it could be anywhere from two hundred dollars to five percent a referee for those matches and and I would think some of the matches that you're doing you got a couple thousand potentially people in the stadium. It's being televised, there's a lot of pressure, whatnot, and to think that it might only be 100 or 125 or 150, it seems really out of balance with the amount of work you need to put in and the commitment you need to have to be able to perform at that level.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, pay is obviously such a big thing, but we're lucky enough that we get a lot of support from the FA as well as the PGMOL. Last year, anyone that got promoted to level four or level three gets sent a free match kit, so for us that's massive. As a PGMO official, I get sent a full kit as well to wear when I go out on the games as well. So, yeah, okay, we probably get paid slightly less. We have access to the FA, who provide us with technology. We get comms kits at the higher levels, we get buzzer flags at the higher levels, as well as stuff like CPD, so they're always sending out clips for us to look at or they're running in-service training events for us at the end of the year. They help us all run with our fitness tests. So they provide a lot of support throughout the year for us. Okay, yeah, the money's not great, but if you want to be a referee, we're provided with so much support from all types of people. That makes life a little bit easier for us.
Speaker 1:That's amazing, I tell you. Thank you so much for bringing that perspective, because that certainly does not happen here in the United States. We've got to get all of our kit. We went ahead and have multiple different types of kit, depending on the league as well, and that's on our dime. Obviously, if you make it to the highest level, the MLS here, which would be our equivalent, it's not an equivalent of the Premier League. They're provided all of their kit there. But outside of that, it's on us to get our comps kits, it's on us to get our flags. We really do not get any of that kind of support and feedback and training and development that comes from the FA or the RA there in England. I think that's just absolutely fantastic, absolutely fantastic, and I'm jealous and I hope that at some point that comes here as well. Do you have a local like a referee association that you have like monthly meetings with or connect with to help you guys with your growth and development?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there's a couple of things as a referee that we can do. We have local RAs that so obviously mine is Brighton that we go support, meet different members from all different places Some new, some old, different places, some new, some old, some pro, some not which is really nice to get a general perspective of what's going on. We all ask each other questions, bring clips as well. We get guest speakers. We're lucky enough that some of the guys from the championship come down and the Premier League come talk to us, give us advice about how to deal with participant behaviour, which is something the FA are really cracking down on. And then we have something called like development groups that each county runs to try and promote people from level six to level five and level four to become county referees, and then, if you're lucky enough, you can be invited to something called the FA core, which is like anyone between level seven and three that are really trying to kick their refereeing on career and getting a little bit more coaching.
Speaker 1:So I do want to ask you a little bit about the culture. You mentioned it briefly about dealing with participant behavior. What are you feeling right now? What is it's so hard, right, like we watch Premier League on the weekend and there's all this venom and animosity towards referees for subjective call here and there. Do you feel that venom and frustration trickles down to the grassroots in some of the matches? You're feeling what is the environment around referees right now for you and your part of the country and England in general, if you can comment on that.
Speaker 2:I think the FA have done a really good job in doing participant behavior over the last couple of years. I don't feel it as much from the players' perspective per se. I think player management as if anyone has watched my youtube videos is probably my strongest suit. I'm able to talk to players, have quite open conversations with them. The coaches are really open as well nowadays that they know that they can ask questions and we'll give honest answers as well, as there is a system that if we do make a mistake, that they can go through and get an official answer. That's at my level anyway. They're a lot of more open, and this is speaking from a semi-professional standard.
Speaker 2:What I tend to struggle with is find the more animosity comes from the crowd. Whether that is because they don't get the same level of education that the FA send to the club, so it doesn't get filtered through then becomes a little bit more difficult because the players get sent. This is what we're doing, this is what the expectation is this year and this is how referees will deal with it. So, therefore, players tend to know what's going on and we explained most of our decisions as you do on a pitch. This is why you're getting a caution. This is what it is. This is the new directive, deal with it. But the fans don't necessarily get that, so they get a little bit more frustrated, I think. But in terms of on the pitch, I think we as an fa have done really well to deal with it and educate the players and the coaches.
Speaker 1:That's so good to hear that communication in match even before the match, just setting up the culture that this is open, that we can have a conversation, that you can ask me a question Please do it respectfully All those things is helpful. I'm glad to hear that the FA is doing that kind of work to support referees and just change the culture between the club, between the referee, because we're all there working together, which I think is so important. I did want to ask you one question because I haven't had anyone in the program yet talk specifically about sin bins. Now, I know in England and I'm not sure if it's throughout England they have implemented sin bins specifically for dissent. Do you use it in some of the leagues that you do, and have you used it? Do you find it effective? Is it challenging? Can you give your feedback on that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I don't use it in the games that I do on a regular basis, but I go and help out the Sunday league and it's only the league below me that have it as well. So I go and help out the Sunday League and it's only the league below me that have it as well. So I'm the first league that don't when I referee. I'm the first league that doesn't have Simbins. The league below do, and I've used it a couple of years before I got promoted as well, and I do think it's a good tool for us.
Speaker 2:We've obviously not just the FA, but I've changed the laws on it, so it's not three yellow cards now. It counts towards their second yellow, which I think will change the perspective again, because sometimes it's a bit of a freebie, if you will, for players to just get a little bit agitated. I think at the start of it it was quite difficult to manage with things like when the players come on because it's game time. But overall, in terms of as a tool for a referee, I think it's great because we can use something called the stepped approach, which is I'm going to bring the captain in and say he's got one more and then we all know he's got 10 minutes off. So therefore, as a captain, you know if they're working with you in a good way, then hopefully they'll get on top of them before you have to.
Speaker 2:And then that's just a last line of defense for you that I've done everything I can. You're gonna have to spend 10 minutes off, and it's been a complicated process. Luckily, whenever I've ever done it, I've used the app because it makes it a lot easier for me, but the I don't use it a lot because I think the threat of it is enough. We ran a stat that says that every time that you've got simbing, I think you're like 33 more likely to concede a goal. So in terms of statistically, it does make a big difference. So, yeah, I think it's been a great addition, for us in the UK anyway.
Speaker 1:That is fantastic, and I just have one more question for you, specifically about you as a referee. These assessments that you're receiving now, these observations obviously you're now looking and doing everything you possibly can to get to that next level and continue to move up as a referee in England. What are the things that the assessors or the observers have given you as opportunities for your development? What are you working on? Where do you think you can grow the most?
Speaker 2:So for me, what I tend to do is each season is different. Each season comes with its new challenges, new directives, new ways of coaching, new ways of refereeing. At the moment I'm working on advantage. I don't. I seem to struggle in playing it too deep in the defensive half and then when I get to the attacking half I don't signal for it. So I'm getting a bit excited.
Speaker 2:But what I tend to do is look at all of my observations throughout the year and pick out some of the trends. So, for example, last year was positioning in and around the middle of the play. I needed to take a step back, let play develop in front of me, so that means I've got the whole thing and I can run into a decision rather than stand in the middle and look around and let play develop around me. Take a step back, see everything, and those are the kind of things that you don't notice in game that obviously people have picked up on, and once is a fluke, twice is probably a pattern, and if the third time it gets picked up in an assessment, it's something for me and my coach to work with you said your coach are you?
Speaker 1:do you have a coach assigned to you?
Speaker 2:I do, yeah. So I'm lucky enough that I get coaching from. I'm in the fa core, so I get coaching. I get assigned a coach who has three other people, so I get to call him after every game. Run through an observation if I've got clips from my game, I can send them to him and he can point out bits and pieces that I necessarily can't see. I'm obviously blessed that my dad is a referee and a referee coach as well, so that we can sit down at the end of a week and be like, okay, let's do this one. I've sent him clips, I've said to him I've got this so wrong and he's texted me back saying I think you need to check it again. I think you might be okay. Okay, so yeah, but I do have a coach assigned, so talking through that is great man, that is so cool.
Speaker 1:I, I love this. I I literally could talk about the differences between in america and england all day long, and I love hearing you. But I really do want to talk a bit about again. It's I. I know people who listen to this podcast and and you've watched all my videos I use it in every single match. But I want to talk about about how did this thing begin? The Ref6 app, this company. Who's behind this thing? Can you give me a little bit of the creation story and what you guys are trying to do there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the CEO and founder or co-founder, hassan he's a referee himself went to university in Loughborough, which is Birmingham way, and it was like a little project he did. He did computer science at uni and for his dissertation he had to build an app, so he came up with this idea. He didn't like writing on paper as a referee, I can do it on a smartwatch. That was the first concept. And then he met the other co-founder, luke, who built the app. He's the tech department and it grew from there. He's the the tech department and it grew from there. And then they hired another couple of developers and then we've grown through.
Speaker 2:Covid everyone was, you know. They loved the app so much that we re-skinned it, rebuilt it, made it better, took everyone's feedback on board, and we're only a small team of six. I don't think people realize how small we are. So it started five, six years ago, probably more than that. Now, eight years ago, I joined in 2019 as an analyst and did marketing, and we've grown from strength to strength and it's a really small team. That's sort of really flown On. Hassan, who is so passionate about refereeing you should probably get him on a podcast one day, because he lives for it, loves it, and his passion comes out when he creates the app. You can see how hard he works on it. So, yeah, that comes out when he creates the app. You can see how hard he works on it. So, yeah, that's the origin story of our app.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I tell you, I'm a big supporter of anyone who's creating things referees who are building things for other referees because we get and you can tell when something's not been made by a referee. When you use, like, a scorecard that's not been made by a referee or something like that, like you just know, or a coin, someone will make a coin who has never been a referee before and it's like the same color on both sides. You can't like what is this Like? How am I gonna use that? Thank you, but I really can't use this. Talk to me about what are some of the most popular features of the app and it cause. It's on your watch, but it's also on your phone. What do people when someone gets a ref six and they download it, and you can download it for free and there are some features that are available free, but what are some of the most popular features? Why do people download ref six?
Speaker 2:yeah, for us, we're the world's greatest timer and I. The only way to describe this in a in an easy way is when you're refereeing a football match on your referee, on a casio or an apple watch. When you to 60 minutes, it ticks over to potentially zero again, or you don't get the right half time if you've played 48 minutes in the first half, whereas what we do is we take the first half, close it off and then we start the timer on 45 to 90 again. And for me, when I'm cautioning players or I can check the time, I can tell you how long is left, the exact minute the caution went in and how long I've got added time, and for me, in terms of player management, that does the job so much easier than having to be like, yeah, give me a second, while I spend five minutes trying to work out how long I've actually got left.
Speaker 2:As well as my post-match admin, I hate team sheets so much pieces of paper that are everywhere and it's just all on my phone. So if anyone does query me, for example, I get an email from the club being like oh, can you just confirm this? It's all on my phone anyway, it's not stuck in my referee bag. So, in terms of admin, they're the great features and for me, if you're trying to progress, your your referee. And we've got the video replay tool which, like I, live on at the moment because it means I don't have to scroll through 90 minutes of footage. It's all clipped out for me. It makes my life so much easier, especially when I have to spend two, three hours a week of analyzing my performance.
Speaker 1:It halves the time I need to do it for okay, I definitely want to talk more about the video replay tool because I've used it personally, but I doubt many people have. Um, but let's go back to the timer one more time. I'm so curious how you set up your watch so. So my watch, I've got the uh, so time remaining is in my is right in the, the big one up top for me yeah so again, it's going to you know, do time remaining.
Speaker 1:Then on the lower left, I do like the running time, like what minute are we in, right, so that's count counting up, and then on my lower, I have, uh, added time. That's where I've got my added time. So when? Where I've got my added time. So when I start doing that, how do you have your watch set up?
Speaker 2:because you can customize it however you want yeah, so I have something called I have elapsed time, so how long total time we've played at the top? And in the green yeah, I have countdown timer, so how long we've got left of the half in the bottom right hand corner and then I've got added time in the bottom left hand corner okay, so we just have our, our top one in the bottom left different.
Speaker 1:I like having the time left in the half, or it's counting down from 45 down to zero up top and then it's got the elapsiner and lower right. I don't know, that's just how I got started, but I find that to be so helpful I can. I seriously it's when you just have a regular watch and you have again, you have to figure out. Okay, let's see, we're playing 40 minute halves. I'm 12 minutes into the second half and oh, it's the 52nd minute. And then you're like, okay, I gotta write this down right here or it gets even further. It's, we're 30 minutes in and I think there was 35 minutes the first half. How much, what? How much time's left, what? It's so big. It's one less thing you have to worry about.
Speaker 1:And sometimes you're out there on the pitch and it's a really hot day and people are like how much time, how much time, how much? That's, oh my god, painful. All right, so during the match wonderful to have, and I also. So I, I've started now I record all of my yellow cards, uh, or any, my discipline on my watch as well, and the score, and it's just nice to not to have to pull out your scorecard again to be able to see those things. But for the yellow cards when I do my match analysis afterwards it shows me where on the pitch those cards were.
Speaker 2:So can we talk a little bit, yeah. So I think there's two ways of going about it. There's's a short-term play, which is I've looked at my stats straight after the game. Did I get wide? How did I feel? So sometimes, when you come off a pitch and you don't have a GPS watch a lot of people don't they go, oh, that was tough and they can't quantify, or it's just a vibe. And then you look at your watch and you've spent 45 minutes in heart rate zone five and you think, oh, that makes a lot of sense now. That's why I'm tired as well. As was I wide? Was I central? What did the game expect in terms of, like, actual fitness as well?
Speaker 2:You can see the increase of sprints by game by game, if that's what you're improving your fitness and how far you've run. And these are the things that you can track. But also, what's really interesting, if you track your cards, you can see over time if there is a certain card you give a lot of. So, for example, last year I gave a lot of c4s, which is delaying the restart in England, and I was asking myself do I really need to be given that many? So therefore, I look back at my clips and I was like, oh, I'm just being really like angry with it, like they're not even really. Is it impactful, is it deliberate, are they? And the answer was no. So I was just giving out cards for the sake of giving out cards. So I then could look back at it and be like, okay, chill out, john, manage the situation, because I was given a lot of you know what we call technical cards and just wasn't needed.
Speaker 2:So it's something that I can look back on and be like, okay, I haven't given it something for violent conduct for a long time.
Speaker 2:Let me refresh my memory on violent conduct. So if it does come around, then I will be prepared for it. So if you head over to the trends page, you can see a. You can filter it by career, by month, by season. So I, every month or so, maybe a couple of months, I go on my trend stats and then I go on my discipline and then from there I can see the amount of cards that I've given. So I'm looking at how many different cards I've given and then I can go and view the games that had the most cards in and therefore I can then go to that game on ref six and then reopen it and then have a look back at where I went wrong not wrong per se, but where I was being a little bit too card happy I think people appreciate how much, as referees, we really think about what happened on the pitch, whether it was that game that you just finished or a game that you might have done a week ago.
Speaker 1:If you're a good referee, you care and you want to do your best and you try and run it back in your mind. So it's so helpful, when you have these tools to really see what was going on in a certain moment, that we made a certain decision.
Speaker 2:That's a really interesting point because, especially as a referee, I don't know how you feel in england. Some people feel like you turn up, you do the game, you get your paycheck and you leave and people don't realize that decisions like that happen. Saturday you're bringing into a monday night, a tuesday night, you're still thinking about these things and we care so much about the game that I think people forget that we go back, we look at these things. I've had sleepless nights where I've gotten offside wrong.
Speaker 1:Like we care so much about being the best that we can that little mistakes like that follow us through for days, yeah, and just think it's so cool that you are providing like real professional level tools to the average grassroots ref like I am, like I actually get to see all of that movement, all that sprint, all of the you know the heart rate information that a professional would get out on the pitch and that's something that a lot of people don't have access to.
Speaker 2:People at the pro level, pro organization itself and the pgmo and people that go to fifa will get all this data given to them. It's something that we can provide grassroots referees that want to progress. They can have that ability to review their performance without having to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on all the latest gear and a sports scientist. We're a sports scientist in your pocket, aren't we that we can give you all this data?
Speaker 1:you just go and go and use it properly I will tell you that I'm a little guilty of sometimes altering my performance on the pitch just to look good. On ref six, I mean I say it like that, like it's a bad thing, but I will do like extra hard sprints to see if I can get it into like the red zone for the sprints run ref six or really making sure that I'm getting wide and gonna have a beautiful heat map at the end of a match oh yeah, that's why I've done 30 40 sprints a game.
Speaker 2:It's not anything for the game. I just want to look good on ref six. Yeah, no, we, I love it. I'm obviously work for f6, but I'm an avid user like it's something that I feel lost without and it's something that in all my games I use all the time. It's part of my kit that has to be packed and has to be ready for when I step on the field.
Speaker 1:Do you have any data at all on like how widely used Ref6 is at this time?
Speaker 2:I do, actually, and it is quite a stat. Since we started in 2017, I believe that is what we started in We've done over one and a half million matches worldwide, so we're not just a small app now. It's great it's been used in I think there was a photo of one of the referees using it in the Asian Cup in the quarterfinals. One of the referees at the Euros was using it. We've refereed in or had referees in stadiums like the is it? Manacanara in Brazil, wembley it's been used there. I went all the way to the. I was in South America last year. I was in the middle of Mexico and a referee was using it there. I went to the Galapagos Islands and there were like a couple of referees that used it there. Honestly, it's everywhere and it doesn't matter what kind of referee you are whether you're a high level referee or a lower level referee everyone's using it now, so it's really great to see that kind of spread across the world as well jonathan.
Speaker 1:This has been an absolutely fascinating conversation, man, thank you so much for joining yeah well.
Speaker 1:I hope you enjoyed today's pod. It is always fun connecting with referees from other parts of the world. There might be some differences, but we all share a special bond. I've reed with people from every part of the world now, but we are united whether we are on or off the pitch, and I just want to say thanks so much to Ref6 for being a supporter of mine for many years. Again, if you guys want to subscribe to Ref6, even if you have already use code REFSNEEDLOVE R-E-F-S-N-E-E-D-L-O-V-E for 10% off your monthly or annual subscriptions to Ref6. And also please support the RefZ2 online store. Check out the new whistle I recently added. I call it the monster because it's so loud and it's crisp. It's so fun. I love it. Pick up some merch if you haven't already. Everything that you buy there gets poured back into making this channel possible. I wish you all the best and I hope your next match is red card free. We'll see you next time.