REFS NEED LOVE TOO
An honest perspective from the 3rd team on the pitch... the referees. Through humor, analysis and education, we are slowly changing how people view referees and officials in all sports. We care and have a love for the game as much as any player or coach. Sometimes even more. Youth soccer (proper football) is a multi-billion $ industry in the US. Tremendous money is spent on players, competitions, travel etc., but almost nothing spent on developing the next generation of referees. I hope that this Podcast inspires, educates and humanizes the next generation of referees for their own development and appreciation from the players, coaches and spectators they need to work alongside.
REFS NEED LOVE TOO
Transforming Soccer Officiating: The Bradwells' Green Card Revolution of the Positive Referee Coalition
What if transforming the culture of soccer refereeing could be as simple as introducing a new card? Join us as we explore this transformative idea with Richard and Will Bradwell, the father-son team behind the Positive Referee Coalition. Richard, a seasoned referee, and his son Will, share their innovative approach of using green cards to promote sportsmanship and respect on the soccer field—a practice Richard first pioneered in 1996 and which Will is now helping to expand. Together, they aim to create a more positive and enjoyable environment for everyone involved in the game.
Hear the inspiring story of a goalkeeper who received the inaugural green card for her resilience, a moment that motivated both teams and set the stage for broader adoption. We delve into the evolving role of referees, moving beyond mere enforcement to becoming ambassadors of positivity and respect. The Bradwells explain how the green card system, once a recreational tool, is now making waves in competitive matches and transforming the attitudes of referees, players, and spectators alike. They also share the early successes from New York, proving the system's potential to enhance soccer officiating and attract new referees to the field with renewed passion.
Discover the various strategies the Positive Referee Coalition is implementing to tackle referee shortages and improve the refereeing environment, from flexible attire to a buddy system for addressing spectator concerns. Learn about the coalition's free certification course and other resources designed to promote positive refereeing. This episode is packed with heartwarming stories and practical insights on how recognizing and rewarding good sportsmanship can revolutionize youth sports and foster a culture of respect and enthusiasm on and off the pitch. Don't miss this enlightening conversation that's sure to change how you view the role of referees in soccer.
A quick note about today's podcast. The guys that I'm interviewing from the Positive Referee Coalition are so hardcore that they actually recorded this on a phone at a soccer field in South Florida. So there is a good chance that during the podcast you are going to hear a random bird screeching in the background. No, the bird is not inside your car. It is actually part of the recording, and I just also want to apologize that maybe the recording is not inside your car. It is actually part of the recording, and I just also want to apologize that maybe the recording is not the highest quality. You know, sometimes, guys, content is more important than audio quality. I hope you guys enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Before we get into today's show, we have a word from one of our sponsors that I'm really excited about. I love the saying necessity is the mother of invention and let me tell you, most assigning platforms out there for officials are brutal. Well, two young men recently out of college decided there had to be a better way to manage officials and get assigned, and they founded a company called Refersports. It simply makes referee management and assigning easy. It's native on a mobile app so you can manage your games whether you're in the office, on a desktop or on the go. It is now the world's fastest growing assigning solution and it's 100% free for assigners. It's a no-brainer to make the switch. It makes assigners easier to work with. I've got a few assigners in my world that are brutal just because their systems are so bad and antiquated. It provides a dedicated integration specialist, so when you make a switch over to refer, it ensures a seamless transition for you and the organization and the officials that you work with, and they support over 25 sports. So if you're signing for soccer, you're signing for softball, you're signing for lacrosse, you can use one platform for everything. Simply put, man, if you want to level up your assigning game and be an easier assigner to work with for the referees and officials that are in your universe, use a tool that makes everyone's life better Refersports. It's spelled R-E-F-R sports. Check it out online or in the app store. It out online or in the app store.
Speaker 1:Hello and welcome to the Refs Need Love 2 podcast, the show that gives you a real, raw and behind the scenes view of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch the referee. I'm your host, david Gerson, a grassroots referee and certified mentor with over 10 years of experience in over 1200 matches under my belt. You can find me at refsneedlovetoocom on Insta, on TikTok and now on YouTube. Today on the show, I am thrilled to have two special guests who are at the forefront of a transformative and aspirational movement in the world of soccer officiating. Please welcome Richard and Will Bradwell, the father-son duo and co-founders of the Positive Referee Coalition. What a beautiful connection with Refs Need Love Too. I'm so excited about this.
Speaker 1:Richard Bradwell spent over 20 years on the pitch as a referee and as an administrator across many roles within AYSO, and understands the joys and struggles that come with being a soccer referee and an administrator both on and off the pitch. As a Florida high school and volunteer AYSO referee, he saw the need to enhance the sport by fostering a more positive, respectful environment for officials. Late one night back in 1996, still in college at that point, after lining several fields to prepare for the next day's games, he and a friend of his came up with the concept of using a green card to recognize exceptional moments of good sportsmanship and started putting it into practice, with immediate positive feedback and how it shifted the attitudes and perceptions of players, coaches and spectators in every match he officiated with his new approach and he coined it the art of positive refereeing. Joining him today is his son, will Bradwell, who shares his father's vision and brings a fresh approach to advancing their mission Now that he has his own son aging at the soccer. He learned about the shortage of referees due to disrespect and abuse and remembered what his dad had done and wanted to bring the concept back to test it out in this new era of youth sports that has only seemed to have gotten worse for referees. Now Will has co-founded the Positive Referee Coalition with his dad, aiming to bring the art of positive refereeing to an easily accessible format and empowering referees across the country to take the concept for a spin, with custom-printed green cards, green referee cards and good sports awards for recipients to keep as a memento of the time they were recognized for their good sportsmanship. Together, richard and Will are making remarkable strides in enhancing the sport of soccer by redefining the role of referees, not just as enforcers of the rules and the laws of the game, but as champions of sportsmanship and integrity. Their ultimate goal is to create a culture where respect and positivity are the norms, ensuring the better game experience for everyone involved, richard, and Will welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1:We're so excited to learn more about your journey and the impact of the Positive Referee Coalition. So happy to be here. Yeah, no, I am absolutely thrilled. This is like everything that I believe in, everything that I support, and it is really interesting how, being a referee, everything that I support and it is really interesting how, being a referee, we can change the feeling of a game. Now, we can't change the outcome of the game, where we shouldn't be changing the outcome of the game, but we can change the tenor of the game and the feeling and the relationships we have between the players and the coaches and the spectators. So I really believe in this. Can you just start by telling us about the positive referee coalition and what inspired you to found this initiative?
Speaker 2:As I became the commissioner for a soccer program, one of the biggest issues we always had was getting referees to show up in the games and show them up in time and everything, and we had to have some kind of a way to encourage. I was in a referee program, it was all volunteers, so we had to come up kind of a way to encourage. I was in a referee program, it was all volunteers, so we had to come up with some way that would make it work in Ohio to come out and take home this responsibility, get up on a Saturday morning when they don't work at all week and they'd rather stay in bed, come out and do this thing. We had to make it as positive as possible and we were stuck always giving yellow and red cards all the time, so it wasn't fun to be a referee, so we motivated them whatever to come up with a better way to be able to recruit referees. And the best way when everything was negative, let's try positivity. And then the whole thing just went to a green card and just look at ways to recognize good behavior rather than what was negative and we're like, well, let's have a response on the pit and my goodness, did it ever, from the very, very first time we experimented. And every time since then, when referees got involved, all we hear is wow, I wish we'd have thought of this sooner. Time has come, let's make soccer green again or let's make soccer green period.
Speaker 2:The soccer green card puts a tangible thing into the whole system of here's something that recognizes that, here's something that recognizes that, here's something that promotes that. And at the end of the game the kid takes that card home. It's not something to show. Give that to the child. That child, young, adult takes that home and they'll never throw it away. They'll show that to everybody that ever comes to their house, every relative that ever talked to. They are so proud of this moment where they were recognized in public for being good. And when does that happen? For anybody, part of it is to get recognized. If they just behave really good and look for a way to be exceptionally good, then they get recognized in front of everybody.
Speaker 2:And in the early days we'd say you take this card and take it to the refreshment stand. It will give you ice cream or whatever you hop on, whatever you want, because you have to give the card back up. No kid ever went to the refreshment stand and tried to give their and wanted to give their card out. Only one time I happened to be there. The kid went over and got his stuff and the end of the second time to take card away, the kid like gave the stuff back. It was like starting to cry. He did not and he's 11 years old. This is such a valuable thing.
Speaker 1:So tell me more about the green card, because I've got red and yellow cards that are all about discipline and this is what I bring to the field when I'm a referee. And I've got these things in my pocket and one of them is a warning and one of them is like awful. Oh, my gosh, you're sent off of here. Talk to us more about the green card initiative. I want to understand. So how do you utilize it and what impact do you think the green go out?
Speaker 3:there before the start of the game, before you even have the meeting with the captains. You want to approach the game as a positive referee. On our quarter time line we go through like the four steps before you even get to the pitch meeting with captains and everybody else and so you want to first be open communication, let everybody know that you're out there as a referee to support the sport You're not out there to be the bad guy and communicate openly with everybody. When you do get to the captains and you're presenting your card, you always have your yellow and red cards. You can just show them I have all the cards I need for the game, and they'll, of course, ask what is that green card about? What is that for? I haven't seen that before.
Speaker 3:So you tell them it's about recognizing moments of exceptional positive. Seen that before? So you tell them it's about recognizing moments of exceptional positive sportsmanship displayed in the match setting. So when they hear that, they know what that means. They know what good sportsmanship is, but they've never had a way to be recognized for it. Everything is always just about the score in the game and about how many goals they prevent if they're in defense, but there's never been something that they could be tangibly recognized, especially by the referee, for doing something good. So when you go out there just having that as a little intro just to the captains, the word spreads the rest of the players, the word spreads to the coaches and everything, and sometimes you can pull it out blindly.
Speaker 3:When you see a moment of positive sportsmanship, recognized you it out, spectators that may not have been there pre-game. Everybody's confused so you have to let the players know on the field so it doesn't affect their play. Then you do it when it's not in the moment of like actual course of play to distract anybody. There's no official restart for a green card being shown, so it has to be like kind of slipped in when appropriate. But all about recognizing that. And then we also have now the good sport awards where the referee can fill in on the back of it their name, the player's name, the remarks on what they saw that player do, and then they can keep this forever as a little trophy of that time that they were actually seen doing something good and being recognized for it, so something they can always take home with them.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic. Talk to me about the concept of positive refereeing. What exactly is a positive referee, and how does that concept differ from traditional refereeing?
Speaker 2:Get to the game early. First thing you do is you get to the game all the time early. Nothing's worse than starting. Everybody's out in the field. Where's the referee? He comes running out there. You're all ready. It's going to be a bad thing already.
Speaker 2:Get there early, walk around, look for people to talk to, introduce yourself Out of your foot, pull your socks, just go. Hey, man, I'm out here. Where's the water? I'm thirsty. How can I get some water?
Speaker 2:Put them in a position where they're helping you instead of against you, and explain to them that it's kind of a way I talk loud. I explain to them, man, I'm looking forward to this day. I'm the only person that really cares about the kids out here, nobody else. The coaches weren't sitting waiting and the parents were whatever and the players whatever, but the referee is the only person really out here. If they're supposed to protect the dial from injury and if the kid goes down, who blows the whistle to stop the game? Who's the one who signals for the medical staff to come up? The most important position on the field is the referee. Okay, that's the most important position on the field, the most unappreciated position on the field, but we're trying to turn that around. Soccer needs love. Soccer's referees expect love. When you start using the green color, you're going to expect people to come up and say, man, that was great. You didn't blow the whistle, hardly at all. You never ran, but the game was so perfect. Because most of the people in the stands are impaired, they don't know what you talked about like. We'll explain what happened. They have no idea what's going on in the minds of all these kids. They're actually looking for ways to be good that they never even thought about. So their minds are preoccupied with that and I'm not making up, but you could actually watch the gears in their mind as they're playing, trying to figure out a way. Instead of trying to figure out a way to get away with stuff, with the referees not looking all the other games they play, now they're looking for the referee's attention because they want to change everything.
Speaker 2:I can tell you the first game I ever did, the guy embedded me in the game, handed me some cards through the fence of a high school game. I said okay. He said, lady, come up with a number. The game goes 10-0, right, the goal 10-0. And I award a green card the first green card in this.
Speaker 2:As the kids were shaking hands, I gave the green card to the goalkeeper of the losing team. Okay, because the whole game they're just hammering at her, just goals. But she must have made 20 saves. But she never complained to the defender that she'd do better, never got mad or nothing. She was like I'm having the greatest time of my life. She smiled because she's getting more active than she ever had. So anyway, I explained the green card real briefly. Take her out and their teammates carry her around the field as the other team was applauding. Can you imagine that for a game where she just lost and nothing, that was our first green card ever and I called the guy up and gave it. I said you won't believe what happened today. And I described it. He says I can't wait till Saturday. I can't wait to referee some game. He does everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, fantastic. So talk to me a little bit about where you guys use the green card. Do you see it as something that is really for younger children that is just starting out, U6, U8, U10, something that can be used all the way up to U18 and even adults?
Speaker 2:saw it originally. This is a kind of a recreational kind of a thing. We need to get referees out there. But most of the incredible stories we had come from competitive matches where we never really expected it to be even used in this way, and it's profound stories that come back about how it was used in competitive situations. One thing in New York it really got this thing kicked off.
Speaker 2:It was a referee association up in the Hudson Valley, new York, 500 referees and they used it in an unbelievably competitive way and from the previous year when there was a lot of problems, they introduced a green card referee and a positive referee, coalescing concept before a game to 300 people and this game went like a joy. And there's a picture of a kid receiving the green card in the news when he wrote an incredible article about this. So you're going to make this happen.
Speaker 2:You're going to help make this really catch on. People look forward to a refereeing game. We did a clinic in the 1990s I guess it was 1998 in the AYSO. We did a clinic in the 1990s I guess it was 1998 in the AYSO. We did a referee clinic on this and everybody couldn't wait to go referee again. They were like, come on Before that. Oh, I got to referee again this Saturday. They couldn't wait and people that never refereed in a game wanted to go out and ref. And you tell them to get this.
Speaker 1:Well, let's talk about the game, so help me understand. So how widespread the green card, so this is something you started in 96 and started using out in the field through AYSO in your area. Do you have any idea how many or what regions of the country utilize this or what leagues utilize this, or how many referees are using the green card actively?
Speaker 2:in games.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right now it's pretty early on I did an experiment. I'm on a couple of Facebook groups for like parents and soccer and stuff. I just posted just no comment, just like a picture of a green card. If you saw this help in the game, what would you think this means About? Out of 32 comments on it, about 17 were like good sportsmanship. That's good. We're above average recognition that it's for good sportsmanship. The others are like that player needs to talk to their parents to get them to quiet down in the stands because they're being disruptive. Another one's a soft send off. So there's not a very uniform recognition of it currently, but it has been something experimented with in Italy in the Serie B I believe they had a green card that they used for good sportsmanship recognition. Another international league used a white card for good sportsmanship recognition. I think Canifa is experimenting with some stuff too, so it's still not a uniform approach, but that's why we want to get all the wheels lined up. So we have a free course on our website to go through what it means. We have.
Speaker 3:I'm sending out free cards to anybody that wants to try it out in their area. So, like I showed you the picture of the player in this UPSL Division II match, brian Baer, up in the Hudson Valley Soccer Referee Association, reached out to me back in July like I gotta try that out. I rushed some cards up to him. He got a different type for the match and he said it went amazing. The previous time these two teams had met it ended in mass confrontation and so I was like this is the perfect test for it. So he took it out there and everything went great. The game went smoothly, everybody in the stands super happy to to see the game play out as it did. We have another AYSO region over in California that has about 30 referees sending them out a big pack to get all of them up there. Your friend, scott Millsap from Roughing with the Stappers I got him shipped a bunch of cards a couple weeks ago so he's looking to use them when he gets down on the pitch soon. I have another referee in Land O'Lakes, florida, who got a bunch and all sorts of levels from rec up into semi-pro and stuff and he's excited to use that main match that he centers. So we're really about giving the tools to everybody to take it for a drive themselves. Gerson, you actually have a package probably getting to you on Tuesday, so you'll have some green cards and good sport awards on hand to take a protest and let us know how it goes in your local area.
Speaker 3:And we're so excited, like you said in the intro, my son turns five in December so as I'm like, oh, he's going to be getting soccer I played soccer since I was four years old on this field that we're behind right now, I probably took my first steps. I was out here at three days old because my older brothers had a soccer match, so I know we're a soccer family. As I was getting back into seeing soccer and coming up and bringing this concept back, seeing your channel and how much recognition that referees are getting nowadays that they deserve to be appreciated for the role that they do. And I'm like we actually have the tool that can actually make it tangible for those referees out there to show that they are different. They have a different mentality because so much baggage that comes with being a referee, because they're not looking at you as a referee, they're looking at you as every referee. By setting yourself apart, you can really change the conversation in a positive way with everybody involved.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and referees historically the one authority figure you can yell at and abuse in public. You can't do that to the police, the teachers or anybody in the party but a referee there again you can yell at that guy. That's publicly acceptable. What's not publicly acceptable? Not less. And not that you're trying to get referees to get in court so you can run a program. You can't have that be acceptable.
Speaker 2:And it's funny as we introduce this in conversations around dinner to people that aren't even into soccer. Not one person ever goes. Oh, that's who that's reading. Everybody goes. Wow, everybody likes it immediately and they encourage us to follow up. And I'm so glad I left the game. I'm in my 70s now and I left the game for a while and then the game, whatever happened. Then Will said Dad, we should bring this back and this is going to be a great thing working together on this. And now let's see that initial response. When we first started it back then I did high school games for 15 years Without asking for permission. I just started doing it. Babu just said no, so I just started doing it in games and the response was like so good and really competitive. I did it for 15 years in Miami, but nobody English is a primary language, but this card went right to the heart of everybody. They knew it, they got it and they wanted it, and we were the ones that gave them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's fantastic. I mean, I can tell you there's probably a lot of referees who are listening to this channel right now, who are experienced refs and like, oh my gosh, I would get in so much trouble if I used another card on the pitch, especially USSF. Ussf is you can't use comms, you can't do this, you can't do that, you can't use foam like they're very specific about what you can and can't do. But I actually in high school officiating, in particular middle school. I think there's so many opportunities where a card like this would be appreciated and really valued because, quite honestly, I referee a lot of high school games.
Speaker 1:The teams are not well matched, teams are getting blown out Sometimes. It's just not that serious, it's not that competitive. These kids are doing it as just a spring sport to stay in shape for fall football season or something like that. But there are moments in time on the pitch where you really see players being respectful, showing sportsmanship, helping other people up, being considerate of others, and that's the type of thing you would like to, instead of only recognizing that discipline. I had to discipline someone today that we could record hey, this coach or this player did something really good today, really special. They made the environment around the game we love better. They were a leader on the pitch showing great sportsmanship and respect and care for an opponent.
Speaker 1:I wish there was a way formalized that we could recognize this much like the green card. I think it's fantastic. Can we talk about this is very interesting this whole concept of you guys seeing the referee being more than just an administrator of the laws of the game, because it's different right. So how do you see the role of referees evolving with the adoption of quote positive refereeing and the green card? Do you see the referees being more than just, like, the adjudicators of the laws in the game? How else do you see refs possibly having an impact on the environment for youth athletes?
Speaker 3:So one thing that people commonly forget is that the referee is out there, like my dad said earlier, to ensure the safety of every player out there on the pitch. That's why the fouls and everything are called. It's because it's not against the player that committed the foul, it's in protection of all the other players on the pitch. So when a referee is out there only being seen as enforcing the laws, they're forgetting that they're actually enforcing the safety and ensuring that every player that goes out there onto the pitch can rest assured that they'll be able to leave the pitch safely and healthily and not have injury because some other player was seeking to do harm in line with winning the match. So the referee is the only person out there that has that authority to one call out the negativity but also to reward and bring light to those moments of positive sportsmanship more in line with the spirit of the game, not just the laws of the game.
Speaker 2:And if there's lightnings happening, who can call the game for lightning? It's not the coach. In the first half we're the 1-0 lead. He's sure not going to want that game to stop. Let the referee make that call. There's not any other reason to protect everybody that's associated with that game from horror. The green card gets a tangible way of reflecting that. Here you go, take this home and show it to Grandma and Grandpa. Hold the card, show what you just got today. That's the whole deal. Next thing you know you start going to games and hey, you're the green card referee. People start knowing who you are. You're welcomed at the game. Oh, we like you little nine-year-old. They remember you being the nice referee. I used to wear a Burbank and used to give out watches. I think it was one of the-.
Speaker 3:Crusty the Clown it was like Green watch.
Speaker 2:Well, I was at the beginning like when Wiltshire, I would fan my cards out. They'd see the green card like that, here's my watch. They'd come and laugh or something. The kids were all tense before the game. I'm the referee, they're laughing, there's Jake in hand. It's not a hostile environment from the day on. It's a fun day on the pitch when you're praying and we're all going to go home safe. We're not're gonna go home or stretcher. That's our downing rep. Dimension never gets. That's what that we don't go home yeah, I, yes, I.
Speaker 1:I would say having a positive, friendly attitude pre-match and then on the pitch is so outrageously important, no matter how competitive the environment is. I, I think that's so critical. It really does take the edge off the players, takes the edge off the coaches, and then even on the pitch as well. It's part of my pregame with the teams. It's like, hey, this nice, calm, friendly voice I'm using with you right now it's the same one I'm going to use on the pitch. Please reciprocate, use the same one with me. If you genuinely have a question, ask me a question. I'm happy to explain. I like all of that stuff. It changes the whole match.
Speaker 1:I had a young girl yesterday who was being fouled. Now, this was a center mid and she was being pulled and I'm giving her time to potentially play out of it because we're in the center of the pitch. She could play a killer ball and spring one of her attackers in for a score. So I didn't blow the whistle immediately, but she's definitely being pulled, her jersey's being tugged and eventually I blow the foul and as the two girls are breaking up, the girl who's being fouled gives a little bit of push off and I was like, hey, let me handle that, it wasn't so bad, I needed to card it. They didn't start going after each other, but during the match, because she's a center mid and she's around me a lot, she's like, hey, so sorry about that.
Speaker 1:I was like, oh yeah, just the retaliators always get carded, but because we had a relationship before the match and even during the match I'm always talking to the players and, with a smile on my face, it just opens it up for them to be able to chat back and keep everything cool during the match. I didn't have a single card that entire game and we're talking U19, girls Academy, the highest level of competition and no cards, and I think that's because of the environment that we're setting. I do have a question about and again, respect for referees, because we're talking about what we're doing on the pitch and what we're trying to do to create a positive environment. Do you think respect for referees is so crucial in youth sports, and how does your initiative around the Positive Referee Coalition specifically try and reinforce respect on the pitch for referees?
Speaker 2:No games, no matches without referees, and you have to explain that to the youngest players.
Speaker 2:This game is only for the hat that person, that man or woman Von Lusso, to come out here and provide a pass. So be nice. Okay, now I always with the referees. Listen, let's have a little game between you and me, the referee. I don't really like blowing the whistle in your face and embarrassing you all going off. Let's see how's two times you can make me blow a whistle. Do I really have to blow the whistle when the ball goes out of bounds? Do I really? Do you know who I am? Do I have to blow the whistle? Do I have to go through all of it? How about if the ball goes out? You pick it up and give it to the other side? What would happen then? Now you pick it up and give it to the other side. What would happen then? It would blow everybody in the stands' mind. I can only give you a green card. The whole game would just be elevated to a whole different level, just like that. So let's see if I don't roll the whistle. Let's see if I don't roll the whistle.
Speaker 2:I got laughed at when they did the state championship on your Nike. Girl. I did a game. It's an easy to worry hostile in an easily hostile environment. I give the game. People say you didn't move, you didn't blow the whistle and I'd never seen a game so well. What was the deal? And then I told them. And the girls go yeah, he's a green card referee. These girls are bitter to me. Come up and explain it to their parents. Oh yeah, he's a green card referee. They didn't even know me before the game.
Speaker 1:Now, I'm their best friend. What are some of the biggest we want?
Speaker 2:to send these cards to everybody. We don't want to make any money on this thing. We're trying to get this thing out. What we're looking for is a national sponsor. We can send these green cards to everybody. Just try them out. That's where we're at right now. We don't want to be looking at all trying to capitalize and make some money and all that. No, that's not our motivation at all. We don't need that. We're looking at this this year. I can tell you I'm excited about going to do a game screen card.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm thinking about how I would only give it one that I signed to a player and it was a red card, because he completely earned the red card. But I will say he knew he earned it. You know he smiled as he walked off the pitch because he was breaking up a promising attack in a one goal game. And it was a second yellow card, like he knew it, and after the game is coming up for pictures, whatnot, and I signed it and took a picture with him. But I think giving out a green card and having them keep that probably a little bit better. Can we talk a little bit about the challenges that referees face today, because we are in a referee shortage, you may have heard, and it is hard keeping referees on the pitch. How do you think the Positive Referee Coalition can address some of these challenges?
Speaker 2:Everybody loves positive reinforcement and this is where you're going to get it like never before, especially in an environment where it's the last place you are, and we believe a referee should wear hats if they wish as well. Another reason one of the problems I had recruiting was they were done unspoken things. A lot of referees don't like wearing shorts.
Speaker 2:A lot of referees in the ball. They can't be in the hot Miami sun for four hours and refereeing a game without being physically damaged but you're not allowed to wear hats and you have to wear shorts. I think we have a little bit of freedom in that to protect the referees and it occurred to me on the field some archaic kind of rituals that would disturb.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I'm getting more respect from the sidelines. I follow the offside page on Facebook and Brian Barlow and everything that he's doing with showcasing all the bad things. Like he pays $100 per clip to anybody that gets featured in highlighting to bring light to how bad some of these parents are on the sidelines. I think the other side of it something that can be done as well highlighting moments of good sportsmanship. I go on YouTube and search sportsmanship and soccer and there's videos with millions of views of just clips of professional-level teams, just the moments where those players are having moments of good sportsmanship. I watched the Olympics. Comcast had a big commercial centered on sportsmanship and when the young kids see the players at the top levels being recognized for those just being good, highlighting that and instilling in the next generation the desire to be good sports.
Speaker 3:The referees have a unique position in being the closest person to the action on the pitch to be able to see those things and out of mutual respect, the players need to respect the referees. The referees can also respect the players by acknowledging that and witnessing that and providing reinforcement for those good behaviors. So the respect comes full circle there. I know a lot of places. The referees aren't supposed to talk to the parents, they're supposed to be the walls. You have to go to the coaches anything you say to the spectators. But, like my dad, in one of his other courses that he did up in Atlanta a couple years back, he had a whole thing about the buddy system where you have the referees on the field but you have a friend that's a friend of yours. It's just going around the stands.
Speaker 3:Just be like hey, I know the referee in the center. If you have any questions, instead of embarrassing him out there by yelling all this kind of stuff, just ask him after the game. We're human, come out, talk to us and we can straighten it out. Maybe there's a change in the laws and the person that's on the sideline, your buddy, can tell them instead of them continuing to escalate. Because one of the hardest things is when a referee just has their ears closed and just focus on the game. Put them out. People that feel ignored. Just it's a fuse that's just going down and down and as the game goes it can explode, and so by having somebody out there on the sidelines that just defuse that, just put it out, it can do wonders and sometimes you can do it before the game by just letting them know hey, after the game I'll be there, I'll be here, I'll stick around. I'm not running out to my car unless you're chasing me, but let me know if you have any questions. I'm here to support this game. I love this sport.
Speaker 2:I'll explain that call to you, oh, and we'll discuss it. Maybe you can convince me I was wrong. I'll listen. We'll talk after the game, Please.
Speaker 2:And I forgot about the buddy system. We brought that up. That was my favorite thing, that I had a friend who would go and somebody started. We just casually saw them and said, hey, get the fuck on your break, Danny, and just give them the thing I would. It was nobody yelled at me, I would.
Speaker 2:After a while they were so obnoxious I would go over and I would confront the person. I said listen, I really can't understand what you're saying. Are you offering me something to drink? It's so hot. I really can't understand what you're saying. And they're not expecting a joke or something. So they're kind of like it's funny Instead. But it's funny instead of being like our guests, all puffed out ready to blow up at you when you come over, they just flake. The next thing, I get it now and you go back out and save them the embarrassment or giving them the stage. Even grandstanding, literally grandstanding. Even more against Again, yelling at referees is not something that universally is frowned upon, how accepted. So you have to understand that going in yelling at referees is not something that universally is frowned upon how accepted. So you have to understand that going in, we're just going to jump on your side because you're a referee, you want to be a nice guy. They're used to not liking you and those referees I know are red card freaks.
Speaker 2:They love giving red cards. They love you. They couldn't so hard. Oh my god, my referee loved being that policeman. That couldn't get the doubt. There's a policeman on the field yelling at a 10-year-old kid. Once they get the red and the green card, they're a whole personality change. You just want to be in charge and you don't have to be a negative uber of meanness to be in charge. Be in charge in a different way, like any kindergarten or grade teacher they're nice people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is interesting. I know assessors these days are looking for referees to be a positive influence on the pitch and to smile and I know at regionals this year one referee told me that he got dinged on his assessment post-match because he wasn't smiling and putting out a positive demeanor. And I see that all the time in the MLS. Now the MLS referees are very different than they were 10 years ago. You see a lot more calm, chill smile, even internationally as well. Look at Simone Marcinak, the referee who did the last World Cup. Again, it's a much more positive feeling coming off that referee, which is so important. I will tell you just one note.
Speaker 1:You talk about walking around the sidelines as being a buddy. I was like the referee whisperer, of course, for my son when he played for 10 years and seriously I'd have people coming up to me all the time asking, hey, what happened there? Why do you call that? And I could explain it. So I think what he saw I didn't say what they saw and I didn't say objectively this, what happened. Sometimes I could do that, but I would say, based on where that was and where the contact was, here's what that referee might have seen there and everyone's okay. It's certainly offside, because I'm always looking at the second to last opponent as opposed to where the ball is, anticipating the play. I was able to give some feedback on offside.
Speaker 1:But it was so helpful for the parents on my team as opposed to just sitting there stewing and being angry about something that didn't understand. They got a little bit of an explanation and it was like helpful. They had a deeper understanding of the laws of the game, a deeper understanding of the considerations for things like a handball, and they were able to enjoy the match more and not harbor like a hatred or anger towards the referee. But when you're a parent and you don't have someone providing that information in that context, it just builds, builds throughout the match and overflows out loud with just a lack of understanding and frustration about calls that are being made or not being made.
Speaker 1:But having someone you can talk to or answer some questions, particularly in a big match, would be really helpful. I think clubs would be well-served to maybe having buddies walking around. I think that's so fantastic. I have a couple more questions for you right here as we come to the close here. What message do you want to leave with referees, coaches, parents and players who might be listening to the podcast. What's the most important thing that you want them to know about? The Positive Refere, referee coalition and the green card?
Speaker 2:the game doesn't end when you blow the whistle. Okay, especially if there's an incident where you just talked about, that's going to be discussion, that dinner takes. That's going to be discussion at the practices, discussion for the next game. You've got to cut that off early, like you said playing it. So they're not that. You've that referee. Yeah, he thought they can't. Now I understood the referee. He said the time to explain that to me. He saw their daughter and he took the time. He's a really good referee, that person. He took the time to explain. I never realized it offside or this and that and everything. The ball had to be 100% over the line.
Speaker 2:I like that referee. And now that dinner table discussion, that practice session is not about how terrible that last game was robbed because of a terrible, stupid referee that hates them. Now a whole different thing. So this carries on game after game, season after season as a whole region. Adopt the green card thing. You put green corner flags, you put green stuff everywhere. This is a green field. This is where positive refereeing is recognized. Come here with the fracker at it. Everything is constantly hammering that in. It doesn't take much. People love to be positive. People love to be positive. It's going to be hard to create. It's something that's not created often enough. Once it's there, people just jump right in. Everybody loves it. At the end of the game, everybody's happy and hugging and typing and shaking their hands. I can go on, I can go on and on.
Speaker 1:I hear you.
Speaker 2:This is just the beginning of something that could really not just soccer, but all sports. You start looking at a good way to not hurt the other player. Not make a fool out of yourself being negative. Make a fool out of yourself being negative. Make a hero out of hero, out of yourself being positive instead of a fool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, think away who's stuck behind a rug. Yeah, I mean, I tell you it's so funny. The majority of videos that I receive, where people send me stuff asking me to comment, are on U12 and below. So 11-year-old, 10-year-old, U9. I get nine-year-old U9 videos sent to me and I'm like bro, it's just not that big of a deal Whether a referee called a foul or didn't call a foul, or you didn't make it to the semifinal in this U8 tournament.
Speaker 1:Get some freaking perspective. The most important thing that can happen out of that kid playing that match at eight or nine years old is that they have fun, that they learn something. They learn how to be a good teammate. They learn how to be a good teammate. They learn how to develop some, some positive mindset and, you know, learn just a good soccer iq. It's like they work hard. They learn grit and resilience. That is the most important thing that happens here.
Speaker 1:But I think the parents and the coaches by extension as well wind up getting so fixated on the outcome and so fixated on one particular play that a referee might make and all of a sudden develop a victim mentality. We lost because of this one call. No, you didn't. The match is 60 minutes, 70 minutes 80, 90, whatever. You had plenty of opportunities to pass, shoot, tackle, score, all those types of things. Opportunities to pass, shoot, tackle score, all those types of things. To get so upset about a referee's individual call, you are teaching all of the wrong lessons. So I really do think that in 98% of leagues and games that are across youth sports, that adopting a mindset around positive refereeing and positive play and sportsmanship, that's the right message. How can we focus on developing the right behaviors, the right values, the right ways to treat each other, the right ways to compete, to be successful in life?
Speaker 2:And I think that's why this is so important. Have that goodness come naturally. Everybody loves award shows. Everybody loves to see other people get awarded. They were like they don't even mind. But when do you get to be an award? Or when do you get to be a recipient of an award? Very rarely, but everybody loves awards and this kind of ties that all in too. Now you're like an award You're giving. People love getting stuff, they love getting an award. I love giving an award. People love seeing people get an award.
Speaker 2:One of my last thoughts is it was a game, it was a world cup. I think it was a qualifier. A few years ago, rinaldo was, I don't know his name, cavani yeah.
Speaker 2:Cavani, Cavani. I don't remember that Cavani was playing hurt. It was his big moment on the state against Ronaldo. He outplayed Ronaldo, he made Ronaldo look unbelievable and he was so fatigued he collapsed on the field. I'll never forget it. You may remember this moment. Ronaldo came over Nobody around him helps Cavani ups, Put his arm around his shoulder and then scorched him off the field with standing ovation. To me that's the green card personified at the highest. And they're not all lost that game and he acknowledged by that good sportsmanship. It's okay to lose. He was outplayed that day and he recognized that To the world the highest plate, the most, the best soccer player that any kid could ever want to be. And out of the moment, natural. He went over and helped up his art rival in a World Cup qualifying game, World Cup elimination. There was a knockout round and he went over and helped him up and the stand and showed the stand. Everybody was crying and applauding.
Speaker 1:I said, man, they're at the cover of our green card book, right there well, can you guys tell our listeners where can they learn more about the positive referee coalition and the green card?
Speaker 3:so everything's available at positive refereeorg. We have a course on there. It's free, it's under 10 minutes. You can go through it at it's four videos. There's a little certification court, certification evaluation at the end. You go through, you submit that and you can print out your own certificate. I didn't bring one, but you can just print your own, write in your own name and date on there and everything, and then you just send me a DM. We're also on Instagram and Facebook at Positive Referee. We also have a YouTube channel, positive Referee, and anybody that completes the course we'll send you out cards. We also have referee patches so you can say that you're a certified positive referee and we also have these business cards that you can hand out to the spectators, fellow referees, administrators in leagues, or it shows that you're a certified positive official and on the back there's a little scan code that they can just scan and go to a little introductory video about positive refereeing and then it links either to the course or to register their interest, their league or an organization that wants to be a part of it. Now we can get in contact, ship you out a bunch of cards to start rolling it out with some of your referees.
Speaker 3:Right now we're at the stage of getting it out into the public's hands and sometimes things work if they get pulled up to the top levels Instead of being pushed down from above.
Speaker 3:We're trying to initiate like a grassroots movement around it and have proof of concept so that we can approach USSF and all NCAA for collegiate level and high school level across the country.
Speaker 3:Because when you go on any of those organizations' websites, everybody talks about sportsmanship, everybody talks about wanting to improve sportsmanship, bring lights to sportsmanship, but there's nothing been tangible about it and that's what we want to bring to everybody so they can test it out for yourself and see what a difference it makes when you can actually acknowledge and reciprocate that sportsmanship to the players and to the coaches. And even if you have a spectator that's out there, always being on your side, being on the referee side you showed this to a spectator all of a sudden. All the other spectators that were loud and being annoyed. They're going to want to be like wait, can I get one of those? What do I need to do? So anybody that's out there that wants to give this a try, dm me. We're also positivereferee at gmailcom. Send me an email and I'll be happy to get you all set up and take it from there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one more short story I'd like to share, if I can. The kids pick it up real quick. I did the state championship under-12 girls game. Girl kicks the ball, hits the goalie right in the chest. Goalkeeper falls down, knocks the wind at her. The ball's sitting there right in front of the goal. This girl's a competitive player. I've known these girls since she was five. Instead of going to kick the ball of the goal, this girl's a competitive player. I've known these girls since she was five. Instead of going and kicking the ball in the goal, she goes up to the goalkeeper and gets down on one knee and like holds her hand. Are you okay? I'm dead.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, this is beautiful, I have a green card. I raised a green card over my head. Oh my God, the parents went crazy. What are you doing? What's going on? And the little girl turns around, stands up and looks back and all these parents are going it's a green card for being good. And everybody just stopped and started applauding. I said wow, this is a magical thing, this green thing. That little girl could have scored that Golden State Championship, overridden by her desire to show how good of a person she was, unconsciously perhaps, because I don't- know, I don't think she even expected it.
Speaker 2:I think she naturally felt empathy for that goalkeeper and then the green card was a result of it.
Speaker 1:Yes, she is a competitor, but she didn't want to win at the expense of someone else's safety and it seemed like she cared more about that other little girl's well-being than just scoring a goal in an important game. And, mind you, again, I recognize that soccer is the most meaningless thing. Right, it means more than everything, but it's also it means less than something such as someone's physical wellbeing, and she recognized that right then and there. It was more important to check on that little girl than it was to score that goal, and it takes a really big person to do that. Guys, I love it. Richard and Will, thank you so much for joining me today on the Rest Need Love To podcast. This is such an exciting initiative in the world of sport Forget about just youth sport the idea of being a positive and a good sportsman, sportswoman on and off the pitch, is so huge and I do believe, like you guys, that the referee can be a key component of this, reinforcing that good behavior when they see it, as opposed to only being there to reinforce bad behavior and give warnings and send people off. So nice that you guys have changed the game in a positive way For everyone out there listening again. I hope you enjoyed today's pod. Please support the Refs. Need To store online.
Speaker 1:Check out the new whistle I just recently added. It is so loud and crisp. I had someone actually just messaged me this week that another referee on an adjacent field who uses a Volkeen whistle came over to ask that referee what whistle they're using, because they loved it so much Just hearing it. So pick up some merch if you haven't already. People are already starting to order their early Christmas sweaters. So, yeah, everything gets. You know the whistle could be stopping it and then give a green card, certainly, but you know, definitely pick up some merch if you haven't already. Everything gets poured back into this channel, making it possible. I wish you all the best and I wish your next match is red card free. We'll see you next time you.