REFS NEED LOVE TOO
An honest perspective from the 3rd team on the pitch... the referees. Through humor, analysis and education, we are slowly changing how people view referees and officials in all sports. We care and have a love for the game as much as any player or coach. Sometimes even more. Youth soccer (proper football) is a multi-billion $ industry in the US. Tremendous money is spent on players, competitions, travel etc., but almost nothing spent on developing the next generation of referees. I hope that this Podcast inspires, educates and humanizes the next generation of referees for their own development and appreciation from the players, coaches and spectators they need to work alongside.
REFS NEED LOVE TOO
Decades of Dedication: Bryan McDermott on Referee Assigning, Mentorship, and Georgia's Soccer Legacy
What motivates someone to remain dedicated to soccer for over four decades? Discover the answer as we sit down with Bryan McDermott, a cornerstone of Georgia's soccer community. Bryan shares his journey as a coach, referee, mentor, assigner, and board member, offering a comprehensive look into the life of an individual who has given so much to the sport. From his early motivations to the complexities of being a referee assigner, Bryan's insights are invaluable for anyone interested in the behind-the-scenes work that keeps the soccer community thriving.
Ever wondered about the logistical chaos behind assigning referees to soccer games? Bryan walks us through the tangled web of systems that game officials that referees must navigate each week. We discuss how disjointed platforms and communication methods create a frenzied environment for assigners, highlighting the urgent need for a more streamlined approach. Bryan also uncovers the financial dynamics of referee assigning, revealing how assigners are compensated and the unique challenges they face, especially during tournaments where scheduling changes and referee shortages are commonplace.
The journey of a referee is far from straightforward, and Bryan sheds light on the development process, emphasizing the role of mentorship and strong recommendations in advancing one's career. We explore the evolving maturity and resilience of young referees, noting how the landscape has changed over the years. Through personal anecdotes and experiences, Brian reveals the crucial role of club leadership in fostering a positive soccer culture. Join us as we celebrate Bryan's remarkable contributions and the vibrant soccer community he has helped build in Georgia.
Before we get into today's show, we have a word from one of our sponsors that I'm really excited about. I love the saying necessity is the mother of invention and let me tell you, most assigning platforms out there for officials are brutal. Well, two young men recently out of college decided there had to be a better way to manage officials and get assigned, and they founded a company called Refersports. It simply makes referee management and assigning easy. It's native on a mobile app so you can manage your games whether you're in the office, on a desktop or on the go. It is now the world's fastest growing assigning solution and it's 100% free for assigners. It's a no-brainer to make the switch. It makes assigners easier to work with. I've got a few assigners in my world that are brutal just because their systems are so bad and antiquated. It provides a dedicated integration specialist, so when you make a switch over to refer, it ensures a seamless transition for you and the organization and the officials that you work with, and they support over 25 sports. So if you're assigning for soccer, you're assigning for softball, you're signing for lacrosse, you can use one platform for everything. Simply put, man, if you want to level up your assigning game and be an easier assigner to work with for the referees and officials that are in your universe. Use a tool that makes everyone's life better Refersports. It's spelled R-E-F-R sports. Check it out online or in the app store.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the refs. Need love to podcast a show that gives you a real, raw and behind the scenes view of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch the referee. I'm your host, david Gerson, a grassroots referee and certified mentor with over 10 years of experience and over 1200 matches under my belt. You can find me at refseedlovetocom, on Instagram, tiktok and now on YouTube. Today we're going to be interviewing Brian McDermott, a gentleman who is part of the foundation of Georgia soccer. He's been volunteering, working and actively participating in our local soccer community for over 40 years 40 years as a coach, a referee, a mentor and a signer, and on our state board of directors. He's been a ref again. I'm going to say that for over 40 years.
Speaker 1:He did his first referee class in Jamaica in 1982. I was seven at the time. He's a solid ref as he was selected to regionals twice and even as recent last year, we did an MLS next game together. He's coached or assisted at all national level. His current team is a U16 local team here called Cool Runnings. He's been president of one of our locals, a recreational club, soccer, for numerous years. He was vice president 10 years before he was president. He's been chairman of the Georgia Youth Ethics and Grievance Committee, spent five years as a youth discipline chairman and is currently our state director of assignment. In 2019, he was recognized as US Soccer South Regional Volunteer of the Year. He's a phenomenal sports photographer too, covering many of our local high-profile matches, and that wasn't even his full-time job. He had another job on top of that.
Speaker 1:So I want to give a hearty welcome, warm welcome, to the man to miss, the legend, mr brian mcdermott. Welcome to the show. Quite an introduction. You've done it. It's not like I'm making it up, those are actually push bits. I it's funny. You're not a boastful person. You're not someone who walked around talking about all of these things that you've done for us in Georgia, stocker, all the roles that you have, but my gosh, you have done quite a lot.
Speaker 2:Some of it is. I think I have a problem with certain people telling them.
Speaker 1:No, you're very generous of your time, that is for sure. The first thing that I'd love to ask you is again you were a referee for over 40 years. You've been in it much longer than most people do. The average tenure for a referee in the United States is less than four years. 80% dropout in four years or less. You've been doing it for 40 years. What has kept you in the game as a referee?
Speaker 2:For the most part I have fun. Yes, you get crazy people. Yes, they can be annoying sometimes, but overall I had fun. Meet a lot of people. I actually get paid for it too. I'll tell you a little secret, that's when you see me out there doing a club game, it's to help out, it's to have fun, it's. Whatever you see me doing a high school game, it's for the money. That's straight up. So funny.
Speaker 1:I actually. That really does make me chugger, because I actually why. I find I have a lot of fun at high school games, but it's I just the age group in particular. Let's talk assigning. This is definitely. I think this is like the dark arts of soccer people. Again, I'm a referee, brian, for 10 years. I have no idea how someone becomes an assigner. I have really very little understanding of the relationship between assigner and club. First off, let's start at the state level. You are the Georgia state assigning coordinator. What in the world does that entail? What is that.
Speaker 2:It means I get a vote on the state referee committee. It means I have to coordinate the assigner classes. First of all, the courses are not open. To be an assigner, you first have to have a club sponsor. You we want to hear from the club that, yes, this person is going to be our next assigner. Once we hear that, then we let you into the class. You do the class, you do all the online stuff and then you have I don't know what exactly it says the Zoom is supposed to be, but we do a Zoom that lasts for about an hour.
Speaker 1:And then. So what exactly is in the class? What do you need to know?
Speaker 2:The class, how to rank your referees and all that stuff, knowing the rules, because in the referee class, what they always tell you ask your assigner, so your assigner is supposed to know these things, which is annoying sometimes, just like when you have five different levels of competition. You're assigning and each one has different rules. So that's the start. Oh, yes, it's annoying for the referees as well.
Speaker 1:Brian, let's just remember that. It's annoying for you. Oh yes, it's annoying for the referees as well. Brian, let's, let's just remember that. It's annoying for you, but it's annoying for me, okay, so let's. So now you take a class, you get sponsored by a club. You take a class, you're now a certified assigner through us soccer. And then what? And so does the a club start saying, okay, this is our assigner. Now everyone's going to work through brian to be assigned for our games. How is our assigner? Now, everyone's going to work through Brian to be assigned for our games. How does an assigner get started? How do you develop your network of referees that you're assigning? What does it look like on a daily, weekly, monthly basis for you?
Speaker 2:The thing is most clubs like okay, let's take a fictitious club that's just starting, so we're going to have a club. We need to have an assigner. So we tell Georgia Soccer we have this numbskull who thinks he wants to assign for us, so we're going to sponsor him. He gets a job, okay, so he's going to start assigning. Well, who are our referees? And so either, if you're starting out from scratch, you've got to set up a referee class and now bring referees in. If you're taking over from somebody, then you probably inherit their database, inherit the referees they've been working with and start reaching out to whoever you can. That's kind of the thing I have a database of. When I send out my referee emails.
Speaker 1:It goes out to about 150, 170 maybe referees, and how many games are you assigning for on a weekly basis for?
Speaker 2:that 170 refs Like in the spring we're doing 30 to 40 games a week. In the fall I'm doing 50 to 60 because you get all the teams that are playing in the fall.
Speaker 1:Club Fayette County is not a massive club compared to the Southern Soccer Academies, the GSAs, so you're not talking about a massive one, but it could be 30, 40 games a week and some of these larger clubs, I'm assuming they're assigning 100, 300 games every single week. Yeah, it's wild, it's okay. So let's talk about and this is a is a real point of pain of mine, brian and and I'm. I I want to know okay, can you tell everyone what referee system do you use for assigning? And then I I want to also understand why is it such the wild west out there with assigning systems? Why do I work for five different wild west out there with assigning systems? Why do I work for five different assigners with five different assigning systems, brian?
Speaker 1:So it's a two-part question First off what system?
Speaker 2:do you use. Long before there was ever an assigning system, a friend of mine, steve Wayman, introduced me to a piece of software called FileMaker Pro, which started off as a FileMaker, which started off as a flat file database management system. I have my own system that I have developed over the years. It sends out emails for me. Yeah, it's a little bit of a bother that I have to look at the name and then stick them here. At one time every referee had a number and I had to put the referee's number in a certain slot to assign them. Now I just do it by name.
Speaker 2:There have been times it's like I get up one morning and look at this thing and just before the season's ready to start and I go you know I'm tired of looking at this and I wipe the whole thing, or I push the whole thing aside, start fresh and totally redesign my system, because there are features which I had which I no longer use. So I just get rid of all of that. So, yeah, I have my own thing. So I started that before I started doing my own thing before game officials.
Speaker 1:We're talking 20 years. Yes, you've been doing your own system, game officials, which was actually started here in Georgia.
Speaker 2:The referee who started it you slid in Griffin, he started it and I think Mike Wright helped with it and became the thing, and then the guy who started it sold it to a company and then it got sold to another company and then this other company decided to go in a different direction and so last year, I think, or a year before, they shut it down at this point I would say, in georgia 90, for the referees were using game officials. Now, all of a sudden, it went away and yes, there was never a. Yeah, it was last year, there was never a. This is what we all need to go to, because some people like features on this one, some people, oh, this one's good, but I don't like the price point, and so everybody started doing their own thing, and so now it's a wild west.
Speaker 1:So is this? I I'm really, I'm genuinely curious. I'm assuming there's a us soccer director of assigning. Obviously you're part of the signing part of the state referee committee on assigning. I can tell you as a referee, it's brutal. It's really frustrating to have to work in five different systems that some are web-based, some are app-based, some and Brian I'm not drawing any shade some.
Speaker 1:there is no web or app, it's just an email. Sometimes there's and you and I both know there are a couple of signers here in Georgia where it's literally just a phone call hey, can you do this? And so it's hard to figure out. Where am I supposed to be? When am I supposed to be there? What are the rules of competition? What are the sub rules? What's the documentation procedure? Do I have a cards? Do I not have cards? What's the just? All of those things have gotten so complex. Is there any effort afoot, either on a state level or national basis, to try and bring us back to some level of standardization?
Speaker 2:I don't think that's what you wanted to hear, but not that I know of.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the reality. It is what it is. Okay, so let's talk, let's move forward on this a little bit. It's annoying.
Speaker 2:I don't want to belabor the point.
Speaker 1:I will just tell you, brian, it brings me a lot of pain and I bet a lot of six months, from August through December. I think there are potentially nine or 10 different referee assigning systems that I will potentially be assigned through and it's just, it's out of control. It really has got to. There's got to be a better way, all right. So I want to talk about a couple of things real quick, just about assigning and we're going to bring this to a close soon. Okay, assigners, how do you guys get paid, and is there a standard fee that assigners get paid across the state, or is every club different is.
Speaker 2:You go in there and you negotiate what they'll pay. And I remember when I get paid with Fayette County Youth Soccer and somebody else at that point was like are you kidding me? No way, man. So they're like no, when I first started you were paid X amount of money per game and I'm like that's too hard to keep track of. It's much easier for me to say this is how much we've paid. Referees pay me a percentage and most clubs do that. They pay a percentage and it's usually 20 to 25% of what the referees make.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So this is I got to tell you. This is news to me, and I'm not saying news like today, but news in the past two months. I always thought that assigners got paid a fee. So if it's a game, you get paid 10 bucks or 20 bucks. But, just like you said, my world was like what that assigners can get paid, depending on the club or tournament 20, even 25 of the total game fees for a match. So if there's a game where, say, the center is getting 75 and the ars are getting 50, 50, we're talking 175 and so the game fee. If we're talking 20 of that, if that's 175 total, we're talking 20% of that. If that's $175 total, we're talking $35, you know, for that one game I did my math, I believe I did it's $35 for that one game. So again, when you have these clubs that have hundreds of games going a weekend and you may have maybe there's one assigner for academy and one for recreation, but if they're doing doing 100 games, we're talking about a lot of money.
Speaker 2:And I had no idea, I didn't know it was a bit. There was an assigner he still assigns, but who I would refer to as assigner for hire and he assigned for six, seven, eight different leagues or clubs. And let's just say what he was pulling in a year from assigning alone was a nice sum, but yet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I tell you, this whole world of assigning I really did not know existed. I had no idea it was like that. And I have to tell you I don't want to be an assigner. I swear, especially around these tournaments, like when you see these emails coming from assigners at 2am, 3am, 4am, the schedule's changed. I've got to tell you. I mean, I know you only got 30, 40 days, but I swear, every single week I need to start saving these emails and I'm sure every ref gets this too. It's like. It's like nonstop every single week, people looking for referees to cover matches.
Speaker 2:I do want to say this Go ahead, please, on four or five different assigners lists and there are a couple of signers on my list, so we know when we're begging for games and we just I'll see it as oops, he's having trouble this week. On the other hand, there are times like especially preseason. I have a preseason tournament and I've gone to other assigners and says, hey, could you send us out to your guys? And they'll send it out and we'll get a few people in. So yeah, there is some competition, but I think there's more working together than there is at loggerheads with each other working together than there is at loggerheads with each other.
Speaker 1:I do. I do have one question. I assume I know the answer. That's why I'm going to ask. I want to check myself on this.
Speaker 1:Okay, it seems this is my own personal opinion, but it seems like these tournaments that pop up, these preseason tournaments, these end of season tournaments, whatnot it seems like they schedule games without any any. Let me restate this more time it seems like that these tournaments that are at the beginning of the season and the end of the season are scheduled without any idea how in the world they're going to get referees to cover all of the games they bring in. It seems like they're just trying to bring in as many clubs as possible to generate as much revenue as possible, without any thought of what other tournaments are going on at the same time. How big of a pool of referees do you have and how the hell are you going to cover those games? Because you see it every time in these tournaments you got like numerous games that are happening with one ref, but a U17 match on a full field. Dude, you don't have enough refs to schedule that many games.
Speaker 2:Man, you hit the nail right on the head. Who does the tournaments? The club, the coaching staff, the administrators who want money? Don't fool yourself, tournaments are fundraisers. So, yes, they're getting as many teams in as they can, and referees to cover it all. That's the referee of Sanders problem. That's not my problem.
Speaker 1:And then I really, I honestly, it's so out of whack, so out of whack with the available referees.
Speaker 2:It just does not seem reasonable at all, crazy. So I've been lining up these referees. They give me the schedule, bum bum, okay, I'm pretty much there. And then three days before the tournament they turn around and say, oh, we have changes. And now you have. I have a time slot where I have six referees. Their games just went away, their games moved to another time slot, but they're already busy doing something else at that time. I will say it's interesting, the tournaments I deal with. They have actually started looking not just at the teams and game situation, but they're looking at the referee situation. They're looking at how much has it cost us to bring in 30 more teams as opposed to now? We have to find another complex with X number of more fields which we're renting. So we got to pay that and now we got to have to pay more in travel fees for referees to go to that place because it's out of the way and they're starting to say we might make more money by scaling things back a little bit.
Speaker 1:I got to tell you you want to see angry parents and frustrated parents come to these tournaments, come to these showcases, because I tell you that's where all the frustration is, these people who are. They're tired, they're frustrated. They drove 10 hours to get here and then they've got what they think is a competitive team playing on a pitch with a referee who's done five games already that day is completely not prepared to do that level of competition. They're missing an AR, so they're not getting the offside calls and everyone is angry and it is a fundamental again result of overscheduling matches.
Speaker 2:You don't have the referees.
Speaker 1:When you don't have enough officials to be able to cover that many.
Speaker 2:The other thing that drives me crazy with tournaments is I've got to use people other than my own, and sometimes you don't know this person, and so he says, oh, I could have it, it's a long time ago. Oh, I could handle an under-19, no problem. He gets in there the first game and he is like, oh my God, he's accustomed to under-19 rec level where he's from, and now here we have ECNL level teams and he just was not prepared for that. It's a different world.
Speaker 1:It's a different world. Yeah, it's I honestly again, I'm just stating for the record you people do not want to be an assigner. I'm looking forward to this point in my life. Seriously. I have no desire because I would feel personally responsible. That's the problem, like I would feel personally responsible. That's the problem, like I would feel so responsible for what's happening on those fields If I said, yeah, I've got this covered, we've got people there and then either they don't show where they're not professional that's actually okay, let's jump into that. So you're an assigner. What are your referee pet peeves? When you show up to the field and you see someone out there working for you or Brian, I know you're a coach, you go to fields all the time and referees. Maybe you haven't assigned. Or you're a referee and you show up when the other referees that they're not properly dressed and equipped, because that tells me you don't care.
Speaker 2:And number two, not showing up on time. Most anything else I can handle, but those two things. I had a kid do a game in Crocs and I show up after the game and he's wearing the Crocs. He didn't have his badge on. I said where's your badge? He said game's over. I took my badge off. I have it. It's here. Oh, okay. And I look down and I go don't tell me, you refereed in those. And he just gets this sheepish look and there are a couple other refs there and I was like they took a vote and let's say the vote was tied because I was like we're gonna vote to see whether or not to find him ten10 for a game that pays. And then that night I get an email from another ref who was watching games, saw him, took a picture and circled his Crocs. I said yeah, I know, I told him.
Speaker 1:if it ever happens again, I'm going to find him for every game. Yeah, I tell you, I've done some videos, brian, where I really talk about uniform and how critical it is to look right, and people are like, oh, you're being overcritical. At least they show up. I'm like, okay, like showing up. Okay, maybe that's like the basic level of expectation. They show up. You get fired if you don't show up. But you have to show up looking like you're ready to do the job and in the uniform that's been assigned to you as well.
Speaker 2:They didn't have a full crew and the rules stated this is Georgia soccer game. The rules stated if we didn't have a full crew, we didn't have to play the game. And the first guy I saw was ar and I know him and don't have didn't hold him in a high opinion. The guy who was doing the middle shows up, socks down, shirt out of his shorts and walks over to check the players in. And I turned to my assistant of course we're not playing this game. I was like we are not playing this game because because you know how it's going to go.
Speaker 1:If you see that, you know immediately how it's going to go. I have to tell you. So, brian, I get sent videos like all the time. I get 10 videos a day from parents asking me to make a call on a play and there was one where it was going to be. They said, oh, can you believe? This person called them.
Speaker 1:And I opened the video and immediately I saw someone wearing perfect uniform like official sports logo on the side, official sports shorts, official sports socks, had both watches on, had wristband on. I could tell they were fit. I was like oh, I guarantee this call is going to be right. So what do you know? It was close, but you could tell this girl was like, like it's just, I know and that if you see someone in the proper uniform that there's a really good chance that they're gonna call a good game. But I think even for a parent or coach or player on the sideline, maybe they don't know to look for what you and I know to look for, but subconsciously they know and they and it goes to credibility and match control it's a big deal.
Speaker 2:You go out there looking like you know what you're doing, and even if you don't know what you're doing, you'll get the benefit of the doubt for your first mistake and go downhill after that. But at least it's, we have a little time.
Speaker 1:I get it Cool. All right, I got one more question for you. How do referees move up and get better, paying higher quality games from an assigner They've got to see you or get recommendations from people they trust.
Speaker 2:That's the basic thing and I will admit that sometimes if early in your career you're doing dumb stuff, that assigner will oh he does dumb stuff, I'm not going to give him anything better and you might need to move to another assigner who gives them a break. And then you get over that and maybe you'll come back and say hey, look at, would you come look? Would you come look at me? And of course it's hard for me sometimes if someone says will you come look at me? Because I'm course it's hard for me sometimes if someone says will you come look at me Because I'm coaching and doing this, that and the next thing. But if I can I'll go look at them and actually I like mentoring.
Speaker 1:I got to tell you so as a mentor and, just now, a referee with gray hair, because we've been doing it for a long time I have a number of assigners who will assign me a game. They'll give me an AR and they'll give me a center. But on the AR they'll say, hey, I'm pairing you up with this guy in the center or girl, can you give me your feedback? Let me know what? Because they've asked to move up and so they'll sometimes. I think it's something where you can get paired up with a senior ref or someone who can be your eyes and ears as the assigner to be able to give you some feedback If you, as the assigner, can't be there and I think that's just a good advice in general is sometimes getting assigned with a more senior or someone who could be a mentor for you to give you pointers but also could make recommendations on your behalf.
Speaker 2:I'll do that too, and I've had. Hey, this guy did a great job. I get it from coaches Sometimes this guy was great. Most of the times, I will say that this guy was terrible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2:What if they expected?
Speaker 1:what? Yeah, I will never outright dog someone unless it's like awful. I think there's literally maybe two referees in 10 years where I actually sent a note to the assigner after the match. I was like like yo, this one I.
Speaker 1:I don't know if this is true, but the rumor is that a former high school assigner was once quoted as having said you just have to hold your nose and assign them anyway we will not attribute that to any one person, but in high school and like those jv games and stuff, again again, there again, we talk about an outsized number of games for the amount of referees in high school and I, brian, I know you, know this we have 6,800 games in a like eight week season with only 330 certified refs, whereas only 275 of them are fit at any given period of time. And they all have like full-time jobs or many do and can't work more than one or two games a week or one or two nights a week.
Speaker 1:Yes, you're getting whoever is available on that day, and that is just a fact of the matter. If we're going to play. If we're going to play, you may just be getting whoever literally has a pulse, and has a game, you'll get the best refs, and after that it's cool. Yes, yes, man, I know that it is. It's a comeback that I've used jokingly sometimes when something that was not a great game.
Speaker 1:It was like good games get good refs, it's all right. It's all right. That's really fun. You've also been on the club side, so you've been a club president. You were a club vice president for a decade before that, and he tells us a little bit about the club. And then also, how do you try and set the culture for the club so that it's fun for everyone out there, as you say?
Speaker 2:I don't know. I'm president of a rec league and it's more of the coordinating stuff. We have a recreation coordinator who does most of the dirty work. I'm more setting the policy, where she'll say do you think we should do this, or we need to do this, or whatever. I wouldn't say I set the culture at all. The culture is more set by the coaches, the players, the parents and do you have to specifically so with the coaches?
Speaker 1:are you driving certain behaviors or are you trying to, in the hiring of your coaches, specifically looking for certain qualities that are going to create the club that you guys want to see?
Speaker 2:I'm also on the blow of AFC Lightning. There we're looking for something particular in coaches. If you don't find it, no, we don't want to hire you On a recreation level. We're begging people to coach. We'll train you, we'll do whatever you need. We've had a couple of occasions where we've had high school kids who will come and help the coach. They'll basically run the sessions and do stuff for them because they're the adults. They know how to organize, but they don't know soccer. So basically, the qualities we're looking for is somebody who wants to be there number one, somebody who's not going to be crazy. You know we've had some coaches who are successful, but their methods to be successful doesn't make it fun and you start, ooh, we need them out of here.
Speaker 1:Yes, I mean you're bringing up a really interesting point when you're, as you're mentioning, so like on the recreational side. For those who don't know, afc lightning is a local, a very competitive club here in the South side of Atlanta. They have teams from all levels, from recreational youth all the way up to MLS next and girls Academy on the girl' side, so very competitive club. But you talk about again, like Fayette County Youth Association, this recreational club that you're on the board of and have led for a long time. The challenge of, you know, beggars can't be choosers. When you're finding coaches for that, you're looking just for someone who wants to be there and wants to participate as a coach. You're not going to necessarily have someone who's had significant training, who's gotten licenses, who really understands how to deal with referees or other coaches or the parents. It's hard to have high aspirations of, hey, we're looking for this kind of person and get a recruit, the best person for the job, when it records, really.
Speaker 2:Hey, we'll just take you if you're willing to be here.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about this from a referee perspective. Okay, so recreational soccer, whether it's U8, u10, u12, u14, believe it or not, and I know you're going to believe this, obviously you've been on the discipline but they can sometimes be really intense. Or you can have parents and coaches who get really loud and really intense, even at recreational soccer, who may not have a lot of knowledge of the game or the laws of the game. What advice would you have for referees trying to manage the coaches and players and parents in those recreational settings where you may not have people who have a lot of training or a lot of experience in the game?
Speaker 2:I'll tell you, the biggest problem starts at the younger ages, and some of that is the smaller field. Every parent, grandparents, siblings, everybody's there and it's really tight and they start to go crazy and it's try and tune out as much as you can, but deal with the coaches. Coach, this can't happen. Coach, that can't happen. Personally, I ended up having to do an under eight girls game on Sunday, I think it was, or Saturday, and at one point in the game I was like man, I've been to professional games that aren't this loud, but again, they were being loud, but they weren't being abusive, because I'm listening for that. And that's one of the problems. When you have the younger kids doing those games, they'll start jumping on this young kid and it's like that. Just, we don't take that lightly. We have not had any problem. We haven't had any problems. Yes, this season yeah, but in the past we've had where we've had to have people just sitting on the sidelines with the parents.
Speaker 1:Just stop yeah, like a referee whisperer who can help them. I think it's so important. It's interesting. You described and I call this atmosphere okay that there is going to be atmosphere at matches and, as you said, smaller fields, smaller kids. It could actually be even louder and even crazier than what you would find at a U18 MLS, next, girls Academy, ecnl match. That there could be so much atmosphere on every single kick, every single bump, every single goal, every single trip that might happen out there that it really can be loud and overwhelming and very intimidating to young referees who are starting out.
Speaker 1:Brian, I know you develop, you bring in young referees. You have recreational clubs, you're assigning young referees. How do you help them get through those first couple years of working those u8, u10 matches where there's all of this atmosphere on these small fields? How do you get them over the hump and get them through those games so they can stick with it long enough to develop into those refs that we want to see at president's cup and regionals and really first continue for four or five years or more?
Speaker 2:we started a junior referee program and, much the annoyance of some of these refs, I'm not going to put you in that under eight middle until you're showing me you have your act together. You're showing up, you're looking neat, your signaling is sharp, you look like you know what you're doing. And then I'm going to ask you do you want to try an under eight? And that first under eight, you're going to have an adult there with you and if there are any problems there'll be someone there immediately to step in and help if necessary. And you're doing a good job with the under eight. Do you want to try an under 12?
Speaker 2:The thing is not, I could tell you. I had one kid who was I want to do an under 8. Now, the week before I had a report from a 14-year-old referee in the middle who said at halftime I had to tell I had to teach my AR what offside is, because she wasn't calling it. And this is a girl who wants to do under eights. And I'm like, and he said her who it was and I said ah yeah, she's a really nice kid but not much of a referee it's not for everyone.
Speaker 1:It's not for everyone. It's not for everyone, that's for sure. So what is your path? Look like it's very interesting because, again, I've not run a junior's program, obviously, but you have, and I so. Is your path for junior referees?
Speaker 2:you have them act as assistant referees on U12 or U10 matches Offside at U10 matches we made a conscious decision some time ago that we're not using ARs on, we're using the build-out line.
Speaker 1:Okay, and I don't. I personally I don't think you need it. Yeah, yeah, there's such a limited area for offside anyway. Yeah, okay, so you're not. So on your league, your recreational league, you're not doing ARs on U10.
Speaker 1:So you start your junior referees at u12 ar positions for a while and you see that they're getting good there and then you wish, I wish there were more junior programs. That I honestly do. It's interesting. There are a few clubs in atlanta who do develop referees and have made that conscious decision. I know inner atlanta in particular has been very deliberate in their development of referees, but there are. I wish more clubs would take it seriously and understand that the value of doing that.
Speaker 1:Not everyone does so. You've been in the game for over 40 years, brian. Have you seen any changes in either coach and parent behavior over that time or referee behavior in that time, or is it just it's a constant that's always been going on out there?
Speaker 2:Coach and parents as and let's start with the select teams and paid coaches. As the coaches are getting paid more, the expectations are greater. They push the kids more, so a lot of them get a little crazy Recreation. We've been finding that the laid-back parents we don't have as many of them as we used to. I don't know why, but they're just going crazy too. And it's interesting.
Speaker 2:We'll get parents who have been with the recreation teams at, say, u8, maybe U10. And now their kid's been kicking butt here. So they go and join a lightning team and the first thing the lightning coach says is we don't want to hear you over there. And they're like what do you mean? I've got a chair. No, you don't. And those programs where the coaches and the club keeps a tamper on them makes referees' lives a lot easier. Referees, I find I remember way, way back kids who are now in their 40s and when they were a referee 14 years old, I could put them on a 13 year old 11 v 11 game and not worry. You just don't see that many of those kids anymore. What?
Speaker 1:are the characteristics that are you think are missing in those 14, 15 year old kids now that maybe we had instilled in them 20 years ago what's missing, that doesn't enable them to be able to do a center?
Speaker 2:on like a U12 or U13 game these days. I just think kids take a little longer to mature now Because, you know, those kids had maturity concentration. I have. I've seen one kid who is he's 13, so he's on a 2011 MLS Next team and I've watched him on do under 12 middles and stuff like that to this. He's good, he gets it. You do have a few who get, but I just feel that we used to have a lot more that died.
Speaker 1:I think I and my own personal theory on it is and again, I don't want people to struggle. If they people going through struggle and adversity as a youth can, one or two things can happen. Either it can really affect them negatively in life or it can make them more resilient and independent and have that inner strength that you need because they've been tested. And I think there is a little bit these days where parents may be so protective of their child's emotional state at all time and don't want them to be in situations where they struggle, where it's really hard to be in those intense environments on a soccer pitch. If you've not had any struggle thus far in your life, it really is a challenge. So it's, I don't know.
Speaker 1:That's my own personal feelings on that, all right. So I want to ask you some questions about your role on the disciplinary committee, ethics committee for the state of Georgia. All right, just an open question. At this time let's withhold all names, club affiliations, everything. Let's protect the innocent and guilty. But what are some of the craziest things that you've seen done by parents or coaches or players in your years on these committees?
Speaker 2:I can't even think of craziest. I think one of my most memorable hearings was kid comes in. A 12 year old kid comes in with his mother. We're sitting at this long table, I'm at one end, he's at the other end, his mother's beside him, and then you have all these adults down the side. Referees are over here and we start off. The referee says this is what the kid did, and so I said okay, we've heard from the referee. Now what do you have to say? And he said something and I couldn't hear it. I said what's that? And he goes it's true, everything the referee said is true. And there's just this dead silence in the room. Wow. And his mother turns to him and says and I apologize for my behavior.
Speaker 1:That was one of the great. I have another question for you about discipline. So in all of my years I've probably maybe given out 20 or 30 red cards. In 10 years it's not that many. I've had a few times where I've dismissed a parent and I've written a report about it, or I've had to dismiss a coach thankfully only a few times in my entire career but after I submitted that report to my assigner whether it was you or it was Matt or someone else I've never heard anything after that, and so I'm just curious, like what is supposed to happen, or what does happen when I dismiss, or a referee dismisses, a coach or a parent and they write a report?
Speaker 2:I can only speak to what takes place after that basically referee abuse which is there, has for it to be referee abuse, there has to be an implication of a threat or something like that. It's not ref you're ugly, ref you're ugly, you don't know what you're doing. That's basically a one game suspension. Refs, I will meet you in the parking lot. That's a threat and US soccer is. If that's what he said, we have to have a hearing on that and once we establish yes, that's what he said the minimum is a three-game suspension. Referee assault, where you actually make physical contact in a manner kind of thing Not a good job ref. If you push the ref or something like that referee assault, they have a thing which is minor touching, which is a six-month suspension, or basically full referee assault is a one-year suspension and referee assault done by an adult towards a minor is a minimum three-year suspension. Yeah, as it should be.
Speaker 1:I would also. I don't mean to laugh, but just to me that's the most outrageous possible thing I could imagine. It's so beyond my imagination that someone could be so angry at a match to assault a minor. I have a hard time even wrapping my head around that. Brian, thank you so much, man. I really do appreciate your time. It's been a wonderful conversation and let me just also again say thank you for all that you've done for Georgia soccer and our community. For those who don't know, our community is now going to be the home Fayette County of US soccer, and Brian and I were talking before the podcast that actually the U-17 girls national team was here tonight in town playing at our local fields and we'll be investing our community and Brian has been a member of our community, supporting our community, developing our soccer community, for over 40 years, so he's he's part of that reason that we've been able to attract us soccer here so.
Speaker 1:Brian, thank you so much for your time. Sir. I hope you enjoyed today's pod. Brian is so much more than a coach, a referee, mentor, a signer. He's the foundation of a vibrant soccer community. We are so thankful to have him. It's because of great people like him that we've been able to bring US soccer here and we continue to have a really vibrant soccer culture in our town and our state and our country. So please, thank you so much to Brian and again, if you don't mind, please support the Ref's Need Love 2 store online.
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