REFS NEED LOVE TOO
An honest perspective from the 3rd team on the pitch... the referees. Through humor, analysis and education, we are slowly changing how people view referees and officials in all sports. We care and have a love for the game as much as any player or coach. Sometimes even more. Youth soccer (proper football) is a multi-billion $ industry in the US. Tremendous money is spent on players, competitions, travel etc., but almost nothing spent on developing the next generation of referees. I hope that this Podcast inspires, educates and humanizes the next generation of referees for their own development and appreciation from the players, coaches and spectators they need to work alongside.
REFS NEED LOVE TOO
Dutch Referee Development Unveiled: Jan Ter Hamsel on Referee Growth, Development, and Innovation Approaches to Mentorship
Jan Ter Hamsel, the creator behind the influential Dutch Referee Blog (dutchreferee.com & @dutchreferee on Instagram), offers a unique look into the life and development of soccer referees around the globe. Join us as Jan shares the inspiration behind his blog, which has grown into an educational hub for referees seeking both personal and professional growth. He contrasts the robust training and development pathways available in the Netherlands with the limited opportunities faced by grassroots referees in the United States, emphasizing the role of continuous education and dedication in improving officiating skills.
Discover the intricacies of the KNVB's comprehensive referee training and mentorship programs that highlight foundational skills and real-world experiences. Jan explains how these programs support new referees with guidance from seasoned mentors and reflective practices. Our discussion sheds light on the challenges of referee retention and the cultural dynamics influencing interactions between referees, players, and spectators. New initiatives aimed at fostering respect and reducing referee abuse are explored, aiming to enhance the atmosphere on the field.
In a candid discussion about personal growth, Jan unveils the self-scan technique as a tool for referees to identify strengths and areas for improvement. We dive into the importance of physical fitness and a growth mindset, vital for maintaining credibility and ensuring continuous development. Jan shares insights into the structured referee progression in the Netherlands, highlighting the value of consistent learning and maintaining a positive outlook despite age-related challenges. Join us for an inspiring conversation that celebrates the dedication and resilience of referees worldwide.
Hello and welcome to the Refs Need Love 2 podcast, a show that gives you a real, raw and behind the scenes view of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch the referee. I'm your host, david Gerson, a grassroots referee with over 1200 matches under my belt. You can find me at refsneedlove2.com, on Insta, tiktok and now YouTube. Today we have a very special guest from my family's second homeland. No, we're not ethnically Dutch, but we lived there for two years and we love that country. Today we are going to be interviewing the person who is behind the Dutch referee blog, who's been doing Refs Need Love 2 before Refs Need Love 2 was even a thing.
Speaker 1:Jan Terhamsel is a national amateur referee in the Netherlands. He's officiating academy teams of pro teams like Ajax, psv, feyenoord there's a picture of him and Robin Van Persie on his homepage. It's amazing. He's also the KNVB, which is the Dutch Soccer Association, like US Soccer. Here in the US he's a referee, instructor and coach for professional football talent group referees and for his association in the Hague. He's a physical trainer and gives monthly laws of the game sessions for referees. But again, most of you guys probably know him as at Dutch referee on Instagram and other social media, which is how you'd find him online with his blog as well. All right, so welcome, or I should say welcome, and goedendag Jan, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Goedendag, hello, glad to be on the show.
Speaker 1:Yes, my Dutch is not good guys, so that is about the extent of the Dutch that I can do. I can greet people, I can say goodnight, I can order a sandwich in a store, but that's about it. So we're going to do this interview in English, if that's okay with you.
Speaker 2:That's good for me. My English is probably good enough for this.
Speaker 1:Yes, as it is for most people in the Netherlands. It's amazing that most of my Dutch friends can speak about five languages, and they're actually funny in five languages. Me, I struggle in just the one that I have here in English. All right, so let's go ahead and dive on in. Can you talk to us a little bit about the Dutch referee blog? Where did this come from and what has it become?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I started the blog like ages ago. The initial idea was if there was a story in the media and it was about referees, it was always because they made a wrong decision. Media trying to complain, clubs trying to complain, and I thought there's a whole of a lot of more things to tell about referees. I started and I thought let's talk with the referee about do you have a family, do you have have game preparation? How is your personal life, how do you combine work with refereeing and so on. That's how it started and over the years it has grown more like an education platform.
Speaker 2:So initially I want to give some insights into the life of referees, but now it's more education, sharing clips, clips doing laws of the game, quizzes and in the end, I want to help referees be like becoming better at the job, like improving, and I think every referee has a chance to come become a better referee. It's not just the top level of referees or talent. Everyone can become better, especially when you focus on. So you need to be aware of it. You need to be willing to improve and learn and stay open for new things. But everyone can learn something and become better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that and we struggle with the same things here in the United States. There's a massive gap between the first-time referee course, which is some online you can do it while watching premier league games on a Saturday and then you have a very short, four hour in-person session which they teach you how to hold the flag, they tell you how to show up to the field, they tell you about how to find, maybe, an assigner, and that's it and they throw you to the wolves. And between that and the high level referee coaching for the best referees out there, those national or regional level referees that's how we call them in the US. In between that, for the 99% of refs there's very little. So I'm curious what is the development pathway like in the Netherlands? How old can you become certified as a ref? And then what type of training and development is there for those refs to learn and grow?
Speaker 2:I think the minimum age now is 16 to become a referee for 11 aside football. But if you want to do seven aside football or be a even a four aside and that would be more like no, it's not a game manager, but it's something like you go to the pitch. It's not much refereeing but it's like managing the players, the kids. That can be from much younger so you can gain experience for the courses. But in the netherlands there's a different system. In the netherlands you work with knvb referees. These referees are referees that officiate at different clubs and you got the official diploma. But you can also be a club referee and that's quite a big bunch of people who do that.
Speaker 2:And club referees officiate at the same club all the time. Or some people do that in the same region because they want to do or visit clubs in their own area. So they might do different clubs. But it's the club who organizes and appoints referees and ideally these referees also get their certification. They do the tests, they pass the things. Because even at that level you need to know the laws of the game, you need to know how to manage the game, you need to know how to deal with certain situations. So KVB always tries to find also those referees to do a course, because even then you need to know the basics. But if you referee at a club and you don't have a license yet because you're 13 or 14, but you can still gain experience that's totally fine, so you can start earlier on at your local club. You might be playing football in the afternoon, refereeing in the morning, and that's how I started as well, yeah.
Speaker 1:I think our overly litigious society here in the United States prevents just having anyone show up to be a referee if they're employed or paid by the club. I think they require at least many clubs require a certification or certified ref to be there and then like a certified assigner to assign them Jan, how long have you been a referee? And then the follow-up question is going to be what do you love about being a referee? Why do you keep doing it? So how long have you been a ref?
Speaker 2:I think it would be about I think maybe today we're talking this in November. Yeah, might be 22 years around this month, yeah.
Speaker 1:Congratulations, sir. Yeah, might be 22 years around this month, yeah congratulations, sir.
Speaker 2:22 and you said you're 39, so you started when you were a teenager. Yeah, I was 16, 17 when I started.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow oh, my gosh started when you were 16 or 17, and then what is it that keeps you coming back and we talk about the abuse. We talk about stress also, by the way, I think you told me when we were emailing or corresponding before this podcast. You told me that the referees only get paid around like 25 euro per match, even at the highest level.
Speaker 2:Competitive youth Is that right and travel money, so we also get some money to buy gas and stuff. But yeah, it's 25 euros now and because I'm refereeing nationally, so I get five euros, except for lunch.
Speaker 1:So you're getting about 40 euros to referee the highest level of competition for, again, these very high-level clubs. I guess it would be the equivalent here in the US to the MLS Next, if you will, which are and I've got some of those games tomorrow so the highest level clubs. But you're getting about maybe 40 euros total with your lunch stipend, which five euros doesn't buy you much these days. You get a little money for travel plus a game fee.
Speaker 2:I love to referee and I love to. When I started as a referee I was the person. I was not aggressive but I was having a lot of complaints because I thought I knew the rules better. And at one point I thought, okay, if I know the rules better, I better do a loss of the game, test and axiom and get my papers and become a referee. And I started seven aside games. I did two, sometimes two games in the morning, seven aside, and then I played myself. I still love to play. I'm not doing it anymore. Just sometimes a local referee association plays against rotterdam or whatever intense games because referees playing football better bring your shin guards brother.
Speaker 1:Literally today I was thinking about for my birthday, my 50th birthday I want to organize a referee football match. I'm so excited about that. I might even do one just over the holidays here. Just put it out like a bat call on my referee channel All right, I've got a field, come on down, let's play. But I'll tell you I'm like you have to have a referee badge to be able to play, but it's I'm also a little worried. It's like the refs know what they can get away with and I'm a little worried that might be a little rough.
Speaker 2:David Pérez yeah, people complain and then even in those games, like some refs are complaining come on, you don't want in your own games, oh my gosh, all right.
Speaker 1:Do you have a referee for that match? When you challenged the neighboring referee association, do you guys actually have a referee work that match?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, they usually have referees. Do the doing those games.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it, Excellent. So let's talk a little bit about referee development and the type of referee development that that you do and that you focus on. What are probably some of the main things that you focus on for newer, more junior referees, whether it's a they're 16 years old or they're 36 years old or 56 years old, but closer to my age, what do you focus on for those people? Is there a specific area that you lean into more than another to get them started and get them in the right direction?
Speaker 2:We always start with the basics, like when you are refereeing at your own club. Then you have to referee at different clubs, like I'm in the highest youth level group now and you have four national groups, one youth level group and three adult level groups and then as you go, different paths. You go the youth path or the adult path. It's not one or the other, it's not. You do both. And then you start, even with amateur clubs at U17, sometimes U13, depends on the level and then you can every season you can take a step on the ladder and and go up to to the highest groups. Everyone can get a promotion. But in the end you try to improve, especially for younger kids or younger referees. They don't know how to present themselves, maybe, and even when you're 56 or whatever, are new to going to different clubs. So that's just the basics, like what are the steps? You do, from taking the car or getting on a bike, go to the location and how do you present yourself? You go to the boardroom, you meet people, how are the procedures? That's just the basics, but also I like to address the laws of the game to them, because some people they know how to handle things, but you need to get more in detail because what is reckless or what is excessive force, and show them examples of how that works, because those are the basics. And then you go to try to keep control of the game. Some referees go onto a pitch and they let things happen, but you can take a lot of control as a referee. Like just with the pre-match talks, you can talk to the coaches. This is what I expect from you. This is what I want to see also during the game. Like some people might start off, give a warning and even tonight we had a webinar and explained something about approaching players and protests If you start giving a warning, you should take control and after the first final warning like final warning says it all. So don't give three or four final warnings. And that's some basics that also referees need to know and need to work on, need to discuss each other on those topics. And if I'm the referee instructor of the evening in the basics, I'll try to, of course, explain something, because the less experienced referees are, the more you need to explain sometimes. But I always try to give them smaller group sessions, sometimes give them a big sheet of paper like write down what do you know about this law or what do you know about the doxo situation, and they come up with lots of ideas and then you pair them up and that they got different points and they can learn from each other. And of course, as an instructor at that level, you have to add something as well, because you want them to get that. They get home and say, yeah, I learned something tonight.
Speaker 2:And the course in the netherlands for refereeing for kvb is four evenings. So you start for example, my course start now in september, october, november, december. Every month one course evening and in in between they officiate games and you get a mentor from kvb at least two, three times and the other games they do gain experience for themselves. So, but ideally the first game there will be a mentor. So they will be helped. They know how to deal with that. Uh, they get the basics an experienced referee as a mentor.
Speaker 2:They can help them around with some things like how does the match form work? This is different. So that's basically how it goes, and they do write a reflection on their performance. They with some things like how does the match form work? This is different. So that's basically how it goes, and they do write a reflection on their performance. They would try to get them into refereeing goals and that should not be.
Speaker 2:Don't think about the biggest things. But even if it's positioning and I want them to evaluate on it, not just okay, my goal is positioning, it goes well. No, that's not a good reflection. I want to stimulate them like okay, what did go well, what didn't go well? I also share some of my mistakes, so they feel free to share theirs as well, because I think you can learn a lot from your mistakes. And some people say, oh no, everything went well, but you can still pass the X for the referee course if you just make some mistakes. Because that's the learning process I want to make them aware of and that's when you really become a better referee If you reflect on your mistakes, also take the positives and keep them with them in your back to the next game.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's amazing. I just want to go back to something real quick. I think I heard you say okay and again, to be a KNVB, so a certified referee through the country's certification organization that when they turn 16, there are four different courses they're going to take over a four-month period, one night per month, september to December essentially essentially as the example you gave and then they will referee their first match and they'll have a mentor present, someone who's going to help them reflect upon the match, and then they'll they'll set goals, then they'll have more training, have another mentor session come out, get feedback and set goals and then get into more training. I have a mentor come out. I got to tell you, if that actually happened here in the US, for me that would have been more development and training than I would have gotten the first five years of me being a referee in the United States. That's fantastic.
Speaker 2:Now it works really well and we try to get four mentors. In that period you need to referee, I think, six to eight games, so sometimes you're out in the wild yourself and have to officiate a game, but at least the first game. That's most crucial because that's when people get their first experience, and some might have done youth games and then go to adult games and then it's a whole new world to them. That's what kv tries to do and, yeah, that works good for them.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic. I I do have a couple questions. Do you have any idea on data as to what type of turnover or the ability to attract and retain referees is in the Netherlands? Like, what percentage of referees do you lose after two or three years? How does this development and this mentoring work out for you guys?
Speaker 2:Yeah, kvb tries to. They set a bar, like one or two years ago, that they want to grow the number of referees. Since that time there was just a decrease of referees. Since that time there was just an inc a decrease. And, yes, you get new referees, but also maybe after covet, also because of people shouting at you and you think I got better things to do on a saturday or sunday morning or afternoon. So they also try to see who's in the referee list and who is still active and who is still good enough to referee the games. Since two years the number is lower than two years ago.
Speaker 2:So even if you get more and more referees and there are more and more courses, there's also quite a lot referees quitting and I think in every country that's a big problem they said in a recent meeting is that yeah, there was a decline but they tried to get up now. So this is like the momentum. They want to get up again. Yeah, I hope that works and people stay motivated, people will continue refereeing, but yeah, you never know, it's, I think, a problem for everyone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm really interested about the culture in the Netherlands towards referees. Obviously, I know referees are seen as villains the world over and I have to tell you, after living in the Netherlands for two years and doing business there, I'm used to Dutch people being very honest and direct and frank and say exactly what's on their mind. So what is it like working in the Netherlands as a referee? Is there a culture of respect between players and coaches and spectators of the referee? Are there certain problem areas? Are you guys going through the same type of referee abuse and dissent issues that we're experiencing here in the US and in other countries?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's also a lot of referee abuse and that's also why they came to be accepted, as in many other countries, the new approach with the captains, that only captains can speak to the referee, because what everyone noticed is that lots of players thought they could say whatever they want and there was, like the laws of the game were clear. Like you can still deal with dissent, you can. The game were clear. Like you can still deal with dissent, you can still deal with protests, you can still deal with players like gesturing to you, like whatever they want, like the cynical claps, the circus. There were things in the laws of the game that you could use to manage your game and deal with it.
Speaker 2:I think this new approach and and introducing as something new that works well, because every player on the pitch now knows no, there are new rules, although they are basically the same in a different red paper. Introducing it as something new gives it some more attention, also in the media, that players know oh, there are new rules, there are new things to think about. I can't say something like this. Or the captain is the person to speak to the referee. So if you show a yellow card now for dissent or protests or players running at you or coming way too close to you, then his teammates might now say come on, the new rule, but I hope this new approach helps a lot. I want to ask you about something that's on your the new rule, but I hope this new approach helps a lot.
Speaker 1:I want to ask you about something that's on your website right now. So again, I highly encourage people to go to dutchrefereecom. There's something I came across that I think is really helpful, and it's called the self-scan for referees, where it looks like you're trying to come up with a plan for your own growth. Can you talk us through these six things right here? The first one here is writing down your current situations and things you want to develop as a referee. What are you expecting people to do? What are the things they should be evaluating to develop as a referee?
Speaker 2:As a referee, I want people to look at match reports. They got from observers, things from friends they watched, and there can be referees that watch you, but also your partner or your father, your mother, whoever watches you. You hear something from them and how it comes across in the game. So there could be development reports and based on that, you know what your strengths are and what your weaknesses are, and even your own personal experience. You know what works for you in the game and what doesn't work for you in the game, and it should be all those things combined that give you, or sometimes, the feedback from coaches or players, and even though sometimes they might be complaining or in a certain mode, but at some point you might think, if I hear this two, three times, it might be a thing. So at least write it down, think about it and say okay, you see a pattern. After each game, I try to write down two strong points, two things that I think of could have been better, two strong points, two things that I think of could have been better.
Speaker 2:Jan, if you write it down your every game, then at least you see a pattern over a month or two months or whatever you like, and then you see, oh, game management, or I'm always in the way of the ball, or my positioning on the right side of the pitch where the assistant referee is. I take a lot of risk there, or whatever. I miss a lot of vowels or whatever comes up. You see a pattern and then you can say, okay, these are the important topics of my development. Then you score yourself and I don't mind if you do that one to 10 or one out of five If you. I don't mind how you score yourself, but at least you can see a different art. This is more crucial, or this is something I can develop faster or quicker. And you work on it and when you have clear in your mind what you should focus on in your development next game, you'll pick one or maybe two things and you start working on them every game and then in the end you can improve as a referee.
Speaker 1:Are there specific areas of emphasis within the KNVB right now where they want to see their referees develop the most or really start to make change?
Speaker 2:No, this season in the technical guidelines we got was, of course, the role of the captain and the way you deal with protests that you are clear to that don't accept too much. So that was always a main thing. But, yeah, it's always good to see challenges, like how you deal with certain challenges. That's also a good thing In terms of positioning, like what you of course have is the diagonal. Everyone knows the diagonal. Is it always the best position?
Speaker 2:Sometimes, when the ball goes to the assistant referee, the ball goes more to the right side of the field of play. As a referee, you ball goes more to the right side of the field of play. As a referee, you are the person responsible for seeing if the ball's inside or the foul is inside or outside the penalty area, also on the right side of the pitch. So positioning more to the right side is also a thing. Now, it's something that you're not always aware of, because if the ball goes into the penalty area with a cross or something, you might follow play and then your back might be slightly turned towards your assistant referee. The benefit of seeing fouls like that on the right side of the penalty area is now it is more crucial than slightly turning your back to your assistant referee. In the end you get the signal from your assistant referee.
Speaker 2:If you use VipaFlex, it's easy. If you have a headset or comms, it's also easy. But even if you don't have them, everyone will shout if the assistant referee raises his flag. So in the end you know it soon enough. So making the best decision, and if you're close on the right side of the pitch, you're close to the situation. You can easily sell it. If you have to give a penalty kick, if you go into your diagonal, you're way too far, and if you give it inside or outside the penalty area, you should do lots of game management or you got a lot of things to manage. If you want to sell that as a penalty kick because you say but your position was totally off. So that's also a thing that's in recent was quite popular yeah, I got some great feedback.
Speaker 1:So I got the mentor at our state cup a few weeks ago and one of our national referee coaches who was mentoring the men the mentors me gave some great language to me. He used the words making sure that you need to have a clear view of the play. So you're moving to have a clear view. But you could have a clear view from 30 meters away. If the goalkeepers is punting the ball up the pitch, you don't need to be standing 10 meters away from him. But when there is action meaning there's a challenge potentially happening that you need to make sure that you have proximity, a good angle on the play to be able to have credibility when you make the call. And so I've never really had the words before to describe it, but I think that's the big thing people are pushing as opposed to.
Speaker 1:I've heard people say yes, the diagonal. I heard someone the other day say it's a figure eight. I'm like what the hell are you talking about? Now? It's about clear view, good angle, proximity when you need it so you can be credible when you make a call. At least that's how it was explained to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and when you said angle, that triggered something for me. Like sometimes you can follow play closely if you go straight behind the attacker and the defender, but one of them is blocking your view. Defender, but one of them is blocking your view. So you better go to more to the side and that a bigger gap between you and the ball, but you create a much better angle. So if the player is pushing or pulling, you're having the view from the side and into the situation instead of in the back of one of the persons, so then you create a bigger distance but a better view. So that's also something that's also crucial for you to take into account if you're hearing this podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, absolutely. It's one of my favorite things about using the Ref6 app. I don't know, do you use Ref6? Yeah, yeah, I'm like I've been a Ref6 disciple forever and, by the way, like I've been a ref six disciple forever and, by the way, those people listening out there use code. Refs need love for 10% off. If you're doing a subscription, just put the code in next time. 10% off monthly annual plans if you use it. But I, I do.
Speaker 1:After every game, one of my favorite things to do is to go on there, look at my heat map and look at my runs and I if for a number of different reasons, but you'll see that they're kind of diagonal.
Speaker 1:But and I if for a number of different reasons, but you'll see that they're on a diagonal, but sometimes they're not. Sometimes there's something that takes me to a part of the pitch that I wouldn't normally be running there, but the play demands it, the action demands it, that I am a little bit off that diagonal, or significantly off, because that's where the action is. I need to get over there because two players are starting a scuffle and I need to break people apart, or it's late in the game and they're trying to waste time down in the corner. I need to be close to that. You never know what's going to happen. Someone's going to run into the goal at the end of the game and take the ball out and get in a fight with the goalkeeper. I might need to be in the goal. You just need to think about the match aware. The goal you just need to think about, be match aware, think about the situations and make sure you've got good angle and proximity to be able to be there if you're needed, without a doubt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you need to look forward. What's the next decision you have to make? Some referees try to be close to a defending player with the ball. Okay, if the player got chased by one of the attackers, you need to be aware, because he might lose the ball and you need to change direction. But most of the times there's a free ball. The attacker is 10, 15 meters away because they go back to their own half. Look forward, he's going to give the long ball and at one point you read the game he's going to play to the left back or he's going to always play the long ball. If he's always playing the long ball, you can be a few steps ahead. You know that's where the ball probably going to land and that's where the next decision has to be.
Speaker 1:So that's why you have to be. I tell you. I know on your website, beyond being a referee coach in terms of the laws of the game and talking about just movement, like we are here you also are very into fitness and you have a number of blogs and a lot of things about referee fitness. But what are some of the things? For people like me, might be older or anyone who's out there as a referee, what do you recommend they're doing during the week to make sure that they can perform on the weekend?
Speaker 2:It also depends how many games you do in the weekend. In the land it's just one day. If it's just one day, I try to do a very intense training session on Tuesdays, Also a training session on, but it's a bit more moderate, so not that intense. My games are on Saturdays, so that's how my weeks look like, but I also do I'm going close to 40 as well, so I need to do.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're a baby.
Speaker 2:You're a baby Injury prevention stuff and my calf was hurting earlier this season so I had to call off and take a little bit of rest. I was a bit lazy with my exercises. So on Monday and Wednesday I do exercises to train my calf, to train my knees, my upper legs.
Speaker 1:Is it like band work or plyometrics?
Speaker 2:what type of work are you doing? Yes, bit of stretching I. Just, if I'm on a yeah, some something higher than the ground and I'm on my toes, I let myself do my heels down and then go up again, and you can do that with weights as well. You do a bulk. It's called split squats or something you do some sort of lunges. Yeah, all those things are good for your your hamstrings as well, your legs. So these are things that also help you get more explosive for sprints. These are the muscles that you need and that's what you should train for. Of course, you can do some sort of things for your arms and stuff, but it's usually not what you need to show a yellow card. You better focus on the leg work and then things you need as a referee. And, of course, you need your core. So you can do some core stability exercises and you can easily find them on YouTube or everywhere online if you look for core stability. That's also good if your core is good. So your hips, your back, it all the muscles are attached, or the muscles for your hamstring everything's working together so you can do the those things as well. But, yeah, be aware that you need to do exercises you and train in different training loads as well. Like we do sprints, we vary on speed if we do exercises and even in our association there's also plus people like 70 year old plus people. If you want to train, make sure there's a difference between jogging and an acceleration and I know if you're 70, the acceleration that could be the same as a normal person jogging. That's totally fine, but let's see the difference, because if you vary in speed, that's also what helps you training and gives you something different, what helped me personally a lot.
Speaker 2:I do now the training sessions a week what I did when I was let's call it a beginning referee, but I said, oh yeah, I got stuck in traffic today from work.
Speaker 2:I deserve a day off on the couch. You have to commit to it. And when I commit to two training sessions a week sometimes there's a pub quiz and I go there and sometimes I have a work meeting or dinner in the evening I'll change my plans and do, instead of a Thursday evening training I might do on Friday morning and then do a match day minus one training which is more relaxed and to put some accelerations in just the day before the match. Maybe it's 40 minutes, not an hour, but at least I stick to the plan. Two training sessions a week. If I can't do it on Tuesday, I try to do it on Mondays. There's always time and of course you have to look for your opportunities, because everyone has a busy family life and everyone work life. There's a lot of things to combine and if you can't do it for an hour 45 minutes, there's usually some way to find time for a training session or exercises yeah, I credit, being a referee is the reason why I work out.
Speaker 1:So I I work out to be able to ref and I ref because it drives me to work out, because I know it makes a difference on the pitch we talked about proximity and angle If you're not fit, you're not going to be able to get where you need to be able to see the play, to have credibility, to make the call. I will also say, too, it makes a difference. When you see a referee out on the pitch who looks fit, okay, that goes a long way to your credibility in the match. Just when they see you walk out there and you look like you're in shape, okay, that makes a difference. It makes a difference to the spectators, to the players, to the coaches, and if they see you working out there, it makes a difference. I got to tell you I've had coaches come up to me before the match when I'm doing my pre-match warmupup saying, okay, we've got a professional today, just because I'm doing a proper warm-up.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's amazing some some are just laid and think I'll turn up and see how it goes. Yeah, I do a proper warm-up. I also do a good sprint. Especially I love it when the crowd's there just a long sprint and people and some like some referee said, or some spectators, don don't give everything. Now you still have to referee a game and then during the game you can prove you can also do that. But some love that feeling just to show to the people that you're fit and they think, oh, today we have a fit referee. It makes even for the people around them a big difference. That's how they look at you and how you're perceived.
Speaker 1:I think so. One more thing I want to talk to you about is about growth mindset. So I think that's such an interesting word. I have to tell you, in the last year and a half to two years, I've probably used that phrase more than I ever have in my entire life, and I think I used it like in my professional life, but I use it so much more now as a referee and I want to. What do you think about in terms of growth mindset when you talk about that? Are you talking about the refs? Are you talking about for players, for coaches? How do you talk about growth mindset?
Speaker 2:Yeah, in my opinion it's not. Every referee can become better and improve and learn, and it's not just when you get labeled you're a talented ref. Everyone, especially if you're willing to improve, then that's the right mindset. That's when you can prove and show you're able to become a better referee. You can grow, you can, can improve, and that's what I always love to see for readers of my blog. My course participants like that's the bit, like some basics that you need to from a to b, and this is a is where you are at a referee and b is where you want to become as a referee. And it's a path and sometimes become as a referee. And it's a path and sometimes there's always ups and downs, but in the end, if you believe you can become better and it's not just like earning a promotion or something, but it's just doing small things better next time and learn from it. And that's also what I want to highlight in January on my blog. I want to talk more January on my blog. I want to talk more about goal setting. You already mentioned the self-scan, but also the mindset.
Speaker 2:I want people to change the way they think about refereeing and recently there was a referee that said oh, around me says I'm 45. I can't reach a certain level. And of course when you're 45 and you start the game, it's difficult to reach the professional level. Or in the Netherlands it would be impossible, because usually minimum age, maximum age might be around 45. But it doesn't matter, you can't get to a higher level. Talk to him about it. No, this is not it. Change the way you think or change. Don't care what the others say, like some people might say, oh, you're too old, you're never gonna make it, or whatever. That's negativity. It's all about positivity, in my opinion. And if you think, oh yeah, even if you're still at youth level, you can go from group g to group a, and of course there's a lot of letters in between, but you can. Every season you can get a step higher, getting better games and improving as a referee, and even work on small things and even if you're eager to learn that.
Speaker 2:In the netherlands you have, of course, the regular courses, but there's also every season a few sessions that every referee, no matter what your level is, can follow. Sometimes there's five themes. It could be nutrition, it could be training, it could be cooperation with your assistant referees. You get one session, you can do none, but you can also do all five and it's a bit of attitude what do you want and what do you make time for? Yeah, that's what I see. People will join the sessions and were eager to learn and said, okay, no, I'm going to the session because every time I hear something new and you see those level. Those referees progress through the levels because they want to become a better referee. And there's always a bit of luck because sometimes two, three people in your group will go up. But if the mindset is right, you can go far can you mention?
Speaker 1:talk about that real briefly. You talked about the levels, even for someone who's a youth referee. You talked about g through a. So where is that? Is there like a referee pyramid? Like a? You start at a g level and you can work your way up to a, and that A is the highest level of clubs, the most competitive, and G is more recreational matches. How does that work?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, as a referee. And the course you started you become a referee in a start group and in the next you choose whether you want to root out of sorry. In the next you choose whether you want to referee adult games or youth games. So it's a thing. And there are two pyramids. So after you've chosen one, you go up that pyramid and you can go from one pyramid to the other. You can say, okay, I'm a youth referee, I want to do adults, and they rate adult refereeing a bit higher than youth refereeing. But in the end you can switch from one period to another and you go from G to Group A and you can also relegate if you want.
Speaker 2:No not if you want, but it can happen.
Speaker 1:So like what percentage? This was interesting because in England they do something similar. We don't have that here in the United States, Like 98% of all referees are called grassroots and then, if you get three professional assessments, you pass the FIFA fitness test and you get invited. You can become a regional and then you go national and professional, but there's no ability to move up and down in the United States. So is it like the top 10% of referees move up from G to F and from F to E every year? Is that how it works?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and sometimes there are minimum requirements. So, like you have to at least officiate 20 games or they mix the law, we have a mentor or assessor and they combine it also with your laws of the game knowledge Season. They also got a fitness test for everyone. It's not the FIFA test, everyone, it's not the fifa test, but it's 40 meters and your speed improves. So every run, or every two runs back and forth, then it goes faster, faster. Yeah, based on how far you come, you get some sort of points and your fitness, your loss of the game knowledge and your performance matches up as one mark and then the tops 10% or whatever goes up. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think they call that the beep test, if I'm not mistaken, in some countries where you're running back and forth and shuttling yeah, it's something like that and they introduced something new this season and it's a little bit different.
Speaker 2:But it's 40 meters and then 10 seconds rest and then you go back and speed goes up.
Speaker 1:I am so appreciative for everything you've done, all the information you shared. Would you mind telling everyone again how can they find you online, how can they take these quizzes, how can they learn from you?
Speaker 2:Everyone can find me on dutchrefereecom and if you want to do the cell scan, it's just dutchrefereecom slash cell scan. But it's easy to find Dutch Referee on social media. I'm mostly active on Instagram. You can also follow me on Facebook. I publish usually both, but if you want to send me a message, send me a message on an Instagram or email to Jan, which is Jan at dutchrefereecom. I'll get an email. You can see it. You can subscribe to a newsletter. I do it every month now and you get useful links to the quiz you get like everything you need to become a better referee.
Speaker 1:I know that this is a labor of love. It's not like you're getting paid millions of dollars to put out all of this amazing content, but you do it in your free time to help all of us learn and grow and I just want to say thank you so much for that, jan. All right guys. Hey, thank you so much for participating and listening in today's podcast. I hope you guys enjoyed it.
Speaker 1:I find it so interesting to learn about what referees go through and how they grow and develop in other countries. Hopefully we can learn from what the KNVB is doing over there. I would love to have mentoring every single month for our young refs. How cool would that be? Oh, my gosh, so cool. And, of course, guys, please support the Refs Need Love 2 store online and social channels. I am wearing the have you Been Naughty Christmas sweater, so if you do see this online, check it out. It is definitely wonderful and a lot of fun that you can bust it out all holidays long. Pick up any other merch, treat yourself to some new cards, a whistle, a coin, anything. Everything gets poured back into this channel and making it possible. I wish everyone all the best. Jan, I just again want to say Dank je wel. Thank you so much for being here, sir. It was a pleasure to me Outstanding All right guys. I wish everyone the best and I hope your next match is red card free. We'll see you next time.