REFS NEED LOVE TOO
An honest perspective from the 3rd team on the pitch... the referees. Through humor, analysis and education, we are slowly changing how people view referees and officials in all sports. We care and have a love for the game as much as any player or coach. Sometimes even more. Youth soccer (proper football) is a multi-billion $ industry in the US. Tremendous money is spent on players, competitions, travel etc., but almost nothing spent on developing the next generation of referees. I hope that this Podcast inspires, educates and humanizes the next generation of referees for their own development and appreciation from the players, coaches and spectators they need to work alongside.
REFS NEED LOVE TOO
Guest Appearance on the High Kicks Podcast: Getting to the Heart of Officiating
I had the pleasure of being a guest on the High Kicks Podcast. The discussion was fun and informative. I had a blast talking about what I love about being a ref and the challenges of being an official in the beautiful game.
The episode ventures into the world of professional refereeing, where the pressure is immense and errors are an inevitable part of the job. We offered a compelling look at the human side of officiating, recognizing the split-second decisions referees must make and the scrutiny they face, even with technological aids like VAR. We discuss the emotional charged atmosphere in sports, differentiating between frustration and personal attacks from players and fans, and how referees maintain their composure amidst it all. The insights shed light on the complexities of the job and the resilience required to thrive in such an intense environment.
Technology’s role in refereeing is a hot topic, and we explore its evolving presence in the game, from automated offsides to the balance between tech and the human touch. David weighs in on the challenges and opportunities that come with these advancements, advocating for better communication to help fans understand referee decisions. We also discuss issues of bias and professionalism, reflecting on high-profile incidents and their impact on the perception of referees. Whether you're a fan, a player, or someone intrigued by the art of officiating, this episode is packed with insights and anecdotes that illuminate the often misunderstood world of referees.
Hello and welcome to the refs. Need love to podcast a show that gets real raw and behind the scenes and one of the hardest jobs on the pitch the referee I'm your host, david Gerson, and I think I'm close to like 1300 matches after this wonderful year of 2024 here to bring you something actually really special this week. But before I do that, I do want to remind you, guys, it is the holidays. Yo, treat yourself this year, man. Hook yourself up with some cards. If you haven't gotten some cards from the shop, they are by far the best cards you will ever use as a referee.
Speaker 1:A coin, a brand new whistle that's powerful. The monster that's got the engraving on it. The rest of you love too. And, man, I have so much like cool swag. I just launched some awesome socks that are so cool for referee signals and for assistant referee signals, and the may the laws be with you t-shirt. You got to check them out, guys. Treat yourself this holiday season All right. This week on the pod, guys, I actually was on someone else's podcast and I thought it was such a good interview I wanted to share with you and I know I've done this a few times in the past, but I really was up for this one. These guys are huge premier league fans on their podcast and they want to chat a little premier league, which we've had some interesting events happening over the last couple months or so we want to talk about and really getting into the mind of the referee.
Speaker 2:I think this one was one of my better guest appearances and and I think you guys are going to enjoy it too the man gives the best descriptions of any kind of officiating I have seen on the internet and I just want to say welcome to the show, david.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm so thrilled to be here. Yeah, absolutely a pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:I just want to ask can you give us a little bit of a background on yourself, like what got you started as an official? What got you into making content? I feel like it's a very big niche of content in the footy community. That is something that is absolutely needed and you excel in it so well.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that. Honestly, I got to tell you I have always been someone who makes unpopular choices. My high school yearbook quote is it's better to stand alone for the right reasons than be together for the wrong. Like, I've always been someone who's been like, highly principled Not that I haven't had fun and partied and had a great time throughout my life, but I'm always someone like if I believe something, yeah, I'm going to say it, you know, and I'm going to be honest and transparent in that. And so that's just followed through.
Speaker 1:Throughout my life I always been in leadership positions and then I played rugby. In college I was the president of the rugby team and a team captain and by my final year playing rugby as a senior in college, I got a little burnt out. I had played since I was like a freshman year, first semester, and I decided to start refereeing some games because I was doing it through scrimmages when I was injured or had bad stitches or something like that, got messed up and I really got into it and loved it and then, fast forward, stopped playing rugby. My kids started playing soccer and then when my son turned 10, he wanted to start refereeing and I had done some reffing when we lived in the Netherlands for a while different part of the story, whole tangent. But over there they had the parents ref the games when he was like eight years old and nine years old.
Speaker 1:I loved it and I would always volunteer. Even though I didn't speak the language in Dutch, I would still go out there and make the motions and everything and I learned enough to be able to communicate. But when he wanted to start reffing at 10 and I was like I'm going to drive into the fields, I'm going to get certified too. And it's been 10 years. I've probably reffed over 1300 matches and I just love it. I love being able to give back to the game that's given so much to me and my family.
Speaker 1:I love being out there providing a service to my community, because it sucks having a bad ref and people love it when they have a good ref out there and quite honestly, I feel like I'm being an ambassador for officials that it's just a nice thing when people see someone out there enjoying themselves properly applying the laws of the game.
Speaker 2:it gives refs a good name, so I love doing it for those reasons what I would give to have had an official like you when I was playing.
Speaker 1:Oh my, I know again as a spectator and as a coach. I coach coached until he was 12. It can be painful when you have a bad ref. I believe a good reason to become a ref is spite. If you hate crapping, you should have your ref out there.
Speaker 1:Seriously, that's the kind of person I am. I am not the one who's just going to sit there and talk about it. If I've got a problem with something, I'm going to do something about it, and it's the way I feel about reffing as well. I I again I didn't yell.
Speaker 1:I wasn't that kind of guy because I was a rugby ref, okay, in college and I played rugby in college, and in rugby you address the referee as sir and the only person who talks to the referee is the captain, and you have to be very respectful. You talk in very calm tones. It's a very intense game, so I had that training coming into soccer so I was always a little different, but I apply that as an official now. I'm always addressing people in this very calm, professional, friendly tone and I ask for the same in return, and it just changes the dynamic from what's normally a very highly charged, frustrating environment to one that can be pleasant and games are intense. There's no doubt and I'm reffing at like the highest levels of youth and like some semi-professional I try and treat everyone like with respect and they see me given like tons of energy and passion and they give me respect back and it's wonderful.
Speaker 1:Well, I honestly dude dave, that's one hell of an introduction man. I hate, I hate the shit that that was. It's hard to go from there because obviously so yeah, you've been doing this for 10 years. Like what's the craziest experience you've had like on a pitch before I? I've had some amazing games.
Speaker 1:I will tell you, sometimes even low levels of competition can be really dramatic. I will tell you, a U12 recreational tournament final okay, can be some of the most intense and wild and loud experiences that you can have in grassroots soccer and so I love doing that. I will tell you, I don't turn my nose up at any competition. You're never going to see me go out there and be like, oh, like yesterday I did two MLS matches MLS next, not next and they roll up on the team bus from Nashville and everything's very professional. But I'm happy to go out and do a recreational match because I appreciate that they're playing, because they love the game, even at 17, 18, 19,. They're coming up because they want to stay active, so they always get my best.
Speaker 1:I will tell you, the craziest stuff I've had is when I was a referee for it's an adult amateur, so not 7v7, 11v11, full-size pitch a lot of former college and semi-professional players and I was the assistant AR1 on one side. My son was the assistant on the other side. He's 17 years old and there was a really difficult decision that happened right in front of where my son was and the referee went to go talk to my son about it. He goes back and there was a bunch of like a mass confrontation, some pussy shoving, a little bit of punching. The referee goes into this kind of group and pulls out a red card for the player who had the challenge. That led to the confrontation. And I'm on one side of this melee. My son is on the other side, about 30 yards away, and I see the guy who just got red carded take a run at my son, full speed, a train running to go attack my son.
Speaker 2:That's got to be terrifying. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:And so I run and I'm screaming at the guy as I get up there I'm like I like push the in between the two of them. And I tell you, man, if it's as a dad, to see your 17 year old, 130 pound son when this big adult, like 26 year old, like intense dude, like screaming at him, that was crazy. Now, thankfully that doesn't happen often, it's rare, but those are the things, and there's emotion and joy, there's emotion and frustration, but I actually find it to be really cathartic. I love being out there, being in the zone, knowing that when I'm on the pitch I need to be 100% dialed in to every single second out there, and I find it to be such a wonderful distraction from everything else going on in life.
Speaker 2:I did. I really I'm the same way. Like I have some baseball umpiring experience and same thing. Like you, just a flow state thing. You just get so dialed in that you're just enjoying yourself and having a great time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, without a doubt, I can tell you the best example. If you asked me to go out and run five miles, I would say hell, no, kill me now, drive a stake through my eye, I'd rather die. If you put me on the pitch, I will run 20 miles in a weekend and have nothing but a smile on my face. I mean, I do match after match, five miles at a time. I had one day just three weeks ago where I had three centers in a row, all very high level competition, minimum of five miles on the pitch, and some of that's walking, some is jogging, some sprinting. But I've got no complaints. Just when you're in it, you're having fun, it's competitive, you're giving your best effort, you're working as hard as possible and I find it just enjoyable. Kudos to you. I would not be able to do that you know our kids.
Speaker 1:Listen man, I I ref to stay fit and I stay fit to ref. It gives me purpose during the week. I know that tomorrow is going to be my high intensity workout for the week and then th tomorrow is going to be my high intensity workout for the week and then Thursday is going to be more of my distance workout for the week and a little bit of a like, more of a lift, because I want to be fit to be able to referee on the weekend. So it it helps me stay in shape and also being a ref on the weekends helps me stay in shape and allows me to have my beer and ice cream during the week that I like to have the wonderful trade-off yeah.
Speaker 3:So, david, I know like you're such a friendly person overall, like everything like about you, it's gleaming. I personally think I would love you as a ref, but even though you say you put 150 into every single match, into everything, are there situations where you think you make a mistake Because, honestly, I think you're an amazing ref and I haven't even had you on the field but, yeah, can you speak on any instances where you're like, looking back, I could have gone like one way or another, but it's just, it's what it is. It's the sport. There is error in every single situation. There's no way to take that out. So I'm just curious, like from a ref how do you feel?
Speaker 1:about it, absolutely A hundred percent of the time. There's never going to be a game where I'm going to get every decision right. There's going to be a throw in, decision wrong, there's going to be a foul. I got wrong, maybe I gave a card and it shouldn't have been a card, or maybe I didn't give a card and it shouldn't give a card, because I'm watching it in real time with one view I got two eyes. Okay, there's 22 pitch players on the pitch. I'm covering a massive distance, right, so we're talking a pitch again. That's about potentially 60, 70 yards wide, a hundred 110 yards long. There's one of me right, and everyone's oh, the AR should have seen it. No, they're watching the off. So you've got other stuff to be worried about than the fouls and I've got one split second to make a decision from one perspective on the field.
Speaker 1:And I think that's what people don't understand is these are human beings moving at very fast speeds. There are lots of things to consider and, yes, I'm going to make a mistake. And again, even the professionals and I know you guys are big Premier League fans even these people whose full-time job it is to be a professional referee and they've got professional referee assistants and they have a fourth official who's also watching that match. They are still going to make mistakes. And they even have video assistant referees and an assistant video assistant referee and they're still going to make a mistake because it's not freaking easy.
Speaker 1:But there's also no perfect player and there's no perfect coach, and there's no single game where they're going to take every single shot and it's going to be upper 90 top bins every single time and there's not going to be any single time when someone's making a hundred percent of their passes. We all make mistakes. That's part of what makes the game so like absolutely engaging and infuriating, and what we love about it is how fluid it is and how absolutely chaotic it can be. That's the beauty of it. So, yes, as a ref, I will make mistakes, but it's going to be a lot less mistakes than the people on the pitch make. I promise you. Yes.
Speaker 2:I want to piggyback off that real quick because I've had a lot of refs make a lot of mistakes in my life.
Speaker 1:I just want to say in your opinion, they've made a lot of mistakes. That doesn't mean that it was oh that's totally fair.
Speaker 2:Totally fair, because you're probably biased with a particular perspective.
Speaker 1:Absolutely I want to clarify Absolutely. Let's rephrase this you have some decisions referees make where you believe they've made mistakes?
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Yes so to piggyback off of that.
Speaker 2:What's the craziest thing, like a player has said to you in response to a mistake that they think you've made. I know one time I was sliding out of the box trying to stop the ball with my hand on the line, and the official called for about 80 yards up the field, that I was out of the box when I touched it, even though the ball is very clearly on the line, and my 16-year-old asshole self popped up and told the ref that he needed to get his eyes checked. It's the only yellow card I ever got in my entire career wow, I yeah and it easily could have been read yep, it was very much deserved.
Speaker 2:Very well could have been read, but have you had something like that happen to you, oh?
Speaker 1:I had a kid yesterday, just you know. Clearly, yesterday I was saturday, sorry so sat today's Monday. Yeah, so Saturday there was a throw in decision he didn't like and out loud, and he didn't. I think he said this towards my assistant referee. It could have been a red card. Am I allowed to cuss on this? Oh?
Speaker 2:absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:He pretty much, I don't know yell might be a lot, but he's upset and agitated and goes are you kidding me Out loud? He's a 15 year old kid, a child who's like a freshman in high school, but yelling that towards an official. And again, if he would have said you're a joke, okay, that would be a red card. Oh, like an exasperation out loud, like as he's walking away are you kidding me? Would go in the yellow card in high school. It would be a straight red. But in club we give a little bit more latitude. But I think it's normal and I think one of the things that referees, especially at the grassroots, have to get accustomed to is appreciating what I call atmosphere or outbursts of emotion, that when someone is upset they're not attacking you as a person, like he's not saying David Gerson, I hate you.
Speaker 1:He's saying David Gerson, I disagree with your opinion on that call I disagree with your opinion, I'm angry about it and I'm taking it out on you yeah, and I'm voicing that frustration and and I think we we have to understand that is part of being a referee that we pass judgment and we're going to make calls and every time we make a call, 50 of the people are going to like it and 50 of the people are going to hate it. I'm the people are gonna hate it. I'm gonna tell you, man, like I go I live in atlanta. You go to an atlanta united game and I'm watching the play and there could be the most obvious foul ever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but atlanta united player commits and the entire. When the ref calls, it, blows the whistle, shows a card. Everyone's because we watch the game and and we, we, through these very biased lenses and people react emotionally to it and and to be a referee, you have to be able to learn the difference between what is atmosphere just sounds, that people make, what is an outburst of emotion, what is clearly dissent okay, meaning they're trying to attack my credibility and you address it. And then where does it cross the line into what we call off in a bus, which is offensive, insulting and abusive language and requires a red card and that takes a long time to uh, develop? But yes, people making outbursts like that is pretty much every week of my life. That's right I.
Speaker 2:I would not be able to.
Speaker 1:I got a short temper that way that brian, I'm sorry I've been holding in the entire time. He told the ref to get his eyes checked and it's just I also.
Speaker 2:I've had to hold myself back from asking refs if they've got their stripes from footlocker. That one I don't think would go over well well, do you have a favorite insult.
Speaker 1:I this is true now I wasn't reffing this match, I was watching my son play, so this wasn't said out loud and I I don't think I would have thrown this parent off, I just think it's funny. He said I've seen a better yellow in a box of crayons and I thought that shit was really first. I like that.
Speaker 1:I like I thought that was really good people say the most disgusting, offensive things as well. I've got literally. I started taking notes when I would watch my son play high school, I would just like or club matches. I would just literally take out my phone and jot down what people would say. I've heard it all. Some things are outrageously offensive, like really offensive, and I think what people don't understand, especially at high school and grassroots, not at the professional level, like professionals like they may live in Fort Lauderdale and they're flying them out to Seattle If it's a high school match or it's a grassroots match and even semi-professional. Dude, I live in your neighborhood, man or in the same classes.
Speaker 1:Buddy, like literally, our wives are friends, like it. But when they see someone in that jersey, all of a sudden they stop treating them like a human being who's in their community and they start yelling at them Like they are some, like evil, supervillain, villain who's got no emotion at all and it's just trying to destroy their world. And it's it can be. It's sad. Again, I'm the kind of person who sees everything in the positive. That's like my mental disability, so I tried to laugh it off, but it can be really upsetting. And the number one reason why we lose referees and we lose 80% of our soccer referees within three years is due to spectator abuse. So again it's I've learned, I've lived with it long enough and also, I don't deal with it, I address it. I've definitely thrown out parents, I've definitely thrown out coaches, I've definitely sent kids off Um, but it's the number one thing that that is the reason why officiating is pretty bad is because we have such outrageously high turnover, and the number one reason is spectator abuse.
Speaker 2:Throwing out a coach is one of the greatest experiences I've ever had in my entire life. I've done it once in a third grade baseball game. You love it.
Speaker 1:It's great, it's great it is a good feeling. I'm not gonna lie, it's a good thing, oh, yeah. Yeah, you're helping the game when you do it, you're helping the game again, and one of the a lot of the coaching I give to referees is what you permit is what you accept, and so if you don't address it, essentially you're just stoking that fire. You're showing that coach that what they're doing is acceptable and they're going to grow and the fire is going to continue to burn and it's just going to get worse and worse. So I always the reason why I address it and I take it so seriously is I'm paying it forward to the next official. I want them to. That coach knows that's unacceptable. I'm writing a report. They're going to get in trouble with the league board and I want to make sure that they're not doing it to the next official too. That's why I do it.
Speaker 2:I like that. I like that. I like that a lot. So I did an episode for my friend Kyle's podcast talking about officiating a while back and we went into some questions about the issues that have happened. Recently happened with Arsenal and some other clubs where the ball no one was sure if it was out of bounds or not because it was in the air, and my simple solution was just put the goal line technology in the corner flag so we just know when the ball is in or out. And I just want to know if you A think that is feasible or and B think that's something that could be done.
Speaker 1:It's not feasible with the Hawkeye technology that they use for the goal, because we're talking about right now. For Hawkeye technology, I believe there's 21 cameras. That's only covering a space that's 8 feet high and 18 feet across. So, I'm sorry, no, 24 feet across, eight feet high, 24 feet across, you have 21 cameras to be able to get that. Exactly right. But with the new automated offside technology the same type of technology that they use the World Cup, where there's a microchip inside the ball and it's taking a it's able to get a ping 500 times a second You'll have a much better chance of actually being able to get the exact positioning Now in the Premier League.
Speaker 1:They're overdue. They were supposed to implement the automated offside technology in October of this year, but they're behind schedule again because it requires so much investment. We're talking millions of dollars of cameras and technology and sensors at every single one of the 20 premier league pitches, and so it's a huge investment. And so, yes, eventually you will have the same type of technology to be able to detect ball location on the goal line. Again, it was in the world cup this year. You'll have it at the next world cup as well. It's probably another year or two away from Premier League, but yes, it would be a wonderful thing to have because it's a key match decision. There are really two key match decisions that an assistant referee can make, if they're in the right position. It's offside and whether the ball is in and out on the goal line. Is it a goal, is it not? Is the ball out of play? Is it in play? And yes, I think it's important and it eventually will come. It's just a lot of money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I totally the money side makes sense. I just I can't wait for the semi-automated to come to the Premier League. I can't wait for just technology to be used more properly, I would think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, again, the challenge is, of course, is you've got again the Etihad and you've got Tottenham Stadium, but you also have Hitswich and you've got Fortnum and you've got like Southampton you have to think about. They've got to roll this technology out at the same quality at every single one of these locations, and teams get promoted every year, they get relegated every year. There's massive investments that need to be made to be able to make things happen, and everything has to be perfectly calibrated. So it's just not as simple as saying hey, we're going to set up a camera, we're all good. Now, again, we're talking about not one camera, we're not talking about one sensor.
Speaker 1:We're talking about hundreds and many millions of dollars that each one of these stadiums needs to pay for those upgrades, and no one wants to make the investment. It's coming because we demand it. Are you a? I will say, though, dave, are you a purist, or do you embrace the robot overlords overseeing our games? Hey, so it's a great question.
Speaker 1:I think that there's something beautiful about the fact that a referee makes a call in the moment on the pitch, because we have all seen and this is not robotic, but I believe that there have been over the last couple of years with VAR, they have been what I call VAR red cards when, on the pitch, the referee, who was in perfect position and saw the challenge live, was like, no, there's not enough in it, it's a yellow card or no card at all. And then you go to red card and we're looking at things in this 60 frames, a second world, from 20 different angles, and you're like, oh my gosh, he could have broken his shin, and then it becomes a red card. That's a problem, because what we're looking for is the referee, who's in the moment, who's feeling. What does the game need at that moment? Right, yeah, and sometimes there's a challenge that's a red card challenge. All the things going on was retaliatory Foot was crazy high, pace was really high, all those things. Okay, it's a red card. But there are other times where sometimes there's contact that might be high. Where the force was medium, there wasn't much in it at all. He was pulling out.
Speaker 1:But man, if you do one frame stop motion really slow, it's awful. And yeah, I think that's a problem and they've tried to improve it this year. They've told referees that you can only slow things down to be able to see contact point. But when you're looking at the play it needs to be in full speed. But I gotta tell you, watching some of the reviews they've done, it looks like they're still going in this super slow-mo which makes everything look awful. Okay, I think that's a problem. It should be, honestly it's.
Speaker 1:I feel like they should, if they're bringing them to the monitor, show it to them three times in full speed If they don't want to change their decision at full speed, that's it. That's it. They stick with what's on the field. Enough of this slow-mo, crazy crap, because you're literally splitting hairs and I don't think that's how the game should be played. On the flip side, beyond the ball, depending on the situation closer to the goal line. Yes, it should be to the millimeter, because if you don't, if you don't do that, then what you're going to have happen is what happens right now, where everyone goes on to the shows after the game, they all talk about what a horrible decision. Look at this, he was a foot on side, or he was six inches off side, or whatever it is. We need to be precise, and so I think, in those situations, precise and the robot overlord, I'd take him every time I feel like that really speaks on the Lewandowski offsides.
Speaker 3:That just happened. I don't. That wasn't even his foot. Yeah, exactly that's what I mean At that point.
Speaker 2:And, by the way, not a bars fan but that wasn't In Luthenon.
Speaker 1:It could be his butt cheek, it could be his penis. I don't know Whatever it is If it's beyond the second to last part Of the law. When I say it wasn't His foot, when I say it wasn't His foot.
Speaker 2:It was the defender's foot From what it looked like and they were, I don't know. I just that one it was. Unless he has size 18 feet, he could you never know.
Speaker 1:You never know. But I will just say this again for all the that we lament about VAR, it has made decisions better, or it is, and they've done. The statistics when VAR comes involved, 80, 85% of the time they are helping to make the right decision. There's still going to be something that's subjective or something that's missed. Again, I'll just remind you, there's 22 players on the pitch. There's a lot of stuff that's happening and we're also telling the VAR don't slow the game down. Make decisions crazy fast, as fast as you possibly can Get the game going again. We don't want to stop the game.
Speaker 1:And you've got these guys in the booth who are trying to like, hey, look at this, okay, great. They've looked at that, okay, it's fine. And then go on. And then later someone's got another angle from the stands that the VAR didn't have, where they break something down on one of these review shows. I'm like, oh, how did they not see this pull? How did they not see that trip Dude, there's a lot of stuff going out there, on out there. They're doing the best they can. It will never be perfect. I think that's the one thing that I always try and remind people who reach out to me is. It's not going to be perfect. Your players are not going to be perfect, your refs are not going to be perfect.
Speaker 2:Live with it, deal with it, learn to accept it and something so many people forget about is the ref doesn't have the full angle of the field. It's something as a goalie. I saw everything. I saw everything from behind. I could see what was going on. I could see people getting chippy when the ref wasn't looking, and I understand that the ref can't see everything.
Speaker 1:Wait, stop one second, okay, Brian. Yes, ref can't see everything. Okay, wait, stop one second, okay, brian. Yes, you yelled at a referee that he should get his eyes checked, or where he got his glasses from, because he was like too far away. And you're telling me, right, as a goalkeeper, you saw everything perfectly. No, I'm not saying. I'm not saying I saw everything perfectly.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying I saw everything perfectly. I'm saying that I had a view of things the ref couldn't see. So when I'm watching on TV, I understand the ref couldn't see everything. I'm not trying to say I saw everything perfectly, absolutely not.
Speaker 1:Absolutely not Just checking. I'm trying to say that.
Speaker 2:I understand that you guys can't see everything, because I saw things on the pitch that the ref didn't see.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it happens every game. I'll have someone come up to me and say, hey, this kid is grabbing me or hey, this kid's stepping on my feet. And I take that seriously. I had that happen actually in a game where a kid came up to me and he's listening on free kicks. This kid is stepping on my Achilles Like he's raking my the back of my heel, and I'm dude, I'll watch for it. And what do you know? The next kick I see this kid like put onto the back of this kid's like heel and I immediately blew the whistle.
Speaker 1:I mean, it wasn't like egregious coming in with a two-footed challenge, but it's ridiculous. That's uncalled for, like stupid behavior. Um, go after an achilles. It's just absurd. And so I just told you're being stupid, please stop. Here's your card. But I admit to that, I can't see everything. And someone's going to say, hey, did you see him tripping? I'm like, no man, I didn't. I'm so sorry, I will definitely look for it. If I see it, I'll call him, and I think that's one thing. As a referee out there, and you admit that I'm not going to see everything and you admit that maybe I made a mistake.
Speaker 1:Players are like okay, I can deal with that. That's all it takes. I'm telling you. A little bit of being contrite and humble goes so far. I think some referees feel like no, I need to be authoritative out there, you will respect my authority, and they want to be like a tough guy kind of on the pitch and they have this like very intense. No, don't talk to me, dude, everyone's gonna hate you. I had a wonderful like life coach say to me one time if you try to be unfallible, everyone will try to fail you. If you admit to being fallible, people will do everything they can to help you. And and it's really what I try and do is I try and do what she gets to. I hope she's a referee. I'm like they're coming at me and they're angry and upset and I'm like I'm sorry you're upset. Help me understand why you're upset. Okay, great, I'll look for it and I think if you can do that and I think the best referees out there do that really well, there are a couple that I love. That just really okay, all right, yeah, okay, help me understand.
Speaker 1:I think that's what the modern referee is starting to become more of Again the Pierligi Kalinas of the world. It was like all about them and their attitude out there and they were in control. And now it's more like, hey, the players are the star of the show. We show we want to try and be more humble and try and just take it easy, get everyone to chill. There's definitely a movement. We don't want referees to be abused. I don't want referees to be crowded. We'd love to be in a conversation with the captain. It. No one should have to be surrounded like that and potentially be assaulted. And I know you're like, ah, it doesn't happen in premier league, but that stuff carries over to grassroots and semi-pro recreation and if you show that it's okay to surround a referee or bump a referee, next thing that's going to happen is they're going to punch a referee, they're going to assault a referee. So it's really important that we all you know, chill out, take it down a notch, turn down the volume a little bit, and it helps a great deal.
Speaker 2:So I got two more questions. I don't know about these guys, but one. One thing that I want to ask is I've seen this come up. I know the mls, I think, has toyed around with this and I think the nfl does it perfectly, but do you think officials should announce if our decisions? Do you think that fans watching at home and in the stadium should actually hear the reasoning behind the decisions? It's a great question.
Speaker 1:So this year they have started announcing bar decisions, but they don't do it in a way that the average fan can understand. They leave out considerations for the foul that's called. So today, if you watch a Premier League match, they are coming to the pitch, especially in the MLS and other major leagues around the world, and they're saying the original decision was a yellow card for a reckless challenge. After a video review, the new decision is a red card for reckless challenge after a video review. The new decision is a red card for serious foul play. And so they're announcing technically what has happened. We originally it was ruled a goal and has been ruled out due to offside. Um, but they don't say why it was offside. What happened? Did they interfere with the defender? Did we see that the the ball? They were past the second last defender when they received the pass. Did they interfere with the defender? Did we see that the the ball? They were past the second last defender when they received the pass. Did they interfere with the line of sight of the goalkeeper on that serious foul play? Was it? They connected with studs high above the ankle with a high degree of force. They don't explain it in a way that the average fan could possibly understand the considerations that we, as referees, have in our head and know why one challenge would be a yellow card and a reckless challenge and one challenge would be a red card in serious foul play.
Speaker 1:And I wish that all of the broadcast teams had a referee on standby that they could just patch in like a Christina uncle. Well, I absolutely adore wonderful person that can explain. Here's what happened here. Here's why this has moved from this decision to this decision or wasn't upgraded because of these things. It would just be so helpful to be able to spread the understanding of the laws of the game for the average bank. I think a lot of people think that we're just making it up, that it's just literally. He doesn't like Arsenal, or he doesn't like Tottenham, or he doesn't like United. He's trying to help City win. It's no dude. We really don't care. Okay, maybe David Coote cares, but aside from Honestly.
Speaker 1:I don't care who wins or loses, I just don't want to f**k up. How about that?
Speaker 1:yeah and Kerry put. I don't want to make a mistake. I'm trying so hard to stay engaged and look at everything and be consistent in all my calls. Literally that's the only thing I care about. I I want the game to be won by the players on the field and I want it to be a fair contest and a safe contest. Every referee feels like that. We don't care who wins or loses that game. If the team who plays better on the day and maybe they only get one shot on goal and it goals in and that's why they win, it's because they had that shot that went in, not because I made some call that was a mistake. It's all we care about as reps. That's it. Trust me, we don't care who wins or loses Ever. Everyone always speaks for themselves. I really don't care, man. I just want to get out of here and have no one talking about me after the game. That's it.
Speaker 2:Kari, you want to ask about Coots.
Speaker 1:I was just going to ask him his opinion but that said about, but that was about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're held to a higher standard. So we're talking about. David Coote was caught, recorded on someone's phone four years ago expressing his distaste for a coach in the premier league who he's reffed before numerous games, and there's two things that are really bad off. He described him in some pretty awful language. Right, yeah, you can beef this up. They call them a german, and so I just want to say that kind of put someone in some type of ethnic is never good at all, because once you're doing that for klopp, that kind of says that you might feel that way about everyone who's German or have bias for people who are German, and then he uses some really derogatory language towards this coach. Now let me tell you, jurgen Klopp is not a saint. I see how he reacts on the sideline and I see him using his big six foot five frame like absolutely towering over officials and screaming in their face, and that is just unacceptable on so many different levels, and I hate that they allow those coaches to get away with that behavior, because it makes my life as a referee on a local soccer pitch like awful, because people think they can do that kind of stuff you know again to their neighbor, who has no security or protection and is not getting paid hundreds of thousand dollars a year. So I don't forgive the behavior that Klopp has on the sideline, but as a referee, you need to be seen as someone who can be above that. You know someone who is going to stay unbiased in every situation, no matter what someone says to you. You need to stay focused on doing your job as a neutral observer and officiant of the game.
Speaker 1:And as soon as David said those words whether it was to a group of people and then obviously it's been publicized he has completely destroyed his ability to be seen as a neutral judge and official of the game and he has destroyed his career.
Speaker 1:It's not like this man can go referee in some other association someplace in the world. He has worked for this for 15, maybe 20 years to become an official and he's been part of the elite group of officials since 2017. He's on the FIFA panel of officials. He can do international matches. He has thrown all of that and he will never, ever be able to work at this level again. If a player were to say something about an official, they might get a fine. They might get a slap on the wrist or something like that, and they'd be fine. But when you're an official, when you're a referee especially at that level and you say something like that, you have completely thrown away your entire career, and I think that's what's going to happen to him. I don't think they're going to be able to bring him back, because he has no ability now to be seen as an unbiased, neutral observer of the game.
Speaker 2:I think he's definitely done. I think he's definitely done so here I'll play devil's advocate.
Speaker 1:What happens if he doesn't get thrown out of the league? It really depends on, potentially, jurgen Klopp or Liverpool if they want to back him up and say hey, listen, we've all said things we regret. We forgive him for this lapse of judgment where he was inebriated and speaking with a small group of friends. Listen, every referee out there has some feelings about a certain coach or team. There's a club here in Atlanta when we referees get together we all talk about oh my gosh, you ref one of their games last weekend. I mean, because it's ridiculous.
Speaker 1:And the player behavior, the coach behavior, the spectator behavior, those, I think, have thrown out six spectators in my 10 years and three of them were from this one club. Oh my god. But I still, even though, like I know that club has got some culture issues, I have still never, ever spoken in a personal, derogatory manner about an individual at the club and I wouldn't. It's just not okay. Like I know that my ability to be a referee and also to be seen as a good personal ambassador of my own brand means I can't talk like that and he should know that. Every referee should know that. I don't think you'll ever see him ref again.
Speaker 2:I would agree with that statement. So before we get out of here, I want to circle this back to just you as an official and your mentorship and kind of everything you do to help people get into the field of officiating. But what's the biggest piece of advice you would give somebody who's trying to make it, who's trying to become an official?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just tell them to dive in with two feet. It's just everything else that's out there. The first time you rode a bike or the first time you kissed a girl or a boy, whatever, whatever your thing is. It's not going to be great, it's going to be a learning experience and it's very easy All these people who spectate or coach or played whatnot they think it's so easy to be. And then you get out there and you're the one with the whistle and all of a sudden, everything looked completely like what do I do? Where do I go? Is that a foul? Is it not a foul? What should I say? I don't know. It just takes time, it takes repetitions, and I really do encourage people If you love the game, consider giving back to the game as a referee.
Speaker 1:It will change how you see the game. You will appreciate the game at a much deeper level. You'll be able to be a better fan and understanding why some calls are made and why some calls aren't made. And, honestly, I posted a video today. One of the things I love about being a referee is sometimes I get to see the most exciting play. I get to see a great goal, a great save, like a last minute banger to win the game and it's like the coolest thing. And I'm telling you, man, it's the next best thing to being able to be out there on the pitch and playing yourself is being that referee, out there with a perfect view of some of the most exciting stuff, and hearing that, the cheers or the cries, whatever it is.
Speaker 1:But I feel like every time I ref I win because I'm getting back what I put into it, my effort. I get to participate in the beautiful game, I get to have fun, I get to have exercise. By the way, I also earn probably about five or $6,000 a year just in referee fees. Okay, that's a new car payment, I mean. It's not like I'm reffing every single day that I can. So I'm earning extra money, I'm having fun, I'm involved in the game, I'm giving back to the game I love, I'm participating in my community, I'm getting great exercise, I'm outside. It's a wonderful thing. So I just encourage people if you're referee curious, just go do it, go have fun, go find some, get certified, start with your U6 and U8 little munchkins out there and start doing that for a while and then you'll do your U12 rec and as an assistant referee and then eventually you'll move your way on up. But I'm telling you, it's a wonderful way to spend a day.
Speaker 2:You have convinced me to, at some point in my life, try to be an official.
Speaker 1:May the laws be with you.
Speaker 2:May the laws be with you, my friend. I love that shirt.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. I just launched it. I just came around, I got all 84 on the back of my shirt as well, yes, my new design.
Speaker 2:Like I said before, I have some experience as a baseball umpire, but I don't love baseball the same way I love footy.
Speaker 1:I can't watch a baseball game.
Speaker 2:I can go to one and I can watch big ones on TV in the playoffs.
Speaker 3:I'm just there to drink honestly.
Speaker 1:Playoff baseball is different, I agree with you on that, yeah, no, but I will clear to drink. Honestly, damn Playoff baseball is different, I agree with you on that. Yeah, no, but I will go to a soccer match anytime. I've been in Portugal to games, to England to be games England, netherlands. I've been to games, obviously, here in the US, yeah, canada. I just, I love going around the world and seeing the beautiful game played. It really is the true international language of love, carl was literally at Benfica Porto last week. It's killer dude.
Speaker 3:It's so cool, that's so wonderful, it's such a different experience, my God, yeah, no, I love it.
Speaker 2:David, I just want to give you a huge thanks again for coming on Really thank you. You are. You're, in the best way possible, the exact kind of person bubbly personality I was expecting from your content that I've been watching and I just want to say keep it up, because your niche is just something that is needed in the community.
Speaker 2:We all bicker back and forth on the internet about decisions and then I see a refs need love to video and I'm like, okay, this is the side that I should have been on and I just want to say thank you for doing what you're doing and, yeah, thanks for coming on thank you for being a good ref, like my god I think you're a rare breed.
Speaker 1:The funny thing is, man, not every team thinks I'm a good ref. Generally you lose. Listen, I'll be honest. Most games you know every team thinks I'm a good ref. Generally you lose. Listen, I'll be honest, most games you know, both sides think I'm a good ref. Certainly the coaches as well, because they're used to having crappy refs. If you lose 3-0 or something like that, you may still think I'm a crappy ref because your perspective is a bit jaded. But I'm a big believer in be the change you wish to create, a big believer in be the change you wish to create.
Speaker 1:Again as a former rugby player and understanding that you can have a dynamic that healthy between the officials and the players. It's it's, it can be. It doesn't have to be full of venom and animosity and hatred and frustration. You can have a good relationship. Now, some of that, of course, is on the players, coaches and the spectators, but there's also stuff that we can do as referees to try and create that good environment as well. It begins with us and we can be a positive influence on the game too. So I really, through the Ref's Need Love 2 channel which, by the way, you can follow instagram and tiktok and on my website, my podcast and you know all that good stuff.
Speaker 1:And people get merch as well, such as the may the laws be with you t-shirt you're seeing right here, or the have you been naughty christmas sweater on sale now. Yeah, I know it's a lot of fun, but you know three. You know the channel. I really am trying to, you know, build a bridge between referees who are normally silent and can't speak. Listen, I'm never going to be a professional. I started too late and I'm really freaking slow. I could have ever been a professional like those people on TV. But I'm trying to use the channel to build that bridge, build some a dialogue. It'd be a resource. I get 40, 50 messages every single day with people asking me questions about the laws of the game and try and just help people understand why we do what we do and be an advocate and try and encourage people to be a referee Again, a wonderful way to give back to the game we love. Thank you.
Speaker 3:David.
Speaker 2:This was fantastic. Thank you for coming on. We'll catch everybody else next week on another episode of the high kicks podcast I hope you guys enjoyed that.
Speaker 1:I had so much fun chatting with the guys on the high kicks podcast. If you're interested in like just hearing chat about the premier league, it's a good one to check out. Guys again, please take some time. Treat yourself this year. Support the rest, need love to channel. Hook yourself up with the have you been naughty Christmas sweatshirt or, again you know, some other gear. I got tons of wonderful stuff on the shop to show your support. Everything gets poured back to this channel to make it happen. Guys, please have a safe and happy holiday season. I know I've still got state cup and high school is right around the corner. Be safe, be happy, tell your loved ones you love them and take care of yourself. I hope your next match is red card free.
Speaker 3:We'll see you next time.