REFS NEED LOVE TOO
An honest perspective from the 3rd team on the pitch... the referees. Through humor, analysis and education, we are slowly changing how people view referees and officials in all sports. We care and have a love for the game as much as any player or coach. Sometimes even more. Youth soccer (proper football) is a multi-billion $ industry in the US. Tremendous money is spent on players, competitions, travel etc., but almost nothing spent on developing the next generation of referees. I hope that this Podcast inspires, educates and humanizes the next generation of referees for their own development and appreciation from the players, coaches and spectators they need to work alongside.
REFS NEED LOVE TOO
Elite International Rugby Player to Esteemed Professional Referee: An interview with Aimee Barrett-Theron
Ever wondered what it's like to transition from the adrenaline rush of being an elite player to the disciplined world of professional refereeing? Join me as I talk to the trailblazing Amy Barrett - Theron, South Africa's pioneering international rugby referee. Together, we explore her groundbreaking journey as the first South African woman to officiate in esteemed competitions like Super Rugby and the Olympics. Our conversation celebrates the cultural heartbeat of rugby in South Africa, ignited by the iconic 1995 World Cup, and the sport's unique ability to bring together players of all shapes, sizes and backgrounds.
We shed light on the often-overlooked path from player to referee, tackling the fears and misconceptions that deter many professional players from picking up the whistle. Drawing from personal experiences, we discuss the enriching opportunities refereeing offers to stay connected with the game without succumbing to the spotlight pressures. Amy's insights highlight how former players bring a valuable perspective to officiating and the personal growth it requires to shift from a team to a more individualistic role. Our discussion celebrates the camaraderie within the rugby refereeing community and how mutual respect and dialogue between referees and players create a harmonious field environment.
Discover the art of communication and decision-making in rugby, where mutual respect between players and referees sets it apart from other sports like soccer. Amy shares her strategies for maintaining focus under high pressure, handling dissent with grace, and embracing the role of facilitating a fair game. Gain practical advice on simplifying rugby refereeing, focusing on key rules, and learning from mistakes to ensure the game remains enjoyable for all. Whether you're a seasoned referee or curious about the dynamics of rugby officiating, this episode promises valuable insights and a heartfelt appreciation for the unique world of rugby refereeing.
A very special podcast for you. Today, guys. We are going to be talking about my first love. And no, we're not talking about Abby Lichtenstein from Staten Island. We are talking about rugby. That's right. Before I fell in love with soccer or football, I was a rugby player. That's right. I played all four years of university and then, towards the end of my university career, I decided to get certified as a rugby referee. This is going to be a very special conversation, but before we do that, I want to give a big shout out to our sponsor who makes this podcast possible Refersports.
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Speaker 1:And welcome to the Refs Need Love 2 podcast, the show that gives you a real, raw and behind the scenes view of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch the referee. I'm your host, david Gerson, a grassroots referee and certified mentor with 10 years of experience and over 1300 matches under my belt. You can find me at refsneedlove2.com, on Instagram, tiktok and YouTube. A friendly reminder during this season of Thanksgiving and joy remember to treat yourself to some referee goodies. Maybe it's a new whistle, some new scorecards or some killer swag like the refs or the May the Laws Be With you t-shirt. If you don't want to buy one yourself, send it a link to your family and tell them to hook you up.
Speaker 1:Today we have a very special guest, amy Barrett Turan, a professional and international rugby referee. She was born in Cape Town in South Africa, schooled at the Northlands Girls High School in Durban, and Barrett Turan represented South Africa as a player in three Touch World Cups, as well as a Sevens World Cup and a 15s World Cup and if you don't know what that means, 15s is like the full 15 players on either side World Cup the big rugby World Cup In 2014,. Though, she decided to take up a career as a referee after her playing days. Being very familiar with male referee struggles, baratun was under no illusion of the challenges she's going to face as a female referee. She became the first South African woman to referee Super Rugby, src Curry Cup and the United Rugby Championship. She also refereed at the 2016 Olympics in Brazil, the Commonwealth Games and at the Women's World Cup. Welcome to the podcast, amy.
Speaker 2:Amazing. Thank you, sir. That's why I love to be here.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I am. I'm so excited. So many of you guys don't know. Listening to this podcast, you think I'm like all obsessed with footy and soccer for my entire life. Let me tell you, I played it as a kid. But my first love I played everything growing up my first love was rugby. When I stepped, when I got to university, my first week of school I saw a banner hanging out there hey, come join the rugby team. I was like all right, what am I going to do? I swear I fell in love. It was like the most amazing thing. I became a team captain. I was president of the team. I was all in my last semester. I got injured in the fall and so in the spring I decided to get certified as a rugby referee, and so that's how I began my refereeing journey was actually as a rugby referee, and the culture is so different between the two. So, amy, I'd love to ask you what attracted you to rugby? How did you get into the sport?
Speaker 2:I think, being South African, it's really part of the culture and I think the 95 World Cup is something that's obviously given my age away a little bit, but I might have been young, but it was just an incredible time in our country when that happened and I thought this is the sport for me. I am absolutely obsessed with the game. Obviously, things around me in that time it wasn't really suited for the women, but I just love everything about the game. It's so dynamic, so physical. There's so much that can happen. Yeah, what an incredible game.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's actually very funny. So I was a really skinny little dude. A lot of people would look at me and wouldn't think I was a rugby player. You can have people of all shapes and sizes on the pitch. There are some people who are really small, maybe stocky, some people are tall and skinny, some very big, thick people, but there's really a place for everyone in rugby, which is interesting. But I will tell you and I'm Amy, I'm kind of this is your mindset too you know the reality that's out there. I actually found it to be really cathartic. There was something about, yes, certainly the contact and hitting someone, but also being hit as well and then helping you up off the pitch.
Speaker 1:It was something like you were in battle, but it was like this. I also felt a lot of joy at the same time. I'm not sure if you felt that or what you enjoyed about actually playing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I played a lot of sports like you growing up, and rugby definitely pushes you into the next limits as far as putting your body on the line for yourself, for your team and things like that. But a lot of people, if you make the comparison between rugby and NFL, they're like it's these massive clashes. You don't have any protective equipment. It's just brutal. Now there's specific techniques to tackle each other. We train to do what we're supposed to do and you do it well.
Speaker 2:I remember taking my first tackle or being tackled. It was a tournament, a club tournament. When I just started I was like, oh, no, I'm going to die, and I actually got hit, placed the ball, we carried on going, got up, carried on playing and I thought was it? Yeah, once you experience it, yeah, it's actually an amazing part of the game and I hope that people and I have a daughter as well and initially people were like, oh, is she going to play rugby? You must be careful with her. No, if she wants to play rugby, you can play rugby. It's a safe sport if you do it right and you coach well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's so interesting I have to tell you. You know it shaped me a lot as a human right and I have to. It's like now in business. There's nothing you could possibly do to me. I've already been through a lot. I've already had these massive 220 pound, like six foot four, like giants crush me. I was going to graduated high school at five nine, 127 pounds. I put on a lot of weight in university. I finished at about 160, but I was a fly half and honestly I think my best quality was that I was able to draw players in and offload the ball and get hit. That was my thing. I was really good at that and I was able to set other players free. But honestly, after that, like I'm going to get intimidated because someone's not being very nice in the office, come on.
Speaker 2:Exactly you made makes you a strong person on and off the field, and I probably found that with reffing as well. You have to be a leader on the field and, yeah, I can definitely thank rugby for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's for sure. So this is interesting and this has been talked a lot in the footy world. So you were an elite rugby player for your country. You played for your country in South Africa, where rugby is like everything. You think rugby, you think about New Zealand, you think Australia, you think South Africa, obviously the six nations as well, with England and Ireland, Scotland but you played for South Africa. The box, like this, is massive. So you do that. And then you decided to be a referee because, like in football they've talked about that that would be nice if more elite players became referees, thinking that somehow that's going to dramatically improve the decision making of the referee, which I could appreciate. But how did you make that jump? You're an elite player. And then you're like I think I might want to be a ref. What attracted you to make that jump?
Speaker 2:I think I always enjoyed the challenge of the rugby laws. If I were to compare it to any other sport and that's no disrespect to any other sport but you take field hockey if the ball hits your foot, the ball hits your foot and the umpire whistles. But in rugby it's there's so much happening all the time, so many different phases, so many different challenges, and I always, as a player, wanted to understand as much as I could so that I could almost take advantage of the laws. Yeah, so I think, playing the game over many years, a lot of people have said to me have you ever thought about reffing? And I was like, maybe, like it wasn't really, especially as a woman's player, like it wasn't, there wasn't really a scope for it, there wasn't much happening in that world, especially when I started reffing. But the more I thought about it, the more I was like that actually sounds really cool and I don't have to tackle anyone, so that's even better.
Speaker 2:And yeah, when I initially started, it was just a way to give back to the game, because I was fortunate enough to get a rugby bursary, I was fortunate enough to travel the world and wear the green and gold and I just thought this is amazing, like I can't see my life without rugby. So this is a way to stay involved. And then, as soon as I started doing it, I was like I want to go to the top, I want to ref, I want to ref everything I can, I want to ref all the different levels, all the different tournaments. Yeah it just it hooked me from the first, the first fitness test, so which wasn't my most fun moment, but I remember just thinking this is a challenge. I'm going to take it on and see how far I go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm curious, just for a little background on you, so as a player, what position were you when you played 15s?
Speaker 2:So I played fly half fullback.
Speaker 1:I fell a fly half. I love it.
Speaker 2:And I think you know you touched on that being a league player like being referees. I think it's as a referee that's been there before I'm comfortable in the chaos and you have a lot more player empathy. You make a lot more. I feel you make a lot more relevant decisions as opposed to the technical ones where people maybe haven't played. So I think it's a brilliant pathway. It's just about changing the mindset the negative mindset of refereeing, because we're so used to abusing the referee that we think, no, there's no way I'm signing up for that, like everyone's going to hate me. But yeah, I say, one of my goals as a referee is to bring the human side to it, get people to know me as Amy, so that people are a bit more positive about it, and it's actually you get the best seat in the house. That's often said about rafting, so that's what I love about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think it's. You say, best seat in the house. I so agree. It's right next to being able to play the game. And again, for many of us, I can't anymore. I did hit that Rugby. I played for a couple of years. After university I was showing up to work with a big black eye. Again, my specialty was being able to take a hit.
Speaker 1:So it's not really a great strategy for professional life. But I'm just, why aren't more professionals and elite players in that jump like you did? What's holding them back? You mentioned they're afraid, oh, people aren't going to like me because I'm the ref. Rugby's got a little bit of a different culture around being a referee, a little more respect. So what's holding people back from making that jump, you think?
Speaker 2:I think that's a really good question. It's probably something that's been posed to a lot of unions around the world, because we've had a couple so myself and egan seconds we came through the player to ref pathway. We've got it one or two uh youngsters coming through, so both on the women's side and the men's side and and they're just so much more advanced. And then the refs who've picked up the whistle because they want to rest, they want to be involved in that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I said, the negative perception around referees, which we hopefully going to need to change, and I think also rugby, yeah, it does take a lot. It does take a lot of time. It does Some people just want a complete breakaway and go, and I'm like a rugby purist, like I want to do it forever. If I can ref as long as I keep Boston, the, the bronco, I will keep riffing for as long as I can and, yeah, I certainly can't stay away and I hope other players do pick up the whistle, because it's just a really fun challenge of being on the field and you can give the game so much more because you understand so much more.
Speaker 2:I think and also notice picture any people that haven't played it's. It's just a different pathway of getting into it.
Speaker 1:I will tell you, even on the, the football, you can tell a referee who hasn't played. They made some of the most curious calls. You're like, really Like you're calling it that way, Sure. So what would be some of the challenges that you faced on your referee journey? You went from again starting a first match I think I read in your bio it was like a U13 match that you refereed and now you're refereeing on the global stage, televised around the world. But what are some of the biggest challenges that you had to overcome on this pathway you've been on for the last decade?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think firstly it was the personal challenge of it being in the team environment. You're surrounded by 20, 30 players all the time. You travel together, you train together, you play together. Refereeing is a little bit more individual and so that was the first thing that I had to get my head around. And yeah, some people might say it's lonely. I love the independence of it, but at the same time you actually connect really closely to your referee colleagues. We have a really tight group in Cape Town. So the SA Rugby refs, the ref in Cape Town, we train together early mornings, we check in with each other how did this game go? This looked tough, like how can I help you? And likewise, on the world rugby stage, like we are, we see ourselves as a third team. It's really great to engage and and say meet new people. And I know when I travel to Scotland, england, new Zealand, like I can call up some of the refs and be like hey, let's go for coffee, let's go for lunch, and it's actually like a really tight group.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's fantastic. I think I don't know what it is about the culture of being a referee, but I know everywhere I go, every pitch I step onto, and I'm sure it's the same in rugby even if you've never met them before, you're immediately fast friends, let's go and like immediately you have each other's back, you're part of I don't want to say club, because club almost sounds like something that's like exclusionary or other people can't come in. But it's just, you've been through similar experience, you've had similar life experiences and you have a similar mindset. That attracts you to, as a purist, you say, for the love of the game and wanting to get back to the game in this way. I think that's so cool.
Speaker 1:Can we talk a little bit about the culture of the rugby referee for a moment, because I think this is really important.
Speaker 1:So for my listeners, who are mostly soccer officials here in the United States, so again, soccer is now football, if we will, is now, I think, the fourth most popular sport in the United States and it's the number one sport in the 18 to 34 demographic.
Speaker 1:So the next generation coming up is crazy about footy and we've got World Cup coming and that's going to do all sorts of things in this country in the next couple of years, but rugby is still down in the list of watched and played sports here in this country, down in the list of watched and played sports here in this country. So I don't know how many of my listeners know about the dynamic of the rugby referee and rugby players and how that's different from soccer referees and soccer players. Can you describe a little bit about that? Like, how can you possibly describe what the relationship is like on the pitch, how you guys communicate the respect shown to rugby referees? I'm not even sure how to frame up the question. I know it's so different, but how would you describe it? Knowing what happens in football versus what happens in rugby, how would you describe the differences between the two?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's always interesting I have so much respect for soccer referees firstly, but I can just start it with that, because I just think you deal with so much more than what we deal with. Yeah, of course we do have tough moments and certain players that challenge us and things like that, but I think soccer is unfortunately just not in a really good space when it comes to, say, respect of the referee, and I think we're very lucky. I think that's like you said, it is a culture, it the way rugby players, rugby referees, go about their business. Don't get me wrong, in certain levels of the game it can still definitely get messy, but I think if you look into the more professional side, there is a clear respect and I think it helps to be.
Speaker 2:There is that human connection. There's more communication to the players. Obviously, you can hear it on the tv. So I could be wrong as far as the the soccer referee speaking to to players, but we generally have constant dialogue and we explain our decisions. We, if there's moments in downtime, we'll go over and hey, captain, your team's pushing it a little bit on space. Can I just ask for half a step at the rock? Yeah, okay, sure thing and um. So we're probably a bit more engaging and a bit more human with them, and I think that definitely helps I think, you're always going to have your challenging characters, but yeah, it's just our challenges to how to navigate those personalities.
Speaker 2:Do you go hard, do you go soft? Do you meet them somewhere in the middle?
Speaker 1:yeah, I enjoy that part of the game yeah, it's fascinating, I think the one thing as living here in this country and I don't know if it's the same all around the world, but we often see, or I see, in social media these clips of rugby referees who are having dialogue with these mountainous on the pitch. Like this guy, I I've been to a international rugby match for our usa eagles here. They were playing the country of georgia, which I know you were just in georgia the country. Yeah, I've been to an international rugby match for our USA Eagles here they were playing the country of Georgia, which I know you were just in Georgia the country. But these are massive people playing this very physical game.
Speaker 1:And then you've got a rugby referee I know you've got a very famous clip out there, amy where you bring the two captains over and you're like I'm not angry with you, I'm just disappointed, can you start talking? And you start talking to everyone. What's going on? But it's like amazing how, instead of this highly charged thing we see in football or soccer, if you will, where people are yelling at the referee and the referee is backing up because they're being intimidated, the rugby referee is able to bring these people together and have a very calm conversation about. Here's what we're seeing here. This is the decision I'm going to make. We're going with a penalty and it's a yellow card, whatever. And then the players like, okay, it's 15 to be cruel.
Speaker 1:How does that happen, amy? Like where is it? Is it coming from? Again, like the main, like rugby organizations internationally, is it? Is it coming from again, like the main rugby organizations internationally? Is it the clubs? Is it the players who are deciding hey, we're not going to be like intimidating to this ref, we're going to respect the ref, whoever it is. Like where is it driven from, amy? How does that happen? How can we make this happen?
Speaker 2:It's a brilliant question and I don't know if I have the answer, but that's what makes Roy be special for me. I love that part of it and I think the biggest side is just changing the mindset, changing the perception of the players. I don't know from the soccer side how much engagement players have with referees, but we do have that general social environment. We do engage with players. Even tomorrow I'm going down to the Stormers training just to run with the boys and and ref a couple of scrums and malls and things like that. We do have that. Yeah, so that mutual respect for each other, yeah, I wish we could have that across all the sports. But I'll be honest, if I'm watching another sport, I also I'm human Like sometimes you disagree with the ref and use it and then, but I will never say anything because I just have so much respect for that person.
Speaker 2:Unless you've been in their shoes, you actually have no idea yeah, and I mean this is something I learned early on, like when I crossed from playing to reffing and I started to oh my gosh, there's actually two sides to this game, because as a player, you think you see everything, but you actually only see the one side. And it just opened my eyes to wow, this is actually so difficult you're making split-staking decisions of at my level now we're doing it on tv and for us thousands of people it's hard. So, yeah, I wish there was a lot more mutual respect across all the sporting goods yeah, talk about that one sec.
Speaker 1:You talked about being on tv. So one thing that's amazing about rugby in particular and I know at the level, I'm not sure if at the professional levels and in the leagues but the rugby referee, especially in these international matches, whether it's Olympics or World Cup or Six Nations the rugby referee is mic'd up. You actually are wearing a microphone and the people watching at home can hear every single word that you say and the players, if they're talking to you, hear every word. Can you talk about that? Do you like that or does it make you self-conscious? How do you think that changes the game or changes the way you act or the players act because you're wearing a microphone? How does that affect you?
Speaker 2:yeah. So I think it gives us a platform to educate, to explain a decision. Sometimes, unfortunately, like, the spectators see the on going the way against their team and they're like, oh no, what was that for? And then, if you just had that moment to explain it, people are like, oh yeah, that's fair. So I think for us, we just one step ahead and being able to communicate that it just keeps everyone on the same page and it helps us to. We can take them along the journey. I think when I first started, it was something I had to get used to, because they hear everything from the heavy breathing after a sprint chase to every downtime comment and things like that. So you do learn to be professional but at the same time authentic with it, and it's I find it so helpful and I wish more sports, did it?
Speaker 1:oh my gosh, absolutely. We've got in our sport, so we have. So there's var in rugby video assistant review and there's video assistant review in in soccer. But, my gosh, the anger and frustration in soccer versus in rugby. It feels like rugby's got it all right and I'm just going to describe to the listeners out there who've not watched an international rugby match.
Speaker 1:But when there is a decision that you want to review, or one of your fellow referees or the video assistant wants you to review, you actually bring the video up onto the screen in the stadium, not some random place hundreds of miles away. You literally bring it up onto the stadium and you talk through your considerations and the decision in front of everyone. Damn, that is crazy, oh my gosh, it's unbelievable. Like in that situation can you describe that? What are you trying to do? Like, when you see the video up on the screen? Are you trying to help everyone understand, like, how you're coming to a decision and what the considerations are, what's your goal, and do you feel a lot of pressure in the moment when you're watching it up on the screen?
Speaker 2:I think initially like I'd be lying if I didn't say it wasn't a bit awkward, like when you first get to a screen and then the camera stays on your face you're like, no, we can start the replays now. That's the small awkward moment. But once it's going, it's a way for us to explain the process. It's a way for us because we don't just flip a coin and go yellow card. There's a clear process we follow. So it's quite nice for us as well, because sometimes you look at a clip and you're like, oh, that's a red card. And then you watch it on the screen, you work through the steps and you can either make it work to a red card or you can follow the facts and say, okay, no, my initial live view, I thought that was really bad. But actually, listen, the ball carrier dipped at the last second. I have a lot of sympathy for the tackler. They didn't have any time to adjust. Therefore, I'm going to take it from red to yellow. Therefore, I'm going to take it from red to yellow and I think, yeah, once you can take people on that journey, you can also explain it to your team as well, because I don't think people realize rugby is a very special game as far as the collisions. Like you don't get this high tackle yesterday, it's not going to be the same as this high tackle today. Even as referees, we all sit in a room and we try to calibrate. We're watching clips of the say.
Speaker 2:At the moment, the autumn test, autumn is the ashram, and there's quite a big debate across the group. Just as far as I think yellow, I think red, because this is this and we're following the same process, but there's still that human side, there's still that subjective side. So I think the world is calling for accuracy. But it's in rugby. There's a lot of grit and it's quite hard to achieve, but at least we can sell the process, take people on the journey and, at the end of the day, people might not like the outcome, but they can follow the outcome. And that's what we want to do Make those understandable decisions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's so many things to unpack there. Just a couple of things for my soccer brethren out there. Like rugby, if I'm not mistaken mistaken like in your considerations you almost have a decision tree that you go through. Okay, if it's high, is it this? If it's this, okay, then it's a red card and that helps guide the process. But what you do that's so different from soccer. So soccer this year, the global football world, they have now instituted that when the referee goes to video assistant review, they go to a screen and only they see what's on that screen. No one in the stadium sees what's on the screen. So the stadium knows what's going on. And then they come out and they'll say the original decision was a yellow card for reckless challenge after video review. Now it's a red card for serious foul play. But they don't go through and say what I saw was a high degree of force with a lunging tackle and studs exposed and contact high above the ankle and blah, blah, blah. And that's what you're doing in rugby. Is you're actually given the context, you're actually giving the considerations that you've gone through to reach your decision and that's why people appreciate at least that you've gone through that thought process. That's what you were thinking and they understand it, and I think that leads to a feeling of respect as opposed to hatred and mistrust.
Speaker 1:I love it so, like kudos to rugby. Thank you, rugby, for doing it All right. So I know I love it. It's fantastic. I'm sitting here. I'm like dying over here. I was like why can't we do this? Okay, like dying over here, I was like why can't we do this? Okay. So I do have a question for you. You know about, like rugby and soccer, anything at the highest competitive level are really really intense environments really intense. The collisions that are happening specifically in rugby and that just, oh gosh, it's scrums, it's coming together. It just it's a very fast, very intense. And obviously football's soccer is very fast and very intense, the highest level, very physical too. Like what do you do to try and maintain your own self-control and manage your own emotions during a match, because everything's you talk about chaos, the crowd, like everything is going on. It's intense. How do you stay calm and centered and focused on doing your job at the elite level?
Speaker 2:I think I'm pretty lucky. Like personality-wise, I am generally relatively calm, so I think that that definitely helps me on the field as well. There's definitely like butterflies before a game big crowds, lots of noise, like we are human beings. We can hear it, we can see it. But I think if I make it personal to me, the way I can stay there and be calm is I bash myself 100 and that's the. So, the training, the prep that I've put in the week. I know I can walk out there calm and confident because I've done what I needed to do and I know what I'm doing on the field, that there's nothing, that I'm perfect referee.
Speaker 2:But I think if, as soon as you back yourself in a high performance environment, you don't have this, oh no, what happens if I make a mistake? Oh no, everyone's watching me. Oh no, that's just out of your mind and you can just enjoy the moment. And I think that's one thing I learned quite early on is to back myself and it's it's not a perfect process and there's still so big games, big moments where you know there's mental effort, there's physical prep, that goes into that. I can be in that mindset, yeah, but and it sounds cheesy, but like the enjoying it side of it.
Speaker 2:I honestly I run out onto a rugby shirt. I'm like I am living my like. I just love rugby. I love watching the players play rugby, tackle, score, tries, kicks, like all of that. I love everything about the game. So when I run out there, I'm not running out there for money, I'm not running out there or I have to do this.
Speaker 2:I think you, if you really love what you're doing and if you love refereeing, you love rugby, that that keeps you in a really happy, positive mindset, because I think players, they, they think we get mad at them and there's probably moments where I'm like I've just told you that you've given away too many infringements in the 22. We're not so, we're not robots, but it's yeah, it's just taking a step back being. I am the person to facilitate here. I am. I need to serve the game the best way I can. Yeah, you don't make it personal, you just ref watch and yeah, it's a it's a constant word, but I think people must know it's not easy, but the more you can do it, the the better your decisions, the better you are at the end of the day oh I, I love everything about that, my gosh.
Speaker 1:You know I, I know I'm madly in love with soccer and that's what drives me, without a doubt and also to give back to the game. I feel like I'm providing a service out there to the referees, that they're getting all of me, the best of me, and I want to see a beautiful game of soccer played, and that definitely is part of what drives me, without a doubt. I'm literally tearing. I have tears in my eyes. I'm so moved. She's cool, but seriously, I'm like such a huge fan. I do do have a question for you. This is really important.
Speaker 1:So we as a soccer community deal with a lot of dissent on the pitch, and I'm not necessarily saying me in particular, but we know it's a serious issue. Referee abuse, whether it's physical or verbal, is a thing I get people who message me all the time about it. What are some of the? What advice do you have for other officials out there, whether they're rugby, whether it's field hockey, basketball, football, soccer, whatever. When you've getting players coming at you with dissent or arguing a decision or giving you attitude, what strategies do you have for getting them back centered on being a player and also just addressing and simply somehow having to give out discipline for dissent. Do you have any strategies or communication approaches you'd recommend?
Speaker 2:I think over the years, I probably developed a couple of tools for the toolbox when it comes to this, and it's all about matching the right tool for the right situation. I think when you first start refereeing, you tend to be a bit more like a policeman, a policewoman I'm going to show you that I know the laws, I need to prove myself and quite defensive and you take things personally. But the more you grow into the role, the more you say you back yourself, the more experience you gain along the way. You tend to pull that back a little bit and, yeah, at the end of the day, like it's about the players Like no one came to watch you, which which sounds terrible, which like people came to watch this rugby match between two teams. You might have a couple of friends in the stands, you might have family in the stands, but in general, the players are the rock stars. So let's not make it about yourself, and I think as soon as we do that we, there's a lot less that comes at you, because players can get on and do their own thing, and it's the analogy of if you're riffing, no one even knows that you were there. Yeah, and I think if we go into that mindset. You, you can't compose. It doesn't matter what comes at you. Yeah, you just have to. You just have to get in and do a job and not take a personal.
Speaker 2:One of the things I learned quite early on was what other people think of me as none of my business, really. So people are fine if you want to shout at me, players want to have a go at me like it's none of my business. And I think you, you start to when it comes to dealing with players, you start to realize sometimes certain teams, they have their death by a thousand cut strategies where they just keep breaking the law. They just keep going until you actually they put the ball in your court and that's cool. A quick marching them 10, but like really with the poker face is probably the best, because as soon as you show players that you're upset, they're gonna. They're gonna rise to that emotional challenge.
Speaker 2:But as soon as you just know this is my decision and I tend to keep it at my level. So if players want to talk to me, they'll, you know, come rushing in from the top, like the, and if I just stay calm, they will generally come down to my level. But of course, if they don't, then that's what the whistle and the cards are for. So, and if I just stay calm, they will generally come down to my level. But of course, if they don't, then that's what the whistle and the cards are for. So, yeah, it's a balancing act every time and you always get different faces. So we are working on it, but I'm quite like in the, especially in the woman's face, like we, we know a lot of the bears as well, and I'm like not today, or we can have a bit of a smile or a conversation on the side, but not today, or we can have a bit of a smile or a conversation on the side. I'm doing my best, you're doing your best, it's just get on with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. There were a couple of things that you said in there. I just need to do a little bit of a rugby translation for my listeners out there. Early in the in the podcast, we talked about rucks and scrums. Okay, those are two things that happened during a rugby match. It's a restart with a scrum, scrum down. You see the two teams come together. A ruck is when the ball's on the ground, they're using their feet to pull it back, and then you said marching them 10 in very similar, when you award a penalty in rugby, the other team has to get back 10. That's I just want to make sure I translate for my people out there, but I do think it's such valuable advice that you give.
Speaker 1:I know when I was a very junior referee in soccer, if someone would a coach would yell at me, or a player, or even a spectator or parent. I have a couple instances in my life where you know I didn't I almost matched their anger and intensity back and yelled back and I'm not proud of it. I really regret that now. Back and yelled back and I'm not proud of it. I really regret that now, but I tell you I feel like now, when someone comes at me with a lot of energy, I'm like you. I'm like, hey, let's have a conversation. Help me understand why, you're upset.
Speaker 1:And I tell you it's very disarming when you say, oh, I'm sorry, you're so upset, I'm sorry, I miss that. Like I had that matches this weekend. Someone's like he hit me in the back. I was like I'm sorry, I didn't see it, I'll look for it. Definitely I'm so sorry, but I just you know I'm contrite, I'm open to a mistake. Someone said, oh, you missed that. He ran into that guy. I was like, yeah, I missed it, I'm sorry, he it, I would have called it.
Speaker 1:I'm so sorry, but I tell you a little bit of that and just like, cool and calm is so important. I think the other thing you said too is that when they don't match you, is that you're also willing to use your cards and blow the whistle. Can you talk a little bit, just real briefly. So in rugby, when someone is guilty of dissent OK, so you've asked them to calm down they're still yelling and again, if I'm not mistaken, it's still only the captains are allowed to talk to the referee in rugby. Technically, if someone else is yelling at you, that you also have a. When you give a yellow card for dissent, is it automatically a sin bin in rugby?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yellow card is 10 minutes off the field. Yeah, take the risk. Yeah, yeah, take the risk. Yeah, do stupid things, win stupid prizes. Is there something I was heard along the way? But yeah, it's certainly not a tool we want to be dishing out like sweets, but if the game needs it, the game needs it and it's, yeah, just adds to the battle on the field. So, yeah, I think, just touching on what your point is there, I think players these days, they're smart, they're clever. So as soon as you say your example or he hit me in the back, if you turn around and say no, he didn't, he's just going to get more upset, he's going to get confused or a long discussion. Sometimes it is just easier to say I hear you, but I didn't see you that way or I missed it completely. But I will look after it.
Speaker 2:And it just yeah, it keeps them on your side.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it just shows empathy, it just says hey, like I totally appreciate that. That upset you. I'm so sorry I didn't see it, but if I do see it again I will, I'll look for it. So I just have one last question for you before we wrap things up. What advice would you give to new referees? Gain confidence in their role on the pitch? And this is something I get all the time. I'm a new referee. I'm scared, I'm nervous. It's going to be my first time in the center with this match, or my first time in the center with this level. I've never done it before. I'm nervous, I'm scared. Can you give me any advice? And what advice would you give to a referee starting out or a referee stepping up to the next level?
Speaker 2:I think the first side is to simplify it. I think people when they first start out they're like oh my gosh, there's so many laws and what happens if I miss this? And there's 10 different things at every breakdown and there's 40 things. That's driving the line. Just simplify it. There's some games I've walked onto, say Curry Cup, urc, even Women's Internationals, where I've just said get the teclonaut rolling. That's my first priority. Get the tackler not rolling.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, say that one more time. Get what?
Speaker 2:The tackler not rolling away.
Speaker 1:Okay, the tackler not rolling away. Okay, so in rugby guys, when you tackle someone, you can't stay on top of them to prevent the ball from coming out. Essentially, you've got to move away from the tackle and get up off your feet. So that's what she said. Sorry, I just need to translate for my peeps. It's an accent and a laws thing if people don't understand rugby. So I'm with you. Okay, very good. By the way. By the way, I do. Actually it's not on my back anymore, but I actually got caught on the wrong side of a ruck in a match and I had someone come down about six or seven times with their studs across my back.
Speaker 1:I had these massive it looked like a bear attacked me and I lifted up my shirt at halftime because I was like in real pain and like I was screaming. And I lifted up my shirt and the entire sideline simultaneously goes it was not good. So you do not want to get caught on the wrong side of a rock, but generally you're supposed to move away. So, yes, get the tackle not rolling. Got it? Okay, Go ahead. So focusing on one thing there, Okay, continue. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:So it's essentially just simplifying the processes. Every time I get to a phase, instead of thinking about 45 different laws, I think about one, two, three. If I get to a line, I throw a jump block and that's for different infringements. But I have my priorities, my simple checklist. I'm not going out there to referee every single law in the game, because then it would be as long as an NFL game. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Rugby is actually. Sometimes you make your best decisions by keeping your whistle in your pocket, yeah, and I think that can maybe help new referees to relax a little bit. Sometimes, guys, the best thing to do is put your whistle in your pocket and let the players play. They're playing as much rugby as they can, they're tired, they're kicking, they're making tackles, they're running the first year. The attention stays on them and it's not always drawn back to you, but they start to feel like, oh my gosh, we're doing this rugby thing and it's amazing. So if you leave a few decisions out there, it's actually okay. It's actually am.
Speaker 2:So I think to take the pressure off new referees or referees that want to go up to the next level doesn't mean you have to ref more laws more accurately.
Speaker 2:It's actually about choosing the ones that matter, and that's the challenge. Yeah, there's so much advice because obviously, like it's been a relatively long career and I was like, yeah, I wish more people told me that, but definitely the mistake side scares a lot of people away. But one of the best things, the best things I experienced, was we have this online platform where all the games, every single game, at the top professional level, gets reviewed by a performance reviewer. All the other referees can see the report. They can see the good decisions, the bad decisions, the 50-50s, and I can promise you that every single referee, no matter how many World Cups they've revved, test matches anything everybody makes mistakes. So as soon as I could see that, I was like oh so why am I going out to referee a perfect game, take the pressure off completely, move around the park, see the ball the best you can and make the best decision you can. And if you didn't see it, you can't ref it. So keep it as simple as that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's fantastic advice. I just have to say I'm thankful for this conversation. You've had an unbelievable career. You're still in it. You're still at the top of it, continuing to be progress and advance at the top level of the game. You had an amazing playing career and now as a reffing career as well, and I just, from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for sharing your story to our listeners today.
Speaker 2:I've enjoyed this immensely, so thank you so much, you've been wonderful. Thank you, davis, feel lovely chatting.
Speaker 1:Excellent. So, guys, I hope you enjoyed today's pod. I think we have so much to learn in football from rugby. I encourage you, if you have not watched a rugby match, go check it out. Sincerely, watch a full match. You will love it. You will appreciate it. There's a lot of similarities. There's a lot of things very different. But specifically, look at how the rugby referee manages the game and communicates with the players and how the players communicate with the rugby referee. It will blow your mind in a good way. If you like my show and my content, please consider supporting me by purchasing some merch from the refsneedlove2.com store. The pod, the website, everything else I do has a cost beyond just my time. Purchases from the shop help me cover costs of doing this. Good luck on the pitch and I hope your next match is red card free. We'll see you next time.