REFS NEED LOVE TOO
An honest perspective from the 3rd team on the pitch... the referees. Through humor, analysis and education, we are slowly changing how people view referees and officials in all sports. We care and have a love for the game as much as any player or coach. Sometimes even more. Youth soccer (proper football) is a multi-billion $ industry in the US. Tremendous money is spent on players, competitions, travel etc., but almost nothing spent on developing the next generation of referees. I hope that this Podcast inspires, educates and humanizes the next generation of referees for their own development and appreciation from the players, coaches and spectators they need to work alongside.
REFS NEED LOVE TOO
Breaking Barriers as a Female Referee: Megan Richardson's Inspiring Journey and the Pre-Game Preparation
Uncover the inspiring journey of Megan Richardson, a standout referee from Georgia who has shattered barriers and set new standards in the world of female refereeing. Recognized as the Female Youth Referee of the Year multiple times, Megan opens up about the less obvious challenges she overcomes on the pitch, beyond the commonplace chauvinism. From navigating life changes to mentoring the next generation of referees, her story is a testament to resilience and passion in a male-dominated field.
Embark on a journey through the highs and lows of progressing as a soccer referee, from local games to the intense realm of regional tournaments. We explore the strategic understatements of experience, the impact of prestigious awards, and the mesmerizing environment of multi-day tournaments that test skill and endurance. Listen in as Megan shares her experiences officiating college and semi-professional leagues, highlighting the significance of networking, maintaining strong relationships, and the essential balance between personal commitments and demanding travel schedules.
Empowerment and mentorship take center stage as we discuss the crucial role of programs like FROGS (Female Referees of Georgia) in supporting young female referees. Megan's dedication to inspiring others is evident as she shares the value of representation and the impact of setting a positive pregame tone with detailed preparations. From mastering offside calls to effective communication with assistant referees, we provide practical advice and strategies for handling the pressures of the game. This episode is more than just a conversation—it's a celebration of the resilience and strength female referees bring to sports.
Hey guys, quick note about today's podcast. It runs a little bit long but I think it is so, so important. The second half of the podcast we go through some really great pregame stuff that you can do before your match with your crew Fantastic. So if you want to skip ahead to that, that's good, go for it. But I really encourage you to listen in for the first half of the podcast where we interview a young, phenomenal referee who was referee of the year multiple times here in the state of Georgia young referee of the year and understand from the woman's perspective why they feel discriminated against, why oftentimes they feel like they are treated less than out on the pitch and it's not the normal things that you might think of. Yes, there's chauvinism, yes, people make some nasty comments, but there are other things that they go through that really do create a less than hospitable environment for those wonderful female referees. And I think myself, as a almost 50 year old man out there on the pitch, I want to be an ally to these young women and I want to help them grow and develop and feel like they are welcomed, that they are appreciated and that they can have a long career out there on the pitch, make it part of their life, a hobby, something fun for them to do, an extra source of income. But I want to make sure that they know and feel that this place is for them and that they are appreciated. So give it a good listen, let me know your feedback, share it with other female referees or your state referee association so we can get this message out there far and wide. Before I jump in, though, just real quick, a couple notes to our sponsors just to say thank you again.
Speaker 1:Refersports I've talked about them a number of times but again, we need to make referee management and assigning easy. Make it simple for referees. Why should it be so difficult? Why can't it be native on a mobile app? I mean seriously, in this day and age, everything should be native on a mobile app. You need to know where you're going to be, how much you're getting paid, who your crew is, what's the rules of competition. Make accepting games easy. Make putting your availability easy. Have simple navigation. It is no wonder refer has become the world's fastest growing assigning solution and it's 100% free for assigners. There's no reason for them not to change my gosh, please. They do over 25 sports, so if your assigner does multiple sports. It makes life so easy. Again, it's spelled R-E-F-R, refer sports, if you're looking for it on the app store or web. Additionally, if you're a referee and you're not using the Ref6 Pro app, like seriously, come on.
Speaker 1:I mean, every time people ask me about what watch I use, I just tell them, like listen, I've been through a number of different watches. You know I've used the Spinso. You know I've used different digital watches with different type of counters on it, but none of them are as good as the ref six pro app. And let me tell you, the most important question you're going to get asked during the game is how much time is left, how much time until halftime, how much extra time. We plan all those things and I can manage all that simply and easy via my ref six pro app. And then, post-match, you get all these great statistics and data about how you performed on the pitch. I just love that stuff. I find it interesting. I find that I work harder on the pitch because I know I'm going to be looking at that app after my game and check out how I perform, the heat map, my sprints, all of those types of things. I love it. Listen, if you already are a Ref6 subscriber or you're a new subscriber, make sure to use my code REFSNEEDLOVE R-E-F-S-N-E-E-D-L-O-V-E, and you can get 10% off your monthly or annual subscriptions.
Speaker 1:And now time for the show. Welcome to the Refs Need Love 2 podcast, a show that gives you a real raw and behind-the-scenes view of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch the referee. I'm your host, David Gerson, a grassroots referee and certified mentor with over 10 years of experience and over 1,300 matches under my belt. You can find me at refseedlove2.com, on Instagram, on TikTok and now on YouTube. Today we have a very special guest.
Speaker 1:We're going to be talking with Megan Richardsonon, a very talented and experienced referee I had the pleasure of working with last week at state cup finals. She has been a soccer referee for 10 years, like me, for 14 years she's been officiating everything from high level youth leagues, college, even international matches. She was the georgia female youth referee of the year all the way back in 2016. She she's NSOA certified. She's attended Southern Regionals not once, not twice, not three, four times. She's been to Southern Regionals people. That tells you she's really good. She stepped away from the game for a little while to balance some life changes and she's now returned to refereeing with a renewed focus on mentoring young female referees and advocating for healthier work-life balance. Man, do I know something about that too. When it comes to referee goals and commitments, this is the person to talk to. Welcome to the podcast, megan.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to have this conversation. I tell you you literally, I think in pre-game for those who are listening literally we were doing pre-game together for match and I think this is the first time we've ever worked together yeah, yeah first time ever and literally in the pregrams, like, oh my gosh, I need to have you on my project.
Speaker 2:Yeah I do remember you saying that or pre-game.
Speaker 1:It is like literally like next. So, guys, definitely guys and gals out there, listen up. This can be fantastic, all right. So, megan, tell us about yourself. Give us a little bit of backstory, who you are, your referee journey. Give us a little backstory on you first.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like you said, it's 14 years now since I started. I like that. You know your game count. I do not know my game count. I wish I did it. Your game count. I do not know my game count, I wish I did. It's probably up there, but yes, I started back in 2010.
Speaker 2:I have been a soccer player since I was five. It was my main sport and I realized one day during a game a referee made a call we didn't like and I was like wait, I don't actually know if that was right or wrong, I just everybody's mad about it. So I thought, hey, if I become a referee, I'll know the rules better. So that's actually what got me into. It is, I just wanted to know the game better. And it really took off from there.
Speaker 2:I really only did games for NASA. That was who I played for. Now it's NASA Top Hat, but not when I was there and my assigner he was really the one that was like hey, you're doing really well. Would you be interested in going to State Cup? And I'd only ever played in State Cup. We didn't get very far. I was never on the top team. So I joke that I've gone to higher levels as a referee than I could have even dreamed of as a player. So that's really the launching part of my referee career was when he was like hey, I think you should try going to State Cup and I think you should go to ODP in the summer and they have really great mentors and you'll get really good exposure. I met the assigner for college SEC at ODP, so that was it was an amazing experience and it was all there was at the time outside of regular season. Now you have so many leagues I think you track them.
Speaker 1:So tell me so, at what age did you start refereeing?
Speaker 2:I was. I just turned 13.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Like the month prior, the month after I turned 13,. I certified in October of 2010.
Speaker 1:My gosh, it's just wild, and I just. I think there's so many things to unpack here. First off, number one reffing out of spite is a good reason to become a referee. I firmly believe it.
Speaker 2:I had this vivid memory of that first class the teacher or the instructor going around the room asking everybody why are you here? I was like an icebreaker. What's your name? How old are you? Where are you from? Why are you here? Everybody said money and I had no idea what referees got paid. I guess I didn't know that they got paid, I just didn't know anything about it. He gets to me and I'm like I want to know the rules. He didn't believe me. He said, no, really, why are you here? And I was like money. He's like yeah, exactly, and then just kept going on. I just vivid memory of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I again. Money is not a bad reason to referee. I think for some of us it really is. I think I can, I think I can do a good job at this. I mean, I know what it should be doing, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think without money we wouldn't have any enough referees, at least some, but not enough.
Speaker 1:I know I always have so much respect for those AYSO people out there who do it as a volunteer. But yeah, the money is a nice thing, that's for sure. So let's talk a little bit about that journey. So you start at nine and tell me how you progress, like, how did you start off at 13 years old and then you have your first year on your belt. How quickly did you start making it up, making it to state cup, but you said ODP and then regionals. What was that progression like for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, starting at 13 ref, I didn't really referee a lot because I was playing and my coach had a rule that you can't referee before you play, so that kind of limited what games I could do. And then, also being 13, I couldn't drive. So my parents, bless their hearts, had to take me to all of my games for three years. So I just I was really only doing academy and rec level for those first couple years. But when I started there were the grades, the numbers, and there was a grade nine and that nine didn't give you a black badge, it gave you a blue badge. So you stood out like a sore thumb. Everybody knew you were new.
Speaker 2:In hindsight it was terrible that we did that to people. I'm glad when they stopped. But my never born goal was to get rid of that blue badge my first year. So my very next research you have to certify every year was a bridge class. I wanted to upgrade to an eight. Now I'm bluff, so that was my motivation. My very first motivation for upgrading was I hate having this blue badge. It it's just no.
Speaker 1:I want to get into that one second. So you have this badge. That kind of like shows hey, I'm brand new and I'm young, I'm young and I'm brand new. Like why did you not want that? I think there are some elements out to. Why did you need to be called out with something different? Why didn't you want that? I think there are some elements out there. Why did you need to be called out with?
Speaker 2:something different. Why didn't you want that? I mean being called a blue badge. That was a thing. Oh, you're a blue badge. It was definitely a little derivatory, but I get it. You're being fresh off the boat. The expectation was that you were going to be bad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Listen, I completely agree. I always used to tell brand new referees If someone asks how long you've been doing it just say under a year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was like do not tell anybody, like, oh, this is only my second game, don't do it.
Speaker 1:Don't do that. That's right, absolutely no, a thousand percent. All right. So you get it to eight. And then how did you, when did you make that jump up to getting to regionals? Because that's listen for those who haven't been regionals is a big deal when you make it there yes, it's like one percent of referees, right, they gave us the math and I can't remember it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's no, it was actually so. In georgia, if you receive the youth referee of the year award, it is an automatic bid to regionals. Wow. So when I was seen at State Cup and I started making those relationships like with Mike Wright, who was a state assigner or was a state assigner I think he still is. He does a lot of assigning so once I was on his list, then I was on the radar for, like the Georgia soccer leadership, they knew who I was and this kind of gets into the whole. Is there a lot of competition for female youth referee of the year? No, unfortunately. So it was a double-edged thing that it was honored to get it, but they also didn't award it in 2017. So I had a two years running, which was awesome, but it was also like, oh, I was, I don't know. Sometimes I felt like the default, but it got me to regionals.
Speaker 2:It was the best experience. I never went as a player, so I didn't know what to expect. All I knew was it's an eight-day soccer tournament. This was intense. It is intense. You don't get a lot of sleep because you're either reffing, or you're debriefing, or you're training, or you're meeting with your state delegation. It's just. It's nonstop. We live, breathe, eat, sucker for eight days.
Speaker 1:It was amazing. I still think my first regional was my favorite, yeah yeah, and how did that change you as a referee when you went to regionals and you left the comfort of the georgia and you go tell how did you change as the referee?
Speaker 2:it was very motivating because I had never worked like. I worked with high caliber referees like in ge, Georgia, but not very often because they have to spread us around, share the love. We weren't always together on games because there's just so many games that need a good referee. So regionals it was like every single game I worked with amazing. I had an amazing crew and I'm a better referee when I have better referees on my crew.
Speaker 2:So when I was doing games like my first center, you always get a U13 center your first year at regionals. That's just the rules, no matter how old you are, how good you are at your first regionals, that's all you get one U13 girls center. So I was so nervous for it. But my two ARs and my fourth official were extremely experienced referees and it was like one of my best games because I had the best support. I'm not saying you can't do well with less experienced people on your crew, but it makes a huge difference, at least for me. So it was just so motivating to want to get to higher levels as a referee because as you advance, so do your counterparts. So when I do higher level leagues I get higher caliber referees on my crew and then I do better yeah, out of doubt it's.
Speaker 1:I think it's a inspiring, I think it's eye-opening, without a to see that quality all over the place. Oh my gosh, these people are amazing, without a doubt. So you went to regionals in 2017, regionals in 2018 as well, and then you got certified NISOA and so you did college games. So how long were you doing college refereeing, or you're still continuing to do it?
Speaker 2:So I was only certified for college, I think for two years, because I was in Alabama going to school. So I was really just doing colleges in that region and it's a lot of travel, yeah, which I don't think I was quite prepared for. Schedule-wise it's hard to balance. Doubleheaders are definitely great for those, but to drive two, three hours one way to do one game, it was getting hard to balance that with other things in life. So it's a great experience. It was great money. They know that it's hard, so they compensate well for it. It just was.
Speaker 1:It was a lot of tight commitment and you have to buy all New Jersey. I know that Cool, so talk to me. So what are some of the? So what are the league? Yeah, I know you took a little break. You're back in. So what are the leagues you're doing now?
Speaker 2:And then, what are some of the highest level games that you have reffed personally? Yes. So when I came back, somehow the news found its way to mike right and I got an email from him like, hey, I got these nwsl or and you in us? I get all the letters mixed up, I'm bad at that, but it was like there's these new women's semi-professional adult leagues and he was like I'm really trying to get females on these crews. Are you available for any of these dates? So that was actually like my first games back was these semi-professional women's leagues and I loved it. I love it that the that I come back from a break and we have women's adult, because in order to get a regional badge you have to have an adult game count, and I never really enjoyed doing the men's adult games. Very different from youth, the dynamics is very different, especially being a younger female. It was, yeah, adult games were a little tough for me before my break.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I've always enjoyed doing women's matches. If it's been a college or any of the semi-professional women's, I've always found those to be actually a lot of joy, actually. No, I love when you get the testosterone out of the way on those upsl matches and like those things. It makes it so much easier. We just focus on playing the game pretty much, keeping everyone safe and having a good time. This is awesome, and I think, if I'm not mistaken, you also had the opportunity to do an international match this year, right?
Speaker 2:Yes, brazil came to the US with a couple different teams of varying ages for a round of friendlies with the USA teams and they were playing at the Kennesaw State soccer stadium, which is five minutes from my house, and Mike knows this, so I was on the email chain of the female referees because he wanted all female crews for these games. So that was an amazing experience. I got to do the U-17 girls game and it was just next level. It was like a professional match. The referees had their own locker room and a little badge and then show up and they like take you down to the tunnel area where everything is, and just getting that, it almost felt like I was backstage.
Speaker 1:That's so cool. That's so cool. I know we're going to get a lot more of those opportunities as the headquarters moves here to Georgia in the next year and a half. There's going to be so many more. Obviously, the US national team is here, but all the international teams from Central America. It's just easier for them to hold camps here just because there's so many more flights that come direct to say, Atlanta Huge opportunity.
Speaker 1:Yep. So so you've had these opportunities, some big matches Again. You've done collegiate games, you do D3, you've now done an international match. You've semi-pro games. What advice would you give to referees who are looking to move up and do higher level games? I get this question two or three times a week. What would you tell them if they reached out to you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Tell them if they reached out to you. Yeah, no, it's really about your network. A lot of the higher level games that I've gotten to do when I was first starting out was because somebody requested me. So when you do games, you want the people you work with to want to work with you again and you want your signers to see you as a reliable referee. Don't give bad availability so you have to turn back games. Don't not show up to a game. Try to keep complaints to a minimum if you can. You just really need to build up that network, because if nobody knows who you are, then they can't assign you the games. So it does take a lot of work to build that network, but that's essentially how you're going to move up and get better and better assignments is you need referees in your corner and you need assigners in your corner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's definitely a who you know, and no one wants to work with someone who's not nice, seriously you know, who doesn't have your back or shows up five minutes before kickoff or something like that. Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's really important. The network called your fellow referees, without a doubt, but the assigners. We would talk about Mike Ryan, and Mike's one of my assigners too and and he knows he can just call me out of the blue and I'll do anything I can for him or help him find someone for that match as well, which is really important. We've talked about you being a female referee in particular, and I want to talk specifically from a woman's perspective. When you are working let's just talk about you're working men's games in particular, or teenage men or whatever that might be boys Do you feel that you get treated differently because you're a woman?
Speaker 2:Yes, okay. So how, yeah, good.
Speaker 1:Let's if is there any good that comes out of it than treating you differently.
Speaker 2:I think there's good things that I have experienced just being a female referee. I tend to be easier to remember, so that kind of helps. But as far as how players and coaches treat me, I'm not sure if I've gotten any benefits from being a woman, unless it's like the female players I definitely get about like it's easier. I think they feel like I'm more approachable. But with the guys I feel like they see me as less approachable.
Speaker 2:And it's funny how often I'll walk up at the before game time to introduce myself to coaches and even though I'm in the center of like my ARs are on the side of me, so maybe I'm even holding my whistle, like I'm clearly the center. For the day I'm in charge, coaches almost always introduce themselves to the guys standing next to me first. It almost never fails. So I almost step a little ahead of my ARs now as we come up to the coaches and try and interject myself Hi, I'm Megan, I'm your center. Like I try and just beat the punch because I noticed that was happening like every single time. So it just always feels like I have to prove myself a little more than I think the guys do on those games. But that's just been my experience.
Speaker 1:I hate to ask, but have there been any negative situations? Or do you feel, specifically because you're a woman on the pitch, that people treated you differently, negatively, chauvinistically, anything like that?
Speaker 2:anything like that. So one of the reasons I actually took a break from refereeing was at that third regionals I went to. I'd actually badly sprained my ankle right before doing a women's heavy professional game. It was so much fun and then my ankle turned black and blue but because of that I could only do fourth officials at regionals. I think I set a record, though at 13 games you moved it Third and fourth officials. I was known as super fourth. That last game I did was a semifinal and I was fourth official.
Speaker 2:The coach was friendly, which I deal with friendly coaches, and sometimes it almost feels like a little too friendly, like borderline flirting, but usually it doesn't go anywhere. I just ignore it when that happens. End of the game comes around and they have to sign the game reports and typically we supply the pen to the coach. Coaches don't carry around their own pens, so I hand him my pen and the game report and he did not want to hand back my pen. He wanted my hand so he could write his number on it. This is at Regents.
Speaker 2:There were other things that happened during the game, like asking what kind of tournaments I do. I ever do tournaments in Florida. Is that where he was from. If I had a Snapchat, anytime he'd come up to talk to me. He'd get a little close. His hand would sometimes wander towards my back where it didn't need to be. At regionals, there's almost always referees that aren't doing games walking around hanging out at midfield, so they saw all of this. They're basically witnesses, and that regionals ended with me filling out a report and then to launch an investigation and all of that stuff.
Speaker 2:So that was just another one of the reasons I was like I need a break. So it's yeah, it can be hard sometimes being a female referee, especially starting out young.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, megan, I'll be honest. You talk about the situations that these matches where coaches are coming up and they're shaking the hands of the male referees or they're just not expecting a female. It a thing, I think, when, when we do higher level matches, maybe only five or ten percent of the referees in that group of referees are female and there's not a lot of them. But I think there's reasons why they don't want to continue on, because it feels like in those classes, when you go to those first referee classes, it's almost 50 50 guys and girls. Yeah, it really is. It is like at the first time referee courses, it seems like the room is evenly split guys and girls, but it does seem like girls drop out at a higher rate at some point in time. And can you sum it up? It's obviously this was a very uncomfortable, unprofessional, absurd advances this person was making in this situation, which is unacceptable. But what are some of the other reasons why you feel that young women are dropping out of being referees?
Speaker 2:I do think that we receive harsher criticism and a different kind of verbal abuse. I remember one of my very first centers. It was a rec game and one of the parents yelled out I guess I wasn't calling enough. Fouls yelled out. Your whistle isn't just an accessory and that's not something you're going to say to a guy. Rather you yell ref. You missed that one. At least that has nothing to do with me being a girl. So I think we, I think there's just again there's that idea that oh, she's gonna be worse than a male referee. I can't believe they gave us a girl and then they're just already primed and and ready to sling verbal abuse at us. We just start in the hole, we just start in the hole. We always start in the hole and I have to claw our way there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we could talk about this all day, but that's a society issue, right. Where are having to work sometimes twice as hard or three times as hard to get to the same place, get to the same pay as their male counterparts do? So what about you, like? How do you stay focused? I know you've come back, but you ref for over a decade before you stepped away, so what is it that keeps you coming back? How do you stay confident and moving forward on the pitch as a female referee?
Speaker 2:Honestly, I do it for the players. It's the little conversations that I have with the players. Sometimes it almost feels like I'm making a friend and like I want to be a reason that people keep playing soccer. I want to be a reason that people enjoy the game, and it's really the players. You can't have soccer without referees at least you can't have organized soccer without referees. So so part of me didn't want to come back, but another part of me was like we're losing referees at an alarming rate and I can make a difference. So that was probably the main reason I came back. Was I just I wanted to do it for the players. I wanted to come back and help be that difference and I just I really do enjoy it. It's another thing to get me out of the players. I wanted to come back and help be that difference and I just I really do enjoy it. It's another thing to get me out of the house. It's a fun hobby.
Speaker 2:It's obviously you got a little side hustle money there that doesn't hurt, but it's nice to have something that you're good at. We all just enjoy doing things that we're good at and I also feel like I'm really good confidence boost, but really I just enjoy those interactions with the players.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, you do. You have a phenomenal. It's very interesting. I think so much of being a referee is your confidence and charisma on the pitch, and just an aura that you give off personality, and you have phenomenal personality for being a referee.
Speaker 1:I'll tell you that. So one thing I want to ask you is just about when you started again this 13, 14 years ago as a young female referee. Do you think things have changed at all? Is there more support now for young female referees than there was 13, 14 years ago, or at least more examples of successful female referees you could actually see on TV, Lori.
Speaker 2:Penso is absolutely killing it. It's amazing how much things have changed. You now have women in the MLS, female referees in the MLS. That was not a thing or even a thought probably 10 years ago. And Georgia especially is pushing for like specific female referee programs. We've got the Frogs program, female referees of Georgia, which I love, and I think that it makes a huge difference for a young female referee to be able to see successful, experienced female referee and know that OK, there's like light at the end of the tunnel, like it gets better, you will improve.
Speaker 2:It's because I think that's why they drop out. They go out there and they're surrounded by probably a bunch of and all I'm saying is anything wrong with middle-aged men, but that's what they're surrounded by. That's how I started. I still remember my very first game, the center just being this dad guy never really working with any other girls. It was all just. I'm sure that I can be discouraging sometimes, so I think it makes a huge difference when we put on these events that are specifically for female referees. If there's a women's tournament or girls tournament coming out, they'll try to organize mentorship group to come out. Invite as many female referees as we can to that tournament. Have them do games, put a mentor on every field so that I can get feedback and they can just hear from us, they can see us. I think it just makes all the difference.
Speaker 1:No, it's fantastic. I know again. Obviously I am one of those dads and I'm not a young woman, but if I was a young woman and I had a chance to spend time with you and Claire and Shiva, there's a, there's a two other very high level referees in our state and I can look at them and be like, oh my gosh, they're like someone I can identify with without a doubt and they're killing it out there as a strong, powerful, confident, excellent athlete referee, wonderful people. It would make such a difference for me. So having that representation to see those people is so important, because I think there's some people like, oh, why are they making sure that they have female crews? Everyone should be on those games, because it matters. It's like really big deal to have that representation and have that experience, especially even just for those own referees. For you as a referee, to be able to work with other female referees makes a difference and, as we, it normalizes it.
Speaker 2:Like I, the stigma that I had to deal with 14 years ago of why is there a female center on a men's game? Professionals don't even do that. That's gone. So it's being normalized and that's probably't even do that. That's gone, so it's being normalized and that's probably. Yeah, that helps a lot too.
Speaker 1:I love it. All right. So now we're going to get into the topic I've been wanting to talk about for two weeks now. We are going to talk pregame. I kid you not, I think it's got it in front of me, yes, yes. So I want to set the scene. So we're in the referee room. There's a big room, there's a bunch of mentors in there and other referees, and this is where we were having our pregame conversations before we step on the pitch for State Cup and Megan busts out this laminated card, not just one single-sided, yeah, she's showing it to the camera card, not just like one like single side.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she's showing it to the camera. It's got like multiple sides, multiple pages, and she was covering things in pregame that I've never heard talked about before, and oftentimes in pregame people are like yeah, just just gonna give me a little indication on throw-ins. I follow everything down to the, the goal line. If you got a foul, call it and that's about it. But it's as you move higher and higher levels, the pregame gets much more detail. But megan has actually laminated some cards and she goes through them step by step and I found them to be really valuable. So we're going to be talking about here. All right, so on your cards you've got a number of items. One of them, specifically, is coaches. What do you talk about related to coaches in your pregame?
Speaker 2:yeah, that's almost the very first thing. The first thing on there is inspect the field, which I probably don't need a reminder for that anymore, but it's always good to have on there. But coaches are next and that's because that's going to set the tone how you interact with the coaches. That first impression, like I was talking about earlier, I started walking just ahead of my ARs to make sure I introduce myself first if I'm the center, so that's the first thing on there is like greet the coaches. You need to establish some kind of rapport, like an open line of communication, because you are probably going to have to talk to them during the game. There's probably going to be a call at some point that they might want an explanation on and if you've already established this open dialogue, that's going to help you later on in the game when you have to have a discussion.
Speaker 2:Name I personally do not call coaches by their name. I think it's a little too familiar and I don't want them calling me by my name. I'm referee or miss or sometimes ma'am, even sir. I do get sir a lot, which is funny, so I guess it's gender neutral it could get worse, I'll take it definitely get worse.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you, that's what I tell them. Like I'll take it. It's fine, but I always just refer to them as coach. I know some people. They've known them for years and years. Maybe they played for them, but I don't like to get that familiar. So to each their own, but that's all. That's what I start with. Is you set the tone with that first impression?
Speaker 1:All right, so next one is offside.
Speaker 2:What do you talk have on offside is, of course, deflection versus deliberate, and how I will help my ARs make that decision. That method is going to be different for everybody, but I explain my method, which is I'm going to try and be vocal. If I see a deliberate play, I'm going to be yelling deliberate, hopefully, and if it's a deflection, I will be yelling deflection. So I've been doing this long enough that I can typically recognize an offside play as it's happening. So if I know that hey, this is a possible offside infraction and I'm watching the ball and I see it touch a defender, I can recognize my AR is going to need help now because that ball touched you. That might come with time and experience. If you're not able to do that yet, that's still good to have a conversation with your AR and make sure that they understand the difference between deflection and deliberate before it happens in the game. So it's a good reminder for everybody all around, even if you don't feel comfortable giving that vocal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the laws have changed in the last couple of years. Not still Not everyone is aware of the law change. That's a good one, yeah.
Speaker 2:They like to change offside just about every year now, so you do need to talk about that.
Speaker 1:You do All right, so you do deflection, deliberate anything else.
Speaker 2:So I also just remind them of what to do when they're unsure, which is always to just keep your flag down and if a goal is scored, you're going to stand there. Don't do your run up. You're going to stand there, we're going to talk about it If you thought there might've been offside there. So anytime something is too close to call, don't call it. Wait see what happens to the play. If it's a game critical decision, then you just stand there and we're going to talk about it. So I always like to remind them of that too. Tie those to the runner, kind of thing, but don't call it the up, just let it run out the all-side and off-side. That's all I have on mine.
Speaker 1:So if there's anything you would add, or I just want to say, even in, they're having Carabao Cup games right now, they're League Cup right now and there was a goal scored by Liverpool that had there been VAR, it would have been offside because his shoulder was barely off right as the ball was being played. Seriously, even professionals, if it's that tight, they keep their flag. They're not raising their flag if they're not sure they're going to allow it to go forth. And hey, if it's that tight, don't worry about it, it's okay. Do the best you possibly can and stand there. Let's have a conversation in DB, all right? How about substitutions? What do?
Speaker 2:you tell people on subs, yes. So if there's a fourth official on the match, I'll typically just have this conversation with the fourth official and maybe the error one as well, to help out. But number one is communication. We need to all be on the same page about substitutes, because the worst thing is to miss a substitute and then the coaches get angry and the players get angry and they're yelling at you refs out, refs out. I hate that. So if you don't have mics and you don't have beeper flags, how are you going to communicate?
Speaker 2:Mirror? Ars need to mirror. I am typically very good about checking my ARs on almost every dead ball, but that comes with time and experience. So if you're a newer referee and you're not so good about looking behind you on a dead ball to see if there's subs, tell your AR two to mirror AR one when they put their flag up for subs. That way you're getting the same information without turning around.
Speaker 2:So mirroring, mirroring, mirroring it's so helpful to have that on there, and then I have pennies on here and holding the subs, which might not apply in every league I wish it did because the consistency would help the kids but at least in higher level games or higher level tournaments like state cup. We are going to require substitutes to wear pennies. No balls can be out. No warming up with balls on the sideline. Keep them in the bags and when they come up to midfield to substitute, keep your penny on until the referee calls for substitutions and don't step on the field until your substitute has stepped all the way off. I wish we didn't. That's freaking, because then these kids wouldn't get so confused all the time when we finally ask them to do it.
Speaker 1:But I understand we're not really there yet to do it across the I just feel so bad for them because I'm like screaming at them stay there, call it exactly I'll use my whistle, oh my god, and they just look like what did I do wrong?
Speaker 2:and I'm like you're fine, just wait I don't have you ever seen a professional game?
Speaker 1:they wait I know, I know, but I, I, I guarantee 80 of refs, don't ask them to do that. And yeah, it's just like when we do what so confused, but usually after the first three times. But again, good conversation to have with AR1 as to what your expectation is with them in managing those subs as well and managing that area. Talk to me about a little bit about eye contact. What do you talk about? Relate eye contact in your pregame?
Speaker 2:So again, if you don't have beeper flags and you don't have comms, you need to want something in return. So I know, you saw me, you're engaged, you don't have anything for me, you're all good, I'm like. I established that. I'm like I'm this kind of referee where I do want you to give something back and don't even just stare at me. And then I reiterate the classic signals of if it's a yellow card on a play, then you're tapping somewhere on your jersey, and if it's a red card, you're tapping somewhere on your shorts. And if you just have information, you just want to talk to me, maybe see a player with an earring you can always tap your badge, and that means information.
Speaker 2:Or if it's really urgent, the game cannot continue, push a flag up, just put your flag up. Excellent, just push a flag up, come onto the field if you really need to. I've had that happen in situations. Somebody was like bleeding. Yeah, you gotta stop the game. You gotta or don't start the game yet. So that's the eye contact and the communication all in that. One Probably should have titled it communication.
Speaker 1:It's all good. It's all good I there's a bunch more to go through. I want to hit a few of them, though. Talk to me about your instruction on signal by proximity and fouls. Talk to me about that. What? What is your guidance for the reference?
Speaker 2:so this is something I stole from another reference. Most of the stuff on here is just collected from other referees pre-games. I just threw it all together. I loved this one because, as an AR, when you are running down the sideline towards the corner flag because somebody just boom-balled it, the ball's probably going to beat you to the goal line and you're not supposed to signal until you get to the goal line. So everybody's, if you're a good center referee, you want to wait for your AR to give you some kind of information. You don't want to just leave them hanging. We all hate that.
Speaker 2:We finally get to the goal line, we look at the referee, we signal and they've already turned their referee. Yes, so to compromise, and I'm like okay, here's what we're going to do. If the ball has just been skied and it's going to go out to the goal line, if it's going to be a corner kick, sprint. You're going to need to be there anyway to signal down to the corner flag. So just sprint, and I'll know that you're sprinting for a reason. You saw a corner kick. If it's going to go out for a goal kick, though, just jog, because you're only going to go to the six yard line anyway and signal from there. So I'll be able to tell from your speed what information you're going to give me. So that gives me a little bit more time to decide whether or not I might need to wave you down because I have something different. But also it just puts us on the same page earlier and and I thought that was just so clever- yeah, no, I love that.
Speaker 1:I love that. I think that's a very high level type of communication that you wouldn't normally hear and I hadn't heard before. You said that to me. I think that was fantastic. So what is now? The guidance you give them on fouls, the ability for them to call fouls or inform you about fouls on that field fouls, the?
Speaker 2:ability for them to call fouls or inform you about fouls on the field. Yes, so generally I'm gonna ask my ars first how long they've been reffing so I can get a sense of their experience level, because that'll determine how confident and comfortable they are and even putting up their flag for fouls. I don't think I ever put my flag up for fouls in ar till like my third, maybe fourth year, like I. I didn't think that was my job for like the longest time, because I saw my job.
Speaker 2:I call throw ins so that's the first thing is I want to get a sense for, like, how comfortable are you calling how? How long they've been roughing also gives me an idea of if they have probably done it in the past. But then I will also reiterate that is part of your job. You have the authority to do that. You are here to assist me and part of that is calling fouls. So, like, I try to empower them a little bit too, because I know I've had pre-games with referees who say don't call fouls, don't call anything basically, and I I think that's very discouraging.
Speaker 2:So I try to do the exact opposite and empower my ARs to be just as into the game as I am, because we're all on the same team. So I tell them hey, if you see something, first thing you're gonna do is look at me, look where I'm looking. If I'm looking somewhere else, you're probably 100% sure I didn't see it and now you need to make the decision Is that worth calling? And that's just. That's you. I will go with you. If you call it, I'm going to call it.
Speaker 2:So just be sure, if I am looking at it, maybe wait, I'm an expressive referee. I'm going to be shaking my head if I don't think it's a foul, or telling them to keep playing. Or I try very hard because I'm at a higher level and it's expected of me to play advantage in certain situations. So I'm also working on being patient as a referee to watch out for those. So I might be doing that. So I'm like, just don't be trigger happy with the fouls, look at what I'm looking at, be sure that it's something that's needs to be called and just wait to see if maybe there could be an advantage situation. So I'm really just empowering them and giving them all the tools and information, like a little checklist to run through before they raise the flag, but I want them to feel comfortable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think in most matches I'm probably silent 85, 90% of the time, it's probably more 95%. But there are some moments when there's something happening where I feel I need to provide some feedback to everyone that I saw it Nothing. There, play on she tripped, keep playing Whatever it might be, and to say that. Or there, play on she tripped, keep playing whatever it might be, and to say that. Or again, on these handball situations which are always subjective.
Speaker 1:Whatnot arms in tight play on no foul. Play on whatever that might be, but definitely for my assistant referees if it's in the penalty area. And I have said all ball play on no foul. Please do not raise your flag, please other times no problem especially as a bear.
Speaker 1:Be patient, please. Yeah, I. I think that's one thing we all say is if it's an attacking situation coming on in, be patient. Look where I am, look where I'm saying whatnot. Obviously, if you got it, call it. If I'm not saying anything coming out, go a little quicker.
Speaker 2:I think the one exception I have to the wait and see rule with fouls is if we're in that attacking third and it's a foul, that's going to come out. It was a foul on the defense. Yeah, flag it, call it right until you get to the really high leagues. There's never going to be an advantage situation there. Just call it. Build yourself that easy credibility, give to the defense, let's go. So, yeah, that's the one exception.
Speaker 1:I was like you don't have to wait and see on this, just like it yeah, I think that what people miss is if you don't call that and then the other team winds up getting possession, winds up scoring, you literally lose all your credibility that you've built up the entire match and everything could just be gone in just that one moment. You don't call that foul. So so, yeah, it's not everything is equal. Not everything is equal. I know there's more stuff to go through. I do want to ask you a few more questions, if you don't mind, just like some of the main things that I do love to ask about. It's mistakes we're making. We're talking about making calls here and how critical it is. Hey, we're making this call, we're being verbal, we're being confident in our decisions out there, especially as we talk about, as a female referee, being strong and confident in your decision when you've made that call. How do you deal with mistakes? Because we all make mistakes. Professionals make mistakes. How do you deal with mistakes?
Speaker 2:That is the most important thing to remember is we all make mistakes. We're human. We're going to make mistakes. I've never had a perfect game, never Even doing like a little U10 game. There's always going to be something. I miss something that goes wrong, almost especially in the U10 games, because it's some crazy soccer subjects. But it's just that's what's important to remember. We're human. We all make mistakes. Players make mistakes, don't they? Coaches make mistakes, we're no different.
Speaker 2:So just don't even set your expectation at perfection. Just don't even do it. Set your expectation at getting better with each game, just improvement, that's it. So that's my first advice is just have that already, because I know, especially with women, we're the ones that are going to typically suffer from this perfectionistic. We can never make mistakes.
Speaker 2:Again, just going back to how society has shaped the world for us, it can be a little bit harder when we make those mistakes to bounce back from them, and I've actually found that owning up to it can almost be cathartic and almost give you the credibility back. Like I've had conversations with coaches where they wanted a foul and I didn't call it, and I've owned up to it and I said, yeah, no, I think that was a foul. I do think I missed that. Sorry about that, coach, that's on me. Generally, what would you say to somebody that did that? You'd be like thanks, okay. Usually they're shocked by it first and then it's like all right, but I really I think that helps because having that accountability, I think that beats volumes. So definitely I. I would just never recommend arguing when you know you're wrong. Just admit to it and move on. Everybody else is going to move on, so you might as well move on too. But I do think that there are two different kinds of mistakes and one of them will hurt you more than the other If you just make a judgment call mistake. You just didn't think something was up, or you didn't think that was a handball.
Speaker 2:There's gray areas in the laws of the game and nobody can really tell you otherwise sometimes, because you can make a case both ways. Is that a mistake? Is it not a mistake? Like, maybe you missed it, maybe you didn't, it's okay, those are going to be forgiven and forgotten.
Speaker 2:It's the knowledge of the game, the laws of the game, administrative stuff. Those can really bite you if you don't count players on the roster and one team has too many, if you don't get your game reports signed properly. If you award direct free kick for what should have been an indirect free kick offense, now you're giving the impression that you don't an indirect free kick offense Now you're giving the impression that you don't know what you're doing. Maybe you didn't read the laws. Maybe you didn't read the rules of competition because you played the wrong amount of overtime. That's going to be a lot harder to come back from because that seems like you didn't do your due diligence. So always read the rules of competition, have a copy on you, always be reviewing the laws of the game, especially the changes, and just try to get those things right. The gray area you'll come back from, that It'll bounce real fast. But really do your due diligence on the administrative stuff and black and white.
Speaker 1:I agree, I agree. All right, I have one final question for you, megan. So if you were going to be speaking to a new referee class let's say it's an all girls class you got 13, 14, 15 year old girls sitting in this new referee class. They just got their, they're about to get their 2025 badges. What advice would you give those young women to help them prepare them for what they're about to experience and hopefully be in the right mindset to go through it and then, with long term, I would tell them to write down why you want to be a referee.
Speaker 2:Keep it in your bag and look at it as often as you need to, because you're going to have some tough games. I have had games that made me cry, that made me want to quit, and it is really hard sometimes to get over that, to tell yourself that what they said doesn't matter, that they were just upset that they lost which is probably the case, but it still hurt when they said it. So just know why you're there, because that's going to help. And then confidence. For me it came with time and came with experience. That's one of the things that I attribute to refereeing and I think refereeing for it every day is my sense of self-confidence. I was not a very self-confident child. It was very different when I started out versus today very shy it's. I am completely changed because of it. So it will get better. You will start to feel more comfortable as you do more games. Just remember why you're doing it and let that fuel you.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, megan. Thank you so much for what you've done, certainly all the things that you've accomplished, the example that you're setting now for all referees, and especially those young female referees that need a mentor and an inspiration and someone to look towards to guide them. So thank you so much for being on the podcast today. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Oh no, my pleasure. All right, guys. I hope everyone enjoyed today's pod. Megan is a great example for referees everywhere. She's reffed at some of the highest levels amateur, collegiate and even international games and now she's focusing on giving back to the next generation of referees. Look at that, my gosh. All right, as a reminder, everyone, please check out the Refs Need Love To online store. The May the Laws Be With you t-shirt is cheeky and cozy at the same time. It is a great combination. Everything gets poured back into making this channel possible. As always, I wish you all the best and I hope your next match is red card free.