REFS NEED LOVE TOO
An honest perspective from the 3rd team on the pitch... the referees. Through humor, analysis and education, we are slowly changing how people view referees and officials in all sports. We care and have a love for the game as much as any player or coach. Sometimes even more. Youth soccer (proper football) is a multi-billion $ industry in the US. Tremendous money is spent on players, competitions, travel etc., but almost nothing spent on developing the next generation of referees. I hope that this Podcast inspires, educates and humanizes the next generation of referees for their own development and appreciation from the players, coaches and spectators they need to work alongside.
REFS NEED LOVE TOO
Navigating Legal Challenges and Ensuring Referee Safety with Andres Vidales
Step into the intricate world of sports officiating with seasoned litigation and trial attorney Andres Vidaldez, who brings a dual perspective as both a legal expert and a referee. Discover the unique intersection of law and sports as Andres shares insights into the complex legal landscape referees must navigate. Learn about the critical importance of understanding contracts and legal responsibilities, as well as the passion and dedication required to thrive in refereeing, whether it's a vocation or an avocation.
Explore the potential liabilities referees face on the field, from handling mass confrontations to managing on-field injuries. We shed light on the essential duties that referees must perform diligently, like conducting pregame inspections and enforcing safety-related rules, to protect themselves from legal consequences. Through real-world scenarios, we illustrate how referees can maintain safety and uphold the integrity of the game, while also safeguarding themselves from potential lawsuits.
Our conversation takes a serious turn as we address the alarming issue of assaults on referees, particularly in youth sports, and the legal avenues available for their protection. Understand the critical steps referees should take if assaulted, from ensuring personal safety to pursuing both criminal and civil actions. We emphasize the need for robust security measures at sports events and the importance of legal support in maintaining the safety and integrity of officiating. Join us for an episode that not only educates but also champions the safety and rights of referees everywhere.
You can learn more or contact Andres at www.andresvidales.com
very interesting podcast coming up for you guys today. I know you never want to think about the legal side of things as a referee, but we do sign a contract when we become referees and there is liability and I hate to say this the potential that someone may get upset with us, and we've seen referees be assaulted or threatened, and so what is the legal ramifications and considerations for that? So we're going to be talking about that today with our guests. Additionally, I always want to give a really special shout out to our sponsors. Uh, first off, ref six. I mean, I don't know how I would ref without it. Honestly, I've had my wife drive to the fields 25, 30 minutes away in between my matches so that I could get my watch, my Apple watch, if I left it at home, because I don't know how to ref without a ref six watch on my watch. It's like without that app and just using a regular digital, I like really struggled to tell time. I'm calculating how much time is left, how long are these halves, All that kind of stuff. It's crazy. And again, I love the stats afterwards. If you don't have REF6 or you're already subscribed to it, make sure to use the code REFSNEEDLOV2, spelled out T-O-O there, of course, for the two, and you get 10% off your subscription, whether it's monthly or annual.
Speaker 1:Additionally, our other sponsor, REFersports, again native on a mobile app. That is the way every assigning platform should be. I can't even begin to tell you how frustrating it is trying to balance all of these different mechanisms and platforms and websites that are out there right now that were never meant to be used in the year 2025, which is when we're in. I want to know where I got to be, how much I'm getting paid, who's on my crew. One click be able to reach out to my crew, message them, email them, call them, whatever Rules of competition Make accepting games easy and simple navigation. It's no wonder it's the world's fastest growing assigning solution and it's 100% free for assigners. My gosh, there is no reason not to use the Refersports app. Look it up in the app store Again. It's spelled R-E-F-R sports app. Look it up in the app store Again, it's spelled R, E, F, R. Okay, they only. They don't need an E, they're so good, they just need the R. Look them up on the app store. Look them up on their website refer sports. Reach out to them. They make assigning easy.
Speaker 1:Hello and welcome to the refs. Need love to podcast a show that gives you a real, raw and behind-the-scenes view of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch the referee. I'm your host, David Gerson, a grassroots referee and certified mentor with over 10 years of experience and over 1,300 matches under my belt. You can find me at refsneedlove2.com, on Instagram, TikTok and now even YouTube. Today we are going to be talking to Andres Vidaldez.
Speaker 1:Andres is a litigation and trial attorney based in Miami, Florida, specializing in personal injury, criminal defense and complex litigation. That's right, guys, we're talking law today, and this guy has a passion for justice. Andres has built a reputation for handling cases that require precision and strategic advocacy, including representing referees and sports officials facing unique legal challenges. That's right, he's a referee, too, guys. His practice offers personalized legal services, prioritizing client advocacy in cases ranging from commercial issues to personal injury disputes. With a deep understanding of sports and the legal issues that referees face, Andres is a trusted voice for justice on and off the field. In addition to his legal work, he enjoys engaging with the community through educational initiatives and public speaking, aiming to empower individuals with the knowledge to protect their rights.
Speaker 2:Andres welcome to the podcast. Sir, thank you so much. Thank you for having me big fan been watching for a while now. I'm just very glad that I get to sit here and have a chat with you today, oh my gosh, this is a big deal.
Speaker 1:I know you and I were talking in the right before we got on the air and yes, for many people, being a referee is a hobby. It's a fun thing to do, maybe you get a little exercise, but it also is a job and we sign contracts and there are legal considerations. I don't know that a lot of people understand that or think about that.
Speaker 2:Absolutely it is, and I think you hit it right. I like to tell everybody what we do out there on the pitch. It's a passion. I don't think I've met a referee out there that's not doing it for the love of the game, and there's some of us that also do this for a living. Just there's some of us that this is what we like to do when on our free time or the extra time that we have in our hands, but it's a great feeling to be out there and it's something that we should all be proud of that we partake for this beautiful game.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's outstanding. So let's get a little bit of backstory about you as a referee, because I mean, it's not like you're just doing U6 and U8 matches. Tell us your story. How did you get started? How long have you been doing it? What type of games are you doing now?
Speaker 2:Oh so, david. So I started. I've been a referee for a little bit overification this year, so I'm about to get that done, okay.
Speaker 1:I haven't done my research either. I was trying. I'm going to do it this week, I promise. I promise, don't tell the people it's not 25 yet. It's okay, you're forgiven, sir. Okay, so for 14 years you haven't recertified 2025 yet, but you still got a week. You're good.
Speaker 2:Okay soon here, but I've been doing all types of games. I started doing UA, u9, U10, and I was fortunate enough I've done games. Now I'm NCAA as well, so I officiate collegiate games. I've done international friendlies I think the best one that I can think of is Nacional, from Uruguay versus Peñarol, down here in Boca Raton. I've done a US Nike friendlies, done USL games, so I have some semi-professional games under my belt as well.
Speaker 2:And once again, since we're on full disclosure, some done some of those exciting unsanctioned leagues that I think is the school of hard knocks on here. But that's where I tell everybody, a lot of you earn your stripes there because it's tough to be there Doing this for quite a while and also now at this point because of my practice, the way that it's expanded and it's taken off. It's slowed down for me quite a bit. I'm going on the downtrend right now, but very excited to see the young referees that are coming up and it's something for me now that I say what can I do for them to improve this arena and this and this field that we that we have been taking or partaking in for so long?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we need to set a little bit of scene here. So you are based in South Florida, which has a very international and heavy South American influence. In football, in soccer, it's not and no, no offense to Minnesota, which is very nice up there, coming from Uruguay and Argentina and Brazil and Colombia the passion around the game it's a little bit different, it's a little crazy, without a doubt. What are the types of nationalities you talk about, these unsanctioned leagues? What type of nationalities are you often officiating there?
Speaker 2:Oh, david, this is first. You hit it right on the head. I live in South Florida, but I'm in the melting pot, I'm in Miami, Florida, okay. And so we have all types of nationalities here and, quite frankly, most of these leagues and these teams, they're based around those nationalities. So you have the Colombians, the Argentinians, the Uruguayans, the Jamaicans, the Hondurans, the Nicaraguan, you get it all. You get it all. They're Germans. So it's quite exciting, because you see all types of soccer but at the same time, you also see the types of personalities, and so much of what we do on the pitch is player management and managing those personalities. So, having different cultures, different nationalities, you have to know how to be able to communicate with those individuals and how to get your point across in an effective and friendly manner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great point. If I'm not mistaken, you are bilingual. You speak Spanish fluently.
Speaker 2:I do. I'm bilingual. I speak Spanish, I speak English, but I've also learned a lot of words in other languages. All right, that is there.
Speaker 1:What do you, what would you? What do you think makes us a successful referee for those types of matches, those non-sanctioned adult? I hesitate to use the word recreational, because it should be, but sometimes it boils over. What do you think makes a good referee in those types of matches? How do you manage those emotions in those games?
Speaker 2:I think player management is the essential right. If you can manage the personnel, the players on the field, understand that everybody reacts differently, different types of personalities, different types of charisma that it's going to take on your behalf and approaches, then you're going to be okay. Because I see it out there. I go out to the pitch a lot. I have a 14-year-old son that plays, so I'm also that. I forgot to tell you I'm that dad as well that's on the sideline and I see these referees that are out there.
Speaker 2:We cannot be just one way or my way and the highway. We need to understand that there's 22 males or females playing at that moment and that we need to know how to manage each and every one of them. And so I think you do that. I think you identify the players the one or two players from each team that are very influential in their own team and win them over. I think it takes you a long way because it's going to make your game management much easier.
Speaker 2:And then the other thing is also to be cognizant and aware of the game that you're in and the surroundings that you're in. So understand what the game is asking for and try not to be the center of attention for the game because, honestly, the crowds and the people came to see the 22 players battered it out. We are a necessity and a requirement for the game, but we are not the actual spectacle that they came to see. And that's the approach that I took in every single one of my games to make sure that we have a nice flow to it and that everybody understood that I'm here to help them have a good time and enjoy this game, because without us it just there wouldn't be the match right, it wouldn't be soccer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I love that. Okay, quick question for you now. Okay, what was the craziest experience you've seen as a referee, like when you were on the pitch? What has been the craziest thing that you've experienced, whether it's mass cons, fights between players, spectators going bananas what's been the craziest thing you've seen?
Speaker 2:Man, I've listen, I've been involved in quite a couple of exciting moments, but I think you used the word craziest to me was we were doing. I was doing a game here in Kendall Soccer Park. So for those of you from South Florida, especially from Miami, you know what. That is Okay, and it was a final, and I was doing it with two of my good friends as assistant referees. I love officiating with every single, every referee that I've done games with. They're my friends, but you have that special crew that you enjoy going out there with. But this match was. It was a final. It was a Cuban nationality team against a Colombian team, so you have that going on as well.
Speaker 2:It goes to show how small things matter and I would also say I'm responsible in some aspect for it. We had spectators on the sides, on the corners, where the bench sides were at, and I told the owner of the league. I said I don't want that to happen. They need to move to the other side. The owner I allowed I made the mistake, he was young in my career allowed me to be convinced. I know they're okay, they're going to be in the corner. We let it happen.
Speaker 2:Long story short, this game was really heated. It was hot, there was a lot of temperaments, the fans were getting involved, insults were coming from off the pitch, the players were insulting also and finally a fight, mass con, broke out, to the point where the entire side that I had already identified that should not have been there. They jumped into the field as well and someone yeah, this is really bad someone took out a knife and I think about the size of my arm, okay, and at that point I'll never forget and I'll keep his name confidential, but he's a good friend of mine. He looked at me. He was young, in his career. He's now a national referee. He said Andres, what do we do? And I looked at him and said what do we do? We get the hell out of here.
Speaker 1:There's nothing else to do here, and I think it think we've all wanted to assault someone. We've had that thought in our mind, whatnot? It's natural, but my advice is get away, write your report, get to safety, call the police if need be, whatever it it is, but it's not worth losing your life over as a referee. In that scenario, it's yeah, match abandoned. We'll write our reports and we'll live to ref another day, that's for sure. That's definitely definitely so.
Speaker 1:Let's talk a little bit about the legal side for referees. Okay, because that I think this is a great. It's a great jumping off point here. I don't know if talking about a mass con is the perfect example, but it's a good place to start. Let's talk about this. A mass confrontation has happened on your pitch on days, or let's say that's in the regular run of play. Someone got injured. It just happens. Sometimes people break an ankle, sometimes people break a wrist. What is the liability that a referee has on that pitch? The legal liability or something like that occurring, whether it's two teams fighting or someone. There's a challenge that comes in and someone breaks an ankle or a leg or something like that. What's our liability?
Speaker 2:out there. As an attorney, I'm trained to say that there's always liability, some way, somehow. Okay, but I want I do want to make this point across to every sports official out there as long as you do what you're supposed to do, what a reasonable official referee who knows the laws of the game is supposed to do, you're going to be okay. Okay, because liability means that you have the responsibility, that it was your fault, that you caused it and these mass confrontations, these injuries, we didn't cause them as referees, but there are things that we should do to attempt to prevent them or to not be put in that position. And it starts off from the moment you get to the field. And this is going to go back to your first party certification course where they said we need to inspect the field, you need to check the nets, you need to check the goalposts, make sure that the posts are anchored down. It's because if you don't do that, then if something were to happen, someone might come back and say, had the referee done this, then this would have not happened. And I think the most common one is the actual goalpost themselves, especially in youth games. So we've seen them when they roll out these goals out to the field. They don't put sandbags, they don't put any type of anchor and we fail to inspect and that thing just tips over. It's going to hit probably an 8, 9, 10-year-old child and there's going to be issues arising out of that. Now would I say that the referee is directly responsible for that, not a hundred percent.
Speaker 2:There could be an argument made that they are right, but obviously the home field has to have their own marshal, has to have their own people that are setting up these fields. But it doesn't negate the fact that part of our protocol as sports officials was to inspect the field and if we fail to inspect it, we fail to secure these goals, we fail to enforce the laws of the game. Then it could bring some sort of question to us. But I don't want anybody out there to think, oh my God, if I don't do this I'm going to get sued.
Speaker 2:It's not to that point. Okay at all. But it is important for us to follow the laws of the game and to do those pregame inspections and to follow the protocols to other simple things to not allow players to wear jewelry when they're not supposed to be wearing jewelry. All those things are going to be something that we can do as sports officials to, as you put it right, to reduce the liability or we and prevent issues from arising, yeah, so let's talk a little bit more about the jewelry, Cause it is such a common conversation that gets had literally every single week.
Speaker 1:I have to remind people, please, you can't have jewelry on the pitch, You're not playing. If you do have a nose ring or earring, please take it out. And there's always someone who's yeah, I can't take it out. So let's talk through this just real briefly here. Let's say someone you don't address it pre-match Someone comes onto the pitch, has earrings in and somehow someone's finger gets caught in an earring and pulls the earring out of the ear. Or someone goes head-to-head and cuts themselves open on someone's earring. Is again the referee potentially liable for an injury that happens from?
Speaker 2:that, first and foremost, that were to happen and it's a common thing, especially the referee you're. For those of you that are trying to rise up, trying to go through the ranks and get some programs, that number one is can potentially be a career killer for you, because you're supposed to be there and enforce the game. Is there liability? No, there could be. I never want to say no. You don't know how that person is going to react, right, the one that got injured or damaged. You don't know if they're going to sue you. If they get an attorney, are they going to position that legal theory? Oh, this wouldn't happen had the referee enforced the protocols or done his job. Could be made. I haven't seen it be made. To be honest with you, I think it's a very, it's a far reach, but why would you want to leave yourself exposed to that? So a simple, simple inspection, a simple enforcement of the rules, that can prevent all this from happening.
Speaker 2:And I understand that sometimes it's difficult because I've been there, I've seen them. They tape it up or they say, oh, I just got it yesterday, I can't take it off. We've heard, we've all heard, those stories. It's you got. You have a job to do as a referee and if they want to play, then they know what they need to do. I never would argue with that. I said, look, I understand, you just got it yesterday. It's very unfortunate, but today you can't play. So you have a decision to make, right, do you need to sit down and rest the piercing or are you going to take that off and come and play? And I got to tell you a hundred percent of the time they would always magically be able to take it off and game on Right, always, every time.
Speaker 1:Hey, I'm sorry you can't be on the field today with that end. It's like somehow magically comes out All right. I got two more questions on the liability side and because I know that you're dealing with some actually pending litigation on assaults and I'm sure you're probably familiar with existing case law, has there ever been existing case law, have there been lawsuits that have been successful or whatever, where sometimes I'll see, especially on the parent chat boards, you'll see a parent say something to the effect of the referee let the game get out of control and the player got injured because the referee was not calling fouls or something like that. Has that ever been successful in suing a?
Speaker 2:referee. Listen, I practiced a lot in Florida, so I'm going to tell you, in Florida I haven't seen it, but if anybody's seen it someplace, I would love to. I would love to read that case over. I think that is the most. Excuse me for being so harsh with my words, but it's the most ridiculous argument. And and I tell you that is because which one of us is actually going out there, sports officials, to allow a game to get out of control or with the intention for someone to get injured or something negative to happen? I have yet to meet a fellow referee, a sports official. That's what their main goal is when they put on that uniform and blow that whistle. And I would argue the contrary right, it's a passion. What we do and what we're trying to do is keep everybody safe. What happens is I'm sure we'll get into it we have some bad apples that sit on the sideline and just are making this about them, their child, their daughter, and not about the game itself, and it's unfortunate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now, people always, of course, overreact when it's their kid gets injured. It's a contact, it's a collegiate sport. Sometimes injuries happen. So now I'm going to start transitioning here to insurance and liability and coverages, specifically as a referee. When we sign up to be a referee and again, your expertise is in the state of Florida, I'm in the state of Georgia, but we're all part of US soccer Do referees have insurance coverage in case someone were to try and come after us, even if it's a frivolous lawsuit? Do we have insurance coverage, as when we sign up to be referees?
Speaker 2:So it's going to depend on a state by state basis. So one of the big things that we need to understand as referees is that we're categorized as independent contractors, so they're basically hiring us on that temporary basis to do X amount of games or just to do that game itself. So there are avenues, yes, where, if you have to read your state association agreement when you pay your dues, to see if there's any type of medical insurance that is included in case you get injured, and also there are other avenues where, if something were to happen to you, that you can pursue to cover the damages that occur, such as medical bills, the most common one, right Lost wages, because at times we've seen some of my clients, referees, who have been victims of the assault. It's been so severe that they can't go to work or any of that and so there's other avenues that we're pursuing to make sure that the sports officials are being compensated appropriately If something negative were to happen to them while they are in the course and scope of officiating a game.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about this. The specific example regarding a referee assault so that's actually how you and I started having a conversation is there was a young gentleman in Southern California, orange County area, who was doing a UPSL match and shows a second yellow card to someone who completely loses their mind and immediately strikes this referee in the face Can we talk a little bit about. He had a broken orbital bone in his face. He had a detached retina. He had very serious medical issues ambulance ride, hospital x-rays. We know how outrageously expensive that stuff is. I know he does have a lawyer now. But for those who I've never been assaulted like that, what is the process? What should we be thinking about? How to make sure that we get covered, that we get restitution for lost hours, lost wages, the mental anguish that would come from that. Where do we begin on this Help?
Speaker 2:me understand. So let's begin simply with when you're there, when something like that happens to you, first make sure your safety has to be paramount. Do not leave yourself or place yourself in a position where you feel that is going to be a dangerous one for you. Now, if it gets to the point where it got to with this referee which, by the way, I'd like to take just a quick second to be serious with me, to extend my condolences to him it's really saddening to me and it aggravates me to see this type of thing, and it's why I have a passion of representing these officials that get assaulted, and I'll tell you my motto a little bit later. But I just want to tell him that I hope that this does not keep him off the pitch. I hope that he recovers well and that he continues to do this beautiful activity that we do, which is a passion for all of us. But the number one thing, once you're in safety, going back to the topic, is you need to call the police. There has to be a police report, and I'm making an emphasis on this because so many sports officials that I speak to who not call the police and they think that they need to that someone needs to put their hands on them, to call the police, that somebody needs to basically give them a good beating. We're not having a better way to say it. No, no. The moment that you feel threatened, the moment that there's assault against you, that means that you are in fear of some sort of imminent danger happening to you. That's when you need to call the authorities and you need to document this. When I ask these sports officials why they don't document because I get the phone calls, david, I get them right after the games. When it happens and I hear it, like this team did that they followed me to my car. They didn't let me leave the gates, they were pushing me, they all corralled me, and the first thing I ask is did you call the police? No, I didn't. Why? I don't want to create an issue with the league, or I don't want to create an issue with my assigner, or I want to make sure that I'm getting games, and these are things that the officials are concerned about, and I'm an assigner myself, but I wasn't an assigner. I hung that up last year.
Speaker 2:The amount of games that you're getting is dependent on you not reporting something that makes you feel unsafe or you being susceptible or allowing for yourself to be placed in danger, then you don't need to be there. You don't need to be there. And quite frankly and I'll say this very frank any assigner that is holding that against you. We need to get rid of them, period.
Speaker 2:Because the referee itself, again that assigner has they actually have liability. If they know that they're putting you in a position where you're going to be once again where your life's going to be at risk, where you're going to be at the risk of getting assaulted, then they are recklessly knowing what they're doing and they have a potential lawsuit against them as well. I would explore that If I have a sports official calling me telling me that. I said I would explore that Same thing with the league and we'll get more into that. But to get back to your question about what the process you call the police, you document, you get a report going on, then you do your supplemental, you report it to the actual, to the state, you report it to US soccer it has to escalate to that level but you get that done and you do it with detail.
Speaker 1:I want. I want to stop right there, cause this is the a very big question that I get is who do I tell? Because I have to tell you, when I have a red card report for some of my assigners and they don't have, they're not using a process where it's a signing platform that has reports easily. I say, hey, I had to toss a parent today for being belligerent on the sidelines. Like, all right, just send me an email to the assigner and that's it. And I've gotten this from referees. I don't even know where to go. Who should I tell this to? I had someone yell this racist thing at me. I had someone push me today or whatever. So let's talk through that. You, you talked about your state. You talked about US soccer. Like, where do you even begin to start this process of making the critical organizing bodies aware?
Speaker 2:Look, I hear you and I'm also familiar with that Just send me an email to the assigner. There shouldn't be no email. There should be a supplemental report period. Okay, document it. And so, yeah, I'll send you an email, but I'm going to attach my supplemental to it. And that assigner has the responsibility to go back and address that with the league. If it's something that's recurring, that assigner has a responsibility to also report it up to the associations that are sanctioning these leagues. And that's on the sanction side. On the unsanctioned side, obviously it's a little bit colder, right, it's a little bit less formal, but still the documentation needs to be there. So, to answer your question, where do you start? Get a supplemental written up. I don't care if you toss 10 parents, 15 parents. Get it in there, get it in writing, send it to the assigner.
Speaker 2:If your assigner is not responding in an appropriate manner and is not doing something to address that situation, then I believe I know not.
Speaker 2:I believe every state has a state referee assigner or some type of assigner that's in a leadership role. You escalate it and I'm telling you again from experience I think I forgot to mention this, but I brought it up in passing I've been assigning for a couple of years now. As assigners, our job is to get the contract with the leagues that are hiring the officials and to negotiate for your rights as a sports officials Not only your pay, but also the discipline process Right? How do we keep the sports officials safe? What can we do to make sure that they can do their job Authority, respect and safety, and if your assigner is not doing that, then find a new one. That's simple as that, right? Because those are the type of assigners that don't need to be in this business. If they're just there to collect the money and not protect for the people that are putting their cleats there on the pitch, then they need to go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Agreed. So let's talk about now. If a referee has been assaulted, okay, and again it's serious and we're not talking. I mean, any assault or threat to one's safety is serious, but let's say someone's actually been physically injured and they've got medical bills and they've got potentially lost time and there's trauma. Let's be honest you get assaulted, there's trauma. Is there any legal recourse? And I'm talking about, from a litigation perspective, potentially seek compensation for that and who would go after in that scenario.
Speaker 2:So, yes, there's legal recourse 100%. So I'm going to need to understand. There's two aspects to this the criminal act to assault a referee and, as a matter of fact, in the state of Florida itself it's a felony. So I don't want to get legal here. I don't want to drop statutes, but you guys can look it up Florida Statute 784.08. It's very simple Any assault or battery on a sports official that's in the course of scope of a fish eating game, it gets bumped up. So it's a third degree felony.
Speaker 2:That's why the importance of a police report, my referees that know me very well to reach out to me and let me know, because I advocate with the state attorney to make sure that those acts are being prosecuted as felonies and not misdemeanors. I just had one right now, about a month ago, where it was unfortunate but three a father and two of his sons over 18, both of them assaulted a sports official. They literally to the point where the referee was knocked out unconscious on the floor. Three against one. Not only is that a cowardly act, but it's a crime. Now they did get arrested and they were taken to jail that night. What? And I followed the case. What I realized was that the state attorney prosecuted this as a misdemeanor assault and battery and I immediately I start bombarding the state attorney with emails, phone calls, and I start asking why this is not a misdemeanor, this is a felony.
Speaker 2:And the reason why that's important is because until people on this pitch understand the consequences of their actions and know that we're following through with these consequences, they're going to continue to behave and act in this manner. It's the reason why I don't want to be drastic, but why don't we see people out there every single time, jumping out of the cars and in the middle of road rage, beating up each other? Right, they know they're going to get arrested, they know that they're going to spend the day in jail, they know that's going to be a crime. And the same thing needs to happen, with all due respect to every parent, and including myself, because I'm one of them is we need to understand that there's going to be consequences to our acting. When we're acting wild on a pitch, especially on these youth games which is, by the way, that's to me so baffling, which is the wildest ones are the younger they get, the wilder the parents are. The older they get, the more calm things are, but there has to be consequences.
Speaker 2:So, from a criminal side, that person that's committed an assault or battery on a sports official has to face that. Then, from the civil side and that's one person suing another person you're going to have remedies as well, where you're going to be able to sue the entities that are responsible for placing you in that position to recover for your medical bills, your lost wages, because you probably can't, if you're really injured, you probably won't officiate for quite some time. This might even impact you in your own personal profession, cause I have these referees that have sued on their behalf. They've been injured to the point where they can't work. It's it's affecting their nine to five.
Speaker 2:Okay, now the question is who are those people that you see? Right, who are those people? And it's everybody that is involved in putting that game together, period. And I go after and I've gone after.
Speaker 2:I'm going after the leagues, I'm going after the clubs, I'm going after the county at times, because, to me, if the county or the park itself knows you have a league, that is typically there, there's fights, that there's a wild behavior going on in the settings, listen, this is very obvious. It's not something that's conceived right. You can walk through a park and you can see that there's little Jimmy's dad cursing up a storm at a nine-year-old, 10-year-old game, telling how he's going to get the referee after the game or that he's going to wait for him in the parking lot. So the park should know that this type of behavior is going. They should be doing something about it.
Speaker 2:Then it goes down to the league itself. The league should know that this is going on and they should be doing something about it. It's already to a point where it's foreseeable, right. And then it goes down to the club itself. The club should know itself as well. The coach is there, he's seen it. They have a responsibility and they have a duty to everybody, not just to the sports official, to everybody on that field, to make sure that we are in a safe environment.
Speaker 1:A thousand percent agree and this is why I always preach document, even if it hasn't gotten to the point of an assault that we still should be still carding coaches who are being aggressive. There's obviously dissent, but certainly when it goes beyond that and if it's offensive, insulting and abusive language, I'm a big believer that it starts with words and then come actions. There's rarely a time when it's just someone immediately hits out of nowhere. It happens and it's scary and it's awful, but usually it starts with words, with chirping and with insults and all that type of stuff, and then it becomes something.
Speaker 1:But if we are dismissing people because they are acting inappropriately on the sidelines and we're doing that consistently we have a paper trail, referees are establishing a pattern of behavior and the club or the league association needs to take action. They need to know that if you do not address this, you will be held liable for this. And I think we all could say here there are a few leagues in particular that we all know have a history and a pattern for having extremely aggressive behavior or referee assault. And I think now we're asking hey, it's not enough to just say hey, you guys should address this. You have to go through the legal process and have these lawsuits for change to actually occur suits for change to actually occur.
Speaker 2:David, I think that's the biggest thing that's changed. You've already seen my style and how straightforward I am. But I say very frank I'm done with just hoping or thinking that something's being done with the supplemental reports and I tell my fellow officials you call me, we take the legal action or call the attorney from your state, and I encourage anybody else to call me I'll put you in contact with somebody that these are not the biggest cases. These are not attorneys are not out there salivating for this type of stuff. But I'm sure I'm not the only referee slash attorney out there in the country. And so for me, I take it because I'm advocating on behalf of every single referee out there. And at this point now, what I'm doing is I'm making their actions, I'm making it hurt in their pockets because that's the only way that this thing's going to stop. And I'll tell you a quick story Two of my biggest cases assault, traumatic brain injury so these things can get serious right, and one of them is still ongoing litigation, but the other one ever since we took action and we sued these entities, amazingly now there's off-duty police officers there all the time, every time that there's a game and that there's a tournament.
Speaker 2:It makes a difference. So why couldn't we do this before? Why do we have to? Why do these entities have to wait for something like this to happen Someone getting injured, a family being impacted before we're taking this action? And that's my goal, because I've had the higher ups from SYS and I'm we'll keep it at that level from FISA, from FYSA, from US Soccer. They've called me, they've told me Andres, why are you suing these clubs? Why are you suing these parks? This is going to make it more difficult for us to get fields or for us to put to give young children an opportunity to play soccer.
Speaker 2:And my favorite one was we're a family, like why are you hurting? We're a family, I agree, but where's my family when three guys beating on me and I'm ending up with a traumatic brain injury? Where's my family when I can't work for two, three months injury? Where's my family when I can't work for two, three months? And because what I thought was going to be a regular Sunday and I'm going to go make my $60 to $100 for game, turned out to impact me and it's costing me now my ability to put food on the table for my family right, and the reason and my answer is very simple. The reason why is because the moment that you guys understand that there's going to be legal financial consequences, then you're going to start doing what needs to be done to attempt or try to prevent these assaults from happening. And it's such a simple thing, just like putting again an off-duty police officer on watch. Because what does that cost? $60 to $100 an hour.
Speaker 2:Listen, I think I put the comment here on your Instagram is we need to understand something. These are for-profit institutions. You've seen it now with the influx of foreigners coming to play in the MLS, and what is the comment? They can't believe how expensive it is to play soccer in this country, right? So these entities are making money and this is a no way. I don't want any of these clubs to think I'm taking an aim at anything.
Speaker 2:I'm not but there's a cost to doing business. I'm a business person myself. I've owned businesses in in for years. I've been in the business side for about over over 15, 16 years. There's a cost of doing business and if the and if that cost is to add security or do something to make everybody feel safe, then that needs to be incorporated, period Because it's going to be far, much more expensive. If you don't do anything, you're putting the money in your pocket and then, all of a sudden, when things like this happen what we unfortunately saw on your post with the referee now here comes an attorney, sues you and it's going to cost you a couple hundred grand.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I think it's a great point. I think leagues yes, we are independent contractors and they view us as an externality that our safety is someone else's problem, our training is someone else's problem, our development is someone else's problem, and it can't be like that. We're all in it together and it's and sometimes a lawsuit has to remind people hey, we are all in this together and you're liable for the behavior of the players and the spectators, the coaches that are surrounding this game we are all there the referees too.
Speaker 2:My goal is to have these, even these fields that are renting out. My goal is for them to turn around to the clubs that want to rent the field and say, yeah, we'll rent it to you, we'll give you the tournament We'll give you, but you need to have security Period. That's it, and I guarantee you that's not going to bankrupt any club out there. And if you think about it, what? $100 an hour? There's 22 players on the field. It apparent that's going to cost them. What's happening is that they don't want to pay something that they deem as an unnecessary expense. It's not unnecessary, it's necessary and it needs to happen. And they're going to start doing that once they start feeling it in their pocket.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know there are specifically tournaments around the country now that have gotten such unbelievable reputations for being very dangerous, specifically for referees. Surf Cup in San Diego is a classic now. I got so many reports around that event from referees who have been assaulted there, from the parents and the players, who are just absolutely aghast and just like I can't believe that they'd allow an event to go on like this without having proper security in attendance, because one security official could probably patrol 10 fields potentially. At least You're hoping that nothing happens, but if something does start getting heated, you want someone there who could escort someone off the property and make sure those referees stay safe.
Speaker 2:So, in the legal world, what you just stated is exactly what I see in every one of my cases that I pick up with referee assault is it's foreseeable that something like this is going to happen? Okay, Because you just said it right. You, these leagues, they know, with these supplementals, they know how many times they've kicked out parents, they know how many times they've had to escort referees off the field or even players. They know how many they have this. That's why the documentation creates that, and so, if they have this information, the question now becomes is did you know that something like this could have happened With the documentation? Yes, or at least they should have known. Now, the next question is did you do something about it? And that's where you have a problem is when they don't do anything about it. Now again, this is not a bashing session on my end for any of these clubs or tournaments, because there's so many of them and I would say the majority that do it. Well, that do it. They're doing an amazing job. They're putting a great product and a great service out there for our youth soccer and our both soccer amateurs as well, but all it takes is one bad apple one bad apple to just give these types of consequences that we don't want to be looking again.
Speaker 2:Going back to the sports official that you just showed recently on your IG Do we really have to have to let it get there? Just that one act alone is so disgusting, it's so unfortunate, and to me, it's what my 14 year old I wanted to be a referee but do I want to put him in a position like that? Think about that. And that's another sad part. I've seen some of these young referees working the line and these spectators. They're going into a 14, 15 year old. It's almost. Would you allow somebody to talk to your son like that? And so these are the things that we need to keep. We need to keep informed.
Speaker 2:But, David, look, the biggest message is this I don't want these sports officials or fellow referees to feel like they need to be quiet or hide any of this. Those days need to be long gone already. Your career or your desire to ascend, or your desire to continue working the league should not be dependent on how quiet or how much conformity or how I guess for lack of a better word how less troublesome you are when you're trying to enforce the laws of the game and also when you're trying to create a safe environment. There shouldn't be any retribution. There shouldn't be any retaliation, and if there is, I encourage you to give us a call, Give your local attorney a call, because there's actions that we can take.
Speaker 1:If you are the referee being threatened or assaulted, you are not the problem. Exactly, I agree, because every time a referee does get assaulted or get threatened, there's always players who are like hey, don't call the cops, yo, we don't need to call the cops or anything like that. Call the cops Of course it's not okay.
Speaker 2:And, david, look, we're probably going to get the comments on this as well. It's oh, but what do you mean? The referee wasn't the problem.
Speaker 2:He was calling a bad game, he missed so many fouls, he let it get out of control. This is simple. First of all, I don't care how with all due respect to all referees I don't care how bad of a referee you are. I don't care how great of a referee you are Okay, there's no call, no game that entitles somebody out there to put their hands on you or to make you feel like your life is at risk. Period I don't care how bad the call is Doesn't exist. Period no, pass, it's a crime. There's no, it's very black and white. It is a crime.
Speaker 2:I have not ever seen. I told you I do a little criminal defense as well. I've never seen a person in cuffs in front of a judge. Tell them, judge, I committed that crime, but that's because somebody did this to me. And the judge say oh, that's okay, son, go home. Okay, that doesn't happen, all right. So if you're a great, if you're a great, if you're a good referee, this is happening to you. Okay, continue to work on your game. If you're a bad referee and that this is happening to you, you don't deserve any type of damages to yourself. Maybe it'd be good to go review your game, see what you could have done better. You know, try to improve. That's fine, but it doesn't mean that you have to accept this level of behavior.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's it's a wonderful point on today. I really do appreciate it. Is there one last question for you, and then we'll wrap up here Is there any like advice that you would give to referees to try and maybe protect themselves on the pitch from lawsuits or for protect liability, anything at all? Is there any advice that referees need to be taking to make sure that they're they're not liable for potential lawsuits or litigation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, look for absolutely. So. First and foremost, follow the laws of the game, work with your crew, do the small things. That's what matters, right, do? That pregame is so important. And I know like people are saying, oh, here we go again with the pregame. That pregame is so important.
Speaker 2:Okay, you guys need to communicate, you need to do the field inspection, you need to do the player inspection, because all these things, these big problems or these matches getting out of hand a lot of it can be can be anticipated and can be dealt with beforehand, before things get heated. Because the moment you blow that whistle and those 90 minutes start rolling listen, things get hot and I think some of us who enjoy being in the middle and enjoy that rush, we enjoy that. We enjoy sometimes these games that are getting very intense. But when things get hot, you want to be able to say, okay, I did everything that I had to do beforehand to try to deescalate anything that can get out of hand here, because if you don't, then it's going to blow up. It can blow up in your face. Just do the small things and do them right. Okay, so that way you have a nice 90 minutes, this game in and be able to get back in your car and say, whew, that was fun, I love that, andres.
Speaker 1:Sir, thank you so much for joining us today on the pod. I learned a lot and I think our listeners will really appreciate this. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:No, thank you for having me. I get, like I told you again, big fan love what you're doing out there. Keep doing it, david. It's. I think the more exposure we give it, the more that we we let everybody know that this is an ongoing issue, I think, the more we're going to see change, okay, so keep doing what you're doing, big fan man. So love, keep it up.
Speaker 1:I love it. Hey guys, I hope everyone enjoyed today's pod. We do live in a society where sometimes bad things happen and it's important to know the steps to take when they do. And from Andres to me, please report it. Okay, if you've been assaulted, call the police, file a police report, file a supplemental report. We cannot let these things go and not be recorded and documented and, yes, sometimes even filing a lawsuit if you've experienced damages or loss, because sometimes that creates the change that needs to take place. So please do it. Last, note out, guys, please, if you love the podcast, you love the channels, please visit the refs. Need love to online store. Check out the referee socks. They are so cool and so much fun. I designed them for you. You will not find them anywhere else. They are my own creation. Everything gets poured back into making this channel possible. I wish you all the best and I hope your next match is red card free.