REFS NEED LOVE TOO
An honest perspective from the 3rd team on the pitch... the referees. Through humor, analysis and education, we are slowly changing how people view referees and officials in all sports. We care and have a love for the game as much as any player or coach. Sometimes even more. Youth soccer (proper football) is a multi-billion $ industry in the US. Tremendous money is spent on players, competitions, travel etc., but almost nothing spent on developing the next generation of referees. I hope that this Podcast inspires, educates and humanizes the next generation of referees for their own development and appreciation from the players, coaches and spectators they need to work alongside.
REFS NEED LOVE TOO
Emergency POD: Brian Barlow from Offside on the Updated US Soccer Referee Abuse Policy
What constitutes abuse in the realm of US Soccer? Join us for a deep dive into the pressing issue of referee abuse with Brian Barlow, the force behind the Offside page on Facebook, as we navigate the new policy spearheaded by Kari Seitz, VP of Referees for US Soccer. With a focus on clarifying and categorizing abusive behavior, the policy aims to establish a uniform approach across the nation. As Brian sheds light on emerging respect at national tournaments, we confront the ongoing challenge of underreporting incidents and the persistent issues faced at the grassroots level, where parental and coach misconduct still cast a shadow.
This episode unpacks the updated protocols designed to empower referees through a clear understanding of sanctionable behaviors, from verbal taunting to cyberbullying and physical contact. We discuss the introduction of stringent penalties for repeat offenders and the particularly tough stance on offenses against minor referees. By equipping referees with these decisive tools, US Soccer demonstrates a strong commitment to protecting young officials and fostering respect.
Our conversation extends into the governance challenges of youth soccer, particularly the role of parents in shaping the game-day experience. We propose stricter measures, including codes of conduct and suspensions, to address parental misconduct. As we champion widespread education and dialogue across the soccer community, our hope is for sustained change. Share your experiences and let's work together to cultivate a culture of respect on and off the field.
Emergency pod emergency pod that's right. Us Soccer has just released a little bit of a preview of the referee abuse policy. That's right. This is a document from US Soccer that has lived in the past but has really been brought to life through a number of different mediums, led by Carrie Seitz, the VP of Referees for US Soccer, who is going to be a guest on the podcast in the next couple of weeks as we get closer to the full release of the referee abuse policy. But in advance of that, I hopped on with Brian Barlow, the head of the Offside page on Facebook, a national Nassau referee, longtime referee, mentor and we got talking about what this policy is, what this policy isn't, what it covers, but what's really going to need to change for this actually to take effect and have an impact and change the culture of soccer here in America. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. It's pretty quick, maybe about 20, 30 minutes or so. Let me know your feedback. Looking forward to talking with you again soon. Looking forward to talking with you again soon.
Speaker 2:Dave Garrison, I'm from TikTok, I'm Barlow, you know me from Offside. And Dave, big news coming down from, by the way. I hope you're doing well. It's been a while since I've been online together. I know you and I have traveled quite a bit, country and international, doing what we do. And today, big news Actually, this came out yesterday, doing what we do. And today, big news Actually, this came out yesterday Big news from the United States Soccer Federation in regards to referee abuse. And it's about damn time.
Speaker 1:I think the news is that it's new and updated. So there's always been, from what I understand, a referee abuse policy, but it wasn't well communicated, it didn't have, it wasn't easy to disseminate, to read, and also the punishments have been updated. The classifications have been updated to make it really easy to understand and hopefully, something that we can get nationwide enforcement on. That is what's new and very excited about that.
Speaker 2:And as I posted the screenshot and we'll go through these with everybody in just a few moments but I posted the screenshot of the punishment for referee abuse, referee assault they're two different things and then, of course, someone posted immediately which I thought was a very validated post. Hey, that's great in book and in words, but it's the actionable. Are we really going to take a strong stance on this? And what's your sense? I know you've probably got some intel into this. What's your sense stance on this and what's your sense? I know you've probably got some intel into this. What's your sense? Is this just going to be word service or are we going to start dropping the hammer?
Speaker 1:Let's go back before the hammer. So I think one of the big problems in addressing referee abuse or assault is that very little of it actually gets reported. I can tell you so many times I've been to matches and watched referees be pretty much humiliated in the middle of the pitch, be screamed at, be threatened, be intimidated, and no red cards were shown, no one was dismissed and I'm sure there was no supplemental report to the state referee committee so that they could even take a report so that something could be documented. So I am, brian, I know you do a lot of referee coaching. From your perspective, how can we start to get referees to start to say enough is enough and start actually reporting some of this behavior so we can get to the point where there might be enforcement? But I think the reporting and the documentation is step one and I don't see it happening.
Speaker 2:I've been preaching full tilt for two years now take out the trash.
Speaker 2:And until our fellow referees are, and the top level referees at the highest level, until they start taking out the trash, this is always going to be word service right.
Speaker 2:But I think listen, Dave, I actually come with good news in 2025. And I said this on my live for five feed a couple of days ago that I try to do once a week and that is I'm seeing. I'm seeing progress Like I'm seeing people keep their mouth shut on the sideline. I'm seeing an atmosphere and a culture of development and some of these big national tournaments that I'm going to and I've been involved in two of them so far in 2025, one in excuse me, three of them one in St Louis, one in Arizona, one, and I'm getting ready to go to another one in Las Vegas but these atmosphere that we've, that they've created in some of these bigger high-end leagues, is creating a culture of development, and what I mean by that is everyone's shutting up and the coaches are coaching and the players are playing and the referees are reffing and we're all making mistakes and we're all doing good and we're all developing and damn it, that's all I've ever wanted.
Speaker 1:I have to tell you that is good news. Maybe something has changed out there, because the last major tournament I did it was an ECNL tournament two years ago here in Atlanta, like mentor, instructor for the day, for referees at the 7am meeting said keep your eyes open and keep your ears shut, essentially not to try and deal with any of the dissent that might be coming from the sideline or the coaches, because I guess they didn't want to deal with it. It was just one thing they didn't want to concern themselves with was parent or coach or behavior, and so I do hope that is changing. If that is changing out there, that's fantastic.
Speaker 1:Now we all know that, beyond these national events at MLS Next, where these kids might be fearful and the parents might be fearful of getting kicked off that team because it is by the top of what it might be or ECNL, of getting kicked off that team because it is by the top of what it might be or ECNL, when you get beyond those very well-trained coaches where I would say 90% of the grassroots youth soccer is being played out there. I don't know that they're having that kind of instruction. I hope they are, but I still think it's going to come down to us as a community of referees to decide to where should the line be drawn and then, once we draw that line, to take action upon it. Then, once we take action, to document it and follow it all the way through. I would love to see some training to help our referees feel confident, first off recognizing what abuse is and then how to take action upon it once it occurs.
Speaker 2:Listen, they've given us the fuel now.
Speaker 1:I know.
Speaker 2:They've given us the fuel, like listen, if we ever want to change the landscape and the culture of this thing that is so toxic to youth sports. They'd given us the tools, and so let's just break it down. And, dave, you've sent me quite a bit of ammo this morning in regards to what, and I feel I don't have as much information as you do. But let's just start with this. Do you even know what the rules are? How many officials do you think are going to sanction that? But it's sanctionable, and I know. It's the depth, it's the loudness. Is it public? Is it provocative? Is it personal? Did you forget your glasses? Sanctionable. What's the other team paying you? What's the other team paying you? Sanctionable. You suck, sanctionable. You're the worst ref we've ever had. Sanctionable. And how many times do we not sanction that? Those are sanctionable.
Speaker 1:Yes, I agree. Now I should say that, in use of this policy, us soccer is not saying, hey, you can't use your tools to manage a game. Okay, because, as we all know, in some, depending on the situation, if it's like adult, amateur and it's not one of these, that's really doing bias or something of that nature. But you do have the opportunity if you still want to manage through something with a caution or a yellow card as opposed to red card. Now, again, the the you suck. Okay, cause that was one of the things in dismissive language that was thrown out there. Okay, if that's like a 22, 23 year old guy and and you're able to just card him and move on with the game, is fine.
Speaker 1:But if it's a coach yelling at a 14 year old referee, okay, and there's a massive power imbalance there, dynamic, or a player publicly screaming you're the worst ref we've ever had, yeah, that should be a red card. We should be sending people off for that. There should be a report for that. Absolutely, because it's aggressive, it's dismissive, it's insulting, it's offensive and it's definitely going to be calling into our ability to have credibility and match control. Forrelease of the updated referee abuse policy. Is the policy is going to go not just with a very dry 50 page document that's painful to read through every single one of these. So you're talking specifically about level one, non-physical abuse, which is about verbal taunting.
Speaker 2:Okay speech of justice, belittling, insinuating, taunting behavior. That's level one.
Speaker 1:That's right and that's the lowest, yeah, but that is definitely red card offenses, certainly as a referee as they see fit. And we have to teach people the difference between what's just atmosphere at a match and a random emotional outburst when someone's upset about a call to something that someone is specifically calling out, that referee, it is public, it is offensive again and it's all of those things. It is an insult, it's designed to belittle them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a red card offense Aggressive, attacking, derogatory I love this word right here Cyber bullying this is a thing now. Cyberbullying, this is a thing now. This is a thing where the game happens and fans and coaches think that they have the right to go online and harass and bully the officials. I love that. Cyberbullying is in there. Doxing or threatening Physical violence, doxing or threatening violence that's level three minimum six game suspension Six to 24 months, depending on the level. Listen, they're dropping the hammer.
Speaker 2:Offensive and discriminatory acts 10, minimum of 10 games time 12 to 24 months suspension. And these are for non-physical offenses. And then we go into physical offenses minor three game minimum one to six months. Sanction Pushing, grabbing, pulling, squeezing, pinching, lightly slapping that's a thing. That's a thing, yes. Use of object in a non-striking manner or physical property damage Minimum games 10, six to 24 months of time off. And then hitting, punching, elbowing, kicking, biting the fact that we have to put biting, which is which is? You know why? It's in there? Because it's happened Someone has bit a referee 12 months to lifetime ban.
Speaker 2:What I'm seeing on this, dave, is I'm seeing the cry that you have in person in some of these clubs and leagues and with people of influence. We finally have met a group that can actually change with the United States Soccer Federation. They can change the dynamic that we have been so passionate about by saying listen, we hear you and if these things continue to happen, we have now given you guys the tool to eliminate this, because these are very uncomfortable, which is something I preach constantly in person and online. We have to start getting really comfortable making people uncomfortable, and these are uncomfortable as fuck.
Speaker 1:Yes, no, absolutely, and I will tell you. You mentioned, like the six to 24 month, the one to six month for the physical acts, the again month. For the physical acts, the again the minimum for a slight, deliberate touching, which is someone like poking someone in the chest or chest pumping them, is a minimum time of one to six months. And you'll notice on the right-hand side of the screen, the slide that I sent you, there are the again minimums, one to six months. But on the right-hand side of the one page, like quick reference guide, there's also additional penalties. Okay, so again, if it's a second time offender, it's double the punishment, If it's a third time offender, lifetime ban.
Speaker 2:I want to make sure that point's made. If you're a consistent offender, it gets worse and you do it more than twice and you're done. This is how important reporting and sanction. First off, sanctioning we have to get comfortable sanctioning what we hear If it falls into the laws of the game and the guidelines in which we sanction soccer. And then we have to get comfortable writing the report and then making sure that we follow through.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the next one down below those offenses, they're two down. It says offenses against a minor are automatically subject to a minor multiplier, resulting in triple punishment. Okay, so if someone taunts a referee, a minor referee, okay, uses that offensive, insulting, belittling language against a minor referee which we uses, that offensive, insulting, belittling language against a minor referee which we all know happens all the time and it's the number one reason why we lose young referees. It is triple. So instead of two games, six games, minimum suspension for that coach or player, okay, or, and I should say, a club official. Now, one thing I should point out on this, and I've gotten a lot of questions about this, because I specifically said the a club official. Now, one thing I should point out on this, and I've gotten a lot of questions about this, because I specifically said the words club official, a coach and a player.
Speaker 1:So US soccer does not register soccer parents. Now, maybe they should, but they don't. They can't control parents and spectators. That is the club's responsibility. So there's been a lot of talk about if this thing happens at a field, what's going to happen, because it's outside of US soccer jurisdiction and so there are some concerns that sometimes these things might happen and they might not fall under their policy, but at least we've laid out, given the structure and the framework, to clubs and the states to communicate to the parents. Here's what it is. These are all the things. These are what these things are. If you do it, you're gone. We're going to back up US soccer's program here and if we find you doing it, you will be suspended six games and not be able to come see your kid play.
Speaker 2:Dave we have spent years asking for this and I feel like we're in the next phase of this. I feel like we're in the next phase of this. I feel like the next phase of this is now educating our referees. I know you dabble mostly in soccer. I'm obviously I'm a soccer referee, but I get to dabble in multiple sports in terms of this platform and stuff. So my focus is now, now that US soccer has given us this is I'm going to focus now on making sure that we teach the referees how to get comfortable pulling out cards. Right now, they're not really comfortable doing that. They don't feel like they have a backing or a support system. And listen, I was in Arizona last weekend and I'm watching from the sideline and I move around the pitch when I'm watching a specific crew and I was in the parent side they have no idea who I am, what I'm doing. They don't know if I'm a referee or if I'm not just as someone with the event.
Speaker 2:And this guy loses it on one of the referees right there at the halfway line. I'm literally five yards behind him and he's that is an absolute yellow card. I'm literally five yards behind him and he's that is an absolute yellow card. I want a yellow card there. That's a yellow card. And loses it on the ref, turns a sideline that's very calm and peaceful, into a. All the focus is on this guy.
Speaker 2:So I simply walked up and I said sir, are you okay? And he looked me up and down a little bit who the hell are you for asking? And I said are you okay? And he goes no, I'm not okay. Why aren't the refs handing out yellow cards?
Speaker 2:And I said, sir, if you look around, no one else is screaming and yelling. I said the players are developing and I don't know if you've noticed, but there's been some bad passes, some bad dribbles. No one's really yelled and I said he may or may not have, I don't know if he did or not, but we're not going to yell at him, just like we're not going to yell at the players. All right, this is a sterile environment. Those referees are developing, just like your players are developing. So I'm going to ask you again are you going to be okay? He goes yeah, I guess he did not want to respond, but the point to that story is, I know that is not our wheelhouse, those aren't the people that we can control or monitor. But now we have tools through the coach that if the coach doesn't monitor that and the sidelines continues to be a ruckus and it happens two or three times and it gets reported two or three times, we now have severe punishment in place. Am I reading that right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, certainly Again, for parents, we've got, we can or for coaches and players and club officials, we've got a framework and a guidance which we should be training parents about, and I would hope that the club would take the same exact framework and apply it to parents. So let's say in this scenario that we had a referee who was yelling something that was offensive and insulting to I'm sorry we had a parent yelling something offensive, insulting at a referee. I would hope that when the referee goes over to the coach and says, hey, that parent needs to be dismissed, I need to get their name and they write it down, they write a a report and they write what's been said and that goes into the supplemental report post-match and goes to the state. I would hope that the club would carry out the same punishment against that parent that it would be if it was a coach or Well, I guess that's where I'm asking you, dave, because if that continues to be a problem, the coach has been sanctioned, not the parent.
Speaker 2:The coach doesn't help. So I guess what I'm saying is they're wording in this Is there something in this new ruling, these new sanctions, where, if that continues to be an offense, or is something like that involved in these new harsh punishments?
Speaker 1:It's a great question. No, sir, I don't believe there's anything inclusive in the policy 541-9 that specifically addresses parents who have been dismissed multiple times or clubs who have had parents dismissed multiple times. I don't believe there's anything in there.
Speaker 2:I think saying is that the coach continues to get sanctioned because of the wildness and the crudeness and the rudeness of the parents, then the coach at some point has to either get control of the parents or he's no longer coaching.
Speaker 1:So that's the question. I don't know if a coach gets sanctioned. Right, I've chucked out parents before. I have zero expectation that a coach is going to get sanctioned. Now I do write a supplemental report when there's some paper trail there, but I have no idea if U S club soccer or U? S youth soccer or my state association is taking any action. I will tell you in every region of the country and this is one of those things when you get together at those big tournaments like for state cup or some national cup or whatnot, and a region, you all know certain clubs certain coaches and certain parents who behave in a certain way and we've thrown out in my time I think I've thrown out five or six parents.
Speaker 1:I think three of them have been from the same club, like half of my parents. We all know I'm going to be reffing this club in a couple of weeks. I'm not going to go in with any preconceived notion or anything, but I'm ready for it when it happens. But I have. We have no idea how this club was in the highest level of youth competition. I won't name it here, protect the innocent here but we know that they've got problems, that their coaches have issues and they get thrown out. Their parents have issues and get thrown out, but I don't see anything negative happening to that club and I think that is definitely an area of weakness or a loophole. Here is again US soccer. In their defense, all they can do is deal with the people within their domain players and coaches. If they are accused or guilty of a certain one of these offenses, they can enforce action. If it's outside of that, it's really up to the league If it's MLS Next or ECNL or US Club Soccer or US Youth Soccer to probably take action against that particular club.
Speaker 2:honestly, I don't know what else to do. What does your gut tell you? Does this change?
Speaker 1:the game. I would love to see the MLS Next, ECNL, US Club Soccer, AYSO, USs youth soccer, take this exact framework and implement in their league and say we are going to apply this to parents as well. It is our prerogative. If you want to register your kid, you're going to sign on to a a code of conduct and it is going to be based on this. And if we catch you guilty of any of these things, such as like one of those where it's like the threatening behavior how many times have we seen referees followed out to their cars, the intentional confrontation or any of that kind of stuff? Or minor touching trying to get word in with a referee or anything of that nature? Or the threat, the threatening language, aggressive language or threat as someone standing up on the sideline and yelling at a referee? I would love to see that parent receive the same type of suspension that a coach or player would. That would be fantastic, but I think it has to. You have to be dealing with the parents who are signing those contracts for those kids.
Speaker 2:This is big news for 2025, for.
Speaker 1:US soccer. It's going to be big news. So just the go forward plan, brian. So the landing page for US soccer for this new policy should be up within the next two weeks. Once that happens, they're going to be organizing webinars with the state referee committees, all of the league officials to communicate the policy, answer questions about referees, all club officials, all everyone within US soccer to be sharing this content out into the world of soccer here in America, because it's going to take all of us Right. Everyone has to know about it. Everyone needs to know what the the expectation is for proper behavior and what the punishments are if someone runs afoul of this new standard and new framework. And I'm excited about it, but I'm also skeptical. Again, we need to report it. We need to make sure that people are enforcing it and if they're not enforcing it, we need to get loud. You can get public about it, because that's the problem, because if we're not enforcing it, then it's not worth the paper or the bits the email was sent in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the tools are there. They've given us the hammer and I guess we now determine if we drop the hammer, if we don't, if we're going to use it.
Speaker 1:That's exactly right If we're going to use it. That's exactly right If we're going to use it, and that's the thing, man. So the big thing that I'll be talking about over the next couple of months, brian is again trying to educate referees on, again, the differences between these things. When you hear it, what action to take, what are the words to use to use it, so that they're not trying to figure it out, I don't know what to say. What could I say? How do I do this? To walk them through it, actually demonstrate it, because we don't do it in referee training. It doesn't happen in the research, that's for sure. We don't prep people for this and so it's yeah. So we got to prepare our referees and then make sure they know how to report.
Speaker 1:I will say, brian, this is something you and I have discussed before. The reporting is still a problem because every state seems to do it a little bit differently. There still is no national database. It's still, that's still an issue. So I'm curious to see how that will pan out. I'm hopeful, but again, I'm not holding my breath. It's going to take years of communication on this and action for anything to really change.
Speaker 2:I want to make sure any referees that are watching this, I want to make sure we still do not determine the punishment. The punishment is still is just outlined in this document. The punishment is still is just outlined in this document. The punishment is outlined. We, as officials, do not determine the punishment. We just know, as officials, that there are certain things there's now in black and white wording and vocabulary indicating what the fines are, what the punishment is, how heavy the hammer is that gets dropped, based on what we report, and integrity in reffing and officiating is reporting the truth.
Speaker 2:We don't make up shit. We don't try to make an emotional decision and think, well, I'll just add this and this on the report. We don't do that. That's a standard practice that I've seen way too often as officials and I want to remind you, officials, as you start traveling the country in 2025, going to these national events you know those big, tall cameras that are up in the sky and they follow the ball. Those tall cameras. They have microphones yes, they do. And where do the officials speak? They speak right under those cameras and we speak candidly and we speak irresponsibly, and I have seen officials be sent home because of the words they use. That didn't validate the situation in an accurate manner. So we have to be smart, we have to officiate with integrity, we have to report with integrity. So remember, you are not determining the punishment. All Dave and I are saying is the punishment is now outlined and it is severe and it is great for us if we use it responsibly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's no excuse for someone to say I didn't know. It's going to be blast far and wide. It's going to be in videos, it's going to be a website, it's going to be emailed, it's going to be social media. It's going to be all over the place and I know US soccer is definitely. How can you be enthusiastic about referee abuse policy? I don't want to say they're enthusiastic about that, but they are definitely feeling good about what they're taking on, how we're going to be communicating it. Again, JT Batson, the CEO of US soccer referee they care, man. They definitely care.
Speaker 2:We've been crying about it, the referees have been crying about it, we've been on every television station, it seems like every program, every newscast, online, social media We've been crying and there's now some meat to this, so I'm thankful. And to whoever was involved I don't know all the players that were involved in this, but I know there's some new leadership in Atlanta and kudos to all of those, anyone and everyone that was involved. Kudos, bravo. This is what the officials need. And now, david, I think, like I said earlier, the next phase is probably just educating the officials to start getting real comfortable, making sure that we hold people professional accountable.
Speaker 1:They are to be professional in their areas and if they are not, there's there's a punishment to be rewarded. I do want to give one big shout out to Carrie sites, who led this effort. She is the new VP of refereeing for us soccer. She started in March of last year. This woman is the most accomplished referee ever for world cups, for Olympics, like. She worked at FIFA for the last seven years before coming to us soccer.
Speaker 1:She is traveling the country nonstop. She's at every single big referee event. I can't even begin to tell you how much she is traveling to be anywhere and everywhere referees need her. She's showing up at grassroots events. She's at the national pro trainings. She is like everywhere and she's so approachable, she's so intelligent, she's so engaged, she's so engaged. But this is definitely was like her number one, or she had three top three projects coming in, but she knew she wanted to do it. She got it done. There's a lot of legalese you got to go through. There's a lot of roadblocks in your way to developing anything new, especially what relates to policy, whatnot. So I just want to say, if you see Carrie sites out there, definitely say thank you to her, shake her hand.
Speaker 2:She's a wonderful person and this is definitely a credit goes to her. Good job, carrie. Dave, good catching up with you, I'm glad. My pleasure sir, I really appreciate you sending this to me and getting me in front of this for the platform of Offside and we have a lot of referees on there, so this is great news. It's a great way to start off 2025. And I appreciate you being on and let's keep on keeping on, my brother.
Speaker 1:Rock on, my friend. I'll talk to you soon, okay, bye-bye, bye. We will be talking more about this referee policy over the next couple of months. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Brian, but just rolling out a policy is not going to change a culture. We've got a lot of work to do people not only as us, as referees, but players, coaches, spectators and the entire referee community. So we'll be talking about this more again. We'd love to hear from you If you've got any thoughts, any feedback, anything at all, any letters. You know that you want to send my way about your experiences referee abuse and how you might be changing it in your community. Please do let me know. Love you lots and I hope your next game is red card free.