REFS NEED LOVE TOO
An honest perspective from the 3rd team on the pitch... the referees. Through humor, analysis and education, we are slowly changing how people view referees and officials in all sports. We care and have a love for the game as much as any player or coach. Sometimes even more. Youth soccer (proper football) is a multi-billion $ industry in the US. Tremendous money is spent on players, competitions, travel etc., but almost nothing spent on developing the next generation of referees. I hope that this Podcast inspires, educates and humanizes the next generation of referees for their own development and appreciation from the players, coaches and spectators they need to work alongside.
REFS NEED LOVE TOO
Understanding Referee Challenges: Empathy, Personal Struggles, and Youth Sports Dynamics
Michael Oliver's controversial red card decision during the Arsenal vs. Wolves match has ignited debates far beyond the pitch, demanding a closer look at the high-stakes world of refereeing. Join us as we unpack the intense scrutiny faced by officials in the English Premier League, emphasizing the importance of empathy and understanding for their challenging roles. We also dive into David Coote's candid revelations about his journey through personal struggles, painting a poignant picture of the human side of refereeing that often goes unseen.
We offer insights and a fresh perspective on the emotional rollercoaster of officiating youth sports while parenting from the sidelines. With a background in rugby, we bring a unique lens to the conversation, highlighting the cultural contrasts in how referees are perceived and underscoring the need for respect and professionalism across all sports.
Explore the intricacies of youth sports dynamics where young referees, coaches, and parents navigate complex situations on and off the field. We delve into specific incidents, emphasizing the pivotal role of constructive communication and patience in fostering a supportive environment. By teaching personal responsibility and encouraging positive parental involvement, we aim to enhance the sports experience for everyone involved, ensuring that both young athletes and referees thrive in their respective roles.
Hello and welcome to the refs need love to podcast a show where we get real raw behind the scenes of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch the referee. Just ask Michael Oliver me on Instagram, on TikTok, and now I'm starting to even take YouTube pretty seriously, where I'm starting to break down my videos into different categories yellow card fouls, red card fouls, indirect free kick offenses, rare calls, all of those things. So definitely check it out on YouTube as well. This week I was interviewed for the Healthy Sports Parents podcast. Let me tell you that's something I'm going to support every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Really love this conversation and I think you will too.
Speaker 1:Before we get into the interview I'm going to share with you, I just have two current events I want to talk about. Let's talk about Michael Oliver Arsenal Wolves last weekend. Yes, I believe I can understand why it was a red card. You've got studs up. Okay, hitting high on the leg, on the side of the leg, you know, above the ankle. With studs. Yes, it rakes down, but it starts up above the ankle. Okay, with some degree of force of someone lunging out into a tackle. Okay, the conditions are there for to be serious foul play in a red card and that's why video system review didn't overturn it, because it wasn't a clear and obvious error and it's easy for us at home to be like you know didn't look like a lot of force. I could understand why. Maybe there wasn't enough there. He's just trying to trip the guy, okay, but it was studs exposed to the side of the leg. That are is the conditions for, you know, a red card for serious foul play.
Speaker 1:And I feel so bad for Michael Oliver. He's getting all of this hatred and vitriol threats to his safety, his family's safety, his kids' safety. I mean it is ridiculous. People are threatening their life. I mean, can we just appreciate how hard of a job that is that he's doing? It is so unbelievably difficult, just like anyone else on the pitch, every game, passes are missed, shots are missed, tackles are missed by other people on that pitch, and it's just part of the game. Referees are going to make mistakes. Okay, not judged by the PGMOL, because they know the conditions and they know why he made the call that he did, but by some independent panel who said no, the call that he did, but by some independent panel who said no, not enough, there we're going to rescind the red card. So that's only going to amp up the hatred towards Michael and I just feel so bad because he is a phenomenal referee objectively a phenomenal referee but all of those refs over in England just get so much hate. I feel so bad for them. Honestly, it's ridiculous. There's no respect for the hard work that they do.
Speaker 1:Second thing, david Coote just came out and did a big interview. Again, he was the referee who was let go by the PGO Moel this past fall for a number of things, specifically some very harsh words that came out recorded by someone years ago about Jurgen Klopp and people in Liverpool. And then also it turns out he got a cocaine problem. That's right. So in this interview it comes out that he's actually gay. Great, I don't care Seriously.
Speaker 1:I mean seriously. If you're still stuck in the stone ages and you care who someone's having sex with in their own bedroom, shame on you. That's your problem, it's not his problem. You know, I wish for everyone you know to be happy in life. If one of my kids is going, great, wonderful, you know, I hope you're happy and you find someone to love and they love you back. I mean, come on, people. He's a good referee. He's a good referee and I feel bad that he felt that he had to hide it and he turned to cocaine to try and mask, you know, whatever situation or whatever things he was dealing with. Um, you know, it's just really, really sad and you know, and now he's lost his job, he's lost his career, he's lost his name, which is the most important thing. Um, and I just really, you know, my heart breaks for him. I feel really, really bad. I know there's a lot of pressure on the referees in the top leagues of the world, specifically in the English premier league, and uh, you know, you know, I, I just they have all of my respect. I know how much they've sacrificed to get where they are and I know how difficult it is to stay where they are and I just wish them all of the love and respect and appreciation for what they do for us. All right, guys, just a quick note from the sponsor before we get started Again.
Speaker 1:Refersports, huge supporter of this podcast and man, I don't understand why more people are not using them again. It's 100, free for assigners to switch them. Refer is spelled r-e-f-r. They support 25 different sports basketball, baseball, hockey and, of course, our soccer. It is the place to go to work with the signing platforms because it is a native mobile app. No more programs that look like it was programmed in Fortran or COBOL back in 1988. It is modern, it is fast, it is user-friendly. My gosh, I hate all these different assigning platforms that all are crap for referees. Maybe they work for the assigners, but they're not working for us as referees. This is a platform that's great for assigners and it's great for referees. Again, check them out online Again. R-e-f-r. Give them a shout. Let them know that. I sent you All right, guys. Now we're going to jump into the Healthy Sports Podcast. I think you guys are really going to enjoy this one. It's specifically oriented to sports parents. Great conversation here. Enjoy. Let me know what you think.
Speaker 2:Youth sports can be really hard, especially if you're wanting to raise your kids in ways that produce healthy adults when they're done playing. Each week on Healthy Sports Parents, we have conversations designed to help you keep your athletes mentally and emotionally healthy. Whether you're just starting out in reg ball or you're traveling every weekend to elite tournaments, we're here to help you strengthen your relationship with your kids through sports. We haven't met. My name is Jonathan Caron and I'm the host of the show Today. We're joined by David Gerson.
Speaker 2:If you're on TikTok or Instagram, you might know David, as refs need love too. He puts out incredible content about soccer to help people understand the art of refereeing. Whether you're a soccer fan or a fan of other sports, you'll appreciate the content that he makes, because he takes the time to explain what he's thinking, what the rules say and how to apply that in high stakes positions. He also has a podcast, a blog and a website by the same name. When I asked him what his goal was for what he does, he said it really comes down to building a common understanding between officials and the players, coaches and spectators involved in the game. So that's why I wanted to have him on the show today. I want you all to get an inside look at what your referees and umpires are experiencing during the game, the training they get, and really just give you a new perspective as you watch your kids play, so that you can understand what the officials are thinking as well. If you're not one of David's 250,000 followers on social already, I'm pretty convinced you'll be following him by the end of today's episode. You can find him at refsneedlove2 on every platform.
Speaker 2:We'll get to the conversation in just a minute, but before we do that, let me hit you with the logistics. If you like the show, please leave us a rating wherever you listen. If you listen on Apple Podcasts, it'd be a huge help if you left us a small review. If you're watching on YouTube, make sure to hit that subscribe button. And last thing, like we always ask, if this episode helps you out in any way or you find it interesting, please share it with a friend. It's the best thing you can do to help us grow the show.
Speaker 2:Now, with all that out of the way, let's go ahead and welcome in David Gerson. Hey David, how are you today? Thanks for joining us. Tell the people hi. Hey, how are you guys?
Speaker 2:So I came across David on TikTok months ago, and so when I was first putting together this, the whole idea for this show, I'm like parents don't understand what the role of the referee is, or the official or whatever it is in the middle of a game, like the stuff I hear as a coach on the sidelines. We'll get into some of that in a minute, but I knew we needed to have a referee's perspective on this show at some point. So I'm hoping this can be a running idea with different referees and officials across the internet, because the perspective of the official if you've never done it is one that most parents have no clue what's going through your head. But before we talk to the referee, I want to talk to dad, and this is my favorite part of starting these shows. Can you tell us a little bit about your kids, what they play and what it's like being a dad on the sideline after being an official for so many years? Absolutely.
Speaker 1:My my getting into being a referee was because my son had played soccer for, at that point, five or six years and then when he was old enough which at that time you only need to be 10 years old to be a referee he wanted to start earning money and be a ref and so I went with him. But my son started playing soccer and all my kids started playing soccer at three. My eldest son I have three kids was the only one who really stuck in and loved soccer and it became a lifelong passion for him, as he's about 20 years old now. My other two kids did soccer for a little while but it wasn't really their thing. But I had a competitive gymnast, competitive cheerleader for my daughter and my son really into more mixed martial arts and parkour type of stuff and ninja stuff. He was actually on the American Ninja Warrior TV show as a matter of fact, but, yeah, very competitive.
Speaker 1:So I've been a parent who has been at state cup finals and won, and state cup finals and lost, and high school state finals and won, and also in those playoffs and lost. I've been there for those highs and lows, just like any other parent that I see on the sideline now. So I think I have a lot of empathy for what they go through, and also as a coach, I was a coach as well up until U10, right before we started getting into the level of academy. I couldn't coach anymore, I wasn't qualified for. So I have a lot of empathy for the parents on the sideline, the players and the coaches.
Speaker 2:When you look back, think back to pre-referee days. Is there anything you said on a sideline that you look back and you're like, oh my goodness, I was so wrong and I had no clue just what the difference from being on the field to being on the sideline was. I'm putting you on the spot a little.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I actually. So before I was a parent with kids who played. I was actually a rugby player in college. So my first love, true love. I played all sorts. I was actually with my dad this weekend he's 80, almost 82 now down in Florida and I was asking him about myself as an athlete when I was a kid. And I wasn't a great athlete but I loved playing sports. If you had me in basketball or hockey or baseball or anything, soccer I played a lot of soccer growing up too. I love playing, but my, when I became older, when I got into college, I discovered rugby and I fell head over heels in love. I was a team captain.
Speaker 1:I was the president of the rugby club for a couple of years, which I don't recommend to anyone. There's 60 mutants running around. It's like never a good idea, especially taking them to other colleges and stuff. I'm glad I never was arrested or anything like that, or they never got arrested, at least when I was. But I would say in my last year I got a little burnt out.
Speaker 1:I had picked up a couple injuries and so I decided to get certified as a rugby referee and if anyone's have seen clips online of rugby, you'll notice that the culture is very different. Although it can be a very it's the untrained observer a very violent sport with very heavy collisions, the respect between the players and the coaches is unlike anything in the sport of soccer and really, quite honestly, anything in American sport. You address the referee as sir. The only person who talks to the referee is the team captain. When the referee is speaking, no one else speaks and they speak in a nice calm voice. And so I learned to be a referee and I ref for a few years after that, becoming a nationally certified rugby referee.
Speaker 1:That's how I became an adult is playing rugby and treating officials with respect and also recognizing how hard it was to be in the middle of all that chaos, but demanding respect and demanding a respect without being demonstrative. I'm not yelling at anyone, I'm using a nice calm voice. I'm treating you as an adult and calm, with respect and professionalism. I expect you to treat me the same back. So when I became a parent of kids playing, I still carried that with me when I went to sporting events because, number one, I understood how difficult it was to be that person in the middle with the whistle, but I also know that there's a better way. We don't have to be like insane lunatics screaming at a referee at a youth sporting event. There's no benefit of it, it's absolutely ridiculous. It's not good behavior. So I always tried to model that when I was a parent on the sideline as well.
Speaker 2:So you gave me my end and I sent you a couple of questions beforehand. It's a scenario I'm about to tell you. I coach U10 rec soccer.
Speaker 1:Which is insane, by the way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's 77. It's eight and nine-year-olds and they're just like. It's the first time that it starts looking a little bit like soccer, but still not quite. And so it's kids who rec soccer. You have everywhere from I've had special needs, kids who have never played before, all the way to the kid who's about to go to classic as he goes to U12s on the same team and you have to coach everyone in between that, and so it's nuts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just want to, let's, let's. I just want to talk about U10 soccer. So I knew we were going to get in this, but I need to tell you that. So I get 30 to 40 messages from parents and coaches and players all around the world every single day, from Nepal and New Zealand to Hawaii and even Alaska, like every part of this world. I get videos sent to me and people ask questions, but the overwhelming majority of things that get sent my way in particular are from U10 parents, u10. Really it is, and I will tell you.
Speaker 1:If you ask referees what are the two most difficult age groups to referee, they would tell you U10 recreational soccer and adult recreational soccer, because you get just as much whining and complaining. They're're 35 and above. Oh my gosh, it's like the worst. Literally, they're crying all the time for every little contact and then someone always wants to start a fight. But U10 is a really interesting age. You're still dealing with a smaller pitch. Parents are really engaged. It's their babies out there. You're finally getting of an age where the contact out there can actually sometimes be a little rough and it can be a little challenging. And you combine that with the fact okay.
Speaker 2:And depending on the coach, like I coach contact, I coach my kids to shoot. Like I teach them the shield. And so, like you can shield but don't extend, be ready for the bump. And so other coaches don't coach that. And so little Jimmy gets bumped a little bit and the parent goes crazy, Absolutely.
Speaker 1:It's the first time their kid is actually getting like physical contact and it can sometimes be hard physical contact. And then you have, as you were saying, you have lots of different kids, lots of different ability levels. You could have a child who is four feet tall and 65 pounds out there on the same pitch as someone who's five foot five. Maybe I had 120 pounds.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they stood next to each other on the back line and it was hilarious.
Speaker 1:Yes, and so the contact between someone who's got that 120 pounds of mass versus someone who's got 70 pounds of mass, even if they're playing fairly and it's a legal challenge, can send a kid lying.
Speaker 1:And the last thing I will say on this is that referees generally, the better you get over time, when you've ref for three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 years, you start reffing higher and higher age group and higher ability level games. The referees that we assign to your U6, u8, and U10 matches because those pay the least okay. Those are the least trained referees that we assign to your U6, u8, and U10 matches because those pay the least okay, those are the least trained referees. Okay. Or if they're even adults, they still are probably brand new or they can't run anymore. They're still not going to be your high level referees. So you bring all those factors together and you put that in this cauldron and you get like a boiling point where people parents get very upset, coaches can get very upset it might be their first time coaching something competitive. The referees don't know how to handle the situation. So all of these things together make U10 a very intense environment to be a referee, without a doubt.
Speaker 2:So here's my example of that. I want to get your opinion on how you think you would tell parents to respond to this. So the situation we had a player driving down the field was going into goal, was in the box and he went to shoot. At the same time a ball came on the field from some siblings dribbling around on the outside. Goalie and defender went for the second ball Shot went in. Referee calls the shot back, which it was against my team, and I agreed with her bringing it back, but then she called for a goal kick. It was against my team and I agreed with her bringing it back, but then she called for a goal kick. I went in that. I was like hey, why are we losing possession? It feels like we're being penalized for something that wasn't our fault. We're losing the goal and possession. And she thought for a second she goes. You know what? You're right, it should be a drop ball. And so she moved it and moved out of the box.
Speaker 2:We did a drop ball and there was a dad on the sideline who did not like that and starts chirping at her and he was on our sideline, which I don't know how much listeners about. Soccer Parents are not supposed to be on the same sidelines as the players. And so he was right behind me and I turned around to him and I was like, sir, she is 17 years old, she's a high school student, the referee she's still learning the game, just like your kid is learning the game. We got to give her some grace to figure it out. And he said doesn't matter, how can these kids learn if the ref doesn't know what's going on? And I was trying to diffuse him and coach at the same time, and we could do an entire podcast conversation about just this scenario. Okay, here's my question for you. Yes, there are a ton of things that happen in youth sport where parent does not like what happens. How would you, as the official, suggest the parent respond in that moment?
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, go ahead. I know.
Speaker 1:There's so many things I have to break down. First off, coach, you were wrong. I know I found out later I was wrong. The referee was right. So this young 17-year-old girl, okay, and listen you, and I got no animosity towards you, but you need to support that young woman, okay, because she is young and she is just starting out and she's doing her best and she was absolutely right.
Speaker 1:So when a second ball comes onto the pitch and it affects play which in this one it does You've got two players running off to go deal with that ball we restart with a drop ball. And anytime there is a drop ball in the penalty area I know you used the word box before, but I want to use the technical term that 18 yard out from the end or on a smaller field is maybe a little less, but anytime there is a drop ball restart for something that happens in the penalty area, we always give a drop ball to the goalkeeper. And that is not because we're being nice, that is because what it says in the laws of the game. And so she was right. And a coach someone that she respects, an older man said hey, that's not right, we should get the ball. And she questioned herself and wound up doing something that was incorrect. And now we've got another parent who's going to start yelling out hey, that's not right, I want something different.
Speaker 2:And so here's the hard part. Let me interrupt you as well, please, because I asked her why, because I know that she knows more than I do. I asked her why because I know that she knows more than I do and but just because, as you said, an older man who is more of an authority figure she's reffed our games, where I know we're on a first name basis, but I'm an authority figure to her where I asked her the question which, as a coach, you have the right to ask, but it made her respond in a way that questioned herself. So then she questions herself. I find out later it was the wrong call. Thankfully we didn't score off of it, so there wasn't. There was not a goal off of the drop ball, but I don't know all the rules myself because I'm a rec league coach.
Speaker 1:That's why I'm asking the referee what the deal is. I know. So it's actually. It's funny Like it's a there's this cascading effect that occurs right.
Speaker 2:And it's 10 year old soccer.
Speaker 1:Exactly, dude it is the most it is the most meaningless.
Speaker 1:Meaningful thing on earth and I say that with all due love and respect was watching my kids play basketball and I coach basketball. We won. When I was a basketball coach, you ate basketball. We didn't win a single game all year and in the final game, I think we won. It was like 10 to eight and, man, I tell you, we celebrated like we had just won the world cup. We all the kids were crazy, the parents were going crazy as the seconds were counting down. It was literally the most amazing moment that we had won one single game.
Speaker 1:But in the scheme of things, oh, kids would have been fine just getting their snack after the game. They would have been all right. They gave their best effort, we had fun all season, and I think that's so important to keep in mind those referees, especially those young teenagers that we have out there working those games. They don't get practice, they don't get training, they don't get mentoring. They're just trying to figure it out, just like everyone else on the pitch, and so it's really important that, as coaches, that we try and support them and respect their decision, because their decision is final. By questioning them on the pitch, we are demonstrating a behavior to the players and the parents who are looking to us as to how to act as adults, and so we have to be really conscious of that, that we are setting an example.
Speaker 2:Now. So can I ask a question before we even get to the parent? All right On my end, because I agree, the way I coach sets the example to my team and my parents. In that situation where I legitimately had a question why are we getting penalized for this? Didn't raise my voice, talking to her, just like you and I are talking. Respect her, but I want clarification. So, for anyone who might be coaching youth sports, what should I have done differently there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a tough one. Listen, I totally understand that. Your intent was simply to understand the call and yes, it's not being penalized. It's really what's the call. If you will, and can you help me understand the call? That might be a great way to phrase it, and I encourage referees to communicate as best they can as to why they've made a decision, as opposed to questioning the call or suggesting there should be some alternative to the call as well. Can you help me understand the call? Great, that's always a great one, and I think that's important for referees. I always find that the best referees are the ones who communicate their decisions not only to the players on the field, but they do it with their body language and their words in a way that the coaches can hear it and the players can hear it. That's really helpful. If we can, though, let's go to the parent. So, for all the parents who are listening to your podcast and I hope lots of parents listen to your podcast and my podcast Again there's never a time when it's okay for a parent to be questioning an official or yelling at an official or trying to intimidate an official on the pitch, especially now.
Speaker 1:I'd say that for any referee, but especially when you have a teenager out there, when you have a minor out there, there's such a dramatic power imbalance and again, it's just one of these things. It's like when an adult, again an authority, figure in their world and you often see this they stand up to make themselves seem bigger and they'll raise their voice. No one can tell me. That is not intimidating, it is abusive and it's very traumatic. And what could be a referee? This young 17 year old referee, that one thing right there, where someone and I'm not saying that this parent screamed at her or anything like that, but I I was in tears after the game.
Speaker 2:We, yeah, we, that's the thing we talked to her after. She was in tears after the game.
Speaker 1:That parent did not mean for that young girl to be in tears, necessarily, but because of their actions by screaming at this young girl or yelling at this girl. There's 150 people sitting around. You got all the parents from both teams. You get the players from both teams. You get the coaches from both teams. There's maybe other players from both teams. You got the coaches from both teams. There's maybe other referees, whatnot.
Speaker 1:You're already being judged out there and then when you have a parent dress you down and question you and insult your decisions or say you don't know what you're doing out there, then you're starting to question why am I out here? I will tell you my own son, okay. So my son and I we did not. His was a little higher level soccer and it was legitimately a pretty scary situation. But my son, who reffed with me for eight years, we would always crew together, we'd go out together, he would center, sometimes I'd run the line, sometimes for him he'd be on my line, I'd be centering. We did games every weekend together and he played at the highest levels of youth soccer in this country, knew the game inside now now, but we started doing these higher level adult amateur games so like semi-professional games, and in one of these games he had someone run up on him as an assistant referee and like like chest bump him like his face, whatnot.
Speaker 1:And it just got to the point what am I doing? Like, why in the world would I do this anymore? Every time we get a sign I'm getting this anxiety, like I don't need to do this. And he got a job on a pizza truck. He was making just as much money, he was making killer tips, he was having fun, he liked the people he worked with.
Speaker 1:I was like, what am I doing this for? And so we just need to be really careful, especially for these youth level matches, that we're appreciating them for what they are, which is this wonderful thing to get to watch our kids play the beautiful game and that sometimes the referee might make a mistake. It's not the end of the world, just let it go. If you have a question, good coach, ask a question, whatnot? Maybe ask me? Hey, would you mind helping me understand that call Great, let's talk through it. I can learn, you can learn whatever, no big deal. But it's not constantly trying to question or yell at the referee, because we may lose that young referee and then it just causes a cast the self-fulfilling property prophecy. We lose 80 of referees within three years. Why? Because of coach abuse and parent abuse. Okay, so we get new referees and then it starts all over again. We need to keep the ones we got and let them feel comfortable and gain experience and confidence, and then you'll get better refereeing over time yeah, that that part of it is one.
Speaker 2:I don't think the thing you said that sticks out to me the most in that is the power imbalance. Yeah, because I have a degree in sport management with a minor in coaching. I coached or I refereed YMCA soccer. As part of my degree, I took an officiating and sports class as a 20-year-old and so that was my first introduction to being a ref. And it's now 18 years later and I've never thought of it in the phrase power imbalance, like you said.
Speaker 2:But a high school student and an adult just by nature are going to be a power imbalance, it doesn't matter who it is, just by nature are going to be a power imbalance. It doesn't matter who it is teenager and a grown person, male, female, whatever that power imbalance is there. And I don't think I know I am more on this side of grace upon grace to referees because it's such a hard job, regardless of the sport, and even I haven't taken into consideration the power and balance of that. So, to parents who may have never considered that before, how do you want them to? Or I don't say how do you want them, how would you coach them to change their perspective on the person officiating their games, no matter what the sport might be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would tell them that the people that they are watching out on the pitch are are the same as your kids during practice. So when your kids go to practice Monday night, wednesday night, whenever it is whatnot, and they're practicing different plays and they're working on different formations and they're doing different shooting drills and passing drills and defensive drills and things like that, okay, that is what the referee is doing. When they're reffing your U8, u10, u12 match, okay, that's what they're doing. Okay, that time is their practice, because they don't get practice during the week, they don't get training, they don't get mentoring. What you're seeing out them is them practicing. They're trying to. You can read the laws of the game, which no one actually does. Until you've been a referee for three or four years, maybe you can do that, but the practice is what you're seeing. So, if you're not going to yell at your child who's eight, nine, 10, 12 years old at practice for missing a pass or scuffing, a job and if you're doing that, you need to go to therapy because it's not healthy.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely Right, it's not healthy at all.
Speaker 1:But if you're not going to sit on the side and scream at them every time they make a mistake during practice, don't do that to the referee at your recreational match on Saturday and Sunday, because it's also that's what they're doing. So when they referees like myself and you've been doing it for five years, 10 years, and you're starting to do some of the highest level of competitive MLS snacks ECNL you're starting to get into those professional worlds. Okay, yeah, that's game time, it's being videoed. It's really high end competitive stuff. On that point, there's a certain level of expectation that you've been through the practice, you know what you're doing, but at that, u8, u10, u12, that's the referee's practice. So treat it like that. Say thank you, say hey, good job, thank you for being here today. That's really all you need to say to them at that age.
Speaker 2:The same thing can be said for youth football and middle school. It doesn't take much to get your license and there's no practice fields. So your JV baseball umpire out in the field could have gotten his license two weeks ago and he's trying to learn, just like your 14-year-old freshman is trying to figure out how to play the game. But unfortunately his learning impacts your kids playing potentially, and so it's natural to have an emotional reaction to that. But at some point we've got to be the mature adults in the room and say, yes, that happened. No, that was not good, I did not enjoy that. But I'm not going to say something to the person who was trying their best to figure this out.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I'll tell you, man, it's. There's so many things. First off, again that training that the referee gets, or that umpire I can talk about soccer. I can't talk about the training for the umpire, but for soccer, cause I run these classes. I'm a certified mentor. Now we take them.
Speaker 1:They do an online course, which is a joke, so easy. You do it while watching premier league Saturday morning, knock it out and then you actually go for an in-person four hour course, which is I literally I teach them how to hold a flag, I tell them how to show up to the field with a uniform, whatnot? They get maybe 35 minutes to run around and learn how to blow a whistle, and that's about it. How to identify offside, which is really complex. We spent like an hour on offsides and that's still really complex. That's all. That's all they get.
Speaker 1:And then they have to go out on the pitch in front of this very highly charged environment with kids who are not fully developed and can be clumsy at all different experience levels and try and figure out wait, is that a foul? Is that not a foul? Is that normal contact? I don't know. Should I blow my whistle? I'm not sure that's what they're doing in their head. They're trying to figure that out. So you have some kids who never blow the whistle right Cause they're so scared to make a call, and that's obviously a problem. The games get out of hand and get crazy, but yelling at them is not going to make them better, that's for sure. I can just say that Yelling does not help at all.
Speaker 2:Okay, so switch gears. We only got a couple minutes left with you. So you just mentioned, you've now risen to the ECNL and MLS next ranks. For those of you who don't know soccer, think of your upper travel ball, softball and baseball, like your premier national teams. It's that type of level. Those kids are likely going to play high level division one soccer at some point. So along the way you've seen a lot of different types of players. Have you noticed anything, any correlation between the players who respect you and who play the game the right way and parents in the stands? Because I have my opinions.
Speaker 2:I think, I've got a hypothesis, but I just want to see if you can prove it right before I say it.
Speaker 1:I'll just tell you winners take personal responsibility, losers blame everyone else, and so it's pretty common that you'll have a coach who whines and complains with kids who whine and complain.
Speaker 1:And I had a game, just a couple of weeks ago actually, where kids, a very whiny coach who I had to card because he was just too much dissent, and players who were whining and there was a play in the penalty area where this whiny team felt that one of their players got fouled and they literally stopped playing and both the goalkeeper and the defender turned to me and it was like an easy shot on goal and winds up going in because they just all switched off. I can't even begin to tell you. I would also tell you for parents how many times I've had parents scream handball, or. And then their kids on their team stopped playing, thinking that it was a handball or void, and then their kids on their team stopped playing thinking that it was a handball or thinking that it was offside, and then the other team goes on the floor and then parent yells play to the whistle.
Speaker 1:It's just, it's ridiculous. So I would just say the best. I would tell people if you want to make it to a top level academy. When you go to those top level academies, guess what they tell the parents shut up. I don't want to hear you.
Speaker 1:Don't joystick your kids, don't yell at the referee. Your kid needs to come to practice and learn how to play and then they need to apply it on game day. I don't want you yelling at the kid pass, shoot, switch man on. Because I want the kids talking to each other on the pitch to tell them what to do and I want them thinking about should they pass, should they drive, should they dribble, should they switch themselves. Parents need to learn to be quiet. Encourage their kids to work on their own personal technical ability, take responsibility for their behavior and the outcomes on the pitch as opposed to blaming other people. But yes, generally speaking, the whinier the team is the whinier the coach, the whinier the parents and, generally speaking, you know the worse their results. I almost never see a top level team with that kind of behavior.
Speaker 2:So last question before I get you out of here, because I want to end this on an encouragement to parents. I know a lot of people listening. A lot of the stuff we've been saying today goes way over their head, because we've mentioned some technical stuff, we've mentioned like we try to keep it simple, but they still don't understand the laws of their game and their kid is into it, their kid loves it and they're just doing the best they can to be the best parent and support them the most. But inevitably because, like we've talked about so, many of these referees are young, they don't know what's going on. There might be a call that was wrong or that was missed. That does impact a game. When Timmy or Jenny come home and it was a legitimate issue how would you coach parents to handle that situation off the field, in the car, at home, not on the field, but when the kid is complaining we should have won, but the referee messed it up. What would you tell that parent and how would you encourage them to deal with that?
Speaker 1:That's so funny. I probably send messages to this effect to parents three or four times a day, because oftentimes I'll get a video and then with the video there will be the statement we lost because of this call. We lost because of this call. We got knocked out of the state championship because of this call.
Speaker 2:Forgetting that they had three shots that missed earlier and all that yeah that's the thing, and especially at U10.
Speaker 1:And I always have to remind people and I may look at it and be like, yeah, maybe that was a mistake, but I'll also encourage them to go back through the video of this game and count out how many missed passes you had, count out how many missed tackles you had, count out how many missed shots you had. How about your goalkeeper? Were they perfect? Did they let in a ball that could have been savable? I promise you that your team, especially at the lower levels, at U6, u8, u10, u12, u14, they are going to make 50 times more errors in a game than a referee. Will a referee make a mistake? Absolutely, but guess what? Life is not fair. Life is not fair. Sometimes things happen that are not going to go your way, that you're going to feel that the referee missed a call, maybe they didn't see it, maybe they made a mistake, maybe they misapplied the law. Yeah, it happens. Try and think about what you can do to be better. Try and think about what you and your teammates can do next time to be able to put more goals in the net, where it doesn't come down to one call from a referee. But I will tell you, and this is one thing that's so interesting for me and a very important message for all parents out there.
Speaker 1:I believe that my children have grown through the adversities they've faced in life more than the victories. The victories are wonderful, let me tell you. They feel great, but my kids are strong and resilient today because they've learned how to deal with adversity and defeats. And trying to protect your child and victim blame, blame someone else for their loss, their team's loss you are cheating them from some of the most important message and lessons that they could have in life. So when they're upset about a call oh, they didn't call this call or this should have been a penalty, be like hey, it happens, that's life. The ref didn't see it or didn't feel it was a penalty. Okay, let's talk about what else happened in the game. Were you perfect in the game or anything you could have done better than anything your teammates could have done better Was the intensity where it needed to be at all times. Try and refocus them back to personal responsibility and what they can improve, and worry less about externalities and things that they can't control.
Speaker 2:One of my go-tos in that situation is I'll say all right, refs make mistakes too. Did you make any mistakes today? Absolutely Okay, then does. Is their mistake more important than your mistake? And that that gets into gets them thinking of okay, yes, they're going to make mistakes. I'm going to make mistakes too, and it's all about how I respond to my mistake and I respond to their mistake, because that's sports and it's life in general too. There's always going to be something happen, and we can only control what we can't control.
Speaker 1:And that is it right. That is the message right there. We can only control what we can control. And, man, I'm just going to tell you, in every match, every referee will make a mistake. We'll get a throw in wrong, there'll be a foul called one way that maybe it should have gone the other way, maybe it would have been a penalty kick from some referee someday. Maybe it's not the penalty kick here, maybe they didn't see it the way you saw it, whatever. Maybe that person was onside and they were called offside, maybe. But generally speaking, they're going to get a lot of that stuff right and premier league officials data says that they get about 90% of their key match decisions correct on the field. Okay, they're going to be 10%.
Speaker 2:They get wrong and they're professionals, they're the best of the best, like a hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 1:And literally every single day, get a video breakdown and training and everything your youth referees. It's not going to be that high. They're going to miss stuff, and that's okay. Try and focus, as you said, on your locus of control. What can I control? What can I do better? Again, if you lose a game, it's not the end of the world. Losing sometimes can make people more resilient. You want people who can understand how to take a loss and rebound. You're not always going to win every single week, and that's okay.
Speaker 2:I say it on here all the time. I have a sweatshirt that says it, so people have seen it on social. But youth sports are not about winning. That's not the problem. If you're going into your games primarily concerned with the result of the scoreboard, you've got the wrong priorities, because it's about player development. It's about helping kids become the best they can be, and we're just using sport as the avenue to do that and we that, so that that's it gets. It comes everything at the end of the day it comes back to. It's not about winning. It's about helping our kids develop so that when they become adults, they will have every tool in their toolkit to be as successful as they need to be 1000.
Speaker 1:We're growing young men and women. We want them to be successful in life. Yes, it successful on the pitch. That's wonderful, but again winning a random u10 match that trophy, I got right back there.
Speaker 2:If you're watching on youtube, it doesn mean much but it was fun to watch the kids Exactly. It's wonderful and it's exciting. We were going to get ice cream either way afterwards.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly, I told the parents.
Speaker 2:After the last game of the season, we're going to get ice cream.
Speaker 1:It doesn't matter if we win or lose Exactly, it's not the most important thing, Honestly, it on. Are they falling in love with the sport? Are you developing children who enjoy competition, who have grit and resilience? When people ask me, what do you need to be successful in life?
Speaker 2:Number one a sense of humor right, you got to be able to laugh at yourself.
Speaker 1:But number two, those who have grit and resilience and what I would call bounce back ability when things aren't going your way, that they dig in and get tough and power through. Those are the ones who I know are going to be successful in life. It's very important.
Speaker 2:That's awesome, David. Thanks so much for your time today. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:No, my pleasure, sir, my pleasure, anytime Awesome.
Speaker 2:That's it for today. If you like the show, please leave us a rating wherever you listen. If you listen on Apple Podcasts, it would be a huge help if you left us a small review. If you're watching on YouTube, make sure to hit that subscribe button. Like we always ask, though, if this episode was interesting or helped you in any way, the best thing you can do for us is to share it with a friend.
Speaker 2:Next week, we'll be talking to Brett Carroll. Brett played in the major leagues. He also played in college and he now owns a hitting clinic for youth baseball players where he has travel teams all the way from the young ages through a post-grad 19-year-old team. He has an incredible perspective on the whole player and developing the whole person through sports. I think you'll really enjoy that. But for this week, like we always tell you, enjoy your time with your kids. Enjoy that time at practice. Enjoy watching them play. As Coach Scott Jackson told us a couple weeks ago, how lucky are we to get to watch our kids compete in the thing that they love. Enjoy that this week. We hope you have an incredible time. We will talk to you again next week. Have a good week, everybody.
Speaker 1:I hope you enjoyed that conversation. I know that I did, man. I tell you it is so important the role that parents play on the sideline, not only for the children when they leave the field I mean, obviously we know how important that is but the children on the field supporting the coach, supporting the kids supporting the referee and supporting the referee Absolutely critical, and I love that conversation. I hope you did too. Definitely check out that podcast, the Healthy Sports Parents, and I think he's got some wonderful guests that he's already interviewed and wonderful guests lined up. If you can share it with other people, if you know people who have young kids on teams any sports teams, whatever it is soccer, baseball, basketball, anything send them a link to that podcast. I know they'll enjoy it. Thanks again for your support and I hope your next match is red card free.