REFS NEED LOVE TOO
An honest perspective from the 3rd team on the pitch... the referees. Through humor, analysis and education, we are slowly changing how people view referees and officials in all sports. We care and have a love for the game as much as any player or coach. Sometimes even more. Youth soccer (proper football) is a multi-billion $ industry in the US. Tremendous money is spent on players, competitions, travel etc., but almost nothing spent on developing the next generation of referees. I hope that this Podcast inspires, educates and humanizes the next generation of referees for their own development and appreciation from the players, coaches and spectators they need to work alongside.
REFS NEED LOVE TOO
Mastering Soccer Officiating: Leland Grant on Elite Referee Qualities and the Innovative Footwear Design of Umpiro
I think you guys are going to love today's episode. I got to sit down with one of my really good friends of the channel, leland Grant. He is a US soccer national referee coach and was a national referee for a number of years, so phenomenal lessons to be learned there. Just a quick shout out to some of the sponsors of my podcast, ref6. True story Friday night, first varsity game of the year for high school and I go to start my, my ref six on my watch right before kickoff and my app wasn't on there. I had done a hard reset on my watch because I had gotten a new phone. Long story short, but I didn't have my ref six. And even though there's a scoreboard, man, when you don't have it on your watch, I felt like I was flying blind out there. I mean I didn't get to have any of my stats, any of my sprints, any of that stuff. Oh, love me some ref six, hey. And if you love ref six and you're already you, you know using it, or you want to get ref six to be able to keep the best timer ever, I use code refs need love r-e-f-s-n-e-e-d-l-o-v and you get 10% off your monthly or annual subscription. So check it out. Also want to give a big shout out to Refersports the app for assigning Okay. It is made for referees by people who have been referees and therefore it actually works like the way you would want it to work. It's native on a mobile app. It's so easy to use for a signer, so easy to use for referees Clear, concise information that is just on demand when you need it, not fumbling around looking for different pieces of information you need for a match. Please check it out. I know you're going to love it.
Speaker 1:And now for our show. Hello and welcome to the Refs Need Love 2 podcast, the show that gives you a real, raw and behind the scenes view of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch the referee. I'm your host, david Gerson, a grassroots referee and certified mentor with over 10 years of experience and over 1300 matches under my belt. You can find me at refsneedlovetocom, on Instagram, tiktok and now YouTube. Today we are going to be interviewing a very special friend of the pod, mr Leland Grant.
Speaker 1:Leland has been a referee since 1990. People, that's when I graduated college. He has began his career in Virginia and he has refereed at all levels of the US sports, youth, soccer events, appearing at DA Showcase when DA was a thing. He was at youth nationals twice. That is no joke. From 2012 to 2019, leland was a grade three national referee with US soccer and worked games in the USL all over the country, as well as tournaments like nationals the Hank Steinbrenner Cup and many semi-pro matches in various leagues like Nationals, the Hank Steinbrenner Cup and many semi-pro matches in various leagues. During the fall college season, he was selected three times to the NCAA Final Four Three different times. That's crazy. During his years as a national referee, he also ran the Tennessee Academy, where many referees have graduated are now working MLS and FIFA matches Crazy. Most recently, in 2020, he retired as a national referee and became a national coach for US soccer, currently residing in Nashville, tennessee. Welcome Leland.
Speaker 2:Hey David. Thank you, man, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Oh man, it is such my pleasure. I feel like this conversation has been a long time coming.
Speaker 2:Absolutely it's funny hearing all that list of things. It's in my head. I'm going back to all of those places.
Speaker 1:It's wow, it's amazing 18 years and it's certainly it's an extensive career. But let's talk about going. You got your national referee badge. You became now became a national referee coach. So this you are someone who is invested, engaged and passionate about it. But how did you start? What got you into officiating?
Speaker 2:I was playing when I was younger and youth rec leagues and I there were refs out there, obviously, and at some point I heard oh, they get paid. That was it. And that story is very similar to many friends of mine who ref at top levels. It's oh yeah. When I was a kid I needed to make money, but what a great way to make money. Refing tournaments and leaving with a check for the weekend after doing 12 games was outstanding and created some really long lasting friendships People I'm still friends with today that I've known since 1997, 98 when I got going. It's incredible what a ride it's been.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I was just talking to a coach yesterday on the sideline post-match and he's a former referee and he encourages all of his players to become referees, not only because it's money, which is nice, you need to have that. It makes you self-sufficient early on in life, but it teaches the kids wind up being better players. They wound up understanding the game more from a whole different perspective, seeing the game in a different way, and they will become better players because of it. So I think it's so valuable. It's really cool. As a national coach for US soccer, what do you see as the most important qualities in a top-level referee? Can you give us a little perspective of that? So, as a coach, what are you looking for in the top referees and how do people go about developing those skills?
Speaker 2:Sure, it's a good question. There's a lot you could list, but to really break it down into main groups, I would say I'm looking at referees, and this is for referees who want to move forward, because it doesn't. There's referees that are good referees and referees that want to learn and develop and be better. And then there's referees that go, oh man, I want a FIFA badge. It's definitely a question I ask, like before the game. I'll say, hey, so tell me about yourself, what are you trying to do, what are your goals? And that actually is super helpful when I'm giving a debrief or thinking, how do I approach this coaching assessment, if you will, with this referee and with this referee crew? Because if it's a referee saying, hey, I want to be a national referee, I want to work pro games, I want to work MLS, then that obviously puts a different lens on the type of feedback I might give. So, that said, broad strokes would be I'm looking at referees who one have the referee lifestyle, so are fit, they're exercising, not just on the field.
Speaker 2:We say you can't referee as you're training. You need to train referee, right? There's obviously things that go along with that. Are you getting enough rest? Are you working out in a gym? Are you hydrating? Is your diet on point? Again, that's this lifestyle. Now again, if refereeing is just a hobby, that's fine. We need referees and we need referees who love it and just want to be out there and have fun and make money. That's awesome. But that, again, that changes my perspective as a national coach.
Speaker 1:I do want to ask you a little bit more about the presence of a referee on the pitch to make it to that next level, to go to the professional level. What do they need to have to be seen as a professional referee that can make it to the next level?
Speaker 2:Confidence. It's so key Confidence starts if I'm a coach and I want to see the crew arrive, how they arrive, are they walking together? Are they talking? Are they on their phone? Are they texting? I want to watch them warm up and I want to see when they arrive.
Speaker 2:If I look at the crew and go man I have confidence in in this group of referees, is your jersey clean? Not, I'm not talking about starch and iron, but do you have mud on the back of it from the day before when it was raining? How do you walk? Are your shoulders back as you are? Do you walk and exude? I'm confident in my ability to officiate this game. When you walk onto the field in that mindset of man, I'm gonna knock this game out of the park. That sort of exudes this aura to use a zeitgeist term that everybody else sees. The crew warms up together. The players look and they go oh man, okay, and it's I think it's more subconscious. I don't think they're going, the players going hey, look, jimmy, at the refs, but I think they're noticing. It's just like a notice of oh man, the refs warmed up. It's almost a um, it's subconscious, it's non-spoken. Uh, the coaches are looking at the crew and going man. They walk together. Are they pre pregame? Is their pregame similar to the players? Are they warming up like athletes?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, I a thousand percent agree. I've had coaches who I've never met before. Literally I'll hear them say oh, we've got a professional today because I'm doing a proper warmup pre-match. Just same way the players would be going through a warmup to get ready for the match. It sets the bar high. I would say it's like the first foul.
Speaker 2:It's like the first foul in a game, the first foul you need to pick the right foul, be something ticky-tack, it needs to be oh, that's a foul. That's where we're saying this is not okay. Same thing with the first right it's got to make a statement. So, with everything you do, are you making a statement of confidence which instills, ultimately, trust from the teams, from the benches, from the spectators? And that way, when you instill that trust from 30 minutes prior to the match or whenever you can get there an hour before the game, I don't know when you instill that trust that way. When we do miss a decision which we all will probably in most games, we miss decisions. It can be a big one, it can be a little one. Hopefully it's a little one. When we do miss a decision, you're not, you're starting at a 10. So you miss a decision, you're not down to a zero. They might go. Okay, better luck next time.
Speaker 2:It's. That just starts from. It just starts as you arrived at the field and as you move up up. It starts before the game. It starts a few days out when you're emailing with the referee crew and saying, hey, guys, what time are we going to get there? Hey, here's my pregame notes. Hey, I watched these teams. I know that's not really happening at grassroots youth level, but it's starting to because all these games are on video, so you can usually access, you know stats on a team and know who's who. So again, the more research you can do prior to a game, again it's going to up your level of confidence as you arrive to the field.
Speaker 1:One thing I want to ask you. So, when you're having conversations with these referees who want to move up and you're doing your post-match coaching, I don't want to call it an assessment anymore.
Speaker 2:Debrief, whatever you call it, yeah, yeah, whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how critical is it that the referee can cite the consideration or the specific laws of the game for you If they're one of these who wants to be a pro, very critical it is, it's everything, because if Okay, so, for example, you have a dog, so decision.
Speaker 2:And I ask you about it after the game. And I say, hey, tell me about the decision. And I'm usually a little nonspecific because I'd like to see if they're keying into what I'm saying. So let's say, the decision happened in the 44th minute, which is even a bigger decision for potential dog-so maybe red card, maybe penalty going into halftime, right. So I might say, hey, just before halftime, what happened on the field? That? What was the call you made? And if they look at me like a deer in the headlights I'm now I'm thinking as a coach. I'm like, okay, but I'll give him, let's go another try. Hey, tell me about the foul that, just the one you called outside the penalty area. And the key, what you're saying is the answer to your question is they might say, oh, I had a. I gave a yellow card because I considered dogs. However, I had a defender there back to cover, so for me the four D's weren't met. I will say, great and realistically, unless there's video evidence that is to the contrary, I'm going with the referee. As a coach, I'm going to support this official because most likely they're in a better position than me. Now, again, I might say, hey, I need to look at the video before we discuss this, and if the game was on video, we might have a short debrief at the field. But go, hey, let's do a Zoom call next week We'll look at some video clips Once again.
Speaker 2:If it's a 50-50 decision and the referee is saying, hey, listen, I had direction, I had distance, I had possession or potential for control of the ball, but I didn't have the defender component, I'm going to look to support that referee as well. I think that's a big thing as a coach. We I think I speak for many coaches we are not trying to find a thing and go, oh, it could have been a red card and you missed it. We're not trying to do that. I wouldn't want that as a coach when I was a referee or from a coach when I was a referee. But it's citing those considerations and its knowledge of them and the laws. Of course, that goes without saying. Those are the things that. Those are the conversations we have in the debrief. So those are the things that those are the conversations we have in the debrief.
Speaker 2:And if I have a referee that gives a decision, let's say a challenge, and I say, hey, tell me what you had on that challenge when you gave a yellow card right towards the end of the game, over near the blue team bench. Again, just a little bit of a ambiguous lead in, just so. The referee is driving the conversation and that said too, as referees on the come up look to drive the conversation in these debriefs. As a coach, I can ramble, as anyone who knows me knows that about me, but I don't want to be doing that in the debrief. It's my job to foster this conversation where I say, hey, tell me about this decision, and ideally the ref and the ARs and the fourth are going.
Speaker 2:I saw this, da, da, da. Oh, what'd you do? Oh, I didn't know that. And then you came over and then you said that, and I'm just listening to what happened, and then at the end I might go. So tell me about your considerations for why you gave yellow card there. And if they go, he just got him or she, yeah, she just slid in and it was in the back of her legs. I'm going. Okay, tell me a little more about it. What was the and I might use a phrase what's the point of contact and they go what do you mean? I'm going? What hit what? Oh, okay, they hit them in the stud with the stud, sorry, or in the stud, sure, with the and where I would say where did they get them? Oh, they got them in the back of their heel, like, and I would go Achilles.
Speaker 2:And now we're talking about, obviously, the difference between maybe a yellow and a red card. But ideally it all comes from the ref crew. So the more you can be up on considerations, laws of the game and more you can memorize what happened in that moment and the snapshot that occurred. Because, again, if you're AR1 and this foul that happened in front of the blue bench is maybe an orange, yellow and red card and you're AR1, you're, it can be great to call the referee over and go hey, here's what I saw, just so you know. And if you give consideration, language, then in the debrief that's coming out and we're saying I might ask, hey, what did you go over and talk to Sam about? And she might say, oh, here's what Sam told me. So, anyway, when all of this is done with language, within the laws and within the considerations, that's the help to render a decision. That's usually correct the considerations.
Speaker 1:That's the help to render a decision. That's usually correct. I just have to say it is a massive differentiator for me the referees who can speak in terms of the considerations, actually list them out, than ones who just talk excuse my expression, but out of their app, because I've met a number of referees who have refereed for a very long time and think of themselves as very high level referees, but then you ask them about a certain challenge and they just use made up terms or made up considerations based on their experience, and that's a big one for me.
Speaker 2:That goes back to what I said earlier about one of these key factors, which is the, not the refereeing lifestyle, but it's more the student of the game. Yeah, and are you reading these things? And are you up to date on these things? Because the considerations when they first came out, as you'll remember, was this massive page document with all these things about stopping everything, stopping a promising attack dog. So now there's a condensed consideration. So, anyway, are you aware of these things?
Speaker 2:And, as a coach, again, if I'm asking you questions, you're going well, in the recent considerations I saw I'm going oh wow, this referee is. Maybe they made a mistake, but that's not the point. We're all going to make mistakes. The point is, are you trying off the field to put that knowledge in your head? That's going to help you on the field and again, we're pulling for you. I'm pulling for you as a coach and missing a decision, getting a missed KMI, cmi, that's fine, it's all going to happen to me all the time, but it's about being a student of the game and, like you said, that language is so important.
Speaker 1:Excellent. I do have a question for you, and this one comes to me two or three times every single week of my life. I get referees who are teenagers or maybe early 20s and they want to know how to climb the officiating ladder. They're currently grassroots today. They eventually want to be regional. What are the key areas they should focus on for growth and what things should they be doing to get those opportunities for growth?
Speaker 2:Sure, I would say one thing that everyone, even at the highest levels, has, that is, moving up on their way up and at the top, is find a mentor, and a mentor doesn't have to be someone who's done it all. Maybe a mentor I could say, ideally they'd be at a higher level than you. So if you want to be regional, maybe you find a regional referee that you connect with on a friend level and somebody you feel like you could call after a tough game and say, hey, this happened to me, is there a referee in your local area? Or referee, you see, a lot that you're like man, forgive my French, that person's a badass. I want to be like them, I want to be like him, I want to be like her. Go talk to that person. It can be a lifelong friendship, ideally it is, even if you surpass them. It's funny because many referees who came through the academy here in Tennessee have surpassed the level I got to, which is really rewarding for me as a mentor. And that said so, those are the mentor side of things.
Speaker 2:The other thing referees can do who are trying to move up is, I say, control the controllables, which I think everybody's hopefully heard if they've listened to your podcast. I'm sure you've said it a million times. I have not gotten through every episode yet, but control the controllables. What are those things? On time, look the part. Warm up before a game debrief with your crew. Big thing is debriefing and then asking for feedback because even if a coach isn't on your game, before you leave that field, ask your crew what you could have done better.
Speaker 2:And I still remember doing games where somebody would come over and go, hey, can I give you some feedback? Of course, hopefully it's another referee, not a player or a parent, but ask if you're the referee at halftime. Ask your ars hey, what's going wrong? What's going good? What do I need to change for the second half? Versus sitting there at halftime and drinking water and eating a power bar and then after the game, hey, guys, what could I have done better? Man, that game didn't feel so good. Or, hey, that game felt great, but what do I need to work on for next time? Asking for feedback. For feedback opens a door to that being approachable thing. If you've developed this lifestyle of man, I'm approachable, I'm looking for feedback, I'm coachable. I love that.
Speaker 1:It's a mindset of being coachable. Yeah, I will just say I don't care who I'm refereeing with, whether they're 13 years old and it's their first match, or they're 30 years old and they're at a very high level. I will still always ask hey, do you have any feedback for me? You could always learn, but you could always do better. There's always something you can do better. There's always little things you can improve upon. So being humble and staying open is so critical.
Speaker 2:Well, and David, here I have a question for you Turn the tables. Do you learn more from games where you feel like you did a pretty great job, or do you learn more from games that you made a few mistakes?
Speaker 1:Absolutely the ones that are challenging, the ones that have been difficult. They are great learning opportunities, and I've grown more as a referee because I've been in those difficult decisions and I've made decisions that I regret or that were really tough or really intense, whatnot. It's that classic. It does not kill you, makes you stronger. I don't wish to see referees struggle, but there's something that you gain through the struggle there's a resilience, there's a knowledge, there's an experience that makes you better, and so I tell people lean into thing.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's something I was going to mention before, I forgot. But referees who want to move up, referee most high-level, craziest games you can. And I'm not saying go out and mess up games, but I'm saying referee those games without the fear, because you'll learn those things. You'll learn things on those games and don't be worried about oh, someone sees. Because as you're starting out, someone's going to see you make mistakes. That's fine, but you're going to take those lessons, like you said, will pay off years down the road.
Speaker 2:So don't be afraid of taking a game that you think it might be a little intimidated by man. I've never done a 18 boys game before but first time for everything, walk out with with confidence and try. I find most times the fact that you're nervous means you care. So nine times out of 10, you're going to do better than you think you would. But yeah, I mean I'm still nervous before games. I think everybody, because I care, I want to do good, because I care about the players, I care about the game, I care about their safety. I don't want the game to go in the in the toilet.
Speaker 1:I completely agree. Hey, I want to change things up a little bit here. I want to talk about your life off the pitch. So, first and foremost, we're going to talk a little bit about Ampiro and what that is and how it began, and what it can do for referees. I know it's all around you, but I do want to just for a brief because I think it's so cool, there's so many way to say it.
Speaker 2:I'm sitting in a recording studio, that's mine stuff and for a living I sing and I write songs and I produce and mix other people's records it's very cool.
Speaker 1:I've gotten to hang out in his studio and it is just like, oh, nashville, it's it's very nashville yeah but I'm sure that performance experience as a singer probably helps you as a referee as well. Yeah, and vice versa.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, being on the stage and, yeah, learning how to act and put on a face, that's definitely helped, definitely, definitely helped. Let's talk. I'm afraid of people.
Speaker 1:That's right. If you can get up on stage and sing, you can probably get in the middle of the pitch too. Exactly saying, you could probably get in the middle of the pitch too. So let's talk a little bit about Umpiro. I want to hear the story of how this began. What were you experiencing as a referee to get you interested in creating Umpiro? And for those who do not know, umpiro is a brand of footwear specifically made for referees, so take us back, if you don't mind, leland. Where did the idea begin, what were you experiencing and what did you set out to create?
Speaker 2:Sure, it's an easy question. As referees, we got to wear our footwear and ideally we're trying to match our shoes to the surface that day. That's it. When you travel, even when you're driving of course I was flying and still fly to games in college you are packing and trying to pack light and nobody wants to check a bag, because that's the one the airlines lose, as we all know. So I was traveling, I was bringing like a cleat, a trail runner, a flat like a running shoe, just a flat running shoe. And then, at least for years, when I was flying to USL games, we would travel in a suit, so you'd be wearing dress shoes. So I'm having this bag packed with shoes and then I have a Jersey, a whistle shorts and socks. So all that time I was thinking man, why is there not? And I was always trying different types of shoes I had.
Speaker 2:My most success I had was with a trail shoe the way it gripped, it was rubber, so it helped with slipping. And then the way the trail sort of those knobby, you know, just not cleats because of the way the bottom doesn't move and they hurt Anyone who's reffed. You know, a three-game tournament in cleats on a Saturday, you feel that on Sunday morning. So, but again, the problem with the turf shoe not turf trail shoe, which was my favorite was that on the upper it didn't look like a soccer shoe. So I was showing up to games in this whatever brand trail shoe we talked about earlier.
Speaker 2:When you arrive to the field, what are you wearing? And I remember having coaches look at me and going, oh, ref, nice kicks, mate. And wearing this shoe that on the top looks like something a hiker wears, but I know that it's the best shoe for me. But again, it's that appearance thing, it's that perception, command, presence, it's everything you can do that's controllable to. When you show up to the field, how can you start off at the highest level? Start off at a 10 versus a five or a negative 10. Anyway, so a bunch of years ago, like seven years ago, I started doing research into man. Could I create a shoe that has all the tread, sort of like a trail hybrid meets a turf cleat thing, but on the upper is a leather shoe? That's what I was able to create after years of. I actually brought some. I brought some souvenirs here. I'll ship them to you if you want.
Speaker 1:Basically, I had a friend, so I designed this outsole because I want to understand I'm just going to jump in here for a second, please For those. So I've had some experience now developing products, but my products have been pretty simple Four cards, a whistle, a coin or something in nature. I want you to talk through briefly because I know there's so much to it. But actually developing a pair of athletic, high performance footwear from scratch and how challenging of a road that is.
Speaker 1:Because this was not an overnight thing. You had an idea and then a month later you've got stock. This is a six, seven-year development. So what are some of those steps you go through? If you don't mind just sharing where you start and how you got to the product you have today, yeah, great question.
Speaker 2:Anyone who's out there you yourself know call it the entrepreneurial spirit. But it has its challenges, not only the call it logistical challenges of man how am I going to make this thing? And there's other challenges like I'm trying to break into a market where something already exists, there are already shoes but what are you doing differently that makes yours superior or there's no point in doing it. So the first thing I did was conceptualize this outsole and I had a friend who I brought these things with me. I brought them with me. They're here at the studio. But I conceptualized this outsole and a friend of mine had a 3D printer. So he goes, man, I could probably print these things.
Speaker 2:So my first thought was like I wonder if I could make an outsole. But this was the design. So it was like a trail sort of muddy, grippy thing. In the back that would be these tall cleats and then on the front sort of a turf cleat where the ball of your foot is to increase acceleration on your step. That's the idea. Like man, that thing was way too stiff. So we printed different fill weights. These are little minis to test fill weights of the 3D printing. Because that was our first thing we were like man, we're going to glue these onto shoes and prove the concept and then maybe take that concept to a bigger shoe manufacturer and go hey look, could you make these? So these are different fill weights, where you get different flexibility, interesting. So then I found a factory that was going to make a prototype. They made one. Now, this was a pro, now, the bottom wasn't mine.
Speaker 1:For those who are not watching the video. So I'm on a web call, so I'm watching. So if you do want to head over to YouTube and look up this conversation YouTube, you can see Leland showing me the examples of all these different pieces, but he's got a sample in his hand, one of the early prototypes that he's made.
Speaker 2:Yes, great, I'm glad I did my hair today for this, knowing it's on YouTube now. So, yeah, this is not the outsole, obviously. But to create a custom outsole, you do what's called an open mold, which is actually a cast that they pour, in my case, rubber into. That makes this custom, one-of-a-kind thing. So this is a prototype. We didn't do the open mold yet, but this was a fly knit upper shoe we did with this sort of rubber support for lateral movement, not only as a referee, but obviously as a system referee. So this was an experiment, but the support laterally wasn't enough in this. We decided to go with the leather. This is the first prototype. This has our custom outsole.
Speaker 2:We did an open mold for this. This was my size because I actually wore these and did several games. I don't know, four or five years ago the shoe brand had a different name. It wasn't Ampiro, it was called Volo, which this is a V, not v, not a u. We had different colors. It's a different shoe. Did all of that, tested again. This again was modified because this outsole is different than our current current one.
Speaker 2:So this is the current model. You can see there's subtle differences in the tread anyway.
Speaker 1:So it was a whole thing, but we're talking years, years, so you spent probably seven years total from concept to having our first, which we went on sale in 23.
Speaker 2:We've only been on sale maybe almost two years now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so thousands upon thousands of dollars, months upon months in between prototypes, years of literally blood, sweat and tears.
Speaker 2:Well, and traveling internationally, because first thing I wanted to do was make it here in America, but you can't. There's no independent shoe manufacturers A goal of mine. Eventually, I would love if I could put Made in the USA on our packaging, but I had to travel to factories internationally. I traveled to Mexico, I traveled to across the world to Hong Kong, because I wasn't, I'm, I'm. I wanted to do my due diligence.
Speaker 2:I needed to go see where these shoes were being made. I needed to check the quality of this stuff. I wanted to see was it? Frankly, I wanted to see whether it's a good working environment. We've heard horror stories of where brands are made and we all know what surrounds those stories. I don't need to go into it, but I didn't want to be part of that. I wanted to make a quality product, even if it cost me more, even if there was less profit in the end, to solve a problem for referees, but not have to worry about oh gosh, I hope they don't find out that my factory, the working conditions are terrible. So again, I've been to these places many times and have a product that is quality, that it just took time to develop.
Speaker 1:I want to ask about that Can we talk about? So we talk about a shoe for referees. What is it about physical and functional demands of a referee's role in a match that you're designing for, as opposed to, again, a soccer cleat, or what a trail runner? Or just a running shoe? What is it specifically that you were trying to design for into the shoes that are now the Imperium?
Speaker 2:Sure, one of the demands is that players typically are playing for a game a day. Maybe in a tournament they're playing two games a day. Referees, for the most part we know, are doing upwards of four, five I've heard more than that games a day. A cleat outsole the outsole is the bottom part of the shoe. For those who aren't watching, I'm pointing to it on the Ampiro the cleats outsole. Traditional cleat is plastic, thick and unyielding as far as movement, and one of my friends and advisors is a doctor of orthopedic surgeon. He was a US Olympic team doctor, dr Ben Jackson, and he's been a good buddy that I can always call and ask questions about, and I did when we were designing the shoe. Hey, does your foot need to flex? Why is this important? Where do you need support? Actually Getting away from just breaking the traditional mold no pun intended but creating a shoe with this rubber outsole that flexes that's the key One of the keys. Rubber outsole that flexes that's the key One of the keys. It flexes and your foot can move, which helps your body from all the way from your foot to the top of your head, shoulders, back, everything. And I can't say. I'm not a doctor, but I do have people messaging me saying hey, man, I used to have shin splints. Man, I have plantar fasciitis. These shoes helped. People have told me that I cannot say on this podcast oh, medically, these are better. We are working on that, though Solves a problem of a referee doing multiple games. It also solves a problem of a referee who travels to games and doesn't want to bring, like I said, four or five different pairs of shoes because they don't know. You can have a team email you. Hey, tomorrow we're playing on our turf field. You show up? Oh, turf field's under construction. The grade wasn't set right, so now it's wet, so now they're moving to their grass practice field. But you brought a flat because it was supposed to be a dry, sunny day. Oops, now it rained and now you're slipping all over wearing a flat because you just brought your running shoe.
Speaker 2:So this feels like a running shoe, is as comfortable as a running shoe but grips like a cleat. And if people want to go to our Instagram, there's a video where we take Brooke, world Cup assistant referee, world Cup final. She's on Tori's crew and Brooke. We do a side by side. She's running in an Imperial. She does a 20 yard shuttle run. She stops, and then we side by side with a running shoe. She slips like off the camera screen, stops, and then we side-by-side with a running shoe. She slips like off the camera screen almost, and then we do it in a cleat. The cleat and the umpiro stop right on a dime.
Speaker 2:So my point is if you could have the grip of a cleat, why would you not have the comfort of a running shoe? The other problem it solves is again to a running shoe on the top. You don't look like you belong in the sport of soccer and we're so used to seeing it referees wearing a running shoe, but it doesn't. You don't look like the players. And, coming back to what I said long time ago, if you're wanting to warm up like the players, you show up early like the players, you match prep like the players, you study the teams because the players are doing it Again, how can you control? Do I look like a player? Do I look like an athlete? So that's why we have this leather upper. The leather upper was just more supportive in lateral movement.
Speaker 2:A lot of feedback sent like prototypes all over the country to friends that are, and I said, hey, just rip this thing apart. Tell me what's wrong with it. And we finally got to our production model. That was our Gen 1 shoe, and then we developed even more to our Gen 2 shoe, which I'll lightly touch on. Information is on our Instagram, I don't need to. I'd love to talk about it. But the Gen 2 shoe we just made it better.
Speaker 2:The inside is synthetic. It's a synthetic liner, so it's lighter, especially when it gets wet. The insole is removable, so this thing pops out really easily so you can put. If you do have a custom orthotic, you can throw that in there. We actually hardened the outsole rubber by 5% so it will last a little bit longer before these nubs wear down. We supported inside. We supported these athletic stress points on the toe box that always tear in our favorite shoes, so these are more sturdy. There's a couple of things we reinforce the lace eyelets, but anyway, that's Gen 2. So the point is I tried to solve a problem that I had as a referee and it turns out it's a problem a lot of other referees have, and so that's what our shoe does. That's so cool.
Speaker 1:So I know also as a referee, we face criticism and stresses on and off the field. How do you think, like the hero, can help improve a referee's confidence, whether it's their confidence in their performance, like physical performance, but also confidence again in that presence on the pitch?
Speaker 2:I don't think you can referee great if you don't feel great. And I, physically, I'm sure we've all been out on the field and you're warming up and somebody's oh, I'm not feeling so good, my, my knees are tight, my back hurts, or you feel like you're gonna slip and slide.
Speaker 1:There's nothing worse than you're worried about. I'm gonna slip, I'm gonna tear something to pull something and whatnot, or I've been in a game.
Speaker 2:you had a game, a USL game, and as we're warming up I was this was before I had these shoes and I had warmed up in a like a turf shoe. As we're warming up, the sprinklers come on and I slip during the warmup and I didn't injure myself. But I said to the guys. I said, hey, I got to go change real quick and went into the locker room and put on cleats. At the time I didn't have these, but there's a mentality of I am prepared for this game.
Speaker 2:How can you be confident if you're not prepared and you don't feel prepared? So these help me and supposedly others who told me it does help them feel prepared because they're walking out to the field and they know, man, my feet are going to be right under me. This whole time I had text messages multiple, but one of my favorites is a referee said man, I had a high school game tonight, raining, players were slipping all over the place and I was steady on my feet the whole 90 minutes because of shoes, which is amazing. It's incredible to get feedback like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's actually really cool. I've had the experience of wearing the Imperial on a turf field. Not all players have multiple sets of cleats that they wear. They got one set of cleats On a lot of turf fields. Those fields either don't have enough depth to the turf that it almost feels, even though it looks like grass, it feels like you're running on concrete.
Speaker 2:Because underneath those little rubber balls is concrete.
Speaker 1:That's right and I've had it when I put on cleats. It feels like you're running on stilts out there, like you really don't feel connected. And it's nice when you've got something that's really made for that type of environment. That feels more like a turf shoe. You got grip and you feel connected to the ground and it's a really big deal. Whether you're a referee in the middle or an ar, let me tell you I have bit it as an ar, like you're running down the pitch following play, someone scores and you immediately stop to try and turn and run back up to the pitch.
Speaker 2:I mean, I remember the first time I did a game. I did a game in the prototype and it was a ACC game and this I remember. First game in the shoes, and it's the test shoes prototypes and it started raining. There was a mist on the field and I'm like, okay, today's the day we're going to find out, and I'm wearing the first heroes and I was running and this player had to cut in across in front of me and, and I was at a full sprint and I remember stopping, I didn't think about, oh man, I hope these shoes grip. But man, I remember when I go wow, and the player ran right in front of me to go cut across and get a ball, and I remember thinking, man, I really have something here, because I stopped on a dime in the rain on a field with wet on top of it. It was a a really big, at least, booster for me representing this brand, knowing man, these things are, these are great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have to tell you as a a middle-aged man and I can say that confidently now, as I enter my 50th year, I worry about falling and I worry about my knees, I worry about my ankles, I worry about just slipping quickly and all of a sudden I've pulled a groin muscle or something like that or a hammy, you name it.
Speaker 1:I, what I like now is I feel a lot more confident when I'm out there, that I'm going to be able to control my motion, and it gives me a greater feeling that I can, or a feeling that I can perform and do what I want to do on the pitch and not have to be worried about sliding around out there and potentially hurting myself. But, leland, I got one last question for you before we wrap things up. I love this idea of referee, specific innovation and that you're created as a referee. You've created something for referees. I just want to ask, like you like, how do you feel that you're creating something that is helping improve the lives of referees? How?
Speaker 2:do you feel about that? Pause, I'm taking it all in, I'm thinking about it. If it helps referees, it's incredible and it seems to be doing that. It's incredible. I don't know what to say. I think we all find little problems and we find these little hacks that work for us.
Speaker 2:I remember when I was conceptualizing like man, can I make a shoe? Which we briefly touched on the crazy journey that was. I was really just trying to solve a problem for myself and then talking to other referees and people going, yeah, man, I have problems with that too, or my feet hurt. So it's. The real reward is when I get pictures sent to me like, hey, are those your shoes? This ref is doing my kid's game.
Speaker 2:That's huge and I my goal beyond the shoes I know you didn't ask this, but my goal is that we were able to we're able to stop referee from having long-term pain, which we're working on data and we're going to do a study just in the planning stages of it now, but where I want to see if we can compare things like injury rates with cleats and injury rates with a running shoe or an Ampiro, because it's my belief that this shoe functions as well as a cleat and we show it on video again side by side with the World Cup official. So the solving more into can we help referees have longer careers without hurting themselves in a cleat that's not made to be in all day and do a bunch of games?
Speaker 2:I don't know if that's an answer to your question.
Speaker 1:No, man, I know we talked the. That's an answer to your question. But no, man, I know we talked the other night, but you sent me something that I loved. It was like all grip, no gripe. We shouldn't have to suffer out there to be able to do our job. Well, Leland, I sincerely appreciate what you've done. Honestly, I have so much respect for the entrepreneurs out there who are creating products for people trying to solve problems. Thank you so much for taking the time to share your story with us today on the Reps you Love To podcast. Thanks for having me. This was great. Hey, one last question, man when can people buy Empiro Super?
Speaker 2:complicated Empirocom.
Speaker 1:U-M-P-I-R-Ocom. That's it. It's also available, should we say, on Official Sports, as well yeah, Official Sports is our official distributor.
Speaker 2:So if they go to Empirocom and click the Buy Now button, it'll link you to OSI.
Speaker 1:Yes, and so, just to help everyone out there, if you're interested in Empiros, use the code REFSNEEDLOVETO and you will get 10% off. By the way, guys, I think these shoes are a deal at where they're currently priced. I've told Leland a number of times that he's underpricing them, so get them while they're low priced, as is, and you can also get 10% off if you use the code REFSNEEDLOVETOO. All right, guys, I hope you enjoyed today's pod.
Speaker 1:Entrepreneurs and small business owners are the lifeblood of our economy and our community. We should be supporting the people who care about us and are willing to invest in us by creating products that improve our lives. I'm not against amazon or other big box retailers, but they also have some serious negative consequences to our society and our most marginalized communities. Support a local business and a fellow referee like Leland. He deserves it and his product is phenomenal. Also, please check out the Refs Need Love 2 store online. Check out my fun referee socks. They are so cool and if you are going back to the office five days a week like a lot of people, you might as well be rocking some fun socks to make your day a little bit brighter. You will not find them anywhere and again everything gets poured back into making this channel possible. I wish you all the best and I hope your next match is red card free. We'll see you next time.