REFS NEED LOVE TOO
An honest perspective from the 3rd team on the pitch... the referees. Through humor, analysis and education, we are slowly changing how people view referees and officials in all sports. We care and have a love for the game as much as any player or coach. Sometimes even more. Youth soccer (proper football) is a multi-billion $ industry in the US. Tremendous money is spent on players, competitions, travel etc., but almost nothing spent on developing the next generation of referees. I hope that this Podcast inspires, educates and humanizes the next generation of referees for their own development and appreciation from the players, coaches and spectators they need to work alongside.
REFS NEED LOVE TOO
From World Cups to Grassroots: Kari Seitz's Vision for Refereeing at U.S. Soccer
Kari Seitz, one of the most distinguished figures in soccer officiating, unravels the secrets of her trailblazing career in our latest episode. As the Vice President of Referees for US Soccer and the former FIFA head of refereeing for women, Kari's insights are a treasure trove for anyone passionate about the beautiful game. With her unparalleled experience at four World Cups and three Olympic Games, she has a one-of-kind perspective as she shares her strategies for advancing refereeing in the U.S.
The landscape of refereeing has undergone immense transformation, and Kari takes us through this evolution with a focus on empowering female referees. She candidly discusses the hurdles faced in earlier decades and how performance excellence helped overcome gender biases. Kari's dedication is evident in initiatives like the Women's Initiative, which aims to uplift female representation among referees. We also explore the impact of technology on the sport, showcasing the continual advancements shaping the field today.
This episode doesn't shy away from addressing the pressing issue of referee abuse and how US Soccer's new policies are set to tackle these challenges head-on. Kari passionately advocates for education and better support systems for grassroots referees, emphasizing the critical need for community involvement in creating a safer soccer environment. By encouraging more individuals to take up referee courses, she paves the way for a more inclusive and understanding soccer culture. Join us for a conversation that not only highlights Kari's remarkable leadership but also envisions a future where refereeing is a respected and essential pillar of soccer worldwide.
important podcast I think I've ever done. Today, guys, we have Harry Seitz, us Soccer's VP of Refereeing. We are going to cover her amazing career the most successful referee ever on this planet Okay, no joke. And we're going to dive deep into her priorities for US Soccer from referee standpoint and, of course, the brand new and updated referee abuse policy. But before I do that, guys, I'm going to get into my sponsors. Just briefly, I want to say one thing All three of the companies that I'm going to be talking about as sponsors were founded by referees and make products specifically for referees.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's not a coincidence. I support people who support referees and develop things for me and for you and our community, not only here in the U? S but around the world. The first one I want to talk about real quick the Umpiro shoe brand, leland grant. Okay, referee was a national referee, now a national referee coach.
Speaker 1:Okay, he has developed his own line of footwear specifically designed for referees, specifically designed for refs like people like you and me who've got to go out on the pitch every week, no matter what the surface is you never know what the field conditions and he's designed like a really cool looking pair of boots I don't want to call them cleats and they're not turf shoes. They're like someplace in between, some hybrid that really work and they look good. Hey guys, it is relatively inexpensive when you look at high-end cleats or boots like. High-end cleats these days are like 200 bucks for the best ones out there, and my hokas are like $169. Now, if you use my code refs need love too on officialsportscom. Okay, and you get them. I think they're like $106. One thing I'll just tell you I find that they do run a little narrow. They do have a wides for the Umpiro Pros and I had to size up. Normally I wear either a nine and a half or a 10, and I wound up getting a 10. So please check them out. Support Leland, you will not be disappointed. These shoes are freaking awesome. They look great, they feel great. All grip, no gripe. Check them out. Okay. Second referee created company Okay.
Speaker 1:Ref six, the app that everyone needs to manage your game. I will tell you your watch and knowing how much time has elapsed, how much time is remaining, being able to manage your score all on your watch and not have to worry about a pen running out of ink which has happened to me on a number of occasions Getting all of those stats, post-match to look at your heat map and your sprints. And now they're starting to integrate with other platforms. A signer has actually just now integrated with Ref6, and you get all your game information right into your app. It's amazing. Love it. Definitely. Again, the code on that one is refs need love and you can get 10% off your monthly or annual subscriptions. Definitely, check it out. Okay.
Speaker 1:Last one and this is a newer app on the scene but so important If you are an assigner you need to be checking out refer sports. It makes referee management and assigning easy and it makes life simple for referees and native on a mobile app so you manage your games on the go. Okay, it's modern, it's sleek, it's user-friendly. You know where you need to be, you know what you're getting paid, you know where your crew is, the rules of competition. It makes accepting, accepting games easy, putting in your availability easy and it's 100 free for assigners. Again, refer sports, r-e-f-r sports. Tell them I sent you. And now time for the show. Hello and welcome to the refs. Need love to a show that gives you a real, raw and behind the scenes view of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch the referee. I'm your host, david Gerson, a grassroots referee and a certified mentor with over 10 years of experience and over 1300 matches under my belt. You can find me at refsneedlovetocom, on Insta, on TikTok and now on YouTube needlovetocom on Insta, on TikTok and now on YouTube. Today, we are going to be interviewing none other than Carrie Seitz, vice President of Referees for US Soccer.
Speaker 1:Carrie had a career that spanned over 29 years. She officiated at all levels of soccer in the USA, starting with youth, amateur, professional, international, college, high school, you name it. She has officiated in all USA professional leagues between 99 and 2014, including the MLS, wusa, nwsl, wps, and she refereed at not one, not two, not three, but four World Cups and three Olympic Games. She is the only referee, male or female, to officiate at four World Cups. She officiated the Women's Championship for three confederations. She was the FIFA head of refereeing for women from 2016 to 2024, based in Zurich, switzerland, and her biggest achievement was that she had six women reffing at the World Cup in Qatar the first time in the 92-year history of that competition. That selection was based on merit and quality. Currently, she is the VP of refereeing at US Soccer, which she started in April of last year. Carrie, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. Wonderful to be here.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, it is such a pleasure. I've been dreaming about this conversation for a long time on the podcast and I'm just so thrilled that we can finally make this happen. Gary, I live and dream and breathe refereeing, so this is a really big deal for me. I'm excited, very excited.
Speaker 2:I'm excited to be here with you. You have an energy and an excitement around officiating that I would say may be second to none. So happy to be part of that.
Speaker 1:Let's take a step back. We have a lot of things that we're going to talk about here today. We're going to talk about your goals at US Soccer for referees. We're going to talk about the brand new referee abuse policy that's rolling out in the very beginning of the next month. But first I want to go back. You've had an unbelievable career officiating four four Women's World Cups and three Olympic Games, something no other referee has done. I'm just curious what do you attribute your success to have such a long career as a referee life that I lived and then I moved into supporting refereeing.
Speaker 2:First of all, living in the United States, was my secret sauce from the international perspective, when you think about the opportunities women had early on, that really didn't exist anywhere else in the world when it was such an amazing team. I had more opportunities than other people had and I took full advantage of it Every minute, every time I was on the field. As you go up in your career, first you're surrounded by your small area where you work in referee and you love it, and then you meet more people and realize the world is bigger. At some point in your career you think I could travel around the world doing this. What must I do to make that possible? The difference between a good referee and a great referee ends up being the details, the small details that make the difference in you standing out. I always focused on those details and that probably was my secret. Every rock I would underturn to find out. What am I not doing? What could I do better? Refereeing evolves right. The game changes, we change. You always have to be hungry.
Speaker 1:And I feel that way still in my new job, and for me that's the discipline or medium is it's like the more you don't know, there's always something new to learn, there's always room for improvement. And it sounds like you're talking about these details. You are constantly looking what could I be doing better, how could I improve, and that is just. It's one of these. I think it's almost counterintuitive. We think the best are always the best, but it's no. The best are the best at becoming the best.
Speaker 2:They keep on working to get better every time. You know, you don't know. Yeah, I think that's important to be aware of and that's one great thing. This is not a static thing that we do. It continues to and the game changes right, and so we have to change, so that I would say would be my secret if there was a secret.
Speaker 1:I think that's great advice. I do have a question, though. So, as a woman and we've seen that the women's game has transformed in the last 10 years in terms of professional leagues and notoriety and attendance it's amazing, but when you were coming up as a referee, talk about pioneer and the game wasn't as respected and celebrated as it is today.
Speaker 2:What were some of the obstacles that you faced and how did you go about overcoming them? Until the late 90s was mostly because there wasn't a lot of women. There were very few women referees. On one hand, it was annoying because people assumed right away and it's still true, they assume that you have less ability. I used those very low expectations to my benefit. Right, I didn't have to jump as high to exceed the expectations because the assumption was that she's not going to be that good. My focus was really letting my whistle do my talking for me. While it would be infuriating that I was treated badly and that every time I went to the game I had to earn my reputation, if I focused on the whistle doing the work, then I would change the behavior pretty quickly.
Speaker 2:Ultimately, the issue is never the players and the coaches. So you have suffered some abuse in the minutes. They were learning what you could and couldn't do. But the real challenge of being a female referee at the time and I actually think this is still a bit true it's actually the other referees and the referee assigners. They actually make the environment the most difficult. They're also great people, but those were the biggest challenges existed. So your own team not supporting you on the field, the assigners not giving you those opportunities. When you let the whistle do the work, the players and the coaches were like OK, she gets it, but it was really the people around you and that can be the hardest part, because that's your referee family. These are the people that are meant to support you, but I really feel the power of wanting to change that culture. We have a lot of work still to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's fascinating. Again, I know we're now in the year 2025, but I got to tell you, some of my female colleagues are some of the best game managers, right In terms of being able to really communicate, being confident and owning it out there, but being able to lay down the law, but also have conversation and dialogue in a way that people can accept it. One of these things, though you, as a pioneer, had to demonstrate that, as a woman, you could do this not just with women, but with men. There weren't those examples out there. Now it seems we've got many more examples that young women can work to. Can we just talk a little bit? I know that you're also running a number of clinics right now specifically for female referees. What is the goal of doing camps like that for these female referees? What are you trying to do through those camps?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we have something called the Women's Initiative. Any female referee in the United States can sign up to be a part of it. Essentially, we recognize that there's a history. In general, there are not enough referees in the United States. For the amount of games we can't quite quantify it because we don't actually know how many games are being played, but we also know games are being canceled and there aren't enough match officials, right? So, with that being true, you want to look at it from a pragmatic point of view. You look around and say where could we get more people? 51% of all people are women and only 22% of referees are female. So obviously there's something amiss, especially with the number of women that play football. Pragmatically, you say there's a whole host of people that aren't involved. What's going on to people that aren't involved? What's going on?
Speaker 2:The idea is to bring issues to light, be able to talk what are the challenges you face and then help address them so that we can get more women on the field. At some events, we're actually paying for some of the girls to come out who might be limited in opportunities for the same reasons I was. So we don't think you can do it, so we don't give you the chance. We're looking around for the talent and trying to motivate them to stay in the game and, frankly, we're learning. What are the things that we need to change in the way US soccer is structured, the way the states are structured, the programs that we put in place that can bring more women in, but also more minorities? This is not just about women, it's also about minorities. We're really all the underrepresented groups. Where can we find more referees? This is a great place to start, so it's all connected.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a thousand percent agree. All right, I've got a little bit of a fun question for you, just about your referee career. Refereeing has evolved a lot, as billions of dollars have been funneled into it and now the highest played sports players in the world are now football players. So there's more technology now. We got VAR, we got like 20 different camera angles, plus, everyone's got a phone in the arena as well. We've got goal line technology, semi-automated offside. Is there a specific technology available today that you had when you were a referee, when you were on the pitch?
Speaker 2:Or wish I had it.
Speaker 1:When you wish you had it.
Speaker 2:So you're refereeing a game on television. Right, picture yourself doing that. David, you're out there, you're whistling the game, you make a decision, you're confident, you're not guessing. If you're guessing, it's very educated guess. And then you go home and you find out you're wrong. No-transcript. Great opportunity and something that probably could have done more in my career.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's fascinating, even the players and coaches. Now they've got iPads on the sideline and they're seeing those replays as soon as a call is made. It's not you guys are in your own little bubble on the pitch and the players and the coaches on the pitch know what, has, seen all the angles and has different, more information than you do as the referee, so it's nice to have that. Second look, I got a question for you.
Speaker 1:We talked a little about the female referees, but we do have still today 80% of referees that are falling out of the referee ranks within three to four years for a number of different reasons. But if you had a referee come to you who was really interested in staying in the game, wants to climb the ranks and I get this question literally two, three times every day from a young referee hey, what do I do to get better? What do I need to advance? What do I need to do forward? What advice do you have for young referees, especially women, who are interested and want to continue refereeing and move up? What advice would you give them?
Speaker 2:When I think about the future, I imagine a very different state, right where the pathway will be more clear. It's going to take work with my team and the US soccer community to do that, but that is a goal In the short term. Refereeing is a hard job. It's a really hard job. I'm glad you didn't ask me why I do it, because it's a hard one to answer. You can't do it alone. You really need support, a support system, a person, a group of people and for a number of reasons you need one. Because knowledge, asking questions, learning, more advice on how to deal with difficult situations, the stress you can take home, especially after a difficult match with difficult parents, difficult sideline or being treated badly by your colleague or the press you have to unload that. You have to get that off your chest, otherwise you cannot continue. It's really too much. You have to create a support system for yourself. That's the way to navigate. Because there is not a clear path, somebody is going to guide you. I would go to this game and this assigner rather than this game and this assigner. So it's not a magic bullet, but I guarantee you you will not have success with creating a support system for yourself, Even if that means being a local referee doing the best they can. You need to find a way to get some of this off your chest, otherwise you will not return to the field, unfortunately For me.
Speaker 2:I always talk about finding support, finding your team behind you as a really important way. For a kid it can be their family, but likely it's a mentor of some kind, or two mentors, somebody who really cares about you and will go out and look at your match and give you some advice. Those are the things that keep you motivated. Here there was a gentleman, without any sort of requirement, walked around the fields and supported people. He gave me the advice to stay.
Speaker 2:Not advice, carrie, stay, but here, do this, hold your flag this way. Oh, you could have done this, because often we're on our own out there. Not every game you're getting an evaluator or somebody to support you, and that changed my life. This person changed my life. I would not be here today without that person. Along the way I moved or got older, I outgrew that person in a way from a standpoint of what they could offer for their knowledge, and I always was seeking people to support, because there's a lot of great people in the US, and we have to know that there are people passionate about this and want you to be successful, so don't be afraid to ask.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's great advice. That's actually one of the main things that I say to someone looking to move up Do you have a mentor? If you can ask your assigner to assign you with some of the top refs in your area, work a line, watch what they do, listen to them, see where they move, see how they deal with people, see how they communicate it's so important. I do think it is a challenge. If there's no one in your family who's a referee, they won't understand.
Speaker 1:Honestly, don't go back because you've dealt with some dissent or something like that and I see it. You get these kids who come to become a referee at 14, 15, 16 years old. They can't talk to their friends about it if they're not referees and their family doesn't get it. And I think that is such a great thing. Seek out a mentor, find some people that you can talk to. Find some people you can work some matches to get some proper feedback, some developmental feedback, some guidance, and that is a really wonderful thing. All the states that I hear about across the US who have these junior referee programs where there's mentors at the pitch, they have unbelievable success in being able to retain they're the best and just also creating your own network.
Speaker 2:As you said, my husband is not into refereeing, but he's into supporting me, so I can just say something and he listens. I don't always need advice, I just want somebody to listen. But when we think about these networks, especially what we're doing around the women is you sign up? You may not get selected to an event we can't afford to send every female to an event but we are also creating these networks. So they have some informal groups where they're chatting and helping each other sort out the issues, right, you can't always rely on the leadership to have every answer. They are amongst themselves giving each other advice, et cetera, and I think that works for young people. You find your tribe.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, all right. So now, carrie, I know you've only been in the job since April of last year. Usually I think you get like some grace in the first 90 to 180 days, but you're beyond that. Now, carrie, Do you have a say? What would be your top three goals? What's your agenda, kind of the top three things that you want to work on as the person representing referees at US soccer, what would be the big three, big four, that you're working on?
Speaker 2:Yeah, first of all, I do have a mission. The mission underlines everything. Essentially, I believe that we need to establish refereeing as an essential part of the success of soccer in the US. Okay, there needs to be this understanding Without the referee, you're not going to have competitive matches. We're going to have a World Cup come here, a club World Cup. We're going to have an Olympics. Eventually, hopefully, the Women's World Cup comes back. Soccer will grow and if we don't have enough referees to do that, then that all falls apart. So we need the community to understand. So I want to establish refereeing as an essential part of soccer success in the US. We know it's true, but the rest of the organization needs to understand that, and when you do that, you're going to make it an appealing avenue for people to participate and give back to the sport. So, fundamentally, we have to do that and that's a culture shift right, which is something I worked really hard on on the women's side at FIFA. We have to change the culture around being a referee. So that's the underpinning right. So you'll see that we have some new referee awards, for example.
Speaker 2:Let's acknowledge the work that this group does. We're not a secret. Now we're going to be part of the annual general meeting. Referee had never been at a face there, and now we will. On top of that, we have some key priorities. Now we will.
Speaker 2:On top of that, we have some key priorities. One is improving the refereeing pathway. This is coaches and referees. We need to make it clear, transparent, motivational, rewarding right To work your way up, to enhance your skills. I don't need everyone to be a pro referee or FIFA referee, but to be a better referee every day. You're out there, right To really want to excel and on the coaching side as well, we need to create a better pathway for them. We've already done a lot of work there. We're going to be introducing this new pathway so we can get more mentors and keep quality people who have excelled in the program, because a lot of them ran away at some point. We're going to keep them in the program, so we want to do more of that. So that's the first one improving the referee pathway. Then we need to reduce the barriers to become a referee. We need to make it easier to sign up, to get yourself out on the field. In some places, to sign up to be a referee costs $125.
Speaker 1:That's just the fee. Yes, yes, go on and it goes up. I think in some places $150 if you don't get it in time.
Speaker 2:Yes, the economy around refereeing needs help. It needs a lot of work. We are the only group that really pays for ourselves. You pay for fields, you pay for jerseys, pay for refereeing, and not just to have them on the field but to develop them. We need to create a safer working environment, which we'll talk more about, and a policy is part of that. We need to have an emphasis on education. We need it to be clear, practical, up-to-date and soccer forward. We need to improve the support of our referee administration. We're going to re-look at all the tools and systems and invest to make that smoother.
Speaker 2:The referee is at the center. And last is really this idea of strengthening our referee program together and again that ties back to the mission right? So us meaning all the states. We don't need to create 55 different states with 55. I'm not saying that you need local refereeing, but the program should be more similar and there's a lot of inefficiencies by recreating Every 55 states have a handball presentation and they're all different. This is more what I'm talking, but strengthening our program together. That's saying we're us soccer referees. Why can't we have the best program in the world? So those are some of the key priorities. There's a lot to do, so we have to find the magic. How do you prioritize?
Speaker 1:yeah, no, it sounds like I mean there's so much to take on I I do want to ask a follow-up question on the pathway. It's near and dear to my heart. So right now the pathway is if everyone's grassroots, it seems like you've got to do adult matches at a very high level competitive level to move to another level. Will there be a pathway specifically for grassroots referees who just want to do youth matches?
Speaker 2:The short answer is yes.
Speaker 1:Great.
Speaker 2:How we do that. I have some ideas Right now. There's a couple issues with the way we're organized. 98% of the referees are in the exact same status. Right, I did one game, you did 10,000 games. We're the same level, right? Not very motivating for a referee, not very rewarding, also very difficult for an assigner. Unless they know you, they can't tell the difference. We used to have steps, different levels, within that. We want to make sure that we do it in an effective way, efficient. So we're going to spend some time to get back to find a way that we can create a rewarding model that provides insight to our assigners In other countries. The way that works is you actually get promoted step by step, and that promotion isn't just a badge. The promotion is that it applies to the games that you are now certified to officiate. So I'm at a good enough skill set that I can now go to the next level. What does that do? That manages their development in a step-by-step model that allows more likely to be successful.
Speaker 2:So we need to look at all of those options and also reward people who put that extra effort in to go to another class, who really care to better themselves. It's not just time and grade, but it's like effort and motivation. So all that will be considered as part of improving the refereeing pathway.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that so much. For someone like me who's been at it for 10 years and works their butt off to be the best I can be I'm at that entry-level grassroots having something that says this person is qualified to work at this level and they've been at it for a long time and they've made these promotions, it's fantastic. But I will also say it may help us avoid the situation of putting referees in situations they're not ready for, which happens all the time. They're being put in charge of age groups and levels of games that they're not ready for, but they just get thrown into and it winds up being a very negative experience for them and for everyone. I think that's going to be really important. I do have a follow-up question, because you mentioned something and I don't know if I understand the term. Can you talk just briefly more about what soccer forward is? You talked about that in terms of training and development. What did you mean by soccer forward?
Speaker 2:Talking about is this idea of not looking at the laws in a strictly law book format, but to think about the game of soccer while we're so putting soccer inside of the way that we talk about the game very practical. For example, we have a presentation this might be a little bit more senior referees, but eventually it will make it applicable to every level. But we talk about positioning and reading the game. The benefit of reading the game allows you to be in a position to make a good decision. How do you do that? You understand how the player is standing, how they dribble the ball, where they're going to pass, what are their options are, what clues do you have for a short corner kick or a long corner kick?
Speaker 2:Most referees are players and they inherently know that, and then we scare that knowledge out of them. But actually I want to keep that what you know about the game. We should be applying more to refereeing. I think we can be better referees if we think about the game and make decisions based on the game needs. So that's where we're going to figure out how to bring that closer. We did it at FIFA. I think it works on every level. So that's what I mean by soccer forward. It's about how we think about the game and refereeing.
Speaker 1:Great. Now I want to transition to the news of the day. The big thing that I know you've been talking about and I've been talking about, and it's been causing a lot of waves, is the new US soccer referee abuse policy that goes into effect at the beginning of March. Let's talk a little bit about why. First off, why is this coming out? Is it new? Is it updated? Why are we doing this? Why is US soccer, at the national level, coming out with a referee abuse policy?
Speaker 2:Great questions. I think the first thing to know is that there was a referee abuse policy. Most people didn't know. Not many people are searching policy. How can I read more about policies? But it does exist. But the policy was very broad. It was a lot of gray. Now this space will have gray in it, for sure, but there was an acknowledgement that I said early on, I think, which is we're short referees.
Speaker 2:If we know that 60% of referees say I'm out of here because of abuse, one of the ways to keep referees, very simply, is to change what's happening on the pitch, and we believe that it's significant increasing the level of abuse to our referees physically, non-physical. We don't have all the numbers because the reporting is really localized, but, david, you know better than anyone with the videos right, you probably have even a bigger handle than we do. If our goal is to increase the number of referees to stay up with the growth of soccer, this has to be one of the things that we look at. The idea was let's go in and see what we can do to make it work harder. There are going to be three phases. Phase one was really defining who is covered, so it's the referee, it's also an emergency referee. Somebody has to take a slip. There was an emergency and a club linesman has to jump in, but also the support staff behind. So if you have an assessor there and they're abused, they count right. It's also when you arrive at the field and you're being taunted when you get at the parking lot or on your way out, or then being doxxed later online. So it covered all of that.
Speaker 2:Then phase two really was about the matrix around the penalties, right, what can we tolerate and what we don't tolerate?
Speaker 2:And, ultimately, why is refereeing the only sport on the planet where you can touch somebody and get away with that beyond something intended like a handshake or something that you would accept?
Speaker 2:There are very few jobs in the world that any of the kinds of abuse what happens on the field is not reflective of real life. So this is a strengthened policy and by creating it more defined, this is a big step to say we support this community, they're important and we need to do something to change the mentality. So what's really important for you to know we support this community, they're important and we need to do something to change the mentality. So what's really important for you to know, david, is a policy, is not a sexy thing, it's not a big, but it is foundational. It sets a toll for how we want to deal with this issue. Then we have to unpack it and develop a lot of things around, not just communication but also programs. Programs like this policy is really focused on the field. This is about the technical area and the players. We need support from the clubs and leagues locally on what they're going to do with the spectators.
Speaker 1:Carrie, are there any programs or training to help coaches learn about how they're supposed to behave or keep a safe sideline or safe environment for players and referees?
Speaker 2:There's this really cool pilot program that US Soccer has initiated. It's got a few thousand people involved. It's a soccer clearance program. In this program you sign up and go through some training. You learn the background, how you're supposed to behave, also some other things as it relates to supporting players and really creating a safe environment. Then you get an ID. Essentially You're cleared to be safe at fields.
Speaker 2:Ultimately, if every person eventually has to go through a program like this, it's easy to identify a spectator. Those spectators can be removed from the field and then we can have some control. Right now it's an open field. It's very difficult, unless they're a spectator in a stands, to do anything. So that's one future program that can support referee abuse prevention because we'll be able to identify, track and manage who's at the field. But it also can be a safeguarding issue and benefit. That's a program that's really future state, but they've started piloting it and working and creating something I think could be really powerful. There's a lot of programs that need to go around. The policy is just the beginning, but now to say there's some, we have teeth right. We have real teeth here to deter and change behavior, based on the new penalty framework.
Speaker 1:Can you give a couple examples? So we're not going to go through the whole policy here and people can find the policy at ussoccercom slash RAP if you want to find the referee abuse policy in detail and the one pager and the full policy there and video on it. But, carrie, can you give us some examples of what's in there for those who haven't seen it? Carrie, for those who have not seen the full policy and if anyone's interested, you can download the full policy, watch the video on it, the one pager at ussoccercom slash RAP for the Refugee Abuse Policy. Can you give us some example of what's included in the policy as it relates to a certain behavior and the punishment, whether it's physical or non-physical? Can you give us just some flavor of what's in there?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I hope people check this out because I think it's incredibly interesting. There's a lot of things that we allow people to get away with. We, as referees, have allowed it for a long time. Simply, language that you might feel is belittling you, insinuating that you're cheating, taunting you in some way that undermines your authority. We have this example is you suck ref? Now, we don't want people to over get passionate about it or to really what's the word I'm looking for. You know, we don't need to have a soft skin either.
Speaker 1:We don't need to take it too literally, right?
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:And you've told me that referees still have the ability to manage a game as they seem fit, but it's an example of language that could be potentially something that could be Exactly, and it's all it's.
Speaker 2:It's also how it's said continuously. People are making these kinds of comments to you and you. You've had enough to insinuate that you're cheating the game. This is something you can certainly send. I actually have sent people out for we want to work on giving referees tools to manage some situations, but others, across the line, we give a red card for that minimum of two games.
Speaker 2:What's interesting also in the penalty framework, a couple of things that you have to see in the fine print is that we really want to protect our young referees. So a young referee, someone under 18, the kinds of language a parent would never allow their child to deal with, and they shouldn't ever speak to a child this way those will be triple punishment. We call it a minority multiplier. Or the case where someone has this kind of behavior, they're sent off. They do it a second time now it's double punishment. Or third time would be a lifetime ban, and so we're taking it very seriously. There's some really great examples in the materials, and I really encourage people to take a look at it. Things that you might have otherwise thought was a yellow card. There actually are abuse, and so we really want to take a stand.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the policy for those you go check this out and encourage everyone to do the punishments are a minimum of a two game suspension and then go up very significantly. If you're yelling at someone, I'm going to effing kill you. You're threatening someone's life. If I'm not mistaken, that might be six to 12 months and many games. It's very severe If you physically touch a referee, even just a minor poke in the chest in six games. If you actually strike someone, they're very severe punishments and doubled if it's for a minor, and I've never seen that before. I think that's one thing that referees is very refreshing for me.
Speaker 1:Kerry, I know that there was a policy before, but I had not seen it. Now we've got this policy that's been really well produced and easy to consume. It's getting out there and it's going to outline how serious the punishments are for these things. Now that brings us to the next point, the big thing, as this has started making the rounds on the referee message boards on Facebook and Reddit, as people are going like all right, they've created a new policy or they're communicating new policy, how's it going to be enforced? It's not worth anything if there's not going to be enforcement. How does this policy go from just words on a page or a PDF or a PowerPoint deck or a video to actually being enforced in our local communities.
Speaker 2:Excellent question. I do want to clarify something that you said. Mine or slight, deliberate touching, is three games and that's, or one to six months, which again some people might think that's a lot. But again, why are you touching the referee? Let's start there. Why are you touching the referee?
Speaker 2:When it comes to enforcement, I want to start by saying these are beautiful materials, really incredibly professionally done. When I was looking at this policy and what US Soccer has done in the past phase one we put the policy up on the website and hope for the best, but I really felt that the only way to actually have it enforced is to make sure that people know about it in a professional way. Kudos to Ref's Need Love. Who brought in their partners to help. Really, I don't want to say market, but actually create a professional look, easy and understandable and simple, that can relate to the whole soccer ecosystem. Frankly, I think that's one way it will be adopted, because you're not going to be able to say I didn't hear about it. These materials are easily shareable, so it's really fantastic work. Thank you, David, and your team from Fuel for putting this work together.
Speaker 2:What we want to do is lift the community up together and find partners who can help us. The first is to create really quality materials and to say that this is real, like we're investing in it and not just hiding it on a policy web page that you'll never look up. The next is to share it with all our members. We started with the members and now we're working on our affiliates and then we are sending it and we're asking them to share it. Everything in the policy materials that was created says please share. There'll be a lot of other things that we're going to do. We're going to have a station where you have to agree to it from a coaching perspective. We'll put it in the coaching licensing. We hope to have a large social media rollout, so there will be the pressure because the policy is actually required. Once the policy is out and known to be a member of US soccer, you have to follow this policy.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's really important. I think that is the big thing that a lot of people have been missing here have to follow the policy. Yes, this is a policy for the entire country if you are a member of US Soccer.
Speaker 2:That's right. You can make a stronger policy, but you cannot make a lesser policy. This is the baseline. If you are affiliated with US soccer, this does not apply to college, it does not apply to high school, right? I'm sure it does not apply to indoor soccer. This is not the professional policy, right? Although professional leagues will probably be looking at that as well. But if you are, this is it's not optional.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So again, if we're talking about your local academy or recreational matches, mls, next, ecnl, they all fall under either US club soccer or ECNL or US youth soccer, if they are under that umbrella. This policy covers those masses, this USSF sanctioned match, this policy covers that. And so let's go to the next phase. So let's say, something does happen. A referee fills out a report, and again, this is where it gets murky. Where do you fill out reports? Does it? Do you send an email to your signer? Do you go to your state soccer website? Where will these policies be used? Who's going to be using the policy to administer the punishment?
Speaker 2:the punishment? That's a great question. You can refer to the policy as a starting point and read all the legal jargon about where these go to. So, for every referee, if you don't have the supplemental report, ask your state referee administrator, ask your assigner. They can point you in the right direction, make that simple and then ask them where you send the report into. Sometimes it goes to your state referee committee, sometimes it goes to the event organizer, for example, if it's USYS, you send it to whoever organized that. Many times your assigner is going to be your point person.
Speaker 2:It is a little bit difficult to navigate for referees and maybe one of the reasons we don't get all the reports. But that is phase three. We're going to go through and do some due diligence about how is this adjudicated across the United States, what's the reporting mechanisms that people use and try to find and work to find a solution to make it easier for the referees to fill out the form, easier for the process to go through the right adjudication process process and then, finally, for us to have a good view, frankly, right. So if we are able to see these reports, we'll have a good view of where the problem areas, where we need to provide more resources or need to.
Speaker 2:Maybe it isn't being enforced as it should be. People are not reading the policy properly that we can actually address those things. So this is actually going to be the next significant work, but at least we have the teeth now and then we'll work through the administrative processes. But so right now, everything exists as it was, and if you don't know what it was, ask your signer where do I get the paperwork and fill that out? Or your state referee committee member, which you probably don't know who they are, but if you do, they can guide you, because each state is a little bit different and we're going to work to fix that. Clarify it.
Speaker 1:One thing a lot of people don't know is your assigner is licensed by US soccer, so they have to follow a policy to be an assigner of US soccer. If they don't, they can get in a lot of trouble. Coaches are licensed by US soccer. Players get their player cards through a US soccer sanction the player cards. Our referees are sanctioned by US soccer. Can we talk about the one thing that has been brought up a bunch? To me and I know it's something you've briefly mentioned as well the number one thing that people talk about and why they leave is the parent abuse, and so this policy covers coaches. It's covering players. It does not cover parents. Can you talk about why that is and what are you hoping through this policy, how parents might be involved in this? Can you talk about the parent piece a bit?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it can be a little bit frustrating, because that's probably where the biggest bulk of the problem lies. Frankly, if you, as referees I'm sure everybody here who will be listening has read the laws of the game or is a parent of somebody who has read them and you know that the responsibilities of the referee are the field right and the technical area, not beyond that.
Speaker 2:We technically do not have the power or authority over people outside the field, so this policy only covers where the referees have authority. That does not mitigate that any local club and league can create their policy on how to manage the behavior of the spectators and we would love them to use this policy as a framework for that right these same punishments. As a referee, you walk over there, you can send a guy off, but you don't know who that guy is. You didn't get their name. They don't have a player card. Until we have the soccer clearance program, which would be a benefit, that is really out of our jurisdiction I don't mean US soccer, but out of this jurisdiction of the referee.
Speaker 2:I do want to work very close. We have started a protocol like how, across every league and club, what's the protocol to deal with a spectator? In this case it would probably be going to a coach and making them deal with it, but we don't have that in writing consistently across the country. Ultimately, to answer your question, it is not actually in the authority of the referee to deal with the spectator Although don't tell all the spectators, because sometimes I see referees throwing them out and they leave, because you can say I'm not going to complete the game. But that's why the policy doesn't cover that and we really encourage the local communities to develop policies that and they can deal with the parents of spectators as they like.
Speaker 1:I would encourage referees listening to this. If you look at the referee policy and you hear any of the things verbally said that are in that policy, go talk to the coach and the coach dismisses that spectator. It's their job. I don't want people getting in confrontations with spectators.
Speaker 2:I agree with you, david, and I want that in writing. So every referee knows they're encouraged to do that. We don't have that in writing right now, but that is the right way to deal with it because it's their people.
Speaker 1:That's right. They're responsible for it. They got to take care of it. That's very important. Next question that I'd like to ask you is have you gotten any feedback at this point, because I know you were at the coaches convention in Chicago not long ago. Has there been any feedback from coaches about this new policy thus far, or the updated policy?
Speaker 2:Generally we've heard very positive things, but now that it's official I'm getting the sense that now is when some of the pushback will come, and generally it's whoa. This feels strict. Are you sure the referees aren't going to go overboard in giving red cards for every little thing? And I think that's a fair question, which is why we're going to need to follow up with some specific training around sideline behavior and help referees have a number of tools to deal with that. But generally, the feedback that we've heard so far is about time this has gotten out of hand. Thankfully, somebody is doing something. We'll see once the first punishment comes out if they change the tune, but right now I was shocked to see that in general it's really bad. Even they don't like it.
Speaker 1:I think it's actually going to be really helpful If I was a coach or a club director. It's like now I've got something really easy to consume that I can just send out to everyone. This is the policy. This is unacceptable. Don't do it. We don't want to see it from anyone. If I'm a club director, I'm sending the coaches guys, if you're suspended for three months, I don't need you because you're engaging this behavior. You need to make sure that learn this, understand this and you teach your players and your parents to respect this, because this is the rule of the land. This is what it is for US soccer, so I'm hoping that they take it and be like all right, now we've got guidelines, we know what the deal is. Let's move forward positively.
Speaker 2:And we can use those guidelines on the field. We say, look, you guys are aware of the policy, I do not want to have to send you off. Please work with me here. And if they don't, we send them off. And if they do, it's also a way that we can communicate because we know they're aware. So it can be another thing in our toolkit to help manage the sideline behavior.
Speaker 1:All right. One last question for you, carrie. I know you're very busy and I want to get you back to doing all the great things you're doing for US soccer and referees out there. But I know you are a traveling machine, literally. I see you at an event in California, an event in Florida, in Chicago. You're literally all over the place and you've been at a lot of the national coach events, national referee training events, all that kind of stuff For the 90,000 grassroots referees out there. If you could send a message to those grassroots refs out there who are not going to these advanced clinics or advanced trainings, what would you like to say to them?
Speaker 2:I think there's a. Whether you're grassroots or otherwise, first of all, you're important to the game. We need every single referee out there and more so bring your friends. You are important, right or wrong decisions, you deserve support, acknowledgement for the work that you do, and everybody should have this mentality. That's the number one thing. It probably feels like you're on an island alone, but are important and we care about you. You're going to see more and more of that. I'd also like to see more players and coaches and spectators and all these complainers to take a referee course.
Speaker 2:See more players and coaches and spectators and all these complainers to take a referee course Right. Sign up, do one game and go out, but see what it's like, because I think if we understand better one another's responsibilities.
Speaker 2:They want to have more conversations with our coaching staff. I recently did one with our coaching educators these people giving the AAC licenses. I was surprised how little they knew about the laws of the game. I showed examples and said is this a red card or yellow card, and why? And they were unable to answer. We need to have more dialogue. Because they said to me I had no idea. I know my coaches are complaining because they think something else. Right, they have the wrong information. Education is key. So if we can get more of these people out to take a course, I'll give you the course for free. We need to be creative and think of options. I'm not saying I'm giving them for free, but it could be something we think about. I want you to know that we are investing time and resources to transform refereeing. We want to grow the game and referees are important.
Speaker 1:Man. What a great message to end on there. Carrie, thank you so much for all that you are doing. I've been a referee for 10 years. I feel like you've done more in the eight months you've been in the job than in my last 10 years and I am so thankful, and speaking for all the referees out there.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for what you do. My pleasure Excited to be here and see what we can do to make this better for everyone.
Speaker 1:Excellent. All right, everyone. I hope you enjoyed today's pod. The new referee abuse policy is a critical step forward, not just for referees, but for the culture of soccer in this country, and I think other countries around the world are watching us. It's huge for the culture of football around the world. Beyond that, Carrie is the right leader at the right time for US soccer. I hope you guys enjoyed this conversation. She is absolutely working hard representing our community and I'm so thankful for her. Lastly, guys, please support the Refs Need Love 2 store online. Check out the gear and the clothing. I am helping you look good on and off the pitch. Remember everything gets poured back into making this channel possible. I wish you all the best and I hope your next match is red card free. We'll see you next time.