REFS NEED LOVE TOO
An honest perspective from the 3rd team on the pitch... the referees. Through humor, analysis and education, we are slowly changing how people view referees and officials in all sports. We care and have a love for the game as much as any player or coach. Sometimes even more. Youth soccer (proper football) is a multi-billion $ industry in the US. Tremendous money is spent on players, competitions, travel etc., but almost nothing spent on developing the next generation of referees. I hope that this Podcast inspires, educates and humanizes the next generation of referees for their own development and appreciation from the players, coaches and spectators they need to work alongside.
REFS NEED LOVE TOO
Changing the Game: The Renegade Lawyer Referee Ben Glass on Soccer's Culture Problem
What happens when we normalize abuse toward the most vulnerable members of our sports community? David Gerson, host of Refs Need Love Too, joins attorney Ben Glass on the Renegade Lawyer podcast to tackle one of youth sports' most pervasive problems—referee abuse and its devastating impact on officiating retention.
This raw, revealing conversation explores the alarming statistics: we've lost over 30% of certified soccer referees since 2019, with 80% of new officials quitting within three years primarily due to sideline abuse. David shares powerful personal stories, including the moment his teenage son nearly walked away from officiating after being confronted by an aggressive adult player, highlighting the human cost behind these numbers.
The discussion takes an encouraging turn as David reveals his behind-the-scenes work developing US Soccer's comprehensive new referee abuse policies. These groundbreaking guidelines establish clear boundaries between emotional expression and unacceptable behavior, with meaningful consequences—including triple sanctions when directed at minor officials. Meanwhile, states like Virginia are implementing landmark legislation making even verbal threats against officials a class one misdemeanor.
Both David and Ben, with over 60 combined years of officiating experience, offer practical wisdom for creating safer environments. They explore the puzzling double standard where children are protected as players but subjected to abuse as referees, and share strategies for addressing dissent before it escalates. Their conversation illuminates a path forward where respect for officials enhances the game experience for everyone involved.
Whether you're a parent, coach, player, or official, this episode offers actionable insights into breaking the cycle of abuse and building a youth sports culture that prioritizes both competitive excellence and human dignity. Subscribe to Refs Need Love 2 for more behind-the-scenes perspectives on transforming sports culture from the referee's vantage point.
There's no place for physically threatening someone's safety. There's no place for touching someone, unwanted touching or throwing things at someone. There's no place for that. It's not okay, especially when we're dealing with amateur and youth sporting events. No one can tell me that that is oh no, that's part of the game. No, it's not. I've read the laws of the game. I trust me. 99% of people have it and it's not in there. It doesn't say you can abuse the official, you can threaten the official, you can dox the official, you can hit the official. Whatever that is, it's not in it. You don't need it to play the game.
Speaker 2:It doesn't make the game better. I'm just trying to protect my players, Ref. Oh yeah, what do?
Speaker 1:you mean.
Speaker 1:I'm just trying to. You know I've heard it all. I'm just trying to protect the players. You know I'm trying to keep the Ref honest. You know, like, please, man. No, you're not helping anyone, you're certainly not helping the game. Hello and welcome to the Refs Need Love 2 podcast, a show that gives you a real raw and behind-the-scenes view of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch the referee. I'm your host, david Gerson, a grassroots referee and certified mentor with over 10 years of experience and over 1,300 matches under my belt. You can find me at refsneedlovetocom, on Insta, on TikTok and now on YouTube. We've got a fun podcast.
Speaker 1:This week I got to be a guest on Ben Glass's Renegade Lawyer podcast and you're probably thinking wait, why were you on a lawyer podcast? He's also been a referee for over 40 years in Virginia and he authored a book called quote you, a Teenage Soccer Referee a Guide to Success when, for the first time in your life, an adult who is not your parent, teacher or coach is screaming that you don't know what you're doing. Unquote, I kid you not. That is the title of the book. You can buy it on Amazon. It was a phenomenal conversation. I loved talking with Ben. I swear we could have talked for hours. We covered how I'm trying to lead the charge against sideline abuse, educating coaches and parents and helping US soccer implement real change. It's raw, it's real and I think it's an inspiring talk. If you care about kids, sports or building a better community, which I know you do, if you're listening to this podcast, you'll love this one. Before we get into the show, a few notes from sponsors and letters from the mailbag.
Speaker 1:First, on sponsors Ampiro Guys if you have not gone out and bought your Ampiro Pros yet I don't know why not I'm telling you it's a thing. They're light and flexible, so I feel like I can run all day in them. They work on any surface, so you don't need to carry multiple pairs of boots with you to the pitch. I can cut, move with confidence, no issues, whether it's turf or grass. They look freaking great and I'm a big believer. Look good, ref good. And they've recently added wides, because I have duck feet, so I need wide. And actually for these shoes my feet are like 4E, so you know these are like more of a 2E, so I actually had to buy them a whole size up, so I normally wear about a nine and a half or a 10, and I bought a 10 and a half wide and they fit perfectly.
Speaker 1:And lastly, you're supporting one of the nicest guys in the game. Leland Grant, who's the creator of Puro Shoes, is a referee, is a national referee, still does MISOA right now is a national referee coach, so he's been a referee for over 15 years. He's a wonderful guy based in nashville, invested over 50 000 making shoes for soccer referees for you, so the least you can do is try and support him. But when you do, use my code. Refs need love to. Okay, all one word, and it gives you a 10% discount on officialsportscom. That takes them from $118 to $106, which is almost 40% less than my HOKAs. My HOKAs cost $169 now and with the new tariffs from China I'm sure they'll be like $500. For gosh sakes. But definitely check out the Ampiro pros. Don't do the original umpiros. The umpiro pros were new and improved so much more flexible, beautiful. I love them in the all black. It's classic, it's cool. Please check them out and use my code. Refs need love too. And support leland, a fellow referee. Guys, I'm all about supporting fellow refs. Also, check out, refer. Okay, if you are an assigner or you work for an assigner. You don't like how they assign and they have crappy software. Refer them to Refr Sports R-E-F-R. It makes referee management and assigning easy. It makes life simple for you, the referee, because it's a native on mobile app platform. That's not like some of these other ones where they built an app later and it's awful, or they have no app at all. It is native on a mobile app. Okay, so now you know where you're going to be, what you're getting paid, who your crew is, rules of competition make accepting games easy, simple navigation in one app. And it's free for assigners. It's free for assigners, free for refs. Free for assigners. For gosh sakes, come on, check it out. All right, last one Travel Ref. Now, you may not have heard of this yet. It's brand new, but it's really freaking cool.
Speaker 1:Last year, I took it upon myself to referee in another state. I was heading to New York City, my hometown, but I hadn't been there ever to ref and I was going to hang with friends. I had a morning free and I proactively searched out the local assigners and after four months going back and forth trying to find the right people, I was assigned a few matches at the iconic fields at Hell's Gate, overlooking Manhattan. That's right, they're actually called Hell's Gate, kid you not? It was an amazing experience. I grew so much in such a short period of time, stepping out of my comfort zone, reffing new teams at a new location, with reffs I've never met before. It was just absolutely gorgeous, wonderful, and I had a great experience. And I want you to have a great experience like that too. Just go to TravelRefcom Again, no cost to you. They're going to help you travel to different tournaments all across the country and have a ref vacation. You can go to Miami, you can go to Florida, you can go to Colorado, you can even go to Wyoming my gosh. Just go sign up at TravelRefcom. Make sure to mention that you were referred by me Again, no cost to you, no cost to you. The assigners pay for this one. Go there and then you fill out your preferences and whatnot, and they'll just message you about tournaments coming up, places that you want to go, and help you get there and have a wonderful experience. So definitely check it out. Travelroughcom Say you were referred by me. All right now to the mailbag.
Speaker 1:Now I get messages every single day and I'm probably not as good as I should be about reading them to you guys because, honestly, they are inspirational, they're informational. I learned so much stuff about what's going on in different parts of the country and different parts of the world and I want to share a few with you. This is just a nice warm fuzzy that I get. This one is from Keith at Laguna Hill, which is hilarious because he's about two years behind in my podcast really a year and a half behind. I can't wait until he catches up and listens to this. It is oh my gosh, I made it onto the podcast, so he starts it. It goes and he's like oh my gosh, I made it onto the podcast, so he starts it and goes hey, david, I just finished your December 2nd 2023 podcast and you have to warn us when you send chopped onions through the internet, laugh out loud. So I just say I had to go back to the December 2nd 2023 podcast and listen to it, because you know I cry a lot. I don't think this guy knows yet that there's probably every three or four episodes I'm going to be shedding tears. So just FYI, it happens. Okay, I go on. It's like this email could go on and on and I will do my best to make it brief, but I feel so lucky to. I have found your Instagram and podcast channel, that pod and the podcast before November 10th, 2023.
Speaker 1:Refs makes mistakes and that's okay Are the best ones you've done thus far. I have numerous questions, but I promise not to abuse your time. Quick background on me I'm 53 and I live in laguna hills, california. I played when I was a kid and essentially I started reffing when my board started a yso. I started reffing high school when my oldest became a freshman, so I've got about 19 to 20 years of reffing and now feel like I just started being an okay referee. By the way, how much do I identify with that statement? He's working for 20 years as a ref and he's like now he's like okay, I think I'm good now, I love that.
Speaker 1:Okay, this is getting long, so the point of this email is to tell you I hope you keep up your amazing work. Yes, I'm two years behind on all your pods, but I want to hear everyone in succession so I don't miss anything, and I'm learning so much from you and I'm inspired to start my ref certification into what we call club soccer right here. So thank you, thank you to your family for lending us your time and take care. Thanks, tom, tom. Thank you, sir, appreciate you. Can't wait till you catch up to this episode. Love you, man, appreciate it, my gosh, from wherever out in Laguna Hills I'm looking you up. What a gorgeous location, all right.
Speaker 1:Next one. This is from Virginia, which is very apropos because Ben Glass, the Renegade Lawyer podcast, he's actually based in Virginia, so this is apropos and I wanted to add this in. So I get this one from Keith and he writes hey, dave, I'm a fairly new referee in Northern Virginia and I will start to AR for high school this week, in addition to working rec league games on the weekend. Awesome, Welcome to the club. Keith, I'm a big fan of your podcast and I'm going to get my daughter, who's 12, to start listening to it as well, because she wants to start reffing next year.
Speaker 1:We've done lots of episodes about referee abuse recently and I want to let you know that the state of Virginia passed a new law last week, sb 986, which amends the previous state statute, ss 18.2-57, and makes assault and or battery, specifically of a sports official, a class one misdemeanor, and I think it's really important. I want to read real quick Assault does not necessarily mean physical assault. In Virginia, assault is an overt act that creates a reasonable fear of harm with no physical contact needed. No physical contact needed, that is a big deal. A class one misdemeanor is no joke and I'm going to read a little about that. So this law applies to officials working at interscholastic, intercollegiate, public entity, private, so any amateur sports event, whether the official is actively performing duties or is on the premises before or after the assigned time.
Speaker 1:Okay, so this also beyond the class one misdemeanor. It also provides a court ordered prohibition from attending any sports event operated by that entity or organization for not less than six months as part of the sentence as well. Okay. And if the reason for the abuse includes race, religion, gender, anything like that or something like that, there's also going to be a confinement of at least six months. That's right. Six months in jail Okay.
Speaker 1:If the abuse has a racist or religious or gender element to it, if there's bodily injury, the charges go up to a class six felony Okay, that is big time. Jail time, six classics, families, crazy stuff. So it's for any referee, umpire, judge, scorekeeper, timekeeper, anyone who's even a neutral participant in the sports event. So crazy stuff there. I just absolutely I like not crazy. It's crazy that we need a law like that. But good on Virginia for implementing this policy. And they're specifically doing it so that you know referees and judges and umpires don't have to fear going to the pitch. Okay, it should not be a scary experience, but we should know that there are very serious consequences and parents and spectators and coaches and players need those very serious consequences for abusing a sports official. So, yes, congratulations, virginia, thank you so much for doing that. I sincerely appreciate that.
Speaker 1:All right, guys, now it is time for the show and I just want to say so. I'm being a guest on someone else's podcast, so there is brief intro that goes on here, and he asked me a little bit about my background experience. I know I've been interviewed a number of times and I've shared these things here and so you might've heard a few of these stories in the past. But just trust me, it's really quick and it's a different spin on this conversation just because of the person who's interviewing me on this one. But quickly we start going into some new ground and we start talking about the ref abuse or ref assault policy, referee abuse policy excuse me there and all sorts of different topics and then just hearing from Ben he's fantastic too. I sat there and listened to him talk. He's absolutely wonderful. So I hope you enjoy the podcast. Again, thank you so much for your support and your love and your letters, just your comments and everything I could not do it without you.
Speaker 2:Hey everyone, it's Ben. We're back with the Renegade Lawyer Podcast, where each episode, I get to interview people inside or outside of legal who are making a ding in the world. And today we're going to go one space adjacent, really, to my other favorite space, or maybe my primary favorite space, which is the refereeing world, the soccer world, the sportsmanship world, and so I'm going to talk to David Gerson. David is kind of interesting because he also has a marketing and public speaking background. David and I like to do the two weirdest things in the world that most human beings hate, which one? Getting on stage and speaking. The other is, you know, getting in front of a crowd and trying to referee a game.
Speaker 2:He has become slightly famous, if not big time famous, for his referees a refs need love to brand, with over 250,000 followers on TikTok and Instagram. He's actually started a small business associated with that. Most importantly, he's one of the sane adults out there who we are just trying to create, to help create a safe, fun environment for our children to grow up in as good citizens, and so using some of our public speaking whatever persona skills to just kind of spread this message. So, david, it's great it's a Friday afternoon here. I know you're busy because I think you just started a new work gig I think I saw on the internet and you're refereeing and down in Georgia. So thanks for carving out some time for us.
Speaker 1:I know it's my pleasure. I mean I think we are definitely like-minded individuals. But I will say in general, man referees wherever they are around the world, and I've interacted through my channel with referees in Nepal and in, you know, ukraine, you know even they're still playing some, uh, football in ukraine these days, in south africa and everywhere. But it is a, a community. I hate to use the word fraternity because that seems almost exclusive. We'll take anyone, but it seems to attract certain people who have kind of you know a core beliefs. You know honor, honesty, fairness, you know it's. It's a wonderful group of people. So I'm so glad we're getting a chance to connect and meet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is hard sometimes. Well, why do you do this? You know, and to explain, well, I like doing stuff I'm good at I think every game for me I just turned 67. So every game for me is a physical and psychological challenge. It's a book. You don't know what chapter is coming next and we're trying to manage, you know, especially at this high school game, which is where most of my work is today. Just manage these personalities. I don't know about you, david, but I find the young, the high school athlete, I think, is awesome. I think most of the coaches are great, I think the parents are the problem and it's just fun. So it looks like you started about 10 years ago into the refereeing space. So tell us a little bit about that, like, why, why did you start?
Speaker 1:Well, I would just say I've always been a glutton for punishment. My high school yearbook quote and this is true, I'm not making this up is it's better to stand alone for the right reasons than be together for the wrong. So that is just kind of a core belief in who I am. I've always just kind of been like you know, hey, if I believe it, I'm going to say it and so I've always been in like student government positions coming up. Even in college I was a rugby player and I was president of my rugby team, which talk about a difficult job. That's a group of mutants right there. If you can keep everyone out of prison, you're doing a good job.
Speaker 1:And that was actually my first step into officiating actually. So I got I played all eight semesters of college. My final year I was starting to get a little burnt out, picked up so many injuries. I actually took the course to become a nationally certified rugby referee and that's where I started officiating some matches in that final senior year of college and then I continued officiating rugby. So that was my first taste of being an official and rugby has a very different, very different culture around.
Speaker 1:How you work with an official and the players is much more mutual respect. You talk to each other, you know, with empathy, it's done in a calm tone of voice. You speak only to the captain. It's just a very different thing. And so when I had an opportunity again, when I, my kids were starting to age to the point where I couldn't coach them in sports anymore, my son was moving into those like a U10, u11, u12 academies and going up pretty high, he wanted to become a referee and I was like man, well, if I'm going to be driving him to the fields, I might as well get certified too. And so that's how we started, when he was 10 and I was 40, and now I'm 50 and he's 20 in college. But we we reffed over five I mean easily 500 or 600 matches together over the years. But that's how I got started to where I am today.
Speaker 2:Is he still in it?
Speaker 1:He is Now. He took a little hiatus. So when he was 17 and we had been reffing together for seven years, we started moving up and doing higher and higher levels of competition. So the MLS, next the ECNL. He even centered an ECNL when he was 15, he stepped into the middle for a U13 ECNL which, for those who are not listening out there, it's kind of like the highest level of youth academy, professionalized, real high level of competition.
Speaker 1:I mean that is a difficult spot to be when you are only a year or two older than the kids that you're officiating out there. I mean, that's the kind of man he is, he's an old soul. But we had a really negative experience. Actually. We were officiating an adult amateur match and I was an assistant on one side of the field and he was on the other side of the field and a red card was given out, which is the most serious punishment you can give someone. They're sent off for the match when they receive a red card and the player who received the red card. There was kind of a mass confrontation, people coming together on the pitch. Well, out of this mass confrontation, this player, this 25 year old man, this large man, takes a run at my 120 pound. Five foot nine, you know, 17 year old child on the other side of this mass the other side of the field.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I saw this happening and so I run across the field, this guy kind of bumps my son in the chest, screaming at him, about to physically assault him, and I was able to get them apart and obviously father, papa bear brain comes out and got them away. But I will just say that was one incident of a couple incidents that we were just getting involved in as we were doing these higher and higher level men's matches, and he was just like you know, man, I don't need this. Like it's ridiculous, I can get another job. He worked on a pizza truck. He was getting paid like $200, $300 a night working on this thing, getting tips, no one's yelling at me, everyone's nice, I'm having a good time. He's like why do I need to step over here and referee.
Speaker 2:Hey everyone, this is Ben again just butting in here. If you don't already have a copy of my book Renegade Lawyer Marketing, you're really missing an opportunity to help your firm grow. This book is 300 pages of very practical advice for those of us who are running solo and small firms and who are not spending tens of thousands of dollars or hundred million dollars on on advertising. At Ben Glass Law, over 80% of our new leads start because a human being has mentioned our name, and in this book, brian and I share the secrets that make this possible. Now you can get the book over at Amazon, but if you do, you're going to miss out on three really terrific bonuses that are only available when you order the book from renegadelawyermarketingcom.
Speaker 2:Number one you're going to get our ultimate referral letter. This is the exact letter that we've used to drive referrals both from lawyers and other professional practice owners, including healthcare providers in our case, and has helped us accomplish our financial and growth goals. Second, you're going to get our intake success system, because what good is it to drive more cases, to get more leads if you don't have a system and a person and a script for answering the phone when they do call? The intake success system is a complete course that will help you and your team convert more leads. And finally, you're going to get the notes from the latest Great Legal Marketing Summit. These are 100 pages of notes and slides from all of the speakers at our last summit. And again, none of these bonuses are available on Amazon.
Speaker 2:Finally, if you like, after you buy the book, you'll be able to get on a 20-minute strategy call with either Brian or me. What we're really good at is helping you figure out what's the best use of your next dollar and your next hour in building the perfect practice to serve your life. So go over to renegadelawyermarketingcom, pay shipping and handling and order your book All right. Now back to the episode.
Speaker 1:And so he took about a year and a half away and then when he came home from college over the summer you know poor college kid, you know he had he'd gotten past it and you know he's like, yeah, I'd love to try it again. And we had a blast. We got back out there, we were back in more youth academy matches um, it was a safer environment. I only took him to places where I knew he would be treated well and he loves it again and now can't wait to ref with me every time that he's home. But so so 10 years for him too, and he still loves doing it and he's still certified and he's reffing now in South Carolina. He goes to Clemson, but we did have a year where we had to go away because he was the victim of some very serious verbal abuse and then potentially it was borderline assault some very serious verbal abuse and then potentially it was borderline assault.
Speaker 2:You know, I have a sort of a similar experience in I started when I was 16. So 51 years ago and at a relatively young age I was working in some of the top senior amateur adult leagues in the Washington DC area. And back then, you know, we didn't have YouTube. We didn't have. We didn't have a lot of support for referees there weren't. You know, we didn't have YouTube. We didn't have a lot of support for referees there weren't.
Speaker 2:You know you'd have the occasional meeting where they handed out the paychecks. That's how long it was. They handed out paychecks and it was really hard. You know when you would have games. I didn't have an incident exactly like that, but you have hard games where sometimes all hell breaks loose. And you know, for us my dad would drive me down to Washington DC. We'd find a place to park and you know we're doing the senior amateur ethnic leagues on crappy people can't imagine like rock hardly any grass fields where every foul results in a lot of pain and suffering if you're hitting the ground. And yeah, you know, and stop for a bit.
Speaker 2:I think the great thing for referees today is no matter where you are. So we have referees in our high school association, david, who are up to 83 years old. We have 18 to 83. Everybody today, because there's so many, as you said, so many different levels of game, of intensity, of field sizes, even, and so I think you know your challenge and my challenge, probably the biggest one today, is keeping a young'un who's joined, who started out as a teenager, getting them past like year two or year three, and so you know, thank you for doing a lot of that work.
Speaker 2:I've seen your videos, some of them out there in coaching. It's interesting this whole rugby thing, because you can go on YouTube and you can see the mic'd up rugby videos and it is exactly as you described and I wonder, like, well, how come? Like, could we ever effect change to get to there? Um, and how come like in virginia, like the virginia high school league will tell you, although we've had some bad basketball incidents and a track meet incident in virginia which you may have seen on social media, like, but vhslHSL is like soccer, it's the hardest thing like for for us. You know so many objections and stuff. What do you think it would? Can we, can we change the culture and what do you think it would take?
Speaker 1:Yes, so the short answer is yes, it absolutely can happen. Okay, first off, it exists. So we're not talking about some type of like crazy, you know new type of nuclear fusion, you know, in a paper bag. We're talking about, you know, a behavior change and a mindset shift, and then policies and then administrators who will support those policies when they need to be implemented. It's not crazy talk. We're not talking about something that's impossible here. We're talking about collectively coming together and agreeing on what is acceptable and what is not.
Speaker 1:Now I will tell you. I've just spent the last four months of my life working on the brand new referee abuse policies for US soccer life, working on the brand new referee abuse policies for US soccer, where we are very clearly starting to lay out in video, on websites, in imagery, in PowerPoints, exactly what is acceptable in terms of an emotional outburst. We recognize it's a game of passion when you're competitive in anything, whether you're playing tennis or whether you're playing basketball or hockey or soccer. When you're competing and you're giving it all, yes, sometimes you get frustrated when a call doesn't go your way Totally. We appreciate that. It's an emotional outburst, right, it's atmosphere. Fans, they cheer, oh, they groan. But when it becomes.
Speaker 1:You know what we call dissent or we call often a boss, offensive, insulting and abusive language. There's no place for that. There's no place for personally abusing, using insulting language, racist language towards a referee. There's no place for physically threatening someone's safety. There's no place for touching someone, unwanted touching or throwing things at someone. There's no place for touching someone unwanted, touching or throwing things at someone. There's no place for that. It's not okay, especially when we're dealing with amateur and youth sporting events. No one can tell me that that is oh. No, that's part of the game. No, it's not. I've read the laws of the game. I trust me. 99% of people have it and it's not in there. It doesn't say you can abuse the official, you can threaten the official, you can dox the official, you can hit the official. Whatever that is, it's not in it. You don't need it to play the game.
Speaker 2:It doesn't make the game better. I'm just trying to protect my players, Jeff.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, it make the game better. Just trying to protect my players. Draft. Oh yeah, what do you mean? I'm just trying to. You know I've heard it all. I'm just trying to protect the players, you know I'm I'm trying to keep the ref honest. You know all that like, please, man. No, you're not helping anyone. You're certainly not helping the game, right, because all you're doing is amping up the toxicity, and you know the negative sentiment. You create a victim mentality, right, because now the players on the field aren't responsible for winning or losing. It's the ref. The ref's making a call that's forcing us to win or lose.
Speaker 1:Let me tell you, I've watched many, many, many thousands of sporting events. Rarely, rarely, rarely is it the referee who's causing someone to lose a match. I mean, yeah, there might be one call here or there that's subjective and could have gone one way, but usually it's the team on the field to decide the outcome. Yeah, so you're just summarizing this. Yes, ben, it is possible. We can change the culture of the culture of youth sports in this country. We can.
Speaker 2:I'm curious about your work with the uh, the abuse policy. Is your work for the national level or for georgia? Or because I, you know, I've looked at it there's not been a lot in virginia besides showing the one or two graphics of the policy. I have friends who are on disciplinary carries and I'm just wondering, you know if this is going to be have disciplinary hearings or we'll have to quintuple, right, if, if the you know the sanction, the minimum sanction is a suspension for two games for um, for abuse. So I'm I'm just curious about how you think that's going to play out at the local level in terms of, in terms of a how do we educate the referees? How are we going to report? Because I just haven't seen anything about the practical side of the posters I've seen that's.
Speaker 1:That's great question. So I worked on the, the videos, the posters, the powerpoints, the. You know the script for the videos and everything that went into those. Those powerpoints us soccer, so the national us soccer carry sites are vp of referees and brian hall at us soccer champion. This effort got the funding for this effort to hire me and an agency to create all these materials so where everyone could be um, sensitized and learn about it and see all this stuff. So that's happening at a a U S soccer level and they they are developing a universal kind of national level reporting structure and database, you know, so that there's a uniform way to submit these supplemental reports to report abuse. Right now it all falls to the local state level, state referee committees and associations to define what that process is. But it is going to be a national structure and a way for a uniform way for every referee who's working US soccer sanctioned matches in this country to have kind of one process to be able to report so we can track these things and make sure that the punishments are being given out, as they are written and, as you said, they are significant.
Speaker 1:Now one thing I do want to say, ben, because you said you do a lot of high school. This does not qualify for high school matches or for college matches. As you know, they have a different rulebook entirely and a whole different structure. Anything for USU soccer, us club soccer, mls snacks, ecnl, adp, all these different alphabet soup, ayso leagues underneath the US soccer umbrella, which we're talking about, millions, millions of kids who are in US soccer certified programs. The other thing is they only can sanction the people that they license. So they can sanction team officials, like coaches, right, and they can sanction players. They can't sanction parents. So parents are the responsibility of the club. So there are some limitations to what this policy can do, but it is significant.
Speaker 1:And, as you said, the minimum punishment for someone who gets sent off for referee abuse whether it's verbal abuse, taunting using, you know, uh, you know belittling language, you know and and yelling at a referee in an aggressive manner, what are the minimum is two games and if that person is a minor, it is triple. So if you are yelling at a minor referee, okay, not just normal dissent, you know, asking question over and over again on every call, but specifically, you're the worst ref I've ever seen. Okay, okay, well, that's a red card and that is a minimum of two games. If that person is a minor, it is a minimum of six games. Six games.
Speaker 1:So this has teeth. I mean you get start moving up these policies. You use racist language, which, let me tell you, I see it happen all the time, you know, or ethnic slurs or anything like that, or gendered language as, as you know, specifically uh, uh, insulting someone you know for their gender or some nature, and a lot of women have to deal with this out there. I mean we're talking six months and if it's a minor, even beyond that, so it can be real severe even beyond that, so it can be real severe.
Speaker 2:Have the clubs, the non-referee personnel, been involved in this, and then what has been their? I'm sure everyone probably raised their hand and says yes, we agree, we have to fix this right. I'm just curious. So, with the sanctions being significant, to say the least, I'm curious about what the clubs are saying, and I don't guess we have enough evidence of what they're doing yet, but what they're saying about this policy, well, so it's interesting.
Speaker 1:I mean, they were all very involved in the creation of the policy. So there was about, or I should say, the update to the policy. There's always been a policy, but no one knew about it because it didn't have the website and the videos and the pictures and the PowerPoints, all this kind of stuff. So over the last year they've been updating the policy and they've been communicating and they've had all of these different focus groups and webinars and calls, and I sat in a couple of these too. So everyone has been where it's coming. It's coming, it's coming. Now the rubber meets the road and I think there will be some.
Speaker 1:Some of the trepidation is okay. Well, now I'm going to have I love this one. They're like, oh, I'm going to have a referee on a power trip and he's just going to throw me out and throw me a red card just because he wants to. I'm like listen, dude, that's not what happens. No, that's not what happens. No one, no one, wants to show a red card and then have to write a report and potentially go to a hearing or something like that. Please.
Speaker 1:I'll also say too, a lot of clubs are in denial. Ok, in denial, that it's not us. I will tell you. I'm not going to be specific about anything here, but I just recently had an incident where a young teenage referee was being yelled at aggressively by a male you know in his twenties coach and came onto the pitch yelling at this teenage referee and engaged mother not good behavior. And I'll tell you, you know, the response from the the the club is, you know it's, it's it's an isolated insulin incident. It, you know it's an isolated incident. You know it was a bad day. It's like man, there's a culture.
Speaker 1:There's a culture I don't know, man, I think you need to go back and look at some of the full game footage, or multiple games. I think you know this is going to really force clubs to start taking a very close look at who they have on their staff and how they act, because, I mean, it's a massive impact if you lose a coach for two, three months, whatnot, and they're coaching three teams. Yeah, like what do you do?
Speaker 2:exactly right. They're coaching several teams, so I think so as a referee who's been watching, but frankly, in virginia only seen like two posters and several social media posts. Right, what you just said about the work that has gone into this, I think is going to be an important thing to be communicated to the soccer community. This wasn't five guys and gals in a room saying, all right, we're tired of this, now let's just put up on a whiteboard what penalties should be. I think that's going to be important. I'm curious if sanctions are increased for dealing with a minor referee. In some countries, some of the kiddos under 18 are wearing special armbands and stuff. As a lawyer, you're thinking do process. Is there anything like that there, so that you actually know that it's a 17-year-old who's on the field?
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're working on that. They actually are coming out with a different color badge. I think is what they're working on. So there'll actually be a badge with a green outline to it. When you see that, you'll know that is a minor referee. Now I'll tell you.
Speaker 1:It's funny, I've talked to some minor referees about that, or some people who are like, you know, 17, 16, they're kind of older teens. I'm like I don't know if I want to be, you know, people to know that I'm a minor. I was like, no, it's important. You know, it's important for those, especially those kids who are 13, 14, 15 years old. Man, it's their first job. Gosh, when I was 13, you think about I don't know. I mean, yes, Ben, I'm sure you and I were kind of similar. You know, yes, I was a confident teen and I like talking.
Speaker 1:But, man, you put a 13 year old kid in an environment, these highly charged environments and yes, I'm talking about you six and you eight soccer, highly charged environment. U6 and U8 soccer, highly charged environment. I mean U10, I tell people, the hardest age groups to referee is like over 35 men, OK. And then U10, like seriously, Both of those are exactly right. It is the most difficult, crazy environments. You know the fields are smaller. There's so much more intensity in those U10s. Kids are finally starting to be physical with each other. Some people fall down, Some people may get injured I mean no fault of anyone's, whatnot but it is intense and people think their kid is the next Messi or Ronaldo, whatever oh my gosh. And they're spending money. They're a lot of money. Kids are practicing four days a week. That is a very difficult environment to put a 13, 14-year-old kid but we've got over 20 million people playing soccer in the United States every single week. There are thousands upon thousands of games happening. You need these kids to be able to work those matches to cover them so they can play. But man the intensity. Yes, they do need safety, they do need to be protected. We do need to know that that is a 13, 14 15-year-old kid. It is just like anyone else's kid that we see on the pitch.
Speaker 1:I don't know why it is, Ben, that if it's a child playing the game, then you would never want someone yelling at that kid, screaming at that kid. Right, oh, that was a horrible pass. You're the worst player ever right. Totally, it would be completely unacceptable. Fights player ever right, totally. It would be completely unacceptable. Fights would break out in a second. But if that kid is wearing a referee jersey, then they're fair game. Then you could yell whatever insults you want at them, you could threaten them, you could tell them that the worst referee ever people have no problem with that and they're like well, they gotta learn. They should develop a thick skin. Are you kidding me?
Speaker 2:or or no. They got to be trained better. There has to be some level of accountability. Who's like how do we get? Like this is a championship U10 game? Like, how come we got some referee that's only been it's in her first year of refereeing and I'm like, well, they sent all the good referees to the good teams today. But you know, this is what you get.
Speaker 1:Well, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? So we lose. I think we lose 80% of refs within three years. So, and the number one reason why they leave that they've said is specifically spectator abuse, and the number two reason why they leave is coach abuse. And so what you have is you're burning through all of these young referees and you and I both know it takes three or four years before you properly learn how to apply the game and you learn game management skills and get that confidence. So, if you're having this outrageously high churn rate, well, guess what? The quality just keeps on going down. And in I think it was 2019, we had about 140,000 soccer referees certified in this country to do grassroots soccer. Now we've got about 95,000. So you know we've lost 30, 40 percent. We're still burning out referees at an alarming rate. So, yeah, policies like this are needed, you know, so that we can get better quality officiating. It's not about, you know, a punishment for coaches or players or spectators. It is about creating a better, positive environment for everyone.
Speaker 2:You know, one of the things that irks me and I think we can improve on is the adult referee who does not recognize dissent and abuse and who says I'm good like I can take this abuse and who says I'm good Like I can take this, or actually, and they have maybe teenage assistant referees on the touchline and the adult referee is not like present enough to listen to what's going on on the touchline and dealing with it as soon as it happens. And that's like I see this over and over and I'm like no, like we're really good at trying to recognize fouls and figure out what the next step is. We need to be we, the adult referees, need to be better at refer, at recognizing abuse whether it's to us or certainly to our teenage assistant and dealing with it, Cause next week there is going to be a 16 year old on that game and we're setting that 16 year old up for failure yeah, no, I, I could not agree more.
Speaker 1:You know you hear this line about. You know you just, you know, develop a thick skin. Don't listen to them, tune them out like I'm sorry. There is no mammal on earth that does not. But that has, you know, ear lids or whatever we the ears are open, you know. It's like you're constantly listening to hear what might be around you. It's an early warning system. You can't shut off your ears and I've been to tournaments, right, like high level tournaments, where they don't want to deal with it and they just say keep your eyes open, keep your ears shut Like I'm sorry. That's not okay. That is not okay, and especially if we're dealing with and working with teenagers.
Speaker 1:I will tell you a true story. This is the last adult recreational match I ever worked. I had a 15-year-old young black woman as my assistant referee okay, and it's five minutes into the match and a player, you know she raised her flag properly for an offside offense because someone came from an offside position to play a ball, you know, and again, people on the field might not have seen it, but she was in the right position, she noticed it, I saw it happening as well and a large, you know, caucasian guy, big, muscular dude takes a run at this girl. You know like, take steps towards her. What Are you kidding me? What? Like like unbelievable, like that is not okay, man, like that is aggressive intimidation. That is traumatizing, it is unacceptable. And I was like just mortified and I'm like what? Like intimidation that is traumatizing, it is unacceptable. And I was like just mortified and I'm like what? Like no way Back up, are you kidding? I called the captain over. That is unacceptable.
Speaker 1:I was so upset and I was mortified and you know what the players were like. What? Like, what's your problem? Like I had a problem, like it's your problem, like I had a problem, like it was my fault. So, yes, ben, when I'm out there, I'm paying it forward and I am making sure that when I hear verbal abuse, you know, when I hear dissent, you know, even if it doesn't rise to that level of verbal abuse yet. But we've got someone who's you know yelling, you know rude things to my assistant assistant referee, whether it's a teenager or not. It's not okay and you know it is just not okay. That is not in the rule book of youth sports, that just because you've come to watch your kid ref that you've got the you know carte blanche to yell rude, nasty, insulting things at the referees.
Speaker 2:It is not okay yeah, my words are like that's not your role here today and we're and we're not doing that here today. And I find, david, like most of the time that works, and maybe it's because you know, I've been around and I've got a whole bag full of of techniques to talk to. Uh, to talk to adults, um, I was watching a game once and it was a youth game and the 16-year-old center back kept turning to the AR and would say like you suck, you suck, you suck loud. And I was just a spectator and when the game ended I started to walk along with the AR. I said why didn't you tell the referee, the adult referee? He said well, the referee said to ignore it. I'm like man, that adult referee. So, while the referee said to ignore it, I'm like man. That is, that is is criminal.
Speaker 1:Listen, man, we, we've all been there. I mean, I I'm going to be honest, I didn't know how to deal with dissent early in my refereeing career and that's why I say it takes three, four or five years, first off, to be able to to understand what is acceptable and what's not. And then when you do find something that's what's not, how do you deal with it? I mean, my son was lucky, right, Like he's a 12 year old kid centering a U10 or U13. He was like 13, 14, doing a U12 match and he had me on the line. And so when I was experiencing, you know, a coach giving him, you know, unacceptable behavior, you know, at half time I was like, hey, Jacob, I think it's time we need to have a conversation with the coach. If it continues, you need to card him. And so I was able to be that mentor for him.
Speaker 1:So many of our teenage referees do not have that. They're out there with other teenagers. They never get that kind of coaching, whatnot. You know someone who's going to support them and be with them through the match, because it is so difficult to do. I mean, I remember you know lashing out and yelling at spectators. There was one specific time where I heard someone scream that's a horrible call, and I turned around in the middle of the field. I'm like, who said that? Like yelling, like that's not right either. So it takes time to figure that out and I'm a grown ass adult, right, who's had, you know, 27, 28 years in the corporate world and training and public speaking? You know, gosh, not many people have that, and even I struggled with it.
Speaker 1:So one of the things we're working on right now for US soccer is specifically some videos that will help referees identify. You know what's just atmosphere, what's an emotional verse, what is dissent, what is offensive, abusive language. And then what do you do about it? You know what can you do with your body language, your voice, your mechanics. How do you go about it? If you do need to show someone a card, if you do need to send one off, what does that look like? How much distance do you need All of those types of things so that people know to recognize it? And then what action to take, Because, no, they do not need to accept it.
Speaker 2:They don't need to deal with it. That is unacceptable. It is just so hard as a young. So when I started I was in Northern Virginia. Most of the coaches so this is the 70s, right, most of the coaches were foreign born males, right, and you got a little redhead American boy, ben, out there and I learned quickly that being the most knowledgeable on the field about the loss of the game was really important because that was really good for self-confidence. But nobody else like if Joe, the coach born and allegedly playing professional ball someplace said something, then Joe was right and I just think that's so hard for young referees.
Speaker 2:So let me ask you this because I still like to go and I love doing games, I need more recovery days and there's nothing harder than coming out of winter to try to run with 17-year-olds at the high school level and on narrow fields. But you know I find it challenging because I think I would be a good mentor, right, but I think if I have an hour I want to go do a game, I don't want to go watch, so. So how do you do this? How do you combine? Because I know you, you know obviously you've got this your job. I didn't know that you were kind of the production leader of the broadcast and implementation of the abuse policy. That's really cool and I think there's more to be done there. Like that's neat. I had no idea about some of this background. But I'm curious about you Like how do you mentally split up your time today? Cause I'm sure you still like refereeing and you know getting out there with refereeing, mentoring, coaching referees, doing clinics probably, and living life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so prioritization. So obviously, if my, my family is available, family is available for a meal. That's taking priority. If kids are going to be home for something, I'm going to make time to be with them. I just went for a walk with my daughter and my younger son just an hour ago. That's number one. So making sure that my family's emotional health and physical health and my physical health and emotional health Number one.
Speaker 1:Every day I'm working out first thing in the morning, waking up at five or five thirty and I've got some workout that I'm doing, whether I'm doing a HIIT workout, whether I'm doing a distance workout, you know a heavy lift, you know that's the first thing that I do. The second thing I need to provide for my family. So I've got full-time job. So I'm actually I run sales and marketing for this really cool little live event activation company that does like on-site silk screening of shirts, screen printing of shirts and leather stamping and hat bars and that's a lot of fun. I love them. They're really cool. I was a huge fan of them when I was in the corporate world. I used to be a big corporate branding guy for billion-dollar companies and I just got burned out on corporate life. So I worked for this really small little company that I love and enjoy. And then, outside of that, I've got my passions. So I've got my passion project around. Refs need love too, so I generate at least one or two videos every single day to help educate everyone who's involved in beautiful game, whether they are coaches, whether they are players, whether they're referees. That's a part of my day. And then I've got you know podcasts as well and the website and a retail business, um, that has built up you know selling. You know kit and gear to referees and materials and cards and whistles and socks, and you've gotten that as well.
Speaker 1:But I try and keep focused on my priorities. If I feel like everything's getting away from me and I felt that a little bit last week I just start writing my list again. I start writing down okay, what's most important? Where do I want to be three to five years from now? What are the things that are going to get me there first and foremost and that's what I just work on trying to do.
Speaker 1:I try not to let it overwhelm me. I will tell you as a referee, I want to be about 75% on the field right now. So high school is great because you can do it during the week, which is wonderful Monday nights, wednesday nights, friday nights, and then my weekends are often reserved for club, and then I try and take one weekend of the month where I'm doing mentor work, where I'm doing either a first-time referee class or I've been invited to possibly go watch referees and mentor referees actually on the field. So, just like you, while I'm able to and physically able to get out there, I want to be reffing as much as I can. But I feel that at this stage of my life, at 50 years old, knowing that I'm never going to be, you know, a national referee or something like that, I'm not going pro that the most important thing I can do is give back to the next generation yeah, no, that's a good, that's a really good balance.
Speaker 2:Um, how how big is your team at uh? Refs need love too, like team dude dude upgraded, you know oh that's so funny, brother.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, it is me myself and I, every now and then, I have to drag my, my family member in to come video for me. My actually my son's girlfriend's a great videographer and I'll take her out because I've been doing more brand deals lately. I had a moss by messy sports drink and I've got another one I just I started working on this week for a big national brand. So sometimes, sometimes I need some someone to help take my iPhone and help me video. But I am the video editor. You know I'm the production, you know I'm the podcast guy I'm. I'm packing every envelope. Every single shipment that goes out gets a handwritten note for me. Every single thing that I, that I do, it's, it's me.
Speaker 1:But I'm telling you, ben, I am loving it. I am having so much fun right now because I'm doing what I love, what I'm passionate about, even the full-time job. I chose that job and I was able to choose to go work for that company because I had this other passion project that I was working on that started to become a profitable little business right now, which is so cool. And I've got these consulting things that are popping up too. I've been asked to speak at different conferences. It was a lot of fun. I was the featured speaker at the National Association of Women's Gymnastics Symposium. That was such a blast. I had so much fun. So all of these things are happening right now and, yes, it's a lot, but I'm having a great time doing it.
Speaker 2:Well, it's fun. I think we're very much aligned because, you know, I find the feeling when you're getting ready to go on stage is the same feeling for me right before a game starts Like there is this excitement. It's not really nervous, it's not fear, but there's an excitement. Heart rate goes up, breathing changes and you're getting ready Again. You're going out there. You don't know what chapters are going to be in this book actually, and so good for you. So if folks want to follow you, look at your products. I know you're on TikTok. I'm not that much on Instagram, but I see you're in my feed like every day on TikTok, and I know that there's a website too, is it? Refsneedlove2.com?
Speaker 1:or what is it. It's just refsneedlove2.com. T-o-o, with the two O's there, and you can find me under that moniker on TikTok, on Instagram, youtube as well. I've got a podcast that people can listen to, and I've got the blog on the retail store as well, and merch, which is a lot of fun too. So, yeah, it is. It is all over the place right now, which is really really cool, and it seems to keep on building every single day.
Speaker 2:That's crazy. You're, you're, you're. You're the kind of guy who wakes up, has an idea and doesn't let anyone tell you no, let's just go start it and we'll see where it goes. And I'm sure you sometimes probably drive your family crazy.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I have to, I have to tell you, like, as a small business owner, um, it's really important that your, your spouse, you know and family is with you. Like I've had some ideas that are, you know, you know, admittedly maybe not the best ideas, or some products that haven't sold, but we talk about them, we think about them, we make decisions together. My wife's got a small business as well. She's a pet sitter, which has actually grown into a really significant business over the last few years. So she's a hustler. She's got like five different jobs. She's a substitute teacher, she's a gymnastics judge, she was a cheer judge up until this past year. She does the pet sitting, she does, like you know, some acting like extra stuff. She does a lot of stuff too.
Speaker 1:So she is definitely, you know, a hustler and and I say that in a good way is that we, we, we really care about the projects we're working on. We love what we do, we're having a lot of fun and it enables us to have a, you know, a good life. You know, enables us to make choices, to be able to go on vacations and spend quality time with our kids. You know we're able to be in good physical health and really take care of ourself and eat, you know, good foods that are good for our bodies, and, and you know we tell each other that we love each other. Every chance we get. Life is good this is exactly.
Speaker 2:I mean Great Legal Marketing, which is my coaching. Consulting business is all about like living a life by design, like whatever is perfect for you. If you can articulate that for lawyers like we can help you figure out. How do I spend my next hour, my next dollar, to move towards here. Next hour, my next dollar to move towards here, which is really it's, it's it's, it's revolutionary in the legal space, where most lawyers are dissatisfied, unhappy and kind of hate the job that they've built for themselves.
Speaker 1:I'm a big believer in the. You know the. The past is history. Tomorrow is a mystery. You know, live in the present. It's a a gift. That's why they call it the present.
Speaker 2:You know, just try and stay focused on the next time I come down there you're, I think, suburb of atlanta that's right, I've seen that. Yeah, I'll have to go reach out. Maybe there's some way we can get to uh to either go do a lecture or a game together the two little kids trying to uh, just go out and have fun that would be fun we can go to at Atlanta United game.
Speaker 1:I just warn you, I go in my full kit. So, you'll see me in my, in my yellow, at that match.
Speaker 2:It's a lot of crazy end of the stadium. All right, my friend, this has been wonderful. Thank you for carving out the time for us, my pleasure.
Speaker 1:I hope you enjoyed today's podcast. It was so much fun chatting with Ben. I got to tell you I love expanding my network and meeting referees all across, not just this country, but all around the world. Again, there's a certain type of person who is attracted to this role. And, yeah, are there some bad apples every now and then? Yeah, but it's so rare I must have some force field. I rarely meet them. Most of the people I meet are fantastic. You know guys and gals, just wonderful people, men, women, boys, girls, you name it. I just love them all, and Ben is no exception to that. Do you know?
Speaker 1:That guy had triple bypass surgery a couple years ago and he's back out on the pitch again making it happen. Love it, man. If I'm still reffing and I'm in my 70s, life has been good to me. Guys, before I let you go, just a reminder. Please support the Refs. Need Love 2 online store. Okay, you can buy all your cards, your coins. Okay, new flags They've got the brand new flags on the store that are fantastic, man. They're much cheaper than when you buy them anywhere else. They're weighted, they're gorgeous, they're cool and it's tax time. Do you know that that equipment could also be a tax write-off, tax deductible expense because you know you need it for your job as a referee. So not only are the cards rewritable, but they're also write-offs. That's right. Please support the refs need love to store. Everything gets poured back into making this channel possible and, as always, I love you and I hope that your next match is red card free you.