REFS NEED LOVE TOO
An honest perspective from the 3rd team on the pitch... the referees. Through humor, analysis and education, we are slowly changing how people view referees and officials in all sports. We care and have a love for the game as much as any player or coach. Sometimes even more. Youth soccer (proper football) is a multi-billion $ industry in the US. Tremendous money is spent on players, competitions, travel etc., but almost nothing spent on developing the next generation of referees. I hope that this Podcast inspires, educates and humanizes the next generation of referees for their own development and appreciation from the players, coaches and spectators they need to work alongside.
REFS NEED LOVE TOO
From Center Back to Life Coach: Soccer's Mental Game with MLS Legend Michael Parkhust
What does it take to excel as a defender when you don't fit the physical prototype? Michael Parkhurst, who captained Atlanta United to their 2018 MLS Cup victory, reveals how his mind became his greatest strength on the soccer pitch.
"My brain was my biggest asset," Parkhurst explains, detailing how he compensated for lacking the traditional center back qualities of height, strength, and aerial prowess. This mental approach not only fueled his remarkable professional career but also inspired his current mission helping young players develop beyond their technical abilities.
After watching talented academy players fail to earn second contracts despite their skills, Parkhurst co-founded Beyond Goals Mentoring with former teammate Greg Garza. Their organization addresses the immense pressure facing today's young players and teaches the often-overlooked mental skills crucial for success. From building resilience and confidence to developing leadership and emotional control, these tools serve athletes both on and off the pitch.
The conversation offers valuable insights for players, coaches, and referees alike. Parkhurst breaks down what makes a great referee from a player's perspective: mutual respect, clear communication, and consistency. He provides practical advice on player-referee interactions, emphasizing respectful dialogue and emotional management during heated moments.
Parents will find particular value in Parkhurst's observations about sideline behavior and how it affects both player development and referee retention. His perspective highlights how well-meaning parents often undermine their children's growth by removing opportunities to learn through mistakes and develop decision-making skills.
Whether you're a player looking to elevate your mental game, a referee seeking to understand the player's mindset, or a parent supporting a young athlete, this episode delivers practical wisdom from someone who reached soccer's highest levels through intelligence rather than physical dominance. Visit beyondgoalsmentoring.com to learn more about developing the complete athlete.
Hello and welcome to the Refs Need Love To podcast, a show that gives you a real, raw and behind the scenes view of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch the referee. I'm your host, david Gerson, a grassroots referee and certified mentor with over 11 years of experience over 1300 matches under my belt. You can find me at refsneedlovedocom, on Instagram, on TikTok and on YouTube. Today we have a very special guest. One of the core memories for me in my life was going to the 2018 MLS Cup Championship match at Mercedes-Benz with my son, and we got to see our Atlanta United hoist the trophy and win the MLS Cup. And our team captain, michael Parkhurst, is here today.
Speaker 1:He's probably best known for captaining Atlanta United to their first ever MLS Cup, but let me tell you he had a tremendous professional career both here in the US and abroad, and he had this calm, cerebral presence on the back line. He was a standout performer with New England Revolution Columbus Crew here on multiple Fair Play Awards and was the 2007 MLS Defender of the Year. Now, since retiring, michael's been busy. He's gotten deeply involved in the game. He co-founded an organization called Beyond Goals Mentoring. It's a nonprofit that pairs young athletes with experienced pros to provide guidance on and off the pitch. So he's continuing to champion character, leadership and mental wellness, as well as essential components of success in soccer and life. Michael, thank you so much for being on the pod.
Speaker 2:Yeah, David, it's good to connect with you. I'm glad you invited me.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, no, it's an absolute pleasure. This is such a thrill and certainly to connect with you and I'm glad you invited me. Oh my gosh, no, it's an absolute pleasure. This is such a thrill and certainly to connect. But I'm always interested in connecting with people who are trying to help people deal with the mental side of the game. As much as there's physical ability, there's mental. Michael, I'm sure you wouldn't mind me saying so, it's not like I'm not calling out something obvious, but you're not six foot four, 220 pound center back. You had to really leverage your mental skills and capacities to be able to compete. Can you talk about a little bit of that and the mental aspect, how important that is to the game, even at defensive roles?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely Definitely. I played the game much different than most of my center back partners. I always ask athletes to name like the prototypical strengths of a center back, and I always ask athletes to name like the prototypical strengths of a center back and you name height and strength and tackling and heading, and I say I was good at none of those and yet I had a pretty good, successful career as a center back and so, yeah, you can play any position differently. It's just what are your strengths and how do you use those? And for me, it was my brain. My brain was my biggest asset and so it just meant me seeing things and being aware of things before they happened. And when I was able to do that, I had to get into less physical confrontations and battles and challenges and things like that.
Speaker 2:And I didn't like hitting a soccer ball. I wasn't very good at it. So how do I win challenges and how do I clear balls without hitting the ball too much? And so there's a way, and for me it was just how do I find that way? How do I use my brain? How do I organize things and really lead attacks right? Because that was my second biggest strength was on the ball. So mental side of the game is huge and that's what Greg and I are doing. Greg Garza, my co-founder, and we're just helping athletes get better off the field. They get a lot of training on the field, so we're trying to help them off the field.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so that's going to be my first question to you. So the beyond goals, mentor, mentoring talk to me about that. What's the mission of the program? What inspired you to start it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, two things really inspired us. One was when Greg and I were playing for Atlanta United. We signed our first batch of homegrown players and they were very good players on the field and none of them ended up getting a second contract with Atlanta United. And Greg and I could see why in the locker room and training habits and things within the organization, and it was without sounding harsh they just didn't understand how to be professional athletes and what it all in took. And it's a lot more, like you said, a lot more than just physical strength and physical tools and can you pass a ball, shoot a ball and control a ball? There's way more to it than that. So that was the first thing. And the second thing was after I retired and before COVID hit.
Speaker 2:I was hanging around the Atlanta United Academy a little bit and I realized how much pressure these younger athletes are under and how much different it is from when I was growing up.
Speaker 2:It was still, yeah, I played soccer almost year round, but I played a ton of other sports as well. I loved baseball still do but I played basketball in basketball season and baseball, soccer. You just did other things and I know it's so different nowadays, but it just really struck me with how much pressure there's players that are 12, 13, 14 years old, their families are moving so that they could be in a certain academy and there's just so much pressure on that child, year in and year out, to make that team again, and that's at the highest level. But there's pressure on kids that just want to play high school and go from jv to varsity and or try and get to d1, and so it's just trying to help out these players and even families who maybe have never done it before, maybe the parents never played sports or didn't play soccer and just don't know where to turn for information. I think those two things really led us down this road and it's taken off since then.
Speaker 1:So you spoke a little bit about the off the field aspects of being a professional and the things that are beyond just the skills that you have in the pitch. You know what are some of those off the field lessons that you think are so important, that you instill in these players to enable them to become the pros or the collegiate players or, just, quite honestly, successful in life that they need to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you just nailed it, and that's what Greg and I realized quickly once we started this is, we don't have to work with the highest level athlete. Yes, what we're talking to pertains to them, but it also to your point. We're teaching life skills. Yes, we're talking about soccer, but a lot of the things that we talk about it's going to help you, no matter what you end up doing, because obviously most of the kids we talk to are not going to be professional soccer players.
Speaker 2:Yeah, things like confidence and resiliency and battling injuries and coming back from that, and leadership skills, a growth mindset these are all such important things, right? Because these high-level players and we 'll talk about the high-level ones right now right, they're the best players on their team growing up. And now, all of a sudden, when you get to college or maybe even high school when you get to high school, or when you get to college, or maybe even when you get to pro, all of a sudden you're put in your place. And how do you react to that when, not only are you not the best player on the team, you might not even start, you might not even make the bench, you might not travel, and where's what's your mentality like then. So there's so many different things that we've seen throughout our careers that and experienced.
Speaker 2:And you know, the loss of confidence is such a huge one and I don't care how good of a player you are, if you don't have confidence, there's no way you're going to be a shadow of yourself. Right, even the best of best players Joseph Martinez, when he was the best MLS striker, right For three straight years, four straight years I still saw periods where this guy lost confidence and you're like, trying to help him out in training, hey, get it back, man, you're good. So it's such a fragile thing and it's a skill. It is, it's a skill. And some people think like, oh, I'm just a confident player, I'm not a confident player and I'm like, no, you can train it and you can get better at it and it's something that you continually need to because it's so fragile.
Speaker 1:Yeah, can you talk a little bit more? You said two words that are near and dear to my heart. I've actually done an entire episode specifically about the difference between a victim mindset and a growth mindset, a little bit about what a growth mindset means to you and how you try and instill that in the players you work with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a big one and I totally understand what you're saying there. The victim card, it's when things don't go well or aren't going well. It's the ability to say I can turn this around, I am in control of this, I can learn what I don't know. I can accomplish what I can't. Right now. I talk about the word that we associate with growth. Mindset is yet do it yet, or I'm not good at it yet. That means you can get there and so, when things aren't going your way, it's what can I learn from this? How can I use this to get better in the future? And part of that and I'm sure it is what you're talking about with the victim is taking accountability first taking accountability before we say, oh, it's not my fault, or it's somebody else's fault, or why is it me or the referee's fault? Yeah, totally, and I've got a story from just two weekends ago about that that I'll get to at some point.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that's a huge one because, of course, players are quick to point the finger at anybody besides themselves, but we say the best leaders and the best players are quick to point the finger at anybody besides themselves. But we say the best leaders and the best players are accountable, and not only that, but sometimes you're accountable for other players' mistakes. Hey, dude, don't worry about it, that's on me, not on you, even if you aren't on the other guy, and you're trying to help them out and give them confidence because, hey, I can take it. That's the epitome of a growth mindset, and so, yeah, we try and instill that, and it's tough for some athletes, for sure, and it's a process.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's amazing. It sounds like you're giving them not only how to cope with adversity, but also how to be a leader on the pitch as well, which is so critical. It's a team game, without a doubt. The 11 players are on the pitch right there, the entire squad who's practicing day in, day out, whatnot in the entire organization. But being a leader at all times is even in the face of adversity, is something, a great skill that everyone can learn.
Speaker 1:I just want to take a quick moment before we move forward. Michael, again, so a lot of my audience that listens to me. Yes, there are a lot of players and there are a lot of coaches, but referees I mean you talking about the things that a player needs to do off the pitch to be a great player we often talk about for referees who are aspiring to move up the fitness that you need to be putting in during the week to be fit on the weekend. You don't. You get fit to ref. You can't ref and all of a sudden think you're going to be fit to perform out there when you need to perform.
Speaker 1:The eating right, the right mindfulness training to get yourself in the right framework and mindset, working with your colleagues in a professional, positive manner, showing up with the proper uniform, all those things. There's so many things that are off the field and, from a mental standpoint, that are so huge for referees, just like the players that we're working with. I do have a question for you and I think you might have been alluding to this have you ever had to help a player navigate through a tough experience with a referee? How do you advise players to respond to moments of frustration with ref? Because certainly there can be those moments.
Speaker 2:No, doubt Totally. Yeah, I've worked with a mentee not too long ago and he admitted it. He said I just lose it sometimes and I just I can't control myself on it. He was a young kid and I said we talked about it and we said, hey, the game of soccer is a lot of emotions, right, and we don't want to play emotionless, right, we want to bring an emotions into the game and it's important. And we understand that when you care a lot, you're getting frustrated, right.
Speaker 2:But what we say is most important as far as referee is respect. And so, if you know you're going to disagree with a call and you're going to have to yell or kick or something, don't do it towards the referee. Turn away right. Walk away as you're doing it. Right, if you need to yell, if you need to kick the ground, if whatever, it is right.
Speaker 2:I think and you can correct me if I'm wrong but I think a referee would respect that a little bit more. Right, because most referees know that, hey, it's a competitive game and it's emotions and things and you're going to lose it sometimes really quick. But if you're not trying to embarrass the referee or really show them up, usually you get a little bit of a leeway. So that's what we try and focus on first is, before we can get to the hey, just take a deep breath and things. Hey, first put your back to the referee and then, okay, now we can try and take a breath. But if you can't, if you need to let something out first, then please turn your back before you do that.
Speaker 1:Michael, I got to tell you literally right now I am working on the US soccer videos for the US soccer carry sites, the VP of referees for US soccer. We're working on a set of videos right now that kind of demonstrate the differences between what's an acceptable emotional outburst that's what we would call that versus dissent or offensive insulting, which, yeah, but one of the videos that we do we specifically give the examples of someone actually coming towards a referee and remonstrating in their face like screaming at them. Well, that certainly be dissent at a minimum versus someone who's upset and they're walking away, they're getting back in position and they're just letting out emotion to themselves Like it's an outburst to themselves. They're frustrated in the moment, whatnot, but it's not directed at the referee and that emotional outburst as opposed to what would be seen as disruptive, dissenting, intimidating behavior coming towards a referee. So you're exactly right, you're giving them great advice.
Speaker 1:Yes, obviously I think everyone would love for everyone to be perfect, little angels, but it is a competitive sport and we're having people try and work at the peak of their abilities and emotionally and physically, and there are going to be moments where things boil over and you got to get it out because you're frustrated or upset about something like it happens. Yeah, it does, but you're exactly right. Let's do it in the right way. Let's make sure that it doesn't become confrontational, because the last thing you want is for someone to receive a card that they didn't need to get. Maybe they were already on a card and now their team's going to be down a player for the rest of the match. That's not a good situation. Don't put yourself in a situation where you're hurting the team. Yes, release that energy. Okay, just don't do it in a way that's going to be disruptive to the game or cause an issue with the ref.
Speaker 2:I think it's great advice, awesome. Yeah, no, and that's exactly right. And yeah, you don't want to put yourself in a position to make the referee make a decision as far as a descent yellow right, even if you don't think you're crossing a line, you don't know what's preceded it, you don't know what mental frame the referee's in Try not to put yourself in that situation. And that's exactly what happened last week with Rhode Island FC, the team that I co-founded and near and dear to my heart right now. We had a player shove another player and we was, and I was at the game. It was in Detroit. It looked like he shoved him in the chest and I think it was like the fourth minute of the game, so super early, and the referee gave him a straight red and, of course, the coaching staff was not happy about it and everything. But we saw a picture later on, after the game. Sure enough, there was a hand in the face. Was it a punch? Was it really rough?
Speaker 1:Of course, not Hand to the face. It's very clear yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's. Don't make the referee make that decision. You know, don't put yourself in the situation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's no reason for it. I just want to say was it Detroit City FC? Yeah, detroit FC, yeah, oh. Oh, dude, what an amazing fan base.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was my first time at the stadium. It was really cool atmosphere. There's no parking, which is difficult, but it's cool because it's right in the neighborhood.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's very cool. They've got, they're doing everything right as it relates to the second or third tier of American soccer in this country. They're killing it and doing a wonderful job at it. But, yes, you're exactly right, there's the mental side of being able to keep in control and not lose it in that moment, because your team needs you, without a doubt, and they need you on the pitch. Certainly, being able to stay in the right mindset of being competitive, but not letting you get taken away with, is so important.
Speaker 2:It's a big thing that we talk about all the time emotional control, because it's it is so important. David, did you watch the Atlanta United game versus Philadelphia last weekend?
Speaker 1:I didn't watch it. I'm sorry, I was reffing.
Speaker 2:Oh it's quite all right. A Philly player put himself in this situation exactly what we're talking about, because he's already on a yellow card. Ball goes out of bounds it hits the board and it comes back to him, him and there's a point of emphasis here of not delaying restarts. That's right, everyone's. Everyone should be aware of it. Yeah, center back picks the ball up, carries it back onto the field and then sit and gives it like a half kick, where it makes it halfway back to the sideline and I see the referee and I'm watching this and I'm like that's a second yellow.
Speaker 2:And I see the referee and I'm watching this and I'm like that's a second yellow and I see the referee no, yep, why are you putting me in this situation?
Speaker 2:Exactly, right, and I can see him looking at him and I can see him pointing at him and I'm like, and that's a tough one, right, and I understand why the ref doesn't give it, cause you're like, can you give him a red card for this? Yeah, I get it that Woody would have, he should have, could have, but it's like, why Don't put yourself in the situation? It's just awareness, right, awareness and emotional, so important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's so interesting Talk about a center back, okay. So let's say there's a foul in your defensive third, okay. Okay, running up to the ball and standing on top of the ball might earn you a card. Slow, like, getting close to it and maybe just slowly walking back. For us, as referees, we always say just make me believe, man, make me believe that you're trying to get back, not preventing the restart. Just be smart, man, be smart.
Speaker 2:Not asking much here.
Speaker 1:I'm not asking much, seriously, don't force my ad. So tell me, michael. So you're doing this mentoring now you know what specific mentoring or guidance do you wish you would have had earlier in your career? Is there anything that you know? The lessons you've learned? Now, man, you wish you would have learned that lesson earlier on, when you were still playing.
Speaker 2:That's a good question. I think it would have been great if someone had or maybe take ownership and I wish I had learned it myself a little bit earlier of make sure you're enjoying every day and not getting caught up in in little BS things.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I think that soccer players in general can just complain and hey, there was ample ammunition to complain about when we're talking mls 2005-6-7, right early days, where players did a lot and we dealt with some conditions that are much different than today's. Yeah, but later in my career I definitely was like you know what win or lose, streak or no streak, whatever's going on like I get to kick a soccer ball and get paid for it. So I'm going to go out here with a smile on my face and I'm going to enjoy the day and get after it every single day. And I'm not saying I was a grumpy person when I was younger, but I probably didn't appreciate it as much as I did in the latter third of my career.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's wonderful advice. I always love the statement. It's like the past is history, tomorrow is a mystery, today is a gift. That's why they call it the present.
Speaker 1:And I'm always, like when my son was going through some tough times in his playing days, I was like, man, just enjoy this much longer. Enjoy while you can go, hang out, have fun, enjoy yourself every game. Just have a blast. Have a blast, all right. So I do have some questions specifically looking at to the referees. Okay, from a player's perspective, I see referees part of the game. What makes a great referee on the field? From your perspective you were a captain, you had to deal with the ref what do you like seeing in a referee that you're working with?
Speaker 2:I think there's a couple of things. I think three things stand out for me for when I think of real top quality refereeing performances. One is a mutual respect, and obviously the player needs to show respect too in order for there to be mutual respect, but a respect back from the referee, especially for certain players. That's number one. Number two is good communication, Be approachable. There was nothing worse than a referee that just you couldn't even talk to, and I understand. If a referee doesn't want to listen when somebody's hot and heavy, that's probably even better, right. But when it's not that and it's a calm situation of hey man, what did you see there? Or why is this or why is that Right For me, especially if there's time, that makes a big difference to have that communication and just be approachable. It makes them more human being, I think, rather than a robot or somebody that's got ultimate control or something like that.
Speaker 2:What was the third thing that I was going to say? I just lost it. I said respect, communication, oh, and consistency. If there's certain referees that are going to call the game tight, as long as we can figure that out pretty early, all right, we adjust If we know it's going to be hey, he's going to allow more physicality, then so be it, and it's on the players to adjust right. As long as it's consistent, that's that's important. So I think those three things probably stand out for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that we talk about that constantly from a mentor standpoint is being humble and approachable, like you're. Certainly you're trying. We're trying to encourage referees to be confident in their decision-making because people need to know the referees believes in their call and they're not wishy-washy. It's not a foul, is it not? Yeah, you're called it, but of course I had this actually as doing a playoff match for high school Wednesday night and the. It was a girls match and the girls asked me hey ref what was that call again?
Speaker 1:And I was like, oh, here's what happened. She tripped her from behind. It was right outside the penalty area, it was stopping a promising attack. That's why there was a card. And they're like, oh man, thank you, mind you, it was against their team. But they were like so thrilled just to have an explanation.
Speaker 1:They're like, yeah, most refs don't explain anything and I'm like, oh my gosh, it's painful, it's we're, we should be, we're officiating the match, but we should be helping everyone understand what's going on, whether it's the players on the pitch or and I do this just it comes natural to me, but I think it it addresses a lot of issues. At the youth game, I try and communicate loud enough so that not only all the players hear me but the spectators and the coaches hear me too, so that all of them know what's going on, cause I find a lot of times the banter or not really banter, cause it's not going back and forth, but just the the atmosphere when it starts getting toxic is people don't understand what's going on, or just, like you said, they don't feel it's being a consistently applied or something at nature, which are fantastic things. But yeah, having respect from the players. I think even empathy, like referees who can be empathetic to a player who might be upset about something.
Speaker 1:Okay, who might be upset about something? They've given away a free kick in a dangerous area late in the match. The season's on the line. Expect that they might be upset about that call. It's not about you, ref, it's about the call. They're upset about the call. They might be upset at themselves. They might be upset at many different things, but we try and encourage referees not to take it personally.
Speaker 2:So I think, yeah, I'm a thousand percent yeah, that's got to be difficult, right, because we're all human beings there's only so much abuse you can take. I got some of the things that professionals say and how loud and aggressive they are and sometimes the referees like they surely they can hear it. But you know they just let most of them just let it roll off and you're like man. Respect for that, because sometimes I'm sure they wish they could just give it right back or whatnot.
Speaker 1:I'm just waiting till all football soccer referees are mic'd up and it is, I'm serious. I think it would cut that behavior down by 90%, just like in rugby, where the referees are mic'd up, you can hear what the players are saying. You hear the conversations between the referee and the players. Honestly, I think it would go a long way to eliminate that behavior, because some of the stuff is ridiculous, absolutely insulting, disgusting, nasty. You would never say that to anyone in normal life, but sometimes that gets said towards a referee. So I have a lot of empathy for players, but a lot of empathy for those referees who just suck that stuff up and deal with it too.
Speaker 1:It's crazy. We don't want that to happen at grassroots. I understand. Professional is different. You don't want to just be sending off players left and right and destroying the competitiveness of the game. You don't want to just be sending off players left and right and destroying the competitiveness of the game. It's there for entertainment and the 60,000 people who come to Mercedes-Benz to watch the match, but still there should be a line to run on that one. I do have a question for you have you ever considered becoming a referee yourself and being someone who's got this great cerebral mind and reading the game and understanding the game, and seems to be able to stay relatively calm under pressure.
Speaker 2:Have you ever considered officiating? No, I haven't, and I almost spit out my coffee there. So, and honestly, I think that's because I know how thankless and difficult the job is. To be completely honest, like that it's, it is honestly so. No, I don't think I could, and I thought about it even at the youth level. Right, if I wanted to donate my time or just help out a little bit, and I may at some point do something like that. But, honestly, when I see the parents on the sidelines of these youth games, I don't know if I want to deal with that and that's why I don't coach, coach kids' teams, no way. Parents are terrible and so I don't know. There is a possibility on the referees, but there's a very small pool who want to do that, a very small pool.
Speaker 1:It is a completely different world. It's one thing as a player, when you control your destiny and what you're doing on the pitch and what happens around you Totally. As a referee, you're just moving with the game and whatever happens, but there's a lot that comes back to you that's out of your control. It's just a very different world, very different mindset.
Speaker 2:That's for sure, a hundred percent. I can totally imagine how it would be and, yeah, I think that's why players don't want a part of it, cause, yeah, we think we know everything on the field until all of a sudden, oh, we're in charge of it. No, no, thanks, I have to make every call. No, I'm good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Specifically, I do want to follow up. You did mention specifically the parents In your coaching and mentoring that. Do you also mentor and coach the parents of these players as well that you're working with?
Speaker 2:We try and make sure some of the messaging is towards the parents. Most of our sessions the parents aren't involved, so when they are, we surely do. But that's what we found, honestly, is the parents that need it the most, don't think they need it and so they don't want to hear it or listen to it or anything like that. And the clubs mandate it for their parents so that the clubs don't have to be the bad people and we can try and help some of the behavior on the sidelines and things, because also, like we know that sometimes they're hurting their kids. Maybe that's a question for you, right? Can parents negatively affect a game for a referee If one side of the, if one side of the parents is really obnoxious? Have you ever found yourself swaying calls or 50-50 calls? And I know you're obviously trying to be as good of the players as possible, but again, we're all human beings, right? Can parents have that negative effect on a game?
Speaker 1:Let me just say this, sir. First off, can parents have negative effect on the referee? Let's stop with the first question. Yeah, absolutely so. Again, the two main reasons why we lose referees. Number one spectator abuse.
Speaker 1:Number two is coach abuse and again we lose 80% of referees within three years. I talk about it all the time I we talked earlier in this podcast where over time you learn the difference between an emotional outburst and what's dissent and you learn how to deal with that and nip those things in the bud. But that takes a long time to develop those man management, people management type of skills as a referee or anyone, as they're growing into adulthood. But we have a lot of teenage referees or just new referees who have never dealt with that before and, yeah, it is intimidating, it is traumatizing, it is scary, it absolutely chases a lot of people away. And then what the parents don't understand is that they're yelling, okay, at the referee on the pitch. Okay, they are adults, so they're modeling behavior to their kids.
Speaker 1:Now you've got kids who are also not going to set a responsibility for the decisions they're making. They feel that they're not. Their performance isn't deciding the outcome of the game must be the referee who's deciding the outcome of the game, which 99% of the time is not the case. And so you're turning these kids into having a victim mindset Not good as opposed to a growth mindset Not good. So that's a couple of things that are happening there.
Speaker 1:I will tell you for the referee, oftentimes what I see when parents start yelling or questioning decisions with youth referees, younger referees, those referees are less likely to make calls. Actually, when people start yelling cause they're afraid to blow the whistle, they blew the whistle, they made a call and then someone complained about a call and they're like I've just gotten negative reinforcement, maybe I should stop making calls. And then the game kind of spirals out of control and gets worse and worse. Makes sense. So yeah, parents yelling at a ref, it's not going to help influence a call, a certain direction, it's not going to change a call, it's just going to chase potentially good referees away and it's going to create a really negative, toxic environment and just encourage that victim mindset. It's not good.
Speaker 2:No, it's not. It's a huge problem.
Speaker 1:It's a massive issue. They think they're helping. They're really not, or I don't even know if they think they're helping, but they just can't help themselves, like they have to voice whatever it is inside them. I will tell you, it's funny. I spent an hour and 45 minutes last night on a US soccer call for referees done by Essie, who's like a famous World Cup referee and referee in the MLS for tons of years and internationally unbelievable and we were talking about handball. Like 80% of the times a ball hits someone's hand. It's not a handball effect, but every game people are screaming handballs. How do you not see that? How do you not call that? It's dude? Because the laws of the game to this dude. Just sit down, enjoy watching your kid run around, play, learn, adapt, develop that grit and resilience to overcome you. Yelling like destroys that for the referee and destroys it for the kids. Just enjoy the moment, man absolutely yeah, when you're talking.
Speaker 2:I think the two things that we talk about a lot is one is body language and how it's contagious, yeah, for the players out on the field, but same thing with the parents. Right, the complaining is contagious. I still remember it from my youth days and if I remember that from my youth days, it really stood out for me as a youth where some of my teammates and my parents were quite good, right, as far as being quiet and but I remember other parents just losing it and yeah, it's embarrassing for the players too and yeah, it's terrible.
Speaker 1:So, man, hopefully they can dear to you and your heart. Again, talking about mindset and soccer iq, the thing that kills me, and always killed me as a soccer parent and a referee, is listening to the parents joysticking the players, telling them to pass, shoot cross, do this, do that, do this? All these things it's oh my gosh. Can you not let your kid make a decision or not confuse your kid, like whether, whether they're on the ball or about to receive the ball, they're getting shouted at by six different parents of what to do and I'm like, oh you not understand what you're doing to your kid? Man, you're not helping Totally.
Speaker 2:They're not helping because we talk all the time that you learn best from mistakes and figuring it out yourself. That's part of the growth mindset right. Mistakes and figuring it out yourself that's part of the growth mindset right. And so parents are stripping these opportunities from their kids to learn faster. Yes, are they going to make mistakes in the short term? Of course, but they're going to remember it better the second time, had they made the mistake. Then the mom and dad told them where to go and they went. They're not going to remember that this time. They will remember it if they weren't there and they cost their team a goal or they missed a big chance or whatever. They'll remember it and they'll change it for the next time. You just don't understand that because they want to win today and this game matters so much, and it's. Can you remember what the score of your kid's game was a year ago, on this Saturday in May? No, because it didn't matter. Like, come on, it's ridiculous.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I did an entire podcast entitled Dear Parents, please Shut Up and I'll tell you it might be a good one to recommend to your kids that you're mentoring and their parents, or even for the kids to listen to. And the point of it, it's a provocative title. It's not that we don't want sound and atmosphere. What we're looking for is encouragement, great effort, sound and atmosphere. What we're looking for is encouragement, great effort, keep going, you can do it. Great pass, great shot, ah, great tackle, great save keeper, well done boys. Yeah, keep going. Guys, like applauding when the good things happen, you know that. Encouragement on the pitch. And even when something bad happens, don't worry, you'll get it back, it's okay. Keep your head up, like being a positive, like just influence on the pitch. That's what we're looking for at youth sporting events. That's it. Outside of that, all that negative stuff, you ain't helping. Amen, it's a good one. Michael, do you have any questions for me as a referee? Anything that may help your kids understand how to work with us out there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so. Is there what kind of communication from younger players can help them and help you during a game? In what moments and what type of questions or comments, what can players say or talk to you about, that can help the relationship of referee and players? I love that. It's a great question, so let's talk about that can help the relationship of referee and players.
Speaker 1:I love that. It's a great question. So let's talk about that. So I tell my in my pregame, when I'm talking to players, when I'm checking them in, when I'm like, hey, listen, guys, I communicate a lot on the pitch and I want you to understand the call. I can't stop every five seconds and answer a question, but at a stoppage of play you generally have a question. Ask me a question and the kids who have a growth mindset will come up to me at, let's say, I've called a foul, whatnot? We're setting up for a free kick and they'll hey, you know, ref, you might've asked a question.
Speaker 1:I thought I was using my shoulder there. You help me understand why you called a foul and I'll be like, yeah, you did use your shoulder, but you put your shoulder into their back, okay. So if you're going to come side to side, no problem for me, okay. Or you're stepping in front, not a problem using your shoulder, step front, but going through your back the opponent's back is always going to be a foul for me. So I love it when kids want to understand a call and when there's a stoppage in play and we've got a moment to talk. Hey, ref, do you mind if I ask you a question about that? Yep, great, no problem, what's up? And I'd love to explain that when play is going as I've called a foul, someone's trying to take a quick free kick, asking me then probably not helpful and also going again.
Speaker 1:What we don't want to see players doing is you call a foul and it's like what was that? You're not going to get the death of a referee in that scenario at all, because that's borderline dissent, but a respectful, calm question at all. Because that's borderline dissent, but a respectful, calm question wanting to genuinely understand a call and why a call was made. I think every referee is going to explain that If it was a penalty kick or a handball given or some type of a tackle, or someone got a card, hey, ref, do you mind if I understand what the card was for, great man, most people are going to be like absolutely, I'll answer that question, no doubt.
Speaker 1:Now I say that 95% of referees I don't think would have any issue answering a question like that. Just like you've got great players, great referees, you're going to have not so great players and not so great referees. Not everyone's got good communication skills. It's a reality of the game, so it's not about you player. If they don't want to explain this, they may just not be good at communicating and maybe have not developed that skill yet. But at a stoppage of play, a respectful question, helping help One of the ways I encourage people to say help me understand that call and I tell you, if you go in with a student's mindset, you usually find a teacher who's willing to teach.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great. Another question for you have you ever changed your mind as far as maybe you were going to give a yellow card and you decided not to, or vice versa, based off of the reaction of the player after the foul? For example, kid fouls a kid and you think it's yellow card worthy, but he is immediately trying to help the kid up. Seems like apologetic. Or vice versa, you don't think it's quite, you think it's borderline yellow and shows no remorse and doesn't think it's even a foul. Does that ever affect like on those close ones going which?
Speaker 1:way I. This is such a great thing, michael. So let me one thing that referees talk about often and this is really important for players to understand is cards. Okay, these cards I have in my hand are game management tools. Okay, there are lots of things that happen where there's a gray area, Okay, okay, it's a slide tackle. Maybe at one point of the game I don't need to give a card for that, but at some other time in the game I't need to give a card for that, but at some other time in the game I do need to get a card from, because things are really getting hot and heated things in nature.
Speaker 1:So if a player, okay, commits a tackle, but immediately they're like, hey, I'm so sorry they're helping them up and we don't have temperatures rising, we don't have people like step into each other, fighting, whatnot? Sometimes players like energy levels, whatnot? If they're staying in control and you're able to have a conversation with them like, hey, man, it was a little bit too much there. You mind taking it down a notch? Yep, I got you. No problem if you can have that kind of conversation with a player and you can see that, hey, it was just a little bit clumsy, whatnot.
Speaker 1:They might be able to avoid a card if you've got someone who's coming in and it's very reckless, and you're right, it's like they're trying to get someone back for a tackle retaliate, or it looks like they're doing it in a way that is more reckless and they have no remorse, or something like that. Yeah, maybe that is definitely something where I'm like I need to kidnap before it gets any worse. Yeah, so I I don't want to give the impression that same exact tackle someone's reaction is going to necessarily negate a card. Sometimes you just have to card someone, no matter how pliant they are. But you're exactly right If someone is remorseful. Hey, I'm sorry about that, I just came in a little late. Yeah, they could possibly avoid a card. It's definitely a thing, without a doubt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, figured. And then my last question happens. My last question I don't know if it really pertains to you, socrates. I'm curious because I think it does. At the professional level, but maybe at the high school level, have you come across players who've earned a reputation or that have a reputation, and do referees communicate to each other about such players, like whether it's hey, oh, that's a good team to ref, or that's a respectful team, or that's a respectful captain, or hey, watch out for number four on this team. Right, he's constantly going over the line, or whatnot. Is there at a younger age? Is there that communication between referees? And is there a label attached to some players or teams?
Speaker 1:yes, this is one of the match I had the other night. The coach of the of one of the teams says hey, you need to watch that goalkeeper. They do x, y and z. We watch the film. They're really close to the penalty area and they're releasing the ball. They hold the ball, do whatever they might be like. They'll tip you off sometimes. Or you may like just ask.
Speaker 1:Oftentimes, pre-match I ask questions to the coaches hey, how's it going? Whatnot? Oh, especially in the like certain leagues, these teams play each other multiple times a year. I'd be like, oh, have you guys played each other already? Oh, how'd that go? Oh, man, yeah, we had a fight break out in this game.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to get that information. It's not as easy at the youth level to get like game film and stuff of the nature, but I'm in in the pregame. I'm watching to see who the most skilled player is. I'm trying to see do I have a hothead out there? And you figure that out really early. But yeah, absolutely it can.
Speaker 1:Players get reputations, coaches get reputations, without a doubt, and it definitely can carry over into the match and it's sometimes you need to really stop something early on and it could even be a very early card just because of the way someone is is carrying on or remonstrated on the pitch or just the nature of the challenges that they have there. You've got to again try and maintain match control and keep everyone safe. That's my number one job out there is keep everyone safe, and sometimes it means having to be a lot stricter on a certain player, just because I do know their tendencies and I can see oh, this challenge right here, oh my gosh, I need to make sure everyone knows I'm going to get that under control quick, because this can spiral out of control. Yeah, it's probably more common, obviously professional, but yes, it could happen at youth levels too.
Speaker 2:Awesome, awesome, yeah, those. Those are the questions I had at the top of my mind, unless you've got anything else, that you think that information that can help younger players that are dealing with referees or yeah, I would.
Speaker 1:Just the only thing I would just tell them is players make mistakes, referees make mistakes, Referees, especially at the youth level. We got one set of eyes. We're at one point on the pitch, okay, and we're going to make a call to the best of our ability, and it could be a mistake, legitimately could be a mistake. Okay, we're not changing the decision. Accept the position, get in position and get ready for the next play.
Speaker 1:Anytime I get an email from someone who says oh, we lost one, nothing, and this decision in the 70th minute cost of the match. It's like, dude, you probably had 30 shots on goal. You missed 40% of your passes. Did you make every tackle perfectly? Could your keeper have saved that ball? I, whatever it is, I promise you that one decision the referee make did not cost you the match. So just accept that mistakes can happen. Do everything you can to take personal responsibility for yourself on the pitch. Yes, will there be a decision every now and then that has an influence on the match? Absolutely, but I promise you 99% of matches, it's what you and your teammates do on the pitch that will determine the outcome of the match. Love it.
Speaker 2:Love it. Actually, I just thought of one more question, and this is not to help the athletes. This is personally just curious. Do you like VAR?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think at the professional level it's a wonderful thing You'll have there's. You're not going to find a single referee at the professional level in the world who would not want the opportunity to correct an obvious mistake Okay, I got to say it an obvious mistake. I don't want VAR to be looking at things in 60 frames, a second um, from 20 different angles on something that's subjective and then us overturning calls on that because that takes away from the game. Because on the field I was in the moment and if I felt it wasn't a lot of contact there and it was just glancing and the game doesn't need it, I don't want to have to call a red card there If no one needs it, I don't want to have to do that. But when you go to the monitor and they slow it down to the 60 frames, a second, all these different angles, whatnot, and they put this last picture up there, I'm like, okay, now I'm screwed If I don't call this, everyone's going this and I'm going to be blown up in the papers. So I think there's a right way and a wrong way to use VAR.
Speaker 1:I know this year, in the MLS in particular, what they've said is they're only going to use slow motion to get the contact point, but otherwise they're going to make decisions on full speed. They want full speed, they want to watch the film in full speed and that's what they're going to make. Their call on in the MLS more than any other league in the world Sometimes. Call on in the MLS more than any other league in the world. Sometimes that referee gets called to the monitor and they don't change their call and they stand with their original decision. They've given the refs the ability to make a call based on how they referee that match and what they felt in the moment.
Speaker 1:Other leagues in the world, specifically Premier League, it seems like every time they're brought to the monitor they're changing the call and we've seen so many times where there have been what I think are yellow card challenges be upgraded to red because of some slow motion view of it. That made the referee feel so much pressure I wasn't going to go, but I guess now I have to. So I think, yes, correcting obvious errors on the pitch, every referee at every level of the game would love to be able to do that. Re-refereeing the match in slow motion I don't think helps the game yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally agree with you. When they're bringing out 87 different lines to figure out if something's offside and somebody's got half a fingernail offside, you're like come on.
Speaker 1:This is not the ar premier league does that mls doesn't do lines.
Speaker 2:I know no one, which is great that's exactly right.
Speaker 1:yeah, if it's not clear and obvious that it's clearly that player was offside by a good margin, that you can see it with the naked eye, that they're not making that call In the Premier League again, trying to measure up by the millimeter on that stuff is come on, man.
Speaker 2:I agree, You're not helping anyone If it takes more than two minutes. It's not clear and obvious. So you've got your answer.
Speaker 1:I'll tell you that Real Madrid game a couple of weeks ago was a great example. It's five minutes on that one pull down in the penalty area where, if the referee called, made a decision for a penalty, okay, it's a subjective call. He called.
Speaker 2:Oh, I, remember that Mbappe one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, he called the penalty. Okay, you've got to let the referee live and die with that decision. It's a subjective call.
Speaker 2:It is what it is.
Speaker 1:And they took over five minutes.
Speaker 2:Took him forever just to tell him to go. Look at the monitor.
Speaker 1:Yes, there was some stuff I know they have to look at for offside as well but still I think it's a good thing. Michael, thank you so much for coming on here. I got to tell you for everyone listening out there. Now you're based in the Atlanta area. Do you do mentoring just in Atlanta? Do you do all around the country? Where are the kids?
Speaker 2:basically you work with yeah, so I'm actually based up in Columbus Ohio. Oh, wow, yeah, we relocated back because we were living here prior to Atlanta. My wife was a little devastated when I got traded down to Atlanta, so we kept our house and we happy wife, happy life. So I'm living back in.
Speaker 2:Columbus, but 90% of our clients are probably based out of Atlanta, just because Greg and I's name down in Atlanta rings a little louder and we've got good relationships down there. But most of our stuff is virtual. Every now and then we'll do some in-person stuff, we do some high school talks in person, but, yeah, a lot of it's just virtual. But we work with kids all over the place. We've got kids in Portland Academy, the Red Bull Academy and all over the shop.
Speaker 1:but a lot in Atlanta. That's fantastic. And, michael, how will people get in touch with you if they want to contact you?
Speaker 2:I think it's hello at beyondgoalsmentoringcom, or just beyondgoalsmentoringcom, and you can get in contact with us from there. I'm on social media, on Twitter and Instagram, so you can always reach out to me there. I'm pretty available. I like to stay in contact and be available for people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's wonderful, michael. Thank you so much for your time. Guys, everyone out there, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. Michael is a legend here in Atlanta, but again, it wasn't just what he did actually on the pitch, it was his, his presence as a human being and what he meant as a leader, and just the energy that he gave off that kept Atlanta moving forward. It was such a difficult first year with the franchise and to win the championship in the second year was just so unbelievably amazing. Michael, thank you so much for joining us today on the Refs Need Love 2 podcast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me and thanks for what you and all the other referees do for our game, because we wouldn't be able to play our beautiful game without you guys, outstanding Guys.
Speaker 1:I hope you enjoyed today's pod Again. Please support the Refs. Need Love 2 online store. Everything you purchase there gets poured back into making this production happen. Definitely check out the Fun Referee socks. They're wonderful for everyone, especially if you're back in the office. Again, fantastic design there. I worked really hard for you guys. So, guys again, enjoy your next match and I hope it is red card free. We'll see you next time you.