REFS NEED LOVE TOO
An honest perspective from the 3rd team on the pitch... the referees. Through humor, analysis and education, we are slowly changing how people view referees and officials in all sports. We care and have a love for the game as much as any player or coach. Sometimes even more. Youth soccer (proper football) is a multi-billion $ industry in the US. Tremendous money is spent on players, competitions, travel etc., but almost nothing spent on developing the next generation of referees. I hope that this Podcast inspires, educates and humanizes the next generation of referees for their own development and appreciation from the players, coaches and spectators they need to work alongside.
REFS NEED LOVE TOO
The Path to NCAA College Soccer Officiating: A Conversation with John Collins
Ever wondered what it takes to officiate at the collegiate level? John Collins, the National Coordinator of Men's and Women's Soccer Officials for the NCAA, pulls back the curtain on a world that represents both challenge and opportunity for advancing referees.
With college soccer now boasting the largest officiating pool in NCAA sports—over 5,380 registered officials—Collins reveals the pathways to breaking into this level. "If you're working at the top youth level and at the amateur level, NCAA soccer is probably a fit for you," he explains, detailing how referees typically move from high-level youth matches to college assignments through networking and regional organizations. The conversation delves into how college soccer strategically positions itself between top amateur competitions and professional matches, creating a unique environment where officials can develop and thrive.
Collins, who balances his NCAA leadership role with a career in finance, brings perspectives from his own journey as both collegiate goalkeeper and national referee. His insights on evaluation criteria are particularly valuable: "We're looking for critical, skillful thinkers that can manage games, apply the laws, manage participants, and they've got to be good athletes." This emphasis on critical thinking challenges the simplistic "keep it simple" mantra that many referees learn at grassroots levels.
The discussion also addresses the evolving relationship between NCAA and IFAB rules, referee shortage challenges, and the critical importance of experiential learning and community-building for referee development. Whether you're considering collegiate officiating or simply interested in understanding the referee pathway better, Collins offers wisdom applicable to officials at every level, including his personal philosophy: "Plan for the unexpected."
Ready to explore collegiate officiating opportunities? Email ncaasoccerofficials@gmail.com to learn how to connect with conference assigners or NISOA chapters in your region.
Hello and welcome to the Refs Need Love To podcast. I've got a short eulogy that I'm going to read. Don't worry, it's not uber sad, but it is an important one that I do have to call out at the beginning of this podcast. But before I do, again, just want to remind you guys. Thank you so much for all of your support. Listen, father's Day is coming up in just about a month.
Speaker 1:I was actually just with my dad down in Florida this last week. 82 years old, he's getting ready to have some pretty serious surgery, not heart bypass surgery, but a femoral bypass surgery, that is. It's pretty serious. It's a decently long surgery. It's a long recovery, but I'm hoping that gives him some relief and mobility. But I just want to tell you guys again, I so love my dad, I so love my wife, my kids, and I'm just thankful for every time I get to give them a hug and tell them that I love them. That is the truth Every day, whether or not you're having a good day, you're having a bad day, whether you might be upset about something, stressed about something, just make sure that the people that you love know that you love them, know how you feel about them. Tell them often, take the time to give them that hug, share a laugh, put down your phone for a second, have a brief conversation, see what's going on in their lives, because you never know if you're going to have that opportunity again. Yeah, I just want to give this opportunity to tell my dad, if he's listening to this podcast sometimes he listens to the podcast Again how much I love him and how much I appreciate him and all that he's done for me throughout my life. Okay, enough of that emotional stuff as I start crying here into the microphone.
Speaker 1:If you are looking for a good gift for someone who's a referee, think about supporting the Ref's Need Love To store online. Again, all the purchases that go to that store get put to really good causes. I can donate to different causes Also. You'll see a video from me this week. I've been trying to get out for my friend Paul, the guy who actually created the Refs and he Loved you score cards If you've purchased any of them. He's doing a marathon to help raise money for women who have been trafficked human trafficking and I can. The more you guys purchase, the more he can contribute. He's taking his portion of funds for those cards this month and he's using it towards his fundraising goal. I'm using my matching contribution what I normally pay him and I'm putting it towards that fundraising goal for him for human trafficking. So there's all sorts of good stuff. We help create more content, more training, information for referees. I've got a number of different projects going on right now but, yeah, everything you purchase from that store whether it's merchandise, t-shirts, the Ref's Need Love To kit, new flags, whistle, anything like that coins, all of those things go back to supporting this channel and the referee community. If you have a dad who's a referee, or someone who's a dad who's a referee, or if you're a referee and you're a dad, just tell your family, hey, go to the Refs Need Love To store, go purchase something there, and it goes back into making this channel possible. So if you get love and joy out of this, hey, it's a really good place to put your funds. Those scorecards are made here in the USA, which is fantastic. It also supports small businesses here in Georgia, so just wanted to throw that out there and again remind you guys, spend time with your family, tell your loved ones, you love one. That's a really important thing to do. One more thing before we get to. The eulogy is to remind you guys support again people who are developing products for referees Puro.
Speaker 1:I've heard from many of you guys who have gone out to official sports used my code, refsneedlove2, to buy your Impero shoes. You need to do it. They're fantastic. They are the best in between. It's not a cleat and it's not a sneaker and it's better than a turf shoe. It's specifically made for referees. It's got like serious grip on the back of it that you would have in like a cross country hiking type shoe, and then on the front of it it's got what you need that would normally be on like a turf or cleat type shoe. So it's like a combination of that. But they're light and they're flexible. They're the lightest shoes I've ever owned running on the pitch, but they feel great. It moves with you when you're running, but it's also gives you that great grip as well. So definitely go to official sports, use my code. Refs need love to to get them again with that code. I think it's $106 for top of the line killer referee footwear. You cannot beat that with a stick, please.
Speaker 1:Again, created by a fellow referee, leland Grant. Again, it's just a wonderful thing to do. He's got a lot of other things he's thinking about as well. So the more we support him now, the more great products we'll get in the future. So thank you so much for supporting Leland and make sure you use that code.
Speaker 1:I will also say, too, you could also use that code for the ref six pro app. If you get the ref six, or if you already have ref six, just use that code. Refs need love to. The next time you need to purchase your subscription, okay, and you get 20% off of that too. Fantastic, my gosh, 20% off. You're already buying the subscription or paying $9 a month or $7 a month, whatever. Hey, save yourself a couple bucks every month. It winds up being pretty significant at the end of the year $20 or $30 a year if you use that code, so do it for RefSick as well.
Speaker 1:All right, guys, and now for the eulogy. Again, I promise I don't think you're going to cry through this one, but I felt like it needed to be said as we end the high school soccer season here in Georgia. Ladies and gentlemen, friends, referees, coaches, players and even you screaming sideline parents with air horns and conspiracy theories, we are gathered here today to mourn the passing of the 2025 spring high school soccer season. It lived a full life about three months give or take, a cancellation for a thunderstorm or two. It brought with full life about three months give or take, a cancellation for a thunderstorm or two. It brought with it moments of triumph, heartbreak, offside calls that were definitely offside, no matter what coach Steve says.
Speaker 1:As a referee with over 10 years of experience, I've seen many seasons come and go, but this one hit a little different. Maybe it was the kids who actually said thank you after a game. Maybe it was the coaches who managed to get through an entire half without screaming handball like they were screaming bingo. Or maybe it was just the unusually good post-game snacks. Shout out to whoever brought those homemade chocolate chip cookies. You are seen To my fellow referees.
Speaker 1:We survived. We survived rain, wind, five different sets of lines on the field and that one coach who thinks every foul called against him is a personal vendetta. We survived the cold nights, the last minute assignments and the eternal mystery of how players can remember 40 TikTok dances, but not the fact that simply hitting the ball at some point in the challenge does not negate the fact you slid through the opponent cleaning them out, and it's still a foul To the players. You ran, you played, you occasionally remembered the laws of the game. Some of you learned sportsmanship. Some of you learned that yellow cards mean you must leave the field in high school. Either way, we're proud of you To the parents. You kept things interesting. Your passion is unmatched, your interpretation of the rules also unmatched by reality. But hey, you're part of the magic too.
Speaker 1:Now the fields grow quiet, the whistles are silent, our black socks can finally take a break from being misidentified as compression gear for senior citizens. But make no mistake, the spirit of the season lives on In our memories, in our laundry and in the lingering injuries that just won't seem to properly heal. Rest in peace. High school season, you were loved. You were chaotic, you were deeply and professionally sweaty. See you next spring. I'll miss you. I love you.
Speaker 1:And now for our podcast. Hello and welcome to the Refs Need Love 2 podcast, a show that gives you a real, raw and behind-the-scenes view of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch the referee. I'm your host, david Gerson, a grassroots referee and certified mentor with over 11 years of experience in over 1,300 matches under my belt. You can find me at refsneedlove2.com, on Instagram, tiktok and now YouTube.
Speaker 1:Today's guest is John Collins, a national coordinator of men and women's soccer officials for the NCAA. John brings a wealth of experience to the role, with a background that spans nearly every level of the game, from player to referee, assessor, administrator, playing and officiating, eventually rising through the ranks as a US soccer national referee and earning his emeritus status. In addition to leading NCAA officiating, john is a national referee coach for US soccer, a pro assessor and talent identifier, and a key member of the USYS East Region Referee Committee. His passion for referee development is rooted in a belief that integrity, character and mentorship are essential to success, both on and off the field. Through decades of service, john has helped shape the careers of countless officials and continues to lead efforts to raise the standard of officiating at the collegiate level and beyond. John, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you, david. It's a pleasure to be here. It sounds impressive when you read it like that. Thanks for that. Could you read that again for my wife? Seriously. I'd do that as a gift. Yeah, let me just say from someone that has been in this, this passionate advocacy, for a whole bunch of years, I do appreciate everything that you're doing for the referee program the program, as you know, I've described to you in private and given a voice to hundreds of thousands of we have in this country I sincerely appreciate it.
Speaker 1:And, john, I have to tell you your reputation precedes you. I've told a of people that we're going to be having a conversation. They're like oh, john's a great guy, love that guy.
Speaker 2:Like over and over again.
Speaker 1:None of those guys, whoever they are, that's right. You've obviously again involved in improv, involved in collegiate, involved in USYS. You've been someone who's been throughout all parts of the game and developed a stellar reputation, at least from the people I've spoken to, John, I haven't found the ones that don't like you. I'm sure there are a few out there, but we're not going to listen to them anyway.
Speaker 2:In my era of refereeing. When we went off the field, we always say, ah, we fooled them again, so we fooled them again. They think we know what we're doing, so that's great.
Speaker 1:Awesome man. Let's take a little time to learn a little about you. Okay, nca head of officials, but that wasn't always your full-time gig. You were actually in finance, and so how did you go from a finance professional to now national referee leader, national coach? Nca head of officials.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the bad news is I still have my day job in finance right.
Speaker 1:Don't we all still have our day job, I know?
Speaker 2:My, my colleague, my colleagues at the NCA, the men's basketball national courier's full-time job Mine is not sadly, we're not a revenue sport, but we are the largest number of collegiate officials.
Speaker 2:Ncaa officials is soccer. We are the largest now as of last year. Yes, yes, we are now the leader in terms of number of officials. We've grown to 5,380-ish, so we're very proud of that. But no, so I do have a day job. I work in private finance and that's. We got to pay the bills with something, right? So, and then and then, this is the job that just you're just thankful to get up and be able to be part of it at a level, a higher level, and be in a leadership role, which is a nice way when you're not running around like guys like you, because we're roughly the same age I'm only a couple of years older, but I don't have to. I don't have to worry about the fitnesses.
Speaker 1:I just want to follow up on that question, or that you mentioned a factoid there, about 5,300 officials, and we are the largest group of collegiate officials, like for a certain sport, so bigger than American football, because that's just a men's sport. Baseball is just a men's sport, but obviously soccer spans both men and women and our officials are doing both men and women's matches at all levels of the game. You know, I hadn't really thought about that. There's probably not too many sports that actually work like that, maybe only basketball.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the only the difference and the reason I think we win is because men's and women's basketball typically technically have two different rule books, right, so they're considered two different sports. Okay, okay, it is not the crossover that we have. So in the NCAA championship world and we'll probably get into a little bit later but in basketball, for example, men's basketball you'll have division one, men's basketball referees, and they'll work in that, that, that championship tournament. They basically work at that level. In college soccer you can work. Most of our referees work at all the levels, all three men and women.
Speaker 1:Right yeah, they all the levels, all three, men and women. Right yeah, they're doing one, they're doing division one, they're doing n-i-i-n-a-i-a. They're doing all over the place, men and women's too. Yeah, that's very interesting. I hadn't thought about that yeah, and in in soccer.
Speaker 2:So I'm, we're one, I'm one national coordinator. I have six championships men and women, division one, two and three, and right the men and the women, that each division has their own national coordinator. So I'm like'm like, hey, what am I doing wrong here? No, they're all great folks, but yeah. So it's a little structured a little differently, but for years and years we probably would be in the no, maybe 100 to 1,800 referees registered with the NCAA. That doesn't mean there's more. There's roughly 5,000 that work collegiate soccer, but in terms of registering with their NCAA, formally we are now.
Speaker 1:We're the leader in terms of numbers anyway, and so we're now trying to match with our passion for excellence, so to speak.
Speaker 2:So that's our goal.
Speaker 1:And listen.
Speaker 2:I hope you have me back at some point in the whether it's next year or the year after, whatever and I say, hey, David, we hit 6,000 and that would be a great result.
Speaker 1:So yeah, we're definitely going to talk about how someone becomes an NCA official, because I think that is a little opaque to a lot of people. So we're going to talk about that in our conversation. But I want to go back a little bit. So you actually you started before you were this NCA head of officials. You were a player and you actually spent time playing goalkeeper at the NCA level at Fairfield, just like current USMNT goalkeeper, matt Turner. So I just want to ask a little bit about you as a referee, because you were a national level referee. How did your playing experience as a goalkeeper shape the way you view referees and referee development?
Speaker 2:Well, first I have to say there's a big debate on campus whether Turner or Collins was the better goalkeeper for Fairfield, not even close Offline. I'll tell you about my experience playing Division I back in the early 90s. I only played for two years and my career was cut due to injuries and things like that. But no, yeah, being a player at a high level is really helpful, and not just for the game experience, but I think the coaching you get professional coaching and whatever and how you're taught it helps you give a perspective, right. You understand that perspective of how people at a high level think and really the stakeholders of our game, right? So from that standpoint it really for me it translated and I think one of the biggest things of being a player or a coach at a reasonably high level is you know how to become a critical thinker and that's a big thing. If I think I sent you one of my presentations. That's a big thing of mine. That's how my playing days it translated.
Speaker 2:And then, and really I got hurt. I was starter, brought in. The world would end if I didn't miss a game my freshman year and then my sophomore year. A couple injuries, concussion one of them, and then I lost my spot and my friend Andy did a great job and played and I just never lost the passion playing due to the injuries and those kinds of things and because I had been refereeing since I was 14, it was fairly easy for me to switch gears and find a new place to keep my passion for the game and what started out as part-time jobs when you're 14 and good money when you're in college. So you find the cheapy sandwiches at night. You get to buy sandwiches with me because I referee games versus working for a minimum wage. It's translated really well for me and I'm just thankful for all the life skills that refereeing gives you and things you can bring from your life into refereeing. For me it's anyway, it's been just a fun, fun ride and I'm just thankful I still get to participate at this level.
Speaker 1:So yeah, so I want to talk a little bit more about that in that specific role of the NCAA national coordinator for men's and women's soccer. What is that? Do it? How do you get involved?
Speaker 2:I've only been doing it for two years now, so I'll let you know when I figure it out. So my main role is I think I mentioned earlier we have six NCAA championships for soccer Division I, ii and III men and women. So I'm in charge and I oversee all the assignments to the six championship tournaments. I have a team of officiating advisors and I have a coordinator of officiating advisors and I have a coordinator of referee education and I'm in charge of that. I'm the team captain of that, if you will. I manage that team. All those people are great, wonderfully qualified. We have former FIFA referees and all sorts of things, and if you looked at the roster you'd be like Collins how the heck are you the captain of this team?
Speaker 2:And our job the six of us and then the seven with our coordinator of education we assign the match officials for the championship tournaments and then we also set the educational parameters for all college, ncaa or NCAA officials, I should say. And so we do that through a central hub. It's called the Center Circle, ncaa Soccer Center Circle or the Central Hub. If you want, I'll get you access so you can see what we do there and see if any of that resonates for you and we provide training video clips real time, any protests that come in. We are transparent, we post those out and that hub actually is shared by our 5,300 officials but also around 2,000 coaches and about 180 conference administrators and about 45 conference coordinators officials. So it's all out there and we can share information and points of emphasis and clips. Or this is what we saw and this is what we like, or this is something we need to crack down on, or this was protest and here's why and here's the decision in terms of that.
Speaker 2:So it's our job to really provide the coordinators of officials and the actual officials a framework for education throughout the season and throughout the year. And then I also work with the championship committees six championship committees and report to them in terms of who we're using and why. And I also I sit on the rules committee as a. I don't have a vote. I'm there as a consultant and I do have a voice, but I don't have a vote Right. So I sit on there and, for example, we have an experimental video review being tried out this fall. I sit on those meetings and so really just our job is to do our best to prepare our people to best serve college soccer from the officiating standpoint, and so whatever hours I have available to do, that's what we do in a hundred different ways right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do want to ask a little bit more. So I was not aware of the center circle education platform, which I'm really very interested in.
Speaker 1:We are so getting connected on that, because there's not a lot of official video analysis, coaching and decisions, like people actually stating decisions on hey, this is what happened, here's our position on it. Like even at FIFA, red was just, which is what the international officials and professional officials have access to. They've just redone it. There's very little information on there. I tried searching the other day, looking for video clips on what is examples of a deliberate play versus not a deliberate play for offside purposes. Couldn't find anything. Couldn't find a thing, and so it's really hard to find clips where you actually have a body willing to say, hey, this is this and this is why it's very difficult. I love to hear that you're doing that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and one of the things and I don't want to get you too excited about it, but one of the things we have is you make the call right, you post it, everybody can log in and make their call, we can see who answers what and whatever, maybe if there's room for comments, and then two or three days later we'll give the preferred answer and it's a real robust platform. It's called RefQuest. I don't know if you've heard of RefQuest, but it's used by all sports and RefQuest is the partner with the NCAA through 2032, I believe. And yeah, it's great and it's a great way to get information out to people, because you can't get together for those kind of people throughout the country. So it's a good way to provide that kind of analysis and framework for decisions and rules and things like that. And then, obviously, the officials can work with their coordinators officials for the conferences.
Speaker 1:They work for those kinds of things and all right, I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit here, john. Okay, so this wasn't our discussed conversations going into this. But yeah, I just want to ask. With the proliferation of soccer now, football all across the world is become obvious. It's the largest sport in the world, but here in America is going to be more and more popular, and you're seeing so much international influence into all these programs, whether it's division one, two, three, you name it, it's a lot of internationals. Why, in this day and age, do we still have a separate rule book for college soccer and why not just adopt ifab? I understand participation and want to have more substitutions. Right, it's still a school sport. I get that, but why not just adopt more of what the ifab language is, as opposed to having a whole separate rule book?
Speaker 2:yeah, good question. So I didn't realize you going to try to get me fired here. Sorry, tony.
Speaker 1:No no.
Speaker 2:So the NCAA is the governing body, right, they have their own rule books for everything. Now, they do have a couple of sports I should say that where they don't have their own rule book and they use the international rules of competition and things like that.
Speaker 1:I think like gymnastics or some water polo, I don't know, maybe tennis or something like that who knows?
Speaker 2:yeah, but so the rules pretty much line up. The playing rules, the core playing rules, line up with ifab and and yeah, and the secretary rules editor, rich grady name. He's a former fifa referee and I, we, we do our best to consult to make sure we line up as much as we can with IFAB and hopefully the rules are more administrative. The big thing we have that. The big difference is the clock right, clock on the board Big time.
Speaker 2:Big time. That's it really. Years ago I would say, oh geez, there's no way IFAB and NCAA will get together because IFAB will never card coaches Right, and FIFA has been. They had done trials in the past with doing like 30 minutes running clock, stopping the clock all those things.
Speaker 2:The stakeholders are just not ready for the clock to be off the board. I can't explain why, at least in this forum. But I have to say the NCAA is a membership driven organization between member conferences and member institutions and they're very serious about the policies and procedures in place and how they create their roles. And and and it's very robust, and if someone would ever say, geez, I didn't have a say or I didn't know, I'd be like that is not true. It's a very institutionalized in that, but I I don't know.
Speaker 1:I don't know what to tell you. It's okay. Listen, there's a lot of stakeholders involved. It's not a simple answer, without a doubt. Right, there's a lot of, I think, inertia because it's been there for a long time and it's so funny for anytime. I do a post on my channel about high school or college and talk about the clock you'll have about, you'll probably have a lot of people from Europe oh, that's so American, that's so ridiculous. And then on posts where I do something about some like someone's doing some time wasting or something nature then you'll have the same idiots like man, they should institute a clock. Yeah, I think, because it's a American, that there's a lot of people who have naysayers about it. There certainly are some benefits without it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then that's a cultural thing. I don't know without it. Yeah, and then that's a cultural thing, I think, totally, I don't know. You could point to any ncaa sport. That clock is not visible. You know from a spectator standpoint and coaches understand what they can do and where they are at any given moment. So yeah, and the argument. The other argument against is and I'd be totally fine if we went to a full ifab yeah, but the other argument is look what ifab has done in the, or fifa has done in the last handful of years the World Cups and whatnot. How much time are we adding?
Speaker 1:We're like accounting for every second.
Speaker 2:It's the equivalent of stopping the clock.
Speaker 1:Exactly. It's not a simple thing, without a doubt. So I appreciate your candid response and I recognize it's not.
Speaker 2:And I will say it does present some game management differences.
Speaker 1:at the end of a game some game management differences at the end of a game. Oh well, that's the thing. It's so interesting. We talked about that there's this finite clock. In soccer, as opposed to college football or NCAA basketball, you've got lots of opportunities for the opposing team to do things to potentially stop the clock, whether it's all the timeout, or foul someone or something like that, and you stop clock and get possession. Well, in soccer, if it's a throw in, someone could just like slow jog down to take that throw in and 15, 20 seconds off that clock or whatever it is. There's just ways to manipulate the system. It's not as not as simple, and then there can be a lot of consternation and people getting frustrated oh my gosh, the time's running down. All that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:There's running down all that kind of stuff. There's some different game management techniques and it's the old. What you allow, you encourage them to keep doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I want to talk about how people can get into college soccer and actually get NCAA assignments. Let's talk a little bit about, first off, climbing the referee ladder. What do you see that as? How would someone go about climbing that referee ladder from going from grassroots to maybe that high-level USYS type games and then eventually soccer? How do you see that progressing? How much time do you think that takes?
Speaker 2:There's NEI, junior college and other organizations. But let's say, where does college soccer fit into the pyramid, so to speak? Right, and so for me it's somewhere between when you go from lower level youth to more advanced youth, to we're paying lots of money to professional coaches, youth to amateur and then professional and whatever. So it probably fits in right into the amateur, between the amateur and professional, and it's arguably the Division III is mostly. You could argue that's more on the amateur, between the amateur and the professional, and arguably the Division III is mostly you could argue that's more on the amateur side. Once you start getting into Division II and Division I, we're rounding the corner to sports entertainment. So we're not off. Nil is a thing in all sports and it's going to continue to be a thing at all sports. So we're right on the cusp of what I would say amateur soccer, top amateur soccer around the bend of sports entertainment, somewhere in there. And from a progression standpoint, if you're working at the top youth level and at the amateur level, ncaa soccer is probably a fit for you. If you're interested in doing it, if you're okay with keeping the time on the board, come to the NCAA. But that's where it fits in and really, if you want to get involved, you really should be working that. U19, u18, u19, the under 23s and UPSLs and NPSLs and those kinds of things.
Speaker 2:Regional referee I would say that's a great target. If you're a regional referee, I'd love. I think that's a really good fit. We do not have 5,380 regional referees in this country. I don't believe. For others that do not aspire to be regional referee but really want to work at a very high level, I think it's a good fit. And they're working in their state associations. The amateur game I think that's a good fit.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about that. So for those referees who are looking for that, that next level of challenge, that are comfortable at that 18, 19,. You're doing maybe the UPSL in their area, as you said, the adult amateur competitive not, we're not talking Sunday league. I mean, these are competitive 11 V 11 intense games. College might be the right thing. How does someone go about finding their way into college, though? Is it just a national thing? I mean, there's is it a national assigner. How does someone get started?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the assignments. So listen, my, when you get to me and the championships, we're a member organization, right, so you don't start with me. You work for conferences, right, and get recommended to the championships and then my art team evaluates people and who we're going to use and, of course, where the games are and who's available and best of the best and all those things. But I thing is, really, if you're involved working at a high level and you keep working more challenging games and whatnot, it's really talking to the other senior referees. The referees are more experienced. They'll tell you oh, in my area, joined this organization, or how I work for this junior college assigner or this division three assigner or this division one assigner, and we're always looking for good people, right, and I think that's the best way to go about doing it. You could go on the NCAA website and fill out an interest form.
Speaker 2:There's a large group called the NYSOA, that is the National Collegiate Soccer Officials Association. Roughly 90% of our NCAA registered referees are members of NYSOA. So there's ways to get into those organizations and whatnot. But really it's about moving up and I think you'll agree with this. I hope you will. Referees talk to each other, right, just working at a high level and being like, hey, what's next for me? And oh, this might be more challenging for you, and college soccer is really challenging. It's really the best. It's really competitive. It's really the best. It's really competitive. It's fat and a lot of in a lot of cases it is not a taboo subject. I can tell you Carrie Seitz and Brian Hall and I talk all the time and it's part of the. It's part of the conversation in your local referee communities and how to get involved and if you have a question, casoccerofficials at gmailcom.
Speaker 1:Send me an email and we'll get you pointed to the right people to ask those questions and answer them for you. Yeah, so my understanding. And again, I have not. So I've done some college friendlies, but it has not been anything like sanctions, it's been preseason games. But in my area I believe we have a Georgia chapter of NISOA, if I'm not mistaken. So there's an application process to go there. Same thing for South Carolina. So there are some regional chapters of these national bodies and then there are assigners. Each one of these different conferences may have an assigner and there are some assigners who cover large parts of the United States and some that do smaller, but it's just like anything else.
Speaker 1:Like in my area if you're doing MLS, Next you got Mike Wright. If you're doing ECNL on the south side, you got Tariq. It really depends on who's assigning those games.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the assignments are what we call them as the conference coordinators. Those are the people that manage the vast majority of assignments at the collegiate level, and that's no different than US soccer and your local area. Who assigns what events or what leagues or whatnot? But, yeah, no, it's listen, we're always looking for good people, so it's a good challenge. And the other part is it's really it's not competing against US soccer, it's really developing people at a high level, and I don't know what to say.
Speaker 1:I just want to say I just hate when people poo like things like college soccer or high school soccer or recreational soccer. I had someone just the other day say to me oh, you're wasting your time in high school. I was like why? Like it's fun, the kids have fun, there's like atmosphere.
Speaker 2:Where's your passion? I know I was like, oh, I have a chance to go out and work in a venue where I'm really passionate and have a lot of fun with and I feel like I contribute and serve the game. Yeah, don't do that. Of course you do that. It's like settle down, like I don't want to be a college soccer referee, that's okay.
Speaker 1:What can we do to help you? Right, you know. So there's a game for everyone. That's what I always say that's what I say. I do want to ask you how is so, aside from the clock, like, obviously I understand the clock, it's a thing. How is reffing in college different from other officiating environments?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. That wasn't on the cheat sheet, david. No, this is good Now. So back in 1993, when I first started refereeing college soccer, it was very different. It was we didn't like to give out a lot of red cards and we did a lot of yellow cards in college, and the running joke would be like that's a red card in a US soccer game and that's a yellow card in college on a nasty tackle right, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I just want to say, as you bring that up, like I have noticed, college is physical. It is a physical game. My gosh.
Speaker 2:But think of the percentage of players that play through the youth level or the high school level, the percentage of players that play at the collegiate level not a big number. And so a lot of times they're big and strong and or fast right, and a lot of skill, or you're a clogger and your job is to clog people up, right. Yeah, no, it's a very physical game, like I said I think earlier, it's speed, a lot of speed, physical, those kinds of things. And back when I started in the early nineties in college, it's a kind of we call it a very different than US soccer game. Not so much anymore, and in fact we don't expect it to be called differently.
Speaker 2:If that's a red card here, it's a red card there, right. And so we've come really leaps and bounds over the last however many years, whatever that math is for me being involved in terms of closing the gap, in terms of how things are officiated, and we're getting closer and closer. And for my money, it's really not all that different in terms of fish eating, and the difference was coaches really had a lot more say on the college side where back in the day and they still have a lot of say, don't get me wrong, but that culture has changed, where a lot of younger coaches have come through now and a foul is a foul, a red card is a red card, those kinds of things. I think what you'll see probably the main difference right now is you'll see how are treated. If you watch a professional game, there won't be too much of a conversation when the referee goes over there. Typically they come on over, give the caution or whatever they're doing. There's a little more management on the coaches on the college side.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's a bad thing. No, listen, I think it's a good thing. I think these days, every game's being videoed right, so that's a massive change. Everything can be seen in slow motion now, sure. So again, referees are being evaluated right and they're being assessed with video as well, so they need to make sure that they're applying the laws of the game. Do you use the same considerations for challenges in?
Speaker 2:the.
Speaker 1:NCAA yeah, okay, so the gap definitely should be coming together now, especially as, my gosh, it seems like at division one, level 40, 50% of the rosters are internationals. You got kids from Brazil and Spain and Sweden and England, my gosh it is.
Speaker 2:You'll actually see you'll actually see it going the other way now. So, for example, if there's a challenge and at the professional level versus the amateur level of soccer, we could say, professional, that's a yellow card, and here's why, and the amateurs, no, it's a red, we want a red and we tend to lean towards the red. And you actually see some instances where I won't be surprised if that's a red card for NCAA and that is a yellow card in MLS or USL championships. I'm not saying either is wrong. It's just we are so close now. We are so close. It's literally just leaning one way or the other in terms of how referees are taught consideration, and remember, pro is sports entertainment. We are around on the corner for sports entertainment and the NCAA side, so we're really close.
Speaker 1:Can you talk about that one second, like when you say the words sports entertainment, like I get? Obviously we've got something that's on TV. We're trying to keep it competitive. We want to keep everyone on the field. A lot of times it feels. What does that mean to you? Sports entertainment as it relates to the soccer that we're seeing being played?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so go on ESPN plus. Every division one game is streamed right, with announcers and all sorts of things, which is make a lot of money. There's NIL money. I think there'll be a point where players will be making more money in college than they do in the pros for their first year or so, right? Not unlike the Caitlin Clark type of thing, right. So there's a lot of and a lot of those players will end up playing professionally, right. So it's the precursor for professionalism a lot of times.
Speaker 2:Division three is a little different, right. The focus there is really on amateurism and participation and those kinds of things. The biggest difference, honestly, between the games and if you ever go to a clinic that I'm speaking at or someone, there's three athletes. At the end of the day, we got to get to class. We got to create an environment where they're going to class tomorrow. I can't have people missing class because they have a head injury, because they took an elbow on an aerial challenge or something, or they're limping in on crutches because you were just had such little regard for their safety. Can't happen, and so this is why we're more on the safety side, I would say, and you'll see considerations as thought through by professional athletes with professional referees are slightly different, sometimes Just kind of geez. If that was me, I'm giving a red card. Why is referee X giving a yellow in a professional game, right? These are the things. It's a different environment without a doubt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to talk a little about your role as an assessor and evaluator for referees. You're doing it at the pro level, but obviously you're looking for officials to be in the championships or the biggest competitions that there are in the NCAA. Can you talk a little bit about when you're evaluating for NCAA or pro? What are the qualities or the intangibles that stand out the most to you? What are you looking for in a ref?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good question. One of the national camps a couple of years ago, rick Getty was still in development, the director of referee development and he put up a quote. This is back when the national coaches went with the referees and it's a quote from Jill Ellis, our former national team, women's national team coach, and she's. We're looking for skillful thinkers, right, and so you know what we're looking for the same people. We're looking for critical, skillful thinkers, right, that can manage games, apply the laws, manage games, manage participants, and they're they got to be good athletes now. So there's no want to be an emeritus like me, then hang in a certain circle, but we're looking for we're looking for athletes that can manage athletes and are skillful thinkers. For me, that's. Those are the big things.
Speaker 2:And when you get to the higher levels and the professional or the NCAA levels even, whatever it's all about, what was your plan, what's planning going into the game and how did you adjust your plan based on information that you obtained, or did you pivot, or did you make changes, or did it all go to plan? Did you prepare perfectly and you knew everything that was going to happen? So this is the star player. All right, we know that's the star player and we know they're going to come after that person or whatever. It is right. So it's really the critical thinker from planning to executing, the critical thinker from planning to executing. And you know the one thing I don't like now? I've heard the term, you've heard the term keep it simple. Yeah, keep it simple is stupid.
Speaker 2:That doesn't really apply at the professional level and the reason is that doesn't happen by accident. At the professional level, you keep it simple because you're doing all the things you need to do to create an environment, that you're just making expected decisions. That's keeping it simple at the professional level, because you've prepared, you've planned, you move you position, you have presence, you know when to manage players, you know when to manage incidents, whatever. At the end of the day, it's wow, that professional referee, that game was easy. No, it wasn't. Is that correct? There's no such thing as an easy professional game, in my opinion anyway. And so it's.
Speaker 2:it's the culmination of being able to plan, prepare and execute, to get to expected decisions, to make it look and then to make it entertaining yeah right for the fans and making entertaining is just let the professionals do the professional things and you're there to guide them with your planning, presence and execution. So that's for me that's a big, long-winded way of saying those things. But lower levels keep it simple call foul. So yeah, so we're looking for that's the higher level thinking right, or at least for me it is anyway. And so, yeah, it is anyway, and so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I totally appreciate that. I think there's definitely so much that you could be doing in terms of your match day prep and especially, again, you talked about every game. Is videotape right For the collegiate level? You can be taking some time to to watch and see tendencies of teams, how they play, formations, as you said, start players, things of that nature, people who are maybe the hothead of the team, whatever that might be. There's all sorts of ways that not only prepare to deal with it on the field, but also that you're mentally prepared. You know that these things are going to happen coming on in. There are just so many things off the field you could do to be a great referee.
Speaker 2:And you can prepare at all levels. There's always information available. At whatever level you're working, what are the stakes of the game? Right, it's even that level.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely yeah. I would love to ask you a couple of questions just about mentoring. So you're a national coach as well. National referee coach. Yeah, so you're a national referee coach. I want to talk about, first off, why you do that. How important is it for you to be giving back and supporting the next generation? You were a national referee. How important is it for you now to give back and develop those next referees who are coming up?
Speaker 2:I hate to sound sappy, but I just I love it. I love it. And when they combined the assessor and instructor grades and made us into coaches, however many handful of years ago or whatever that was I, I took that literally and I was like, all right, I'm a coach now. I'm no different than coach on the side, and so most I'm a cheerleader. First, I, I, my goal in life is to just be there and cheer on the referees.
Speaker 2:If I'm at an event and I'm a coach and a referee gives a penalty kick decision, I happen to be walking by, I'll yell a great call. I don't care, really don't, I'm just a cheerleader. And the whole point is to, if you can help people or facilitate conversations where they can start thinking about how they can be a little bit better, how they get something a little differently, I'm happy. It's all about giving them the referees enough, just a little, just to push them in a direction in a conversation, to help them critically think to the right answer. I love that stuff all day long and I love working with young people.
Speaker 1:It's exciting and I learn a lot from them too.
Speaker 2:Again, hate to sound sappy. I love that stuff. I just I love being on the field and just walking around. I don't get, I don't get. I don't get a lot of chances to do that, to go to a lot of events. I don't. I can't travel for long periods of time because I have a special needs assignment, but when I do, I'm out there for a day or two or three. I just I love doing the coaching.
Speaker 1:Yeah, john, I literally run a channel called Refs Need Love Too. I totally get it. I totally get it. A couple more questions for you. So what do you believe? What do you think are the biggest challenges facing our referee community today?
Speaker 2:Oh numbers. They're overexposed and overworked. That's easy, and part of it is some of the culture of behavior that has scared people away. Part of it's the pandemic. Lots of different referee pools were significantly reduced as a result of that. For me, I think we need a lot more people involved. I always give the speech. Listen, if you like soccer, if you're passionate about it, if you've ever watched a game, but really, if you're a good person, if you're a good person and you like soccer, come aboard, we'll work with you, we'll help you become a referee or we'll help you and again, we're not saying you have to go and work in the world cup. Meet people at every level, and, and the problem is, people get burned out because they're doing too much, and so I'd love to see us really focus on bringing more and more people into the mix, and that will create more opportunities and just not a bunch of tired people out there that get aggravated when they're not treated well.
Speaker 2:It's a lot easier when you're not treated well and it's your one game of the day to digest that than it is when you get off your fourth game, which is three too many. And what the hell am I doing this for Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the biggest challenge that, just from my perspective, is a lack of community for many referees, and I think it's. You know, what I often see is I'll see a post or someone will send me a message and they've had a really bad game and they are thinking about giving up, and it's just because they they take it home with them, right? So they've had a bad game, they feel like they've made a bad call that could have cost the outcome of the match, or someone. They've had an aggressive spectator or aggressive coach or aggressive player and they're like why am I doing this? And then they go home. They're an independent contractor, right. They go back to their house.
Speaker 1:Their wife and kids don't understand. Their friends or their colleagues they work with don't understand when they're on their own, like stewing with this, and it's like building up in their mind like forget this, I'm, I'm not going back, I'm not doing it anymore. I wish there was more of a place that referees could share these experiences together, without judgment, without judgment, in a positive, supportive environment, and I think, especially those new referees who are starting out whether it's a teenager or a 40 year old, like I was when I started finding a mentor. Finding a like someone who can help guide them through the experience, can share these experiences with. That is so huge and I love what you're doing with the education in the NCAA and the center circle and you're currently throwing this out.
Speaker 2:If you go to the NCAA center circle, if you have a rules question, you want to ask Rich Grady, you just go on there and say ask Rich Grady a rules question. You have a question for Collins, ask us a question. It comes to us and we'll respond privately and if you think it's important we'll share with the group. But let me just touch on something you said you know because you didn't ask, but I feel I'm not shy. As you've probably determined, experiential learning is so important and you said you've been doing this for 10 years.
Speaker 1:Yes, sir, 11 now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you came in the video clips, considerations, all this kind of stuff, right, planning softwares, all this. We didn't have any of that, right? We had to go to meetings and be in the community and talk to people, right, and there's a big difference. Listen, community and talk to people, Right, and, and there's a big difference, listen, there's. Webinars are great for those kinds of things, but it's also really great to get in a room with people and and listen to the stories and go out to have dinner and whatever. That's how you find your mentors, yeah, right, it's. Oh hey, this is John. We met the other night. I'd had a game. Could I ask you a question, right? And then, by the way, code, code, I'm asking you to be my mentor, right?
Speaker 2:More experiential learning I think it is where we need to go, and you can see right from the video clip stuff now with us soccer, we like the field sessions. What is that? It's experiential learning in person, with people. Sense, right, agreed, agreed. So anytime you're in a clinic, even if you're in a clinic, if we do a webinar, that's great. But if we do a, the same group of people and the instructors walking around body lengths, we're having a good time. We're digging in whatever. That experience is so much different and so it can do for experiential learning all the way through. I think will be helpful. And that's, listen, covid was not fun, right, and it's going to take a decade. Decade, pick an area of the world or the whatever doesn't matter, right? No, we're working our way back.
Speaker 2:So I think, the more experiential learning we can get to, because experiential learning to my generation of referees was always to say we train when we referee, that's how we train, that's our experiential learning, doing games but, anyway, they think more and more of that, which is why I love referees getting out of their comfort zone, being invited to tournaments, saying oh, saying, oh, geez, I'm going to go referee in Idaho, or whether Bowen is sending people or whatever it is. I think that's great. And the fact building education and partnerships in terms of training around that, I think, is so big. And kudos to assigners that are open to bringing people in from out of the area too. I think that's so important.
Speaker 2:And just to not to tell you an old war story, when I was coming through you would go to a youth regional. So that was a big one, right, ooh, okay. Or the youth or amateur regionals or whatever it was right. You learn so much just being in the referee tent talking to other people from other states, things you've never considered. That's the priceless stuff and that's the community I think you're talking about. Right, I got friends all over the country. I do this to build my friend network. This is great, but yeah, no, I think the more and more we can do that I think it's. And there's this generation, the younger people. They have the ref, ref his life, or whatever they call it, and they go from tournament to tournament and they do all those things and that's great.
Speaker 2:But the more we can do that even at the local level just bringing people to work with them and giving them opportunities to to think about it a little bit more than just going home I think that's good because it just gives you a tremendous amount of life skills for the right kids.
Speaker 1:I completely agree, man John, just as a wrap up here. So for those who are, let's say, NCAA college curious, college referee curious, where should they go to find out more and potentially sign up so you can come?
Speaker 2:you can email me at NCAA soccer officials at gmailcom. That's easy enough. There is a and I'll point you to the interest form on the website the NCAA website and if you and I'll point you to the right referee leaders if you're interested in working with any any of the conference assigners or things like that, or if you and I'll point you to the right referee leaders, if you're interested in working with any any of the conference assigners or things like that, or if you're interested in ISO, like we can redirect you and get you involved and see if it's a good fit. And, like I said, we are looking for good people. Good people good people meaning good individuals- kind people.
Speaker 1:Listen, I went to college with a good Italian friend of mine. His name is Pete Civitelli and that was the highest compliment he can give you. He's like hey, you know you, good people, good people, yes, it says it all right there. Good people, good character, work hard, do the planning in advance plan plan to your fitness, your nutrition, watching films, studying the laws of the game, getting to know the teams, getting to know your crewmates, having a good pregame everything you need to do in advance to be successful on the field.
Speaker 1:Trust me, it's all about being good people and a good referee too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I think we're out of time here soon, but anytime I'm happy to come back. But I think you one of the things you wanted to talk about was what's the catchphrase? You like right, I'm going to give you one right. So you've heard of the one, I think expect the unexpected as a right. Yeah, a couple of years ago, pro changed that and I totally stolen and I use it every chance I get Right. And so, instead of expecting the unexpected, plan for the unexpected, what's your plan? What's your plan? How do you pivot, how do you make adjustments? And that's everything from off the field, on the field, off the field. Again, to those kinds of things.
Speaker 1:I love that Plan for the unexpected Wise words from John Collin. It's fantastic man, John, thank you so much for being on the pod today. I really enjoyed this conversation.
Speaker 2:Anytime, happy to help Anything I can do. And again, thank you for everything you're doing with the. What do you call it the 98% of referees? That's right, yeah, what do you call it? The 98% of referees? That's right. Yeah, I'm a finance guy, I should be able to do the math. Yeah, I call it the hundreds of thousands, 100,000 referees.
Speaker 1:I think that's your 98%. Yeah, the 98% that are grassroots, certainly, but it's the players, the coaches, the spectators, it's the entire community.
Speaker 2:We're trying to change a culture of a culture without a doubt and culture of a culture without a doubt and provide community for those 98% without and anytime we see someone like Ishmael working in the world cup or Tori Pensogan in the world cup final, or any of our referees working at the highest level, at the MLS or at the collegiate level, the national championship game or whatever it is trust me when I tell you none of that happens without the 98% of people doing it, and so when you see someone like that performing at that level, that's all of us. So I hope your community and your followers understand that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's wonderful, john. Again, thank you so much for being on the pod. Guys, I hope everyone really enjoyed today's podcast. This is just a fantastic conversation. I'm actually, I have to tell you, I worked a UPSL game last night and one of my colleagues was like, are you doing college this next year? And I was like, okay, he talked me into it. I was like now I need to sign up. I'm definitely good, john. I will let you know when I work my first college match. It'll be fun, but I'm excited and inspired.
Speaker 1:If you're doing the preseason games or the spring games, do the regular season get the big money. What are you doing? I got to do it. I've done a couple of friendlies in the spring. It's time to really do the main season. But, john, again, thank you so much. And just for everyone out there, again, we so appreciate your support of the Refs. Need Love To channel. It really has had just I can't even describe how many people message me about how much they enjoy the content that we're putting out there. But again, that sense of community, that someone hears me, that someone understands me. So, guys, when you listen to the podcast, you share it with your friend or you go to the rest of the Love2Online store and you purchase some fun socks, or you purchase the flags or cards or something of that nature. All of that gets poured back into making this channel possible. Seriously, I so appreciate you, john. I so appreciate you and everyone out there. I wish you all the best and I hope your next match is red card free. We'll see you next time.