REFS NEED LOVE TOO
An honest perspective from the 3rd team on the pitch... the referees. Through humor, analysis and education, we are slowly changing how people view referees and officials in all sports. We care and have a love for the game as much as any player or coach. Sometimes even more. Youth soccer (proper football) is a multi-billion $ industry in the US. Tremendous money is spent on players, competitions, travel etc., but almost nothing spent on developing the next generation of referees. I hope that this Podcast inspires, educates and humanizes the next generation of referees for their own development and appreciation from the players, coaches and spectators they need to work alongside.
REFS NEED LOVE TOO
You're Not the Bad Guy: Why People Get Angry at Refs and What to Do About It
Ever wonder why soccer fields seem to ignite emotions like few other places? In this eye-opening conversation, Dr. Ryan Martin – known as the Anger Professor – reveals the perfect psychological storm that makes pitches emotional pressure cookers.
Dr. Martin challenges our fundamental understanding of anger, explaining it's not inherently negative but rather a signal of perceived injustice or goal-blocking. On the soccer field, this manifests when calls feel unfair or when someone believes the referee is preventing them from achieving their objective – winning. What makes sporting events uniquely volatile is the combination of high stakes, subjective decisions, and elevated physiological states that mirror emotional arousal.
For referees facing sideline rage, Martin offers practical wisdom: find your "pause button" by taking just a few seconds before responding to heated situations. This tiny delay gives everyone's brain oxygen to move past the reactive "lizard brain" response. Communication proves equally crucial – briefly explaining significant decisions helps fill information vacuums that would otherwise be filled with assumptions about bias or incompetence.
The most powerful insight might be his explanation of why referees ruminate on negative interactions long after matches end. This tendency to replay difficult moments isn't a weakness but evidence of caring deeply about excellence. While emotionally uncomfortable, this reflection process ultimately drives improvement when channeled constructively.
Whether you're a veteran referee seeking better match management techniques, a coach wanting to understand sideline dynamics, or a parent navigating youth sports culture, this conversation offers transformative perspectives on channeling emotions productively in competitive environments.
Ready to transform how you handle emotions on the pitch? Listen now and discover why understanding anger might be the most powerful tool in your referee toolkit.
Dr. Ryan Martin can be found here:
https://alltheragescience.com/martin/
https://www.instagram.com/angerprofessor/
https://www.tiktok.com/@angerprofessor
Hello and welcome to the Refs Need Love 2 podcast, a show that gives you a real, raw and behind the scenes view of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch the referee. I'm your host, david Gerson, a grassroots referee and certified mentor with over 11 years of experience, over 1300 matches under my belt. You can find me at refsneedlove2.com, on Instagram, on TikTok and on YouTube. Today we have a very special guest, dr Ryan Martin.
Speaker 1:Dr Ryan Martin, aka the Anger Professor, is a leading expert on emotional wellness and anger management, something we deal with a lot as referees. He helps people master the emotional challenges and harness the power of emotions, especially anger, for personal growth and success. His work focuses on delivering practical, research-backed strategies through clear, direct and actionable advice. Ryan is the author of the book called how to Deal with Angry People and why we Get Mad how to Use your Anger for Positive Change. I'll make sure to put a link in the show notes. He breaks down why people experience anger, how to channel it productively and how to effectively engage with others in emotionally charged situations. His upcoming book Emotion Hacks 50 Ways to Feel Better Fast comes out in January. In his TED Talk, why we Get Mad and why it's Healthy. Ryan draws from his career studying what makes people mad to explain some of the cognitive processes behind anger and why a healthy dose of it can actually be useful. Ryan, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me. I can't wait to talk to you about this. I've been following you for a long time and I'm thrilled to be here with you.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I'm so thrilled to talk to you. We actually deal with anger around the soccer pitch and I think you know. Tell us a little bit about your relationship with soccer beyond being an anger professor. How have you become involved with the game?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I will just start by saying, as objectively speaking as I possibly can, it is the greatest sport in the world. Uh, I've been playing it my entire life. My youngest son plays and my oldest played it briefly. My youngest son plays it and I I coach him currently actually just finished coaching my last game for him. He's moving on to a different club and we decided he needed someone coaching him who wasn't me. So I'm, I think, I'm, I think I'm hanging up my whistle, but had an absolute blast with that.
Speaker 1:How old is the son who you just finished coaching? He's 13. He's 13. Yeah, I was very similar with my kids as well. I made it through U11, u12. And then, when they got to that very competitive stage at 13, it was time for me to step back and do something else and just focus on refereeing, which I still had, which was nice, and who knows, maybe being a referee is in your future.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is the part of soccer I've actually not really done right. I've coached, I've played. I've never been a ref, so maybe that's next Welcome to our world.
Speaker 1:I want to start this off and really dive in. We talk about emotional intelligence and game management a good deal at the higher levels of refereeing. For the large majority of referees out there, they very rarely get any coaching or development in this. We've covered it a few times in our podcast, but it is a really big deal and I want to start actually with a quote from your book. It says anger is not a bad emotion. It's a healthy one when we listen to it. Understanding someone's anger can reveal what they care about most and listening helps us see the values behind the emotion. It really got me thinking. It's like man. If we would stop just reacting to anger, maybe think about why someone might be angry. Maybe you know we could be a bit more empathetic on the pitch, but I want to understand that statement and from your perspective, from a research-based perspective and all the work you've done, why do you feel that anger is not a bad emotion?
Speaker 2:I'm so glad we're starting here because this is really relevant to the conversation. Anger exists as an emotion because it alerts us to injustice or poor treatment and it energizes us to confront that. When I get angry, it's one of the ways my brain communicates hey, you're being treated unfairly or something's blocking your goals. Here's some energy to deal with that and it's rooted in our evolutionary history. It's fundamentally good for us. It helps us solve problems. The issue that we have and when it becomes overwhelming is when we can't control it effectively we channel it into negative behaviors or we do things that are harmful or react impulsively, which I suspect is an issue. It's family or players or coaches reacting impulsively and negatively to a call they didn't like. But it isn't necessarily the anger that is the problem. It's just how it's playing out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's very interesting.
Speaker 1:I mean, we definitely experience a lot of anger on the pitch at times.
Speaker 1:I don't want to say it's all the time and you can have a full match and there's no anger, but there are definitely moments, if you've been a referee for any period of time, that you've experienced anger from coaches, you've experienced anger from players, you've experienced anger from spectators who are at the match and prepping for this podcast and reading about you know, anger, really talking about some type of perceived injustice.
Speaker 1:It might be helpful can't do it every time we hear anger and emotional outbursts, but if there is an ascent, a descent, that's happening, it's persistent descent or it's really becoming distracting out there to just take a moment, try and understand what might be behind the that. There's again what you said some type of perceived injustice that they're feeling and it's manifesting as anger maybe not at a youth sporting event, but it is something that happens. I do want to ask about specifically a soccer pitch or any youth sporting event. It seems like we see a lot of anger and frustration around a soccer pitch. What is it that makes a soccer pitch or any sporting event such an emotionally explosive environment?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think if we think about provocations why people get angry we see essentially three types of provocations. A couple we've mentioned are injustice right, I am not being treated fairly that's probably the most common on the soccer field. Now we can debate the word injustice, because that's a pretty big word to use about a youth sporting thing, but ultimately that type of thing like it's a lack of fairness. Then there's poor treatment. This is probably what we see least.
Speaker 2:But if a kid or an athlete feels targeted I keep saying kid, I do use sports, but I know there are adults too If they feel targeted or feel the ref or other players are being unkind, that plays itself out. The last piece is what we call goal blocking. It's essentially I'm trying to accomplish something and something is interfering, and so the something you're trying to accomplish as a player or as a coach is winning the game. If something interferes, in this case a referee, that's where that anger comes from. One of the big questions here is and this one's really tricky because this is deeply subjective, but it's sort of the broader scope how important is this? A lot of times what I hear people say is it's only a game, hey, it's just youth sports or whatever, and I totally get that. Fundamentally we're talking about something that maybe isn't as important as a whole bunch of other stuff.
Speaker 2:The challenge is especially when dealing with kids. It is to them. These things mean a lot to the kids, whether they should or shouldn't they do, everything ends up being elevated from that perspective. So we've talked about the provocation. I think it's maybe more objective on paper than we think Ultimately feels a little subjective. You know the calls that referees make feel subjective. I think there's different perceptions there from the people who are seeing, which means that you can interpret them in lots of different ways. But then the final thing is especially anger, but also anxiety. Anger in particular is much more likely to happen when you're dealing with elevated heart rates and additional physiological activation. So what you've got is almost a perfect storm. You've got things that matter to the people who are playing, some subjectivity, opportunity for provocation and this already heightened, elevated physiological state.
Speaker 1:Okay, You're blowing my mind. I have to go back to a couple of different things. No, seriously, I literally have goosebumps like pinpricks all of my arms. There were so many amazing things you said there, so I don't want to lose it. Okay, the first thing I'm going to go back to, if my memory serves me, is again some of these reasons the perceived injustice right, Someone's stopping you from reaching the goal which is winning the game, and I think we could all appreciate, first off, on the perceived injustice, how important it is to have communication skills as a referee to explain why you might have made a call where someone's really losing their SHIT they're really upset about.
Speaker 1:And again, if it's a handball decision, a card or a tackle and they think they're using their shoulder but it was actually a shoulder into their back or something, Having the ability to explain the decision-making process on some calls can go a long way to managing emotions. They're trying to accomplish a goal and a referee has made a call that perceives to stop them from reaching that goal and so therefore, they get angry and upset, even though you're not trying to be unfair, but you've made a call that affects them. So therefore they get angry because they haven't been able to reach their goal. They perceive a barrier to their goal.
Speaker 2:Interesting and you know this is the thing too is that, you see, when I think about and I absolutely agree with what you just said about the importance of explaining things and taking time to talk through things with the coach.
Speaker 2:I've got questions for you at some point too, Taking time to explain to the coach why the decision was, or whoever. I think that can make a really big difference. Now, it's an awfully hard thing to do when you're a referee, but it can make a big difference for players and keep things a little lower level.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. We do talk about again. You can't do it on every single call, right, like stop every five seconds. And if someone's complaining about every single call or question call, well, that's a problem. It becomes what we call persistent dissent.
Speaker 1:There are some calls in the game that are a really big deal. Maybe it negates a goal, or maybe it's worthy of a card, or it was close and it was almost the beginning of a counter-attack, but you call a foul because you feel the defender was fouled, whatever it might be. That is a good time to take a moment and, you know, have the captain on the team explain what the call was to them and the player involved and to say it loud enough. So the coach and the spectators here I think is really good, especially at lower levels of youth, where you might have spectators here I think is really good, especially at lower levels of youth, where you might have spectators and players and even some coaches who don't know the laws of the game really well. Explain your decision-making process briefly so that everyone is on the same page and they're like oh, okay, that's why when there's an absence of information, they go to. Well, that referee's being unfair or they're picking on my kid because they don't like him or something like that, or they're actively trying to make a decision against my team, because you talked about perceived injustice. It's a perceived injustice and that's why it's so important.
Speaker 1:There was one other thing you said. This one really hit me like a ton of bricks. You talked about that anger is more likely with certain physiological situations. You talked about heart rate being elevated. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Because we see that as it gets late in the game, all of a sudden things can explode out of nowhere, and I've never thought about the connection between the physiological. We're 80 minutes into a match and now it's popping off. I never got the physical, mental connection. Can you talk about that briefly?
Speaker 2:This is a phenomenon in psychology called excitation transfer. It's when you transfer physiological arousal from one thing to another. Here's the best example. Have you ever seen speed? Certainly. At the end she says you should never start relationships in stressful circumstances. That's an example of what we're talking about. You're probably familiar with the manipulative dating tactic of like hey, on your first date, take him to an amusement park, take him on a motorcycle ride, something like that, so that they misattribute the arousal from the rides or the motorcycle act to feelings of attraction. This has been established. This actually works and can work in a lot of circumstances. What we're seeing is the elevated heart rate. All of those things that come with exercise also mimic emotional arousal. Right when your heart rate is elevated. That could be because of a sport, or it could be because of the bad call that was just made. People tend to misattribute those feelings as anger or fear or something else.
Speaker 1:That's fascinating. By the way, I think this is the first time we ever had dating advice on the Ref Sees.
Speaker 2:All right, well, good, glad to be here on the refs.
Speaker 1:All right, glad to be here for you, cool. One other thing I wanted to ask you about, and this it's a thing how does group behavior amplify anger? Right, and, and you and you see it often like fans, and this really upsets me. When I go to games, it seems you can't go to a professional sporting event now without some referee being like booed by the entire stadium, the chant of ref, you suck, you know all that thing and it becomes a mob mentality. Even mild-mannered people all of a sudden get really angry with the referee. And you see, at a sporting event like youth sporting like 100 parents on the sideline or something like that, or in an arena, 50 000 in the sideline, gets even worse and more uniform. Can you talk about the group behavior part of anger?
Speaker 2:There's a couple of different things we're seeing here psychologically. One of them is we know emotions are contagious. We pick up on the emotional cues from the people around us. If everybody at that soccer game got sad instead of angry, we would probably get sad too. We pick up on those cues. You can think of that as having evolutionary value.
Speaker 2:Human beings exist in groups, and it is beneficial to know how the rest of my group is feeling and to feel similarly. If the people around me are scared, maybe that means there's something I should be scared of too. If the people around me are scared, maybe that means there's something I should be scared of too. If people around me are angry, then there's something I should be angry about too. So the other piece is right. So if one of your other parents on the team or one other fan, especially someone that you know or is similar to you, is yelling, they're modeling that behavior for you so that you might follow up with something similar. And then the third thing is that there's a level of anonymity that plays itself out. If more people are there, the less known you are, and it feels easier to get away with things. That anonymity brings out some additional anger. So I think again it's sort of this recipe for this kind of response.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that goes into another topic. I was going to ask you about the social media aspect. It seems these days that people are looking for opportunities for referees to make a mistake at all levels whether it's a youth, match, high school, but certainly professional and then post this thing online from some angle, you know, at 60 frames, a second review that no one has very misleading and it seems to be like the greatest thing for everyone to jump on and be like that's the worst thing ever. That guy's a joke. He should be fired, hold them accountable. But also carries into social media. There's a group think there as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And you get reinforced oftentimes for those things, especially the more controversial they are. And so being able to promote things that way or support things that way, you're right it just elevates it and elevates it. And then the other side of that too is you go into enough games, either as a fan coach or as a player. You start to know the refs and you go into games and you have a sense for, okay, well, how does this person ref there's a little bit of you end up being primed at the beginning of the game like, oh, not this guy or whatever, and so all of that starts to play itself out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so funny. You say that I've made friends with a few professional referees and I'm always get blown away when someone will make a comment about such and such referee. Oh, he's the worst. He's so biased and their injustice is probably from a call made like five years ago. That was probably technically correct, but maybe they don't understand the laws of the game or their personal bias for their team that drives people nuts. So let's talk a little bit about, on the referee side, how to stay calm and focused, emotionally grounded, when anger is being hurled at them. What kind of advice would you give to refs trying to stay calm when they're being screamed at? Are there any mental strategies they can use in the moment? What approaches should they take?
Speaker 2:I would start by saying that all of these things require practice and none of them are things that you're just going to be able to do tomorrow. But they all come down to what I sometimes refer to as finding your pause button Right, which means that if you can teach yourself to take five seconds before responding, even two seconds before responding, if you can find that pause button, it's going to go a long way to helping. I'm certain you've seen this. I talk to the players about this too. Sometimes I've seen this kid gets fouled. You're blowing the whistle, but you know there's a half second or a second between when the foul happens and when the whistle is blown and the kid immediately reacts with how could you not call that? And it's like it'd be great if that kid could find that pause button and just recognize that reaction is a little bit too quick. And so how do you find that pause button? I think it starts with motivation you have to want to right.
Speaker 2:As a referee, part of your goal is to stay calm in those situations, going into the game, thinking that way, taking moments. Everything we said about excitation transfer is relevant to the ref too. They're out there on the field running around. There's a lot of excitement there too, and giving having them be able to take moments throughout the game and just take a deep breath to try and lower whatever that physiological arousal can be helpful.
Speaker 2:If you're anything like me, after an emotional incident whether you've been the recipient of someone's anger or whatever you probably reflect back on it quite a bit. I think an important part of that is to think about your role in it and anything you wish you would have done differently along the way. Since we're talking about sports, I liken this to reviewing game tape. This is a way of sort of reviewing your own personal game tape, and a lot of times when that happens, we focus on the other person but just take some time to focus on ourselves. I think can be a piece of that. The other thing I'll say is that even if you blow up immediately and respond too quickly, you can still find that pause after the fact. You can still take that break, have a new conversation with the coach or player and find that moment to pause.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you said a number of really powerful things there. I think one of the challenges and this is just something I expressed to you and anyone listening who's not a referee it's funny, the higher and higher of a referee you become and the more experience you have, sometimes the slower your whistle becomes because you're waiting to see is an advantage playing out? Can they play through the challenge? Do I need to stop and award a card? Can I keep the game flowing? And that causes problems If you don't communicate.
Speaker 1:After the first time or two you say hey guys, I'm being a little patient to see if there's an advantage playing out, want to see if you can play through it. That's helpful because it explains to everyone around what's going on. Additionally, if you see like a little bit of some tugging going on and you're using your voice saying I see it like like that, you verbalize that you're seeing a foul happening and you're also giving the person who's making the foul stop doing it to keep the game flowing. It's a communication thing. The other thing again that you said again, this is so important, okay, taking a pause, a breath, not only for you to get some oxygen to your brain, but for the player to get some oxygen to the brain and then then you know, get out of that lizard, reptilian, you know, brain, you know and back into that human you know, homo sapien brain, when they can start having conversation. We talk about this a lot.
Speaker 1:If you're going to have a conversation with a player and they're still in that crazy red mist, forget it. They're not listening to you. Take a second, take a little walk with them, let them breathe, and then you can have a normal conversation again. It's an opportunity for them to collect themselves, but also for you, the referee. You've just been sprinting to catch up with play. Give yourself a moment for your heartbeat to regulate before you start engaging in conversation, because if you just go toe to toe in the heat of the moment, it's not going to end well.
Speaker 2:I think the other thing that I see a lot of refs do that I appreciate is taking time before the game starts to do a little more at that check in than just check the cleats and the shin pads, but actually talk to the players about how you intend to ref the game. Ultimately, it's relationship building, right? It's a moment of saying like, hey, here's my role today, this is how I tend to referee, this is what you can do for me, right? Know that I like to play out the advantage or whatever. Like trying to give them. That feedback can be really helpful and it sets up part of what's happening here.
Speaker 2:Relationship wise, as you know, is you really do have a. There's a power differential right. You have three people on the pitch, or four in some games that have a lot of power. In this circumstance, I think there's different ways of using that power. The more authoritarian it becomes, the more sort of I'm just going to blow my whistle and card you or do whatever, and I'm never going to explain it and I'm never going to talk to you about it the more I think resentful and frustrated players are going to get. But if it can be a little more authoritative, if it's a little bit more communication, a little bit more explaining, a little bit more building relationships with people and helping them see this, especially with kids, then I think there's going to be less anger on the field.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I completely agree with that. It's a big thing. All right, this is a really important question here. How do we avoid taking things personally, even when the anger feels personal someone's yelling in our direction? How do you avoid taking it personally?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have some friends who have teenage kids who are referees, and it's really sad to see how some of those kids have ended up either leaving or reffing less often because it's too hard. Right, I have a friend who goes with their son who is in high school to all the games and just sort of watches for the first 30 minutes or 20 minutes or so to decide how, is this going to be the kind of game that I need to stay for, or is this one where I can kind of let it go? It's hard because in some ways it is personal. Presumably one of the reasons you're roughing is not just the money because you care about it, right, it's something you like doing and something that you know.
Speaker 2:I can tell from your content that this is something you're really passionate about, and so a person who's saying to you you're not doing a good job Well, that is personal, right.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's deeply personal. It'd be the equivalent of someone coming to me and saying, hey, I hate your books. Personal. It'd be the equivalent of someone coming to me and saying, hey, I hate your books. It's hard not to take that personal when you think about how much time and energy and love and passion I put into that thing. So maybe a way of thinking about it is to acknowledge the broader context and to sort of acknowledge that, okay, this is a comment I'm getting, or a person in the heat of the moment who is responding this way that it doesn't undo the other things I've done the positive outcomes of the people who told me they liked my book. Or the people who told me, hey, you're a great ref and you're doing all this good. You know, it doesn't undo those things to get those comments. And if we can think about it in light of that, I think it's less about trying to make it not personal and recognizing hey, this is a single comment from a person who might not know very much and it might ultimately be wrong.
Speaker 2:Now I had an interesting one about a month ago where one of my players got hacked pretty badly. He was pretty upset about it. The ref came over and told the other player who did it hey, no more of that. And then it happened less than 30 seconds later and the ref called the foul but didn't do any more with the same player. To me this actually felt pretty yellow carnival. In that circumstance I said something to the ref. I didn't shout angrily, but I just said I think that's a yellow sir. And no response. Nothing happened. But at the end of the game two things happened.
Speaker 2:I have some advice for players and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this from the ref side. The player came up to me after the handshake and said hey, I'm really sorry, I thought this was a really classy move. The other thing is that the ref came up to me afterwards and said I think you were right. Don't mind you shouting that to me all again. It actually opened up a question that I had for you. You would acknowledge that referees make mistakes every now and then probably not as often as people think, but every now and then. What would you want for coaches or players to do? What's the best way to communicate that to you? If they are genuinely concerned about something, not just something that's happened, but something that could keep happening, is there a way that you want people to communicate to you?
Speaker 1:That's a great question. So the first thing is an acknowledgement yes, every referee makes mistakes. It doesn't matter if they're a professional and they've ref 10,000 matches. A mistake is going to be made Again. Your view on the sideline as a coach is going to be completely different from that referee in the middle of the field. You're going to see something different, no doubt. Also, you know, just as you said right, you're not running up and down the pitch four or five miles in a match. Your heart rate is low, you're calm, you can think objectively. It's like man after five miles of running and my heart beats out like 150, maybe I'm not in the best decision-making state.
Speaker 1:All that to be said, I think for referees and this is really challenging for those lower age groups 8, 10, 12, lower age groups eight, 10, 12, you're not necessarily dealing with referees who have refereed thousands of matches with tons of experience and sometimes and I'm sure that referee okay, maybe they haven't given out a lot of yellow cards before and that's common at those lower levels. I know I chickened out on my first couple of yellow cards. I should have given my first couple of red cards, but it's an experience. You learn from it. You're like next time that happens, I am going to show a yellow card. Sometimes in the match you're like should I not? You just let it go. There are times you make mistakes and there are times after the match. I think almost every time that I'm doing a very high level match, like the highest adult amateur. There's probably a time I probably a time like man that should have been a yellow card. I don't know why I didn't card him for that challenge. It happens, without a doubt. So from the referees side, and I encourage everyone again, be humble from the for a coach, though my advice for coaches would be, again, try and avoid inflaming tensions, right. So again and this is part of your book like someone's yelling at me, we're not having a conversation and I'm not going to listen to that.
Speaker 1:If someone says, you know to me respectful and it's a stoppage of play, right, like not while the play is going on, but someone says, hey, ref, earlier you had mentioned this. Has that situation just occurred? Like referee, you just said, if he does it again, it would be potentially a yellow card. What do you think? I think it's like if it's calm and it's in the form of a question, and you're like help me understand. I think most people would be like, hey, good point. Or here's my perspective on that.
Speaker 1:I didn't see a lot in there for it to be a yellow card or it's a different type of challenge, but we're giving the referee an opportunity to have an out to have a. Hey, I saw something different. Or I didn't feel at the right time. When we put someone's back against the wall, that's a yellow card. It almost puts them in a situation where if I listen to that coach now, then everyone else around the field is going to feel that if I yell something at the ref, he's going to do it, and so you. Almost. It's like. It's like jujitsu. If I tell the referee it's a yellow card, he's not going to give a yellow card. If you engage in a conversation, it's like hey, ref, help me understand. Just a minute ago you said this. I think this is just to happen. You might be in a better situation, you don't lose the relationship with the referee.
Speaker 1:You give them an opportunity to think. I think it's a much more positive way to engage a referee.
Speaker 2:It's interesting. My son's other favorite sport and my other favorite sport is basketball. One of the interesting things about basketball is how many more stoppages of play they have for these sorts of interactions. That is one of the challenges that soccer brings with it.
Speaker 2:I was at a game recently where there was a player for the other team who, behind the scenes, was taking swipes at. People wanted to alert the ref to it but didn't want to do it in a way that was waited until halftime. What do you do if you're already in the second half? What do you do if it's early? It'd be nice if we had just opportunities to communicate I bet we more often.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the thing I mean at the professional level. You've got a fourth official who's got comms right. He's got communication devices and everyone's connected. In US soccer, specifically given guidance to pretty much outlaw communication devices on the pitch, so it makes it hard to have that communication. If it's going on and we do have a ball out of bounds, be like hey, ref, can I just chat with you one second before you start up, or it's close. They don't have to run all the way across the field and just like hey, can you look out for this? Or making the assistant referee hey man, here's what's going on. Can you please take a look out for that? That's the best advice I have. But you're so right, it's a free-flowing game. It's one of the things we love about it, but it can be hard to communicate during the match.
Speaker 1:I am very empathetic, yeah, yeah. So one question I do want to ask you about this is more for the referee. How should we, as referees, recover emotionally after a tough match? I get these messages all the time where people feel dejected and frustrated. It's like I I don't think I ever want to ref again, and then they might be angry too, like they feel it was unjustified. What should we do with our own anger that we might feel towards a coach, player or spectator? What do we do on our side?
Speaker 2:I can think of a couple of things that I would suggest For me. When I've had any kind of emotional anything, including dealing with a tough soccer game, I tend to ruminate, I tend to think and think about the thing that happened and kind of run through, and so I imagine this is something that the referees do a lot. They replay incidents in their mind. Did I make the right decision? Should I have said this? What if I'd said this? You know, and things like that, which is, I think, totally natural and normal.
Speaker 2:This is a place where I think one of the reasons we do this is because we didn't get sufficient closure, and that you want more. A couple of things to think about in terms of that, I guess Is there any way you can get some closure there? Is there any way in which you can better communicate what happened, especially if you have a particularly rough game? Can you try and communicate, maybe talk to your ARs rough game Can you try and communicate? Maybe talk to your ARs? If that's not possible or advisable, I like to start thinking about okay, I like to problem solve a little bit and think, okay, so how?
Speaker 2:do I prevent this from happening in the future. What are some things that I could have done differently this game? Maybe even before the match started, you know the conversations I'd had with the players or the coaches. What are some things I could have done to set the tone a little bit differently? Can I try those things next time? That's a way of starting to tweak that. The other piece is probably some self-care and self-compassion, right, and so being able to give yourself some grace and say I'm not going to get every call right, I'm going to do my absolute best, Even when I get all the calls and even when I say all the right things might still go awry. Just letting yourself do whatever you need in those moments to regroup, whether it's going for a nice walk in nature, maybe it's listening to music, some sort of meditation, whatever works.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's huge. I recently listened to the Mel Robbins audiobook. She has the let them theory and it just for me. It was just really helpful to get acknowledged the fact that I can't control how other people act. I can't control if someone else is not going to be able to manage their emotions well. I can't control the fact that someone's going to be upset at a call that I make. I can't control the fact that they might voice that displeasure publicly. There's a lot of things that I can't control. Now it doesn't mean that I can't do anything about it. I can let them have an emotional outburst. We've talked about the science of anger. That is something that happens when people get emotional and you stop them from reaching their goal and they feel that there's an injustice. Let them have an emotional outburst. Now, if it crosses into dissent or abusive, insulting language, I can. I can take action that I can show a card. I can. If I don't need to show a card, I can have a conversation. I can explain myself. I can. If I don't need to show a card, I can have a conversation. I can explain myself. I can.
Speaker 1:You know, stop the game and ask the coaches to deal with the parents who are becoming disruptive. I can abandon the match and write a report because it's gotten out of control and it's an unsafe environment now, but I think that is. It is so important. I think, referees, in a game, there are going to be hundreds of decisions that we make, hundreds literally. Is it a foul? Is it not a foul? Who's throwing it? Is it a goal kick? Is it a corner kick? Is it a card? Is it not a card? There might be one situation in a match that someone gets really upset about, but that is the thing that referees dwell on and it eats them inside. I can tell you, I know, like I look back through my time, I've ref thousands of matches and still I can remember the times where I messed up. What is that about the brain, where if you have something traumatic or bad, it sticks with you but you forget all of the?
Speaker 2:good. The same way I said that anger is good for us, that phenomenon that you're describing right now is similarly good for us. Because the phenomenon that you're describing right now is similarly good for us, because the only reason why that's happening to you is because you care about being great at something. The fact that you're feeling upset that you might have made a mistake, however long ago, is because you're trying to be great at something and it gnaws at you that you weren't. It's because you're trying to be great at something and it gnaws at you that you weren't.
Speaker 2:I still I mean, you know, taking it away from soccer for a moment in my work life, I find myself feeling bad every time I had a meeting that didn't go the way I wanted it to, every time a faculty member was mad at me because of a decision I made. I pay attention to that and it's because I want to be great at the job I'm doing. That's a good thing. It doesn't feel good and that's actually the motivator there, right? The sadness, frustration or hurt is what motivates us to try and do better in the future. That's a good thing, even when it doesn't feel good.
Speaker 1:So if a ref came to you saying I love this game, but I can't handle the abuse anymore. I can't what would you tell them? What advice would you give them?
Speaker 2:I guess I'd have two things to say, and one of them is kind of sad. The first thing I would say is have you done everything in your ability to mitigate that anger? Have you really made that a focus and done all the different things you can do? If the answer to that is yes, I would say maybe this just isn't the job for you, maybe you're taking it too personally, maybe you just can't let it go. If you can't find a way to separate and this is the part that's sad then maybe this just isn't a good fit.
Speaker 2:I would hope they had done everything they can do before they make that decision, because obviously they love it and want to be great at it. But if they really can't and I'm not saying that everybody has to learn to deal with abuse to get there I do think there are things we can do to mitigate that and to control the game and put a pause on that. I would rather parents had to sit in their car all season before they, before a ref, leave the game because of abuse. But you know, if someone's just if what's happening is just part of the job and someone can't handle it, then I think they have to consider whether or not this is the right job for them.
Speaker 1:That's so interesting and it is a sad answer. I just want to clarify that there's a difference between emotional outbursts and abuse. Right, Emotional outbursts are part of the game. We know that people are going to be upset about a call and they're going to like, oh man, really, how is that offside? Those things are going to happen, especially as you get towards the latter half of the game, the tensions building. So that's normal and there are some people who are so empathetic they feel personally attacked.
Speaker 1:Even when there might be an emotional outburst, there's just the emotions around the game. They can't handle that pressure Truly. Maybe it's not for them. That's a real thing. That's honesty, right? Maybe being a referee is not for everyone. On the flip side, if it is abuse, abusive language, that's something else and I encourage all referees, you don't have to deal with that. There are actions we can take to address that. It's not okay. The person hurling that abuse to the offensive language must be dealt with, either sent off during the game or a supplemental report is filed so that they can be corrected and not think is permitted. I think that is an important thing to say, but we do have to acknowledge that people are going to be upset at the officials in sporting events. That's a thing.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I agree, and I wish I could talk to parents the way we're talking to referees right now, because I don't. I would say something very similar to them of it makes sense that you're going to get emotional over this. It makes sense that you're, you know, and I shouldn't just say parents fans in general, but it makes sense that you are going to get, and not I shouldn't just say parents fans in general, but it makes sense that you are going to get emotional over this. One thing I wish refs wouldn't do.
Speaker 2:I think refs sometimes, in an effort to deescalate, try to remind parents and players that it's only a game, and this happened to us this season. A ref went over and spoke to the parents, but one of the things he said scold them, and he was right to scold them. He was right to get them to stop. My mom told me about it. What he said was look, none of these players are going to go division one. This doesn't matter. Everybody calm down. And that only escalates things. I think try to go over there and just tell them what you need them to do. Don't put any judgment on it or anything. Just say I'm not going to tolerate this. If you keep going. X happens, move on Now, I think, when they try to.
Speaker 2:I think the thing is that parents, they do care and part of the reason they care is because they know how much their kids care, and I think about the drives home after games when my son was devastated about a loss. Part of the reason why parents care as much as they do they're going to get upset. It's from them. The question is just how are we channeling this? How are we handling that? Why are we yelling at the kid in the middle of the field who is trying to figure this out Oftentimes a kid? Why are we handling it the way we are? I think parents just kind of lose sight of that sometimes and we've got to help them remember.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a couple of things I always say is that it's the most important, unimportant thing in life, right?
Speaker 1:Like it is. And then the other thing I would tell people and we're going to do more. We did dating advice at the beginning of the pod. We're going to do relationship advice at the end of the pod. Never tell your wife to calm down, calm down. Nobody wants to be told that what they care about isn't important. You want to take things up a notch and pour fuel on the fire. Tell someone that what they're upset about doesn't matter. Oh my gosh, that's exactly it.
Speaker 2:And a great example I went to one of my son's track meets this year and they actually had a sign as he walked in that essentially said just that hey, this is fundamentally unimportant. Those are the words that you don't take it too seriously. To him, it's one of the biggest days of his life. He's on his way to the city track meet. This is a huge thing, right. So to start things out by saying it's unimportant, it's just not going to work, like there's a different and better message to deliver than that. The spouse example is exactly right. We know that it doesn't work to tell people to calm down or relax or any of those things.
Speaker 1:A thousand percent man. Yeah, I feel like we could talk about. I'm literally crying tears here just because I've had to learn that lesson the hard way. My wife and I have been married, thankfully happily, for over 20 years now. But let me tell you, about five years in I finally learned that don't ever say that to your spouse, parents, players or coach. Calm down, no, no, no. These days we try and tell referees don't talk to parents at all, because they don't want to hear what you're saying. You go talk to the coach. Coach, whether it's the coach or it's the parents, hey, they're engaged in public, persistent dissent. They can't comment about the officiating. They can cheer their kids on. That's what you can do at a youth sporting event. Please remind them, otherwise we'll have to. Just that, you'll be dismissing him from the pitch. So that's how we we manage that. But yeah, you're so right. Going and scolding someone like they're in school doesn't work. People Don't do it, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:I don't think as a coach that's ever happened to me. I don't think I've ever had a ref come tell me to go talk to parents. I would. I've never been told to by the ref.
Speaker 1:It's relatively newer guidance, but we never get training on how to deal with match control situations. You get laws of the game and even those quizzes are awful, but no one tells you how to manage a match, which is the most important thing that you have to learn as a referee, but you never get any training with it. So I try, through my podcast and videos, to help refs learn those things. But yes, that's how we need to do it, ryan. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. Any other questions for the referee before we wrap?
Speaker 2:I'm just going to say one last thing and that is that one of the people I regularly coach with is also a ref and he refs at the high school level One of the important things I would say for coaches and for families, because he offers me a lot of needed perspective in some of those where he'll let me know. Like, oh, I think you probably saw this, he'll sometimes go out and talk to the refs at halftime to better understand stuff. I think that's a good practice that you know. For me it's just I sort of lucked into it. But for coaches out there, having that other perspective of someone can be really helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so. I would encourage if there are coaches listening to this and even referees like having a calm, respectful conversation at a halftime or post game to help a coach understand a situation is good, because they're going to have to explain it to their players who are going to ask questions, or the parents are going to ask questions. In a vacuum of information, people make up things. So be approachable, you know, be humble, be willing to listen and again, I'm not saying stand there and take abuse and have someone like say things to you that are nasty, but if you're like, hey, happy to answer a question that you have, you know, and answer that question, it really goes a long way, not only teaching the coach and the players and the parents because that's who's going to hear the information, but it's going to help you build rapport as a referee. If you appear to be approachable, humble and willing to have dialogue, it's a really good thing.
Speaker 2:I love that advice. The approachability advice goes back to that when we talk about authoritarianism. You know, I think some refs especially ones who are maybe still developing their confidence, I think their approach to being insecure is to build a sort of barrier between them and others. If you can create a dynamic where you are approachable, where they can come to you for ideas or come to you and communicate things to you, I think it's going to go a long way.
Speaker 1:That's a fact, man. Please take a moment. Tell everyone where they can learn more about your work, where they can get your book, if they want to delve deeper into this topic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so thank you very much. So I'm an anger professor on all social media channels, so TikTok, instagram are probably my biggies, but also anywhere else and people might find me LinkedIn, facebook. You mentioned my books. I've got a book, why we Get Mad. I've got another book called how to Deal with Angry People, which people might really appreciate, and then I've also got a book on the way. It comes out in January called Emotion Hacks 50 Ways to Feel Better Fast. So all those you can buy wherever you buy books.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh man. I'm a very emotional person so I'm getting a little emotional here, but it's just so important. Whether we're on the soccer pitch, we're dealing with interpersonal relationships at home, our friends, our family, learning how to deal with difficult people, angry people, like you said, how not to take it personally, how to recover quickly. It's good for our health, but we're going to be much more successful in our relationships, love, business, everything. I think it's wonderful. Man Ryan, thank you so much for joining us on today's podcast.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me. I really enjoyed talking to you. I learned a lot.
Speaker 1:Me too. Everyone, I hope you enjoyed today's pod. No-transcript. Everything gets poured back into making this channel possible and, as always, I hope your next match is red card free. We'll see you next time you.