REFS NEED LOVE TOO
An honest perspective from the 3rd team on the pitch... the referees. Through humor, analysis and education, we are slowly changing how people view referees and officials in all sports. We care and have a love for the game as much as any player or coach. Sometimes even more. Youth soccer (proper football) is a multi-billion $ industry in the US. Tremendous money is spent on players, competitions, travel etc., but almost nothing spent on developing the next generation of referees. I hope that this Podcast inspires, educates and humanizes the next generation of referees for their own development and appreciation from the players, coaches and spectators they need to work alongside.
REFS NEED LOVE TOO
From Georgia to the World Cup: Referee Matthew Conger Shares Lessons Learned on the Biggest Stage
What does it take to officiate at the highest level of world soccer? Matthew Conger, who refereed at both the 2018 and 2022 FIFA World Cups, pulls back the curtain on the journey from grassroots to elite officiating in this fascinating conversation.
Growing up as a goalkeeper in Georgia before eventually representing New Zealand on the international stage, Conger's unique path provides rare insights into what truly separates good referees from great ones. "Positioning and movement is the bedrock of good decision-making," he explains, revealing how sometimes just two or three meters makes the difference between seeing a play clearly or missing crucial details.
The psychological aspects of elite officiating take center stage as Conger shares his philosophy that "pressure is a privilege" – a mindset shift that helped him perform on soccer's biggest stages. He details the deliberate team culture he built with his officiating crews, including creating meaningful team logos and focusing on emotional regulation to ensure clear decision-making under pressure.
Perhaps most surprisingly, Conger demystifies World Cup referees by noting they were "just like me" – dedicated, hardworking individuals with a passion for the game rather than superhuman figures. This humanizing perspective extends to his approach to mistakes, emphasizing the importance of owning errors, analyzing their causes, and using them as growth opportunities rather than dwelling in "that toxic soup of imposter syndrome."
Now through his company Total Referee, Conger is dedicated to developing officials at all levels using an integrated approach that recognizes referees as "their own athletic population" with unique developmental needs. His vision of refereeing as a creative endeavor that enables "the beautiful game to be played beautifully" reminds us why officials truly are essential stakeholders in soccer.
Whether you're an aspiring referee, a current official looking to improve, or simply curious about what happens behind the whistle, this conversation offers invaluable wisdom from someone who's been at the very pinnacle of the profession.
Hello and welcome to the Refs Need Love To podcast. I'm David Gerson, your host, and this is a show that gives you a real, raw and behind the scenes view of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch the referee. I've been reffing now for over 11 years and over 1300 matches under my belt, and you can find me at refsneedlovetoocom, on Insta, on TikTok and now on YouTube. Today, guys, we have a very special guest, Matthew Conger, former FIPA World Cup ref. You may know that he refereed at the World Cup twice, but he's also the director and lead facilitator of a holistic leadership development consultancy and he's also the co-founder of Total Referee Limited. He refereed extensively across various professional leagues, including the A-League, chinese Super League, saudi Pro League, usl, mls, the New Zealand National League, my gosh all sorts of competitions, and he is passionate about developing the holistic capability of refereeing from grassroots to the elite level.
Speaker 1:Interesting note about Matthew he grew up in the US. He started playing football at seven years old as a goalkeeper, of course and rose through the Olympic development level too. At the age of 15, he started refereeing with USSF in Georgia that's right, georgia soccer and followed a pathway to the highest levels of the game, including 10 FIFA tournaments. That's right FIFA World Cup Russia 2018, fifa Arapac 2021, fifa World Cup in Qatar 2022. Unbelievable In 2022, he refereed the third round match between Tunisia and France at the World Cup finals in Qatar. He refereed throughout 2023 and 2024, and he refereed across the Saudi Pro League and OFC Champions League. New Zealand Football National League. December 2024 marked the end of his 11-year professional and international referee career. He fully believes in the vital role that referees play in sport and society. Refereeing can not only enable quality sporting experiences, but also equip those in the role with a wide range of capabilities that can be applied outside the field of play if proper integrated development is provided. He's committed to facilitating the growth of referees from the local level to the world stage.
Speaker 1:So please join me in welcoming FIFA referee Matthew Conger to the Refs. Need Love To podcast. Welcome, sir. Thank you very much, david. Yeah, no, so, excited, so, excited. So, matthew, you've got to explain. So again, you came up. You know, born in Plano, texas, okay, was here in Georgia, but you got to the World Cup and referee at the highest levels, by the way of New Zealand, new Zealand. Can you help explain? Texas, georgia, new Zealand. How did that happen? What occurred there?
Speaker 2:Well, texas was. My dad was in the record industry at the time and working on the West Coast, and so Dallas was not quite living in California. So we were there and spent a couple of years there and then moved back to Georgia and largely grew up here in Athens, georgia, proudly home of all things. Athens, which is what I always make sure to spread it's like. Oh, athens, georgia, home of B-52s, rem and, of course, the University of Georgia. I grew up playing here and then life kind of took me abroad. I wanted to travel, went overseas, met my wife, who's from New Zealand, and followed her back that way. That's where we raised our four kids and pursued the pathway around refereeing from that end.
Speaker 1:We'll just ask kind of an oddball question here. I can't let this go. You were a goalkeeper. I firmly believe. Every time I see a goalkeeper I'm like goalkeepers make great referees. What do you think it is about a goalkeeper that just makes them a good candidate, potentially to be a good referee?
Speaker 2:I think part of it is willing to be under pressure, right? So there's this sort of just this crazy little gene in the goalkeeper's brain that says, hey, I can be the one, the last one, that can be responsible for the outcome of the game, and also, I think, from a tactical point of view, you know, it's your ability to see the field. A good goalkeeper talks to their players and can see things. You know, not always watching the ball, looks off the ball, you know around directing players, which is what a good referee does as well, right? So I think it's a combination of those two things, yeah.
Speaker 1:So let's talk a little bit about kind of you know, elite refereeing. So you've been to the top of the mountain. You've World Cup Olympics, I mean you've, you know, in professional leagues around the world. What surprised you the most about officiating, or your fellow referees at that level, at that elite level?
Speaker 2:You know, probably the biggest thing that stood out was that they were just like me. You know, because, being from New Zealand especially, you know, you see European referees, you see, you see people, you know people that refereed on the English Premier League or, you know, on the in South America and Comma Bowl, or even here on the MLS or whatever. We can kind of get this idea that, wow, they're sort of superhuman or this amazing. Of course, having the experience, having the exposure to that level of the game, your skills get better. But at the same time they were just like me and, you know, for the most part friendly and approachable. There are a few egos that are some of the oxygen kind of it's harder to breathe around in the same room, but as it is with all sport, and some people would say that about me, they're like, oh, it's scogger when he's around but I'm trying to do too much. But yeah, I think it's. It's that exposure to the highest level of the game sometimes that brings out the best quality. Yeah, that's outstanding.
Speaker 1:I will say that every professional ref that I have been exposed to and now, mind you, I'm not spending days upon days traveling with someone or something nature, but everyone is a consummate professional, like unbelievably professional, you know, friendly, sincere and outrageously hardworking. I mean, I think that's one of the things I think about the professionals that I've met, and just knowledge of their life, the commitment to fitness, to getting better, to being self-aware and taking feedback and constantly molding themselves into the best person that they can be. Out there is something that I see as a consistent theme. There's no slackers at that level.
Speaker 2:Let me tell tell you no one's getting there by luck. Yeah, and really it's a case of you know, especially if you're showing with up with those same qualities and those same characteristics, everybody's willing to get in and give advice or just support, or again, just sitting, you know, on the quiet side, you know tucked away, have a beer, a cold beer, and kind of commiserate a little bit sometimes as well, but also that their passion for the game and their love for the game and that desire to really give everything to it is, yeah, it's across the board.
Speaker 1:So let's talk a little bit about mindset, Cause I definitely feel that if there's one area that completely differentiates, you know, maybe a good or great referee from elite referee, For me it feels like again, presence mindset. I actually just did a fun video about Tori Penso last night. It just does such a chameleon on the pitch. She can give you a death stare one minute and lay down the law and then the next minute she's like your confidant and your friend on the pitch and a counselor helping you understand what's going on. So let's talk a little about mindset. What kind of mindset do you think separates good from great and how do you coach that in referees? As you do this development, try and build new referees for tomorrow.
Speaker 2:I think definitely having a growth mindset and having that flexibility to say I'm not set in my ways and stuck on, this is exactly how it needs to be done is, generally speaking, the pathway to the highest levels or even just sustainability over a long career, even at whatever level anyone's refereeing at. Because, again, we need to really make sure that we have people that are thriving in refereeing under 14 and keeping the game growing alive at that level. But they talk about Tori and, yeah, absolutely. She's got an amazing personality on the field of play and you can see that off the field of play as well. She's lovely.
Speaker 2:Each person, each referee that I've ever worked with, they all bring a different side of their personality and a different side of themselves to the game. Some are much more serious, some are very kind of light around it, some are very much focused on the tactics and understanding how the game is going to work. Some are much more fluid and adaptable to it. Overall, it's that flexibility of willing to look at it, because when you're in a room full of 40 plus referees and you've got a clip up on the screen, they're going OK. This is a foul, not a foul.
Speaker 2:There's so much of the game. That is actually subjective. Right, there are things there. Their decision it's a foul, it's not a foul. But then there is so much that is gray. And if you're too stuck, and especially when there are directives to say actually this is the trend we want you to follow, if I'm too locked in my ways, going no, it has to be this, you see it on the field, then it comes unstuck. And so having that growth mindset, having that adaptability, that ability to shift under different kinds of pressure, is really the key to longevity there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that's great advice just for being a referee. It's a great advice for life, whether you have a marriage or you work in a professional life. Definitely the person who thinks of the smartest person in the room is usually the dumbest. They're going nowhere fast and no one wants to work for them.
Speaker 2:You know you can be confidently wrong. We try to avoid that right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, but that growth mindset is huge. So one thing you know on the flip side so this is definitely something I get this question, you know, as we get in season. I promise you I'll get it every single week. I'll get a referee who's maybe I mean it could be at any level, honestly any age, but it usually comes to me from someone who's like 17, 18 years old, who's finally they've refereed for years and they're finally getting their first ECNL or MLS next, or USL2 assigned or something like that, and they're like what do I do, how do I prepare? Like it's a much bigger game, never done this level. So so, at the elite level, how do you deal with or how do you handle fear of failure or making pressure? Is there any mental preparation that you do, any techniques, any rituals, any you know? Again, talk about mindset. What do you, what do you do to handle that fear of failure as you move up to a larger and larger level?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question, and part of that comes down to that concept around the 10,000 hours. So, you know, for you know, I refereed golly, I was 34 when I got my FIFA badge, so I had been refereeing for nearly 20 years before I was first made the list and there were plenty of matches in there where I did really well, obviously to progress as far as it did, but there are plenty of matches that I didn't nail everything, had to learn from and had to build up that resilience and for a long time that was kind of, I guess, just absorbed as part of the culture. We just have to adapt. From about 2016 onward, I became really intentional about building that and focusing on understanding the mindset side of things. So part of my story is around. Actually, I made a terrible decision at the Olympics in 2016 that really pushed me onto the path of hey, I've got to understand more around deliberate development of team culture, how I work with my refereeing team, how I get the best out of them and also how I kind of grow and harness my own mindset in that, and that's still an ongoing journey. That's something that I've been committed to since then in a very deliberate way. Part of it is time and the number of matches that it takes to get to that level, and part of it is, yeah, in terms of ritual.
Speaker 2:We became very deliberate about what we did within our team. We created a very deliberate team culture with our with each world cup campaign, we had two slightly different trios one ref, one assistant referee that was the same and he was from Tonga Makisini. And then I had one Kiwi assistant referee, although he was of English persuasion originally, and then, in from 2018 onward, mark was part of that trio and he's full QE in that sense. So, and again, being originally from the States, I've got my own cultural sort of background, you know, into it and so understanding that cultural mix and how to really elicit the best response and the best, and so they really felt part of the team and building that excellence. So we did things like we had a team logo Each one is slightly different that had real meaning for the team, real sort of significance as to what each of the symbols within that logo meant, and that was 2018. And then same for 2022, we kind of revamped it slightly Again as my learning journey continued around that space and a lot of that became around understanding the role of emotion and decision-making and how critical that is to team culture and also to performance.
Speaker 2:So, in terms of preparing for those biggest stages, understanding how to regulate emotion in that space, how to utilize that as a team you know operate from a place of calm. That became a real emphasis of my own refereeing, that I wanted to make sure that I was always refereeing out of a place of calm as best I could. And then, yeah, how to create a space where whoever I was working with because internationally we worked with the same guys, but domestically sometimes it was the same, sometimes it was different, sometimes it was new referees I'd get to work with from 2021 onward, when I came back over to the States. You know totally new context. So integrating people into that so that they felt like they belonged. Know, totally new context. So integrating people into that so that they felt like they belonged.
Speaker 2:And yeah, so it just kind of drops that sort of fear of failure, like I've always been in. You know you're around refereeing spaces and they're like you know DFU before you got to the game and I never really liked that, right, because I'm like hold on, let's. Let's give some affirmation into so let's talk about what we want to do, not what we don't want to do. Part of it is just kind of shifting a bit of that language as well and focusing on what we're going to do positively. Yeah, there's pressure there, but pressure is a privilege, right, so to be at the top of the game. So, yeah, it's a lot of kind of shifting, reframing, working with it, and again it comes back to that adaptability yeah, working with it.
Speaker 1:And again, it comes back to that adaptability. Yeah, I love that line there. You said right at the end pressure is a privilege, that it's a privilege to be asked to referee at this level. It's a privilege to be in the position that you are. But it's a privilege that's often earned, it's not just given to anyone. You know if you're being asked to do that game, generally speaking, it's because you know if you're being asked to do that game, generally speaking, it's because you've demonstrated, you know, excellence over a period of years. That's prepared you to be in that spot.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of people suffer from imposter syndrome. You know, like, am I good enough? Am I really good enough? Should I really be here? So that can be a challenge. So let's say, you do get there and you just mentioned you had a mistake, an error that occurred. So how do you deal with that as a professional referee?
Speaker 1:These days we do have VAR at the highest level and they can give us a second look at things. But I often get videos sent to me where there'll be a video taken from someone's iPhone, like from behind the goal or like in the corner, and you know it definitely looks like there was a foul, but you know the referee waves it off, there's no foul. And then this video gets posted to the internet and everyone's like, oh my gosh, how didn't he see that? How didn't she see that? So it's, you know it can be challenging. You're reffing these matches. You get one look in real time at one spot on the field. How would you advise referees you know to deal with a mistake, whether they knew about it during the match or someone posts a video later. How do you get over that and move?
Speaker 2:Great question. For me personally, I would say just don't go on social media. There's so much noise out there so, especially the higher you get, it's like actually don't get distracted with it. There can be some good, obviously, from it. But yeah, I'm like, try to pay as little attention on that side of things as possible. But yeah, I'm like, try to pay as little attention on that side of things as possible.
Speaker 2:The first thing is making sure that you have a good and close network of support of people that will be honest with you. For me, it's about owning it. I've got to say, hey, yep, I made a mistake here, because when I try to justify it, talk my way out of it and I might be initially I might've thought, yeah, I've got that. Often there's that sort of gut feeling that I'm like, oh shoot, I think I might've stuffed that up. But having a close, fairly small group of people that you can be honest with, I can be vulnerable with, and go, hey, yep, I messed up. There Comes back to that growth mindset, you know. Then looking at how did I get to that decision and then what do I need to do differently next time?
Speaker 2:It's often not about interpretation of the law. So often we understand and there's a heavy focus on this is a foul. This isn't a foul, this is reckless and we might have some minor adjustments we need to make, but so often it's about okay, what other information, what other cues did I miss here? Yeah, am I not reading the reaction of the players, right? Am I in the incorrect position? And that can happen not just often.
Speaker 2:It's around the penalty area, right? That's where most people make the. You know, as you said, filming from behind the goal. You know that positioning around the penalty area, it doesn't just happen at the penalty area, it happens halfway up the field. You know that positioning around the penalty area, it doesn't just happen at the penalty area, it happens halfway up the field. You know, did I read play well enough? So much of it is about taking it, owning it. We can easily regurgitate and just watch it over and over again and, you know, get stuck in that toxic soup of, you know, imposter syndrome. You know, oh, I'm not good enough, oh, I didn't get there. You know imposter syndrome. You know, oh, I'm not good enough, oh, I didn't get there. But owning it, processing it as best you can get, you know, just wanting that next opportunity to get back out there and do it better.
Speaker 1:I love that. So when you're coaching referees and I know I just want to give a quick moment because we're going to ask about, you know, coaching and development of referees Can you just talk a little bit about Total Referee, just real quickly, the consulting coaching business that you've built? Who's involved? Who is it for? Because I want to ask some questions about development, but I want to kind of get some context of this work that you're doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So this is a collaboration between myself, a referee, national referee here in the US, billy Hale, who runs our operations side, and then Kevin Hewitt, who is also a national assistant referee. He is a phenomenal. He's actually a senior lecturer, professor of kinesiology at, I think I can say, the University of Kennesaw State here in Georgia. He brings a technical fitness understanding plus the refereeing side to it. So this became a bit of a collaboration. We're brand new, we're in our infancy in that regard.
Speaker 2:We've been talking for a number of years about the need for ongoing integrated referee development because we know that just in the US, every state is working hard. Most of them on the referee department are volunteers. Us soccer is doing a great job with the leadership that Kerry's bringing forward there and helping to bring some clarity, probably a little bit more specificity, around how we're developing referees. There are gaps, you know, where people just aren't just by sheer numbers, just don't have the access to some of that development. So, as Billy finally said, look, carter, come on, let's do something. And so I've. I had the privilege of studying holistic or integrated refereeing development as part of my master's of sport management, of studying holistic or integrated refereeing development as part of my master's of sport management and so we're looking at it from a perspective of saying, not just on the knowledge side of things, so that you know, obviously understanding what a foul understanding there's there's. You know, the federations and the States you know are doing a lot of work specifically in that area.
Speaker 2:What we're trying to do is incorporate the other individuals I guess are working in the fitness space and they obviously trying to do is incorporate the other individuals I guess are working in the fitness space and they obviously need to combine those two things. But between the fitness and the knowledge of the game, the laws, the technical stuff a lot of that's already being handled. What we're looking at is integrating the fitness into those other aspects of refereeing. So the mindset, the understanding of your background, how your personal experience adds into your refereeing, how we build that into consistency around not just running to be fit but actually really moving. So we're looking at it from trying to take a more integrated approach to that development. And so, yeah, as we're in our infancy, we started sort of piloted with a group of high school referees out of Texas and had some great success earlier in the year and we thought, right, let's roll this out to the masses, I guess in that sense. So yeah, that's the general gist behind it.
Speaker 1:I was really surprised. One of my fellow referees here in the state of Georgia, al Tanju. A little shout out to Al Tanju For a Georgia ref. Al is like the rules master, so he's our VP of like. I don't know what his title is for high school soccer, but he's the expert of the rules. And then he's also I believe he has his regional badge now, if I'm not mistaken. Um, or maybe he's on his way to it, but I'm pretty sure he has his regional badge. But he is just like absolutely hard worker by the books, no nonsense, great guy.
Speaker 1:But even he has now put himself into your program is if, from what I understand, I mean he's actually getting coaching too to try and move to the next level, and I think that is just such an interesting thing. You know the people who want to be the best, you know number one, are willing to do you know whatever it takes to get there. But they also really understand what you talked about earlier, that growth mindset. I've got to get feedback. I need to get you know information. I need to learn how to get you know move better.
Speaker 1:I need to learn you know how to position better and all the things that go into being a top referee, so I think it's again so important that even if you think you're good, you can always be better, yeah, and if you've got goals of reaching higher levels or just being the best referee you can be getting.
Speaker 1:Coaching and feedback is so important and that's what Total Referee is trying to do. So let me ask you a question so, as you start working with these referees and let's talk about those high school referees, can you talk about, you know, when you were with that group, was there like a certain like, certain skills like that, just like you can tell man, these are the ones that we need to work on to get these people from being good to, you know, a great level. Was it positioning? Was it their mechanics? Was it communication? Was it game management, player management or, you know, reading the game, foul selection? If there was like a top two or three that man, if they focused on this, it could definitely take them up a notch, absolutely Just like World Cup referees, positioning and movement is the bedrock of good decision-making.
Speaker 2:If we're not in the correct position on the field of play in a dynamically moving game, then that will impact our consistency of decision-making and our enjoyment of the game overall. Positioning and movement is definitely the most critical point and it's amazing in talking with referees that sometimes it's only two or three meters. How do you make sure that you're actually two or three meters to the left, two or three meters to the right and, oh, all of a sudden I can see more clearly, I'm in a better view. And that's not just running in the right place, but actually we talk about how your body needs to be in the right position, the right place. But actually we talk about how your body needs to be in the right position Because, again, we're talking about in that integrated approach, that first and foremost, it's recognizing and giving validity to the fact that referees are their own athletic population.
Speaker 2:We need to develop them in a different way than we do. Players and coaches. Referees don't just tumble out of their van ready to go. It takes work, just like you do with the players and coaches. Referees don't just tumble out of their van ready to go. It takes work, just like you do with the players and coaches, understanding that it's deliberate work, right, and so I've got a position to move to in better ways. It depends, again, understanding what each individual brings to the game is going to depend, then, on that probably that number, that next number, two or three. So it might be that there is some issue.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they do have a bit of a thing around that consistency of that confidence around decision-making. It might be that their personality. They just need to learn how to dial it down or dial it up. How can I be more fluid, bring it up and down? You know, some referees just need to smile more, in my opinion, right.
Speaker 2:So like hey, just and cause, these are all things that I guess that I learned along the way, that you know, when I look back, I'm like if I had that five, 10, 15 years ago, and I think I would have been a better, I would have been a better referee. And, as you alluded to earlier, what we want to focus on are things that don't just make you a better referee on the field, but actually there's a whole lot of research to show that referees are sought after off the field of play. You know in work, in their careers, you never use your referee hand at home, you know, with your partner. No red and yellow cards in the house, please. So yeah, again, it depends on what the person is bringing to the game in terms of what those next facets might be in that development. But that's why it's important to build that whole profile of the referee.
Speaker 1:It's so interesting you mentioned positioning. I would tell you, not only will positioning help you make a better call on the field, but you'll look so much better. Doing it like your credibility goes sky high if you're, you know you're in a great position and you're right on top of the play after that challenge happens and you know it's. It's so important because the coaches see that, the players see that, the spectators see that and it takes your credibility dramatically up. You know, I think there's so many things that referees can do to make their life easy. And yes, positioning, movement One.
Speaker 1:You even talked about that personality, like being here, actually seeming like you're enjoying yourself out there and having fun and trying to relate I mean not trying to be. You know we talk about smile. You know we don't want to be flippant when someone's outrageously angry and upset about something we don't want to completely. You know just laugh them off, cause that'll just take their anger up a notch. But you know, sometimes you know a smile and be like, no, it didn't happen. Or you know it didn't seem like that, it wasn't a humble offense, whatever it might be, just to like kind of.
Speaker 2:You know, bring the humanness to the game and humanness to the official.
Speaker 1:You know that they are a human being and that really changes how people treat you on the pew. Act like you are just only disciplinarian and you're holier than thou and you're. You never make a mistake and you're perfect and you're talking down to people. People will freaking hate you and it will be a miserable experience. Yeah totally.
Speaker 2:I went through the meat grinder a bit as a fourth official on the Australian A-League with one particular coach and he was known for being just a real piece of work to deal with and most of the time if I wanted to affect any change on him I had to go through the assistant coach when I knew he was in town I knew my work was cut out for me and I remember at one point kind of getting into it it was hard right. And the assistant coach said to me at one point he's like you know, just crack a joke every now and again, it would actually help. That was kind of like oh yeah, actually Okay. So if we can laugh a little bit then I can still be firm in my message. But I can get that across in a way that becomes non-confront, less confrontational, and as I started to integrate that in that made a difference. But again, those are all skills that you can learn. For sure. Some people naturally have it, but you can learn.
Speaker 1:so much of it, just as a small piece before we move on to the next question. I encourage all referees, especially at the grassroots level, pre-match, when you're warming up, when you're connecting with the crew go greet those coaches.
Speaker 1:Go say hi with a smile when you don't have anything pressing to deal with. Just go meet them, ask how their day is, how the season's going. Build some rapport pre-match and it'll make it so much better during the match when you do need to have a tougher conversation. So can we talk a little bit about voice tone, body language, because there are times when you do need to be the display.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's yes there's times to be friendly and nice, but there's also times that you need to be the display area. I mean, there's, yes, there's times to be friendly and nice, but there's also times that you need to be strong, and I think this is again one of these things where a lot of referees are like dude, how do I do that? Can I learn that? Can someone teach me that? Is there something I need to do? We talk about presence and being the ref on the field, being nice and smiling. How does someone also deal with man? They need to be strong and they need to, you know, make those tough calls in the moment and they need to deal with very upset players. Is there any advice that you give for that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, again, part of that's understanding your own personality. What do I bring to it, what are my triggers, you know. Do I go into fight, flight, freeze or faint, and you know that can when it comes in, and you can see it on a referee, right, sometimes you know it's been myself. You know my eyes get big, I can get in somebody's face, I don't mind, I'm six, three, I can generally hang with most players, and you know. But sometimes you see referees just kind of in fact, and I have at times as well, just gone into myself and not really dealt with and managed it. So, first and foremost, it's understanding you know your own personality, your own triggers, you know in terms of where you are comfortable in that, and then it's, you know, absolutely you can learn, you can learn these skills. So, and again, we're going to get it, we're going to get it wrong and we're going to get it right. We're going to there.
Speaker 2:There's times that, again, in that self-reflection, you've got to be able to recognize what's working and what's not working. And this is again where integrated training comes in. We can be doing more training off the field of play, out of game, out of match mode, where even with players. We can practice some of this stuff If they get a group of players together and give them an opportunity to have a bit of a go at the referee, so that the referee can learn how to manage it. You'll find willing participants, I guarantee it. But you know it's a part of it's practicing. You know, in front of a mirror watching across the US now, at all levels, even at grassroots levels, so many of the games are videoed, right. So getting access to video, watching yourself, referee, and then, I would say as well, being able to get some advice in terms of what you can do, because there are specific skills in there that can work. So, yeah, the big, again, it's understanding.
Speaker 2:When do I need to? Is this a hill that I need to die on or is this a place that I can have some flexibility? And you know, probably in the early days we want to err on the side of. I probably need to be a bit, maybe a little bit more firm. I don't want to be a wishy-washy, you know, kind of space, but then learning, taking small moments where you can go. Okay, I'll just try this different little thing. Oh, does that work? Yeah, great, okay, I can keep that in my toolkit, right, it didn't work. Oh shoot, that really backfired on me.
Speaker 2:I had to apologize to a player once. You know. I said oh. I kind of said to him oh look, you know, we got your eye on you type of thing. He's like what, you prejudging me and helped me to kind of prevent some stuff. But actually it created problems and I had to just I had to again own it and say, look, man, I'm really sorry, I'm not judging you, I want you to play well, we just want this to go well. And he, he softened and he was able to to. You know, we had a, it was a, it was actually quite a competitive match. But the moment I kind of said, hey look, sorry, I misjudged you, he recognized, okay, we're cool, and we went. So yeah, it's just trying to learn from every scenario that you're in.
Speaker 1:Well, let's talk a little about if someone were to join Total Ref and come work with you and Kevin and Billy you know what are the different types of things that you guys would do. What's part of the program you mentioned video review. What else is involved in the program that you guys put together to help us get to that next level?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So part of it is also creating that community of learning. So we're working with referees from across the states and the region that you know it's important to be in the space of belonging right. So you want to build a community of learning in that. So other referees working with other referees, so there's small group work around clip analysis. In that and you know from a place of you know one of the values is, hey, you've got to be vulnerable. We don't want to see your best clips here. This is about we'll recognize really good work and good decision-making Absolutely, but actually you need to bring what you need to learn, so be ready to be vulnerable.
Speaker 2:And then we're looking at again that raft of other non, I guess the broader character skills around refereeing. So you know, understanding your background, match what's happening in your personal life into your refereeing, because that can create stressors that impact your decision-making, you know. And then again, understanding and tracking how that consistency of decision-making you know is applied on the field of play. So you know you get a connection to other referees working in other spaces. Part of what brought me here is understanding there's a growing body of research behind refereeing. So we're working on how we apply that into this space to create a greater sense of belonging, well-being and performance.
Speaker 2:And then it's consistent communication via text, regular monthly meetings together. We're also the space where, if something really goes wrong, we want you to know that you've got our support, so you've got somebody that you can call, and we know that at the state level there are great people doing great work across the board. You need to stay connected into those state associations and of course we want to make sure that we're working with the organizations, state associations, with US soccer, we're very much in line with the coaching and development that is being led in that space. This is about collaboration. It's not about sort of trying to go off and just do random stuff. That's kind of the ins and outs of it, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, it is very interesting. So, like in other countries in England in particular, I have probably most experience talking with fellow referees over there they actually earn lower game fees, but they get a lot more support from the Referee Association and from the Football Association, a lot more training, a lot more development and reassessments on their path and more of a development pathway and progression that we don't have here in the United States. So it does fall upon the referees, the grassroots referees and the regional referees if they want to move up and they want to do higher level games they just want to be better at their craft they do have to invest in their own training. You know, whether that's locally or with an organization like Total Referee, you know this is how you do it. You build that community, you get that feedback on an ongoing basis and it will take you to the next level.
Speaker 1:So I love what you guys are doing, love that you guys are giving back. I really do appreciate it. I just have one more question for you here as you look back across your journey what does refs need love to mean to you personally and professionally? Like, if you think about why we need love, give love to other refs. Can you give any thoughts on that? What does that?
Speaker 2:mean to you. For me, it is about the fact that we are as much a part of the game as the players and the coaches. We want to see the beautiful game being played beautifully. I see refereeing as a creative endeavor, so it's kind of like how do I do my job in such a way that brilliance can be played? You know that brilliant score, that the goal can be scored because I've allowed an advantage or I've whistled a free kick correctly so that the player can curl it into the top corner. It's about enabling the game and it's also being, again, it's trying to say hey, we're not a service provider to the game, we're actually a key stakeholder, that one of those three pillars of the game, with players and coaches and referees. So we absolutely need love because we love the game too.
Speaker 1:I think that's such a great answer. I mean gave me a little goosebumps here, matthew, and it's like I just have to say you can't have beautiful soccer without a good referee out there.
Speaker 1:It just doesn't happen because, people are just constantly holding tripping, nothing's getting called. It just winds up becoming a big fight out there. No one likes that. No one wants that at all. You know, in the youth game maybe there's some recreational, you know adult league things that actually prefer playing that way. I'll never ref for them, but for the most part, especially at youth soccer, if you've got a good referee out there who's managing the game and actually calling the fouls, you will see beautiful soccer take place. You'll actually see skills on display. You'll see people putting the ball on the ground and you'll see people progressing. You know beautiful soccer with great technical ability. So it absolutely. You know critical. Yeah, you know love on these refs to keep them around, love on them through education, love on them through support, love on them through community and make them feel part of the game. I love that.
Speaker 1:You said that the part of the game you know, and man, that is just good for everyone. My gosh, matthew. Thank you so much. Just before we wrap up here, can you tell people how to get in touch with you and your fellow referees in Total Referee?
Speaker 2:Yep, it's totalrefereecom and again, across the socials there as well. So it's nice and simple. Have a look. Please feel free to drop us a line if you've got any questions or interested. They're happy to help in any way we can. And again, this is about really supporting. We want to support the referees you know across the board to get as much as they can out of the game and out of their career. As you say, the more referees that we have on the field and the happier and the more love they're getting, the more that the game is continuing to grow and thrive, and that's really what we want to see.
Speaker 1:I love that man. Hey, I'm so glad to see you here in Georgia. Hopefully I'll see you out on the pitch sometime. I really do appreciate you taking the time and joining us on the podcast today.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me, and all the very best.
Speaker 1:All right guys. Thank you so much for listening today. I mean, matthew is an absolute joy. It's been so amazing to see his career and rise from here in Texas and Georgia all the way to the World Cup Not just one, but two, my gosh and the Olympics. An amazing career and wonderful guy. I highly encourage you guys to check out TotalRefereecom. I will also encourage you guys to check out RefsNeedLove2.com. Again, the season is upon us. If you haven't gotten yourself some new cards with the pregame checklist on it score cards, maybe new flags it's that time to upgrade. Definitely check them out on the store Again, every penny earned there helps support this channel here. I love all of you and I hope your next match is red card break. We'll see you next time.