REFS NEED LOVE TOO
An honest perspective from the 3rd team on the pitch... the referees. Through humor, analysis and education, we are slowly changing how people view referees and officials in all sports. We care and have a love for the game as much as any player or coach. Sometimes even more. Youth soccer (proper football) is a multi-billion $ industry in the US. Tremendous money is spent on players, competitions, travel etc., but almost nothing spent on developing the next generation of referees. I hope that this Podcast inspires, educates and humanizes the next generation of referees for their own development and appreciation from the players, coaches and spectators they need to work alongside.
REFS NEED LOVE TOO
A Young Ref Stands Up To Abuse And Finds Her Voice: Special Guest Mia Clark
The whistle isn’t the hard part. It’s the noise around it—sidelines boiling over, subtle bias that undermines authority, and those early games where one bad interaction can end a career before it starts. We sit down with rising official Mia Clark to talk about staying in the game, building real confidence, and why supporting women on the whistle changes everything.
Mia traces her path from a 14-year-old assistant learning the lines in the rain to assignments in the USLW and high school state playoffs. She shares the moments that almost pushed her out, the mentors who kept her grounded, and a simple, firm script that turns chaos into clarity: address the negative behavior, set boundaries and enforce consequences.
Along the way, we cover practical tools for young refs—rehearsed language for dissent and when to demand crowd management or terminate a match. Mia’s stories reveal how small choices by assistants, coaches, and athletic directors can empower or erode a center’s authority.
We also make the case for refereeing as a flexible, high-value job for students that builds decision-making, conflict resolution, and composure under pressure. And we spotlight why seeing women command a match matters for every player, parent, and future official.
If you care about better soccer, safer games, and keeping good people on the field, this conversation is a blueprint. Listen, share with your crew, and help change the culture one match at a time. Subscribe, leave a review, and tell us: what’s your go-to line for handling dissent?
Mia, that was a horrible call. I don't know how you missed that. You've got to be kidding me.
SPEAKER_00:I'm gonna come over. I'm gonna be like, hey, coach, that wasn't very nice of what you said. I'm out here doing my best. I don't necessarily have eyes in the back of my head. We're gonna try to get this right. Your manner of speaking to me is completely inappropriate, and I need you to stop. If you don't, there's a card coming your way.
SPEAKER_02:I personally believe it is absolutely critical that we get more female referees in the refereeing ranks for a number of different reasons. And it's a serious problem because I know as I do referee mentor classes, when I do the initial first-time class, it's if not 50-50, maybe 60-40 boys and girls. And I say boys and girls to a lot of teenagers in those classes, very few adult female referees. But on the teenagers, it's about 60-40. But about three years in, I think it drops to about maybe 80-20 when I've got referees who are 17, 18 years old. And by the time I'm starting to work with adults and I see adults around the room, especially in like my mentor classes, I think I've talked about this, it is like 90-10, if not 95, 5% men to women. We lose female referees at a ridiculously troubling rate. And yes, it is how they are treated often by coaches and by spectators and by players and disrespect they receive from them. But it's also things that we may be doing subconsciously as fellow referees. Are we creating a welcoming environment? Are we creating a supportive environment? Are we backing up that referee? Are we lifting them up onto a pedestal? And when I say on a pedestal, when we are the assistants and they are the referee, are we making sure that they're getting the respect that they deserve from the coaches and the players that they're working with? Are we shutting down any dissent or any chauvinistic comments that might be coming their way? You know, are we backing them up, you know, when they need to make a tough call about dissent or sending someone off who's been disrespectful? Mia Clark, who's joining us on today's pod, and you're gonna heal all about her. I found her on Facebook or Instagram. I saw a post that she was part of the first ever all female high school referee crew in central Minnesota. And I saw it and I commented on the post and we went back and forth, and I was like, oh man, I need to have you on the podcast. She is a really talented young lady who keeps on moving up the ranks as a referee, and she's in college and continues to referee. And I just thought it would be a joy to have her on the podcast. One last thing before we get into the show, just letting you know, I am doing fine. My dad passed away now about two and a half weeks ago. I have so many great memories of him, and I have images and videos and wonderful ways to carry on his legacy. I think today I didn't cry a single time, which might be the first time in the last two and a half weeks that I have not cried. So that's a big step forward. But I've smiled about him and I've talked to my brother uh about him today and had positive memories about him. So things are going well for me. Again, thank you so much for all the positive messages that I've received, literally over a thousand messages from all around the world. So, again, thank you so much for your warm thoughts. Uh, refs Need Love 2 is going strong. I am having so much fun, and I'm looking forward to have you guys listen to this new episode. Hello and welcome to the Refs Need Love 2 podcast, a show that gives you a real, raw, and behind-the-scenes view of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch. The referee. I'm your host, David Gerson, a grassroots referee and certified mentor with over 11 years of experience in over 1,300 matches under my belt. You can find me at refsneadlove2.com on Instagram, TikTok, and on YouTube. Today's guest is Mia Clark. She is originally from La Plata, Maryland. She's 20 years old and currently a junior at St. Cloud State University in Minnesota. So many good people out of Minnesota, my gosh. She's an exercise science major who's actually free for physical therapy. She has a sister who's a freshman at University of Maryland, GoTerps, who's also a referee, so it runs in her family. She played Docker from 2008 when she was four years old, all the way to the time when she was 18. She definitely had some college offers. She's certainly quite a good player, but lingering injuries chose to take an academic route to college. She took her officiating course in the winter of 2018 at 14 years old and has been doing it now for about eight years, approximately 500 games under her belt. And now she's worked up to the highest level of women's soccer in Minnesota, which is the USLW, that she's done some referee assignments for that. So I am so excited to welcome Mia to the program.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02:Oh no, it is my pleasure. I'm so glad we gotten to connect. I know we connected on social media, and it's just fun that we have the opportunity to meet. I know we haven't worked any games together, but I am particularly interested in female referees that are moving through the ranks, okay, that are starting at that grassroots level and stick long enough to start making it up to the USL, either men's or women's. I just think it's so fantastic. And I want to see more and more women do that. I want to have a conversation about your experience and what we could be doing to better support you on that journey as referees. So let's get started at the beginning. What first got you into being a referee?
SPEAKER_00:My mom and dad both refereed in college at the University of Nebraska and University of Wisconsin. They did that to get through college. One day there's no referee or linesman at my sister's game. We both played soccer. My dad was like, you know what? Why don't you go do it? You're such a stickler for the rules. Go be a linesman. So I'm like, okay. Grab the flag. I'm all out of position. I did it. It sucked. My dad was coaching me through it, grabbing me by my shoulders. No, you're supposed to be over here. Great. Now go run down the line. Make sure you stay with this person. And I'm like, you know what? That wasn't too bad. So this was like a springtime. And then during the winter, I took the class. Lo and behold, eight years later, here I am.
SPEAKER_02:That's fantastic. It is very interesting. I think there is a subsection of the population that is just a stickler for the rules. I actually played pickleball this morning. And I was like, again, I'm just a rule person. My own teammate. We're not like experts or anything at pickleball, but she was stepping into the kitchen for those pickleballers out there hitting a ball out of the air. And I was like, hey, we can't do that. It's like, you're on my team. I was like, I know, but it's the rules. But I do think it is interesting. Uh there are certain people who just are really they care about the rules and they care about fairness and they care about ethics and they want to enforce the rules. So I don't know how we're made, how that happens, but it does happen. Do you remember the first time that you actually had a whistle for the match, the first time you were at the referee in the center for a match?
SPEAKER_00:It was probably some little kids' game. I did a lot of those for my first couple of years, but I never got into centering until my first three years of being a referee. I did a bunch of ARs all the way up till the U19 travel level, where I still hadn't done like a U6 center yet. That really didn't come in until year four, where I started to actually have a whistle.
SPEAKER_02:So talk to me about that because that's something that's come up a number of times. I've seen these nightmare situations where there'll be a young referee, a 13-year-old referee who's immediately thrown into the center for a U10 um game, which can be very competitive and scary. Even just as an assistant referee, being on a U-14 Academy match for your first time can be really intense. Were you reffing with all those AR positions as assistant referees? Were you with your sister? Because I know you said your sister also refereed. How did you do that for three years? And did you enjoy being the assistant as opposed to maybe didn't want to step into the middle?
SPEAKER_00:So I'll tell you a little story about my very first game that I did. It was a little traumatic. That's why I remember it in high detail. So it was a Friday night, a U12 rec plus game. It was stormy, it was rainy, and I made a couple of really bad calls, as everybody does on their first go-around. I'm 14 and I'm like, yeah, this is definitely off sides. It wasn't on. And then I got a little bit of AR dyslexia, which I was exposed to the term this year, which is basically I'm just pointing in the direction that the team had the previous half. Which I'm pretty sure I still do to this day.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And then I'm like, wait, no, that way.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's a very common issue, but please go on.
SPEAKER_00:And then I did the second game right after, and then I hear thunder. And I'm like, hey, to my center, I hear thunder. And they're like, Are you sure? Are you sure that's not a plane? So then I had the coach pull up his radar, and he's like, Yeah, no, we're surrounded. Let's go. By no means was it a pretty start.
SPEAKER_02:No, but the good news about that is you actually get paid for the game still, if it's gonna rain out there in the middle of the game. So that's not necessarily a bad result. I remember the first game that I was ever an assistant referee. My son was the other assistant referee, and I didn't know that you can't be offside in your own half. So I literally, from my half of the field as the AR, was going all the way down into the other half of the field. And the coach was like, What are you doing over here? You should be back over there. I made up some excuse acting like I knew, but I think that is one of these things. It's a good thing that we can get people on the sideline as an assistant referee for as long as they need it at a game that they feel comfortable and at a club that's respectful of referees as well. Because I needed it. Even as a 40, you know, I think I was 40 years old when I was in America doing my first official certified assistant referee assignments. I needed games just to watch another referee work and to get comfortable on the field in that uniform before you're ready to start stepping into the center. What do you think about what's the hardest part about being new to refereeing?
SPEAKER_00:The coaches, the players, all the yelling, being bombarded with questions and criticism when you haven't developed that sense of confidence yet.
SPEAKER_02:So you said parents, coaches, players being bombarded with criticism when you haven't developed that confidence yet. I think that's so interesting. There's so many people, like when I post videos about referee abuse and people make the comments about, well, if they don't have a thick enough skin, they shouldn't be a referee. It takes time to develop confidence in your decisions. If you destroy someone's confidence before they even know what they're doing or have any understanding of what they should be doing, they just won't come back. So you could have a good referee, but if they have a negative experience and get that criticism early on, um, they'll never develop into a good referee. They'll just quit. And I think that's so brutal. Do you have any, if you were able to speak to the parent, the soccer parents of America or the soccer coaches of America, what would you tell them about that new referee who's standing in front of them? What would you say to help them get the right perspective about that referee?
SPEAKER_00:They're a beginner, just like you were a beginner. Did you know what you were doing with a bunch of 10-year-olds who are running around kicking a soccer ball and not paying attention and not listening? No. You didn't know how to handle them. You didn't have the confidence that didn't to know what to do in that situation. They're the exact same way. They're still learning, they're still growing in the same way that you are.
SPEAKER_02:I think it's important. A lot of things that I'll do in my videos or webinars, I'll put up a picture of a 13-year-old soccer player in a player jersey, and I'll just say, would you ever yell at this player for missing a shot or mistiming a tackle? No. You would just accept it and appreciate that they're learning. If they put on a referee jersey, why is it acceptable to yell at that person for potentially making a mistake? They're not going to be perfect just like the other kids out there. Perspective is a big deal. So through that initial first three years as a referee, doing those AR assignments, which again, I think it's great that you took the time and built the confidence until you were ready to step in the center, if that's what you wanted to. Was there ever a moment where you almost quit? And what was it that enabled you to keep going?
SPEAKER_00:I can think of one specific tournament that I did in my first couple of years. I was ARing, I think it was a U11 game. They hadn't moved up to the bigger field yet because it was on different sides of the complex. I made a couple of bad calls. I won't lie. It's my first season, it's my first spring. I made a bad call, and right as the game ended, I saw the coach who had been criticizing me the entire game sprint over to the center tent where the other referees and my mentor and the guy who had done my class to go complain about me. I knew that's exactly what he was doing. And I sat there and cried, and the center referee came over to comfort me.
SPEAKER_02:My gosh, wait, this was during the game he ran to the center tent to come.
SPEAKER_00:It was right as the game ended. Oh his team won. And I still remember that.
SPEAKER_02:It's brutal. It's so painful. It's so painful. Yeah. No, it's hard to deal with that. I think again, that resilience you develop though, going through that, like they criticized me, but it's oh gosh, there's so many things I want to say about that. I could have made you quit, but but talk to me about that. So you're crying, you're sad, they went to go talk to your mentor. Did you talk to your mentor afterwards? What kept you moving?
SPEAKER_00:No, that was my last game of the day, and I went home.
SPEAKER_02:Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_00:I got some ice cream. And then I did a couple more games at a different complex with a different club and did that for a little bit.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I don't think I ever saw that coach again.
SPEAKER_02:Well, let me ask you this question. You mentioned that your parents were both referees in college. You mentioned that your sister was a referee. Was that helpful to you? Did they counsel you through some of these difficult early times? Did they encourage you to keep going? Was there any specific advice they gave you that helped you overcome those difficulties?
SPEAKER_00:My sister is a younger sister. It was really my mom and dad who comforted me. And I was really good friends with my assigner, Margie Watson. I would call her and explain what happened, and she would help me out through some things, give me some advice. I would also talk to another mentor of mine, Mike Chetek. I had a really nice circle of support with the leagues I grew up with.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's amazing. A lot of young referees, I don't think, have that same type of community. It's interesting you mentioned Margie in particular, your assigner that you'd call and get some mentoring from her. Was that like a formal thing? Like she was a formal mentor and you were assigned to her, or was she someone you met and felt comfortable and you just reach out when you need her?
SPEAKER_00:Uh reach out when I needed her. She was a sweet old woman. I didn't get refereeing advice. I more so got confidence advice from her.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And she would comfort me and say, It's okay, do this and hold your head up high. You're still young, you're still learning. And she was actually the one that pushed me to stop, not necessarily stop, but stop ARing and go into some of those younger group of younger kids centers, those U8, U6s. And she's like, Yeah, it's time.
SPEAKER_02:And did you enjoy that when you finally did step in to do those U6, U8, U10 matches? Was that fun for you?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, it was a blast. I would tie their shoes and they would just run around. I'm like, no, you can't do that. And they're all lifting their foot. They're just running around in a group trying to chase the ball. It's hilarious. It's so fun. It's where you get to the U11, U12, where it becomes a little less fun if you don't have the confidence and aren't ready for that level. But the U6s through U8s, they're a blast.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's fantastic. So I will tell you, I got it's interesting. You started at 14. I actually received an email today from a 14-year-old referee. And I would love for you to listen to the email and then ask you what advice do you have for this young man? He says, Hi, David. My name is Eduardo Ruiz Serrano, and I am 14 years old. I wanted to ask for your advice on dealing with coaches and parents who constantly comment on every call I make during games. Recently, I gave a yellow card, and even after that, the parents were still bitter and yelling. It's been really frustrating because I try and stay calm and professional, but it gets hard when adults who are respectfully over 35 years old treat young refs like that. This kind of behavior is honestly one of the reasons why fewer people my age want to become referees. I really enjoy officiating, but I'm struggling with how to control my emotions and mental state during all the chaos. How do you personally handle situations like that? Thank you for taking the time to read this. I'd really appreciate any tips or advice you can share. Best Eduardo Ruiz Serrano.
SPEAKER_01:This kid, 14 years old.
SPEAKER_02:He writes better than most 40-year-olds. Oh my gosh. So what would you say to that? So this is a 14-year-old referee. They're dealing with dissent from coaches and parents. He's struggling with how to control his emotions and mental state during all the chaos. So, what advice do you have for other young referees? It's a very charged environment where you've got adults who might be yelling things out loud or maybe at you. How would you advise a dwarf? And what do you do to try and keep calm and under control and confident when you've got that noise around you?
SPEAKER_00:Like you said, we're focusing on your emotions as a referee and how to stay calm in that sort of situation, which, first of all, completely inappropriate of the parents and coaches and the way that they're acting, absolutely inappropriate and never should be the case ever. But one thing that could help is practicing in those situations that happen, right? Maybe replay them in your head and how you would go about it if you were in the future. You know how if you're in an argument with somebody and they insult you and the argument ends. You go your separate ways and you think of something that, oh, yeah, I would have said this. As long as we're not insulting people, that's never okay. Uh even though intentions and emotions may be high, practicing for those situations of what I could have said to make the situation better. Maybe practicing what you would have said to the crowd, what you would have said to the coaches, and practicing those emotions instead. And you would also practice what you would say and not stumble on your words when it counts. Because having that sort of confidence of I know what I'm gonna say if this situation were to arise, I'm gonna say this and I'm gonna say in this manner. And that's gonna make everything so much smoother, better, and calmer.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. All right, so let's role-play this out because I know what I would say, but now I'm really curious about what you said. So, Mia, I'm about to be a coach who has been engaged in public and persistent descent. And the last things I'm gonna say to you, Mia, and you're gonna come back and use the right words on me, get me back in control.
SPEAKER_01:Mia, that was a horrible call. I don't know how you missed that. You've got to be kidding me.
SPEAKER_00:I'm gonna come over. I'm gonna say, hey, coach, that wasn't very nice of what you said. I'm out here doing my best. I don't necessarily have eyes in the back of my head. I don't have comms where I can communicate with my ARs. We're gonna try to get this right. Your manner of speaking to me is completely inappropriate, and I need you to stop. If you don't, there's a card coming your way. If you think you can do better, please take the class. We always need more referees, right? Have a good one.
SPEAKER_02:I love that. That's great. Big collabs right here. Give it the air high five. That's fantastic. And the spirit fingers, that's fabulous. I know, we'll do the air five. That's great. I think there's a couple real nuggets of genius in there. We're doing the best that we can, but you the thing that was really powerful is the line about their behavior. What you said was not nice, it's inappropriate, you need to stop, or there will be consequences. And I think that's the really big thing. We're not arguing about calls, we're not discussing a certain play because that's not up for argument. The call is the call. But what is an issue that we have to talk about is their behavior and what the consequences for that behavior will be. How do you get through those emotions when you feel like maybe you did make mistakes and bad calls? What advice would you give to your 14-year-old self now, knowing what you know after eight years of roughing?
SPEAKER_00:So while you're the one with the badge, right? You're the one who took the class. This is a parent who's only ever experienced their kids screaming. Maybe they played in high school, but there's no guarantee they took the class and they're just yelling at you because that's all they've been exposed to either on television or in their own experience. That shouldn't be on you, and you should have more confidence in yourself.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. Oftentimes when someone is yelling at a referee, it's rarely about the referee, it's really about them, the person yelling, and their own insecurities and their own feeling of failure, or they're worried about their kid. It's rarely through an objective referee's eyes when they're voicing things like that. So it's definitely an issue. Let's talk a little bit about being a female referee in what is quite honestly a male-dominated space. I refereed three games yesterday, the five other referees around me, there were two crews, it was all men. When I referee high school, it's almost always men. Rarely is there another woman there. When I do these referee classes, there'll be 60% guys, 40% girls, pretty even split. But by the time it's three, four years in, it's like 80, 20, five, seven years, it's really 90, 10. I'm concerned about what is happening, what is happening. Because it's not that they're not great tons of potential young female referees. There is, but something's occurring, whether it's within the referees or how these young female referees are treated, that is pushing a lot of these people away. Have you noticed any particular differences in how players or coaches treat you because you're a woman?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I have had multiple moments this season during high school where I've refereed with two men that were significantly older than I was, your stereotypical old white fat referees. And because that's stereotypical of what you think when with referees. And most of the time they assume that these men are the centers and would go up to them talking to them about like procedures and only making eye contact with them. But then I was or I was supported by one of my Rs that said, Oh, don't talk to me about that. She's the boss. That made me feel empowered, recognized, and acknowledged. That's definitely one of the things that needs to be changed rather than assuming who's center, especially as the coach, as the players, and as the athletic directors for high school.
SPEAKER_02:I think it's a big deal. I had a game yesterday where there was a female head coach for one of the teams. I noticed that she was specifically giving direction to the players as they were warming up. And when I said coach, I looked at her, I walked straight to her, I shook her hand first and got her name so that she knew that I was treating her as the coach, that I wasn't deferring to other men around. She's the coach, she's the person that I need to be working with. But I think that is so important. And I think we as fellow referees and old white men, thankfully I'm not in the fat category yet, but I might be someday. I hope not.
SPEAKER_01:You're friends.
SPEAKER_02:I think it is so important to really make sure that we look like we are supporting that female referee and that we're deferring to her. She's the one doing check-ins, the coin toss, and speaking with captains. We're also making sure that we're supporting all of her decisions going far and beyond to really make sure that everyone knows that she's running that match. Have you ever experienced anything where there was people being overtly rude or chauvinistic or have made comments to you that made you feel uncomfortable as a female referee?
SPEAKER_00:They were both during high school, actually. There was a moment this season where in Minnesota State High Schools, ARs have the ability to talk to the athletic director or somebody in charge if the crowd is being rowdy. This crowd is majority teenage boys who I can only assume is the home team's soccer team coming out to support their girls. Fantastic. I love that they did that. But then they went from cheering for their team to yelling at me in a consistent and loud, obnoxious manner where it was affecting my ability as a referee. So I go over to the head coach. I'm like, hey, can you please stop your boys? I was eventually told I needed to have thicker skin.
SPEAKER_02:Who told you that?
SPEAKER_00:The head coach of the home team for the girls.
SPEAKER_02:Oh my gosh. The person responsible for the young women at his school. You need to have thicker skin. That's what he's saying about you.
SPEAKER_00:And then I'm like, wait, can I speak to your athletic director, please? They get the athletic director down and I'm like, hey, can you please deal with this crowd? They're affecting my services to you if they can go from screaming at me to screaming for their team. They were apparently behind the away team's bench. And I found out later that they had insulted the away teams head coach, saying that she looked like a seven-year-old child. This is coming straight from the away teams coach. So they were also being bothersome to her and her team as well and affecting their performance. So I asked the athletic director, can you please move your boys and make sure that they shift their loud expressions towards their own team in a positive manner? I was greeted or I was met with the same response of you need thicker skin. This is shouldn't be a problem. It was compared to a large hockey game. This is high school. Oh yeah, he got a call from my assigner about that because they're supposed to be there to support us and what we need to be able to provide our best services to them and not sub doing their job was obviously an issue when we're supposed to be able to go to them for support if it's not an outrageous demand. Yeah. Which in this case wasn't. Even with my male AR to back me up, it was still an issue.
SPEAKER_02:That's a serious issue. For everyone listening to this podcast, if a one young any referee comes to you and says, I'm being I'm receiving verbal abuse or someone has said something inappropriate, deal with it. Card that person, dismiss that parent, issue the warnings, whatever you need to do. But to just blow it off and say you need to get a thicker skin is absolutely perpetuating the issue and making it worse, chasing good people away. No one wants to work in a toxic environment. So that is definitely a major concern. I'm so sorry that happened to you. And hope enough of the stink was made of that and that won't be tolerated again. But I will also say for you and anyone else listening out there, if you're in an environment where the coach and the assistant or the athletic director will not stop abuse coming to you as a referee, you don't need to stay. You can just abandon the match. Or say we won't start this match until that is dealt with, or you clear the stands.
SPEAKER_00:Which is what happened. Oh no. In that case, I told him straight up, I have the power to terminate this game if this is not dealt with.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:And that's what got him to move.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I'm so disappointed it came to that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. No, it's a shame. Because again, educator, it's a school event. Or whatever youth event it is, they should definitely be supporting you. As a decent human being, a father of a young woman as well, and just a member of my community. My gosh, I would really want to make sure that my first off, the people serving us, providing the service to taken care of, but specifically the young female referees. I've I don't know if I've told this story on the podcast before, but I had a situation where I was the main referee for an over 35 recreational 7v7 adult match. Okay, just to give you an idea of how absurdly ludicrous it is. By the way, I don't do those matches anymore because the behavior of those meatheads for the most part, although it's co-ed, there's very few women that play, it's mostly guys. And I had this meathead, this like 30-something guy, like all the big jacked dude, whatnot. It's three minutes into the match. There is a situation where my young 15-year-old African-American female assistant referee calls an offside correctly because a player came from an offside position back on to an onside position. And that's one of those plays that most people can't see except for the assistant referee. And this guy immediately is, what? That's ridiculous. Like, and takes steps towards her. Like he's still 10 yards away, but starts walking towards her while he's yelling at her. This young 15 year old, 90. Pound girl. Are you kidding me? I was beside myself.
SPEAKER_01:I was like, no way.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely not. That's ridiculous. I carted him. I was like, you cannot talk to my referees like this. Certainly not this young woman. They were shocked. They were like, are you kidding? What? They were thinking it's a natural reaction that I should be able to talk to someone like that. I'm like, that's so inappropriate. So I think it's a big issue for referees everywhere, but it's one of the things where men in some circles of society feel it is their right to be able to talk down to and insult young women, and specifically women in positions of power, that is a serious issue. And I think it's one of the reasons why we lose so many great young female referees, unfortunately. Let's talk forward. You've stuck with this for eight years and you're continuing to progress. Are you feeling that you've got good opportunities to advance as a female referee? Do you feel conditions improving, getting worse? What are your thoughts about where you can go from here?
SPEAKER_00:For me personally, I feel like I've had a lot of really good opportunities. I can't speak for all women because we all have different backgrounds, we all know different people, we all have different paths. But for me personally, I started off really slow and it didn't start to pick up until my last two and a half years of refing. This summer, I had the opportunity to do two games of the highest level of women's soccer here in Minnesota, which was the Minnesota Aurora against Sioux Falls City FC, and then Rochester FC versus Sioux Falls City. I met some really amazing people there that where I got to meet Brian Wood, who is a former national referee. He centered that Rochester FC game in Sioux Fall City. I am now given the opportunity to center a quarterfinal state game here for high school, which this is crazy because it's only my second state game. But I've apparently proven myself. I've done more boys' varsity centers than girls, surprisingly, all because I asked the girls aren't challenging me anymore. I'd like to do a couple more boys' centers. They can get growdy, teenage boys. So I did that. It was great. And I'm happy that I was listened to and given the opportunity. But some women may not have that circle of support that I do. And I'd like more women to have that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, I completely agree. I have to tell you, my female referee counterparts who are at the top in my state of Georgia, some of the best referees that I know. And again, I think it's a little bit of a different approach, different style. They're all very unique and different in how they go about it. But I love having them there. I think it is really important for young men to be working with women who are uh officiating, you know who are in those positions of authority. I think it's good for them to learn how to speak respectfully. But I also think it's so important for young women to see other women in positions of responsibility and authority. Referee can carry themselves with confidence, but not arrogance, and the ability to make tough calls under pressure and deal with difficult conversations that you need to have. I think that's so good for both men and women to see that. What do you love most about being a referee? What keeps you coming back and sticking in and keeping on pushing yourself?
SPEAKER_00:I love that I still get to be part of the game with my injuries. I chose not to pursue college ball. I had offers, but my ankle was like, nope, we're not doing this. I still struggle with it today. I still wear my brace every day when refing. But I love the aspect of nothing ever happens twice, which is why it's so interesting. The fact that I get to be a part of it, I'm still staying fit when I'm doing six games a week. The hourly pay is great. Especially for a college student who only has a couple of hours a day to spare. I can just drive to a site, work a couple of games, and I'm set for the week.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's Chick-fil-A money.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think it's much better than Chick-fil-A money. Chick-fil-A pays like nothing here in Georgia.
SPEAKER_00:Probably like$18 an hour, but actually, the most I've gotten is.
SPEAKER_02:Making the argument to be a referee, something that Wendy's paying$12 an hour where you could be earning$20,$30 an hour as a referee, it's really easy math as a college student. When you're working retail jobs, you never know what your schedule is going to be. When you're a referee, you can set your availability. Okay, I only got this three hours on this Wednesday or Tuesday to do a high school match, or I've got these four hours on a Sunday morning to be able to work two or three games or something in nature. It's flexible, but it also can pay pretty well for the amount of time that you put into it. So I think it's a great college job, fantastic college job.
SPEAKER_00:It is absolutely this is my second year doing it in college. So I love the community that I work with. Everybody here is super nice, which is weird compared to Maryland. Everybody's very Minnesota nice here. It's a really nice change. I also really don't miss the driving. I do not miss driving in Annapolis, Baltimore. I would drive here any day, much bunch of cornfields.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. But there is a thing about Midwest. A lot of people say Wisconsin nice, Minnesota nice. Like it's a thing. It is a thing and it's a wonderful thing. I just wish everyone would be nice at all times, like around a soccer pitch as well. But we know people forget to be themselves when they're around those intense environments. I'll say that. So a couple questions for you here as we wrap things up. What is the best compliment you've ever received on the field, either by a coach, a parent, or a player? What has someone said to you is kind of the best thing you ever heard?
SPEAKER_00:I would have to say this is the best game we've had all season. Thank you for keeping our players safe. That was actually a couple of the compliments that I received in my sections game, which is regional here. It's very weird. They called their ball boys and ball girls Shaggers. I don't know what they call them in Georgia. That was a change for me because I'm also from the East Coast. We've always just called them ball boys and ball girls, but no, they call them Shaggers here.
SPEAKER_02:Well, at least Shagger is a gender neutral. I like that. It's inclusive.
SPEAKER_00:I haven't heard that before, but it was definitely a change for me. But it's the thank you for keeping our players safe. Apparently, this team had lost three players due to injuries and concussions from their previous team. Now, this team ended their season with that game, but nobody was hurt. And it's my job as a referee with safety first. So that made me feel like I did well with my calls. I kept the players safe. I did my due diligence and I did it well.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's awesome. And how would you say refereeing has changed you as a person? You're eight years in now as at being a referee. What has it done for you? How has it affected you? Obviously, you know, you've grown on the pitch, but let's talk about you as a student. Let's talk about you as a future professional out in the world and just a young woman. How has being a referee changed you as a person?
SPEAKER_00:It's made me much better with talking with people and resolving conflict and being in those high pressure situations. It's made me better at coming up with ideas or solutions on the spot. Having to make those quick decisions in game has definitely transferred over to life outside of soccer. I really like the person I am with the experience I've had as a referee.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I love that. That's so cool. What advice would you give to another young woman thinking about becoming a referee? There are millions of young girls who are out there who are playing soccer from eight to 14 years old, but very few of them make a decision to become a referee. So what is advice you'd give to a young woman thinking? And maybe maybe they're like you as a young girl and they're like, they really are stickler for the rules. What advice would you give them?
SPEAKER_00:First of all, if you're a stickler for the rules, come and make money from it. If you already have a general idea of the rules, it's just learning the little niche scenarios that happen and what to do from there. It's really helpful, especially to transfer from refing to still playing soccer. If you're a young referee or a young player who's still might be in the age to play in that under 18 category, it transfers over. I've never gotten a card, and it's because of reffing. I played fullback, I was sliding, tackling, running people over. But I knew the rules and how far to go to not get a card and not foul. And that definitely transfers over. It can help you become a better soccer player and a better person. It just makes everything better.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:No, but I think that's such great advice. And I say this to players all the time. It'll make you a better player. Anytime I get a DM from a goalkeeper asking me about a play, I'll be like, hey, by the way, goalkeepers become great referees.
SPEAKER_00:They have a great view of the field.
SPEAKER_02:They see the game differently. I like you'd be a good honestly, even if they're not asking me about becoming a referee, I'm always selling. I'm like, come on, let's go, people. You'd be a great referee.
SPEAKER_00:Some of my best memories are refing.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. No, I've had amazing, wonderful experiences refing, and I'm so glad that you've made the difficult decision to continue referee. I think it is hard to be a referee. I think it's really hard to be a young female referee for all the things that you've brought up today. The chauvinism, the subtle disrespects that come from being a woman in a male-dominated profession, um, the insults that might come from spectators, especially in challenging environments like high school or semi-professional, the USLW, that get thrown out. And again, there's sometimes little consequence for those awful behaviors. But you're definitely bucking the trend. And I'm so glad that you've done that. I think we are better for it. We're better because you're here, because you're a wonderful person, intelligent and engaged and excited about doing a great job. I'm so glad that you're a referee, but also as a female referee, that it is better for everyone. It's better for the culture of the game in general. It's better for us as referees to have more people like you among our group. So again, Mia, thank you so much for spending your time today to talk to us. I definitely learned and I'm so excited to get to know you better. And I hope the people listening to this podcast think differently when they meet another young female referee colleague, how they might treat her, how they might support her, and also make sure that they get respect from everyone else around the game. Thank you so much for all that you've done and all that you're gonna do.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_02:I hope everyone out there really enjoyed today's podcast. Please continue supporting the Refs Need Love Store online. Everything that's purchased there goes back into making this channel and this platform possible. Mia and I were joking about the fact that she's got one lamp in front of her computer. I've got five different lights around it. So please support the online store. We're coming up on the holiday soon. It's October right now. Maybe you need to invest in a new pair of flags. I just got some cool buzzer flags. I'm out of stock. They sold out quick, but I'll get more soon. Please, it all goes back into this program to make it possible so we can shine lights. I'm wonderful referees like Diaz. Love you all. I appreciate you. You are not alone out there, and I hope your next match is right.