REFS NEED LOVE TOO
An honest perspective from the 3rd team on the pitch... the referees. Through humor, analysis and education, we are slowly changing how people view referees and officials in all sports. We care and have a love for the game as much as any player or coach. Sometimes even more. Youth soccer (proper football) is a multi-billion $ industry in the US. Tremendous money is spent on players, competitions, travel etc., but almost nothing spent on developing the next generation of referees. I hope that this Podcast inspires, educates and humanizes the next generation of referees for their own development and appreciation from the players, coaches and spectators they need to work alongside.
REFS NEED LOVE TOO
Saving Grassroots Soccer Through Referee Support with The Referee Advocates
We sat down with Daneen Gonçalves, founder and chief visionary officer of The Referee Advocates, to unpack a simple idea with massive impact: treat referees like an integral and supported part of your club, build clear development pathways and watch the entire matchday experience improve. Danine brings decades as a player, coach, official and leadership professional, and she’s using that experience to help clubs become great places for referees to work and grow.
We dig into the broken parts of the system—referees thrown into games they’re not ready for, clubs that see assigning as a checkbox, and a lack of mentorship that leaves kids isolated. Daneen outlines TRA’s answer: partner directly with clubs to set standards for sideline behavior, fund mentoring, and match officials to appropriate levels. We explore a cohort model with Google Classroom, on-field scrimmage reps, and weekend tournament learning that turns shaky confidence into steady game management. There’s also a powerful mental health piece: training teens to regulate after mistakes and coaching parents on what real support looks like after tough matches.
Expect practical takeaways for directors of coaching, assigners, and parents. Learn how a few dollars per game can support mentors, how presence on the touchline quiets volatility, and why data and feedback loops help everyone focus on quality. We also share clinic insights—from ceremonial free kicks to communication that keeps play fair and safe. If you care about retention, safer fields, and cleaner soccer, this conversation is your blueprint for change.
Enjoyed the episode? Follow, share with your club leadership, and leave a review to help more people find the show. Let’s build a culture where referees thrive and the game gets better for everyone.
And of course we're having people quit. Of course, people are not getting certified because they're like, I'm not worth it. I got better things to do with my time. And that's the stream that we're swimming up against. We're really trying to fight that because we want to make sure people are having a good experience. We want them to be able to tap into the magic of the role of the referee.
SPEAKER_00:We've got an amazing show for you today. Honestly, I was bummed that the conversation I had with Danine from the referee advocates ended at like 50 minutes. I mean, seriously, this woman and her organization are doing some truly transformative stuff in their neck of the woods. And I think everyone, if they were doing it, would have massive impacts for grassroots soccer. Please, please, please make sure you listen to this whole episode. You will not be sorry. The second thing I just want to say is I had a great day today. I went to our local Georgia Soccer Grassroots Advanced Referee Clinic, and this is a place they do the fitness tests in the morning, and then they do like usually a four or five hour clinic after that for regional referees, national referees, and then people who want to become regional and national referees and have a desire someday to go professional. It's a really impressive group of people. Unfortunately, there were tons of end-of-season tournaments going on this weekend. So there were only about 45 people there. Last year we had about a hundred. And I understand a lot of assigners around town were like really bitter that this was going on because this is where all the great referees were in our state. They were with me, which was a lot of fun. We did some really cool things today. We definitely spent a lot of time talking about game management. We did a lot of time trying to impress upon the people in the room to hopefully have them become mentors because we want to see more people, especially young people, becoming mentors. I mean, yeah, I can have an impact as a 50-year-old talking to a 14, 15-year-old person, but man, if you're 17, 18, 19, 20 years old and you're aspiring to be, you know, a regional referee or early regional referee, my gosh, your impact on that 13, 14, 15-year-old is gonna be tremendous. Absolutely fantastic. So we want more of that to happen. We also did a lot on game management in the classroom and then went out to the pitch. I will tell you, the best part of the day was working on ceremonial free kicks. I mean, it's just nothing that I've ever been like taught how to do. I mean, you watch people on TV and you think you know what's going on, but man, we had our referees, they put on bibs like pennies, and they were acting like attackers and defenders, and they were like constantly moving the ball after you put the you put the ball down for the kick, and then there was like pushing off the play, and they were like trying to get into the wall, or they weren't getting back from the ball. I mean, it was so much fun not only to try this out in a safe environment, but learn from an MLS referee about, you know, how to walk off the 10 so you can keep your eye on your assistant referee and keep your eye on the ball, and then what words to say if they start moving the ball or people get into the wall or start messing around. I mean, it was fantastic. So I just have to say, what a wonderful experience. I wish that all referees got to do this. I know I'm lucky to be in this group of quote unquote advanced referees, um, but I wish all grassroots refs had the opportunity to do things like this over the year. And that's, you know, what I'm trying to do with RefC Love2, what I'm trying to do with SoCal Soccer, but we've got to address that other 99%. And I think the referee advocates, what you're gonna hear today, is doing it in their area, which is awesome. Before we jump into the pod, a couple quick notes. Guys, it's the holidays. If you have not got Umpero shoes yet, please get your Umperos. They are fantastic. I love mine. They're lightweight, they're flexible, they give me an amazing grip on the pitch. I mean, again, made and engineered for referees by a referee. Use code refsneed love too and get your 10% off when you buy them at Official Sports. Secondly, I put three brand new holiday theme t-shirts on my store. I added two for Hanukkah this year, and I added a new uh Christmas one, uh, which was kind of funny. It's in that, you know, have you been naughty theme? But I added a I got the ball player on it too, which is kind of fun. I think you're gonna dig it. Uh, the last note, the rare bit buzzer flags. I sold out when I put them on my store within literally like 12 hours. I'm not kidding. 10 sets, 12 hours, gone. I've got 25 more sets that should be here late next week, right before Thanksgiving. Watch my channel because I'm telling you, once I put them on the store, they will sell like immediately and they'll be gone. And I'm not getting any more in until January. So if you want it as a holiday gift, you want a nice tax write-off before the end of the year, check them out. It is by far the best flag you've ever held. The grip is amazing and it's got the buzzer, you know, and receiver capability, which is fantastic. Check them out. You're gonna love them. All right, now it's time for the show, and I think you're gonna love this conversation with the referee advocates. Hello and welcome to the RefSneed Love2 Podcast, a show that gives you a real, raw, and behind-the-scenes view of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch, the referee. I'm your host, David Gerson, a grassroots referee and certified mentor with over 11 years of experience and over 1,300 matches under my belt. You can find me at refsneedlove2.com on Instagram, on TikTok, and now on YouTube. Today's guest is Dane Gonçalves. Today, Danine has been part of the U.S. soccer community for over 30 years as a player, coach, referee, and leader. She played collegiate soccer as a goalkeeper. What's up, goalkeeper union, at both Division I, North Dakota State and Division II, St. Cloud State, before going on to coach, officiate, and take on leadership roles in multiple soccer organizations. Professionally, Danine is a seasoned leadership coach and social impact leader with two decades of experience designing training pathways, building feedback systems, and shaping organizational culture. She is also the founder and chief visionary officer, which by the way, I love that title, of the referee advocates, TRA, an organization dedicated to building sustainable referee pools through advocacy, mentorship, and development. Through TRA, she is leading innovative initiatives that support referees, elevate game-day experiences, empower under representative voices in officiating, especially women and girls near and dear to this pod's heart. Danine brings a unique perspective that blends her experience as an athlete coach, administrator, and leadership professional. And she's here to share why referees matter and why supporting them changes the game for better and how TRA is helping create stronger communities through sport. Danine, welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, thank you. I'm so excited to finally be here. We've been following you for a very long time on Instagram and just love the space that you're creating for referees. And I'm excited for this conversation today.
SPEAKER_00:We are fighting the same fight. I will tell you that. I'm outrageously impressed with all the things that I've seen about TRA, and I've been a follower of yours for a long time. And I know we've been trying to get this hooked up. I'm so glad that we finally have made the time to do this. You're really busy. I'm seeing all the work that you're doing online, and I follow you on social media, and I've spent a lot of time on your website. But for those who don't know, can you just try and help people understand what is the referee advocates? Like it's is it a is it just an online platform? Are you a blog? Are you a referee association? Are you an assigner? What are you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, thanks for asking that question. I can understand the confusion, right? There's a lot of different pieces and roles within this landscape. So essentially, we're a referee management organization and we partner directly with clubs to help them understand what referees need for their particular game days at home. And so we understand that the referee plays a significant role and that they are also independent contractors, right? And so they get to choose where they want to work. And so we help position clubs to be a better workforce or workplace for referees where referees want to work and they want to feel supported and they're there to grow because we work mainly in the youth space, which is where a lot of that development comes from.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my gosh. I I so I've never heard of this type of organization like this because there are referee associations like in Southern California, where I currently work now, and we have a couple here in Georgia, but mainly their job is to assign referee. That's what they do. And they work with clubs, maybe a little bit, but it's really to assign referees. And let's be honest, and they help them get supplemental reports in. It's it doesn't go as far as the club work, which is really interesting. But before we get deeper into that, so how did this begin? Like, how did you like what kicked you off? Like got gave you the catalyst. Like, I gotta start this, I gotta make this thing that has does not even exist out there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's right. So if you would have asked me when I was playing, like where you're gonna be, how is soccer going to show up in your life later on in life, right? I never would have thought I would have ended up in a referee space. So I started when I became a mom. So I was coaching after college, still playing, but I became a mom, and I could not dedicate my nights anymore to being out on the field. But I wanted soccer to continue to be a part of who I am and what I do and how I show up in the community. By having stance, I ended up being a referee assigner because I had two requirements that I really needed. One, can I do it virtually? Two, can I do it generally when I want to? And so it met that criteria. And I signed up, God certified, did my thing. It was game officials at the time, diving into that whole platform. And I learned very quickly how under-resourced the referee community was. And quite frankly, I was appalled by that, knowing that I had soccer as a part of my life and grown up in that and played in college, that I didn't realize how neglected that community was. And that didn't sit well with me. And in true Danine fashion, if I find something that's we're not doing much about this, and I have an idea and a solution, and I want to lean into that and work through it, trial and error. Let's figure out how we can best suit a solution. That's when I started to do that and work with the clubs and figure out where their holes were, where were they struggling? What was their perspective about referees and how are they bringing that lens to their schedules or their games or their coaches or their staff and their players, all of that? We really built an understanding of it. And then, of course, launched the referee advocates because we felt like the resources that we had didn't need to live with just one club. We really wanted to scale it because the need was there, which was pretty significant.
SPEAKER_00:You mentioned specifically the gap. I can you talk a little bit more about this? You went to the clubs, which is interesting. I gotta be honest. I think there's a lot of feelings that everything has to happen through U.S. soccer, through the state referee associations. You went to the people in the community who are, you know, interacting with the referees, right? They're coaches, their players, their spectators, their club administrators. They have the fields that these players are going to be at. And you went straight to them. What it did they see the gap? Did they see their role in the process of what they could do? What were they missing? I'm so curious about these conversations about going directly to the clubs and as an assigner and helping them figure out what referees need and what action to take.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And so traditionally, right, as an assigner moving into that role, I was tasked with getting referees to their games. And that they had to pay me for that, right? I'm a contractor and I am USSF certified as an assigner and moving in and doing that. And that was about the extent of their knowledge that they needed an assigner. I was certified, I'm gonna get referees to you. But it was essentially, and I hate to say this because they're people, referees are people, like that's an important part. But it was almost like an off-the-shelf service. Like referees just show up, do your game, and then they disappear. And unless you truly know and you get certified and you're a part of that system, then you really think that they just show up and they go. And then that, which also didn't sit well with me, is like you can then set up an environment where you don't really treat them like real humans, right? They're just there. And there's real, like there's no real consequences when you are not treating them well, or you're like questioning every call, or you don't realize that actually that's a 14-year-old there that has gone through a tough time trying to get certified and get confident enough to walk out onto that field. And so those perspectives was the gap that was missing. And I eroded that pretty quickly to try and connect them to this is a really important part of the game that we're missing completely.
SPEAKER_00:So talk to me a little bit about I am still so fascinated about the club part of this. So one of the things that I saw on your website, and I'm sorry if we're going just out of order here or something, nature, but you have referees who are your the referee advocates, TRA referees, but then you also have clubs who are referee advocate clubs, and you work with them about their professionalism and how they treat people and things like that. Can you talk to me about the work you do specifically with the clubs? We're gonna talk about the referee development in a second, but I'm still so fascinated about how you go to a club, help them understand how big of an issue it is for these referees who are coming there as quote unquote independent contractors at 13, 14 years old. But what are the what's the work you do with the clubs to turn them into a place where this is a place referees actually will want to be able to work and have an opportunity even to learn and grow?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, the first step is usually helping them understand that referees are probably coming from their community. And chances are they're probably players and parents that are registering for their community. And so they have some responsibility to just be aware of what that process looks like. Then we go obviously further into welcoming them into that layer of the community where it's well, you really do have a role in this game day experience and what that looks like. So from the game day experience, we are working with the coaches, we're working with the staff, we're working with parents on helping them understand how we're implementing a referee development model that shows them that referees need time on the field to develop, similarly to players need time on the field to grow. And so referees' experience of being in the game, that is development. And they're not gonna get a hundred percent of the calls. And in fact, that's impossible to get all of these calls right. And so just learning how to have some empathy in the process, know that these people are a part of your community, whether you see them again or not, right? And that's an important piece again of the game. And then also there's a piece of this that we continue to advocate for is the funding and the resources needed to be able to create these systems that are sustainable, that isn't just a grant and then the grant runs out. Like this is integrated into your model of what you offer as an experience for your families.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, this is this is the this is the big question, right? Because I think the referee is always considered to be an externality. No one seems to be responsible for their training and development. Again, the state associations are all cast-strapped, and they got volunteers and they don't have the time. And the assigner historically has just been, well, I'm gonna make sure I get someone who covers the game. I'm gonna get a body on the game. And the club is just like, I want to play. I'm focused on players and developing my players and my coaches, and that's what I'm focused on. But you're talking about really important putting money behind training and development for referees, and maybe it is for the counseling and work that they're doing for the coaches and for the players and for the parents. So, do clubs who work with TRA, I'm gonna, it's a very straight question here, but do they pay additional fees or a premium beyond maybe what a normal run-of-the-mill assigner is to be able to work with your organization?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, they do. And we're very upfront with it. Yes, we are very upfront with it. And not every club is gonna be willing to pay that. And that's fine because they can get an assigner that is just is doing the transactional assigning work that we used to do. I understand that. And that we're not for everybody, but we are for those that want to make a change and want to shift the culture and how they want to actually have a better game day, and not only a better game day, but doing it through referee quality. Because if you want quality out there, you have to invest. You absolutely have to put money forward. And I guarantee that if those that are like listening to this and are like, huh, I wonder how this could work in our community, ask your parents and ask your families. What would they be willing to pitch in? Because quite honestly, it is a minimal amount in comparison to how much money they put in their child's training, their child's coaching experience, their child's team experience. It is very minimal. Even just a small amount can make a significant impact on the referee community and game day and just the referee experience.
SPEAKER_00:I could not agree more. And one thing I know you're a big believer, I'm a big believer on, is if you've got quality officials on the match who have been trained, developed, supportive, get feedback, feel confident out there, you're gonna have better soccer on the pitch and it's gonna be a safer environment on the pitch. It's gonna be a better game day experience for all. Now, you may leave the match being unhappy because your team lost, and maybe you don't agree with the decision there, but it's going to be essentially better-looking soccer out there. It's not gonna be a wrestling match the entire game. It's not gonna end in a bunch of fist fights. If you have a good referee out there who can do the game management and identify fouls and actually make calls, clearly everyone knows what's going on. It is a better experience for everyone. And I think it is something worth investing in. And it's not$10,000 a year per family. We're talking about a couple bucks, maybe a game, to really dramatically change the experience for everyone there, starting with the referee in the middle of the pitch. So I love that. It doesn't have to break the bank. And trust me, I'm in, I'm sold, Danine. We're doing this.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yes. And you know what's interesting too as you're speaking about that, like we have a responsibility, right? Especially in youth sports, to work on giving the game back to the kids. And part of the game is mistakes are gonna happen. And we know that from the player perspective. We know that from the coach's perspective. And we want to be able to bring in a bit of grace in that process because we have to understand that when mistakes happen, there's an opportunity to learn. But if we're constantly addressing and correcting those mistakes, literally every time someone makes it, including the referee, we're totally stealing that learning process away from the kids. And I truly believe that competitive sports can give a really unique opportunity for kids to be able to learn real life skills if we could just get out of the way.
SPEAKER_00:A thousand percent. For my own kids, I've always told them that again, the we learn so much through the losses, too. You know, they're not, it's not necessarily a bad thing. Grit and resilience, and there's so many speakers out these days that are bestsellers that are talking about this, is again, having and learning from loss and learning to push through loss and learning to push through no and learning to push through disappointment and failure is what makes a successful, healthy individual. If you're constantly shielding from that and you're blaming someone else, or you're not accepting that maybe they lost, or that someone can make a mistake, it's really a dangerous thing for our kids. You're cheating them from important lessons. I'd love to ask you a couple of questions about some of the practical ways that you support and develop and train referees. So, first, what are some of the most common challenges that you see with our referees, or what are some of the common challenges that referees come to you with?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So most of our referees are kids, quite honestly. About 80 to 85% of them are under the age of 18. And so if we think about the nature of kids these days, they need more opportunities to connect with each other and confidence in leaning into your peers and having conversations and asking perspective and thoughts and advice on things is one of the things that we see often. So we create that community, right? We build that sort of network of we're doing this together. We're doing something hard together because let's face it, being an official is not easy. You had mentioned that at the opening of this podcast, where it's just it's one of the most challenging parts of the game because you really have to uphold the laws of the game in an incredibly gray game, right? It's not black and white. These are black and white laws, but applying them are gray. And so that can be incredibly intimidating for a majority of our referees, specifically the new ones. But then as we get through, and the ones that have been in it for a little while, they struggle with more of just like the nuanced application of the laws of the game. And so we like to bring in our mentors, our experienced referees that are really supporting them and working with them on the games so they can model what it is that we're looking for in professionalism and applying the laws.
SPEAKER_00:I love that. The community thing is so huge. Again, this whole idea of being an independent contractor, there are many times a teenager will show up to the pitch. I'll get someone who shows up to my game. Again, I'm over 50 years old. Maybe there'll be another person who's over 40 years old. And then we have a 13, 14-year-old referee who's out there with us. And hey, we do everything we can to make them feel, you know, supported and respected. And hey, don't worry, we're gonna have a great time, things of that nature, but hard to identify with someone who was born before their parents were born. And so I think this whole idea of creating community of again, the 13, 14, 15, 16-year-old kids, I'm gonna call them what they are, their children, an opportunity to connect with each other, right? And be able to see each other ask questions and see each other maybe struggle with the same things, but also be able to reference, say, mentor who doesn't have to be 50, who could be 18, who's 19, whatever, it's just been through a number of years. It helps them feel accepted and a part of something. And that's a really big deal to a teenager, is to feel you're part of a community is big. And you know not only the referee community, but feel a part that when they go to the club, they're treated as a participant, you know, that they're not the enemy, that the spectators treat them with respect. They're not the enemy, I think it's amazing. That's so huge, so huge. What about beyond when they come to your fields? And I do want to ask this question. So you mentioned the majority of your referees are teenagers. Okay. So what level of games generally are people in your programs working? Are these recreational matches? Are these academy matches? Are there some of the big alphabets, the ECNL and MLS Next? What's the majority of the type of thing that these referees are working on?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And so we're generally with grassroots, right? We are working with rec programs and we do have some higher leagues that we pull in to our club games. But mainly the one of the key things that we do too, because it's important that we're matching the right referee with the right game. Again, we're not just filling spots. There are assigners that can go fill spots, and that's what they do, right? For us, we make sure what we know our referees. So we actually level them based on their age experience and preference in our assigning system. And then we level our games. So we'll match them, right? And we'll make sure there's a ceiling for our youngsters or for those that are inexperienced. And I will also say the adults as well. So we have a we're starting to see an uptick of more adults getting certified. And just because they're adults doesn't mean they should be doing a U17 center. Right. Like it's just not, but they can because those opportunities are there. So we work with them very closely to say, hey, we actually want you to be working on those younger, lower level games so you can just get a sense for what it's like to be out there, how what it means to blow your whistle, what happens when you make the wrong call, how do you position yourself, how do you engage with the players and the coaches, right? You got to learn that at the younger ages in order to really develop. And so that's our model of development is we're making sure that we're matching the referees with the right games. And our clubs know that, right? Because we may have a game that we don't have, we have young or inexperienced referees available, but the caliber of game that is necessary isn't actually matching them. And we will tell our clubs we can't find a quality crew for this. We're gonna have to look at a different date to be able to do that. And we built that rapport with them where they understand that we are not gonna send a referee out there just because they're available and quote unquote eligible. It's not gonna work. It's not what's good for retention.
SPEAKER_00:You mean available and a warm body?
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:How many times have we seen kids, literally kids thrown out into the wilderness and the wolves from a game that is well beyond them? Yes, which is preposterous, right?
SPEAKER_01:Like that, just you think about that in any other industry, and you're putting somebody in there just like throwing them to the wolves, and it's and it really is an intense environment. And we don't need to talk about all the details for why this is a boiling pot, but because we could probably visualize it. But we're literally throwing inexperienced people into the pit and okay, good luck. And of course we're having people quit. Of course, people are not getting certified because they're like, I not worth it. I got better things to do with my time. And that's the stream that we're swimming up against. We're really trying to fight that because we want to make sure people are having a good experience. We want them to be able to tap into the magic of the role of the referee, grace and confidence while you're out there and learning how to really move in this position so you can affect the game and that you will come back and you find joy in it and make some decent money if you could stick with it.
SPEAKER_00:I hear that. I have a question about the training and development that you do. What is the balance between online learning? Is it like stoplight, like you're texting them things? They've got to do reading. Is it like in-person training that you're doing, mentoring while people are roughing? What is the how do you get this development to the referees? Is I guess my main question.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, our first go-to is just to be out there, right? Now, obviously, I can't like replicate myself over and over again, but I can work with people that really want to make sure that they're out there giving back. So we do hire mentors. We also have referee trainers that run our own trainings, typically in the offseason, although sometimes we will have them during the season or kind of butting up against a tournament, um, where they're out there walking them through. If our clubs have scrimmages, we often use those as training opportunities where we have our mentors and our trainers out there. Younger, inexperienced referees are shadowing them. So if they're going through and then eventually they'll turn, right? Where then so the mentor will lead, the younger referee will follow, and then they'll turn. And then the inexperienced referee will be there while the mentor is supporting them. So it's a little less scary, right? When you're out there. So that's our first go-to. Right now, what we are developing, which is we've piloted it over the past two years, uh, which is a cohort model for referees that's led by a cohort lead, which essentially in the player development model, you would say, Oh, there's a coach and then a team. We're a referee coach, which I know it's not USSF certified referee coach. I know that's a whole nother title, right? But essentially this cohort lead, an experienced certified mentor that is supporting a team of 10 to 12 referees that is walking through an online curriculum. So we are using Google Classroom. So it's literally like a you're working through these stages, um, and then you are working these scrimmages, and then we want you to work games together and yield feedback from your cohort lead. We also encourage them to work tournaments together so they can have that full experience over the weekend and just get to know their cohort members and the learning piece of that. So that is one part that we're building out this year. Super excited to launch it. That beyond just the youth, we're actually pulling in some elite cohorts as well as adult cohorts too.
SPEAKER_00:Danina, I have literally as you talk, I have 40 different questions that jump into my mind because I want you to go everywhere and do this in every part of the country and take over the world. But I'm gonna ask, so how big are you guys? Are I know again we talked about you being in Minnesota, if I'm not mistaken? Are you in a small part of Minnesota? Are you working across the whole state now? Do you have plans to go further? Yeah, talk to me. How many refs are in the referee advocates right now? Yeah. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, I'm totally fine with sharing. In the grand scheme of things, we're little, we're tiny. And I do that intentionally too, because I don't want to grow too fast. You know, I have a feeling once the floodgates open and we're able to like really figure out a way to scale this while also keeping quality. So I know I've said this before, like it's really important to me to make sure that referee quality is at the center and the heart of what we do. And so I don't want to grow too fast too soon. So we're in the metro, like the Minneapolis-St. Paul area, and right now about 6,000 games, and we've got that's from rec all the way to that over a season or a weekend, no over a season or a weekend. No, it's actually over a year, so like we're little in that sense. Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my gosh, can you I just uh my my world is so weird now working for SoCal soccer because we do 3,500 games a weekend, yeah, a weekend insanity. So Southern California is a whole different world, so that's why when you say 6,000, I was like, wow, 6,000. Like I just gotta check over a year, got it, makes sense, okay. Yes, okay. But it keeps the it's something now that you can manage and be personally a part of the journey and know who your mentors are because that's the big concern, right? There's everyone wants to develop referees, but you can't just take anyone to go out and work with anyone, right? Like you have to make sure that the this person is trained, they know how to give feedback, they know the words to use. Use the questions. They're not going to overwhelm someone. They're going to make people feel welcome. They're going to make them feel supported. It's not breaking them all the way down, then building them all the way up. Come on. It's not the Marines. It does have to be handled uh gently. And there is no existing model. So what you're doing is really groundbreaking stuff. That's why I'm like, my gosh, can we go further, faster people?
SPEAKER_01:I love that you're asking that question because that is something that absolutely I'm aware of. The need is there.
SPEAKER_00:And I had other clubs to come ask to come.
SPEAKER_01:What's so interesting is that I founded TRA based on a need, not necessarily based on a market desire. That makes sense. And so I'm starting to see now as we are truly proving concept, as we have clear impact data, as we have like more referees leaning in, higher retention rate, right? Something that we've been we knew all along was going to happen, but now we actually have the path, right, that we've built that it's actually like people are now starting to realize oh, if we make this small investment, so to go back to what we were talking about earlier, the small, teeny investment with such a significant impact, it's a no-brainer. Like it just, of course, this makes sense. Of course, this is something that we want to do. And it's not as hard as we think it is.
SPEAKER_00:So tell me a little bit about the data side of it. Okay. So you said you're measuring. So you're measuring retention rates amongst your referees who get certified, how many recertify, which is wonderful because there are massive turnover rates all across the country of referees. Massive. We know the big quoted one of the 80% don't make it three years. In my state of Georgia, we lost over 80% who's certified in 2024 that didn't come back for 2025. I know we lose about 1,700 referees a year in Cal South. I don't know the exact amount of how many that is from the new research, but I think our numbers are going down, not up. We're not growing. We're losing referees right now, which is really scary. But do you go to the clubs, do you give them surveys or do you get any data or information or feedback from them to see if they're seeing a difference, if they're seeing a change?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. We and right now we're working on more of a quantitative survey, right? So we're very much into the qualitative, like how are things going? Perspective, right? And so that's important because that informs how it is we do what we do. But when it comes to those key measures, right, we're working on that. We're not saying that we've cracked that nut, but we do have systems in place currently that help us gauge where things are at, right? We've got very good relationships with the directors of coaching that oversee all of the coaches that that really are the eyes out there, right? We're not asking them to evaluate the officials, but we are asking them to keep a good eye on what you're seeing out there, right? If you're seeing a fantastic official, let us know. If you're seeing a clearly struggling, because you understand that this is a part of the development process, they're usually coming to us with an empathetic tone in their complaints, right? They're not actually complaining, they're informing what it is that we would like to know out there. So to go back to the scalability part of that, no, we can't replicate a bunch of mentors because we need more referees to have more experience and willingness to give back. They're not there right now. So we have to use what we've got. And coaches are our eyes out there, and especially if they understand the development model that we're working towards and that they're seeing a change in the quality of their game. And they absolutely are. One way to measure that is how many incidents do we have, right? And less as we're continuing to do more and lean into more of our presence on the field. Maybe you've done this too. I'm sure actually, I'm sure you've done this, right? Where you are on this, and all of a sudden the sidelines are quiet. No one's saying anything to the referee because you're standing there. So it's interesting, kind of like thinking about that process.
SPEAKER_00:It is funny. So, like there's a couple things about just the sidelines. Like, I think every sideline should have a ref referee whisperer. There should be some parent who goes out to get certified in referees. Because when my kids were playing, there were so many parents who would be like, Was that offside? I was like, Yeah, definitely. It was like, what was that call over there? It was all he saw the poll. I think he was calling a pullback there. He was playing advantage, something like that. And everyone's like, Oh, okay, great. And it just helps people. I think that's one thing. But certainly if there's a mentor on the sideline wearing a shirt that says mentor or something like that, people change, coaches change. It's a big deal. So, yes, having a presence at the fields changes things, whether it's in an official capacity or not. One question I do have for you, just on the feedback, and it's something that we've been playing with at SoCal Soccer. Are you open or considering feedback forms, both for the coaches and for the referees? So that the referees can rate the environment that they were in. And the coaches, were they speaking in a friendly tone? Did they create a good sporting environment? But also for the coaches. Now we all know, hey, listen, a winning coach is probably going to give better scores than a losing coach. We could have the scores on there as well. And if someone's complaining every game, maybe it's them and not the referee. But I I think it, I think there's an opportunity where we could get some feedback both ways that would help on a developmental world from just a developmental perspective. I don't know. Have you considered feedback forms? I guess is the question.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, absolutely. We have tried a couple variations of that from the referee side. And I will be honest, it's a little challenging in that, like, we're still working with them to like submit this course. Like, quite honestly, that's that is something like, come on, come on, guys, we gotta do it. You know what I mean? This is a part of your job, right? And so, okay, that's also incorporated into our training of professionalism, right? Yes, you're an independent contractor, but you gotta do your job, right? And so we have tried to layer on that extra step, right? And also position it where it's like, hey guys, this is your voice, right? If you really want to see things change, you've got to be a part of that, and we need to hear you. It's no accident that we've called ourselves the referee advocates, but we need voices to advocate for. And so this feedback is important. We do sometimes get it informally, right? If something like real, they will absolutely reach out to us and let us know. And sometimes we'll have spectators let us know too, if the referee doesn't speak up. So there is a bit of soft accountability, I will call that. But we do have a game feedback form for our coaches and for our parents and managers if they want to use that. And quite honestly, the energy behind that is a bit different than the referees, is that you have to have an outlet. I'm a firm believer in what the sidelines, of course, they're gonna be upset, and especially because they're like, they're probably seeing that no one's doing anything about this. Like, where is the accountability on the referee side? And not necessarily the referee out there, but the referee community, right? Because they have no idea to go back, right? That's one of those. And so we have that game feedback form so that people feel like they have an outlet. And hopefully that outlet they can go to instead of directly to the referee. So that it's oh, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:I think that is so important is having a process set up. And I think we need to do better on that in SoCal Soccer and in formalizing the outlet. Right now, we have them go to the coach and the DOC who works with the league and the assigner. I think it probably needs to be a form that's structured, and again, we're having certain people fill it out. I because generally what we find is that the I would say I don't want to, I'm not trying to throw any stones or anything, but I we have found oftentimes we will get a complaint about a referee because there's a player, coach, or parent who has been set off. And then they want to somehow create some story about the referee acting irrationally or making ridiculous calls, and then you get the video and you're like, oh my god, seriously. So we do want someone who's got some semblance of subjectivity, not subject, objectivity to it, who also understands what we're looking for in terms of do we need to work with them on their presence? Do we need to work with them on their foul recognition? Do we need to work with them on their movement and their effort on the pitch? What type what would be a positive thing? I think again, just complaint to get a complaint. I didn't like someone didn't call a foul. That's not helpful. So it definitely needs to be structured, and we need to be getting it from people who have watched many matches at a high enough level to understand. But yeah, feedback, channeling feedback, and I like that you've got the form is a good thing. I do have a question for you, Danine. How about the refs? So, first off, how long have you been doing this? And do you have any stories now where you've put referees in this program, they were really struggling or really timid, or they just got certified, didn't look like it was gonna work, and now they're thriving and they're engaged. Can you give us any some stories or some content and give us an idea how long this has been going?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. Ref assigning started for me in 2014. Uh, we know your vet. Apparently now, time flies. My goodness feels like just but my kiddo, the one that made me a mom, he just turned 12 this past week, which he's actually a good segue into the story. So he is a junior referee in our program. So we do work with 11 and 12 year olds that do rec. And I can't tell you how special it is to have your own child who has seen you through the ringer. I'll be honest, like, there were so many times where I wanted to give up. I was like, this, I could choose any other industry, quite honestly. Like, why would I choose this one? You know what I mean? This is not great. So hard. I could choose easy, but continue to choose hard. And so my son, as he was growing up, right, and watching me go through that and now experiencing our training program and our support and the opportunity to make some money while he's developing leadership skills and authority and a better understanding of the game and better connection with his buddies because he brought them along with him. All of that is really built into the experience that we offer. And quite honestly, I don't know if he's gonna stay with doing it forever, but he did mention to me the other day, he's like, Mom, I can't wait till I'm 13, so I can ref with you. And I'm like, oh my mama heart was just like, Yes, please, like that, absolutely. I would love to do that. I would love to do that with him. So he's just one story, obviously, one that's very close to my heart. But we do have a handful of others that have gone through it, have wanted to quit. We were there to coach them through the process, often through something that happened where it's just like that pit in your stomach, right? Where you're like, I don't want to do this again. I could choose easy, I could do something else. And we're coaching them through that and they work through it. And now I'm thinking of one particular family. It's actually a set of twins who are in college right now, they're engineers, and they decided to continue refing throughout, and they're doing so well. But there were so many times where they wanted to quit. And I was on the phone with mom, hey, this is what we can do. Let's have them talk to our trainers. We'll be out there at the next game. Let's just take it one game at a time, you know, like not we don't have to take off too much. Let's just focus on what we can do next. And it's cool now seeing them that they've made it through.
SPEAKER_00:I have so many things to say about that. First and foremost, so I got to ref with my son when he was 10. He used to be able to get certified at 10 and we were on the same crew together. So to see him grow into a young man, young boy, and then young man on that field in these very intense environments is unbelievably gratifying. You feel so much pride. But also, I know how much it did for him and how much grit and resilience he has now, and how he's become a leader and speaker, and it's wonderful to see. But the the you mentioned this one thing about the you could choose easy. And that's a thing. Like refereeing is not easy. It's actually difficult. It's one of the things that I love most about being a referee is that I'll never be perfect. Ever. There's never a time you're going to be perfect, or at least not perfect in someone else's eyes. Whether it's a player or a coach or a spectator, they're always going to think the call should have been something else, whatever. You can constantly keep on improving and I lose myself in it. I think that's what I get out of it is that I always have to work on my fitness because I'm old now. And I'm always having to work on my positioning and movement. I'm always having to work on my foul recognition and my game management. And that's why I like it. Yeah, I could easily just sit on my couch and watch Premier League every weekend. I could. And there's a lot of other things I can do in my life. I don't need the money, but I choose something that is difficult and challenging because I find it very rewarding and gratifying. How do you get kids, you know, who, you know, let's be honest. Like I'm an old, grizzled, vet, gray hair person. And so I'm choosing to do this because I want this challenge in my life. But kids, they've got a lot of stresses. They've got schoolwork, they've got trying to make friends as a tween, which is not easy. How do you get them to choose something that's not easy? I'm actually sincerely curious about that. For that age group, how do you keep them doing something that's hard?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So, first of all, my background is in teaching. So I was a Montessori teacher before I turned into a leadership trainer. So I get kids and I also get their parents. And so I actually see that as a partnership. So when I'm speaking to a young referee, I know that I'm also speaking to their parents, whether or not they are there in the moment, right? Because they are the ones that are receiving often the sort of like stress or the experience after a game in the car or all of that. They're releasing that. And so parents actually are a wonderful partner in this process if they understand that this is going to be hard, that your child is going to experience some sort of issues running through. Something's going to come up. So we teach them in a twofold. So we're walking kids through what happens when you are dysregulated, right? What happens in your body when you make a bad call or you make you know something you're not sure what call to make and you freeze, right? Your nervous system is off. And so what can you do to bring your nervous system back so you can continue the game and access that developing prefrontal cortex so you can make the next decision, right? And so we actually coach them through that process. And we found as we started to do that about two years ago, that they are more able to dive into more challenging situations. So that's one part. There's another part that we added to, which is actually training the parents on what their kid is going to experience. So we've partnered with Alina Health to help us with that piece, to help with understanding mental health, what to look for when things get really challenging, and what is like within a normal range so that they grow. Right. And we help parents understand that. And as soon as they understand that perspective, they understand their role in helping their kid really connect to this opportunity more meaningfully.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my gosh. Deneen, thank you so much for what you're doing. My luck. I'm sitting there, my heart is like, oh my gosh, she gets it. She understands. Thank you so much. I think honestly, the mental health side of being a referee is it's not, it's not a thing. Like there may be one or two minutes that might be devoted to it in the US online certification that people are just trying to breeze through anyway. And then again, you're thrown out there by yourself and it's all learn on the job. And then people go home and no one's there for them, generally speaking. I love that you're working not only with the kids and trying to vision this, to think that what might happen and then how might we deal with this, but also to prepare the parents as well. That, yeah, there's going to be days where your child is going to come home and they're going to be upset. And someone may have yelled at them and someone may have told them that they did a bad job and they're going to be upset about that. Here's what you need to know about that. And here's how you can help support them through that time. That is powerful. Cause I would bet the overwhelming majority of the new referees that we lose because they don't have that support. They have no one to talk to, their friends don't understand, their parents don't understand, they don't have the tools yet to understand, and they feel alone and attacked and scared, and just like, why am I going to do this? I don't have to do this. I can, I'll do something else. I'll figure something else out. Whatever. I don't need this at this point in my life. And they just quit. They're gone. And then we lose someone who can be a great referee and a great ambassador of the game and a part of the game, which would be so wonderful.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Deneen, I have a question for you. Okay. If every coach, every player, every parent could hear one message from you, what would it be?
SPEAKER_01:Let's bring the human part of it. The human part of a game that actually can give us so much if we just see each other, right? We know our roles, we know why we're there. Can we just see that we have this opportunity to create a really cool environment specifically for youth? But we can go all the way to pros too. Like we just see each other. Like we're human, right? We're not robots. We're not gonna 100% get it right. And what happens when we get it wrong? How do we treat each other?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Wouldn't that be nice? Treat a humans like humans from their community, right? Who care as much as the about the game as much as they do? Yeah. It's a big one. So where so talk to me about future for you? Where is the referee advocates three to five years from right from now? And right now you're in Minneapolis, St. Paul, again, about 6,000 games a year. Where do you see yourself three to five years from now?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I would love for us to reach more clubs and reach more communities. Obviously, we're in Minnesota right now, having quite a few conversations with people around the country, including yourself. The interest is there. And I think we're it gets sticky is how does this work? So I know we had talked about very early on in this conversation of just you're not an association, you're not an SRC, you're not it's no, we actually are like the glue in between it all. Like we're building those ecosystems and bringing in stakeholders to be a part of the solution because that's our responsibility. Right. And so there's that in soccer across the country that I know could benefit from what we're doing. But I'm also getting inklings of maybe there's other sports that could use this style and this approach. Saying that out loud though makes me a little bit nervous because soccer is my comfort zone, or like I know soccer and that's like how I grew up, you know. But I also am an avid football, like I love watching football. I actually know all of the rules in football. I know why the flags are thrown. So I'm like, okay, Danine, you do know this. Like it's, and I'm sure football referees could use some support too. Right. And so I'm thinking about that too. Again, being mindful that quality is really important. And I want to make sure that if we do grow, we have the right people in place to be able to provide quality experiences and services for the people we work with.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I am just so impressed with what you're doing. And I know you're doing things at the junior referee level. You're doing it at the grassroots recreational level. You also have a fast track program to develop referees who feel that they have what it takes to move up and go beyond as well. I think, again, the work you're doing with clubs to sensitize them to the issues that are happening with referees and to create environments that are going to support and build great referees is so critical. The on-field training and development and mentoring is so badly needed. The work that you're doing with parents, that whole family solution and support system to enable referees to go through these difficult moments and come out on the other side and thrive and get through it is so powerful. Danine, how can people connect with referee advocates and support your work if they want to learn from you, if they want to grow with you, if they want to hire you? How do they reach you? Where do they go to learn more?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So we just redid our website. So that's fun. So go ahead and check that out.
SPEAKER_00:It's beautiful, by the way. It's really gorgeous. I love it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, we put a lot of heart and soul into that. Hopefully, that's like oozing out of it. So you can definitely check us out, get to know us a little bit more on what we do.
SPEAKER_00:It's the refereeadvocates.com, right? Refereeadvocates.com.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. Yep. And we are finally having a presence on social media. So you can follow us on Facebook and Instagram, a bit of LinkedIn too. If you find me, Denise Gonzalves, on LinkedIn, you'll be able to see what I do also in the leadership space and then for sure for referees.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I definitely encourage people to check out your website. I was really impressed with what I saw there. And it is beautiful, easy to navigate. You can see that this is so much more than just being an assigning organization. It's so much more than just being a referee training mentor coach organization because those are there are those two that just want to support referees and they're getting paid by referees to help them develop skills and things of that nature. You're really thinking about all of the different areas to help our referees grow and develop and thrive, but even beyond that, to create a thriving and supportive referee community, which is which is so wonderful. Creating these great young girls and boys and men and women. It's really what we're trying to do is help everyone grow and have a wonderful connection with the sport that we love. Danine, I just want to say this has been a fascinating conversation. I am like turning into your biggest fan. And I just want to say thank you so much for coming on to the podcast today and sharing your story with us. So that we love this. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate you having me on as a guest and giving me the space to really share what it is that we're building and we're piloting. And I also wanted to mention, shout out to the clubs that we partner with that have really put in the time, energy, effort, and resources to help us do what we do best, right? Like it's not just us developing, it's like the clubs have said yes to something that we're creating. And now we're seeing clubs saying yes to what's built and what they want to integrate into their communities. So shout out to the clubs that truly take a leap of a bit of faith and a lot of like support and resources to be able to really change the culture.
SPEAKER_00:Amen. Deneen, thank you so much for joining us on today's pod. And everyone out there, thank you so much for your support of the podcast and the Rust Need Love2 platform and online store. I actually just last night launched two brand new holiday sweatshirts and t-shirts. Actually, three. I did an updated one for Christmas and two Hanukkah ones for the first time as well. They're a lot of fun. Check them out. I still have to figure out how to ship them. You may go on there and not figure out how to ship them, but I'm working on it, guys. I'll let you know. And then also as a big heads up for everyone, the rare bit buzzer flags should be back in stock next week as well. So working on getting that ready for everyone. Please support the store online. Everything gets poured back. It's making this channel possible. And as always, I hope your next match is Red Card Spray.