Authority Without Anger: The Quiet Power Of A Calm Referee With Alex Perez

This week, we have a true full-circle moment on the show. After listening to our recent episode with Kevin Klinger on referee mindset, Regional Referee Alex Perez sent in an incredible email about how he immediately applied those lessons during a grueling college showcase weekend. We were so moved by his story—and how he turned a potential on-field disaster into a success—that we immediately invited him on the pod to share his experience firsthand.

Based in West Virginia, Alex is a USSF Regional Referee and National Candidate who officiates in major collegiate pools like the ACC and Big 12, as well as USL2 matches. Beyond the whistle, he is a dedicated mentor and assigner committed to building the next generation of officials. Alex views the pitch as a "high-speed leadership lab," balancing technical mastery with the emotional intelligence required to manage the game's biggest personalities.

In this episode, Alex takes us inside the "8 PM Wall"—that specific moment of physical and mental exhaustion during a tournament when patience wears thin. He opens up about a specific U19 match where fatigue triggered a snarky response to a player, and how he used a specific "breathe and reset" technique to regain control. We discuss the importance of body language, how to make allies on the pitch, and how he turned a hostile environment into a game where players were swapping jerseys with him at the final whistle.

We also dive into the "suitcase life" of a traveling official (including Alex’s intense "Rule of 3" packing strategy) and share one of the funniest heckler stories involving a mustache that you will ever hear. Plus, we have special offers from our sponsors, Refersports and Umpiro, to help you upgrade your assigning software and your footwear. You are going to love the honesty, humility, and energy Alex brings to the show!

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Transcript

Listener Email That Sparked The Episode

Sponsor: Refersports Assigning Platform

Sponsor: Umpiro Referee Shoes

Show Open And Guest Introduction

Alex’s Path Into Refereeing

SPEAKER_01 0:04

You guys are gonna love the show this week. Every week I receive messages from people after the podcast. Now, sometimes it's like, oh my gosh, the best podcast ever. Sometimes, wow, you know, I never really thought about that. But this week, a referee, a fellow referee of ours, a regional referee, Alex Perez out of West Virginia, sent me this email that just really moved me. He listened to my podcast, launched it on a Friday, and he was driving to a tournament, like a college showcase six hours away. And so he put on the podcast we did last week with Kevin Klinger, and he listened to it, and it really moved him. And he was able to immediately put it into practice in his eight games that he had that following Saturday and Sunday. And he wrote me like this long, like five or six paragraph email about how he was able to use kind of that breathe and reset and refocus thing that we talked about with Kevin. I was like, oh my gosh, man, Alex, you need to come on the pod and talk about that. How cool. So I invited him on, and I think you guys are gonna love it. But first, a word from our sponsors. We all know the struggle of dealing with ancient assigning software, clunky websites, no apps, missed emails, and constant confusion. It's time for assigners to upgrade. Refersports is the modern assigning platform built for the way we actually live and work today. It's sleek, it's intuitive, and it makes managing your schedule, whether you're the ref or the assigner, effortless. We want people to stop fighting with the software and start focusing on the game ahead of them. It's 2026, for gosh sakes. Every assigner should have a website, which Refersports will actually build them one for free, and a great app. Get modern with refersports. You can find them at r-efr s po-r-t-s.com, refersports.com, tell them I sent you. As referees, our feet are the most important tool. You're running three, four, or sometimes six or seven miles a match. Six seven. Get it? So why are you wearing cleats designed for a striker who plays half the game or running shoes made for wide open roads? You need footwear built for us. Umpiro shoes are designed specifically for referees. They offer the arch support, stability, confidence to make cuts, and the cushioning you need to handle a triple header without being in agony tomorrow. Stop wearing cleats made for someone else. Wear referee shoes made for soccer referees. Check out Umpiro. Buy them at officialsports.com. Use my code refsneedlove2 all spelled out all together for 10% off. It is an absolute steal compared to what I used to pay for my hokas. And they now come in wide widths. They have a third generation that just came out. You will absolutely love them. Hello and welcome to the Refs Need Love2 Podcast, a show that gives you a real, raw, behind-the-scenes view of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch: the referee. I'm your host, David Gerson, a grassroots referee and certified mentor with over 11 years of experience, over 1,400 matches under my belt. You can find me at refsneadlove2.com on Instagram, TikTok, and now on YouTube. We have a very special guest today. And before I tell you about him, I want you to know that I read every single message, DM, or email sent to me. It is gratifying to know that the content I put out into the world is appreciated. There's something that connects with someone and helps them to be a better referee or a dad or an entrepreneur. It's so gratifying. It's one of the most gratifying things in the world. I'm just trying to be a kind and good person as my dad would have wanted. And I think the soccer pitch needs more kind and good people. Our next guest is definitely that. He listened to our podcast last week with Kevin Klinger on official mindset management and immediately put it into practice. Then he wrote me an email outlining his experience the very next day after he was on the bench. And I was moved. I was like, oh my gosh, he's actually putting it into practice. So I invited him to come onto the show and share it with you a little bit about Alex. He's a USSF regional referee based in Parkersburg, West Virginia. He's got seven years of referee and officiates in the ACC, A10, Big 12, and Sunbelt Collegiate Pools, as well as USL2 matches. Beyond his own matches, he serves as a lead assigner and mentor for the West Central and MOVSA Youth Soccer Associations, where he's dedicated to building the bench for the next generation of West Virginia officials. Let's go. Outside of the jersey, Alex is a proud member of the IBEW, working as an installation technician in low voltage IT communications and infrastructure. A lot of that going on right now. He views the pitch as a high-speed leadership lab. And Alex is currently tracking for his national referee candidate this year and is a vocal advocate for the art of officiating, balancing technical mastery with the emotional intelligence required to manage the game's biggest personalities. Welcome to the show, Alex.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Wow. I appreciate that. I'm so excited to be here. I love listening to your podcast and then being on it. Like I'm just super excited. I'm looking around going, Yes, this is awesome. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Anytime you need a personal hype, man, I'll be that guy. I love being that from people. Call me up, I'll pick you up, man. Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

I'm your man. So there has been, I've traveled through different states hoping to run into you because I'm like this guy. I want him either to mentor me, be on my crew, or just hang out.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

I'm a good crewmate. Number one, I got your back. Number two, we're always gonna have a laugh and a smile. But man, I'm gonna be there. If I am your assistant referee, you can know when you look over on that play on the goal line, I will be on the goal line. It's that classic, you know, Jack Nicholson. You want me on that wall. You need me on that wall to be on that goal line. I swear. Oh my man.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

That's a crewmate right there. I would back you up whenever the players turn. You need to say something. No, buddy. That guy's covered.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

I've actually started to become like the assignment guy. So if my referees here in Georgia in my local area, they're going, they're doing their regional assessments or their national assessments or whatever it might be. Like, I'm like, just bring me. I'll be your fourth official. I'll be your assistant referee. You won't have to worry about a thing. It's nice to know when you've got a good crew, people who are able to not only do the job, but help you be a better referee because you got confidence in them on the line. You got confidence in your fourth to manage the technical area and stuff. It makes a big difference for the person in the middle of the pitch. They can really just focus on doing their job, which is great. Let's talk. I gave a little bit of a bio about you, but talk to me a little bit about you as a referee. You're doing amazing, but a little bit about your background and where you're currently working.

You Don’t Need To Be A Former Player

SPEAKER_00 6:42

When talking about yourself, you try to be as humble as possible. Really, we can get into this later, but real quick, got into officiating after seeing a huge brawl on the field. After that, I was like, I don't want to see that ever again. Um I'll become a referee. It's been roughly seven years, and I love being on the pitch. I've never played soccer before. I've watched my kids play. I've been a coach for a little bit. I didn't know what I was doing. For me, wearing the badge is the mission doesn't change. So whether I'm doing U8 rec or a D1 collegiate on the SPN, um, everything stays the same. I'm always learning, always mentoring. I love when I'm working with young referees, uh, the mantra that I stick with all the time, over and over again. And it's that have fun, make mistakes, and leave every game better. So for me, I've been a regional referee roughly a year and a half now. I'm also an assigner. I'm also now I think they've added mentor plus. Um and in the collegiate world, uh you've already listed those places. But I am proud to get accepted to the NAIA national championships this year. That was cool. And then on the WAF weekends, I'd spend time on the local lines just trying to build the next generation. I love seeing young referees and take ownership of being a referee.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

I do want to ask a follow-up question, though. So you said you didn't play soccer growing up. So what sports did you play?

SPEAKER_00 8:12

So I did what back in the day was everything important. I wanted to do football, never did football. I did basketball and I traveled through basketball for many years. I rode the bench my seventh grade year. I love sharing this story because on my seventh grade year, even though I rode the bench, I was the team hype man. At the end of the season, coach gave me this big glass, two-inch thick trophy. There were some other teammates that were jealous, but because of that, that's why I started loving sports. You're not just about being talented, it's the people you have around you.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

I think it is really interesting. There's so many people out there who be like, well, I can't ref because I didn't play at a high level or something. Or I can't ref because, you know, I wasn't like a top player or something of nature. It's like, yo, there's so much more to being a referee than being able to kick a ball or being able to, you know, dribble well with your left foot or something of nature. We need people who are athletic to get up and down the pitch, but have a deep appreciation for the game. And I think there's a lot of people out there who may not have been great athletically, but have a real love for the game. I was a rugby player in college and I'm a team captain. I was not the best player, but I understood the game and I had to motivate, you know, my fellow players, and I understood how to communicate with the referee actually as well because I knew the laws inside and out. I was such a nerd, and I became a rugby referee eventually. But I do think that is important. You can't shouldn't limit yourself or say, I can't be a referee. You've taken your love of the game, and you you said your kids had played for a long time. So you got to watch them, and then you decided, oh, well, maybe I'm gonna I want a referee. I mean, how'd you make that leap? Okay, now I'm gonna referee soccer.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

All right, so it this leads back into that little piece of story that I shared earlier. My daughter played direct soccer, and my son became a varsity player for the high school team. Watching these games and seeing what soccer is meant more to him than anything else. I was a dad. I tried to push basketball. Hey, don't you like basketball? But no, he loved soccer. And so I was like, okay, I'll go with you on this. And through this journey, just watching soccer, I fell in love with it. And with you have these games where you come up and you have a big brawl on the field. A little extra kick here, a little extra tackle there, and people getting upset. The referees on the field, God bless their heart, like they they were trying their best to keep this match under control, but somebody decided to throw a punch to back him up, and now there's a big brawl of 22 players on the field with coaches running on and everybody running on, grabbing and holding. And then I see the fence line and parents yelling, pointing, and then now the two opposing teams are next to each other, and now they're grabbing, pulling, pointing. Yeah, I never want to see that ever again.

Mindset Tools From Kevin Klinger

SPEAKER_01 10:54

I listen, man, referee becoming a referee out of spite because you don't want to see games get out of control or you want to see kids get hurt is a really good reason to become a referee. Honestly, I think if people think they can do it better, come do it. We want people who are concerned about kids' welfare. We want people who want to keep games in control. So talk to me a little bit about the reason for the email. You reached out after listening to the Kevin Klinger episode last week. Set the scenes. So you've got a long drive going to your games, and you listen to this. Talk to us about the listen and then what you had to do that weekend.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

When I was listening to you guys, there there was a lot of things that came up that I just loved. On my long drive, I'll listen to music. It was six-hour drives from West Virginia down to Gatlinburg. So I was like, I'm gonna throw into some podcasts. And yours is always my first go-to. First good listener here, by the way. Thank you. And I saw the name Kevin Klinger, and I was like, holy cow, there's different Zooms throughout the United States. I've joined Cal South, Florida, Ohio, Maryland. I'm a student of the game. I love it. And then when I saw his name, I was like, I remember him talking about descent and how to assess it, going through what is green and what is red. How do you you can let it go? How do you assess? How do you and knowing him the way he spoke that presentation, I knew that this podcast was going to be on point. So went through, flipped it on, turned you guys on. And right as I was listening, about that time I received an email from U.S. officials. I joined their website recently, and uh he got the what was it, the director of education? Right. So I saw that and I was like, the stars have aligned. This is great. This is the guy. When you guys started listing the triggers, biased, cheater, incompetent, slow, all the things. I was like, not only was I just listening, I was nodding while driving, going, Yup, that was me. I feel that. Holy cow, I gotta apply this stuff. Has now added to my toolbox as I was moving forward. I was like, this first game, I'm gonna implement this.

Applying The Reset In A Grueling Weekend

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Yeah, I hear you. So you're driving to this tournament or this set of games in Gatlin where people don't appreciate. I always appreciate when someone's trying to be regional or national and they're trying to get game count, right? You're trying to get these competitive matches, especially you in West Virginia, you're driving long ways to get there. So you got an eight-hour drive, and then you actually had a weekend of eight matches. Am I correct on that? Is it eight matches?

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Yes. And the divide wasn't like four and four, it was five and three.

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SPEAKER_01 13:24

So you've got five matches going out there. Did you have any opportunities or were you mentally challenged where you had to do a mental reset during one of those matches?

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Holy cow. Multiple because I try to insert myself into their players' thinking. And this is like the start of the season. Some of the teams that were listed had ECNL on their name, other youth elite type teams. And so it's January. I'm looking around. I'm like, okay, why are they acting like this? Sometimes they want to go out and just kill each other.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

Why? It's 8 p.m. and it's 36 degrees, but just play the game, put the ball on the goal. Some of them are trying to gain a spot. I saw multiple cameras on the side. They're trying to build their highlight reel for a coach or team or a collegiate team or whatever they're going to. So I have to put my myself in the mindset knowing the moment I step on this field and blow this whistle to start, they're looking to do something. Not that it's something bad, but it's going to grow because this guy's looking to get a better spot. This guy's looking to get a good highlight reel. This guy's looking to get a good defensive play going on. To them, they think they're doing just fine. But the person they just tackled and took out their legs almost did something reckless. Now they're upset. What are they going to do? Retaliate. So I have to put myself in the mindset knowing that this is going to grow and grow. Reset every game. Every game there was a reset.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

Yeah, I think these days you can't trust what's on the game sheet. Like every team has some elite premier platinum, blah blah blah. You have no idea. But opening yourself up to the moment, like the match in front of you, being present and reading the room as to what's going on and knowing how you need to insert yourself early on is critical as a referee. So before you listen to the episode about a mental reset that Kevin talked about last week, have you done things like that previously? Have you consciously tried to do a mental reset mid-match?

SPEAKER_00 15:48

The answer really is no. I know we bumble ourselves through some of the stuff, what we think is right. Um so to really answer that question, I don't feel like I have. I probably have in a I just need to do this or whatever, but sometimes you just stare, lock down, and think the next step is correct and just do that. And maybe that's the flight or flight mode, but this is a whole different ballgame because you have to be the calmest guy out there. Like the person in front of you is already defensive. So the moment your volume goes, they're gonna go higher, next higher, and then now we're here. And now you've stepped into a part where you have to deal with it.

Preparation For Physical And Mental Load

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Yeah, I think it's a good thing to learn how to take that step back. I see way too many times when referees escalate, they'll take steps towards a player, towards a coach, or they'll use their voice and really raise their voice towards a player to coach or spectator, and it never goes well at all. So talk to us about like, okay, so you go to this tournament, you've got eight-game college showcase. Talk to us about what that feels like physically and mentally. Because I have a feeling that when you've got that heavy physical load, it actually is a heavy mental load as well. So talk to me about that feeling. Even you, who is extremely fit and going towards your national candidate, five games in a day, especially when you're in a bunch of centers, that's no joke.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

It isn't. And everything is preparation. Everyone step walks up to the field maybe two minutes before and goes, Okay, guys, you get ball, tweet, let's go. You can't do that. And I've heard in many of your podcasts where that's a trigger for you. I'm with you on that one. Everything comparing up to even just a rec game, a youth elite game or uh USL game, there's weeks before that's happening to build up to this. I gave myself a new sports injury, plantar fasciitis in my right foot. Running eight games this weekend was rough. Yeah, but I knew it was coming. So before this, I'm doing everything I can. I'm talking to trainers, I'm talking to whoever, just to give me any information what to do with my foot. Um, I made it through, like it worked. Only because two weeks prior was leg press, mobility, adjustments, running, sprinting, all of the things up to that point. So I get to this weekend, I still do my 15-minute warm-up before the whistle, and I was able to get through all eight games through the weekend.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Yeah. So I think it is not this weekend. I'm home this weekend. Next weekend I go to California and I've got U10 games. They call it the younger State Cup in Southern California. I have not done a U10 game in if we tell you how long. I mean, it might honestly be five years. Like pre-COVID was the last time I did a U10 match. But, you know, I'm gonna be reviewing my local rules of competition. You know, I might even watch some film on build out lines. Just again, you know, just watch a couple games, U10 games. I've got a lot of video access that I that I get to. I might watch and see what that looks like again and what the speed looks like and what a foul is at U-10, you know, and how, you know, how they're applying the build-out line. And also, you know, understanding headers, indirect free kicks, all those such things. I promise you, I'm not just gonna show up and go. I think it's really interesting too. Your tournament that you had last weekend, to do that two weeks of work, you're putting in the time and effort to get yourself physically fit and ready to go for those matches. So I understand the physical toll, but there's a mental toll as well. If a referee has to make 300 decisions a game in an average 90-minute match, but by the time you've gotten to that fifth match of the day at 8 p.m. at 36 or 38 degrees outside with you 19 boys, so heavily testosterone-filled young men, you've made thousands of decisions that day. You know, your body is hurting, and then you're pushed into this. Okay, now I've got to make hard decisions and deal with people who are upset. Is there anything that you're doing to try and keep yourself focused on that moment in time and keep yourself steady and grounded on the pitch?

Rituals, Mentors, And Pre‑Match Planning

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Yeah, the more I think about it, I do things in almost rich ritually based, ritual based, um, to get me to that point. I've been on matches where I show up and I'm expecting like I've said it this is how this is gonna go. And that has mentally thrown me off in games more than not. Um everything I do beforehand is preparing for that. I'm looking at video, calling mentors. Um I have Multiple referee groups that I'm in that I just throw in a text and say, hey, I'm going to this and they support me. Or I throw in a video or a scenario and everyone has their own perspective and that's cool. I love seeing that and I love hearing that because there is times where I'm gonna do a U-10 match and I'm like, hey, I had this scenario. Why did it go bad? This is how the parents think, this is how the players think, this is how coaches think. Ah, that makes more sense. I would ask the question. I would tell you, hey, that's awesome that you're going to that great State Cup assignment. Blow the whistle. Don't get advantage. Don't ask the question. Was that fair? Nope. Blow the whistle. Those are the things that help me mentally prepare for what's next.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

So talk to me about this journey that you're on as a referee. So you're tracking towards national. For those who do not know, less than 1% of referees in our country, about a thousand referees are regional. Make it to national badge. About one-third of the people who are regional make it to national. So we're going down to about 350 referees, and then pro is about 100, pro one, pro two. It's the elite of elite. So how does that pressure change your internal dialogue during matches or how you approach matches?

Chasing The National Badge

SPEAKER_00 21:37

Oh man, there's a lot of video cameras around. There's a lot of phones that are always out. My fifth match was 36 degrees. I'm wearing my shorts, uh, socks, and obviously long sleeve, but nothing out of the ordinary. I had referees that were wearing pants and beanies and gloves and all that stuff. I'm not going to tell you not to wear that. Please be comfortable. Don't get yourself out there. But that pressure adjusts the way that I approach everything on the field. So I want to, in case anything were to come up, I want to make sure that I'm applying what I know, how to assess the situation, to look the part, to be the part, to play the part.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

And do you so we talked earlier about you're a mentor, things of the nature? You're also a dad too. Do you look at matches in different ways? Like, okay, I'm going to take this assignment because this one gets me closer to my national bag. I'm going to take this one because that tournament's going to pay well. I'm going to take this one because I want a mentor. How do you break up the matches that you choose on a weekend? It's something I struggle with all the time. I want to be more places, meet more referees. I also want to give back and be a mentor, but I also want to challenge myself as a referee. There's only so many years I'm going to be able to still be on the pitch with those 18, 19-year-old, very fit men and women. So how do you look at each game?

Balancing Assignments: Money, Momentum, Mentorship

SPEAKER_00 22:51

How many chooses? Shout out to my wife. I love you. When I started this and going into regional, even before regional, I sat her down and I said, hey, look, this is what this looked like. It's going to cause a lot of sacrifice or going to ask for a lot of sacrifice. Um, are you okay with it? Uh for me, somebody knows I started early. My kids are 18 and 24, and I'm 42. So you guys can do the math. I asked them too, hey, this is gonna require me to be away a lot. I'm working Monday through Friday, and then on the weekends, I will probably be gone as well. So they said, okay, if this is what you love to do, we support you in it 100%. We have a family calendar that all on our phones that has every single one of my matches, and then whatever you know is going on with them. There was a time where there was a wedding that my nephew had asked me to officiate, and I had accepted an assignment and it popped up on there. My wife goes, Hey, you're supposed to help officiate your nephew's wedding. And I'm like, Oh, you're right. Yeah, excuse me, signer. I appreciate you with the assignment. I love it, but I have to turn it back. So there is times like that, but I do plan ahead. I plan multiple months ahead all the way until May set up. So in February, I'm gonna go to Kentucky for a showcase down by Louisville, the USL team, and the the women's their training center, they're having a college show. Then the week after, Florida has the ECNL RL, Bradenton. The week after that, I'm going back to Kentucky for the women's side of their second half of the tournament. And then two weeks after that, there's a MLS next quarter, is it quarterfinals or anyways it in Ohio? So I have the next five weeks already set. I need to make sure that everything's in order and doesn't cause any conflict here at home, especially.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

That's wild. So are you looking at those as okay, these are money games? Like these are things where I'm just trying to earn money to be able to pay for my travel to the national events I want to go to. Are those mentorship games? Are they momentum games? Because you think that this is going to be the right type of games that are going to help move me forward as a referee. How like what are those games to you?

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Yeah, and I'm glad you pointed those out. In my mind, that's where the categories are. When I accept these assignments for tournaments, they're either money, they're either momentum, and they're either mentorship. And this last one in Gatlinburg was strictly money. I need plane tickets, I need car rentals wherever I'm going in Florida. I don't have stuff down there, so I need to pay for all of that. So that was specifically that. Shout out to Miss Gina Foster. She's a great assigner. And giving you$100 for traveling more than 80 miles, and then every game above U 16 was like 76 or 80 bucks a game. So I was like, hey, I'll take that. So that's going in a separate bank so I can do these things. But along with that, I was able to treat this last tournament as a mentorship. I ran into one of your fellow referees, a young, yet 18-year-old referee by the name of Tristan. Yeah. Armstrong. Yeah, great official. And with working with him, I just jumped into mentoring mode. Like, hey man, this was great. I loved how you did this. Think about this, do this. And he's nodding his head, yes. Oh, yeah, I can definitely do that. So that was another thing, too. So I turned around and was able to just mentor this young kid. It's now a week later, two weeks later, I don't know. But he reached out and we're sitting here talking about how he can get to college, who he needs to talk to. And I'm like, man, I'm not gonna gatekeep. Here's who you need to talk to, here's where here's the steps you need to take. Let's move forward. So that filled the mentoring bucket. And then leading into my Florida trip, where there's gonna be multiple uh referee coaches and mentors, that's where your momentum is gonna kick in because knowing how to talk to people, knowing how to uh use what they say and do to help you propel forward. So for me, listen, seven years, I haven't seen a lot of referees say, Yeah, in seven years I've come accomplished this. I've only done the college three years. D1 on ESPN. Who trusts someone in three years to put them on TV? Yeah, three years, no problem. It's because of those things that allowed me to be that for assigners.

The 8 P.M. “Wall” Match Setup

SPEAKER_01 26:59

I love that. That's fantastic. Just want to give a shout out to Tristan. Tristan was our Georgia soccer young referee of the year. He is on pace to be regional this year at 18 years old. His dad is also a phenomenal referee here in Georgia. Tristan's got everything going for him. He's got the fitness, the maturity, his mechanics are flawless when he's grown up with the game. He's also open to feedback. Every referee who wants to move up better be willing to grow. And so even though he's a great referee, he's also someone who's very willing to grow. One thing I want to pivot to, if you don't mind, Alex, I'm really interested in this game you called the wall last week. When you email me, I've got this pulled up over here. So the 8 p.m. wall. It was my fifth game of the day. I've been at the field since 10 a.m. I had two U19 ECNL teams that had never met and clearly wanted to kill each other. In the first five minutes, players are swarming me. I actually had one player tell me that if I kept calling fouls, the game would quote, get out of hand, unquote. My internal reaction was wait, what? When I remembered the podcast, I used that deliberate breath, reset my posture, and realized I'd been triggered by the fatigue and the noise. Let's talk about that for a second. So you're in this match, you are physically and mentally exhausted. And the natural response when you've got some 18-year-old kid, and really they are a kid. I mean, I'm in my 50s, and you got some kid yapping at you, critiquing you, your natural response would be to snap back or say some snarky comment or lose composure, or all of a sudden engage in a back and forth dialogue. I've lived three lives to your one little life, all that kind of stuff. So talk to me about that. You've got this moment, you're physically exhausted, you're mentally exhausted. There's only so much one brain can do. What happened to you in that moment? And can you talk about how you got yourself through that moment and through that match?

SPEAKER_00 28:57

It's now 8 p.m. I've been there since 10, 10:30 a.m. And temperature has now dropped. That's yeah, 35, 36 degrees morning. Every player, every spectator, every coach has that big parka type of jacket on, and I'm standing there just in shorts and sleeves. Again, my standards, no shortcuts, right? Yeah. So I blew the whistle to start within 40 seconds. What a foul, like immediately. Like, what? I figured the cold, anything that hits you when you're cold, it's gonna hurt. Okay, relax, guys. Let's go. Immediately, immediately I'm getting the business from players. Ref, this, ref. Come on, ref. I'm open up my tool bag on let's try this. Let's try this. And nothing was working. As this was happening, I'm just thinking to myself, what is going on? I literally asked my question out loud. I think players probably heard it. And I asked the question, like, what am I doing wrong? Am I missing the point? I wish I had comms with my fellow referees. I'm looking at them and listen, I had a 24-year-old AR and a 17-year-old poor Emma, young lady over at AR2, just getting it from the parents. She's just wide-eyed. Like, yeah, I said as I drive by or run past her, I have to check in and like, hey, everything okay? Anything comes up, just talk to me, and we will take care of you. Anytime any of the players turned and faced her way, I ran over in between. Hey, talk to me. Don't talk to her. I got you. Let's move on. So they were just out to do something. I'm really not sure. Yeah. So I had to find what that reset even looked like. 8 p.m. We're now 8 15 into it, 8 20. Um, and like I turned the corner. I was like, okay, I'm done. So I'm gonna call every foul. Like, this is what you wanted. And I actually snapped back to the players, and I I caught myself snapping back to the players, going, Hey, this is what you wanted. And then I turn and look, and then I stop okay. I knew right away after I said that and did that. I was like, that's not right at all. So I had to figure it out. The turning point is finding the reset.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

Yeah.

Catching A Snarky Moment And Resetting

SPEAKER_00 31:06

And so you can control the controllables. Yeah. So those who are listening, even those who are like, I only do UA matches, you can do the same thing. You can control the controllables. I mean, something as simple as a free kick, a throw-in, all of those things. And it sounds horrible to say, but sometimes there is times where you need to do selfish refereeing to allow you to referee. Because if you are just letting them have the game whatever they want, you're too busy just trying to play catch up. You're gonna lose you're you're gonna run out of breath. Yeah. Hey, hold on. We're gonna do the free kick here. Wait for the whistle, please. Let's set our 10. Are you guys set? Cool. All right. Keeper, are you ready? Are you ready? Yes, no? Okay, cool. Ready? Go. There's your breath. There's your time. You gotta find where to do that. You're not taking away from the game, but you also need to give yourself the breath so you can reset and go.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

I love that. I I would just like say so free kicks, wonderful. Time to take a moment. And you don't need to run around the pitch. You can jog or walk to get into your spot, set the wall, and all those things. I highly encourage this for every referee. You should be managing substitutions as if it is a pro match. And when I say that, player comes all the way off the field before another player comes onto the field. Because again, it gives you time to catch your breath, to get yourself mentally ready for the next play that needs to happen. I see way too often where someone blows a whistle, like tweet, and subs, and players are running on. And like, okay, how many players are coming on? How many players are coming off? If it's one of those leagues that takes cards or you got to record subs, it's a mess. Take those moments and collect yourself, both physically and mentally, and also get yourself focused on that next play. I think those little moments on the pitch, there's like a real gem of wisdom by taking those deep breaths, you know, and Kevin talked about that last week during those free kicks and subs. Use those moments to help you reset and get focused for the next play. So you actually had a snarky retort toward a player, to a teenager. You're a grown man, and you literally said, This is what you and your teammates want calling these souls or something like that out loud. All right, talk me through. You acknowledge it, you centered yourself, right? Have to address what happened, and then you got to transition to something else. So talk us through what is that acknowledgement in your head, first off. Okay. So what are you saying to yourself in your head?

SPEAKER_00 33:40

So you once you acknowledge it, like your body tells you it's screaming at you. Like, I told myself, oh crap. Those who are listening, you can't see my face. My eyes are wide, my mouth goes, oh crap.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Yeah, this is not national referee material here.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

No, there is a human side to it.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

All human, right? Sometimes we have these things that come out, whether it's a physical response, body language, facial expression, or sometimes the words, sometimes they do just come out. But you said it and you're like, nope, that's not right. So you acknowledge, okay, that's that okay. Walk me through it now.

Controlling Controllables: Free Kicks And Subs

SPEAKER_00 34:13

You acknowledge it. You really have to just state the things that you're in at that moment. I was tired, I was cold, I was defensive already. So you acknowledge it. The next thing you want to do is use the free kicks as the mental breather. Like the Gettlinburg is a great place, great place to just hang out in a cabin and sit by the fire and drink coffee. But at this point in time, that's all I can think about. I need to figure out how to just hold on. I'm out here, they paid to be here. Um, players are looking for a spot here, so I need to give them the game that they deserve.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

Yeah. For those who don't know, Gatlinburg is in the great smoky mountains in far east Tennessee. Yes, Tennessee does get snow, it does get cold. Just set the scene. But it's a beautiful area, lots of mountains. So yeah. So you're sending yourself, you're like, okay, I got to step away, take a breath. I've got this here. And you know, did you address it going forward with the player? How'd you transition out of this?

SPEAKER_00 35:12

I knew I had to fight my way back. I've dug myself a hole. Like as a referee, the moment you do these things and start, you haven't dug yourself a hole. Because everyone's looking to you as a credible guy. Everyone's looking to you as the calm guy. Everyone's looking at you as the center guy. And when once you show that crack or even open up to that type of snarkiness, you've lost them. So I had to fight my way back. I was looking for any player, anybody that I can attach to to find who I can work with. I called over number 25 and I was like, hey man, I use hand signals low because anything up here is like aggressive. So if hey, come join me, blow the belt type of thing. So to keep the heat down, I told him, I need your help. Uh, your guys asked for this type of game. I'm trying to give them this game, but it seems like I don't know what you guys want. I'm confused. That's gonna make the game confusing. Help me keep them safe. We bonded there, and that allowed me, once I got with him, to see who else I could find and work with the other team and the other players.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

That's so interesting. You're making allies on the pitch. 100%. Yeah. 100%. I wouldn't call them friends, but they can be allies for a period of time. So you had this acknowledgement, you centered yourself. Now you're starting to make connections with players on the pitch to get better in alignment and also people helping you manage the other players on the pitch. So, how did everything start changing for you? Like your posture, your voice, your decision making after that moment in time.

Building Allies On The Pitch

SPEAKER_00 36:39

Yeah, posture is a big thing. So here, like when you're small, though, again, those who are not seeing, like listening to the podcast, I'm like crouching down, like making myself smaller. The moment you do that, like everything is gonna come down on you. If you push your shoulders back, uh helps you build up on the confidence you already have. Something happened, you now hunker down. So shoulders back, breathe, look at what's ahead of you to the next play. Because if we get stuck there, the game will continue the same way. Yep. So, you know, you ask the keep if they're ready, and then everything that just recently happened, it's gone. New game from here on out.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

That's amazing how people can look at a referee and know are they going in the turtle position? Are they like their head is down, they're scared making a call, they're not confident in the decision they make versus someone who's like, no, I'm in control. Yeah, this is what I saw. Free kick. Let's go. It's a dramatic difference. The referee is not the anchor for a boat in the storm, or maybe it's those pylons that a boat like ties up to or something in the nature, but they do look to us, you know, the players, okay. Everything is kind of crazy going around. And if the referee can be that calm in the chaos, that person who stands strong and stands confident, it just makes everything, everyone settles down a little bit and they just start playing soccer more, which is really important. So you have this moment, make this transition, you start making progress, then you get to the end of the match. How did you know it worked? The reset worked, or man, I had no credibility in this match. They've hated me.

Posture, Voice, And Turning The Game

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Like, how did you know? Okay, this match at halftime, it was either 1-0 or 2-0 at the half. This game ended a 3-3 tie. Oh, wow. So drama for your mama. So at this point in time throughout the game, I'm now talking more with players, game stuff, not life stuff. And it's this player was like, hey man, we should do a jersey swap. And I go, Really? Nah. Two minutes later, I call a foul on him. And so that relationship has now been severed. We're playing, and the very last like two minutes, oh, there's like less than a minute left. And the count it, the clock, I'm watching it count down. And it's three, two, and the blue team's down by one. And at that point in time where I call the foul, this player now has a cramp. I'm not gonna call blow the game dead there. I'm gonna let them finish out because they worked with me. I'm gonna work with them. Hey, if you step off the field, I can continue this game. He's like, Yeah, I got a cramp. A parent came by, filed his leg up. Yeah, and then blue kick. Okay, it's gonna be on my whistle, relax. Keeper, are you sure? Are you ready? He goes, Yes. Okay, cool. Everybody's here from the other team. Run up. I'm like, oh, okay, here we go. So it was not a beautiful kick. Yeah. It went like this parent to the front person in this conglomerate of people. And then it bounced in, hit his leg, hit the inside post of the goal, and I go, What? That's a goal. Okay, here we go. Game's over. Tweet, we're done. Because I'm not adding extra time. It's now close to past nine o'clock. We've got to, we're done. Everyone just shake hands and they're all walking to the bench. And I just wait for my crew. Good job, Emma. Good job, Goldman. And then as we walk over, the players are waiting for us. Like, hey, you guys did a great job. Oh. I was dumbfounded. I really thought the opposite. Yeah. Seriously. I thought, like, we're just gonna let them handshake, you know, grab our stuff and go. Yeah. And no, they were actually appreciative of this game. So that turning point really helped. And the lines were done. The coaches said, shook our hands, good job. And then the the kid in blue came back. Hey man, we still gonna do that jersey swap? I was like, Are you kidding? I looked around for cameras first. Uh hey. I don't normally do this, but because it's 3-3 and there's no bias here, I will do this for you, sir. It's great. So we took it off, we held each other's jerseys, and then we gave it back. Yeah. And someone took a picture and it's out there in the world.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

Wow. That's so cool as a referee. We have to remember our job is to be a judge, right? Where there is an official. Sometimes during the moment, people may not show appreciation because they're competing at a high level and their emotions are up. But post-game, there is an appreciation. Okay, that's another person who was on the pitch with me during this challenge. We're not going to get the same love that a teammate will, but we will often get some appreciation from a fellow competitor who's out there on the pitch. So talk to me about like you didn't just have issues with players. You also had a, you've had scenarios in the past where you've had issues with parents. Talk to me about how parent interference might trigger you. So there's you know, something a player says to you. Is there ever times when you've had challenges where a parent has said something to you, or maybe you talked about Emma, like a young referee? Have you ever had you know challenges where you've had a dad being like an outside spark or trigger for you and how you responded?

The 3–3 Finish And Mutual Respect

SPEAKER_00 41:31

Yeah, I have a scenario that I've never forgiven myself for. And I was in an Ohio tournament, I don't know, a couple years back. Um, it was a U-13 game. Great. I enjoyed it. It was a fun game overall. But there was outside noise from a parent sitting on their fold-out chair um on a U-13 game where a young girl was trying to throw in the ball. At that age, put the ball in play, let them kick the ball more than worrying about what a throw-in looks like. They'll figure that part out later. Yes, it's just a competitive tournament, but it's just a youth tournament where they need to have more touches on the ball. That's what I wanted. I wasn't calling these foul throws. Put the ball in play, let it go under the feet. This game probably was a 1-0 game. That was the most exciting part of the match, the goal. See what the goal looks like. Put the ball in play. But this parent every time. That's a foul throw. And just loud. It wasn't that he was saying anything personal to her. I can see her face, her eyes looked at me. And she didn't say anything. It was help. And I didn't do anything as a referee. So after that moment, anytime I have an outside agent, I have to assassin. When you're at these collegiate D1s, they will say what they say because they're paid to be there. But in these youth tournaments, games, whatever, like everyone's learning. Referees are learning.

SPEAKER_01 42:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

Like all the yelling is not helping.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

So anytime an outside agent, outside parent, spectator says anything, I have to look at them and assess what I'm gonna do after that.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

Yeah. I mean, I don't think about the the children that I'm refereeing as my children. Um, but I just like if I'm a concerned member of the community, if I'm responsible for these kids, I'm not going to let a parent say anything negative, nasty that's going to ruin their experience. They're, you know, their experience is all about growth, development, and forming a love of the game. And some, you know, adult yelling at them, criticizing them, is not fostering, you know, a safe, fair, fun environment. So for me, that's an issue. I've got to stop that in its tracks. Have you ever had a coach stay behind to thank you for tossing a parent?

Handling Toxic Sidelines And Parents

SPEAKER_00 43:45

Yes. I understand that coaches have a hard job in what they do, right? They're in charge of the bench, the roster, and they have to navigate through parents in order to keep face. They sometimes can't say anything. They need to either, I don't know, have keep having their kid come in for payment or money or how however all that works. It doesn't matter to me, but let's get our US playing soccer. US kids playing soccer. However that is, when us as referees have the courage and are brave enough to assess what's right instead of just making this up and actually follow through. If you heard the rest of the game, it was the best game that has happened. And the team who lost, it was 1-0. They lost. They enjoy this game the most because they had a chance to hear themselves and play through what was happening. Even though they lost every game, this was their best game. The winning coach, he's the one that admitted, yeah, that was my parent. Like I've never had a referee throw at a parent before. Hey, I want to thank you. And actually, very well job done. So I love hearing these things. It doesn't give me like it's not even a pat on the back. All that tells me is that stuff that I've been training on the stuff that I've been working on is working. Use those things to make the game better.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

Yeah. I think there's a generation of referees who feel that ignoring abuse makes me strong or hard or I'm tough because I don't respond to people yelling at me. Okay. Again, and we talked about like MLS game, whatnot, like that's this whole entertainment experience, whatnot. We understand that's the direction given. At a youth game with children on the field, it's the wrong thing to do. If you've got that kind of toxicity out there and it's creating a toxic environment for the kids, it's destroying the game. So it makes it better. When you do take that action, and I think it's so important, it's the strong thing to do to stop and throw the parent out. It's the weak thing to do to allow that toxicity to continue to destroy the environment for the kids playing the game. And the next referee who has that parent on their match. All right, we're gonna move quickly into the bonus round here as we come to the end of our conversation, Alex. If you could change one law of the game tomorrow, what would it be and why? The passback. If you say the passback, we're talking about deliberate kickback to the goalkeeper.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

Why would you change it? It's I would say uh allow them to possess the ball. Okay. Now I get that there's this keep away type of right, uh, everyone's playing forward unless they're winning maybe by 24 goals. The passback is the biggest thing because the majority of issues that I've had have been around a appeal for a pass back by coaches, parents, players. If we take that out, then I think I would have less red cards and supplementals in my lifetime because of the pass back.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

I I won't totally agree, but I think there's a reason why we don't want someone deliberately passing the back to the goalkeeper and them to pick it up with their hands when like a defender's under pressure or something nature, and they just and then you get this advantage of picking up your hands. So I'm gonna I'm gonna like disagree on that, but it is highly subjective as to what is a deliberate pass back by foot and what is not. Therefore, you get a lot of dissent and frustration from coaches, parents, players, and stuff of the nature. And it's it's a recipe for conflict and confrontation. So I'll give you that. I'm with you on that one.

SPEAKER_00 47:14

It's a selfish ask.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

It's okay. You've been traumatized, you've been triggered by this, so it's very sensitive to you. Okay, next one. What is something in your referee bag that would surprise most people?

SPEAKER_00 47:24

I I guess if you don't know me, it may be surprising. If you know me, you're not so surprised. I have a minimum of three of everything in my bag. Um, you can see the jerseys back here. This is one of three of each because I've been to so many tournaments where like, oh man, I don't have blue. Yeah, no problem. Put this on. Hey, I'm actually a large great. Before I had to lose weight. Oh, I'm just kidding. I actually wear medium. Medium too, because I just lost weight, too. So I have a minimum of three of whatever is in my bag.

SPEAKER_01 47:51

Is this a carry-on suitcase or is this like a big suitcase? How big of a suitcase do you bring it?

Strong Action Creates Safer Youth Games

SPEAKER_00 47:56

So it's it's the official sports like big lug with the wheels in the back and the handle, and then it's this big one, like almost huge. So and it has like that secondary on the bottom, too.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

All right. So Alex Perez, the super the suitcase referee. I love it. Next up, do you have any referee superstitions or pregame rituals, or are you just like 100% rational? There's nothing. You just walk out there, you chill.

SPEAKER_00 48:21

So I feel like I'm rational, but I do have things beforehand to get me in the mindset. On long drives, I'll call friends, referee friends, mentors, even pro officials just to throw out some scenarios, just to get me in the mindset. A short drive, let's say 45 minutes to an hour or less, I'll throw on a playlist. But the playlist is specifically like football type of music, the Brazil type, uh the Spanish music, the drums that are just hitting. That's what I want. I want to be in the mindset of a game.

SPEAKER_01 48:53

All right, cool. And then what is the most memorable, bizarre thing you've ever heard yelled from the sidelines?

SPEAKER_00 48:59

Oh, okay. So maybe it's not that big, but I love sharing the story because of the ending. So years ago, I was on the sideline watching high school game. There's his parents with us, and none of us are saying anything to him and just relentless to the referee. Oh, come on, ref. Uh it just bellows all the time to the after every call. And that one time is just like, come on, ref, that's horrible. You're horrible, and your mustache stinks. What? That was a specific insult. What are we doing here? And the referee on the field, he actually had a really good mustache. Okay, fast forward a few years. I've become a mentor, I'm teaching a new referee class. I look out to the students, and there's the parent. He's in the class. No way.

SPEAKER_01 49:45

During it the dude who yelled about the mustache is now becoming a referee.

SPEAKER_00 49:50

I see him in the line going through the AR draws. Yeah, that's him. Oh my gosh. As he does the flag, he puts his flag up, and I'm like, Yeah, and your mustache stinks too. And we both he didn't have a mustache, but he knew exactly what I was talking about. And the funny thing is, more friends, acquaintances, we've seen each other a lot more in the soccer world. I've ended up officiating his kids in college in the surround the area, and they've now become referees. So I love sharing that story.

Lightning Round: Laws, Gear, Rituals, Mustache

SPEAKER_01 50:18

Oh, I love it, man. If there's anyone out there who's referee curious and they're listening to this podcast, if you've said negative things to referees in the past, your penance is now to become a referee. Yes. And not because I want you to be insulted on the pitch, it's because I just, you know, again, it's a way of giving back and paying back, getting back some good karma for all the nasty things you may have said to referees in the past. I love that work. Alex, man, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. I really do appreciate you. And I hope I do get the opportunity to be on the same crew with you sometime in the future. Looking forward to it. All right. Awesome guys. I hope everyone out there enjoyed today's pod. Please support the rest online. Everything that comes from that store gets poured back into making this channel possible. If you're trying to become a regional or national referee, the rare bit buzzer flags made in the USA by another referee in Chicago are fantastic. They're like a third less expensive than the other extremely expensive bags in the travel suitcase.

SPEAKER_00 51:18

If they're a third less expensive, you should have three of them.

SPEAKER_01 51:20

I'm like Alex, get three sets. You get a flag, and you get a flag. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. But yeah, no, the flags are great. The buzzer flags, the weighted flags, you know, coins, the pro cards, all those things are available to store. Check them out. Maybe some merch, whatever. Show your repsy love to stuff. I mean, please, again, everything again goes back to making the channel possible. And as always, thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for all your messages, and I hope your next match is Red Card Frame.