Inside Video Review with Greg Barkey, Head of VAR for PRO

Ever wonder what “clear and obvious” actually means when the stakes are high and the clock is running? We bring you a rare, candid look inside MLS video review with Greg Barkey, the head of VAR at PRO. Greg shares how the system was built in the United States—from early scrimmages with eight cameras at a local park to the first monitor review at Red Bull Arena—and why the guiding principle remains simple: to correct clear and obvious errors without re-refereeing the match.

We dig into the humanity officiating: game management over pure decision making, context over freeze frames, and game management considerations on red cards. Greg explains the concise language that keeps the booth calm and fast—kick point, point of contact, APP, and the all-important “check complete”—and why MLS sends referees to the monitor even on offside. You’ll hear why PRO avoids drawn lines, how their crews judge offside with geometry and field cues, and how that choice protects the flow and preserves goals. We also talk pressure in the booth, the shift to a centralized “Varlington” hub in Texas, and the weekly clip sessions that calibrate judgment across hundreds of games.

If you’ve ever argued about soft penalties, complained about slow-mo making fouls look worse, or wondered why one hold is called and another isn’t, this conversation brings clarity. Greg even floats a provocative idea for changing offside around advantage and impact rather than millimeters—aiming for simpler calls and more goals. Along the way, we trade stories about respect for referees, the small thanks that keep people in the game, and the balance between technology and trust.

Enjoy the deep dive, share it with a soccer friend who lives in the comments, and help us grow by subscribing and leaving a quick review. What would you change about VAR or offside tomorrow? Tell us.

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Transcript

What VAR Should And Shouldn’t Do

SPEAKER_00 0:00

The VR has to be aware of what the referee's decisions are and what they've been giving through the game. And you can you we all know if you're a decent referee that you know a red card in the 89th minute is different than in the second minute because the second minute has 80 88 minutes of history that's been happy in the game, and players are gonna react totally different. And it may be a red card for game management. Where at the second minute, people were, hey guys, stop doing that, and they stopped doing it. So you're not never gonna give a red card. So the VIRs have to think that way too. You know, we've had reviews for no red cards in the first couple minutes of the game because it just wasn't there. The referee thought he wasn't the second minute, it's not a red card. But if it was the 90th minute, you go, yeah, the players have been reacting to this all game, and this is a time where it has to happen. So the VIRs are like that too. We want them to have a feel for the game.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

We have got an absolute treat for you guys today. I mean, seriously, I like to think about who you guys would want to hear on the show. I had the opportunity a few weeks ago at the coaches convention in Philadelphia, and I got to spend over an hour and a half with Greg Barkey, the head of VAR for Pro here in America. So the guy who heads up all the AR for the MLS. Fascinating. I got to sit down and go through a VAR and look at decisions and have the pressure on me and all the different angles and all that kind of stuff. It was intense. And I was like, oh my gosh, I need to have you on the show. And I'm telling you, you're gonna love him. First off, he's like a doll. Like, what a sweet man. Like literally one of the nicest guys I've ever had a chance to speak with in soccer. And I've met a lot of nice people. I think you're gonna love him. But his knowledge of the game, he was a national referee, he was an MLS referee, he was a FIFA referee, and now he's been involved in VAR since its inception. Inception at the real forefront of the game. Let me tell you, you will love his honesty, you know, his transparency, and also the reality of what it is that they're trying to do. They're not robots, they're trying to be humans to have another look at the game and help when there's a clear and obvious era. I think it's so interesting. You guys are enjoying it. Before we get to the interview, I just want to remind you again hey, please go to refsneedlov2.com. Man, on my store, I've got USF style pro grip compression socks. You have never, ever, ever worn a pair of socks like this for refereeing before. I'm telling you, they are comfortable. You'll want to wear them around the house. They're fantastic. They enable you to perform your best on the pitch. Okay, you're not sliding around in your shoe. You can make cuts, and they help your calves feel great because they've got the right level of sports compression that is a gradual pressure up from your foot, keeping the blood flow where you need it to be. It is fantastic. You need to check them out. Also, if you're gonna get the socks, get the shoes. Umpiro, um P-I-R-O onofficialsports.com. Use my code refsneed love too for 10% off. It is an absolute steal at that price. My gosh. Unbelievable. You will not be sad. I use a 10.5 wide. That's right. They make wides, and it's a shoe that's got great grip and it's comfortable and light on your feet. So I feel fast, I can move around. Trust me, Umpiro, you will not go back. Get the Umpiro Pro. I like it all black, but now they also have one with a white sole as well. You do you your call. Lastly, refer sports. Again, assigning should not be so difficult. Okay, for the assigner or the person being assigned. With today's modern technology, it shouldn't be confusing. Again, there are all these tools that are still out there. I've got one guy who uses an access database to assign via email, some guy who calls me, someone who still uses Arbiter. My gosh, I mean, no offense, Arbiter, but it's a platform that was built for technology 20 years ago. ReferSports was built as a modern technology, app-based, simple to use, so many cool interactive features that make assigning easy and also make getting assigned easy. So check them out. Refersports, R-E-F-R sports. Look them up online, tell them I sent you. And now, time for the show. Hello and welcome to the Refsneed Love2 Podcast, a show that gives you a real raw and behind-the-scenes view of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch, the referee. I'm your host, David Gerson, a grassroots referee and certified mentor with over 11 years of experience and over 1,400 matches under my belt. You can find me at refsneedlove2.com on Instagram, TikTok, and now on YouTube. Today we are joined by none other than Greg Barke. Now, you might not know his name, but you have seen his work. He is the manager of Video Review for Pro, the professional referees organization here in the United States since 2018. He's the man, and again, you've probably seen these cool breakdowns and critical calls on inside video review for pro. And he's not just a VAR expert, he is a FIFA instructor. He was a FIFA International Assistant Referee from 95 to 2008, 13 years on the FIFA panel. He was a US, he was on USA referee team in the FIFA World Cup in Germany 2006, MLS Assistant Referee of the Year in 2009, over 300 Major League Soccer matches, four MLS Cup Finals, which making one is an achievement. Four is no joke. USSF national referee since 1995, three open cup finals, nominated for two Emmy Awards for television post-production editing, and probably the biggest accomplishment I know. I've been married for 25 years. He's been married for four years to his wife, Christina, and he's got eight and a half grandkids. Sounds like you got one on the way, Greg. Welcome to the pod. We certainly do. They don't, I think they're done now, though.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

So we'll see.

MLS As VAR Pioneer

SPEAKER_02 5:53

My gosh, it's quite an achievement and quite a career. Mike, it's so interesting to hear about someone. You have really dedicated your life to the game. And again, going from the field, but now also to around the referee. You were a FIFA assistant referee, and now moving to VAR side, was it an easy transition to go from being ref on the field to now focusing on the technology beside the game, supporting the referee?

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Yeah, not really, because I think uh when we came up, at least when I came up, um, you did both jobs. I almost always refereed until I became a FIFA AR. I rarely did assist a referee, but that was the path to take at the time, um, just for various reasons. It was a I looked ahead and said, How can I get to the World Cup? But as a referee or as an AR? And at that time we had some solid referees in the lineup. So I said, I can make it as an AR, so that's why I chose that pass. And then afterwards, I just naturally went there. I don't know if I told you, but I worked at Delvision for 20 years as a post-production editor for Telemundo. And so it was just natural for me to go into the video side of things because, first of all, I understood all the technology and the issues going on and how to work with slow motion and speeds and angles and all that stuff. So it all came very naturally to me. So I when the position came up and when we were first really getting into it, I gravitated to it right away. So it was just only a natural thing to go right into that sort of thing of video and refereeing, which are two things that I love.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

So talk to me about that transition, because I think a lot of people don't know the timing. And also the United States was a trailblazer in VAR technology at the time, if not mistaken. Can you talk to me? So, were you still an assistant referee for MLS when VAR technology came onto the scene, or was there a transition between the two?

SPEAKER_00 7:51

No, I just had retired in 2015. I retired, but just to give you some rule backgrounds, around 2014 and 2015, we started looking at video with MLS. We had people in some stadiums and they would for timing, for example, how long it takes after a penalty kick is given before it's actually taken. Is there time in that gap for a someone to look at a video and decide to either change the decision or keep it? Because everybody was worried when VAR came out about how much time it would take. They would stop the game. So that was a big worry, how long things were gonna take. It's less so now because it's just not doesn't happen as often, but that was a big thing. So we were having people already starting to do some data research on the time it would take to do something. Um, and so that was started, and then in 2016, we along with FIFA, we were testing the background, we started doing some things in the second division and starting training people up. We went to Salt Lake Park City and we brought in a bunch of teams, and we had a week's worth of just cameras, and I feel believe it or not, would be in your backyard. It was your classic grassroots park in a community, and we had eight cameras loaded up there, production truck, and we just brought in teams and we did ran plays to learn how to do it, and that's how it started. We had this a little trailer there with all the production in there, and teams did it in Park City, and that's how we started. Then we kicked we had our first official game, which was in New York in Red Bull Arena, where the first it came out and was actually holding the monitor in their arms like this, till Ishmael it was actually Ishmael Alf that was the first one to go to a monitor to basically in that case it was to take a take away a penalty kick and give a red card because the foul had happened outside the penalty area, and so Ishmael had given it inside and given a yellow card, it was actually was it was just outside, and so then turned from spine to dog. So it was actually a big deal. But that was the first one, and then we were the first league to go with a season of league play. There was a couple other leagues, Australia and Holland and Netherlands were doing some individual games at that point. But in August, we decided to go with the full season, every game in the season.

Innovation, IFAB Trials, And Fan Experience

SPEAKER_02 10:12

Yeah, it's very interesting. I want to make sure everyone hears that. So the MLS was the first, like, again, top professional league that is implementing VAR across all of the stadiums for an entire season, before the Premier League, before La Liga, before Legal. That is really on the cutting edge of change. And I think it's interesting because soccer in America gets a lot of heat for maybe not being at the same level as La Liga or Premier League. But in terms of technology and policy, you guys were the first to implement the VAR at a league level, but also on the agenda this year, I noticed for IFab, who's getting together and talking about rule changes, some of the things that the MLS has implemented in terms of like injury, if you stay down for too long, okay, then you need to come off the field, or substitutions and people are not coming along. Those are things that are on the agenda for the rest of the world to adopt in the next couple of years. So, what do you think it is about pro and the MLS that kind of you guys are, again, it's in the first three letters of your name, but progressive and willing to embrace technology or do things different from the rest of the world.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Well, I think a lot of it has been we have a good relationship with the league. A lot of places, the referee corps is here, the league is over here, and they never get together. Um, we've always done things with the league and tried to work with them. Sometimes there's been some crazy ideas that they wanted to start. I don't if people remember some of the A-League games that happened, which was and some crazy rule check-attempted rules that just didn't make sense in the end. But we've been working with them. So a lot of these things are trial, right? They get an approval to be trialed. And we work, well, the pro will work with them. And sometimes we get going and say, look at this, it'd be work better this way or that way. And so that's what happened with video review. We were in on it right away and willing to go uh work with them on that. And then what these new the new rule with the on-field treatment rule and the team substitution, all this stuff gets practiced before. We don't just start the season with it. So in our preseason training, we're testing it out, seeing how it works, making sure that we have some little things, and also it has to agree with law. You can't just also make this up. For example, with the on-field treatment rule. If there's a yellow card, the player doesn't have to sit up to minutes because that's in the laws of the game. So that's not an exception. And same thing if he's the penalty kick taker, that weird one that they're injured. They can those things you can't change. So all this stuff we work together to make sure that the rule doesn't actually break the laws of the game. So they have to work together. So really the league has been very wanting to innovate. We've been willing to work with it. And there's been some things that come and they don't work quite right, and so they get adjusted. And it'll be interesting to see if some of these rules end up in the World Cup, if they vote them in or not. Most everything that we do is to improve the entertainment value of the game. Put it that way. Um, I field favorite rule and time substitution. The main purpose for that is to get the ball back in play quicker. It also helps the referee because how frustrating it is to have players going down late in the game when they're up one or something. And it's you're not a doctor. You can't tell them get up. I know I know you're faking, even though we know they're faking. Come on. Because we know the score, we know soccer, we know you know what's going on, but you can't tell somebody to heal myself immediately. We don't carry the holy spray with us and spray on their legs and make the goal. For example, the eight-second rule that just came in, the eight-second rule, what does that do really? Because referees didn't want to do six-second rule because it used to be six seconds, right? Nobody ever called that, even grassroots. Nobody called it. If you saw it in a grassroots, it was somebody's first game, and then they got told, hey, look, it that is a rule, but you're right to call it, but don't do it ever again. Because who wants to give an indirect free kick level? I don't care if you're going the under eight teams or that in front of the goal where you have to set up a wall. So that law didn't never make sense because the punishment was too severe to put an indirect kick right in front of a goal. And it was a big, it was a mess for the referees to do that. If you ever had to do that where you had to give an indirect free kick inside the penalty area and put a wall on the line, it takes longer. So that rule is really implemented to help the referees and to get the ball in play. Which wants to see the ball in play? Then we know as referees at any level, grassroots, professional, if the ball is in play, people aren't complaining. They're playing.

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SPEAKER_02 14:38

You know, yeah, no, I love it. I love it. I will say it's I think it there's something about being American, like an American ideal. Like in other parts of the world, they look at us and they think that we're cowboys, that we're it's the wild west over here. And Americans, not necessarily the ones who always invent the technology, but they're very quick to embrace new technology and new ways of doing things. It's more of this very entrepreneurial mindset in the United States. And I've heard that from other countries as well is that people are a little bit more conservative and they're adverse to change, where it's a different setup here in the US. We are interested in change and we are interested in making it more entertaining and speeding up the game. And I think it is a positive thing that we do that. And it's see, we're seeing that between pro and MLS. So I do have a question for you, though, because there's a lot of very strong feelings about VAR. I don't want to talk about from the fan perspective because we know them, they're never going to be happy about anything that we do as referees, doesn't matter. But as a referee, when you were a FIFA assistant referee or as a referee in the middle of the field, VAR wasn't there during your time. But do you wish it was? Looking back, do you think it would have been helpful? Would it have changed how you refereed the game as an assistant or as a ref?

Would Past Referees Want VAR?

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Yes, there's always one decision you have that you go back to and you look at the monitor and you go, oh, the the phone. Back in the day, you took a VHS, show how old we are, took a VHS test, backed it up and played it, and then you when you paused it, even with the pause being like it was in the VHS, you could tell on it. I wasn't outside or and there was a call in Seattle by a cost goal line, goal or no goal decision that happened very quickly. I didn't think it would go, it went in, and then when you looked at the video, it went in. It was close, it was pretty fast, but with stop action, you could tell that it was in. So for those, yeah, because you feel bad afterwards, every referee feels bad when they make a mistake or walk away from a game and they go, you know what? I don't think that was a pality gick. And then you look back at even on your phone or something, you go, yeah, that wasn't the best decision. And so for a lot of people at first, I can tell you the first, the referees were a little bit weird. I don't want people checking me out on the stuff. But then when you can sleep at night because you're not worried about a decision that kept the team out or gave three points to someone and did when they didn't deserve it, it's okay because then you say, you know what, I didn't make a mistake, but I got to fix it before the game was over. So that's a big difference in your emotional well-being after a game. And that's where a lot of referees it did help them in some ways. For some referees, probably kept their careers a little longer because they actually fixed it. And sometimes you get left with a bad decision that gets keep on shows up in the newspaper, shows up on video, and you have to you had to live with it the fact that now you at least can fix it. And we don't fix everything, everybody thinks VAR is going to be perfect. We still feel like we miss, you know, but we basically get the decisions. It gives about six percent more accuracy in the data that we have. Let's say the referees are really around 89, 90% correct on most decisions. We talk about all decisions in the game, penalty kicks, fouls, they're about 90% correct. VAR adds another six percent to that or so. So you still got four percent of where you're gonna miss a penalty kick or red card, and when you have 510 games, that adds up to 30, 40 incidents in the year. And you just hope that those aren't the worst ones. That you you hope it's the fifth goal on a 4-0 game where mistake is made, and then nobody cares.

Accuracy, Limits, And Human Error

SPEAKER_02 18:42

Yeah, no, it's an amazing thing. I was talking with Greg before we went on. So I got to meet Greg in person about three weeks ago at the coaches' convention. And at the coach's convention, Pro actually brought a full VAR setup. So they had a video production coordinator working with you, and you got to, for a moment, for a play, got to be a video review, one of the video review people. And so it's an amazing thing. This the technology is fantastic, it's interactive, it's touch screen. But even with all of the views that you have, and at one time, maybe you could be looking at four different views, and your assistant might have 20 in front of them. You're trying to go through all of these different views to find the right angle that gives you something definitive where you could see something clear and obvious. And even with all of those angles, again, you don't have 30 minutes to go through. You're it's about a minute or so, maybe, you know, that they're gonna hold up play looking at this. There's still a chance that you may not see what someone else might see from the stands. We see it all the time where someone's got a fan video from a really interesting angle that the VAR team doesn't have. So there's still the chance that someone's gonna miss something or just didn't see something in that entire melee of stuff that happens on free kicks and corner kicks and things happening in different parts of the field. It no one's going to be perfect. It's tough.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

It doesn't matter at what level you're refereeing, you're not gonna get every decision right. And when you talk about VAR, you're fixing at the World Cup level or MLS level, you're fixing mistakes from people that their job is to be a referee. I mean, that's their pay versus someone who's doing it on the weekend, lumps to do it, and gives their best effort, they're gonna make mistakes too. So it's it's like you can't go with the mindset that you're gonna be perfect. You just do your best you can to be in the best position, to see things, to manage the game well. And that's really the best you can do. And people that when you come to refereeing, it's not always just the decisions like the Pelly Kick or the Red Card. It's about managing the people on the field. And usually the good referees are the better player managers and game managers. The decision making is usually not always what makes a good game or a bad game for a referee. That's just a decision in a game. What really makes a good referee and a poor referee, or whatever you want to, how you want to differentiate it, is their player management, their game management. And that's really if you look at all the professional referees, watch how they manage the players. Stop watching the decisions, watch how they manage the players. And you'll see, you'll tell a good referee from a poor one by how they manage the players and how the players react, the technical staff, how they react. That's where the really the good referees are. And so it's hard to find because you can always teach somebody what a college is. Um, but then how do you deal with the players for the other thousand decisions you make in the game? So that's really where it is.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

Yeah, I want to talk a little bit about that. One of the things that um I think is a guiding principle for VAR, much to a spectator and player chagrin, is you're not trying to re-referee a match. So there may be pulls or pushes that happens off the ball, or maybe it just based on that match wasn't a foul in that match for that referee. How does the VAR team kind of gauge? Okay, what is something clear and obvious? I need to have the referee come to the monitor and look at, because I believe there's been an error here. And what is just contact? And maybe it's a foul on another day in another game, but it's not a foul in this game. What is that guidance that you give to VAR to know when they should get involved and when not get involved?

Managing Players Beats Chasing Perfection

SPEAKER_00 22:22

A good question because that's what separates really the better VARs from the really good ones and the poor ones, is because you can look both of us can look at a foul, and we could say, I don't think it's a foul, and you would say, I think it's a foul. And we both could be because there's some contact there, the subjective, like the level of contact. And as a grassroots referee and all the different levels that you do high school, then a foul in a high school game, for example, might not be a foul in another game, or vice versa, because the level of players and what's expected by those players. Like you look at a pro match, it's not the same as a high school match, because there's certain things that are expected and not expected, right? So one of the things we teach them is look at just because you think it's a foul is not doesn't mean you're going to intervene. Because you still have to say that this just is not a foul. This is just not a penalty kick. Then you have to intervene. You know, that's where the really difficult decisions for VAR is the holding and pushing. Because there's a certain amount of arm battling, whatever you want to call it, jostling, bumping, pushing, shoulder, back that's expected in the game. That's part of it. At every single level you play, people bump into each other all the time. So at one level does it go over the line. And we used to go with to think like is there an injustice by what the player did? Did he gain a huge advantage by doing with some of the foul? And then you need to intervene. And the other thing there where we go with red cards, we go a little bit different than that. With red cards, we look at if you think it's a red card, we'd rather we want you to intervene because we don't want to miss a red card. Because red cards can be the idea of red cards is protect the players, right? And it's a safety issue more to sue. So we're we're more than okay with if the referee goes to the monitor and there's a little disagreement on a red card between the VAR and the because we're told we're trying to protect the players. But we have on every corner kick, you could probably find a foul holding somewhere. Oh yeah. Okay, either way, you could give a penalty kicker or call it going out, but it's not what's expected in the game. And so we do also want the VARs to have a feeling for the game. That's the hardest part. For example, we did have a red card in MLS last year that was in the 89th minute. It was borderline. We called it like we call it basically a Sunday league tackle where a guy kicks the ball and the guy just keeps on going and knocks the guy flat. But the player had been a pain the entire game. And the referee said, I've had enough. You've been doing this all in the field, it's a red card. You can argue whether maybe it's a yellow card or not. Well, we're not going to get involved with that. That's the referee's decision. Right. And so we have to, the VR has to be aware of what the referee's decisions are. And what they've been giving through the game. And you can you we all know if you're a decent referee that you know a red card in the 89th minute is totally different than in the second minute because the second minute has 80 88 minutes of history that's been happy in the game, and players are gonna react totally different. And it may be a red card for game management, where at the second minute people, hey guys, stop doing that, and they stopped doing it. So you're not never gonna get a red card. So the VIRs have to think that way too. You know, we've had we've had reviews for no red cards in the first couple minutes of the game because it just wasn't there. The referee thought he wasn't the second minute, it's not a red card. But if it was the 90th minute, you go, Yeah, the players have been reacting to this all game, and this is a time where it has to happen. So the VIRs are like that too. We want them to have a feel for the game.

Defining Clear And Obvious In Practice

SPEAKER_02 25:51

Yeah, no, I love that. I Greg, you just you're speaking lots of truths there. I think these are things that no, seriously, but there's a those are the truth of something that happens in the second minute of the game is different from something that happens in the 98th minute of the game when it's subjective. Again, if we've got lunging studs up to the knee with excessive force, we all know there's no getting out of that, or a dog so like very clear last, and there's it's like right outside the 18, they're by themselves. Okay, you can't you manage out of that. But the situation you described where there's just all this pent-up energy and emotion, and this can completely boil over if we don't get this person off the field after doing what is a pretty orange or possibly red bow. Yeah, that's a game management decision by the referee who's in that moment, who's no, that's a send-off because I'm done. You've been warned, it's been happening all game, you're gone. We can't allow this to happen anymore because it's gonna get out of control. And the VAR has to be sensitive to that. They have to be listening to it, they have to understand what's going on to be able to support the referee and not get in the way of the referee managing the match that's actually happening on the field. No, one thing I do want to talk about, Greg, because this is something that's really fascinating to me as well, is I think a lot of people assumed, and I think this probably was the case when VA first started, that you guys were actually at the stadiums, that the VAR people might actually have been at the stadium and could hear crowd noise and feel energy and emotions are contagious doing their work. But now you guys have actually moved to a more purpose-built facility for VR. Can you talk about why you've made that transition to a purpose-built facility and what are the pros of being in a purpose-built facility and what could be possibly the drawbacks of that?

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Yeah, we moved to a secret, undisclosed location, and we call it in Arlington, Texas, so we call it Varlington. But we did that, let's see, was it 2018, 2019 when we transferred over? We were in the stadiums at the start for those first years. And can you imagine now, of course, you have to have computer equipment now 30 stadiums, operators in 30 stadiums, technology people in 30 stadiums. So as a scheduling and as a as an organization, it was very difficult, much more difficult. You can imagine during COVID, like to travel people to get people to places. And if somebody has a flight delay, you got nobody else going that can go there, right? And we have that happen, and we have basically every weekend a couple hundred people flying around the country. Um, so we actually first we started in Atlanta and then we moved to Dallas for the dedicated facility. And of course, for scheduling reason, it makes a huge difference. If someone, a flight gets delayed or something, there's another VAR in the room type thing that we can move over there. So that makes a huge difference for us and logistically. It also helps centralize our training that we can give feedback individually after a match to everybody that's there. There's a there's a that idea of train training and also just overall technology-wise, less breakdowns and less issues with that. Look if you if you want, I'll give a little plug for uh if anybody's in Dallas that's a referee, especially, who would like to be a replay operator, which is the operator that when you were in Philadelphia, you sat next to a person who actually ran all the machines for you as you looked at. We always need some new people, and we actually have hired when we first moved to Dallas area, we looked at some of the referees and players there because we want people that operate to understand soccer and understand referee. And so several of our operators that we use in Dallas are grassroot referees and they're doing games on their own on the article, but then they get to operate at MLS matches, and it helps a lot because they understand okay, I'm looking for an offside, they know exactly where the offside is. And I handball, oh, I remember what the hand is here. And so we actually recruited from there. And and I tell you what, if you're if someone's interested, they can probably get a hold of us and we would probably quit put them through their training, and it's a nicely paid job.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

So that's so cool. I do have a question about the so there's the video operator that sat next to me and helped me. Hey, screen two, can you zoom in? Can you give me slow motion on that? Can I see contact point? And there's someone who helps you move the things there. But your VAR, your video assistant referee, and your assistant VAR, there's two for each match. Are those people generally uh people who actually referee matches at the MLS level? Are they people that are just there, they could be anywhere through the pyramid? They might be regional referees, they might be national, they might be pro. It feels like in the Premier League, when I listen, when I watch a match there, it almost always seems that a Premier League referee, whether it's Simon Hooper or it's Anthony Taylor or Michael Oliver, is the VAR for the match in the Premier League. Does pro do something similar where they always have a pro referee as the VAR? Is it similar type 7?

Centralizing VAR In “Varlington”

SPEAKER_00 30:58

Yeah, we have two groups. We have a dedicated group of VAR only's. There's a group of that and a VARs only, system VAR. And then we all our referees are certified to be VARs as all of the assistant referees. And we use them, for example, if they need a break from the field or have a slight injury or something, they'll come in the booth and work that weekend to get a kind of a respite from being on the field. Usually every weekend there's probably two or three of the referees from the field working in the VOR. Um, and then the rest are dedicated to that. And let's see, I'd say half them were former MLS pro referees that basically uh through their time and aged aged down. I don't know if I say not, but fitness desk and communicate. You know what I mean? So I don't want to say that in that way, but there are people that have refereed or coming up. And then we have a new group that we train, like we we have a training program going on right now with 15 referees who are mostly working in the USL second division right now. In other words, they're on a career path of hopefully getting to MLS on the field or to NWCL. I should include the NWCL as well. They're on a career track to get on the field for that. And as part of their training, is they are adding via VAR to their resume, put it that way. And so we train them, and they work for NW in the NWCL League, and with us, we trial them up, and if they're doing really well, we bring them up to do MLS matches. But there is a group of maybe 10 to 15 or so that are on that track to become there. And they their levels are mostly national referees. I don't think we've gone below that. There there may have been, but we open up kind of applications from that group every year because we have to keep filling the gaps that we have. So most of them are dedicated, but everybody who's on the field is trained to be a VR, and then they do come in. It's just like everything. Some people are better better at it than others. You look at us, some people can look at a screen, they panic. You know, they can't make a decision. But then on the field, they're instinctive, right? Oh, but you tell them why was that a foul? They go, because it is. I didn't want a foul. But they can't explain to you. But the VAR really has to be able to dissect things to say, yeah, that's a red card because there was a strained leg, contact was above the knee, and there's was excessive force. The referee who's on the field going, that's a red card because I saw it and it was a red card. So in fact, when VAR came out, some of our better referees were instinctive referees. They struggled mightily with somebody questioning their decision because all their careers, they had been super strong on I call the penalty kick because it's a penalty kick, right? And I stood by my decision. Now they were told all of a sudden that wait, someone got a rear decision. And that threw some of them off. They couldn't, they had a tough time dealing with that because they were always just, you're right. And no one can tell me wrong because there's nobody out there to tell me I'm wrong. But now they had somebody to they could tell them that we're wrong. So that messed with their psyche a lot.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

Yeah, I know the it seems the trend these days around the world, not just in the MLS, but also in the Premier League and other top competitions. The qualities that they're looking for from a referee is someone who's a good game manager, but also someone who can be humble and manage that situation that, hey, no, hey, don't worry, they're taking another look at it. We'll see what it is. And they have to be comfortable in that environment. Yes, confident when they make the call, but also open to the fact that VAR may see something else, whether you're an assistant referee and something's onside or offside or a goal, no goal type of thing. But definitely as a referee as well on the challenges. I think it's so interesting. But can we talk a little bit more about that VAR role? So when I was sitting in that chair, and you here on your program, we get to listen to the completely unedited VAR referee communications that are happening and the fourth officials in there too. There's like a whole lingo that you guys talk about with the APP and like all these different things. Can you talk through like some of the communication stuff that you guys have to learn to be able to be a VR to work with VAR? What are some of those acronyms you use and how are they used in the match?

Who Becomes A VAR And Why

SPEAKER_00 35:07

Some of the stuff all came up from us learning as we started to go through because um timing was important, and then there was miscommunications that happened on the field. Sometimes nobody ever noticed, but we noticed it took longer because of certain things. So one of the ones that we use that I think is only VAR related is the word that we came up with here in the United States, which is called kick point. So we say, give me the kick point. And we did that because we needed something to tell the operator when I wanted to look at offside and only offside. So kick point is basically could be off the head, but the operator understands that that's the point of last touch for an offside decision. So it's a freezing point, right? Because offside is only one moment that matters, right? So they know a kick point is a freeze freeze-frame mark, and we'll tell them to book it. And book it is another thing where they mark that spot in time so they can always go back to it immediately. We found a help because now if we take point of contact, say give me the point of contact, they know that we're not looking for offside anymore. They know that we're looking for a foul, okay, or a handball, because now we're looking to see something where something contacted the ball and hit the hand or the leg, etc. So that just saying those two words, the operator already knows what we're looking for. Okay, and so everybody in the room. The other one, the APP is comes it came into play because that's just the vocabulary of it stands for the attacking phase of play, is what it stands for, or we call it attacking possession phase two. It's basically is the time in front of a goal or a penalty kick that's part of that attack that contributes to it. And where it starts and when it ends is it's subjective because we want there to be a connection between, let's say, a foul and the goal. Because you could have something happen a minute before, and what team had possession for a full minute and then they scored, nobody would say we can't go back to a minute before. That had nothing to do with the goal. It was a missed foul, but in a game, how many missed fouls in the Garrison? How many miss fouls do we have in your game, Gears? How many were you meant to, right? You have every game you're gonna have somewhere. I should have called, I should have blown my whistle, but it's too late now. So that's what the AVP stands for. Just look at where is it in connection to the goal? Do they connect? Is a player lose the ball and then they score by a foul? So that was one of what we came up with. Kickpoint is the biggest one, point of contact, check complete. Why do we say check complete? When we say check complete, the referee understands that they can restart the game, that everything's done. So we don't say check complete until the VAR is actually done. And only one person says check complete, the VAR. Nobody else says it. Okay? And same wise, only they recommend a review, and that's why I say recommend a review. You talked before about different things that we do in this country because of history. We go to the monitor for every decision in in for VAR in the United States. We're the only country that does it, I believe. Because other countries won't go for offside and for a couple other decisions, right? We did that because we're doing it for the fan experience and for people to understand what's happening. In America, we're you we were used to before the rest of the world of officials going to a screen to make a decision, right? We had it in NFL, we had it in hockey, we had it in tennis, right? So we had all these sports that Americans were used to where they saw going to an official go to a monitor before changing the call. When we first started with MLS, we did not always go for offside. But what happened one time in New England, there was a long ball. A guy jumps up, flicks his back on his head, goes to another player who scored a goal. Okay? We look at it, the player who would flick the ball had come from an offside position. So the VIR recommend goes on I recommended on a review for no goal. The player number nine was offside. Okay. Boop. They restarted the game. In the stadium, it said one zero for 10 minutes. On the in the in on the monitor of the program, it also said one-zero. And on the field it was zero, zero. Nobody ever saw what happened. And so after that point, we said, look, it let's go to the monitor so the fans in the stadium can understand what's happening. The broadcasters have a moment to dissect what happens. And that's really why we end up doing it, going to the monitor. It's more so for the fan to fans to understand what's happening. And now it's less important because make the announcements. Something that we started here in this country first before FIFA made their practice ones. We had already practiced it in and we had presented the FIFA as a possibility of doing this. And we had several training sessions with the referees where we would show them a play on a monitor and then they'd have to turn around and make an announcement for it. And so we passed, then it got passed eventually, and then now we obviously do it. And it helped for the spec panic experience to understand what's going on. And it's good for it's good for it's good for the game.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

Yeah, it's interesting. I thought that you guys went to the monitor for offside just because in America, for pro, I should say, I want to be very specific for pro, that you guys weren't sitting around trying to draw lines and determining if someone's one centimeter off based on how we draw a line. You guys were making offside decisions based on is it clear and obvious that they're in an offside position based on the video evidence I have. And then the referee would also affirm, yep, I can see it. It definitely looks clear to me. He's his whole torso is off or whatnot, or his foot is definitely off. Because I felt that was the reason why.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

That's one of the reasons too. That I should have mentioned. It's also the reason to, because it is a subjective decision in the end, right? If you draw a line, it becomes factual. One of the reasons we don't line draw lines, because personally I don't like it, but that's my person, my personality talking. But the we don't draw lines because one of the problems we had early on is that all our stadiums are different. And getting the technology in there to be fair, it didn't really work out. And to be honest, when you put lines down, you can take away more goals. You're not gonna be giving goals.

SPEAKER_02 41:08

And listen, I think it is in the spirit of the game. I like I liked how it was. Now, are you still gonna go to now? From what I understand, has MLS implemented the semi-automated offside technology?

SPEAKER_00 41:17

Not yet. Not yet.

SPEAKER_02 41:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:19

So it's nothing's gonna change for this coming year in regards to that. So that's why the referee goes there to come to the offside position. Usually it's pretty straightforward because we're only getting involved with ones that are we feel are pretty clear. And our VARs and AVRs are trained pretty much to look at the camera angle, the line, the field, and the spacing between the players, and that's where they make their decision. So usually when there's an offside change, it's you look at it and go, Yeah, it's offside or vice versa.

Language, APP, Kick Point, And Check Complete

SPEAKER_02 41:45

I again, I think it's the spirit of the game that you guys are applying. And I I personally I think it's a wonderful thing the way you're doing it. Is it clear and obvious from the video that we're looking at here? And if it's not, then you know, let the goal stand if it's a goal score, because usually it's a situation we get involved in. Just so cool. I do want to ask about one thing. So when I was there in Philly and I'm on the screen and I've a play has happened, and then all of a sudden you're like in, you're like trying to figure out, okay, bring me back to the kick point, the attacking phase of play, whatever it is. And I'm looking and looking, trying to find, figure out things, there's a lot of pressure. I gotta be honest. It's like when you're a referee and you're on the field and you're running, yeah, there's pressure, but you also release it through your body because you're running around the field and you can you ground yourself and you're breathing, and you can take a moment. Yeah, there's pressure, but it's different. When I was sitting in front of that screen, I can only imagine for two hours, you're staring at these screens in this closed room, and there's all these things happening, and you're constantly looking, constantly looking to see what might be happening, if there's something that I need to bring to the attention of the referee, if it's a high-score game, might be a numerous different times to do this, looking for offside, everything, all these things. How do you prep your VARs and A V ARs for the mental marathon, that mental grind that they are going to be going through on a match? Maybe I misread it, but I felt like it was a lot of mental pressure. How do they deal with it sitting in that VAR chair and staying cool and calm and collected?

SPEAKER_00 43:13

Yeah, I forgot to mention when we moved out of the stadiums into a location that they we lost a little bit of that feeling of being at a game. Because even in the boosts that we had and the rules we had, you could hear the crowd cheering when a goal happened and etc. So even no matter where you were in the stadium, you could hear that. And so people at a game, they feel that emotion. You know, like when you go to a game anywhere, you get there, the teams are showing up, you get, oh, okay, I'm getting ready to go, but the heartbeat starts to keep going. And so that happens. So now it was there when it's like you're in a sterile environment, like it's quiet overall, and you're going to a room, right? So the training we do with them is first of all, is we have them look at lots of plays, and they're looking at a lot of plays so that when something happens, they're already prepared for that type of decision. So we've separated all the decisions in many ways into what we think that you get involved with and not like handball. This you see, this is what we expect. When you don't see this, don't get involved with the red cards. If it's serious foul play, these are what we're looking for, serious foul play, and this is our line of revenge. If it crosses over, you go for it. So a lot of things, these things are already in the mind, they know. So that keeps it much more calmer. And you'll hear. Like when you hear an inside video review, you'll hear different people talk more or less by their style. And some one of our best VARs is Kevin Stein, and he narrates the game as if he was a radio announcer because it keeps him in the game constantly. So he's talking about player in the middle, okay, there's gonna be a cross coming. So he's constantly in the game that keeps him emotionally in the game. So when something happens, he's already ready. Our worst VARs are the ones that kind of sit there quietly throughout the whole match, and then boom, something happens. And it's like going from zero to 90 that you're not ready, your heart rate's not ready, and you can see the heart rate. And I should say, I know he said before that inside video reviews, I'd edit it in the audio. Every now and then I do edit out the swear words. Sometimes the VR will look up at a screen and they'll see something and they'll go, Oh, and because they know, oh, this is a big one, it's gonna be a big one. And or like the referee calls a pellet kick when their first thought was out. That's nothing. And they ooh, a pellet kick given, whoa, and they'll some people can't keep it in. So I have to admit, I do get it out for uh to keep it family friendly, put it that way. No, I can only imagine, but there there is a few moments where I had to uh take it on a few choice words, give it but yeah, that's I love it. The best planning for them is to be prepared for pretty much every situation. So during the week, they see every previous situation and that regularly training on looking at handballs, every type of handball you could possibly imagine. And as referees, we could take the most simplest play and talk about it for hours. Go to a referee meeting. You can put one play up there and be 30 minutes later talking about one play, because that's what we referees do.

SPEAKER_02 46:06

It's tough. You brought up handball. I could I could we could look at one play, and again, if we had to write down our answer and submit it, you might look at that play and be like, natural position based on his body movement at the time, whatever. And I might say it was a deliberate action, he was deliberately taking his body. It's serious, it's it can be so difficult, but I think that's again, you know, what you're doing by showing these plays and saying this is the expected decision in this scenario, this is the expected decision in this scenario. So you get everyone on the same page so that when they do see it happen in a match, they can be in alignment together.

Offside Without Lines And Spirit Of Play

SPEAKER_00 46:40

And one of the things that our grounding principle is that the on-field decision is right, okay, unless we can prove it wrong or say it's wrong. So we're already starting at a level that's pretty high up that the referees are not gonna make mistakes. So you said, okay, what's the decision to fail? Penny kick's given, you know, but I have to see that it's not a penalty kick. Not a maybe penalty kick, it's just not a penalty kick, and then I have to get involved. So that line helps a lot. If you just see a generic play and you have to decide is it's a penalty kick or not, you might go, hold on, could be a penalty kick, maybe not. But at least they know that they have a line where the on-field decision is the right decision to start with, and they have to find it wrong. Because they're also the player, there's an expectation that the on-field decision is right from the players. Like, think of it this way it's much easier to give somebody something than take away. Like if I give you a penalty kick and I come back and say, I can take that penalty kick away, you're upset. You gave but you gave me a nice gift. A penalty kick. But if nothing happens, right, and nothing given. I want, hey, I can give you a penalty kick. Okay, great, I'll take it. Thank you very much. Best referee I've ever seen. So it's that kind of perspective is how we have to look at it. The referee is given something, and that's the right decision at that point. And we have to prove otherwise. And so that helps. Like when you went to that monitor, right? You're looking at a and I came over was a foul or something, but you're thinking, would I give a pelly kick or not? Versus, is it clearly wrong or right? Which then makes it a lot easier because you're not going the whole spectrum um pelly kick or no pelly kick. You're just going, is this not a penalty kick or is it a pellet kick versus having to make that decision by live match?

SPEAKER_02 48:17

I would also say I think the decisions are accepted from players a little better than even sometimes a live decision, right? Because everyone's heart rates are up and everyone's like really emotional about it. But usually once VAR says, nope, I've been to the monitor and it's a it's a foul by number 10 in the penalty area, it's a penalty kick. People are like, okay, they've viewed it, they've all reviewed it, they've looked at it, the VAR has viewed it, the referee has viewed it, they looked at it multiple times, they've seen it. Okay, it's gotta be a kick. So I think that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

They bring up the danger of VAR also, which is go take a second look. Yeah, no, no. I know that's something fans go crazy about danger, right? That in some leagues we know is pretty much happening that way. We're not in MLS, we don't go there. It's the VAR when they send them on to it, it's because they think it's wrong, vice versa. And right now, I think we're at 90%. We call it referee acceptance. Another, there's another VA word that they accept the VAR's recommendation and change their decision. Um that 10%, and there where there's a little bit of difference between the two. And we're not always that upset about the 10% that there, because there are some places that I really feel that's a red card. That to me is a red card. And you're looking at it, yeah. But I think that there's a little bit of a glancing blow there. And I saw it live. Um we can live with that because sometimes there is you those things where somebody is the VIR ticket. To me, this is 100% red card, and for you, this you know what? It could be a red card, but I saw it live and the speed wasn't there, or the force quizzes weren't there, and you know what? The VIR's the hardest thing for them is speed and force. Video doesn't show it. That's right, motion makes it look huge.

SPEAKER_02 49:54

Oh my gosh, slow motion makes every single foul look so much worse. I see people will send me videos every single day, Greg. So I get like a U10 game where some girl has been like gently pushed over, but because you're seeing it in slow motion and she's falling down, it looks like she's absolutely crushed. It's like, how is this not a red card? I was like, because it's not.

SPEAKER_00 50:15

It's like just I could send you freeze frames of lots of and you'd be 100% red card, and then I let it, I put it to plenty. Oh, yeah, you barely touched the person. Yeah, so that's what we deal with on a regular basis. But and you know what? The more experienced new VARs struggle hard. It takes them 40-50 games before they can really get that feeling of, yeah, I'm gonna intervene or I'm not going to. So you've got another 40 games to go before we are you.

SPEAKER_02 50:42

I would love to do it. I think I I actually would be pretty pretty good at it. I have to tell you that. I feel like I've got that that in me. I really do. I because I love the whole again, I have a real love for the laws of the game and the applications of the game and the considerations of the game. And just by the nature of my channel, I see, as you said, so many clips, right? So many video clips from so many different angles and so many different age groups, I feel like I would do it justice. I don't know, it'd be exciting. Someday I gotta come to the uh to Barlington and check it out. That'd be fun. You're invited. That's awesome, man. I just so I just want to ask, I mean, if there was any one thing you just want people at home to know about VAR and what you guys are trying to do there or the challenges are, what would be the one thing you want, you know, referees, casual fans to know about pro and your use of VAR here in America?

Pressure In The Booth And Staying Ready

SPEAKER_00 51:33

Then really we strive to keep a highlighter of engine. That we are really trying not to get go down the path of a second look or let's just go have them look at it again. Um, because otherwise we feel well over 510 game MLCs that we won't be consistent. So that's why you when you see a what we call sometimes in referee turns we call it a soft penalty kick, we're not gonna get involved with that. And I'm gonna well that a different referee might not have given that belly kick. And this day, on that day, this referee gave that belly kick and it's on the soft side. Let's say it was a push and it wasn't the strongest on pushes, but there's a push, there's a credible reason why the referee blew the whistle because the player did push or show and they lost the ball. And we're not gonna and that could be frustrating for some people because they go, That's not a pellet kick to me. Okay, yeah, but you said to you, right? You gotta say that wasn't a pellet kick anywhere. Um, and that's where people struggle sometimes with we even red cards or whatnot. That how come the VR didn't get involved there? Because when you think of it and you look at it again, there is a credible consideration for the decision to referee gay. Like sometimes holding, oh we hate holding, right? Like there, because the whole thing about does a holding have an impact or not? If you're running really fast and someone grabs your arm, yeah, it's gonna have an impact. But if you're running really slow, it does nothing. So those are like we don't like to get involved with those, and we don't. And even the coaching staff, the technical staff, they'll argue that that on that's such a soft belt, but then they'll go, yeah, but why didn't my defender do that?

SPEAKER_02 53:10

Why do why they put themselves in that situation?

SPEAKER_00 53:13

And that's what we looked at. And one of the biggest terms that we look use with in all our almost all our decision is impact. Impact is the one that we use because the foul itself doesn't actually impact the player, or the contact, I should say foul, the contact or doesn't actually impact the player or embellishment, simulation. They're good at that. Just like you're talking about in the in the a nine a second-minute red card, eight-ninth minute red card might be different, but for some reason the gravitational pool inside the pelty area is much bigger than anywhere else on the field.

SPEAKER_02 53:47

A thousand percent, man. They don't make it easy with the flopping and falling as they do. Greg, I just had a couple last questions, but we're gonna move into the bonus round as we we close this up. Uh real quick. So if you could change one. I'll take that much. You did a great job. It was so wonderful. If you could change one law of the game tomorrow, what would it be and why?

SPEAKER_00 54:07

I think I know how because we are. I would like to change the offside law, and this is the way I would like to do it. I would like, you know how you have gaining an advantage where like he hits the post, your guy saves, and the guy goes and scores. Right. I would like to apply advantage to all offside. So, in other words, even interfering with play. If there is a defender that's way off 20 yards away, that has kept you on, or kept you off, not there, kept you off. It's like that person has no impact on you where your position is. They're not going to defend you, they're not going to get to you. So it's not affect you. Like you should only be with the players running close to you or something. That we have less offsides in the way. And then also this, I don't want offsides to be a centimeter. So to me, it's if you're if you really got advantage on a player by your position, then it should be punished. But if you're running side by side and you just happen to have a toenail in front of the other player, to me, you're not really getting an advantage. You're not you're not there, you're not interfering with that player. So they still have the same opportunity to tackle you. But then, of course, people argue, but yeah, that one inch might have been what kept him from getting the ball. And but that's just my old feel about offside.

SPEAKER_02 55:19

But I I just have to say, I think offside is just such a it's a brutal law to implement, no matter how you draw up that rule, because again, you were talking about some things that were subjective there about oh, someone in the other side of field. But even with the new, they call it the Arson Banger rule, where it's the whole body needs to be, it's like we're still going to be looking for millimeters of daylight between one player and another. Right. It's it's just it's a hard law to implement as is.

SPEAKER_00 55:43

That's why that's why if you throw impact in there, okay, the guy was slightly off, but he it was he was off to the defender that was 20 yards away, Segvass opponent has no influence on him at all. Come on, let's let them play and score more goals.

SPEAKER_02 55:58

Yeah, I think that also could be said for again the quote unquote the attacking phase of play. If let's say there's a player who's a toenail off, but there was like five or six or seven passes later around the penalty or and they score, do we rule out the goal for that? No, there's just a lot of issues with to say the least.

SPEAKER_00 56:13

Well, multi for me, the rules that just I I like I want more goals.

SPEAKER_02 56:19

I hear you. I hear it. Okay, you you worked on the line in an MLS for a very long time, and then a referee since it's gosh, a national referee since '95. What is the most memorable thing you've ever heard someone yell at you from the sidelines?

SPEAKER_00 56:32

Metro, the Metro Stars in Giant Stadium, and there wasn't always a lot of people there. And I remember one time I was running the line there, and it was an old lady voice that says, I heard yell, I'm gonna get you in the parking lot. Perhaps your 80-year-old grandmother was yelling. And I don't know why I remember that one, but uh, it's one of the ones I remember just because it was like so out of the voice without Mad Rat. You know what I mean? So it was some tough guy and says, I can see the parking lot's a security. It's not like my grandmother yelled at me and said, Hey, I'm gonna get you in the parking lot.

SPEAKER_02 57:08

I know it's a car. So what is wrap up here? What is the best at the end of a match? If you're the referee or you're the assistant referee, what is the best compliment you can receive as a ref? What is something someone says to you that's yep, okay? Good job. Today was a good day.

On-Field Decision As The Starting Point

SPEAKER_00 57:23

Well, I tell you what, I mean, just that anybody saying, good job, well done, how you do well today, is enough for any game to make you feel good on the way to the parking lot. Even just thank you. It's a huge boost for every referee to get that. But I think sometimes it's when they talk about a specific decision. I really thought you got that pellet, especially if it's against their team, that's that hits really nice. So that's like a nice drink afterwards that just lands perfectly. But I think to be honest, like I think I told you there that I have I watch going to my grandson's melee soccer where you know eight kids are right around the ball, and they always have some young 12, 13-year-old referee there. I always walk up after him and I don't have my pro gear on the look. And I goes, thank you for referee.

unknown 58:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:13

And the look on their faces is whoa, what really? Oh, even so for me, that's what every referee deserves after a match is that I don't care who you are, you you're getting in your car and you happen to see the referee parked next to you. Hey, ref, thanks for coming. Thanks for refereeing today. That's all that it makes a huge difference. And it's not gonna hurt you that much. Even as a referee sucked. To be honest with you, most referees don't affect your outcome or your game. But very few times, even in the 14, what do you do, 1400 games? Yeah, maybe you know, five of them, you've actually wrecked it and you'd probably screw one team. But really, the majority, 99% of the games, the referee isn't affecting the outcome, it's the performance of the players.

SPEAKER_01 58:54

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

And yeah, there might be a missed on side, there might be a goal that will cross Ireland, but in the end, it's almost not the referee. But it's if you appreciate 14 games, how many times did you have not have a referee show up or an assistant referee show up for you in your game?

SPEAKER_01 59:09

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:09

And you I always got excited, even as a young player, about playing the game. And if you got there, they looked around and you didn't see the official anywhere, you'd go, Oh, are we gonna play today? And you're worried, and then just somebody pulled up late, it's because they came from another game, and you're happy they're there. And then you go yell at them. So I have a even yeah, I play over 50 here in New Jersey because I think I'm still good. So it's mentally up here. But even then, like I'm looking, I get to the game, and is the referee gonna show up today? Because first of all, if you want to do it hard being, I don't know if you do over 50s. Do you do over 50?

SPEAKER_02 59:45

Oh bro, I avoid the adult over 35.

SPEAKER_00 59:48

If you want a digital match, do the guy do us old guys who first of all think we can still play like we're in our 20s, right? No, it's not only will you deal with me arguing with that, you'll deal with my team arguing with ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:00

Yeah, I don't know. I I've listened I've sworn off the recreational adult soccer for the time. I my last experience was such a negative experience. And I listen, I'm not saying it's all about the players. Like I wasn't in the right mindset to be able to officiate that match. There's such a different mindset you have to be when you're dealing with 15, 16, 17-year-old players where you're still trying to teach them, you know, how to act and how to whatnot. Hey, no, what my call is the call. When you're dealing with adults and recreational, and they do act sometimes very immature and there's just a lot of emotion, whatnot, you have to be so much more of like it in judo or jujitsu, where you're just okay, sure, buddy, but to just laugh it off. You just move on, whatnot. And every little touch is a foul because they want every little touch to be a foul in that game. Yeah, I'm I wasn't in the right mental space to officiate that. I'm sure at some point in my future again, there'll be a time where I want to do that. Right now, good content. I mean, you can't play. Oh my gosh. Listen, man. I but again, at the end of the game, you don't need someone to say, Hey, great job. Just thanks. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, yeah, good job. A little fit, a fist bump, whatever. Hey, mutual respect, great, thank you. That's all you need, and you make a referee's day.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:14

It's one it doesn't matter what level Hanwan for you playing, even if you haven't played. But I tell you what, I wish I and I don't want the mandatory stuff. That's what I like. When I coached my team, I told you, I always will go up to the referee afterwards, but I'm not gonna line you up to go there because then it's forced. Just go up there, even if you did a terrible job, just say thank you for being here, or don't dance you all, shake his hand. You know, I think players and coaching staffs, parents, and just need to do that simple act of respect without being told. And I think we won't lose so many referees. We lose so many referees in one, two years, and almost all of them quote the same thing: the abuse at the field. And it's not the abusing them, it's uh it's adults, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:57

A thousand percent. The adults of the field. Greg, I just want to say thank you so much for making the time to join me and us, this the referee community today on the podcast. I am so excited to see you and pro and your fellow officials this year on the pitch. It's a big year for America, it's a big year for the United States. Certainly, obviously, got MLS kicking off in just a few weeks now, but World Cup coming down. I bet there's going to be a number of your officials from Pro who are also participating in the World Cup final. So I just again want to congratulate you on your success, your unbelievable run with Pro taking us to the future and all the technologies and just being a wonderful human being, Greg. I just sincerely thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:37

I appreciate it being here. Thank you. And I enjoy what you do. I watch them because I love that you do the grassroots stuff that some of these plays that you'll never see anywhere in the world, but hey, they happen on the weekend at the park. That's right. They're great.

Soft Fouls, Impact, And Consistency

SPEAKER_02 1:02:49

That's awesome, guys. Everyone, I hope you enjoyed today's pod. Please remember to support the Rush Need Love2 store online. Everything gets poured back into making this channel possible. Definitely check out the brand new USSF style pro grip socks I put in there. I promise you'll wear these around the house. They're the most comfortable things ever. You'll love them. And as always, I hope your next match is Red Card Spray.