Respect The Call, Change The Game with Kari Seitz, VP of Referees for US Soccer

Abusive sidelines don’t fix bad calls—and they’re driving referees out of the game. We sat down with U.S. Soccer’s Vice President of Referees, Kari Seitz, to break down how “Respect the Call” and Policy 531-9 are changing that story with clear standards, real accountability, and education designed for today’s crews.

We start with the foundation: knowing the difference between a raw emotional reaction and dissent. That clarity matters because early, consistent action keeps matches from spiraling. Kari explains the new video series that teaches practical skills most officials never learn in class—how to read tone and proximity, how to set boundaries, and even how to show a card with presence so your message lands the first time. You’ll hear why empowering young and new referees to act decisively is the single best way to prevent escalation and protect the flow of the game.

From there, we zoom out to the system. Kari walks us through centralized reporting for abuse, fair and age-appropriate sanctions, and league adoption that extends to parents on the touchline. We also explore the U.S. Refereeing Way, a national push to unify instruction and mechanics so referees in California and Georgia get the same guidance on AR positioning, dissent management, and match control. Think modern training modules, shareable vertical videos, and a future “referee passport” to track experience, education, and progression—less guesswork, more support.

If you’ve ever wondered how to stop the churn of officials, this conversation shows the roadmap: consistent definitions, confident enforcement, and a culture that treats referees as essential to soccer. Watch the new Respect the Call videos, share them with your club, and put the standards into practice. We need your help!

Transcript

Abuse Then vs Support Now

SPEAKER_01 0:04

That kind of stuff happened to me a lot and I didn't do anything about it. I didn't because I knew it would if impact me. I would be the one taken off the gate. I would be the one who wouldn't get another assignment. I would be the one as a female that said I was too sensitive. That's not the case now. That is not the case now. So when the level arrives to insulting, abusive, offensive behavior, we do want referees to take action. The system is now designed to support you.

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Meet Carrie: Career And Impact

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Urgent emergency episode. New content has just launched from U.S. Soccer yesterday, and I had a little bit of a piece of part of it, so excited to say, from Carrie Sites and our referee team at U.S. Soccer. The Respect the Call initiative has gotten a huge update. And so we invited Carrie to come onto the podcast for the second time. This is the second time she's ever appeared on the show to talk to you about it, what it is, what it means, and how you can participate. And I am so thrilled about that. You're gonna love this conversation. Honestly, there is no other person on earth that I think could do this job as well as she is doing it. She's absolutely killing it. And I think as you listen to this podcast, you'll understand why. She's fabulous. Before we get into the podcast, if you're an assigner, please reach out to me. I'd love to get you a free demo of the Refer Sports Assigning Platform. It just makes life easy for you as an assigner. Why are you suffering still through Arbiter? Why are you still suffering through some homegrown crap that some random dude who took like Microsoft database access development 20 years ago built for you and makes your referee's life hard? And maybe it works, but it doesn't make life easy. Assigning and accepting assignments and getting your match information should be easy. Please shoot me an email, wrestlinglove2 at gmail.com, shoot me a DM on TikTok and Instagram. Let me hook you up. Let's go through a demo together. We'll make it fun. But I want you to see what a modern day assigning platform is. Again, there's no cost to change. I'll even build you your own website so you look extra professional. Please reach out to me, let me know. And then before I let you go, again, Umpiro. If you guys are not supporting Leland, not supporting Leland Grant, the guy who created Umpiro's, U-M-P-I-R-O, I've got beef, man. You need to try these shoes out. They are by far the best shoes for referees you can wear, whatever surface it is. If it's turf, if it's grass, if it's short turf, long turf, I don't care. I love that I've got one pair of shoes in my bag that looks professional, that helps me do my job on the pitch, whether I need to cut, whether I need to move quick, they're light. They don't get waterlogged like the Adidas Copas do when it rains outside. They are engineered for you as a referee. Please, they have wide widths now. Give them a shot. Go to officialsports.com, use my code refsneedlove2, all one word together. It's like 106 bucks. My gosh, that is a deal. I keep telling him that he's undercharging for these things and he should raise his price at least to like 130, 140. That's what the Adidas Copas are right now. And that's what a lot of referees wear. So get them while you can at a lower cost because these things are phenomenal. Okay. They are built for referees like you and me. And now for the show. Hello and welcome to the Refsneed Love2 Podcast, a show that gives you a real raw and behind-the-scenes view of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch, the referee. I'm your host, David Gerson, a grassroots referee and certified mentor with over 11 years of experience in over 1,400 matches under my belt. You can find me at refsneadlove2.com on Instagram, on TikTok, and now on YouTube. And today we have a special emergency episode. We don't normally have guests on more than one time. It's special just to be one time, but we have got a very special guest for a second appearance on the Refs Need Love 2 podcast, none other than the boss, Carrie Seitz. Now, if you don't know Carrie and you're in the United States, like where you've been living, first off, Carrie is she's widely regarded as the most decorated referee in the history of U.S. soccer with a career spanning over 40 years. Yes, she began her grassroots journey in 1985 in Michigan. Okay, and she rose to the absolute pinnacle of sport, becoming the only referee, male or female, at the time to officiate in four FIFO women's World Cups, 99, 2003, 2007, 2011, and three Olympic Games. Domestically, she was a trailblazer in professional soccer, officiating in the MLS and multiple women's professional leagues. My gosh, and after retiring, you think she's done? No. After retiring from on-field duties in 2013, she then transitioned to global leadership roles to advocate for the next generation of officials. She served as the head of women's refereeing for FIFA from 2016 to 2024, where she led the development of female officials worldwide and oversaw a referee for 15 world championships events. In April 2024, she returned to the domestic stage for U.S. soccer's first ever vice president of refereeing. And in this role, man, she has been a driving force. Certainly the Respect the Call initiative that we've heard a lot about, and certainly the policy 531-9. But my gosh, she's working on comprehensive programs designed to combat referee abuse, improve retention, and change the culture of the game at every level. I will tell you, she has made more impact in her two years than I've experienced in my previous over decade as a referee in this country. And in recognition of her unparalleled contributions to the sport, Carrie was just elected to the National Soccer Hall of Fame as part of class of 2026. Her induction is scheduled for May 1st, 2026, and it is going to cement her legacy as a pioneer who has dedicated her life to ensuring that referees are seen as an essential and respected pillar of the game. Carrie Sites, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Wow, do we have any time left?

Policy 531-9: Culture Shift

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Oh I'm like, I got tears. I'm like, I like tears. I'm so emotional. This is so cool to have you back at Carrie. Carrie, listen, you've been busy. You've been busy. And so a year ago, we were sitting together, probably around the same time, talking about the brand new, updated, I should say, referee abuse policy 531-9, which I think is transformational. And we have more people talking about referee abuse and the culture surrounding referees now than I think we ever have before in this country in a positive way. Can you talk about what it's been like this last year since you've we've implemented that policy?

Centralized Reporting & Fair Sanctions

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Yeah, I certainly can, but I think I have to start by also uh thanking you, David. We've been already a good partner from the beginning, but to have a place where people talk about referees in a positive light and create this space where, you know, parents, coaches, and others can can really get the inside scoop is really powerful. It's not the voice of the federation, right? We're really having to be the structure and the policy and building the infrastructure. And I think what you do is a wonderful compliment. So I want to thank you for the work that you're doing and all the people you've brought in. And really, one of the things that I want US soccer to stand for in the referee department is creating this community and sense of belonging and inclusion and like it is an amazing community to be a part of. Refereeing is something special, it's not for everyone. Although I think more people, if they tried it, could appreciate the game. And we need to work towards making in the old days, people thought of themselves in mentor coaching roles as gatekeepers, but really we want people to be gate openers, and it's just a wonderful part of the community. And we're going to continue to celebrate refereeing. So thank you for all you do. And it really is important. I can't underline it enough. It has to be complimentary because this has to be a special place. And we need, as you said, and it's my belief, we are essential to the game. Back to your question because I do think it's important to make those statements. 531-9 transformative because we took something that really had no teeth, really had no definition, and made it substantial. But it's really uh policy is a step, it's the under foundation from which we build. And there's a lot more pieces that need to go into changing a culture, right? This is years of culture that have built over time that the referees are treated so negatively. I think we if we went back 50 to 100 years, it's quite different than it is today. Social media has its power and benefit, and but it can also be used the wrong way that every single thing is a controversy, and everybody feels that they haven't gotten a fair shake. And the abuses that are happening at the lower levels of the game, it we are taking away from the match itself, right? Even if we pause and we think of the referee in a way that that uh coaches are spectators like we're not human, it takes away from the environment for for from these kids. And of course, nobody uh should ever be abused, period. I don't care what their job is. But there's been a lot of work most recently. Uh, there is a really significant effort in uh to bring together a place where this abuse can be reported in one central repository, and that sounds like it would be really easy from the technology. Very simple. I just take in a report and there's reports systems all over. But who does it get directed to? What information can people see? How does it affect adjudication? How do we make it so that people aren't re-traumatized when they have to go through, especially young people? So that it's actually peeling back an onion, really, and discovering all these layers. I wish everything could go much faster, but we really need each league and club and the organization to get on board with the way that we do this so that it's adopted immediately when it's rolled out. So we're in a testing phase for that tool. We're also getting some feedback. No policy is perfect, right? There's always loopholes. Our laws have been in place in the United States for years and they're constantly adjusting. And there are things that we didn't think about when it was put in place. For example, if you have a nine-year-old kid push a 15-year-old at referee, is the should the punishment be the same as it is for an adult to a youth referee? Is minor on minor the same? Should we be thinking about their the age of that player in their ability to understand their own emotional, just like we are thinking about the referee? That's a question we hadn't thought of. Should a player who's nine-year-olds who just put who pushes a referee, if you do 15 games, they may never come back to the sport. They've moved on. What are some of the options that should be done there? So we when you put your best foot forward and then you start to see the impact, it's not about taking back punishment, but trying to find the punishment that helps change that behavior, but keeps people in the game. And that's a really good example of something that has come up a few times. And what is the right punishment? So that this is also work that's going on. We just had uh the U.S. Soccer Annual General Meeting, and we were able to meet with all the states, this state referee administrators, and start to actually make quite a bit of progress. So you'll see some adjustments to this policy to help ensure that it's it's not only fair, but that it's everyone will support it and the policy will be implemented. And then this, as I said, this tool that we're working on requires a lot of back behind the scenes work too regarding the adjudication and ensuring that anything we put forward is going to really benefit the referees, but also make it streamline the process because if it takes a lot more work from people, they're going to push back. And so everything needs to be simple, clear, and fair. Simple, clear, and fair is what we're I can tell you as an administrator.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

So I review every single case of referee abuse within SoCal Soccer League. And so again, we have 3,500 games on a weekend. And I think I've mentioned to you, even if you have 0.01% cases of referee abuse for every game, all the games we have, it's still going to be three, four, five, six cases per weekend that we have to deal with. But the policy for me as an administrator has made it so easy because I can just look into it and be like, oh, that's a nonverbal violation, policy, a nonverbal level one violation of policy 531-9, and suspension is X. And we actually, so anyone who gets sent off from a SoCal Soccer League match, and we have extended the policy to parents as well. That's our as a league, we've adopted it.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Yep.

Administrator View: Clarity In Practice

SPEAKER_00 12:40

And we encourage other people to do it. But it just makes it very easy for me to say, oh, wow, that's actually a level two, and the suspension is blank. And so it's given us structure and a guidance and language that we can use and a way to be able to differentiate the different things that happen out there. So I think it's made our life as a league, as someone who has to implement the policy a lot easier and cleaner to explain. And again, to take these wonderful videos and the content that's been created by US Soccer and send it out to everyone. Send it out to the parents, send it out to the coaches and to the refs so that they understand the expectations and feel empowered to take action, which is so important. So I really appreciate what you guys have done and what you have released. And I'm telling you, it has made an impact in our lives. And I hope other people are experiencing it too. I'm sure you're getting a lot of positive feedback that's coming back that's saying, thank you for this. We've needed it.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Yeah, yeah, absolutely we are. But as you could tell by the laundry list of things I've been able to do in soccer, it's that's never enough. So we just started. There's always something more. Yeah, because at the end of the day, what do I care about? I care about the game, but I really care that the referees are supported. Who else is gonna champion that? Obviously, all of us need to do that, but it is really truly my job to make sure that we continue to provide resources and support. And again, we make it simple, clear, and fair.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Yeah, I think you know what you've just launched, Carrie, is exactly that. So a year ago, we launched the policy update and explaining all these different levels and making it clearer and easier to understand. But it's one thing to have a policy, it's another people to another thing to teach people how to actually implement it as a referee on the pitch. And that was really big that you launched just yesterday. This is fresh off the press. You're wearing the kit, the respect the call. Can you talk to us about respect the call? So, what is that initiative? So, again, we had the referee abuse policy last year. This year, you've just launched Respect the Call. Talk to us about what that is.

Respect The Call: Why It Matters

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Yeah, and Respect the Call was obviously also baked in. If you've seen the videos, it's baked in and you connected us with this great marketing agency, fuel, and that partnership has really been tremendous because the vision is at U.S. Soccer to create a policy. But what's a policy if it's laying there flat on a table and nobody knows about it? So we needed to bring it to life. And I think the animations were such a great idea because it's a very difficult concept, right? To how do you talk about abuse uh in a way that is not offensive but is clear? And these instructional the rap policy was a great start. So this idea of respecting the call, just starting from a place of okay, let the referee do their work, right? Is that essentially what we came to? And I always knew that the policy itself was not enough, although I think the launch of it was fantastic. The materials, that's what got it passed around. Again, if we just had a flat piece of paper, it would have had zero impact. You really need to market and roll out these projects. The time and effort needs to be just as much on the rollout as it does, which is why, again, your channel is so important. Um, but these particular educational videos, this is where you really expand what the possibilities are. We need to continue to train referees. What's really unique about this, besides the, of course, the animation, is that we really try to speak to a specific audience, right? Our young people. And when was the last time you got educational communication from US soccer to our young and new referees? I'm not sure if they're at, I there must have been in the years past, but I don't remember.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

No, let's just say it like it is. And Carrie, this has been a point of issue I've had for a long time is that a lot of times the education that we do is on the referee who's trying to go regional, national. It's high-level type of stuff. So we are trying to develop great referees. But often it's that other 98% who's just in their first three years that we have this high turnover, who really needs the love and support and development. And I, to your point, the content you're that we've created here is speaking to those referees. Whether they're 14 or 40 and they're just getting their footing, this is speaking to them. And I think that's why it's so valuable. You talk about part one of the series is just managing emotion versus managing dissent, which is a key skill for any new referee. What is that video about? What are you trying to hit with that piece of it?

Video 1: Emotion vs Dissent

SPEAKER_01 17:03

Yeah, I mean, we have to know that there are three levels, right? And we the video one is really addressing the first two. What's the difference between emotional outburst? Because it is human nature, it is a passionate game, ah, you get frustrated versus dissent, right? And and because they are not the same, you have to deal with them differently. And when it comes to emotional outbursts, the fact we shouldn't just let it go without anything being said. We need to remind the players to relax, or it's a moment of a strong look, right? It's it doesn't always have to be shouting at somebody. And then there's a moment where we cross the line from emotional outburst to dissent, and that's where we must take action. And in many times, as a young referee, we don't, right? We probably assume, because I was a 14-year-old referee before, we assume that we did something wrong in some of those cases. That's absolutely true. So we, oh darn it, what did we do wrong? Versus recognizing that whatever we did wrong, this behavior is not correct, and it's going to undermine my authority. And we have to do something. So we really want the referees not to go around and look for trouble, but when the line has been crossed, for them to take action, because it could, in some cases, it can prevent the next level of escalation because we've taken some kind of action. Again, emotional outbursts, you don't have to always say something. It can be just literally don't do that anymore. And then, but when it crosses the line, if we don't take some kind of action, if we don't give the yellow card when it becomes dissent, we actually open the doors for more dissent. So that's really what first the first video is about. Brilliant people to take action of some kind in every situation.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

Well, the cool thing about this, Carrie, this is the first video I've seen of it of its kind. There's nothing out there like this. Again, there's been with videos about, okay, with the beginning of the season, if we're we've changed considerations for offside, we see, okay, this is what offside looks like. Okay, we've seen challenges or handball laws or something like that. These really are the first videos that deal with the biggest issue confronting our referees. And the biggest issue why we lose so many referees is dealing with dissent. Obviously, there's abuse, but even just dissent, because if you don't deal with dissent, it becomes abuse. Figuring out, okay, what's just normal atmosphere versus yes, this is persistent dissent, or that is loud and it's so aggressive in its tone, or it's proximity to you that it's dissent. And this is the first time we've really started to define those things. And I think it's so important, especially for new referees who have never experienced this. Now they can watch the video and be like, oh, that's what that is. I can take action. I'm empowered to take action on that. And I love that. So the so that's part one is figuring that out. So next one is now, okay, we've got dissent. Now what? It's handling dissent. So what is part two about?

Video 2: Handling Dissent Confidently

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Yeah, it's really about stepping in with confidence. I think that's actually the language we use on the video. So that you're using the word right, empower. We need to empower people to take action. And that's the close of each of these videos. And what does that mean? You got to come prepared to the game. You got to help yourself in a way, right? So I think it even talks about knowing the laws of the game, looking good, feeling the part. And when you decide I'm going to do something, even if deep down inside you're like, oh shoot, I'm not sure if I'm right. If you step in with confidence, you deliver that card in a way that shows that this isn't tolerated, you will have a big impact on the game. So it's really putting yourself out there and giving, delivering that yellow card in a way that gets the impact you want back, right? The reaction you want back, which is no more. No more. I'm setting the tone for the game. This is a line you've crossed. And we want our referees, when that happens, to absolutely take action. And we believe then, and we know that in many cases, not all, because sometimes games have their own way, or a player has already made a decision about what their behavior is going to be. But many times it prevents us from going to the next level that you know what I'm talking about. But it prevents that behavior because you said no more. Think about being a parent. And when you get in early and you stop the behavior, it prevents some problems. That's the same concept here.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

I love the line. Can we go back for one second? You said a player makes a decision about what their behavior is going to be. Because I think some players do that, and certainly coaches do that, and spectators as well. And they will do that until someone takes action. That's right. So big they made a decision. This is how I'm going to coach, or this is how I'm going to reference, this is how I'm going to play.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Well, no, it's about pushing you to your absolute limits. Well, let's just get more early. I already know how you're going to behave, right? You're acting in this way. Let's just nip it in the bud right now.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yeah, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

It's about drawing the line. And we do talk about managing. It's not always throwing a yellow card. I want to be really clear there. It's not always, but when it's descent, it is a yellow card.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Yeah, I I've had games where I've had coaches first call, there's a moan and groan. Second call, there's a Moan and groan. And it's it's not too loud. But then the third call, there's another sound. And I'm just I stop. I'm like, coach, we are not doing this today. This is not happening.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

That's exactly what we're talking about, David.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Yeah. And then they stop. They're done because they're they've heard that this referee is not going to take it. But there are so many people out there who just push and they see what they're going to get away with. So I love that you said that they make a decision with their behavior, but we have to take action. Like it again, the emotion you talk about the atmosphere or the emotional outburst. Okay, that's the sounds of the game. That's atmosphere. It's expected, but dissent is something else. And I love that we're laying out, okay, this is what dissent is. Okay, take action. You're empowered to take action. I will say one other thing that's so interesting in this video, Carrie. I believe you also show people how to show a card. Because that's really not usually trained. Can you talk about why that's important too? It's not just deciding to show a card, but how to show it.

Showing The Card With Presence

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Thank you for that question. As I said, I think everything you do on your face and your voice and your body communicate something. And if we communicate the yellow card more than just handing it out like in somebody's face, we actually communicate that we're drawing a line. Um, and so we talk about the distance, we talk about putting your arm above your head and really making eye contact because your the yellow card is a signal, but you are a your whole body in the way that you operate is a signal that you know what? And again, you might feel not the confidence inside, but bring it to the outside and you will have a greater impact with your yellow card. So that's part of the reason we want to do that. It's giving, especially new and young referees the confidence and practice in the mirror. I don't know that we say that in the video, but I do recommend that. I used to love to practice my signals in the mirror and practice the face. And these are all little tricks that help you feel prepared when you get in the game so that when you give that card, when you have to make that tough decision, you feel good about yourself.

Real Case: Responding To Abuse

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Yeah, I would also say find a referee you admire and watch them too. I tell you, the first time I went to see Tori Penso live at a match, I had tickets for front row. My family got me for my birthday last year, and Tori was in town with Atlanta United. And just watching how smooth she was in the delivery and her signals, and then her use of body language, her facial expressions, the way she managed the players, transformative for me personally as a referee. And I've actually adopted some of my style to emulate her. Exactly. I feel a kinship to how she manages a match. And everyone's different and everyone's style is different. But find someone you admire, watch them closely, and then see how they deliver a card or they deliver their signals and they do their game management. It's really powerful. So we talked about in that video again showing the card, how to show the card, drawing that line. The last one is responding to abusive behavior. And Carrie, I'm just going to tell you a real short story, real quick. So I had a report of abusive language that was said to a female referee this weekend. And I don't believe the female, and I know for a fact the female referee did not show a red card and write a supplemental report. And it was specifically the coach was yelling out, you're screwing the game, and then said this is why women shouldn't ref out loud. And supposedly this was heard from the opposing sideline. So this was said loud enough, she should have heard. Now she's supposed to be a great ref and wonderful ref. And that was also in the comments as well. But we still have an issue where people are hearing abusive language and they're not taking action. Can you talk about why it's so important to respond to abusive behavior?

SPEAKER_01 25:36

First of all, respond with probably why we haven't done that. And before this policy, you were not supported. So it became this cancer in a way where it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. We didn't take the action, so people did more of it. And I will never blame us, but the system behind did not support the match officials. And that's what's different, and that's what we need to keep reminding our referees. There was a policy in place to protect you. So we need to give them the confidence that we want them to take this action. So that's what you and I are doing right now. We're telling them that we want them to take this action. That kind of stuff happened to me a lot, and I didn't do anything about it. I didn't because I knew it would if impact me. I would be the one taken off the game. I would be the one who wouldn't get another assignment. I would be the one as a female that said I was too sensitive. That's not the case now. That is not the case now. So when the level arrives to insulting, abusive, offensive behavior, we do want referees to take action. The system is now designed to support you. There could be outages from time to time, but we're going to keep working to make sure that every club and league is doing this properly. Most of our referees nowadays, vast a vast majority now, uh can't remember the exact percent are young referees.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

Yes.

Retention, Safety, And System Support

SPEAKER_01 26:58

And those young referees, 60% of them leave because of abuse. We can never get ahead if we are churning through referees like the way we are today. And we get more young referees because we lose referees along the way. So we really, the system is being transformed to support referees. We want them to take the action. There might be a reason she didn't feel safe, and it's probably worth a question to ask her why would she not take the action and give her the support? One of the things in our final video it talks about is about reaching out to somebody to support you, to work with your SRC or your assigner. Don't just let it go. Even if you write the report, physically have pick up the phone. People do that anymore. I think pick up the phone and have a conversation because it is very difficult. And most people in their life never receive abuse. Most referees do receive abuse. And you need to talk to somebody about it. So it's a great question to ask her. Uh, what are we not doing that makes you feel that you couldn't report this? Let's get to the bottom of that so that we can change the mentality. Well, this doesn't just because we have a policy doesn't change overnight. We really have to take the care and the responsibilities for these individual match officials to understand what it will take and how we can help them take the right action next time because we want to keep them. She's going to deal with something like this again, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

And that's totally my reason for follow-up with the assigner and the referee as well is I want you to know this is unacceptable. You do not have to deal with that. It is a straight send-off. You hear that language, they are gone, and you we've got your back. I don't care if there's not another person who's this a club carrying coach or manager who could step in and the game has to be abandoned, then the game has to be abandoned. That's it. I don't care. And it's going to take a long time. Like you just talked about, Carrie, and it breaks my heart. There was a time when you were told just to eyes open, ears shut, don't be so sensitive. Just deal with it. That is not the case anymore. And it's going to take what's going to be one ref at a time and one game at a time and one league at a time, one association at a time, and before we really change the entire culture of football in this country and hopefully eventually the world. But it will take time. But it's so wonderful having you lead this change and be so public about it. Can I also say, too, you're everywhere, Carrie? I swear. I feel every week I see you at some other event and not just like national, like big FIFA matches. You're at trainings. I think I've seen you like from California to Florida to everywhere in between. I mean, you're out there, Carrie. You're making it happen and trying to live this message personally too.

Learning Modules For All Audiences

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Yeah, I feel like I'm putting my face on this program, if that makes sense. So I I and I want to, there's more to the respect the call is an element of what we're trying to do. You said it very well. It's really my mantra in a way that referring our referring is essential to the game. Yeah, we are not the most important. We are not the players, right? They are the most important, but we are essential. And if the world really believed that we were essential, they really believe that the behavior would be quite different. The investment would be different, the programming would be different. And I'm working towards a world where that's in fact true, that people believe we are essential. And it's going to be an amazing journey, and there's lots of places to push on that. Sometimes the hardest part is just prioritizing where to start. But this is clearly the biggest the safety and the protection of the match officials. Because if they're essential, the our coaches would be modeling respect of respecting behavior on the sidelines. We'll get there. It's foundational is that we will by the end of the week, there'll be some modules that you can direct and anybody on this can direct or themselves go to and check out some modules. Actual learn about this. You can watch the three videos and then there's some learning around it so that you can change your own behavior. You can be part of the solution. Anyone around the game, the referees themselves. The videos are written for the referees, but by watching it, you'll be better informed. You'll also understand what we're looking for. What is dissent? I've got people thinking insulting is dissent. Insulting is not. It's clearly in the laws of the game as a red card. So we're going to have to be helping the public as well.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

Yeah, I love that. So this is an amazing initiative, and I know you're really busy. You've got a lot of things going on for you. Can you talk to us about the U.S. referee way? So I was at uh the referee experience at the coaches convention a few weeks ago, and Matt and Cara, two of your wonderful people, talk about opening the door to U.S. soccer and the leadership for referees. You've hired an amazing team of people who are open-minded, easy to talk to, very smart, very accomplished as well in their own right and responsive, which is fantastic. But there's something being talked about now in our trainings about the U.S. refereeing way. You talked to us of what's involved with that and what are we going to be seeing on that over the next couple of years?

The U.S. Refereeing Way

SPEAKER_01 31:56

Yeah, absolutely. So as an organization, as a refereeing program, we're really fragmented, just like the leagues and clubs, right? There are thousands and thousands of groups with very different ways of doing things. And because there's been a vacuum at U.S. soccer for many years in the refereeing department, each state, each club, a bunch of people are hiring referee educators. I don't even know what their background is in some cases. And they've been doing a great job of filling in the holes and creating content to help with education because the federation hadn't been doing that. Um, and what that means though is that we've really created there's a lot of resources. Some of them are conflicting, some are some of them are aligned. But imagine a handball presentation. We have at least 55 different states with 55 different approaches. How can that help unify and improve our refereeing? But what if we had specific ways of officiating that was the same across the country? I remember my one of the first seminars I attended when I arrived because really trying, as you said, I go everywhere. I'm trying to see what is it, what's the referee experiences, where do we, where are the opportunities that truly exist? And we had simply on-field training session, and there's a foul near the penalty area, and some assistant referees raised the flag and others didn't. It was not clear. And I asked everybody, what's the instruction? I'm coming from another place. What are you being told? And everybody had a different answer. And it made no sense. Some here's why. And or others were just like, nobody's ever told me. So I just thought I put my flag up, right? And I thought to myself, well, that's the simplest one. Let's go with what is the job of the assistant referee? And let's have let's create something, the US refereeing way, where this is the expectation nationally on all of these individual details. So, for example, one of the things that'll roll out later this year is about assistant referee positioning. When do I go sideways and when should I be facing the field? Again, even at the highest level, there is not consistency in our country. And I thought, well, let's talk to our top assistants and let's write it down and then let's share that with the community. So the U.S. referee is literally going to be practical. It's going to be the kinds of it consistent and unified across the country. So U.S. refereeing way. And that'll be distributed both at the high level and also at the I don't like to say grassroots, but at the everyday on the field referee, right? That also needs that same education. And frankly, if we start it earlier, it's going to have an impact all the way up the chain. So you shouldn't be asking me as a national referee when do I go sideways and when do I face the field? Come on, should we already know that? But we don't have a consistent way of teaching it.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

So that is going to be, and then the full so that's what U.S. referee way is, but that's always done with the the idea of gate opening, belonging, inclusion. So there's a philosophy behind being part of the U.S. refereing way that which shouldn't be different in Montana than Texas than Idaho. So we want to bring those things together. And it ultimately, David, it also saves money.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Yeah. Oh, big time.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Right. Saves money. So I have to get another coach to write up a presentation on this and have their own point of view. It takes a lot of time and resources to do that. But what if we had a portfolio of stuff that you can use? So we're going to be moving from just an organization that licenses you, right? We just get your license and you go, but to an ongoing education model with a process that's specific for our country and consistent. That's what the U.S. referring way is.

Consistency For ARs And Education

SPEAKER_00 35:28

Well, I think if you just look at this initiative on the respect the call, if we asked the 56 SRCs to come up with training on this, there's no way they would have come up with these absolutely engaging, beautiful animations. Everyone would be using different language, everyone would have a different bar for what is and what is not dissent. And now we've got some uniformity. And whether I'm in California or in Georgia, we're all using the same language. We're all pointing to the same tools. We're all doing things the same way. And that's gonna, it's just gonna make it easier, make it easier for everyone to learn when we're getting together as a referee crew and we're talking, we're giving feedback, we're using the same language to each other, whatnot, or we're referring people. Oh, did you see that video? It's like it's and we're all talking about the same video. It's like that's the kind of thing that really brings us together as a community, and it's so powerful. Carrie, I know you got to get running. Just a quick question because we don't get to chat very often these days. I know you're running everywhere. Any other major changes that you think we'll see before the end of 2026 and 2027? Will there be any updates at all to the grassroots regional, national levels? I know we talked about that briefly the last time you were on the pod. Any updates there?

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Yeah, but I want to close with one other thought on the call call video. I I want you to and your audience to know that was created not in a vacuum with just a couple elite referees and working with yourself and fuel. We actually also workshopped it. So we took it to young referees in Georgia, New Hampshire, Massachusetts. And actually, the that was the magic that I think really helped these videos land. We'll find out when what the impact is. But we don't want to build things just ourselves, right? And then it actually this is also an important part of it. While I have experience working at FIFA, I've been working with elite referees for a long time. We need to balance that with people on the ground and getting that input. So this is also part of the US refereeing way that when I say inclusive, helping to really create the materials. This is not just coming from high and down on into the group, which was maybe how things were done before. So I just want to emphasize that.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

No, no, there's no no one in this country at this point in time, I think would say that you and the referee leadership that we have now at U.S. Soccer is only focused on the elite national or regional referees. I think the content, the programming, even the packaging of the content is you've created something that's really easy to consume, easy to watch. It's quick, it's fast, it's informative, it's engaging, it's easy to share, which is really important too, because we want to bring everyone in the community together. And you and your team definitely deserve a lot of kudos for that. It's been wonderful to watch. And I've been thrilled to be a little bit of a part of it. But it's again.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

Yeah, and we again thank you for all your help. And we're looking to create also even the vertical videos, right? Easier to share.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

Yeah, no, big time. No, it's so easy. I posted on social yesterday, I'll be posting more today. Carrie, any other big things coming up that we want to keep our eyes open for?

Co-Creation With Young Refs

SPEAKER_01 38:24

We do have a lot of big things. A lot of it is boring stuff, it's infrastructure things. And I say it's boring, but they will power a transformation for us. So we definitely know. I can tell you clearly, we know that we need to have a more, let's say, layered pathway for referees. We we know that is absolutely true, David. But how do we do it in a way that's sustainable? I know that's a crummy word, a boring word, and it builds on the soccer ecosystem, right? So we're doing its own thing, and then the development of a player pathway is quite different. So there's a couple of things that we're doing to support where we're gonna. I could easily just take that 98%, make cut it in half, and now we have two, two, two, two levels. But what is the correct way to do that? So, one is there is some work being done at US soccer with our the member organizations, and I'm sure as somebody has connected to the soccer ecosystem, you're aware of this. There's some work between these organizations to try to streamline the pathway for players, and that work should be informing our referee pathway. Um, because the truth is the way a very healthy system would have, I don't want to say limiters, but referees would have to earn promotions, right? So that you can't start and be assigned to an under-19 final or first year. Doesn't make sense. That's also a way that we use ref lose referees. It's not just abuse, it's actually by not having a functional system. Yeah. So one, we're we want to we're working with that pathway so that referee can be informed. The other thing is that we truly need to collect and have something like a referee passport to use that concept.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

So I know which games you've done, I've known which courses you've taken, I know which extracurricular activities you've done to improve yourself as a match official. And games plus that, plus maybe fitness, depending on what level you are, actually earns you the promotion. And there's some automation behind it. So we're also building the infrastructure to make that kind of thing possible. So hold tight. We're trying to make this something that would be a long-term, well-informed change in the pathway.

SPEAKER_00 40:41

I love it. Now, listen, everything you talked about.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

Yeah. Yeah. And we're in progress.

Pathways, Passports, And Automation

SPEAKER_00 40:46

I I appreciate that. I know it's a it's an important, it's an important one for me personally and the referees that I work with, and I really appreciate you taking that on. Carrie, listen, I need to get you back to continuing to make amazing things happen for U.S. soccer. I really appreciate you taking the time to sit down with me and our community today. I again, I want to encourage everyone out there, ussoccer.com slash respect hyphen, the hyphen call. Again, you can Google it. You know, it's you can find it out there. And also, Carrie, you completely redid the referee website for U.S. soccer. Everyone out there, you can go and you can now watch the handball presentation from Hesse Bahamas out there. You can go watch the form the sell webinars that were all done by U.S. soccer this past year. So Carrie's got all this wonderful information she's put there for us, all these education webinars you can learn to go get aligned with how we're training this at the U.S. soccer level. I encourage everyone to check it out. And again, Carrie, thank you so much for coming here today. Thank you so much for everything you're doing for the game. You are just continuing to be a trailblazer and an amazing leader for everyone here in the country, but also I think around the world. Again, my sincere gratitude. Thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

My pleasure. And thanks for your partnership. And we're all building this world, a better world for our referees. And it's gonna take a village, should I say that? So anything that anyone can contribute, like you said, any individual referee, not only watch the videos, but pass it on to your friends, coaches, spectators. That's how we can create some momentum. So everybody can be a part of this change for the good.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

Excellent. All right, guys. Hey, I hope everyone enjoyed today's pod. I really cannot encourage, like, just I beg you all, please, please watch the videos and then support your local referee community in implementing the referee abuse policy. It is more than just words on a page, it is actions that are happening every single time we have people out in the field, especially our young referees or even just new referees out there, and specifically our female referees as well, who face just an inordinate amount of abuse and misogyny and chauvinism out there. Take care of them. Okay, if you've got a woman or a young teenager on your crew, please take care of them and show them the way that we need to move forward with support and love and empowerment. Gosh, again, thank you guys so much for being here. And as always, I hope your next match is Red Card Freight.