REFS NEED LOVE TOO
An honest perspective from the 3rd team on the pitch... the referees. Through humor, analysis and education, we are slowly changing how people view referees and officials in all sports. We care and have a love for the game as much as any player or coach. Sometimes even more. Youth soccer (proper football) is a multi-billion $ industry in the US. Tremendous money is spent on players, competitions, travel etc., but almost nothing spent on developing the next generation of referees. I hope that this Podcast inspires, educates and humanizes the next generation of referees for their own development and appreciation from the players, coaches and spectators they need to work alongside.
REFS NEED LOVE TOO
Premier League Referee Scott Ledger on Longevity, Learning and Love of the Game
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A soldier-turned-official sets a six-year goal to reach the Premier League—and makes it! Then he does an even rarer thing: he stays for over 15 years! We sit down with Scott Ledger, a 500+ appearance Premier League Assistant Referee and FA Cup Final appointee, to unpack the craft behind elite officiating—how preparation, humility, and sharp eyes under pressure create credibility when tens of thousands are judging every move.
Scott takes us inside the modern toolkit: pre-match data packs that map set-piece patterns and passing lanes, film study to anticipate offside traps and screens, and the small human edge of knowing players’ first names to defuse tension. He breaks down why “looking switched on” matters as much as getting the call right, especially for assistant referees who spend long stretches semi-active but must sell a complex decision in a heartbeat. We also explore the mental game of VAR: delayed flags, instant feedback, and the rubber-band reset that helps him let go of the last check and lock in for the next one.
From fitness to field craft, Scott explains the lateral speed work, GPS targets, and position resets that keep him aligned with lightning-fast wingers. He shares the culture shock of moving from Sunday League to the Premier League’s event-level logistics, plus a fan encounter that turned into a mini laws seminar. And he pitches a smart IFAB tweak to curb time-wasting on goalkeeper “injuries” by forcing a teammate to leave—small changes that could protect game flow without gimmicks from goalkeepers.
It’s a candid, practical masterclass for referees, coaches, and football obsessives who want to see the game with clearer eyes. If you value preparation, composure, and the pursuit of marginal gains, this conversation will sharpen how you watch—and how you work. If you've enjoyed it, please follow the show, share with a ref friend, and leave a quick review to help more people find us.
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My only thing I'm addicted to is football. Not from a referee's point of view, just from a fan. So I kind of got addicted to it that way and then fell into refereeing. So my football background helped. I started refereeing when I was 26, so I had a little bit of life experience being a soldier for seven years. So that helped as well. But I just worked at it, worked at it, set goals, set short-term goals, long my long-term goal with Premier League in six years, which I thought never achievable besides I did it. And I just kept pushing on, working all the time, learning from colleagues. I think the most, the best advice I could give, the two best advice I could give is just to watch as much football as you can and learn from your colleagues.
SPEAKER_01If you would have told me four and a half years ago when I started this channel that I'd be interviewing Premier League referees, I would have been like, okay, that's a bit far-fetched. But it's happening. That's right. You are gonna love this episode. We got to interview Scott Ledger, who is currently a Premier League referee and an Iron Man. He has refereed over 500 matches at the highest level in the most competitive league in the world. And he's a wonderful guy. And I think this is one of the fun things, too, about all the things I'm getting to do is I'm getting to meet referees from around the world. And one thing Scott said at the end of our interview after we finished recording is like, man, I felt like we could have just been hanging out at a pub. I'm like, yeah, it's because when you're a referee, you're instantly fast friends with any other referee. Last night I had a high school game, it's a competitive game. I mentioned a little bit on my channel. We have two red cards at the end. But the referee I was working with, Miguel, I've never met him before. Okay, he's another referee in my city, but he lives on the other side of town, about like 45 minutes an hour away from me. We've never ref together before. But he was amazing. And I think I could go, like I can be best friends with Miguel. Like he was wonderful. He was intelligent. He was a great partner. We worked awesome on comms together. We really managed this very challenging match. Everything was going smoothly until the last two minutes when a couple kids decided to throw fists, but that's a whole other story. But that being said, like I loved Miguel. Like loved him. Like he was great. And I often find all of these referees from every background. Now, Miguel was originally from Peru, and I've met referees from the Philippines, and I've worked with referees from Mexico and all over Europe, and of course, all over the United States as well. And it's like as soon as we meet and we're working a game together, we're good buds. And we're we're partners on the pitch, but we're partners in life. We have this shared thing that connects us all. And Scott was no different. Yes, he's a Premier League referee, but he is a regular guy who loves the game and loves what he does. And I think you're gonna really enjoy the conversation. Guys, before we get into the pod, I just got to tell you if you have not gotten a pair of my new referee socks. They're the USSF, two striped socks. I spent two years designing these things. They are the most comfortable things ever. Dude, I will just wear them around the house. They have this unbelievable like softness to it, but padding, and then it's got the grip on the bottom, like the pro grip, like bottom that footballers need to be able to stay confident on your feet when you're making cuts and running. You are gonna absolutely love these things. It's got a gradual compression that puts the pressure exactly where you want. And I got the compression at such a level that it's not overly constrictive. Okay, it's not medical great, but it feels great and keeps you performing at your best. You need to check them out. Right now on my website, it's a buy one, get one half off. You will not be sorry. Everyone needs these socks. Please get them before they're gone and out of stock. Also, a reminder, guys: if you're gonna get the socks, make sure you get the shoes too. Um Piro, U M P I R O. You buy them on Official Sports. Again, I wear them every single match. I am light on my feet, I can make all the cuts that I need to, and they look really good. They're referee shoes designed for referee by a referee. Check them out. And then, lastly, again, refere sports. If you're in the assigning world or you work with on the board of an organization that has to do assigning, it makes it so simple to change. They will literally set up a website for you. Okay, they make it easy for you. They give you an app, they give you the website. It is all like modern and clean and does everything you'd want to be able to do in an app. So not only is it great for you as a designer, but it's great for your referees too. Why make life difficult for people in this day and age? Guys, again, thank you so much for supporting this podcast. I get messages every single week of people telling me how much they enjoy the show, how much they're enjoying the podcast, how much they're enjoying the channel, what it means to them. Every night, like I'll have people, like especially at high school, have someone come up from the stands and, like, hey, but referee, I just want to tell you what your channel means and how it makes me feel, and that there's someone else going through what I go through. I just say it all the time, but I mean it. I love you. I love you, I love you, I love you. Thank you so much for your support. Thank you so much for allowing me to do what I'm doing. As a full-time king, yes, I work for SoCal Soccer League, but this refsneed love to income that I get from this channel enables me to take a job like I can with SoCal Soccer League. So thank you so much for your support. Thank you for supporting the shop, but refsneedlove2.com. I just I cannot even begin to describe. I am living my best life, and it is all because of you. Again, thank you so much and enjoy the show. Hello and welcome to the Refsneed Love2 Podcast, a show that gives you a real raw behind-the-scenes view of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch, the referee. I'm your host, David Gerson, a grassroots referee and certified mentor with over 11 years of experience and over 1400 matches on my belt. You can find me at refsneedlove2.com on Instagram, TikTok, and now on YouTube. Today, we are joined by a very special guest, none other than Scott Ledger. Scott is a highly experienced and accomplished pro assistant referee who has been in the English Premier League, the top flight, since 2009. 2009. He's accumulated more than 500 top flight appearances in 17 years. That is older than my youngest son, who drives his own car at this point. Scott has also served across the English Football League in major domestic cup competitions, including the FA Cup, where he was appointed as an assistant referee for the 2023 final between Manchester City and Manchester United at Wembley. Ledger began his refereeing career after leaving the Army in 2002 and worked his way through the pyramid, eventually established himself as a long-standing select group assistant referee. Tomorrow night, he'll be officiating Manchester City versus Nottingham Force at the Edehad, but today he is here with us. Welcome to the pod, Scott.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, David. Love the intel, by the way. Love it, excellent.
unknownLovely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thank you. Amazing. Give me ghost pumps at times. Yeah, enjoyed that, mate. Thank you for that.
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SPEAKER_01Thanks for the intro. You're amazing. Oh no, it's a pleasure. Certainly, you've done amazing work in your own right. And it's just unbelievable accomplishment. To have that kind of long-standing performance at the highest level is exceptional. In any line of work to be like that is unbelievable. But I do have a question for you, Scott. I was just at our SoCal Soccer League State Cup finals this weekend in sunny Southern California, and this is for the younger age groups, U7 to U12, okay? A lot of tears, a lot of cheers, a lot of emotion without a doubt. No doubt. We had so many games going to penalty kicks. You could just hear emotion eruption all over the place. So you, referee in very challenging environments throughout the Premier League, throughout your professional career, what do you think would be easier for you at this stage? Is it stepping in on a U-10 cup final, or is it going out there in a professional Premier League environment for a regular match day? Which one do you think would be tougher for you?
SPEAKER_00It's gonna be a quick, pretty quick answer. So on Sunday, I was involved in Arsenal Chelsea, huge Premier League game. Yeah, really challenging environment. Lots of expectation for us and my team, and obviously working with Devin, my referee and Akeel, the other assistant, really challenging. I would certainly rather do that game than any U10 final. Honestly, no, so I still operate, I still referee locally in my town in the north of England, and the challenges you get, even though obviously with my profile in my town, people know what I do for a living, I still get a lot of grief. So if I'm getting it, what chance have the other referees got? But yeah, the only one answer I would rather do Arsenal Chelsea than any U10 final.
SPEAKER_01I'm telling you, man, I joked before we got on the pod. We had a former MLS pro referee, phenomenal pro refere, working a U10 final. And we had someone come over to the referee in the like the main headquarters tent and say, Hey, you need to get someone out here to watch this guy. He doesn't know what he's doing. It's like, are you kidding me? Yeah, yeah, sure, we'll be right there.
SPEAKER_00Love that. Love that. I it's the challenges we get as match officials. It's we can't keep everybody happy. It's just walk off all ducks back into it. So we'll just get on with it, don't we?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. I do want to ask you some questions about your longevity. So it is it is hard to get to the top, and it hard is not even the right world. It is almost impossible to make it to Premier League or in our country to be the MLS. You are in the 0.001% of officials when you get there. But you didn't just get there, man. You have been there for over 500 matches in the top flight in the Premier League, which is just insane. Okay. Some people get lucky if they sniff the pitch for one game and never make it to the pros. You're there for over 500 matches. So I really want to understand from your perspective what enables someone to make it to the Premier League level, but be able to stay there and have a long career there. Do you have any like secrets or tips that you could share?
SPEAKER_00It's the biggest secret everybody can ever use is just you work hard. So I I was never interested in refereeing at all. I played a bit, and when I was coming through the system as a player, I ended up with an injury. I've got injured while I was in the army. Nothing sinister. I did be playing football, funnily enough. And I'm home on a weekend, and uh referee's not turned up, and I've got my arm in a sling. And the referee's not turned up and said, Look, Scott, you play football at a decent level. Will you referee it? And I'm like, Really? Me and referees never really tended to get on, so I thought, okay, I'll give it a go. And I quite enjoyed it. So I refereed my first game in a football jersey, my arm in a sling, whistling my left hand, quite enjoyed it. And then I took a referee's course, cost 10 English pounds, which is not a lot of money. And then within six years, bizarrely, I've gone through the system really quickly. I find myself on the Premier League, which is crazy. I think, okay, one thing that really motivated me a lot, so I had a bit of a running joke with two friends of mine that when I first started refereeing, I made a bit of an off-the-cuff comment saying I want to be in the Premier League in six years. And I just and I thought it could be possibly impossible, but these two guys reminded me of this a lot. Don't forget, 2009 he's gonna be in the Premier League, and I used that as my fuel to work hard to apply myself properly. And obviously, when I got promoted to the Premier League in 2009, these two guys contacted me and I lost touch with them a couple of years before. And they said, First play. I said, to be fair, I need to thank you because you guys kept me motivated and gave me the inspiration to keep pushing through, which is a bizarre story. And when I did my final Premier League game last March, so just over just coming up to 12 months ago, one of the guys contacted me. I said, You're still going. Who'd have thought it in my in when you started in 2003 you'd be on the Premier League, so first play? So he remembered it. I forgot about it really. He reminded me, so is there any secret, David? Oh it's just like anything. I think we talk about luck, it's probably a certain little aspect of luck that I got there in such quick time. But I think Gabby Player, the ex-golfer, he once said that harder you practice, the better your luck gets. So that's why I applied myself, studied football. It obviously helps. I've got a big football background, I'm a massive fan. It's probably my only vice, my only thing I'm addicted to is football. Not from a referee's point of view, just from a fan. So I got addicted to it that way, and then fell into refereeing, so my football background helped. I started refereeing when I was 26, so I had a little bit of life experience being a soldier for seven years. So that helped as well. But I just worked at it, set goals, set short-term goals, long my long-term goal with Premier League in six years, which I thought never achievable, bizarre. And I just kept pushing on trade, working all the time, learning from colleagues. I think the most the best advice I could give, the two best advice I could give is just to watch as much football as you can and learn from your colleagues. I used to love uh picking uh senior officials' brains when I'm working with them on a Saturday afternoon, even guys who's just started picking their brains, just trying to get as much information as I can in it. I'm still doing the same today. When the PGMO we meet uh every four weeks as a group, we sit down and we discuss clips, we analyze, we train together, which is amazing. And I love picking my colleagues' brains, even like guys who've not been on the list because I think I'm uh third or fourth most senior on our list at the moment in terms of years, uh and there's still junior guys coming through who just come to our group and you're learning off them all the time, just picking bits of information off and learning from their experiences. So it's we all learn from his mistakes, they're probably the bit the biggest lessons, but if you can learn off other people's mistakes as well, it's a bonus because they're going through it as well. So no real advice, David, just work, work.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think it's just you talk about the learning piece of it. I love the saying the more you know about a subject, the more you know you don't know. So there's never a time when the learning ends. Like I think the someone was saying to me this weekend, and I've heard this before, it's so great. If you're the smartest person in the room, you need to go find a new room. You're not challenging yourself, you're not surrounding yourself enough with people who can help educate you. And in general, if you feel like you're the smartest person, there's a problem there too. But just again, it's this constant thing. It's stay curious constantly. I'm again, I've been reffing for a long time too. I'm certainly no, you know, expert or anything. But this morning, I'm sitting, or this weekend, I'm sitting at the feet of other mentors, of other observers, referee coaches, and just listening to them, what are they seeing? What are they watching? What are the what feedback are they looking to give here? What stories can they share? And if you come out of a weekend or out of a match day and you get one thing, one more thing, that's one big step ahead from where you started the day. And I like, if I can finish a match and one thing that I'm like, man, I could do better at that, great, write that down and focus on that next time and get better at that. I think that's it's great advice because that you everyone people say work hard. Okay, yeah, a lot of people want to work hard, but are people willing to learn to be humble, to constantly be curious and constantly ask questions of themselves too and get feedback? I think that's really where I see the what differentiates someone who's good to someone who's great. Because all of the personal refs that I've met through this time, they all talk about constant learning, constantly getting feedback, finding mentors, figuring out what they could be doing better, always, all the time. And that seems to be a thing that runs in that whole elite group is people who are willing to learn and wish willing to question themselves.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so when we meet as a group every two weeks, we had a meeting last week at Loughby University, that's our central base, which is quite good. It's only one hour drive for me, which is great. So we spend a lot of time driving. So every time we meet and we have certain sessions, we get the agenda through for the week. And my favourite bit, even though I love training, I love working hard on the pitch and pounding the miles and working on my technique and doing all my speed stuff and my speed endurance, my high speed running. And I've always, ever since day one when I got in the Premier League, I love the sessions when we're all in a classroom and we discuss individual clips, and just to hear the experiences of my colleagues, because I think I've been in their shoes, no doubt, they've been in mine, no doubt, just to hear their perspective on certain decisions and how they come to the outcome. And there's a lot of occasions where you'll hear a guy say, I've no idea how I got that right. And yet no, I can sympathize with it because I'm thinking I've made thousands of decisions, I can't understand how I've got it right. But I just think that's the in-depth knowledge you've got as a match official and as a football fan. That you've got it right and you think, Oh, that's a great decision, just talk us through it, Scott, or talk us through it, David. And I'm like, I'll be lying to you if I knew, and I'd love to give it more. But honestly, it's like it's like a sixth sense that you get through doing something lots and lots of times, and like used to wanting to learn and learn from colleagues. But yeah, they're my favourite sessions when we sit down and we discuss clips because you are some topical clips on a weekend when obviously the Premier League we had a weekend this weekend, which will went quite well. But you still there's topical points and there's debate from outside world and people talking about clips, and I know we will discuss these clips at some stage, and I'm excited to hear my colleagues their thought process processes through these incidents, which is great learning for me. Because I'm thinking if I can learn and take one bit, which about me tomorrow or this weekend, and get help me get one extra decision, it's got to be worth all the time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. No, I love that. I love that. Let's talk about you talked about the Sunday League. So you still experience, you still go back to your local community and your referee and service to the game, which is wonderful and I'm sure so great for the players, but also for the spectators and for those other referees out there to see you. But can you talk about that culture shock that you go through when you transition from Sunday League to the National League to the EFL and finally make it up to the Premier League? What changes the most from division to division, like environment from environment? What are the biggest changes that you have to adapt to?
SPEAKER_00I think when I'm obviously coming through the levels in England, no doubt the same in the US, where there's more scrutiny, there's more eyes on certain games, and you're coming through and there's more expectation for you as a match official to be more professional, which is great. And then obviously I got in the football league and I think I'd been refereeing four years when I got in the football league as an assistant, and that kind of really blew my mind, really, because I thought I knew football and got it, but then when I saw what were going on from behind the scenes in the way that these matches were organised, in the way that the clubs behaved and the way they dealt with things were an eye-opener. When I got to the Premier League, a different, a total different kettle of fish. It was blew my mind the attention to detail that it's an actual event that takes weeks and weeks in planning, and it was just absolutely amazed. He turned up and you're thinking, Do you expect to turn up with your bad walk to your dressing room? Sort of your preparation, go out, warm up, do the game. There's so much stuff logistically that you'd need to do as a team and work together. That kind of blew my mind. But then also there's when you start doing live games, so my biggest, probably my biggest lesson as an artificial worker, I saw myself live for the first time on a conference playoff semi-final, and I'd never really seen myself as an assistant with three before, see myself. And I will I will camera facing and I recorded it on Sky and I got home and I watched it, and it blew my mind. I'm thinking, wow, why am I doing that? Why am I in that position? Why are you crouching there? And I learned so much from that. And you talk about local football now, where all the stuff that you do is amazing, it's a brilliant platform. And uh we see now I think it's really tougher, especially locally now as a referee. When I was coming through the system as a young referee, it was just me and two teams. Or when I progressed to the levels, me and my two colleagues, or three colleagues and then two teams. But now there's teams that are recording games, Sunday morning games have got cameras, you've got bloggers, and then all of a sudden you'll make a mistake, and then you before you know it, you're trending on Twitter that you've made a mistake, and it's such a tough environment for my officials coming through the system now, but also it's an opportunity to learn as well, to see yourself back. And I learned more, like I said earlier, when I saw my first time as an assistant referee on the television screen, and it blew my mind really. Thinking, why what am I doing that for? And so we make us own style as we come through the system. I've got obviously got my own style, and when I see my colleagues, I can pick them out with if the chop if it chopped the heads off, I could see what I could recognise who they are because we're all different, but yeah, really eye-opening and the scrutiny, and especially when some of your friends see, Oh, did you just yesterday? And I said, Oh, did uh how come you got that decision wrong? And you're like, it comes with a comes with a territory, but yeah, it's yeah, really eye-opening.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I would say so. One of the things I try and tell our referees all the time, and even for grassroots, even at U7 and U8, someone is always watching. Every single game is being recorded. The big thing, and it's uh again, I'm sitting down with a Premier League referee right now, so you know this so clearly, but most assistant referees that I find at the grassroots level, and we have three referees for almost every single match here, which is a little different from an English where it's usually just one. It's cool. But if you're working a lower level U10, U12 match, U13, and you have an assistant referee, sometimes maybe it's not a very challenging match. And the play is on the other half of the field, is still continuing to look like you're engaged, to be focused, to be not just ball watching, focus on the second last opponent, have your flag in the correct hand, stand straight up with the flag pointed down, don't have your hands in your pockets. I think that whole idea, though, is act like someone is always watching because they probably are, and there's always a video camera someplace. That is something a lot of referees need to get really early because it goes a long way to match credibility, it goes a long way to match control and having your decisions be respected. If you look right, if you look professional at all times.
SPEAKER_00I went to watch a young referee last night in the Points that you mentioned there, and I and he and I've never met this young guy, and he reached out to me saying it is a oh my my local professional team, Barnes EFC. And I went to watch him last night on a U 16s game, and he was there as an assistant, and we're playing a team from Norway, and the team from Norway were a really good team. And the whole of the second half, he was just stood on the halfway line doing very little. But you could see, and I said, The biggest compliment I can give to you is how professional you looked and how focused you looked, because you had very little to do. I think he gave two goal kicks and one offside in the set and the whole of the second half, but he just looked so engaged, and this offside flag he gave it looked a really challenging decision because an attacker coming back from an offside position, which are my biggest challenges as an assistant referee. And I just trusted him so much he got it right because he just looked so switched on. And this was but being inactive really, well, in the semi-active position on the halfway line, because he was just so engaged, his technique was great, it's his flag with the right hand, and he just looked great. So whenever he made a decision, I just trusted him. And obviously, I'd probably looking for more scrutiny, looking at him with more scrutiny than any of the spectators, but you can see there were very little dissent on me, if any, because this guy just he just absolutely looked apart. And he didn't know I was coming to watch, so obviously, if you'd know when I'd have been there, there's no doubt, you know what it's like. You know, there's a Premier League assistant FE behind me. Obviously, I need to be at my best today because hopefully he can give me some advice. And he didn't know I were coming, he just said it. I just said, Yeah, maybe I might be able to make it. So I purposely said I might be able to make it. I didn't confirm just for that reason, so I could turn up. And obviously, I spoke to him after the game, I ended up meeting his father, and he would just and I said, The biggest comment I can give him is just how professional he looked, especially when he weren't doing nothing doing much. And they are the biggest challenges is when you when you just stood there doing very little, and obviously, when I'm still on the halfway line as a sister Free, we are quite fortunate. Obviously, we're in contact with our colleagues all the time, and I use a term I always look for work, look for work, which even if there's nothing happening, I still look like I'm switched on. So when something happens, even though I might get the decision wrong, but if the people around me believe I've got it right because I've looked apart, that's certainly a good starting point.
SPEAKER_01I love that. I love just what you said, just always be switched on. I when I was talking with one of the professional refs uh this weekend, he was just saying, I want my assistant referees on every single play to be in their mind. Even if I if it's on the other side of the field and I don't make eye contact with them, I want them in their mind. Are they thinking, is it just a careless foul? Is it reckless? God forbid it's serious foul play. Is it what's the throw-in decision? Is it a corner goal click on every single decision so that they stay engaged? Because there's going to be a time when I need them and I need them in that right mindset. I do have a question about you talked a little about the preparation for the matches. So I actually got to do a match on Saturday night that's higher level than I normally do. It's uh it was a D, a Division I collegiate match here, and it was a spring friendly. There are seasons in the fall here in the United States. But these are people who are much faster, much more technical than I normally deal with. And some of the times I got surprised, I have to be honest. Like I was sitting there and is it some passes going back and forth, and all of a sudden, zoom, I've got a winger just like bursting into space and there's a through ball on the ground. As part of your preparation for these unbelievable athletes that you are officiating, do you watch film to see about tendencies, about like overlapping runs or the type of passes they might be potentially doing, or that doing like very direct Route 9 type of stuff? Do you watch film to get prep for what might happen on your match to help you respond better on game day?
SPEAKER_00We are quite lucky that so I'll tell you a little story. So when I joined the Premier League in 2009, this was the whole stuff that we had. We had the head of the organization, an ex Premier League referee, a guy called Keith Acket, head of assistant referees, a guy called Paul Roger, we had a sports scientist, we had the Keith Ackitt's PA, and that was it. That was the whole organization for leading members. Now we must have 70, 80, we've got sport scientists, we've got uh analysts, we've got sport the sports science team is uh unbelievable. The attention to detail that we get regarding our preparation to make sure in the right frame of mind, physic uh physically, mentally, the psychologists is on another level. So I've gone from uh having one meeting every six months, having one every month, which is unusual for us. We meet online a lot. And we talk about preparation for games. So uh match day uh minus one today for me. So yesterday we received a data pack which uh speaks about everything that you just touched on, how teams set up the personnel, potential set pieces, what position the referee is more than likely going to find himself in these passing areas, these passing lanes, and a lot of things, especially which is really big in the English Premier League at the moment, the way that it's come back into our game a lot, because which obviously when I was growing up, English football were really direct, but now he's going full circle, but then it's back again, so we've got long throw-ins, corners. So we get all this data sent where I can watch every corner, every set piece a team has either received or taken themselves. So my preparation today, I've spent a couple of hours learning the players because my thing is I don't know the players' full names because I think it helps the referee manage situations. If the referee speaks to a player and uses Christian name instead of using his surname, I think you get a better response. If I call you David, I think I'll get a better response for you rather than calling you by your surname. So that's my thing. So I'll make sure I know all the players' names. The referee says, oh, Darren Watts first name, and I'll tell him, and he'll be able to use that if he needs to use it. And then I'll watch the data packs, I'll watch the clips, especially offside the offside scenarios, especially from attacking free kicks, trends from players. One thing that that we've seen a lot in modern football now is players starting in offside positions and then disappearing back into the pack of players and impeding a defender, which is a really challenge to get in real time as a as an active assistant. So that's where also knowing the players' names, putting on the radar to my colleagues who's in offside positions so they can help me out. I had an incident at the weekend with Yorkeres where he starts in an offside position, but then I lose him. And because I identified how as as Yorker's impacted on any defenders, Davin says he's blocked a defender, we gave an offside decision. So that were really good. So yeah, I spend a lot of time on that. If I spend two, three hours the day before, before I do my physical preparation, and it helps me get one extra decision, it has to be worth it. It has to be worth it. And I enjoy doing it because I enjoy watching football. It's from a different one thing that there's no doubt you were a football fan. So when you started, I had this conversation today with a friend of mine that when you take up the whistle or the flag, it ruins football for you a bit because whenever you watch it, whenever I watch a live game now, I'm just obsessed to see what the what somebody in my shoes will be doing, what's he doing there, and what's she doing over there? And and see, forget about football a bit. It's not taking away the enjoyment, but because she's so invested in the role that we do as match officials, addicted to what they're doing. So I'll go to my club a lot in uh in League One in England. I just can't pay much attention to the game. I just watch the match officials thinking, why has he done that? And how have they got that light? It's a great decision, or why they're in that position. So it's moving football a bit for me a bit, but give me a bit more interest as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think everyone would be better off if they did become an official, uh, honestly. And so I am I'm like you, like I am I'm football monogamous. I really don't keep up with any other sports at all. If something else gets to the finals, like our basketball, American football, I'll watch that. But really, throughout the year, I am all about football all the time. And that is what I focus on. But I do think that I have a I can enjoy the game at a deep a deeper level. And I think most spectators, if like you, they're proper footy fans, they're just huge fans of the game. There is no better place to be than on the pitch as an official. If you can't play in the game, like the next best thing is to be a referee in the game. I I I really would love for more people to to pick it up like that because it it will change the game for them, without a doubt, and I think for the better.
SPEAKER_00Oh, you talk about having the best view in the house, and obviously you'll have seen some amazing things. I've seen some amazing things on football pictures where you're quite privileged just to be there to witness things, and you're thinking, wow, what a goal that is, or what a wonderful save that is, or what a great bit of skill that is. You haven't got the best seat in the house. And you talk about the in-depth knowledge that we have of uh refereeing and knowing the laws of the game, it's such a better game when you know what's likely to have and you when you sit in the stadium and you hear fans talking, what's happening there, then? I think this law has been in five years now, it might even be longer, where an offside player goes back into his own half, then plays the ball, and then you restart the game from where he played he becomes recommitted off defense. And even now you're getting professional players at the highest level, they can't understand what do you mean? Why is he in our half? And they just can't understand it. It's such a better game when you know the laws of the game. And I tell my absolutely I tell all my fans.
SPEAKER_01I tell coaches, man, if you want to have a better player, because it's all about mentality, right? Like on the pitch, you can't have your players losing their mind about an offside that was given or not given or something in nature. Or you talk about that great scenario of a player coming back from an offside position. If you understand the laws of the game, okay, I can accept that and I can move forward. But you'll have players who lose their mind about stuff because they simply don't understand the laws. And that's a problem, man. So if you want people to have a great mindset, goalkeepers. I think every goalkeeper should become a referee. Not only do they see the game differently, but it will help them be a better referee and understand when they can pick up the ball, when can't they pick up the ball, and all those types of things, I think they'd be so much better off.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, where you think now where football's gone at the elite level and every level, really, the marginal gains that the one percent is that these teams, the degrees they go to and the lengths they go to to get that marginal gain to get an extra point, to get an extra goal. If they knew the laws of the game, the laws of the game, it would help them so much. I used to run a Sunday morning football team, and so I had the inside star with the way I could. I always have to say to one way, so it was a penalty kick, and I always had two players level with a penalty spot on the outside of the penalty area, and some players were they're not allowed to stand there. I'm saying they are, trust me. The referee one. So if the it more than likely, if the ball's saved and it goes to them, they've got a good opportunity. So it's helped, and to be fair, it tells. When I go to games and I sit with fans, and the seat that I usually use at one of my local club, and obviously, I know a lot of the fans around me, and they'll ask me, so what's happening there? What why have they done this? And I try and educate them. And now they remind me saying, Oh, you mean this happened, this is going to happen now, isn't it? So it's it certainly enhanced my enjoyment of the game, knowing the laws. I just wish I'd have known now, so I'd known when I was playing what I know now, because I would have got a lot got away with a lot more. Trust me, I would have done.
SPEAKER_01I'm sure. I do have a question. We talked about your pregame prep from like a mental standpoint in visualizing what the teams are doing and the statistics. I love that whole that what you talked about with the data packet where they talk about potential positions that they might set up for free kicks and where the referee might be to have the best angle. I do want to talk about the physical prep. So you are outrageously fit, and everyone at the professional level now is outrageously fit. What are your go-to exercises or things that you swear by that are that you're during the week type of things? Again, like game day minus two or three. And then what are you doing the day before and day of to make sure you're ready to be at peak performance on the pitch?
SPEAKER_00So physically, match day minus two for me. So obviously that was yesterday, which my match day minus two yesterday was matchday plus one. So I'm recovering too. They recover yesterday. But say, so my game this weekend's an FA Cup game at Leeds United. That's on Sunday. So my match day minus two, I will do a speed session, which we wear GPS data, which is in real time, get sent to our sports science team, which they can see how fast I'm running, what my speed distance is. So we get a training programme every week, and obviously, match day, my match day minus two, it'll there'll be certain parameters that I need to hit. I need to tick off a certain amount of distance in that speed session for speed distance covered. So I think the sprint is 25 kilometres per hour. I think we use that between 100 metres per session. So I'll do that. I work a lot on my lateral movement, and I always have done. So I if you're in the right position, which usually the assistant reference, if you square onto the field and you can usually see the ball being played and also the secondly most defended, the attacker. But on occasion, that's obviously we'll never move as quick as these wingers who were just super quick, or the attackers who were super quick. Even defenders now are just so quick. Oh, yeah. So on some occasion, we have we have got to just sprint, but I try my best just to make sure I'm always side on, and I back myself 99 times out of 100 to get a decision right if I'm side on. On occasion, you can't be in that position. So I work on my transition when I do a speed session from sprinting to get into sideways position, so I'm sprinting to my right and I'll turn and put my brakes on and readjust. And imagine I've got a second-most defender, the ball being played. So I do that in my speed session. On a match day, I do that as well. So when we split as a team and Darren, the referee I'm working with now, he'll do his a few high-intensity runs through the centre of the field. The Keel and I will disappear to our lines or checkers' lines, even though they're all the same. But we still might have visualize it.
SPEAKER_01It doesn't matter, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you're pre you're prepping for the game. Yeah. Absolutely right. So especially with a delayed flag that I go through the process in my mind. So I'll do a couple of runs up and down the touch line and I'll do a few short, sharp movements when I'm laterally, and I think you might in this scenario, no, I'm a delay in this scenario, which what when we speak obviously the inception of VAR in the UK, which was 2018, when we started testing, and I did the first game, bizarrely, which was Crystal Palace, Brighton in the FA Cup third round, and we're all excited to do it. Anze Marinov read the game, and the game finished nil, and there was no checks, and we thought this VAR is easy, it's easy. We know it's clear, but it's still a challenging place to be mentally. And I don't think I'll ever get used to it, but it comes with a role, I suppose.
SPEAKER_01It's hard. First off, people don't understand that what might look really clear on a still screen, a still image, you know, of a moment in time when you've got a defender stepping up playing an offside trap and a again striker running full speed coming up like down the pitch towards the goal line. Holy cow! I mean, that is happening in fractions of a second. We're dealing with literal inches on and off. Now, by the time everyone looks at them, they might be three yards clear, right? Because the ball's been played, and finally everyone's starting to see where they are, and then everyone's wondering why are you delaying the flag? It's like, dude, it is a lot closer on the pitch. I can tell you that. And then the other thing you said, I think is so interesting, and this happens to every referee. Like sometimes you'll have a play where the it's a goal kick or a corner kick situation, but the ball was like hit from like 30 or 40 yards away, and it's like going slow and like rolling. And sometimes you just forget, okay, which way was it going? I don't know. Like, I'm thinking about other things at this time by the time the ball finally went out. So I can totally appreciate your brain is on that play with Danny Ings. Okay, you're saying into the headset delay, you're trying to tell everyone, hey, I've got a flag, flag's gonna go up for offside when this play stops. But you get down there, he's cutting it back. Now you've got other decisions that you're thinking about. You're watching for potential fouls, all these things. Finally, the scores. Oh, someone scored. Okay. My gosh, I can totally get it. Your brain, like you, you've thankfully your teammates backed you up, but I could totally appreciate how you may have forgotten, you know, about a potential outside offense that happened like 10 seconds earlier.
SPEAKER_00It was a really challenging part of me. I think this would have been in my 13th season, 14th season on the Premier League. It was really challenging. And the chat I had with my boss Mike Malaki, ex top top assistant referee, and he just said, relax. It'll come eventually. And then, sure enough, in the first minute it came that evening. And then I got it out one more. Fortunately, I avoided an incorrect non-flag because my colleagues in mind, did you say the lane then there, Scott? So luckily, the guys, when we had a night out at the end of the season, I bought some well-deserved beer there.
SPEAKER_01That's so awesome, man. So I do have a little question about the VAR as an assistant referee with VAR and now with the Premier League, even implementing the automated offside technology, taking it to a whole different level. You're still there calling offside when you see it and you're clear, and then keeping your flag down when you don't think it does. How do you maintain your confidence as a referee out there when you're being compared to a computer? You raise your flag for offside, and then the computer backs comes back and says, nope, it was on for whatever reason they decide it's on. Does that affect you? Do you guys talk about that often and how to process that?
SPEAKER_00I think we are. It does affect me personally, and I know it'll affect all my colleagues in different ways, no doubt. I think it's it's I think it's VAR coming into our game is it had to happen. I'm a I'm from Yorkshire, so our national sport in Yorkshire is uh is cricket. So they've had technology in the cricket for a long time. I do get it's a totally different sport to football, but we do need it. And from a personal point of view, so say I've made a decision, I've left my flag down, and the players are doubting me that I've got it right, the fans behind me are criticizing me, come convinced that I've got it wrong, and then even your colleagues might have said to you, Scott, are you sure you've got that right? I was so strong-minded mentally that I told myself, no matter what anybody says, I have got this decision right. Because if I dwell on that decision now and doubt myself, it could lead to an error or another error. So I was just so stubborn in my mind, I will worry about that decision after the game when I've seen it myself in black and white. Now I can't do anything about it. It's in the past, the most important decision is not that one, it's the next one. So I'm really strong mentally, but with the intersection of V8, and we talk about semi-automated offside, so we've got a five centimetre tolerance within the offside lines, with the company that we use and the competition the Premier League introduced, which I think is really good. Uh to stop all these toenail offsides and these outpits, which is great. And we've got this tolerance. So now we get instant feedback. Well, we haven't made a mistake. I've been overturned twice this year for reverse crossovers in the vein of my life as an assistant referee. And uh, you get instant feedback when the BARF has come. You do doubt yourself because you're so strong-minded mentally, you'd you'd process the decision and learn from it after the game, but you now you've got to process it and learn from it during. So I used a bit of a technique and I read it in a Tiger Woods book bazaarly years ago. He wears a rubber band round his wrist, I presume he still does. And I wear something very similar. So after every decision I've been involved in, whether it's been a positive positive decision, a VAR check which has been correct, or VAR check, which are the most challenging ones, which comes back as incorrect, which comes with a territory. If any match officials said they've never made a mistake, they've clearly never refereed a game yet. So I use this for the band and it resets me. It resets me. So I twang it quite hard. And I'll talk you through a scenario in the first season of the Premier League VAR. I had a non-flag at Liverpool Watford, the Liverpool goal in added time, and the check took six minutes because we had no semi-automated technology, and so the VAR and his assistant VAR had to put the lines in, find the correct secondary most defender. On this occasion, the secondary most defender was the goalkeeper who would swap positions with the defender, and I was stood there for six minutes and this way in added time, and I didn't realise that during this time I was twanging this rubber band. And I came off after the game and I couldn't get my watch my watch off because my wrist had swollen up so badly. Because I was just twanging this rubber band for six minutes, trying to process the decision, going through it in my mind, thinking the goalkeeper switched places, so he were my secondary most. The attacker, I couldn't see him, I couldn't see a part of his body, he could score his soul, that could be right. And I went through all this in six minutes. And I come off on one of the lads who were on the line, he says, Look at the state of your wrist. And my wrist had swollen up that badly. My watch shop had nearly split. But I still do it. I've never had it at it that much extreme since, but it does reset me massively, it just regrounds me, makes me like, okay, that decision's gone now. You need to focus on the next one because that decision's finished, you can't do anything about it, we'll process that after. And it works. When we talk about, I use that in my normal life. So now I walk out on the streets with a with a band around my wrist. Helps me process things in my normal day-to-day, day-to-lay life, with my family, with my friends. I play a bit of paddle tennis, I wear it to that to reset myself when I make an awful shot, which is probably every other shot. So I use that to I just come across that through through reading Tiger Woods's book over 20 odd years ago now, before I even started refereeing. And then when VAR comes in, I thought, how can I develop something to help me process and move on? Because it's great, your colleagues will say, Unlucky Scott, move on, you can't do anything about that, and that's great, that's fantastic. But you'll still be stood there thinking, having your doubts and your thoughts and your negative thoughts, thinking, wow, I should have got that right. But then if you're dwelling on that one, potentially you could make another mistake. So it works really well for me with the band. Yeah, obviously, it's not healthy when you're twanging it all the time, but you certainly want to.
SPEAKER_01I just want to say the channel does not condone self-harm. No, no, definitely hurting himself. I think the advice, the moral of the story is stay present and look forward. And you said the words the most important decision is the nexus. Decisions. The most important decision is the next decision. Learn from whatever decision you've made, right or wrong, whatever. Take a lesson, learn from it, and then get focused on the next decision. Dwelling about the past and lamenting the past or beating yourself up about the past doesn't help, right? Not at all. But if you learn from it and stay present is the most important thing. I do have a couple very last questions for you. I've been to Old Trafford. So I've been to Craven Cottage. So I've been to a couple Premier League proper environments. I've never sat down close to the pitch in the Premier League, but watching it on TV seems like a pretty can be a pretty rough environment. Ha what is some of the funniest or I don't want the mean things people have said, but any funny or creative things that people have said to you from the stands?
SPEAKER_00We hear all kinds of comments, especially at certain rounds, as you can imagine. Some really not complimentary, as you can imagine, and then it's something that you just chuckle like. It's got to a stage where I used to totally ignore them. And they think, nope, I'm not listening. But now it kind of makes me chuckle a little bit, thinking I'm quite clever and or quite witty. And I remember a couple of years ago now, when we spoke about, I mentioned it earlier, where an attacker coming back from an offside position, if he plays the ball and commits an offence in his own half, you restart the game from there. And I flabbed a guy offside coming back from an offside position and he collected the ball 20 yards in his own half. Which looked really bizarre. Yeah, totally. And I'm getting absolute pelters from this guy for 35 minutes before half time. And he's absolutely coming down from his seat, he's hanging over the barriers because obviously a lot of English grounds, you mentioned Craven Cottage, is probably the tightest ground in England. So tight, yes. Really tight. It wasn't quite Goodison Park, which is a really challenging environment, but amazing atmosphere. And so this guy's coming down, and it got to the stage where the game at the half had finished, and when I checked my nets and I recognised this guy because I looked over my shoulder because I'm thinking he's really close to me, I felt like I feel his breath on the back of my neck. And I turned round to him as I checked my nets at half time and then retook my position on the touchline. So I always like to run towards this to the fans so I can look at him. And I recognise this guy. And I just said a few words to him and I said, You can't be offside from a goal kick, we know this. I said, But when a player returns into his own arm from an offside position, he's still offside. And he didn't know. And to be fair, 20 minutes into the second half, he apologised. Lino, line. I'm really sorry about that. I didn't realise somebody's just confirmed it. And I'm thinking, and I never really commented to fans, but just got to a stage where they get, I think you're talking rubby shit. And I mentioned it to him, and when I took my line out, I took my bottle out, I put my bottle down, I have a drink during the game, and I mentioned it, and he was like, Oh, and I never heard anything until 20 minutes later, then he came and apologised. Apogise to me. I did turn around and say, Oh, no, yeah, no apologies. Apologies accepted, obviously, yeah, crazy. And then he said, I apologise, Lino. So it always made me chuckle that. So whenever I make a decision now like that, I had one at weekend, and I think a pedgleed Chelsea striker collected the ball in his own half from an offside position. And David restarted 10 yards in his own half, the player's own eye. And that's the norm now. But there was the 62,000 at the 60,000 at the Emmett's on Sunday. And there'll still be fans thinking we can't set a free kick from there. And and that's the point that you and I spoke about earlier. If the fans learn the laws of the game, even just pay a little bit of interest in it. The sport as a spectator sport, such a better watch.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, agreed, man. I have served as the unofficial referee whisperer so many times when I've been sitting in the stands explaining things, like when my kids played and everyone would look at me. Why do you do that? I was like, and it just helps them, it helps them reset and like enjoy the game, just focus on the game. But if no one is there who does understand the laws, it can be really challenging. Hey man, listen, you are a busy guy. There's I want to get you back. And again, your match day, just minus one right now, coming out tomorrow. I want to make sure you get to go watch your footy and get a good night of sleep. Scott, I just want to say thank you so much for coming here, sharing your story, sharing your wisdom, sharing your ideas on how to make the game a better place. And can I just say the most important thing? Thank you for the service that you're doing in your local community. Going to watch that young referee on that pitch, on that U 16 match, going out into your community and working those youth games again, those Sunday League games again, even with all of the other responsibilities you have and your commitment to your full-time job for the PG MOL, working as a professional referee. You're still making those efforts in your local community to share your love of the game and also show people, you know, how being a referee can be a positive thing and create a better environment for football for everyone. So, sir, thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you, David. Thank you for having me on. It's been great. And keep the content coming because it does light my day when I see one of your posts come up on my Instagram. It does light my day. So it's a I've even got my wife following you as well. So yeah, keep the content coming. It's very good, man.
SPEAKER_01Scott, again, thank you so much. And everyone out there, thank you so much for listening today. As usual, just as a reminder, please support the Rus Need Love2 store online. Everything gets put support back into making this channel possible. And as always, I hope your next match is Red Card Break.