What Elite FIFA Officials Can Teach Grassroots Referees with Jan Aravirtra, Referee Academy

The fastest way to level up as a soccer referee is not learning one more obscure law, it is learning how to handle people when the match te. I’m joined by Jan Aravitra, a former FIFA international referee from Finland with nearly two decades at the top level, including UEFA competitions and World Cup qualifiers. We get into the behind-the-scenes reality of working with different crews, different cultures, and different communication styles, especially from the perspective of an elite assistant referee.

We talk about focus in hostile environments, and how you can “block out the noise” without ignoring the emotional temperature of the benches and spectators. Jan explains why players care so much about being treated fairly, how repeated moments can snowball into dissent, and what experienced officials do to keep the game balanced and under control. We also dig into practical man management: when to build rapport, when to stay composed, why yelling back never works, and how the best referees set clear borders without turning the match into a debate.

Then we shift into referee education and development. Jan shares why he built the Referee Academy, how video feedback and live clip discussions accelerate learning for grassroots referees, and why community is a key factor in referee retention and mental health. If you’re a new ref trying to survive your first seasons or a veteran trying to mentor others, you’ll take away specific habits you can use on your very next match.

If this helps you, subscribe for more conversations like this, share it with a referee who needs support, and leave a review so more officials can find the show.

Transcript

Meeting Legends And Staying Human

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I'm almost done with my Puroligie Colina book. Is he on like when you first get to meet him? I haven't gotten to meet him yet. Is he easy to meet like first time? Or is he even is he still intimidating?

SPEAKER_00 0:12

It just seems so good. Still intimidating for sure.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

I'm trying to prepare for the day I get to meet Puroliggy. Like how I'm gonna greet him, how I'm not gonna annoy him.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

The one lesson that I have learned in referee is that everybody is human. So just treat them as like that. And go and greet them and talk to them and just be yourself, and that will get you forward. Even though first it is intimidating.

Why Learn From Global Referees

SPEAKER_02 0:42

I just got back from Generation Adidas Cup down at IMG Academy in Florida. And wow, what an amazing experience. I was literally sitting right next to Nicola Rizzoli, who was the World Cup final, okay, the final referee when Argentina played Germany in the final for the 2014 World Cup. And I was literally with him for hours watching him, talking to him while we're watching matches, and he's mentoring referees and listening to how he gives feedback. And S. T. Baharma, also World Cup referee from 1998, former FIFA referee, Ted Uncle, former MLS and FIFA referee, spent time with him watching and learning at how they give feedback and just watching great referees work. There's always something to learn. And this week on this podcast, we're gonna be listening to another UEFA, former FIFA Champions League referee. And you may be wondering why are you talking to all these people, the international? Why don't you talk to more people in the US? It's a global game, and I'm gonna speak to whoever, you know, is number one available, willing to speak to me, but whoever can teach me. I want to learn new things. The guy we're talking to today was a FIFA international ref, but now he's doing grassroots coaching and education. And so I want to learn about what he thinks the local grassroots referees need to know and trying to see what he's focusing on so I can become a better referee, but also a better mentor to my community, which I'm trying to be. I I would also tell you, too, I was down there and I brought Umpiro shoes down for people to try on because normally they're only available on officialsports.com. And I brought my pro grip uh socks that I sell my website. So the Umpiros, people were blown away. All those referees down there, the regional, national, CONCACAF referees, they're all wearing cleats, which are painful. They're painful. They're good for a match. My gosh, if you're a grassroots rep and have to do two, three, four games in a day, there's just no way. They're made for a soccer player for one game and striking the ball as hard as possible and sprinting as quick as possible, but they're certainly not made to be worn for many different hours, which is really a problem for traditional cleats. And when people try on the Empire's like, oh my gosh, and then they try them on with my socks too. They're like, oh my gosh, because it is so unbelievably wonderful and comfortable and you finally have grip. So definitely check out at Official Sports, check out my socks. I will say I'm gonna be out of stock pretty soon. Hopefully, I'll get some more orders in to replenish my inventory because they've been selling like crazy on my website. Additionally, if you are an assigner or you're looking for or want to help out your local organization who uses a crappy assigning platform, no offense, but Arbiter or some other homegrown thing, you need to check out Refer Sports. I did a demo for my buddy here, who's an assigner here in Georgia, and literally mind blowing. I had the founder of Refer on. And when he took like a random like email or spreadsheet, dropped it into the software and it used AI, inputted all of the games, like with all the locations and all that kind of stuff directly into the software with no manual typing. It was like, oh my gosh, unbelievable. So check it out. It's modern, it's cool, it's great for refs, but great for assigners. Again, Refersports R-E-F-R. You'll find them online, refersports.com. And if you want to do like a walkthrough, have a demo, let me know and I'll hook you up. I'll make sure we get it set up for you. Again, so much fun right now, just really busy trying to pull back on the amount of videos I do every day, the amount of podcasts I put out just to make sure that I don't burn out because life has been very, very good to me. And I need to make sure I'm in it for the long term and not get stressed out and have a heart attack or something like that. So, guys, love you all, and I think you guys are going to enjoy today's pod. Hello, and welcome to the Rest Need Love2 Podcast, a show that gives you a real, raw, and behind-the-scenes view of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch. The referee. I'm your host, David Gerson, a grassroots referee and certified mentor with over 11 years of experience in over 1,400 matches under my belt. Today's guest is a former FIFA referee and one of Finland's most respected officials. Jan Aravitra, an international career spending nearly two decades, earning his FIFA badge back in 2007, he's operated at the absolute pinnacle of the sport. Jan has been a fixture in UEFA Champions League, Europa League, and FIFA World Cup qualifiers, working alongside legendary crews in some of the most hostile and high-pressure environments in global football. After retiring from the active FIFA list, Jan pivoted to his true passion, refining the human side of officiating. He founded the Referee Academy, an elite training program designed to bridge the gap between technical, law knowledge, and the soft skills of match management. His mission is to professionalize the way referees think, communicate, and handle the psychological demands of the modern game. Jan, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Through the modern technology, you are in Finland. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Yes, in the capital, Helsinki.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Fantastic. I've never been to Helsinki. I need to get there at some point in time. I've been to Sweden, I've been to Denmark. I haven't made my way to Finland.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

What is that? Come on, you need to come to Finland.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

I know, I definitely do. Because all the Finnish people that I've met are fantastic. It's a and and I wanted to actually talk to you about that. Is there something about being Finnish? You know, the the Sisu, you know, it that means kind of grit or stoicism that makes for being a great referee.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

I think Sisu helps when you have difficulties or setbacks that gives you strength to struggle through them. And then Finland has always been between West and East. So we have a very long border with Russia. And we have been a peacemaker country, and we have Nobel Peacemaker prize winners, and that is like our history. That I think that helps as a society.

SPEAKER_02 6:37

I would say so. You also have to endure extremely long, cold, and dark winters. So you can handle anything.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Now it's getting easier when we are in Mars. It's you can see the sun finally, so it's fun.

Assistant Ref Life Across Cultures

SPEAKER_02 6:49

I want to dive in a little bit about your career and background because you've had like an amazing, like absolutely the 0.0001% elite referee career. And then I want to talk about the referee academy and what you're trying to work on, where you see the biggest gaps and what you're doing about it. But the first thing I want to talk about, so much of your career, and I know you you also are a referee as well, but you spent much of your FIFA career as an assistant referee. And I was curious as an assistant, an elite assistant, because that is a path for many people to go. What do you think is the hardest part of that assistant referee role that fans and coaches don't see?

SPEAKER_00 7:30

I think otherwise it's offside, it's the hardest, but what people don't see that you need to adjust. There might be different referees every in every match and different culture. So in the USA matches, you might have a Serbian referee on the first match day, and then a few days later, a referee from Spain. So you need to adapt and be part of the team, make the referee and the other crew members feel that you are there for them and will do everything that they will succeed.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

As someone who has lived in Europe for a long time and done business around the globe, the the mannerisms, the communication style, and the way they show emotion is dramatically different. If you're dealing with someone from, say, Finland or Estonia to someone who might be French or Italian, it is a it is or Spanish. It's a very different communication style. And so as an assistant referee, you get paired up with the referee on the day, who may be, as you said, Estonian, maybe Italian, and you have to adapt to how they want to call the game and their communication style. Gosh, that's gotta be really challenging.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

That was like for me, it that was the challenge. That was like what I was really keen to learn from those people, how they approach things, how they approach football or or players or coaches, and that that was really something I enjoyed. And like that was good what you said, that I felt always because I didn't have emotions, I was really like strict and no emotions with the players, and I was really bad because of that. But then I got children, and then I I grew up, I noticed, hey, I have emotions, I I can feel anger, I can feel joy, and that helped me to understand the players, what they are feeling on the pitch, and what the Italian player or or the Spanish player is feeling on the pitch, and that helped me. I need to adapt to that. I need to take his feelings to me, chew them for him, and give it back so that he will be more calm in the future.

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Yeah, I think it's a great lesson. Obviously, you were doing this on the international stage and from the some of the most extreme environments, in front of Dortmund's Yellow Wall, the biggest stadiums across the world. But even on our pitches on Saturday and Sunday in your local grass uh roots environment, you might have referees that are from completely different cultures. So again, I'm from Georgia from or man, I grew up in New York City, but I might be with a referee who grew up in Peru, another referee who may have been from the Philippines or something nature and emigrated to the United States. And then we might have teams that we're refereeing for that might be mostly Hispanic and maybe they're from all different cultures or backgrounds or socioeconomic backgrounds. And you do have to be like a chameleon as a referee to be able to adapt to those different environments and not necessarily take how they respond to you personally, but try and find a way to connect with them. And I think that's just a universal truth, but a really hard thing to master.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

But something, something I really always enjoyed to cope with people, to I think I was like really bad communicator when I was younger, but I was I I tried to understand people still, but I couldn't express that when I was younger. But then when I learned with age and experience. But I can explain people what I thought about certain situations, what I thought about your behavior, I can express that more clear. And I think that has developed a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

I do want to talk about those uh experiences that you have working with these different crews. Is there something that you guys do? You're coming from these different countries as a FIFA crew to build cra chemistry pre-match so that by the time you get to the pitch in the game, that it looks like you guys are all on the same wavelength.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

I think you have talked about it already before in your previous podcast that when you are a referee, you are already a family. So it doesn't matter where you come from. So immediately when you meet a fellow referee, you are a family. So I think it starts with that, and then you have pretty much instructions. But you already feel that you are together when you meet and you tell the others that hey, I'm a referee, also. So you then you are a family.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

I'm definitely I I got to talk about that with Scott last week. Uh but it's a thing, it's a thing. I know we could all sit down at the pub together and look at the same call together and have passionate dialogue and have a lot of fun and even watch a game together, watch it differently than ever everyone else.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

And we always have something to talk about.

Focus In Loud And Hostile Matches

SPEAKER_02 12:51

Always, always, every day. I get this these challenging environments. I I've been to Dortmund, I not for a game, I've been on the tour, so I've seen that environment and I've seen pictures of the noise and the sound in that stadium. Whether I've been to games in Portugal and I've been in England and I've been in the Netherlands, and these environments are loud. They are raucous. You know, it is a lot of volume, a lot of energy without a doubt. But also on our grassroots pitches on Saturdays and Sundays, a U-10 match. Do you have any advice that you would give to referees now about how to maintain focus when you're in such challenging environments?

SPEAKER_00 13:30

So you can ask my wife and children that if I'm reading the newspaper and and they will they try to talk to me, I won't hear anything. And the same applied on the beach. So whatever the stadium was, I was so focused on my job that I could easily flock a lot. And then I need to I needed to listen some. I need to feel the spectators or or the benches what they felt to help the referee. But still I was so focused on on my job that I didn't I didn't notice.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

Talk to me a little bit more about that. Listening to the spectators, listening to the bench, and how you help the referee. Can you give some examples of that?

Perception Of Fairness And Game Balance

SPEAKER_00 14:16

So if if team or or the spectators give me like image that they feel that they are treated unfairly all the time. So I need to consider that as a sign that hey, can that be true? Have we failed somewhere? Have we missed some free gigs to that team? And if we could could we balance it up back on track, get to match up back on track. So I think that is really important, especially in the top, but I think it all becomes it is people hard to understand, maybe people think that it's a foul, it's a foul. But there's a lot of sometimes you can call a foul and sometimes you can let it go, and and with that you can balance because it's really important that people feel that they are treated fairly. That's what they want from the referee. And they understand that once or maybe twice you can get it wrong, but third time they feel that hey, now you are not feeling treating us fairly. Do something, and then if you can feel those moments and then try to balance it up, maybe tell them that hey, I think you are right, I made a mistake, or then balance it up with some easy three gig, or sometimes it's a yellow card. Other team has three yellow cards, it's balanced match, other team has three yellow cards, the other one zero, and you get the opportunity to keep the other team who has zero yellow cards, uh yellow cards, you will give it, and everybody will be more satisfied with your performance.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

I think this is probably the most controversial uh topic there is in if you are an experienced referee and you've been around for 10 years, but it's very controversial. Be very controversial for an average fan who's possibly listening to this conversation. It's never talked about publicly. It would never be talked about by any official officiating body, like IFAB wouldn't say that in the laws of the game, and U.S. Soccer or the Finnish Football Association is not going to go out and say it. So we encourage people to focus on the appearance of fairness and maybe they have an opportunity to even things up and give a card, or maybe the other teams have three cards, maybe they would never say that. Based on your experience, um, and your years upon years of doing it at the highest level, perception matters, it really does.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

And I think that helped that I have done in the crashroots totally the opposite. I was like, hey, this is foul, this is yellow card, and every time, and then in the end we end up with seven yellow cards to the other team and zero to the other team, and so I I have done that also. And now I have been to the top and I have noticed that hey, I can transform these things to the crashroots. They've worked there as well. That is like some something really big that I have learned and something that I want to pass on to other referees so that they can have their job a little bit easier.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

So that kind of brings me to the question regarding referee education. You've you've created a program called the Referee Academy, which is an online tool that you have specifically to help coach and develop referees. Now, obviously, you're doing this because you see a gap that there's something missing when the official education that comes from the football associations or our soccer association here in the United States, to what you actually need to be successful at the grassroots. So, what's kind of the biggest gap that you see that kind of spurge you, hey, I I need to create something to help some of these referees out?

SPEAKER_00 18:16

I think we all know that everywhere there are lack of resources in the refereeing. So not enough observers or so I think that is like the main gap that I'm trying to fill. That people can come and and get advice, get feedback, get support. So if I can build a uh place where people can share their thoughts or clips and not be trust, but get support and help, then that's like the key.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

I think that's so important. It is really nice as a referee to be able to have someone you can go to upload a clip from your game or a full game and get feedback. And I think that's a powerful thing. I don't think enough referees do it. I mean, here in America, it feels like every single game is being videotaped. It's as simple as walking up to the you mind if I just get a link to that video and even tell them better. Hey, I'm not gonna post it. I just want to evaluate my performance. Yeah, I can do that. Coaches are gonna be like, oh, give me an email tomorrow, I'll send it to you. I think so. Talk to me a little about the referee academy. You talked about feedback. How do you go about providing feedback, that coaching and that guidance when someone gets into the referee academy that you've set up? What do you do? And what's a program look like?

SPEAKER_00 19:37

So there's like material that you can self-study, there's clips that I have made, an explanation in written or verbal that you can check out and learn from them, and then there's off-site training, and then we have two weekly sessions so people can bring their own clips, or then like now on Wednesday we had a couple of Champions League clips that we talk about that were just happened on on Tuesday, so it was really really fun to go through like really fresh clips and and uh that people talk about everywhere in in in the press. We have had good like participation now that there are people that it's not me alone there in the live sessions, but some other people, and we can exchange opinions because I don't know everything and we are starting to be old, David. I don't know if you have noticed, but there are young people coming and they have fresh ideas and to listen to them and then learn and maybe adjust your thinking also, that is like really valuable for me not to drop out so that I can still keep keep on and up to date.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

I think it's a wonderful thing. I'll tell you just because of my channel, I I get invited to participate in a number of different groups of discussions, dialogues. Sometimes it's an email, sometimes it's a Facebook group, sometimes it's a a WhatsApp chat group. And I'm I love my Irish referees. I've got a group of like 40 Irish referees. I'm in their WhatsApp group, and I love it. And they're constantly posting quizzes and they're throwing up different decisions that were made. And it's so interesting seeing how different people will look at one play. But I know you you've created this academy. You've got about 80 people online now. It's like very affordable, too. It's$7 a month. So it's like you're into this international group of referees with some high level officials from all around the world who are discussing these plays and analyzing clips and getting feedback as well, which is fantastic. It's one to one coaching. It's I think you're creating something really valuable. There, there are a lot of people who don't have those types of opportunities or that type of group. They live, and now you're providing that for everyone around the world.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

And you can watch the live sessions, they will be recorded, and you can watch them later. And then this is like the key why I got so far was that I had people, I had a couple of people that I constantly every day talked for almost hours about clips and about refereeing. And that helped me to learn all the time. And we didn't agree always. But that was like really valuable that hey, you can look at that from that perspective. Or hey, he found this from the laws that I didn't know. And things like that.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

I think it's fantastic. I get about one or two emails a week from a referee who's, Oh, I had this play come up this weekend and I knew what to do because I saw you do a video on it. And they were prepared. But you have to prepare. You have to put in that work, you have to look at hundreds, if not thousands, of clips to see all of these different possible scenarios on all these different locations on the field to be able to know, okay, yes, that's a foul. Okay, this is the action you need to take, this is the restart, this is the card, all those types of things.

Common New Ref Mistakes To Fix

SPEAKER_00 23:14

You can feel confident out there to sell the call, which is really and then if you have a group of people doing that job for you, then you are even wiser. As as Scott Leccher said in the previous, don't just learn from your mistakes, learn from other people's mistakes or mistakes also. So you get twice as wise.

SPEAKER_02 23:34

I do have a question for you specifically about less experienced referees. Because I started late as a football referee myself. I was 40 when I started officiating. Well, maybe my late 30s when I started officiating football. So if for those junior referees who are just starting out, you know, maybe you know, less than one year or two years of experience, do you see specific uh mistakes that they're making over and over that could be really helped with this type of mentorship and this type of feedback? Are there certain things that just every time, you know, when someone's new, you see them doing that they could be helped if they'd invest in this type of training or at least getting this kind of feedback?

SPEAKER_00 24:10

A lot of things, but maybe to have a couple of like movement is for sure one to have to understand where to move and how much you need to work for the movement. It doesn't just you cannot stand there. And it's natural that you just stand and watch football, but you need to do the work, you need to do the sprinting. So I for sure that is like the one. And the other one that I really would like to help people is is to communicate how to approach players and coaches and spectators nicely but firmly. Listen to them and then explain them how you saw it, your opinion. And also just stop the abuse if there is some, how to stop that, how to draw the line that hey, now it's enough. We continue with the football.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Talk to me about so once someone makes it through of that, you know, those first one year one, two, three, and then they want to advance, they want to get to what might be the regional level in their area or national or international. Is there something that is just again, most important thing that they need to do? You talked about the communication skills and how to work with players and there's positioning and movement. Is there anything that you see those referees at the highest levels, things that they specifically do that separate them from everyone else?

SPEAKER_00 25:40

I think you spoke about this also with Scott. So it was like learning, be curious, try to learn as much as you can. But I think nowadays something that I would like to raise up is that people are a little bit anxious to get forward. They want to get better matches, and sometimes it's good that you get a little bit frustrated that hey, I got this, every match I do at this level, I'm good. But sometimes you need that you have enough experiences, and if you don't go forward, probably then somebody has seen that you have some things to improve. But then when you got that one click in your head, and then it might be that you go fast forward. I believe it's just do your job as good as you can, work hard, and then you will get the reward. Someday it will come that when you, as an assistant, you run to the goal line, and then you are on the spot on the right day, on the right moment, and you will raise the flag, hey, the ball was in goal, and everybody will be, oh, he was there on the goal line, amazing! This guy, we need to get this guy to hire up because he was so good.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Those, and I don't say this to be disparaging, but lower level games as great opportunities to work on fundamentals. Like I am absolutely making sure that I am in the perfect position, as much as you possibly can be. Because I will say the lower level you go, it makes it a little harder to predict where play is going to be. It's a different type of movement that you have to do. But there's no reason why you can't be absolutely fundamentally sound, having great communication, and again, making sure that you're doing a great job with your foul recognition and game management on a lower level game, lower age group and skill level. It doesn't matter. It's like you could always be working on those things.

Growing Without Rushing Promotions

SPEAKER_00 27:42

That was good that you mentioned those fundamentals. Because in a way, when you do it yourself, it everything is clear. Hey, this is how I do it. But then I made this video about me showing the assistant referee signals. And I was watching it afterwards, and I looked, but in that video, I looked really good. Every signal I made was like spot on, in my opinion. And I so there is something fundamental. I I was on the top and I didn't do every corner, or I didn't do exactly how it should be, but I got it. Had like the base was there. My signals were really clear and and as they should be on the law book. And that will help you. When you have those things, then it's easier to communicate or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

I wanted to talk to you a little bit about the mental health side of being a referee. It's a topic we talk a lot about here on the channel. And again, something that doesn't really get talked about too many new referees or junior referees, and probably even senior referees. And it was a topic that 20 years ago no one would talk about. But now you we see the pressure of it's there's always been a high pressure world of being a referee, but generally you ref the game and then you leave now with 24-7 sports news channels and social media, and it's it's an endless cycle of the referees after matches or questioning referee decisions after matches. Do you guys uh or do you in the referee academy, do you talk about how to protect referees' mental health after they maybe make a mistake or maybe feel that they've missed a call? Do you talk about that?

SPEAKER_00 29:29

I think that is like one of the reasons for the referee academy. Because that that should be the place. Because I think it's really important to talk about those experiences and talk about your feelings. So I I really liked the episode with Kevin Klinger, and I I uh and I have not done it the same way as he talked about those, but I have done the same things. I have reflected with those two guys that I had. We spoke about clips and we also spoke about our feelings. Hey, that didn't feel good, and also my wife has done her career in leadership. So we spoke about feelings with her as well. That how that felt. And then you get to know yourself, and when you get to know yourself, then it's much more easier to face other people's reactions. That doesn't change me. I am who I am, I have tried my best. And and you need to behave, even though I've really bad today. But that gives you perspective.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

I love this. I always uh use the phrase with my kids don't let someone else set your mood. You know, don't let someone else, you have to do that yourself as a human being, wherever you are in life, no matter whether you're at a job outside of the soccer pitch or you're on the field, don't let someone set your mood and bring you down. That's it's more about them than it is about you. Important.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

And as a referee, you have a role there. So it's not you that they are angry about or think that you are doing a bad job, but it's the role that you are playing. Okay. It feels bad because you put yourself into the role. It's you who is playing the role and it's your emotion and your skills. So it feels bad, but still you need to remember that it's the referee. And if you take the shirt and then you go with the same people to eat, afterwards, they will treat you as normal. But when you have the referee shirt on and the whistle in your hand, then they see you differently.

Mental Health And Identity In The Role

SPEAKER_02 31:46

So I I do have a question. You've worked with some of the best referees in the world. Like, no argument, the best, you know, all across FIFA internationally. What are some of the things the best referees in the world do to keep a game from getting out of pan, to keep a game from exploding and really boiling over? Are there little tricks that you see common at that level that people do? Anything that we can do at a grassroots level and apply in our matches?

SPEAKER_00 32:17

I think it's 100% money management. I think uh, yeah. Howard Webb and Miloran Masic, I had match with Miloran Masic who was like the best. For me, the best at one time. And and he was like really good with people. And if somebody on the field felt frustrated, he went and talked to him and and got his uh this player on his side again. And I think it's man management is is the key that how you treat people, how you get people to understand what you are doing and feeling that they are treated fairly.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

I think it's a big thing. Is it something they're doing in the moment and they're being strong and hard and telling them to stop? Is it does everyone have a different style? I'm just wondering if there's something that's common that the top people do.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

I I think it's important you that you have all the tools that you need, you can be friends, and then two minutes later you can look at him out of the eye and say, hey, stop it. And and you need to have that room where you can move. And and at the top level, you cannot stop the game and talk with players. Everybody will be that, hey, come on, we want to see football. So you need to do it when you are passing by or when there's a corner or something like that. But it's just you need to have a big variety of how you approach people and find the right way to the right situation and to the right person. Yeah, I love that. If the person is high-up and really angry with you, you cannot yell at him. You need to then be composed and say, please calm down or then stop, but not to get too aggressive on it.

SPEAKER_02 34:11

Yeah, no, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

That's a definitely I've done that many times.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

Yes, we all have. That it doesn't help, especially with coaches. Never ever yell back at a coach who yells something to you. It's just never ever going to work.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

I have a good example of this. Arnest Slot, when I was always the first assistant close to the benches. So I tried to have some kind of relationship with the coach. So I said something to him at some stage. And I said something to slot as well, and he didn't give anything to me. So that was a sign. Don't approach, don't and then when he tried to approach me, I didn't give him anything because I knew that he wouldn't respond to my message either. So that is like that is a good example that you shouldn't get involved with the people who don't want to get involved. Yeah, and that is a lesson that I have learned because I was forcing, because I'm a I talk a lot, as I think you do also. So I'm I was forcing it to come on, come on, let's talk. And the player was like, go away, I don't want to talk with you. And then don't push it if they don't want to talk.

Man Management Tools From The Best

SPEAKER_02 35:30

I completely agree. You need to Yeah, no, no. I'm a friendly person before the match. Hey coach, how's it going? Great to see you out today. I may ask, how's your season going, or something like that? Some people want to have a conversation, some people really want to get to know you, and it's wonderful. You can build a bridge and you've got a foundation, respect that you can work from, it's great. Some people want nothing to do with you, and some people that's just it's just how they act and it's how they behave. And they might that's how they just act towards all referees. It's not about you, it's how they are, but it's also important to show that I'm not gonna play that game back as well. If someone wants to be a little rude or raise their voice at me, I'm not gonna give that back. It's just might show a hand and be like, enough. You didn't want you don't want to have relationship.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

What I have learned like later is that if you can have that talk before the match, use it. If that is something that like now I had a uh Finnish top league teams training match, and I was talking with one guy about Zimbabwe for 10 minutes before in the warm-up. And it was really nice. I get to know him better again, and it will be for sure be easier to communicate with him in the future matches.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

Absolutely. A thousand percent. Without a doubt. Could even just give you a look. You're on the you know what he's saying and you know what he's feeling. He might be frustrated, but he's not going to treat you. You know, he's gonna treat you like someone that he knows. You're not necessarily friends, but you're colleagues. And that little investment and that relationship makes a big difference to how they respond to you during the match. Absolutely. So, Jan, here in the United States, we're trying to do more regarding improving the culture for our youth referees. We've implemented a new referee abuse prevention program. It seems a lot of the referee associations at a national level, uh, the U.S. Club Soccer Rise officials, I know for me in SoCal Soccer League, I'm trying to do more training development for them and even an in-person clinic we're doing next month. What's it like for youth referees in Finland right now who want to get started as a referee? Is it supportive culture? Is it good training resources? Is there anything you're doing there that you could maybe share with us here in the US that could be helpful for us?

SPEAKER_00 37:46

I think that's a universal problem that you have abuse and and people quit refereeing after one or two years. So but when I moved here to Helsinki and we went to the we have this referee society, we had meetings, and and I think there was less than 10 people in there, and then with my friend we like think thought that hey, we need to do something about this. And and the society club had had money. So we started to have a like Champions League evening. So we had a match, food, drinks, and all of a sudden we had 60, 80 persons. Now in the in the uh Helsinki region we need to not everybody can participate on the refereeing course. But still the dropout is is still big. But we have been lucky so we have tournaments that we organise referees and then we get money for the society there, and then we invest that to different events. We go bowling or what's top league match or whatever to to build a community to know each other and learn. I think that's the key. But it's not easy to build it, but I think that's and that is a little bit about what this referee academy is is there for. Because sometimes you don't have that. You don't have the person close to you in your city or or where you live. But maybe online you can have a community where you can come and talk to your colleagues.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

I think that's so huge. The building of community, the feeling of togetherness, the feeling of there's people out there who have my back beyond the field. I think that's really big. People that you can trust, that you can share things with, that you can ask questions, that you can be vulnerable with, um, is a really big deal. A really big deal. So I just I want to ask about like how people can get in touch with you, Jan. So the referee academy, how if someone wants to enroll and participate in this program you've set up online, how would people find it? Where would they go?

SPEAKER_00 40:06

So it's in a school platform.

SPEAKER_02 40:09

So S K O O L school, S K O L dot com.

Youth Ref Culture And Fighting Dropout

SPEAKER_00 40:13

And you can search the referee academy. And then yeah, I'm active with the referee academy in TikTok and Instagram and on Facebook, and you can also find with my name, my account, and then through that to referee academy.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

Yeah, I highly recommend so again, you'll see his name in the show notes here, and I'll try and link his handles. But it's always good to get a FIFA trained referee perspective, how they might see a certain play and what considerations that they would actually use. A lot of people love to talk about different uh plays or what they would like to see called, but it's really interesting to hear someone who's been there who's seen it, and has also been through the same training that those same referees have been through and what considerations they're thinking about when they're making those calls. I think it's really valuable.

SPEAKER_00 41:03

I've been really lucky because we have a talent and mentor program, where was Clement Turpian, Simon Marzniak in the same program, so unbelievable names. And we had an English mentor, so we went to the English courses back then when Howard Webb was on top of his game, and I could talk with him and with his assistants. It was just unbelievable. And and I met Scott as there as well. And then I was on the first UEFA VR course, so there was like bringing the VR to UEFA, so there was the best Italians and Dutch and Spanish guys there, and I could learn from them. I've been so lucky, so that's why I would like to share this information that I have gotten to as wide as I can.

SPEAKER_02 41:59

I do have a question for you. I got a couple questions, just humor me as much as possible on this one. For Simone Marcinac, he looks gigantic, like a really big dude on TV. Is he that big in person? Because his arms like as a referee, you don't normally see referees that are like Jack. That guy looks huge for a referee.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

And he was not that like that 14 years ago, not at all. So he has really done some work to succeed. And what a referee.

SPEAKER_02 42:33

Oh, Ian, you talk about fit, he and also a presence. It doesn't hurt that he is bald, of course. He's got the bald head, but big arms and this presence about him because of his fitness. And it's not just aerobic fitness, he's an anaerobic, like he's a big dude out there. He looks amazing. You know, he looks great on film. I'm sure in person he is just like as fit as can be. Okay, I do have a couple questions. So I'm almost done with my Pure Ligi Colina book. Is he on like when you first get to meet him? I haven't gotten to meet him yet. Is he easy to meet like first time, or is he even is he still intimidating?

SPEAKER_00 43:09

It just seems so intimidating.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

I'm trying to prepare for the day I get to meet Pure Ligi, like how I'm gonna greet him, how I'm not gonna annoy him.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

But but I think the one lesson that I have learned in referee is that everybody is human. So just treat them as like that and go and greet them and talk to them and just be yourself, and that will get you forward, even though at first it is intimidating that uh it's so interesting.

How To Join And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_02 43:41

So we've just talked about Simon Marcinac, we've talked about purely Gikalina, these really strong presences, and then you also brought up Clement Turpin Turpin or Turpin, Turpin Turpin, yes, who's the the top French referee and has been one of the top French referees for probably the last five or six years or so now. Now he is probably my height. I'm only five foot nine, so I'm not a big guy by any stretch of the imagination. He's still a phenomenal referee, but he's different, right? He's a different personality, he manages games differently, he looks differently, and still highly successful. So I think it's just a it's a great lesson, you know. This you brought up those two names, and they are so dramatically different in like physical appearance, how they look, and also French and where is Simon Simone's from. Is he Polish? Polish very different cultural backgrounds, very different upbringings, and still having tremendous success at the top of the game as a referee.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

But still, when when you look at them, like they are I think as a referee, they are calm, but still they I think they are really good at at drawing the borders. Hey, this is now enough. I let them play if you if you want to play, please play. But if you cross this line, then I will step in and show you clearly that this is not accepted. I think those both referees, totally different types, different styles, but that is common with them. Man management, as we spoke earlier. I think that is I want to believe that's the key.

SPEAKER_02 45:20

Wonderful. Jan, thank you so much for joining me today on the podcast. I've really enjoyed the conversation, and I definitely want to get to Helsinki at some point soon.

SPEAKER_00 45:29

Please welcome. We have a couch here. You can sit there.

SPEAKER_02 45:33

Happy to. I'll be in Sweden for Gothia Cup this July. So I'll be next door. Yeah. I'll be there for a full week for Gothia Cup. I don't know if you're planning on being there this year.

SPEAKER_00 45:43

I have some plans. Let's see.

SPEAKER_02 45:45

Awesome, man. I'm definitely that's where I will be some point in July. I know I'll I'll be in over there for one of the World Cup semifinals. So that's actually here in Atlanta, but I'm going to be in Sweden. I've been wanting to go abroad. But again, I just encourage referees everywhere to try and have as many different cultural experiences refereeing with for people with different backgrounds, whether your the teams are from different backgrounds or your fellow referees are from different backgrounds, or you go ref in a different part of your country, or you go ref in another country. It's such valuable experience to help you as a referee on the pitch. So I hope I'll have that opportunity to come to Finland sometime soon. I appreciate the the offer of the couch.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

We have Helsinki Cup, which is also a very big tournament. About the same time.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

It's a week, I wish I could be. My wife's not going to let me be abroad for that long. So that would be cool.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

I will talk to her.

SPEAKER_02 46:42

Thank you, sir. You can use your man management on my wife, and we'll see what we can do. Excellent man. Jan, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it, brother. Thank you. I hope everyone enjoyed today's pod. Again, these are such valuable conversations we're having with some of the most experienced referees out there in the world. And again, the soft skills, the soft skills, it's what's not in the laws of the game that enable a referee to truly be successful at those advanced regional and elite levels. Again, let's make sure we keep on working on them. And again, trying to listen to these people who have so much great experience. As always, just a reminder, please support the RustNe2 store online. Everything that gets invested there, it goes back into making this podcast. I really do appreciate you. Thank you for all your letters of support, your questions, just everything, all the communication, all the time supporting the channels. I love you so much. And as always, I hope your next match is red card free.