Brand New at 42 with Holly Jimenez - It's Never Too Late To Be Great!

The hardest part of picking up a whistle as an adult isn’t learning the signals, it’s walking onto the field while everyone assumes you’ve done this forever. Holly Jimenez knows that feeling firsthand. She starts refereeing at 42, feels the nerves at U9 games, makes the kind of mistakes that haunt you on the drive home, and still keeps showing up until her experience builds and the confidence grows.

We get into how she goes from local youth soccer to top level assignments like MLS NEXT environments and semi-pro matches in the WPSL and UPSL, including what changes when you’re in a stadium with real crowds and veteran officials. Holly breaks down the pieces that accelerate referee development: mentors who give honest feedback, assigners who challenge you at the right pace, and the mindset shift of treating mistakes as part of referee training rather than proof you don’t belong.

Holly also brings a unique edge to soccer officiating: she’s a longtime Spanish teacher, and her ability to speak Spanish can instantly cool down dissent, build rapport, and even catch the sideline when people assume the referee won’t understand. We also talk directly about the reality of being a female referee, the sexism that still shows up on touchlines, and why communities like the Female Referee Organization of Georgia matter for retention, safety, and growth.

If you care about better game management, stronger support for referees, and getting more women into officiating, you’ll take something practical from this conversation. Subscribe, share this with a referee friend, and leave a review so more officials can find the show.

Transcript

Cold Open Adult Beginner Pressure

SPEAKER_01 0:01

I think honestly, it's even harder as an adult because even though coaches can be mean to younger kids as well or parents, I think looking at somebody my age, there's already an assumption that I've been doing this a long time and I know exactly what I'm doing. When I first got going, there are 14 and 15-year-olds, including my son, who are way better referees than I was. I think that's one thing. And just, I don't know, making giant mistakes in front of 50 people, 100 people is not easy. And there's really no way to learn and no way to become a good referee without making all of those awful mistakes. You just have to do it and go through it.

Scholarship Deadline And Sponsor Notes

Holly’s Background And First Season

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Such an inspirational conversation you are about to hear. One of my favorite local referees, Holly Jimenez. Everyone thinks it's so easy to become a ref, especially as an adult. Maybe you've played the game when you were younger, you've been watching your kids play it for 10 or 15 years or something of that nature, and then you pick up the whistle. Man, you should know how to ref. It can be just as intimidating to a ref who might be, say, 40 years old or 50 years old stepping onto the pitch for that first time as it might be for a teenager. Now, obviously, the dynamics are different when you're an adult versus being a kid. And yes, I think a 13 or 14-year-old is still very much a kid, but it still can be scary, it still can be intimidating, there's still a ton to learn. And Holly has jumped into this with just you know, just wild abandon. Seriously, she has gone from just starting as a referee the first time picking up a whistle to all of a sudden, and I say all of a sudden, in three years, doing semi-professional matches in front of 3,000 people with FIFA referees as her like fourth official. It's an amazing rise, and she is just a wonderful, wonderful person. I really think you're gonna enjoy this conversation. Just as a couple reminders for you, you guys, I hate to bring up bad news, but my dad died in last fall. But good news, I formed a scholarship for referees in his honor. It's like the Dr. Thomas J. Gerson Pops Memorial Scholarship. I've communicated about it numerous times on my social media. Uh, the final date to submit applications for the scholarship, I'm giving away two scholarships of$750 to help towards uh college expenses. And again, please reach out to me if you want the link to the details. I've put it on my my channel a number of times as well, but the deadline to apply is May 1st, so please reach out and do that there. Additionally, guys, just a couple uh you know other reminders. Pyro UM P-I-R-O, the greatest referee show shoes ever. I wear them every single time and I love them, and I feel like I am fast on my feet and it can cut with confidence. If you haven't purchased your pair you know yet, you need to give them a shot. Give them a try. They're gonna be less expensive than whatever other crap you're wearing on your feet for cleats, and they're gonna be so much more comfortable for you. So definitely check them out at officialsports.com. Use my code refsneedlove2, all one word, 12 letters, and you get 10% off. Check them out. Also, refer sports. Okay, you if you know someone who's assigning games and they're still using a crappy platform, direct them to refer. If they want a demo, let me know. We'll hook it up. I'll be on the phone too, kind of walk you through all the things that I love about it. But man, it just makes life so easy for referees and for assigners. So check out Refer Sports as well. It's R-E-F-R. And if you go directly to them, just let them know that you heard about them through me. And just last things for me, guys, I am out of stock on my socks right now, the ProGrip socks. I had crazy orders like bulk orders out of nowhere pop up. Really, really exciting, but it completely wiped me out. I've got more bulk orders waiting for my stock to come in. Hopefully, in the next week and a half, I'll get more. Also, just other reminders, I've got my pro, like quality, I would say, referee flags. I've got the buzzer flags from RareBit that are in my store, but also I've got like rubber handled weighted flags that are phenomenal. And at 39 bucks, dude, it is a steal. They're like the old BMB, but I think better. I think the grip is actually better. So treat yourself. If you're still using those light foam flags, pick up these rubber handled weighted flags. You'll love them. You're gonna hand them to people in the side. Like, oh, these are nice. Where'd you get them? So definitely check them out, guys. Again, thank you so much for all of your support support. As a reminder, you know, everything that gets purchased through store allows me to make this podcast happen and keep the channel going and justify the time commitment to my wife. So thank you so much. Love you all, and I think you're gonna enjoy today's show. Welcome to the Rough Seed Love2 Podcast, a show that gives you a real raw and behind-the-scenes view of one of the hardest jobs on the pitch, the referee. You may notice if you're watching this on YouTube that I'm recording this from my office upstairs where I ship everything out in the retail store and not my nice studio downstairs. So it's a little messy behind me, but trust me, it is for good reason. My basement is flooded, and I have a wonderful podcast guest today, and I didn't want to reschedule. So, about me, you know, I am a grassroots referee and certified mentor plus with over 11 years of experience and over 1400 matches under my belt. You can find me at refnelove2.com on Instagram, TikTok, and now YouTube. But joining me today, born and raised north of the border in Canada, Holly Jimenez. She began playing soccer at the age of four before discovering a love for running, sparked by fittingly, being a little too enthusiastic during team punishment lapse. She's the one that no one liked in those times because she's like running and just like having a great time, and everyone out there is dying. She went on to compete Division I track and cross-country at the College of Charleston, building the fitness and mental toughness that still shape her approach to the game. For the past 22 years, Holly has taught Spanish in Metro Atlanta, where she has also coached both running and soccer, blending her passion for sport, education, and mentorship. Holly's journey into refereeing began at the age of 42 through her son, who started as a junior referee when he was 11. In just three and a half years, she progressed from U8, U9 recreational academy matches to serving as the referee, the center referee in both WPSL and UPSL matches. During pink fall and spring season, she regularly officiates five to ten matches each weekend, spanning lower level club, MLS next, and adult competitions. A firm believer in lifelong learning, game management, and giving back to the sport, Holly balances her serious commitment to officiating with a fun personal note. She is a lifelong fan of the Teenage Newton Ninja Turtles. What is up, Holly? And welcome to the program.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Thank you, David. I'm really excited to talk to you today.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Yeah. Little known fact, I think I was on your crew for your first ever MLS Next match. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

You were my heir one.

The Light Bulb To Improve

SPEAKER_00 7:05

Holly had I've been following, you know, her her rise. She's a fellow referee here in my home state of Georgia. And when she had her first MLS next game, she's like, hey, you come join me on my crew. I'm like, absolutely. Thousand percent yes. I'll be there for you. It is so cool. So are you just to recap, you went from zero experience, zero, starting later in life, like I did. You started at 42. I started at 40, you know, as a soccer referee, although I'd kind of informally done it before that. But you went from zero experience to the WPSL in just three years, which for those who don't know WPSL, it is women's semi-professional. Uh so that is a pretty meteoric rise by any standard. What was kind of that light bulb moment where you realized you wanted to take this from just being a weekend hobby, something you just kind of play around with to like, wait a second, I actually want to do this as a high-level pursuit and push myself to the limits.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

When I first started, I was doing um a Sunday of I think five U9 games in a row. And I was so nervous, driving to the pitch, sick to my stomach. I got there really early. I was watching YouTube videos. You know, want to make sure that my signals are correct. I'm like, do I even know what I'm doing? But I think being a high-level athlete in the past, and I think also just being a teacher, always wanting to do things well. I don't like to approach anything just halfway. So I want to be a good referee. So as I worked through my first season, which I mean I was terrible, but I worked through it, and then I had some great mentors, but I also had my main assigner, he was really good. We had actually worked together at a school before, so um he knew me personally and knew that I really wanted to get better. So he gave me games that were appropriate as far as moving up little by little, going from the really low-level games up to my U15 SCCL when I did my first line for that. Was I felt like I was at the World Cup. Just little by little, or one of my other mentors was like, Hey, I've got some friendlies over here. I think this would be a great opportunity. So just having people around me who recognize that I work hard and want to learn, and I'll ask questions and would give me a game or one that's just maybe slightly above my level. And then as I grew, I'm like, okay, I can do these games and like give me everything you got. Do as get as much as I can.

Adult Pressure And Early Mistakes

SPEAKER_00 9:48

You tell that little story about those unine games and sitting in your car and feeling like you're gonna throw up. You were a division one athlete. So it's not that you haven't competed at high levels before. What do you think it is about those environments, but also just that thing is starting as a referee in these, it's unine soccer, but why is it so intimidating when you're first getting started?

SPEAKER_01 10:10

I think honestly, it's even harder as an adult because even though coaches can be mean to younger kids as well or parents, um, I think looking at somebody my age, there's already an assumption that I've been doing this a long time and I know exactly what I'm doing. And there are at when I first got going, there are 14 and 15-year-olds, including my son, who are way better referees than I was. I think that's one thing. And just, I don't know, making giant mistakes in front of 50 people, 100 people is not easy. And there's really no way to learn and no way to become a good referee without making all of those awful mistakes. You just have to do it and go through it.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

That is so interesting. You said you talked about specifically the expectation that you know what you're doing because you're an adult. I wonder also if that's some pressure that we, you know, we put upon ourselves because we're an adult, because we've watched soccer for so many years, whatnot, and we've maybe we've coached it or we've played it, and then you're stepping onto the pitch and right, like you were 42, I was 40. And the expectation is where you at least feel I should know what I'm doing out here. Like, gosh, I know the game, I think I know the laws, and yet we're still making mistakes. So, what how what do you think kept you pushing through those mistakes? You mentioned a mentor, was it just personal drive and perseverance? Was it just that you wanted to spend time with your son? It was also a rough thing.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Oh, I can't believe that happened, or I just in the at the end of the day, it was fun. And I got to run around and I care. And I think one thing as an adult, I have a full-time job, so this isn't I don't necessarily need roughing. Extra money is great and very helpful, but it's just something I really want to do. I'm there just to make a little extra money there because I care. I want to I want to contribute.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

I love that. Let's talk a little bit about you mentioned those mistakes. Is there any particular mistakes that stand out when you were just beginning that now you use this as a teaching moment to maybe help out other newer refs as they get started? Anything you look back on?

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Absolutely. And my son, we did so many games together my first season. Most of my mistakes he's seen, and most of them were are going to live our car forever. So we still sometimes talk about them. But one that I can talk about is awful and embarrassing, but it's funny. We were doing a, I think it was a U10 club game, one of the clubs near our house. And I think it's great. They even a 7v7, they have ARs for this game, which I think is really good for kids starting out because then they only have to focus on just past the build-out line. It's a really good like beginner step. So I was a center in it for this girls' game, and he was my AR one. And at that age, the girls get really excited when they get to go in. At one point, the keeper for one of the teams grabs the ball and she's holding on to it. And all the girls went to the line and yelled, sub. So I blew my whistle and I started subbing. I was just living my life. And then I'm like, it's too late now. So I just keep and at halftime, he's like, I can't believe you subbed at the punt. I was like, I know, but it was an accident. And they were just started running. And he's Yeah, the coach was like, I've never seen that before. I've never also seen any teenage new referee make that mistake. But I think just having made so many of my own, I'm just I feel really I can understand and empathize with new referees. And I try to just be really positive when I work with younger kids and find some things that they're doing really well. And then maybe one or two things that they can work on. Hey, in the second half, let's see if you can do this. And then be like, I totally noticed you look so professional. I think let's just hope a lot of my mistakes live just in my head.

Jumping To WPSL And UPSL

SPEAKER_00 14:10

I think it's a the one thing about being a referee, and I think this is just good life advice in general, is making mistakes is only bad if you don't learn from them. Actually, mist mistakes are a good thing. And I can tell you as an entrepreneur, I've made so many errors. Like just literally in this last five years of my journey, like I'm constantly making errors and I'm trying things new, and some things work and some things don't, but that's the fail forward. And I think that's part of being a referee too, is that you get comfortable with making mistakes that it's a positive thing if you learn from them. And I think that's how we have to do them. Look at it as a learning experience. You're never going to be perfect as a ref or in life. And if you can develop that kind of inner fortitude, you'll be great. That'll be wonderful. So let's talk a little bit about now, because you've gone from these recreational level U9, U8 matches, and then you've moved up to the WPSL. What do you think is the biggest change for you now as a referee when you're doing these little 7v7 matches close to your house and now you're traveling an hour and a half and you're in stadiums? I've seen you. You actually have been in stadiums refereeing in downtown Atlanta now for games. What's the biggest change, like the culture shock between those little rec matches and now WPSL?

SPEAKER_01 15:28

I'd say the first summer. So last summer was my second time doing WPSL, and then the first time I got the whistle some games. I think the first summer, a lot of the shock was wasn't even shock. It was just more a lot of that imposter syndrome that I'm like, oh, these some of these referees are they're regionals, they've been roughing for decades, they're former FIFA and just being like, I've been I'm a soccer mom and I've been doing this for just a couple of years. But if you put in the work, you put in the effort, I love the professionalism. I like the fact that you connect with your crew a few days before, everything's much more prepared and efficient. And it's just it's a lot of fun. I had the opening whistle for Decatur FC, which is a growing club here in Metro Atlanta, and there were almost 3,000 fans. Once the whistle goes off, it's just like any other game. You just have to do it, focus on the game, focus on what you're doing, and just enjoy it. And for me, it was a huge privilege to be able to do that.

Refereeing As A Mother Son Duo

SPEAKER_00 16:30

So I'm just, I just feel so lucky to be 3,000 fans. That is legit. That is a big time game. Again, three years into your journey. Congratulations. But you've earned it and you've done a great job. You've come so far in such a short period of time. I would love to ask. We mentioned your son. So your son was a junior referee, and then you decided to get certified, and then you started roughing alongside each other. Can you talk about that? The dynamic of being a mother-son duo. Do you give him evaluations post-match? Does he give you evaluations post-match?

SPEAKER_01 17:10

I always tell him that I would love to a referee like him grow up. I think he's fantastic and he's very passionate about it as well. And even at the age of 16, he's officiated up to a U16 next match. So he's doing really well and growing a lot. I think for us it's really unique because I know there are some father-son combos, or you'll see a father-daughter, but we have yet to meet a mother-son combo. I'm sure there's some out there, but I don't even typically re meet referees my age. For us, it's really fun and unique. And I know he enjoys it. And yeah, sometimes he'll we get to have time, he's like, Oh, you blew that one, you missed that phone. Or, hey, but I think the longer that we do it, it's yeah, hey, focus more on this. And it's as he's maturing as a referee, and as I'm maturing as a referee, it's turning into more serious evaluation of how we can do better. When we get to a match, we're definitely just two crew members. And I think obviously we work really well together. He's also bilingual. Actually, he's trilingual, he speaks English, Spanish, and French. So that's kind of really handy for him and for me.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

So that's amazing. And do you think it's changed your relationship off the pitch as well when you're not actually working together as refs?

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Yeah, it's he we both love soccer, so it's something fun. My daughter, she's not a soccer player, she's a dancer, so we have our special things that we do together, and then that's refing is something that we can do that's also really fun. But yeah, it's definitely been a fantastic bonding experience and something that I'll hold up just forever.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

That's so cool. I wanted to ask about being a parent. So you've got teenagers. Your son and your daughter as a mom, okay, out there, does that help you handle younger players, teenage players, maybe even fellow parents, or do you have to turn off mom mode when you're in the center and just focus on being official as opposed to mom?

SPEAKER_01 19:16

I think mom mode kicks in more when I get to still do some lower level games. I will be tying a shoelace every once in a while, or I before the game I realize the keeper's not wearing or is wearing a similar color. So we gotta go grab a penny and they're just got these giant gloves that are like going everywhere. I can't get it on, so I'm like putting it on. And then actually, some of my fellow referees call me the mom referee because I've always in my bag, I have zip ties, sunscreen, bug spray, band-aids, you name it. I've got the product that you need. I started doing high school this spring. The guy didn't know the velcro patch to stick his new GHSA thing on there. So I had that. I also had scissors, so I got to cut it out in the right shape for that patch because it's a weird shape.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

It is.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

I think mom mode, that's how I insert that more. And it's that's separate from how I am as a referee.

Teaching Skills And Spanish On Field

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Wow, that's so cool. Let's talk about you as a teacher. So you are a Spanish teacher in Atlanta. You spend your day managing a classroom. And I think teachers make phenomenal referees. That's what we're doing off of what we're teaching and guiding and setting real rules of engagement, what's acceptable, what's not. But do you see any specific skills from you being a teacher that apply to match management and you as a referee on the pitch?

SPEAKER_01 20:41

And I think honestly, being a referee is making me a better teacher, and being a teacher makes me a better referee. But I think every behavior that you see, whether it's in the classroom, on the field, even if it's negative, is a way of communicating a need. Sometimes you have to feel out the situation, and there are so many different ways that you can diffuse a situation, sometimes through a small talk, humor, and on the pitch, even a card, depending on the personality of the kid that you're reffing, the adult that you're reffing. So I think also just being patient because I deal with a lot going on this year. I've got mostly freshmen, I got big classes, I got a lot of crazy personalities that I'm always dealing with. And I feel that also, whether I'm on the soccer field or in the classroom, there's always a handful of people who are literally out to irritate you. So I think they're very transferable skills for sure.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Oh my gosh. I love that. It's so funny. First up, freshmen are the worst. Like in high school. It just seems to be the thing. They're just they're not fully mature yet, especially the boys. The boys, they can be a little bit crazy. But you said something that I found really compelling. You said that. Every behavior is a demonstration of a need, or maybe a negative behavior is a demonstration of need. Can you talk a little bit more about what you mean by that?

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Yeah. It's on the soccer field, it could be a kid feels, I don't know, he's being unfairly targeted, being that's not being recognized. So then he's going to act out in a way that's maybe not appropriate by eye language or a physical reaction beyond what should be acceptable. In the classroom, sometimes it's a kid who's just very impulsive and they're telling you, hey, I need attention. And there's a lot of ways that you can redirect them without just getting angry and escalating the situation. So I think being a teacher has helped me a lot pitch with that.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

I love that. Let's talk about the language. So you're a Spanish teacher. So we know how diverse soccer is just in general around the world, but especially here in Georgia. For those who do not know, we have an extremely international population, especially in Metro Atlanta in particular. And when you go south of Metro Atlanta down towards Florida, it's probably not as diverse as what we have here, but it is still extremely diverse. Have there been moments when your ability to speak Spanish completely changed the temperature of a heated match or maybe just changed the dynamic of a match?

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Absolutely. If you can't tell, I don't really most people don't assume that I speak Spanish.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

So for those who are listening to this on audio only and not seeing this, Holly is a relatively more pale-skinned Caucasian woman with lighter, very light brown hair. So she doesn't necessarily, you wouldn't say, oh, she she looks like she might speak Spanish. So she might catch some people by surprise.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

And so sometimes, just depending on the vibe that I get from a team, if I hear a coach checking in talking to his team before I check them in, I may just go over and start right away speaking Spanish and then no. Sometimes I keep it my secret, but it has definitely helped diffuse a lot. And I know my very first UPSL middle, we had a team from North Georgia. It was almost entirely Spanish speaking. And one of the guys, he got fouled. It was a yellow card writing it up. And he's telling his teammate in Spanish, you need to tell her it's a red, tell her it's a red. So I just responded to them in Spanish. And I'm like, no, it's a yellow. That's why they recommend not using those toddler shin guards. So everybody was laughing, but then the entire team was like, wait, Spanish? And they're like, Are you from Argentina? I'm like, no, I'm from Canada. And then they're like, wait, profe, how do you know Spanish? And then it just after that, even if um they were getting called out for a foul, they were very respectful of my decisions. I did a tournament a couple years ago. It was uh showcase in January. It was a local MLS Next United team against a team, I think, from the Midwest somewhere. And two guys started getting into it in English. And so I was like, okay, guys, yeah, like that's enough. Like we're gonna stop that kind of language. So they switched to Spanish, and I was like, Oh, you have enough funnel también, and then they were like, Oh my gosh. And then so the guy's okay, my bad. So then everybody laughed, and then we just kept playing. So it definitely comes in handy. I can in a game hear parents yelling negative things in two languages, so that's always not the greatest. No, it's overall it's a really positive thing. Anytime that you can speak another language, you can really experience another culture in a different way than you could otherwise. Speaking Spanish for me is just it's a gift for sure.

Running Endurance And Matchday Rituals

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Oh my gosh, it is such a gift and such an asset. I definitely, and people should know anytime you travel to another country, even if you don't speak fluently, having some words or phrases to be polite and respectful in that country and their native tongue is a very good thing. On the soccer pitch, you know, they're especially, you know, here in Georgia and other parts of the country, I know in Southern California, having Spanish in your bag for the players is absolutely critical. But even more, you mentioned it briefly, the parent. There is a lot of times that there will be parents who will say things disparaging and potentially rude in another language, and again, because Spanish is common, in Spanish, thinking that they're not going to get caught. And it makes teams very upset when they hear those words, especially in a language they that they understand. So being able to recognize it and then be able to address it with coach, here's what I heard. This being said, and that you do speak Spanish, I do know exactly what it means. That is unacceptable. You need to have a conversation. But I've seen a lot of times where situations get out of hand really quickly because someone's saying something in Spanish and then everyone's no, I didn't say anything. That's not what happened. So what an amazing asset to have. I bet you didn't think it was gonna, when you became a Spanish teacher, that all of a sudden, or that eventually it was gonna be like a key secret weapon on a soccer pitch when you started.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

No, definitely not, because I wasn't as necessary as a cross-country track runner.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

You are an avid runner, and I know this because we've talked about it, but also the day I went to referee with you, I think we had jogged off to go use the restroom before the match, and then we were jogging back, and you're just like like gliding across the field. Like, no joke. Oh my gosh, this one was a runner, which is huge. But has that either experience as a runner, but that maybe that endurance mindset like helped you in the 80th minute of a high-level match when everyone is gassing out? How have you taken that running experience and applied it to being a ref?

SPEAKER_01 27:52

Yeah, so I love refing be a new way to run, which sounds weird, but um, I ran my last marathon at 39, but I got my PR at 38. So I beat my 24-year-old self when I was 38. At this point, now in my mid-40s, I know that all of my PRs are behind me. At this point, it would just be decade PRs. And I don't know, I changed my perspective a little bit. And I think that's one reason I also got so into refereeing because it's just been such a nice new challenge for me. So for me to spend a Saturday doing five games and just running around getting 30,000, 40,000 steps, 15 miles. But it's not as hard on my body because that's a mix of running and sprinting and walking. And I just love to run all day. I will literally just run all day. I don't have any kind of a secret, or I'm like, oh, I can tap in. It's just that's literally who I've always been. My identity was around me as a runner. So I just I love being out there.

Sexism And The Women Refs Network

SPEAKER_00 28:57

That's so cool. That's so cool. Let's talk a little bit about being a female referee in Georgia. So, first let's just start with female referee. And then I'm gonna talk about female referee in Georgia and the community that we have here for female referees. But being a female referee, I'm gonna ask this question, not a plan question, but have you experienced any chauvinism or misogyny from coaches, players, or gosh forbid, other referees?

SPEAKER_01 29:26

It's all of the above. It is not easy. I think all referees, we share the bond of it's a tough job out there. And but I think there are things that female referees experience that a male referee might not even be aware happened. So I can give you an example. Last fall I was doing a U13 SCCL, like lower-level club game. I had two brand new teenage ARs, and we were walking out to the pitch to the coach, as a male coach, and it was very clear, in my opinion, that I was the center referee and that I wasn't going to be in charge of that game. He did not even look at me and gave his roster right to one of the boys that I was working with, shook his hand, and then just turned around and continued his warm-up. Sometimes it's just little things like that. I did have a player at uh UPS Omic yell something about this is why women shouldn't be referees after he thought I should have called an offside. Little things like that, you'll hear them. But yeah, it being a female, it's it's challenging. And even just on a regular weekend, sometimes I'm gonna be the only girl in a male-dominated space. So it's just making sure that I'm working hard and proving that I'm just as good, if not better, than these boys that I'm working with.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

Yeah, no, totally. I I again, let's just let's just make sure everyone understands that comments like that that women shouldn't be officiating, if the referee heard that, I would just encourage everyone. That's a sending off offense, right? Like it it's it's a sexist comment meant to demean uh a member of our officiating crew. So for me, it's not a it's not a yellow card and it's not a warning of like, hey, don't say that. Like, no, no, no. That person needs to learn a lesson that is unacceptable, completely unacceptable here. And if you watch our the referee abuse policy videos, I mean it's clearly laid out there that's designed to insult and it's a sexist comment. So that is a send-off. We have to start sending people off for that, otherwise they're going to continue to think that it's acceptable. What we accept is what we promote. So we just uh, or permit is what we promote. So we can't allow that. So I'm so sorry that that has happened to you. And I know you and I have talked. I mean, there have even been things with other referees, you know, that have made you feel uncomfortable to pitch. And we don't have to go into it here, but it's out there without a doubt. And I'm sorry that it is. But just saying that, what about the female referees of Georgia community here? It's I I think when from you started to where we are today, has there been a change? Do you feel a change happening?

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Thanks to Shiva, who's one of the state's regional referees. She's a mentor, and she started the Frogs, the female referee organization of Georgia. We had our first women's event last fall, and we're on a group chat as well with women from all over the state, and we're continually trying to bring in girls who really want to grow in their game. The women that I have the privilege of working with are incredibly supportive of me. I've had the honor of working with Mary Fernandez. She's a fantastic regional referee and always supportive at my WPSL center and debut. I had Rosa Garcia. She was my fourth official. She was a former FIFA. I have, I had my AR1 and my first UPSL was Alia Rivera, and she was the Georgia female referee of the year. So we have incredible talent in the state. And I just can't believe I get to work with some of these girls. And some of them, especially the younger ones, are gonna be, they're gonna take it so far. And I can't wait in the future to say, oh, I got to re-line for her, she ran line for me. And no, it's a growing community and it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

Yeah, it those names you threw out, uh Shiva, what an unbelievable leader and phenomenal person. Aliyah again, referee of the year, just came out as well. And you were a nominee for referee of the year as well, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:39

So were you, so were you. We got our matching bag tag, and that's exciting.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

It is, but just some wonderful people and a phenomenal supportive community. So I and I do think it is so important because again, those experiences that you share as female referees are unique. And again, it's it still is a minority. I think at I would say the level that you're at right now, there's maybe 20 women in Georgia that could do a UPSL center, a referee assignment, maybe 25. I don't know, but there's it's a small community, and I think it's important to feel connected and supported and be able to share experiences. That just brings me to another question. Why do you think that community is so small? And why aren't more people, teachers like yourself, moms yourself, who have had kids in soccer, why are they not coming out to referee as well?

SPEAKER_01 34:29

That's a great question. Yeah, I don't know. I think you know some referees, when you start and then once life happens, and you maybe if you start a family or an actual your full-time job takes priority, things like refereeing can be put to the back burner or just something that you used to do. And but for me, it's been such a joy and it's so much fun that I don't know how to advertise it to women, other soccer moms that are that just love the game because it's fun. I'm not sure why. There's are some reasons. It's not easy. You you do put up with dissent and comments and this and but if you can just look past that, everything that you gain from it is so much more than the downside. So I don't know, I would just encourage anyone that's even thinking about it to just give it a try.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

Yeah. Just first off, just life happens without a doubt. And again, it's just from a data standpoint. There is a lot of data that a lot of times the responsibilities of the home and kids, even though both parents may work, a lot of those responsibilities often are picked up by the mother or the maternal figure in the house as opposed to the father. And it's hard to get away. It's hard to go away from 7 a.m. in the morning to 2 or 3 p.m. in the afternoon to do three or four games at a pitch when there's so many other responsibilities that are happening, and maybe they don't feel empowered that they can take that time to go do this thing on the soccer pitch, to go run and have fun and do that, even though it is another source of income. I think also the just generally what I have seen as well, and everyone receives dissent. I think everyone, whether man, woman, whatever, old, young, everyone gets dissent. But I have seen in particular that people feel more empowered to dissent towards female officials in particular. I have seen people that in one match, they will be saying things to the referee who's a woman that, you know, and they talk to me in a much calmer tone. Just very different, whether it's because I'm older or I've got gray hair or that I'm a man. I just the way they would speak with me or even question another assistant referee's decisions, if there's a woman on the other side of the field, the way they question her as opposed to me is different. And so I just wonder if that extra level of dissent and aggression towards women is just another thing. Yeah, this no thank you. I don't want to deal with this.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

Yeah, that's could definitely be true. And I know even for me, just my experience now, I didn't even get to referee high school. I wanted to do it for a little bit, but I can only do it now because my son got his driver's license. So he helps me with dance class pickups. And so that's great. I think a lot of that is true. It's just life gets in the way. But right now the perfect time, and even if I'm starting late.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

I love it. I'm so glad that you're here, without a doubt. Well, just a couple last questions for you. What is the one thing you have to do, eat, or listen to before a big match? You got big match day coming up, whether it's UPSL or something like that. What's one thing you gotta do?

SPEAKER_01 37:46

I know this is probably different from a lot of people, but listening to music before, even before when I was racing a lot or now soccer, it makes me more stressed up. I just need peace and quiet in my head. And I'm not a super stitchious person, but I do have my best pair of my favorite pair of socks and shorts. And there's just a few things I wear that I'm just and even my one of headband, like I have to have that one for those kind of games, you know, less next or higher than otherwise I just feel like something's missing. So it's one of those look good, feel good, and I don't know if it's not gonna look good, but it just for me it feels good. It's more about my outfit.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

That's weird, but oh no, it's totally a thing. I've definitely developed certain things that I can't live without now. I and if I don't have my Apple Watch charged, ready to go on my wrist with my ref six timer, dude, I'm lost. It's just something I've been using now for four or five years where I look down on my water, just know where things are at. It's just it's just it's so easy. If I'm just gonna use my crappy digital watch that I have in my bag and that's my only timer, I feel the same. It's just totally lost out there. And then also I refed in sneakers forever, right? And now I've got Pyrrhos. And if I don't have my Pyrrhos on, I just don't feel confident. And it's again, it's one of those things that's just like a I just want to feel confident when I cut, when I run, whatever I do, I just want to feel confident. And like those two things have become so ingrained in my thing, right? So even if I'm doing a U10 match where I know I'm not gonna have to run hard, I still need to have my gear on where I feel like I'm prepared to be a referee. And it's a thing, it's just something. I just want to feel like that. Those two items for me are like hey, I actually have an Apple Watch charger in my car now, just so that when I'm going to my games, I am making sure that watch is at 100%. It is not gonna die on my third match. Like, I gotta have my watch. It's just uh it's a thing that I do. So I totally empathize with that.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

I get that. I definitely I s like to center in my turf shoes and I don't just run turf shoes.

SPEAKER_00 40:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

Boss gotta put a professional.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

That's right. All right. Question for you. Can you talk about a moment, okay, a that a coach or a player, rather than dissent or chauvinum actually showed you some love or respect on the pitch or after a difficult call?

SPEAKER_01 40:28

I think a couple times just being able to use my language has been a really positive thing, but there's not a specific moment, but I think you rest a lot of the same clubs all the time. So the coaches get to know you. I know one coach in particular up here in North Atlanta, he he's from Brazil. He's super fun, but he's very passionate. So during the game, he's oh handball, all this, that. And then I'm just like, coach now. And he's and then after the game, like he'll always shake my hand, always give me a hug, and if he loses, big margin. So I just think always being positive, they know I'm out there, just trying to do my best. And I think in general, if you make an effort to establish some rapport, they'll be respectful and pretty good to you.

College Goals And Closing Support

SPEAKER_00 41:15

All right. Now the big looking forward question. You've hit the WPSL. Okay. You've done UPSL, which is meant. So the WPSL for all of known as the Women's Professional Soccer League, which is not our top tier, not the WSL. And there's different leagues out there. There's again, we've got WPSL, there are other semi-professional women's leagues. We've got the WUSL as well, the Super League that they call it. So there's different ones. And you've also done the UPSL, which is for the men. So what's next goal for you? Do you have a ref referee bucket list thing? Do you have something you're shooting for?

SPEAKER_01 41:46

Yeah. So I'm starting my application to hopefully get into college games. And so I'm working on that right now. I also got the beginning mentor certification. As I get older and one day slow down, hopefully I can take that avenue and be helpful, especially towards the female referees since I can just understand where they're coming from. And I know I would have never thought that I could be a regional referee, but now I'm like, yes, I can. Who knows? I might even start working towards that. Just I'm happy I'm getting the games that I want to get, and I'm having a ton of fun. I'm meeting amazing people, and I just look to continue to grow and get better and hopefully inspire some other girls, especially.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

Oh my gosh. Holly, what a pleasure having you on the podcast. Sincerely, I am so excited to see, you know, your growth. I've got I've gotten to see your rise. I think you were maybe only about a year and a half in before we connected, I think on Instagram. And now, two years later, you go from your first ever MLS Next match to now you're doing semi-pro men, the semi-pro women in front of 3,000 people at the debut for a major club here in our city. That is just outstanding. And it's so inspirational, I have to tell you. And I've said this so many times. We are better as a soccer community with more women in leadership positions, whether it's running clubs or as referees on the pitch, coaching teams as well. I just think it's a fantastic thing. So I'm so excited that you've had this success, and I can't wait for the next opportunity we get to work together.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

All right. Everyone out there, thank you so much for listening to today's podcast. I know you enjoyed that conversation. I can feel how much I enjoyed this conversation with Holly. As a reminder, please support the refs need love to store online. Everything gets poured back into making this channel possible. I actually just got, I'm about to post some really cool girl power coins. That's right, developed with a local AYSO group out in California where I'm going to be taking half the profits of every sale. Those coins and dedicating it back to supporting our female referees across the country. So that's news, brand new, telling it to you to Holly. Something I've been working on with two people. So that's now cat is out of that bag. So that's really exciting. But please go on, support the channel so I can continue to have wonderful people on like Holly and all the wonderful guests that we have and make people's worlds better. And as always, I hope your next match is red card free.