You Can Build A Referee Program That Kids Want To Join with Carlos Ledesma

The fastest way to lose a new referee is to certify them online and then throw them into the deep end on a busy weekend. We start with a few big updates from my world, including our first Dr. Tom Gerson Pops Memorial Scholarships for referees and why telling those stories every year matters to me and my family.

Then I’m joined by Carlos Ledesma, a Northern California assigner, director of referees, and certified mentor who has quietly built what a lot of leagues are missing: a repeatable system to recruit, train, develop, and retain soccer referees. Carlos breaks down how he sells refereeing to 13 and 14-year-olds, why shadowing works in real games, and how club scrimmages can become a low-pressure training ground where new officials learn mechanics, positioning, pregame routines, and confidence before the first “real” assignment.

We also get practical about referee safety and retention: sideline seating policies that keep spectators off the assistant referee’s back, strict zero tolerance expectations, and the underrated step of communicating with referees after a referee abuse report so they know action was taken. If you’re an assigner, club leader, coach, or referee mentor trying to solve the referee shortage with better training instead of wishful thinking, you’ll leave with a model you can copy.

Subscribe for more behind-the-scenes referee conversations, share this with your local club, and leave a review so more officials and assigners can find the show.

Transcript

Teaser: Scrimmages Build Better Refs

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Support them, have those trainings, have the scrimmages. Even if you your club can't pay for it, that's a fine. But offer them your teams will love it because they'll get referees. Your coaches, they'll have referees for their scrimmages, and now they could coach instead of having a referee at all times. And and then the referees will have their practice. But I think it it all it'll do is help develop your pool of referees in numbers and in experience and knowledge.

New Projects, Family Time, And Presence

Meet Carlos Ledesma And His Roles

Making Refereeing Feel Cool

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Hey guys, we have a great show for you today. Couple big announcements from me. First off, we have finally awarded the first ever Dr. Tom Gerson Pops Memorial Scholarships for referees. Originally, we were only going to do two$750 scholarships for this first run, but we wound up doing four. So if you don't remember, I created this scholarship in memory of my dad. My brother and I, we had a couple things we wanted to do to memorialize my dad forever. It was just something very important for us. My dad was just a good, good dude. He cared about hard work, about friends, about family, and really about education. And so we created this Refs Need Love Too scholarship, My Family, My Wife, and My Kids, as a way to be able to tell his story every single year and be able to help support kids in affording secondary education, whether they want to go to vocational school or get some type of secondary degree or go to college, whatever their path in life was. We wanted to create this so we can keep on telling a story and keeping it alive for many years to come. Well, the applications we got were just phenomenal. And we sat around as a family and read through every single one, made sure they weren't AI, that was a real person. They sent in pictures and videos, and it was hard to make a final decision. There were two that just really rose to the top for us. Emma Sakat and Arno Arnov Bot were the two grand prize winners. And by the way, it doesn't I again, I come from uh an immigrant family, so it's kind of interesting that the top two wound up being from immigrant families as well, but their applications are phenomenal. I mean, amazing students. Emma is studying entrepreneurship at Williams College. Uh, Arnov is studying, I think it was industrial and systems engineering at UC Berkeley this fall. They're both doing amazing things in their referee community. They're doing outreach, they're working with teams, working with clubs. They're Emma's doing TED Talks. Arnov built an entire website specifically to recruit referees and has been on national television. Pretty amazing stuff. So they were fantastic. But there were two other people that we were just like, oh my gosh, they're unreal too, Henry and Gia. Henry started being an assigner at 18 years old, is already a regional referee, is just fantastic. Again, goes to Stanford currently, and Gia just she comes from a referee family, has experienced some severe injuries, tearing ACL, MCL, and then wound up picking up a refereeing to kind of stay in the game and has been doing wonderful things with her own volunteer work in her area. But they were just four people who I knew that my dad would be like, wow, they're amazing. They're fantastic. How can we support them? So thrilled to be sending those$750 and$250 checks their way and looking forward to doing the scholarship next year. I'm also going to open up an international scholarship as well, because I had a lot of people reach out from other countries asking how they could be involved. And we're going to figure out a way to do specifically a scholarship for those who are abroad, because I think that's really important. Additionally, my brother and I announced last week that we have set up the Dr. Tom Gerson Engineering Technology Memorial Fund at a Queensborough Community College where my dad was a professor for 37 years. And it was amazing. I went back there on Monday morning because we were up there for his celebration of life in New York this weekend. And the place has not changed. Literally has not changed. The floors, the walls, like just everything about those classrooms is almost the exact same. And I say that in a good way and a bad way. It was definitely a lot of nostalgia, but they need investment. It's a community college. They don't get a ton of investment. They get a few grants here or there, but I know that our fund that we set up is going to have a significant impact on those students, on getting them the software, uh, the hardware, the tools that they need to continue advancing and moving forward in their degrees there at the community college. And also, I should say, too, that one of my dad's former students and someone who was my dad was a mentor of this man is the current chairperson of the department. So he gave us a tour and was telling stories about my dad. And it's just, it was so cool. So wonderful that we got to do those things to memorialize my father. And then finally, on that, this weekend was my dad's celebration of life in New York City. And again, we are just so grateful that my dad set things up like this. And I've told my family, listen, when I go, I want the same type of thing. I want a celebration of life. It was just when my dad passed away, there was just so much grief and so many emotions to work through. I couldn't imagine having all the friends and family come to one location and then in one day just have that thing like upon us. I wouldn't have been able to process it. I wouldn't have been able to enjoy seeing the friends and family. But at these celebration of life, we really had the time to chill, to hang out, to laugh, to love, to take pictures, to just get together. It was so wonderful. We get to tell my stories about my dad and all the reasons why we loved him and all the funny things that made him a special man. It was just so fantastic. So I've been a little busy lately. I mean, that's all beyond my full-time job at SoCal Soccer League, where we're literally right about to launch a new learning management system. I've been building out every single law of the game, plus another 10 to 15 other videos to help new referees and existing referees really feel confident out there and with a full knowledge of the laws of the game beyond anything that's currently available. So really excited about that. And then the ref sneed love to business has been just wild. I announced yesterday publicly that I have been named one of the 30 people in the world that's partnering with a TikTok and FIFA to be a creator correspondent. So beyond Fox News here in the United States, there's going to be Gerson. And there's like about 10 other creators who are going to be kind of analyzing footage from match of the day and big decisions from the World Cup. I'm going to be going to six different matches in five different cities. I'll be in Philadelphia, Boston, New York, Kansas City, and then also a couple games here in Atlanta as well. So it's just a really exciting time for us. I also have my kids home right now. So my my daughter's home from the summer from Alabama. We picked her up. My son's home from Clemson for a couple more days, so trying to spend as much time as I can with him and my wife. And it's just it's been a wild times, but just in general, feeling wonderful, feeling grateful. Started doing some orange theory fitness action, which is intense. I tell you, greatest workout of my life. I'm going again this afternoon. My daughter and I have been doing classes together to stay in shape this summer. So it's been fantastic. My dog's just had a birthday. My best friend Chip, who's nine years old, he just had a birthday. So it's fantastic. And yeah, just trying to every moment be grateful for where I am, be grateful for what's going on in my life, be grateful for the health and well-being of my family, being grateful for the relationships that I have with my friends who I've known for the overwhelming majority of my life now. Just being grateful. That is what it's all about. Being present, being thankful, being grateful, and just trying to love life. And I and I love you guys for listening to this podcast and supporting me every step of the way. So many of you have been there since the very beginning of this channel and have sent me so much positive news from of support, have engaged with me in questions, have just shared your own personal stories and struggles and life. And I just, again, I'm just grateful. So without any further ado, guys, I've got uh Carlos Ledesma, who is an assigner and mentor uh out in Northern California. We are about to start getting into that season again of recruiting referees and developing refs for new the next season. I really think you're going to enjoy this conversation. Listen up, because he's got some really great strategies on how to recruit, train, develop, and retain referees. So enjoy. Hello and welcome to the Refs Need Love2 Podcast, a show that gives you a real, raw, and behind-the-scenes view of one of the hardest jobs of the pitch, a referee. I'm your host, David Gerson, a grassroots referee and certified mentor with over 11 years of experience in over 1,400 matches under my belt. You can find me at refsneadlove2.com on Instagram, TikTok, and now YouTube. And I will tell you, I sound a little different today. We had a major flood in my house last week, so I'm coming to you from my office and not even using the Pro Mic, just going through the laptop, but I really wanted to have a conversation for the longest time with our next guest, Carlos Ledesma. He's played soccer his entire life, coached both kids, a girl and a boy for many years, and was a parent spectator from his teens on. And then he began referee 11 years ago, and he's refereed over 1,500 games from all levels to recreational and competitive high school. And then did the thankless job of becoming an assigner and has been an assigner for nine years. He also became a certified mentor plus, like me as well. And now he's currently the director of referees and assigner for two local clubs, Roseville SC and Loomis SC, and co-assigner for high school and middle school refs in their area, which is in Northern California, with one of my good buddies, Scott Milsap, you may know from the channel, Reffing with the Sappers. And I'm going to tell you, Scott, for the longest time ever since I started getting to know him, he was like, You've got to interview Carlos. He's doing so many great things for our referees in our era. You'll love talking to him. So, Carlos, welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much. I'm very excited. Yeah, no, I'm excited. Again, it's one of the these things. And when you hear about good people who are doing things right and creating a great environment for referees to grow and develop, that's a very special thing. Because we hear all the time about how we've got a referee shortage and we have all these problems. So in your area, and I want to learn a little about your area of where you guys were assigning and working with these clubs, you've got 4,000 players in these two organizations. So you've got a pretty big audience of players out there that you could be marketing to to become referees. But how do you, in your era, how do you convince a 13, 14-year-old player that being a ref is cool? Hey, you need to come out and do this.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Before COVID, I was always focused on because of my own experience and my son's experience, because he started refinging when he was 12. So he he and I ref together. And because of our experiences when we first started refing, we were basically thrown out into the deep end. And I didn't feel like there was a lot of training. So because of that, it needed the whole program needed to be revamped and from the very beginning, from the field session, it needed to be to where the new referees felt supported and consistent training too. Because you do your online stuff and it's only what eight hours, I think, of out of six to eight hours of online stuff, and they're just basically going through the motions and answering the questions and in one ear at the other kind of thing. And then you have a three-hour field session, which is just hitting the it's just the tip of the iceberg. So on top of that, then we came up with a uh shadowing program uh and scrimmages. I use our club's scrimmages to get them so they can re can scrimmage and have referees. They use those scrimmages to then also train the referees. And uh maybe a one-year referee that wants to try the whistle can do it on a scrimmage. And I always sell it by saying it's a scrimmage. There's no pressure. It the scores does the scores don't matter. Coaches aren't gonna yell at you, parents aren't gonna yell at you. So it helps them to get a little bit more comfortable and starts to thicken their skin a little bit. And so that's kind of how I how it's how it all started, how I could sell it to them because now it's mostly word of mouth. Now it's their friends recruiting for me. Now it's their older brothers and sisters who have been going through the program. They tell their own parents, oh, my my son, daughter, they've had a great experience of refing my my 12-year-old turns turns 13 in May. I'd like to get them signed up. And so yeah, it just kind of snowballed. COVID kind of knocked us down a little bit, but I kept with it, and and now we're ramping up, and we have a good amount of referees. That's so cool.

Shadowing Explained In Real Games

SPEAKER_02 13:24

I do want to step back, ask you about the shadowing one second. So when you talk about shadowing for a referee, and first off, I think every single referee who listens to this podcast probably had a very similar experience where you do this online course, which you could do while watching Premier League one Saturday morning, just kind of click it's not that in-depth or confusing or crazy. And then obviously the safe sport you go through and and a healthy play environments, whatever it might be. But it's a six, seven hours. And then you're right, that in-person training course is like the basics of holding a flag, pretty much. And that's it. There's no laws of the game. People are always shocking, there's no laws of the game that's being taught. You're not learning what is a foul, what's not a foul, anything like that. But you talk about instead of just doing that and that new referee training course, the next thing you talked about was shadowing. So, what is shadowing to you and how do you facilitate that?

SPEAKER_01 14:14

So, in shadowing, what it is either either in a scrimmage or in an actual game, I'll use our spring season games currently, any level from uh 7v7s to 11v11s, where they actually have a crew and I'll have the crew wear the three of them wear a different color jersey, the same color jersey, the three of them. And then everybody else wears another color jersey, and then there's basically just running up and down behind the actual assistant referee and making the exact same flag mechanics, calls as the center referee does. Or sorry, the assistant referee does. And then sometimes on scrimmages too, I could have one center referee in them in on the field, and then another just shadowing them as well. Going through, blowing the whistle every now and then, or learning positioning. And that's what shadowing basically is. It's just getting out there to see an actual game from the referee perspective, running up and down, holding the flag, using the flag or the whistle, and while the game is going on. Now because now you have to process everything a little bit differently than if they're a player or if they're a spectator.

unknown 15:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

I like that so much more than the current model. And I would just say, you know, I was I was literally just on a phone call before this with someone from our state referee committee out in California, and it was talking about, gosh, it'd be really great to get referees signed up. There's so many tournaments throughout Southern California. It would be great to get new refs out there. They'll get so many reps and all that kind of stuff. But it's also the challenge, again, you get these people who are traveling for these big national, international tournaments, and then they're going to have some brand new referee on their line or with the whistle who doesn't really know what they're doing. It's not great for the referee because there's very heightened expectations. It's not great for the players, parents, and coaches who are expecting a certain level of quality at a certain event or something nature. So you've got these unmatched, unmet expectations, and it leads to a lot of conflict. And the shadowing that you're describing from scrimmage, low pressure situation, someone who's actually out there with someone else, right? Who can really start to see, oh, that's what it looks like when you're perfectly lined up with the second to last opponent. Oh, this is where I should be to be able to see this. And even just be able to talk through. If I was a referee and I blew the whistle, and I could literally say to that person, all right, did you see that? Do you have any questions about that? What did you see on that play? What are your thoughts? Do you think that should have been a card? Whatever it might be. But to be able to have that kind of dialogue while going through all the motions, I could definitely see how that might increase someone's confidence when they have to be the person with the whistle. And you could even, I'm assuming you could even switch off, right? Like you can say, okay, now you shadow. Okay, now you do it and see what happens.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

And it's twofold too. Because the crew that's actually being shadowed, they have to also be on their toes. And now they're also mentoring, right? They're also teaching the new referees on how to do a good job out there, right? So it sharpens their skills as well.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

There's someone who once said it's like the I can't remember who said the quote or where the quote came from, but there's a great quote about if you really want to learn a subject, prepare to teach it. Because you can imagine if you're a 15-year-old kid and you've been entrusted with this 12-year-old or 13-year-old kid behind you, and you're responsible for them to make sure they're doing it right, okay, you're going to tighten up. You're going to be a little bit more aware of your body language. You're going to be a little bit paying a little bit more attention if you have the right kid to exactly where they stand and what they're looking for, and verbalizing that to someone else as well. And you're going to walk a little bit taller. It's yeah, it really does change it for the person who's actually reffing that scrimmage or being the assistant for that scrimmage with someone shadowing them, looking up to them. It changes that dynamic. I love that you do that. That's so cool.

unknown 18:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

I guess somebody interested, just a picture of this too. It's not just one person shadowing. Sometimes I have the assistant referee and three or four other assistants behind them running up and down the field. And then they rotate, well, up to the front, go to the back, and then the background in the front, and so on and so forth. But that also they get to know each other, also. They get to see that they really are the family and do three or four scrimmages. You see the same few referees here and there, and then you actually see them in games. Uh it just becomes more of a community now as well. So it's turned into something originally. I just wanted to help mostly the young team referees feel comfortable, but I think it's just turned into something bigger than even I expected because I just all I wanted to do was help. But I think it's helped with training all around.

SPEAKER_02 19:13

So I want to hear about this. You're talking about we created this kind of culture and this environment where people want to coom. Yeah, do you have like of how many people that you've brought into this program? And is this just the overall rough community that you're developing? It sounds like you've got a good handle on a recruiting, bringing in good talent, and developing talent. How many people are we talking about? How many referees are you guys working with?

Scaling Recruiting With Monthly Courses

SPEAKER_01 19:38

On my list, I probably have about uh there's 867 referees on my refereeing platform. I can't say that all of them are actively refereeing. Of course. But I do I have a course, uh a CNRA course every month. So in uh starting in February, all the way through August and even September, except for June, because CNRA does not have a course in in June. But I'll have uh a new referee course every month starting in February where 30 to 40 new referees join the course. So over 100 referees because through attrition as well, I lose referees because they go off to college or they just quit altogether, but I'm able to replenish and some every year. And then so now my focus is I have plenty of assistant referees. Yeah, but now I'm my goal is to of course develop them, but then also develop some center referees as well.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

Yeah, I was just running the numbers. You guys have actually double the amount of referees in your system to based on the players. You said 4,000 players in your leagues that you assigned for, you have double the amount of referees than we have in Cal South per player. So I just did the math on it. That's twice as many. So you guys are in some really solid shape there, which is fantastic. So I just want to kind of go back when you're reaching out to these referees, and I love that you've created this word of mouth. But is there are there some myths about refereeing that you've got to bust immediately to sign up? Is there something specific from what do you guys like? How are you selling this to your referees?

Reducing Fear With Seating And Enforcement

SPEAKER_01 21:18

What's your pitch, man? Well, the first one is I don't want to get yelled at. That's what they usually say. Oh no, I don't want to be yelled at. But what what I say is, okay, look, we have our the seating, our seating policy that you you also use in Southern California, right? So I said we have a seating policy that usually behind you.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

Let's explain that for everyone what we're talking about. Because I know you and I both understand, but we're talking about where the parents sit to the left of the bench, if you will, the technical area. So the technical area is a little bit to the right of the half-field line, and then the parents sit to the left of that. The assistant network. Right. The parents, you only have one set of parents on one sideline. And so the Assistant referee is working on the other half of the field, okay, on that same sideline. So no one is behind them. So there's no parents behind them. You've got no coaches really behind them at all. That they can work without having to worry about someone being behind them, like judging every single thing they do, yelling at them. They are free to move. So the other sidelines, the same thing. Parents again sit to the left of their team, and the assistant referee is working to the right of the team, so there's no one behind them. So that, I agree, immediately creates a pretty safe space for them to come ref. So I'd love that you guys do that.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Yeah, that and the fact that we also are very strict on our zero tolerance tolerance policy. And now that uh U.S. soccer also has uh a reinforced zero tolerance policy or their rap is very important as well, too. So they they understand uh again through word of mouth, if I had brothers or sisters who have gone through the program, they themselves feel supported. Uh, and if they were to get yelled at, then there'll be repercussions for the person that violates the zero tolerance policy tolerance policy.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

I have a question for you. So when you have a situation where there has been a violation of the, when we say rap, just for everyone out there, referee abuse policy, technically US 531-9 on the referee abuse policy. That's the code for U.S. doc. But I'm really curious, how do you handle the communication with the referee? Let's say you have a referee who has been verbally abused, someone has yelled at them, you don't know what the F you're doing, or something like that. So they've cussed. And hopefully during the game, the referee has sent that parent or coach or player off. What do you guys do with the referee? Do you ever communicate back to the referee and hey, just want to let you know we received this, your supplemental report. Thank you for doing that. Just want to let you know that person has been suspended four games or six games. Is there any communication that goes back to them, kind of letting them know, hey, that's been dealt with?

SPEAKER_01 23:59

We do have communication with the referees. I'll let them know what happened. I don't give maybe too many details about the PAD decision, right? Or if it goes to PAD, but in general, I do let them know what happened with it and again make them feel supported and comfortable to return. Yeah, Carlos, I gotta tell you, I don't think that's the norm.

A Step By Step Onboarding System

SPEAKER_02 24:18

And I mean, I have to tell you, honestly, for me, I because I review all of our referee abuse policy reports here in Southern California, I hadn't been communicating to the referees what action was taken in the first three, four weeks that I was in the role. But now I actually make it a point and I send it to the assigner and to the referee. Hey, just letting you know this was deemed a level two violation of the referee abuse policy and the minimum, or and the suspension is X, whatever it is. And just so that they know something has happened, because I've been in the situation so many times, and I know other people where there has been a violation. Before we had the policy, it was just a send-off at that time, and you hope someone else will deal with it. But now, or just I've just heard from lots of people, it's hey, I fill out the supplemental report, and then I don't get, I don't know if anything's happened. I don't know if they just swept it under the rug and the person is back on the sideline again next week. I just think it's so nice to know that you're taking that extra time to, hey, communicate, number one. So sorry that happened. Let's talk about that. But also, hey, just letting you know, we have taken action on this, so the referee feels supportive. Let's talk about again this young ref training program that you go through. So you got this ref, hey, I'm interested. They go and they take the online course to get certified. Let's I want to understand the process here. You talked about a little shadowing, you talked about scrimmages and things like that, but what's the program look like to get them fully up to speed?

SPEAKER_01 25:43

It starts with getting them set up with assigner and then have them go through that process, even through the scrimmage. I'll put the scrimmages on the assigning platform so that they also learn how to go in and request their games, accept or decline the games, look for uh open games that they can pick up, and and they start getting their uh uh account set up, and then they go through that process and they comfortably get comfortable using the assigning platform. And then through through the scrimmages and games, I'm th I'm there for most of them. If I'm not there, then I have other veteran referees or or even not so veteran referees who are willing to impart their wisdom, what they've learned and teach them as well through the process. And uh a lot of them take advantage of it now. I the club has uh allowed me to pay them twenty dollars to come out, so they'll earn a little money because it's it's I I was thinking they have to invest, they have to pay for the course, they have to buy their kits, right? And so now they're in maybe two hundred dollars and they haven't started making any money. So I offer them twenty dollars to come out and do those scrimmages or the shadowing, yeah, and then they come out in droves. Yeah, I'll put the scrimmage out on on the assigning platform, and I'll have I may have room for three or four, and I'll have twenty for each position.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

I bet.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Of course, a lot of them want the want the twenty dollars and I'm fine with it, but at least I'll come out and they'll go through the motions and they'll get the mechanics and they'll understand the process. It also I get I require them to be there 30 minutes early. Yeah, what we do, actual game time, how what we're looking for on the field, how to check in the teams, how to set up team benches with the coaches. Oh my gosh. When they do have that first game, it's secondhand.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

I can't even tell you how many times I've seen a kid show up to the field for their first game ever, and they have no clue what's going on. They've never met another referee before, they have no idea where to go, what to do. And again, it's it is such a in the scheme of things, it is such a small investment for those clubs to pay to have those referees do a scrimmage first, to then again make sure that when they do actually go out to the game, that they've got someone who has had some experience and has been coached through that experience as well. Learn, hey, this is good, this is not good, before they actually get on a game. It's like a it's a little itty bitty investment, but what a massive difference that is. And then the other thing I would say too is if someone gets out there for the scrimmage and they're like, Yeah, yo, this is not for me, at least they're not exper like finding that out on a game, or they're assigned three games of the day. They're like, Oh, yeah, this is definitely not for me. Maybe they figure that out the scrimmage. Good, okay, because it's not for everyone. But I love that you're doing pregame, you're doing field inspection, and then they're actually getting to officiate or shadow someone officiating, taking terms officiating before they ever have to get on the field themselves.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

And you earlier you said it is an investment for the club. It is a really good investment because they're getting the referees are being trained as well. They're not just being thrown out there, and they're for even first game, first rec games, they have a referee that's gone through a handful of scrimmages.

SPEAKER_02 29:19

Yeah. What age group are you using for your scrimmages? Do you modify us? I'll use any age group, frankly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Yeah. And I've also added the club, has also allowed me to add, I know a lot of clubs do 7v7s with the solo referees.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

I add the assist the referees$20 so that they can use the 7v7s for uh also training.

Teaching Communication And Building Mentors

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Again, I know some people are like, oh, it's a waste of uh assist to refer re something like that. I was like, yeah, but it's a low pressure environment, but you've got a build out line and learn how to look about, look for offside and use the bill outline, or learn about the laws of the game and how to manage a build-out line and headers or no headers for for that matter, and just have that experience moving on the line and moving with play and potentially watching another referee work. Again, it's a thing where it's an investment. Like even if people like, oh, you don't need a no, but it's a great place to potentially learn how to be a referee on that line. So I I think it's I think it is a good place. And I'm also agreeing, man. But 20 bucks may not sound like an outrageous amount of money to an adult in this day and age, but to a 13, 14-year-old kid, 20 bucks is good money. And I think as a parent, if you know your kid is coming home with$20, that's nice. You're learning the value of money, you're earning money. Maybe you save, maybe you spend the other a little bit, get your own Starbucks if you can even afford a Starbucks for$5 anymore. But stuff like that, I think it's a good first step. Like you talked about you don't want anyone to deal with getting yelled at and you do enforce a zero tolerance policy, which I want to ask more about that. But before we get to the point of a send-off, do you work with your referees or do any trainings or any webinars or anything about de-escalation tactics or actually having conversations with a coach at all or players when things start to get to that border-laid place where there might need to be a card?

SPEAKER_01 31:25

I don't have I don't have a set program that that deals with that just yet. I've been trying to I now that I've gotten I I'm out of point with this uh recruit recruiting program first with the developing the assistant referees program. That's almost on autopilot, if you will. I can focus on like I said, I was I'm now focusing more on center developing center referees. I think that what you're talking about will come with that next step. You could always hire me, Brona.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

I've got a great, I have a great presentation on. I call it like calm in the chaos. It's a managing challenging environments. I also do another great one I just developed on direct free kick offenses. It's so good. And I finished my handball presentation today. But yeah, no, if I can help you, let me know. But it is the we'll get the club pitch up here. I'm telling you, man, it'd be a lot of fun. Um yeah, it's hard sometimes for kids to understand what words to use when they're dealing, especially that dynamic. I'm a 14-year-old kid and I'm dealing with a 40-year-old coach or even a 25-year-old coach, should even be more of a challenge, without a doubt, what words to use when they are feeling that things might be crossing the line. Teaching teenagers how to have that conversation, it doesn't come naturally. It's a skill that has to be taught, no doubt. How about beyond the pitch? So I love what you're doing, shadowing. I love that you've got mentors out there watching those first games and things that nature. Do you do any kind of like peer-to-peer mentoring where maybe you have someone who's been a referee for three or four years, and you'll maybe you'll set them up together on crews or have other uh opportunities for younger referees to meet people who may be a few years beyond them on the pitch?

SPEAKER_01 33:12

I I don't have a set like a assigned mentorship program where like what you're talking about, but like I mentioned before, I I do have it set up to where I do have a handful of referees who can run a shadowing, for example, on a game or a scrimmage, and they're happy to do it. And that is probably the extent of what I would call a mentoring program. Uh but no, I think that's a good idea that I think it needs to happen soon because I we have a lot obviously with the 867 referees on the list, uh there's a ton that that can there's a lot of knowledge there. There's a lot of experience there. And then yeah, there can definitely be a program where the assigned mentorship would be good for the for new referees or referees that have been around for a little bit and now want to be a center referee. That that would be helpful, I think.

Zero Tolerance In Day To Day Practice

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Talk a little bit about the club itself. Okay, so there's two different clubs that you are the assigner for with these 4,000 players, um, and then these 867 referees who you have on your list and you you use to assign these matches. You talked about a zero tolerance policy. I want to understand what that means to you and these clubs. What is a zero tolerance policy look like in practice in your neck of the woods?

SPEAKER_01 34:35

For me and our club, zero tolerance is you basically don't talk to the referee. That the teenager might not want to talk with a teenager. If it's an adult, it's gotta be, it has to be respectful. No yelling at the referees. If we go through, it's basically what rap is. I don't have anything more special than what the referee abuse policy is, referee abuse program. It is broken down into those levels that that we re- review, and as a pad, uh the club forms a pad and decides on the consequences based on what the situation entails. I don't know if you're familiar with Northern California, the Sacramento area, but I'm in Roseville and it's in South Placer County. About 20 miles from Sacramento. But Placerville is a little bit of a different world than Sacramento County. We have a few cities where we're it's 4,000 people people or 4,000 uh players because it's basically four three or four cities here are the community. And although we are Roseville, we do have players from other cities playing with us. Uh and with Loomis, same thing. It's Loomis is a smaller town, smaller club, less players, less referees for that particular pool, although now they've overlapped a little bit with Roseville and Loomis, which is good for Loomis because now they have extra referees as well. With a zero tolerance policy, now everyone gets on board with it. And as far as the club goes, yes, we're gonna enforce it and we're gonna divvy out consequences as we see fit.

Life Skills, Leadership, And Next Goals

SPEAKER_02 36:14

Again, I love all the support that you're providing to your referees, which is fantastic. Let's kind of talk about go forward for you. Right now, it sounds like you've got a great group of referees. 867 registered, certified referees in your pool is a big number for a league of 4,000 players. It's really big. What's your goals? Next step for you. What are you hoping for out of your association, the referees in it? Is it just expanding the pool? Is it more development opportunities? Is it setting these people up for leadership later in life? What's kind of next steps for you?

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Yeah, I want to help the uh the other clubs nearby do the same thing and develop freeze in this manner because I think it helps them in life. And a lot of young referees that were a bit of an introvert took to referee and absolutely love it. And now they're I hear from parents, oh, he's a he's quiet, but keeps to himself, but he became a referee, and now he's excited and he's chatty or he's he's enjoying it. And I want them to keep doing this for their like my son, for example, he started when he was 12 and he's never stopped. He's at UC Santa Barbara and he's ref there. And I think it's helped him I think he wrote about it for his application to law school, and I think it helped him get into it because it built a certain character, and for him, I think it's helped him in their personal lives, uh in their growth. And that's really mostly what I want, is just for them to grow as citizens, as humans, and use this, because it really is a great first-time job for teenagers, uh, and it teaches them a lot of great life skills, how to deal with people, how to handle emotions. And so that's for now, that's mainly my goal is just to make sure they enjoy it and they're learning and they continue doing it. And if they become great center referees, if they move on to MLS, that's great.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

All right. Last parting words here. If you could just chat with referee association and club, yeah, like both the big club and you know, someone who assigns for a big club, uh, or maybe the state referee committee, what if you were going to really just sell them? Why they need to change the model instead of just going from these virtual training classes now and throwing people randomly out on a pitch, that's right, without even in person anymore, to this new model that you're doing where yes, you're doing the online portion, but then you're actually giving people these shadowing opportunities and these opportunities to have a whistle in scrimmages and multiple times and paying them to do that, and then actually getting to them onto the field with this much higher retention rates. How would you explain it to them? If you were going to give them the short, like one-minute pitch, two minutes of why this is better, give it to me.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

I'm not hurting for referees. I assign on a fall day 130, 140 games, and I have assistant referees to spare. So by getting on the program and recruiting, having a course, not just one course a year or two courses a year, have multiple courses, support them, have those trainings, have the scrimmages. Even if you your club can't pay for it, that's fine. But offer them, your teams will love it because they'll get referees. Your your coaches, they'll have referees for their scrimmages, and now they could coach instead of having a referee for all teams, and and then the referees will have their practice. But I think it all it'll do is help develop your pool of referees in numbers and in experience and knowledge.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

Not only again, it's nice to know that games are being assigned that we have enough referees to cover the game so that kids can play. That's right, that's what it's all about. It's growing the game and getting kids out there and being active and participating, but you're creating this opportunity for a lot of people in your community to also give back and participate and learn and grow. But then you're giving them the tools, the experience, and the support to thrive and come back year after year and not experience this horrible turnover that we have throughout the rest of our country. And I know the world. So, Carlos, I just want to say, man, thank you so much for coming on the pod and sharing your knowledge, wisdom, and model for doing this right. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

Well, it's my pleasure. And we focused on teenagers, but it I've also it's also been a great opportunity for adults as well. So their parents, uh other adults that that come to the program, they've enjoyed it. Even some of the new referees that that signed up, I usually tend to have more teenagers than you do adults, but now I'm getting more adults as well. And they're enjoying it. And now, guess what? They have a little extra vacation money or something, whatever they want to put in their pockets.

Closing Thanks And Store Reminder

SPEAKER_02 41:04

Absolutely, man. Who would not want an extra couple thousand dollars a year of fun money to take the family on the vacation or a couple really wonderful celebration dinners or something like that, or get a nice gift for your loved ones. And all at the game and be involved in the game and stay active. Community. I tell you, that is well, there's so much data out there about that being part of a community is such a key part of happiness in life. So, yeah, Carlos, man, thank you so much. I love having you on there. And for everyone out there listening today, thank you so much for the support of the Rust Need Love2 on Linux store. Again, please head to RustneedLove2.com, check out the merge, get yourself like a performance top to go into your jersey, stuff like that. Look yourself up with the new pro scorecards or got a new version coming out in the next couple days, maybe a brand new whistle of flags. Everything goes back into making this channel possible. So again, pros can thank you so much and everyone out there. I hope your next match is right for three.