World Cup Concerns on the "For Ref's Sake!" Podcast

The strangest part about refereeing is that everyone sees you, but almost nobody knows you. This week David was a guest on the "For Ref's Sake" podcast. 

We talk about how I went from a grassroots soccer referee turned global creator during the COVID era, which sparked a community where referees, coaches, players, and parents can finally talk about the game like humans. What happens when officials stop being faceless and start being approachable, educational, and honest about how decisions get made?

We get into the real craft of officiating: why the Laws of the Game are subjective, how positioning and angle change everything, and how to discuss big moments like DOGSO, SPA, serious foul play, reckless challenges, and offensive or insulting language without turning it into clickbait. David shares why he tries to lead with a teacher’s heart, how he keeps up with the flood of clips and questions, and what it takes to build a sustainable refereeing platform that includes short-form content, long-form podcasting, and referee gear that funds the work.

Then we zoom out to World Cup 2026 in the United States. David lays out concerns many fans are not hearing loudly enough: visa barriers, high costs, heat and humidity, political headwinds, and the possibility of empty seats early on. But there is optimism too, including why ticket and housing prices may drop and why visitors can still expect warmth from everyday Americans. We close with a simple standard for any official who wants to level up: integrity, courage, a willingness to learn, and a deep love for the game.

Subscribe for more conversations that make you better on the pitch, share this with a ref who needs encouragement, and leave a review with your biggest referee lesson or sideline story.

Transcript

Big Updates And World Cup Worries

SPEAKER_03 0:03

Hey everyone, very special podcast this week. I was the guest on the For Ref's sake podcasts, which is run by a couple grassroots referees out of England, and we had a phenomenal conversation. I mean, it just ranged all sorts of different topics. This is actually part two of our conversation because we've covered so much ground. We had to break it into two parts. I think you will really enjoy. Definitely check out their podcast and subscribe if you haven't already. But I think you'll like this one. I mean, we talked about, yes, the beginning of this channel and how it started and what's going on right now, and the fact that I'm now a FIFA TikTok collaborator, commentator, correspondent, whatever you want to call it. It's gonna be a lot of fun and it's gonna be really crazy for the next couple months of my life. But you know, they also asked me about some of my fears and concerns about whether or not this will be as success as the World Cup. And again, I think the product on the field is gonna be good. I trust me, as we get to the later rounds, it's gonna be great. It's gonna be magical, just like every World Cup is. But getting there, there are gonna be a bunch of empty stadiums. There are still a lot of concerns about ticket prices, and getting to the US right now is difficult. It's expensive, you know, there's an energy shortage and in all throughout the rest of the world, outside of the US right now, in Europe and Asia. Um, Africa, if you want to come to this country right now, in some places you need to put up a $15,000 bond to get a visa. You know, Congo is in the World Cup. How many people from Congo do you think we're letting in if this Ebola outbreak that's currently happening over there spreads? Probably none. So you are going to see some empty stadiums. And there's a lot of reasons for that. You know, yes, it's kind of a geopolitical thing and people's thoughts about America this day and age. You know, again, I want to assure you guys I am a very proud American. I'm wearing my USA jersey today because I'm going to our national training center today to go watch a match over there for one of our extended teams and take a tour of the space. Really proud of US, love our US national team. But yeah, there are concerns, and I think we should appreciate how the rest of the world views us and how that's going to affect the World Cup. That's not political, that's reality. Now,

Father’s Day Ref Gear And Discounts

SPEAKER_03 2:07

going forward, Father's Day is in about three weeks. And if you're a dad or you know someone who's a dad who's a referee, please, please, please direct them to the refsnylov2.com store online. That helps pay for this podcast. That's right. It costs money. These microphones, these fees that I pay for the software to be able to do all the editing and posting and hosting cost a lot of money. So please go to the store. All that money gets invested back into this channel and making it possible. I've actually hired a full-time, well, on contract, a social media manager for a couple months, helping me through this crazy World Cup stage. I'd like to keep her on board long time. You know, if you guys can buy more, I could. That would be great. I can create more content and actually have more of a life. That would be wonderful. But if you haven't gotten the USSF two-stripe grip socks, check those out. I got fun ref socks as well, which is a great gift. So much fun. I've updated the scorecards to now have a penalty kick tracker on the back of that. You know, you've got my red and yellow cards with the pregame checklist on it. There's merch. You could have refs needlove too, like underlayers and stuff, which would be so awesome and so cool. Again, whistle, you name it. The buzzer flags if you're gonna be doing college matches this year, so much stuff. If you want to get new shoes, Umpiro, you know, go to officialsports.com, use the code refsneedlove2 for 10% off there. If you're looking for comms, oh my gosh, go to spinso.com, check out their new ref comms. They're outrageous, amazing. Again, use code refsneedlove2 for 10% off of those. I mean, there's so many ways that you can save. If you're on my website at reflove26, all caps, R E F L O V E 26 for 10% off on the website. Please, please check it out. And very lastly, if you're an assigner, please, refersports, reach out to them and tell them I sent you. You will not be disappointed. Their platform is like literally leap years beyond everything else out there. You're doing a disservice to your referees if you're not using Refer Sports as an assigning platform because it is best in class. All right, guys, enough from me. I love you. I wish you well. Um, I am gonna be out of town the week before a Father's Day, so don't wait to place orders then. Please get them placed this weekend or next so that I can get you your products or products for whoever you're giving them to by Father's Day. Love you, and I'll talk to you soon.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

So we've

Part Two With For Ref’s Sake

SPEAKER_02 4:27

come into two weeks ago that he would be back. We're holding him metaphorically and digital. Um I think the uh Wi-Fi's working better now. David, welcome back to our show. Last time we spoke, we spoke about the test of metaphors in America. And the um the the opportunity to put this, but I wanted to talk to you about your I guess you're not for the game, your uh timeline, your um, uh your the effort that you put into helping Ves across the world and how it's grown into uh a global weapon phenomenon. Um last time we spoke, you told us you turned 500 games of your of your time. Fifteen hundred games per second. Why did you then go into this social media? Is it a business? Would you say it is a business now? Is it becoming that way? What do you think? Come on, let's talk. Tell us how you got into it.

SPEAKER_03 5:30

It became

The Viral TikTok That Started It

SPEAKER_03 5:31

a business. It started as a complete joke. You know, I mean, that's that's a straight honest truth. The first video I ever posted was my wife needed a a costume for a movie she was an extrud in. She needed some some costume and it needed to be non-branded. And I was like, Oh, you can wear my ref uniform. And she was in our bathroom and she and she had my flags, and I was like, Oh, show me offside, you know, show, show me throwing, you know, show all the whatever it was. And she just started doing like the flag moves. I thought it was funny. I I started videoing her, and my daughter and son at that time had been onto TikTok, and I just thought it was a funny video. And so I don't know, whatever. I took it, it was my first post ever onto TikTok. I post it. We wake up the next morning and it's got like 50,000 views, and then like three days later, it's got like 500,000 views and like went viral. And I was like, oh, this is fun. I mean, my day job at that time was I was a marketer. So I had like done like creative branding and marketing for like big global, like billion-dollar companies. But I in at that moment in my life, right? Just like right in the teeth of COVID, um, I was really struggling. I was really, really struggling um creatively, like in the company culture I was in. I was, you know, it was tough times, right? Like you remember those COVID days. I mean, there was layoffs constantly, and I had a team of 17. I went down to a team of five. I wasn't getting funding and investment. So I post this video, and all of a sudden, it like booms, and I'm like, oh, this is really cool. I'm gonna do some other funny videos. And so I literally just started doing like everything I would want to say back to a coach or a player on the pitch. I started doing like these funny like videos, like like acting this stuff out, and my family was involved, my kids would be in the video, my wife would be in the video, and it was like fun. And then

From Comedy Skits To Real Support

SPEAKER_03 7:24

about like two, three weeks in, I get a comment from a kid, a young teenager, who was like, Hey, I was just racially abused, I don't know what to do. So I told you a couple of weeks ago about how little support there is for referees in America, right? Like you don't, you don't have like a county group you get together with every month and watch videos. You just come to the field and you go home. You come to the field and you go home. And it's a very isolating experience. And when you have a traumatic experience, whether you've experienced dissent, you've been threatened with assault, you've been assaulted, there's no one for you. So I posted a video replying to this one kid, and then, you know, then that next video, someone's like, hey, you know, I just had this happen to me. I don't know what to do. What do I what I do? And so very quickly, what began as a joke started to become this community, where now I've got referees who could ask me questions because I had had about five or six years of experience at that point, and I could talk about laws of the game and I could, you know, encourage other people to be refs. Well, then I would start getting coaches and players starting to send me videos and be like, hey, what do you think about this? Because, you know, normally we tell people, don't talk to the ref, don't talk to the ref. Like, don't say anything, you know, because no one can be like human and nice anymore. And so I started to become a resource for players and coaches. And then parents who are bringing their kids, they wanted to know. And so all of a sudden, like what started as totally a joke, like straight up, this is going to be humorous. Very quickly, I started to find that there was this massive gap. You know, there was a communication gap in this whole history of officials never talking to the public, never having a public profile, not being someone you could have a conversation with, it just wasn't, it's not realistic anymore. It just doesn't work. I think people need to know that we're human. I think people need to know that the laws of the game are very subjective and open to opinion and interpretation. And they need to see these things and have this kind of conversation. That is better for everyone. And so I just saw it was kind of an open gap, you know, almost five years ago when I started, and I just kind of fell into it and it became a creative outlet. And I would just do a new video every day. I'd respond to every single question, and now it has boomed to 325,000 plus followers around the world. My podcast was downloaded in 105 countries last year. It's it's a retail business. It's I do consulting gigs, I do speaking gigs. I've um yeah, it's it's it's turned into something that's just beyond my wildest imagination.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

That's where we're going wrong with our algorithm somewhere. Somewhere. We're not, you know, we're we're posting stuff out here. Where are we going wrong? Is it because it's uh I don't know. You know, we can't we can't keep everybody happy. We we we smoke as well. I mean we love we love getting involved with with people like yourself. We're very lucky that you've come onto our podcast, and I mean that. Um and we look we love Mike from the referee circle. I'm sure you've uh you've spoken to him as well. What a great guy he is. Um obviously we had David Asweek who um a few weeks ago who was um spoke to his story. And uh at the moment, like refereeing is kind of like I'm not using the term big business, but the profile of it is so high. I mean I'm sure if when Luke and I record there's always a million uh incidents in Premier League that have happened over the weekend. Um do you find like most of your followers uh from America uh have you got kind of like a big uh uh band of people across the world now? Because like as you said five years ago, you what you were producing it was unique. What was your thoughts around that?

SPEAKER_03 11:07

Yeah,

Teaching Mindset And No Clickbait

SPEAKER_03 11:08

it's very international. I mean, as you can imagine, it's the global game, right? And so I'm also very open and approachable. So uh, you know, I've got a contact me button on which is you know on Facebook, you can do that. I have my WhatsApp on there. I'll get people who reach out to me from Zambia, you know, from Ghana, from Nepal, uh, and I respond to every single one. I mean, that that's something that's been a really big thing for me, is I I try and make sure everyone feels appreciated and validated. You know, one thing that is really big for me and my in my approach to things is I try and take a teacher's heart and educator's mindset. All right, there's always gonna be love in my heart. Even if I disagree with another referee's decision, I'm not gonna say, oh, that person effed up or they made a horrible call. I'd be like, let's look at this together. You know, oh, let's look at where they were on the pitch. You know, I wonder if maybe they saw X, Y, and Z, and maybe that's why they made this decision. Here, let's take a look at the laws of the game. You know, what are the considerations? You know, if we were, if we had the benefit of video review seeing what we have now, would we come up with a different decision? And, you know, I try and like always approach things with a very, you know, open mind and educators' heart. And that's what I want spectators to do. That's what I want coaches to do. That's what I want players to do, and that's what I want referees to do, to always be learning, to be open to the possibility that referees might make mistakes. Or maybe, you know, most people just don't understand, you know, what considerations that these referees are using to make a determination between denial of obvious goal scoring opportunity or stopping a promising attack or you know, serious foul play versus, you know, a reckless challenge or whatever it might be. It's always just about trying to educate and you know, make sure that everyone feels part of the community. That's that's the that's the big thing I focus on. So I try and I try my best to stay away from clickbait type things. Um, you know, every now and then I just get so fired up about something, I was like, okay, I have to post it. I have to post it. I've honestly I've I try so hard not to post anything Barcelona or Real Madrid anymore, even though it gets by far the most views and the most clicks, just because I'm so freaking over. Like every single time Real Madrid loses, or every single time Barcelona loses, it's gotta be the referee's fault, right? It's gotta be the referee's fault. The referee made an error. It's just like, dude, you took 25 shots on goal. Come on, like you only got like six on target. You know, it's like, okay, come on. You you guys could have done a little bit better. I try to stay away from clickbait, and I try and focus on things that are borderline decisions and that I think might be educational. And that's just where I focus. That's where I give my time.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

Sounds like watching Middlesbrough. I mean, I don't know if Middlesbrough have ever been in the same sentence as Real Madrid, although we did sign a player from them once, I think. Um, and we've had lots of shots, but I still blame, I still blame Jared Gillett last week for that point.

SPEAKER_03 14:18

Oh, Jared's a great referee, dude. Yeah, I let me tell you, if in my top five referees, Jared Gillett is definitely up there, man.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

And that was the end of the podcast after 10 minutes this week.

SPEAKER_03 14:32

I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan. Hey, listen, everyone makes mistakes. Now, I didn't see the the the Middlesbrough match last week, and maybe he made a decision that you don't agree with. It was he's pretty fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

It wasn't a mistake. I'm having a hot hot fluffy of what you've just said. Um totally put me off my next

Posting Pace And One Man Workflow

SPEAKER_02 14:52

thing. So um the question I've got next is how? Because Luke and I, and luckily we've got Rob who's listening in and uh and our social media now. How do you keep up uh with everything? I mean, uh how do you post content on on such a regular basis and really increase that engagement? I love the fact you answered recently uh you know, in a few minutes of uh wanting, you know, to support Beth V. How would you keep up with it? Are you a one-man band?

SPEAKER_03 15:24

I am almost completely a one-man band. Uh I, you know, everything, every post that I do right now is completely me. It's, you know, people send me, I get 30, 40 videos every single day sent to me around the world. Uh the majority of the ones that I receive is just like, you know, very, you know, very things that I'm like, dude, no one could tell from this video. Like we're like, was it offside? I'm like, dude, I don't know. Like, you're giving me something like horrible resolution from horrendous angle. I have no idea. You know, it's like, was this about? I'm like, maybe. Um, but every now and then I get stuff where I'm like, oh, that's an interesting one. Yeah, okay. I I can I can post that. But in terms of like my post, it's all me. Um, you know, the the retail business, which has been really cool. I mean, I created like these very unique, you know, scorecards. Um, you know, I have a my red and yellow cards have a pregame checklist on them. Um, I created these amazing like grip socks specifically for referees that took me like two years to engineer. So I created a retail business and that's been booming, like absolutely booming. It's gonna, it doubled year over your last year, it's gonna double you over your this year, and it's just me and my wife. It's it, you know, out of our home office. Uh the podcast again, it's me. And um that's actually the only area where I do have help right now is the long form podcast editing for YouTube. It's a different skill set than doing short form stuff on my phone uh for social media. That stuff is just is just me, just figuring it out. Um, I don't know. I mean, it's I'm I have to tell you, it's like I I work like probably 80 to 90 hours a week right now, but I'm having so much fun. It doesn't feel like work. Uh I'm refing a ton too, and I love refereeing. So I have a great outlet, like I have a great hobby. I have an extremely supportive family and friend network around me. Um, you know, I don't know. I mean, life is good. I'm getting to do what I love and I'm getting to do it for work. So it's like, I mean, I think a lot of people would love to have that situation. Um, you know, before we hopped on the pod, I mean, I'll tell you, when I started this podcast or the whole channel four and a half years ago, almost five years ago, our goal, my son and I, I was like, man, if we can get World Cup tickets in 2024, that would be ultimate. And this World Cup, I am being paid full flight hotel per diem to go to six matches. Um, you know, I've got yeah, just wonderful opportunity ahead, you know, through this World Cup. It's a lot of fun. So, no, I'm, you know, finding time, it it's it's difficult right now. Uh I'll just be very honest. I am looking for help in a couple particular areas. I just haven't found the right partner yet because it's so personal to me. Um, but man, I tell you, I think a lot of people would love to be uh in the position I am. So I don't, I don't lament it. You know, I'm not sad about it. I just you know I'm trying as hard as I can to keep up.

Building The USSF Ref Abuse Content

SPEAKER_00 18:20

And uh alongside all of that, am I right in thinking that you had a part to play in developing the USSF referee abuse policy or support, I can't remember the exact wording, but the the policy behind all of that as well?

SPEAKER_03 18:34

Yeah, absolutely. It was it was great. Yeah, we so I I interviewed for the job Carrie has, the previous referees. And by the way, Carrie Sites is like like literally a hundred times more qualified than I am, and I'm so glad she got the job. I she's phenomenal. I cannot say enough amazing things about Carrie. Okay, so she refereed at four World Cups, at four uh Olympics. Like she is she worked for FIFA before she took the job here in the US. She is phenomenal, phenomenal, unbelievable, perfect person for the job. But, you know, my thing is grassroots. Like again, I'm focused on that other 99%. And so I stayed close to her. And then so she got the job, I think, in like March of 2024, and then you know, we emailed a couple of times, and then we got together in October of 2024, and we sat down for lunch, and she's like, hey, you know, I've got something that I'd love to do. I need help. And previously we had a referee abuse policy in the United States, but it was like a paper, you know, like you know, paper PDF, text document, and that no one had ever read and had no, no one understood it or anything like that. And so, yeah, she hired me and I, my creative partner, a guy I do a lot of creative partner uh work with, and we developed like all of the animations and all the videos and all the the landing page and and the PowerPoints and the email campaign, and every single if you've seen those videos and they are phenomenal, these really cool animations going through all the different levels of referee abuse from you know the verbal to physical, every single action that you see the referees in those videos, like where someone like hitting someone or throwing someone or being scared, that is me in my basement acting that out, and then the animators like doing that scene. So I got to work on the scripts, I got to put together all of the videos. Um, it was fantastic. And we just re-released actually a new update to those, specifically. So, again, we we you know created all of the tools to communicate the policy, which was viewed millions upon millions of times, you know, not only here in the US, but all around the world. But the next thing that we did is we created a whole new set of animations teaching referees how to differentiate between atmosphere at a match, you know, emotional outbursts, and then dissent, and then what we call the acronym we use here is called off at a bus, which is uh offensive and insulting language, you know, some would say um abusive language, if you will, in the laws of the game. Um, but how to teach them how to recognize that and then how to take action. What words can you use? You know, what what body language can you use? How to show the card, how much distance do you need to show the card? You know, all of those types of things so that we can not only teach people, again, hey, you know, be safe out there. If you hear these things, recognize that's a send-off offense, or that's you know, worthy of a card, a caution, and then how to take action on that. So it's been great. I mean, it's it's wonderful, it's like a blast. I mean, US soccer is literally headquarters five miles from my house now with a brand new national training center, is five miles from my house. Um, and you know, I have a great relationship with the people over at US Soccer, and I hope I get to work on more stuff for them. But again, it's like, you know, I'm I I've I've not been A professional ref. I've not, I'm never going to ref in a World Cup. You know, I'm in my 50s, right? But what I do get, and what I live every single week, is the life of a grassroots referee, is a Sunday League referee, is being on your own and showing up to the pitch and being in those situations, you know, that are challenging, that are tough, whether it's with a spectator, with a coach or a manager and a player. And I have been, you know, threatened with assault. And I had had, you know, been like locked in a locker room waiting for a police escort to my car. Like I've been there, man. I've seen friends get assaulted. Like I've I've lived that. And so that's the stuff I'm focused on and how I can add value to my country.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

You're a very passionate man. You're a very passionate man about that, which it which I mean it comes across very, very clearly in the podcast.

Football Vs Soccer And World Cup Hype

SPEAKER_02 22:50

So in terms of like football or soccer, I mean, would you call it football or soccer? I mean, I don't want to insult you.

SPEAKER_03 22:57

Listen, I it's interchangeable. You know, here in this country, yes, you know, our the the number one sport in our country, the NFL, is known as football. Um, but certainly uh I'm a student of the global game. I would also uh refer to it as football.

SPEAKER_02 23:11

So is the World Cup, which is obviously taking place mostly in America, amongst other countries, um, is that a big thing? Uh are people excited for it? Um I know we've got our own Stuart Burt going across, and Stuart loves a uh a name check on his podcast. Um is it exciting? Are people excited about this, you know, this biggest tournament ever coming across the pond?

Visa Barriers Prices And Empty Seats

SPEAKER_03 23:34

I think we're very concerned. Um I'm just gonna be very uh honest and transparent and raw and real about that. Um if you are a soccer fan or a football fan in this country, you understand that this is a global game. Um and we would love for for this country, I mean, the the average football fan here in the United States would love to openly welcome people from all around the world with open arms. Um, unfortunately, the political climate in this country and the reality of what's going on in the world, you know, with the United States is deeply unpopular. Um, you know, even with our own country, you know, our president and uh Congress, I think, is at a 38 or 36 percent approval rating around the world, you know, countries around the world. I mean, I think there's 150,000 Dutch people who have signed a petition asking, you know, the Dutch to boycott the World Cup. Um, you know, just being able to come here. You talk about opening up to the world. I think right now, if you're trying to come from Africa, if you want to come from Tunisia to come watch a match in the United States, you've got to post a $15,000 bond and have your social media be vetted, you know, by our authorities in the US to even just get a visa to come here. I mean, I'm hearing really concerning news from uh major hotel operators and uh, you know, the cities who are the host cities, very concerned about low hotel numbers, um, you know, low hospitality booking right now for these events. Our own opening match, the United States versus Paraguay, is not sold out right now. That is extremely concerning. Extremely concerning. So I am, you know, I'd like to say I'm like enthusiastic and so excited to have this happen. But I fear because of what's been going on politically in our country and how we've been, and I say we collectively, like the United States, like, you know, I'm proud to be an American when I'm not proud of all the things America does. I think we collectively are not our best selves right now. And I think there's a lot of people around the world who are probably like, yeah, yeah, I don't think I'm gonna go through that. I'm not gonna spend that money in the US right now. Yeah, I'd love to see my team compete, but you know, I just I just can't swing it, or I don't want to swing it and come here to the US. So I'm afraid we're gonna see, you know, it's an expanded World Cup, right? From you know, 32 to uh or or 32 to 48 teams. I think you've got a lot of teams coming here with very small followings already. I fear we're gonna see a lot of big, cavernous 80,000-person stadiums with 15,000 people in attendance. Um, that's my fear. I mean, I'm sure as we get late in the World Cup and people get used to the outrageous heat and humidity that we have here over the summers in Florida and New Jersey. And um, you know, I I think we're gonna have some great games, hopefully. Um, but I'm very concerned that there's gonna be a relatively low average attendance and that the fan fests are not gonna be what you would normally expect at World Cups around the world.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

I mean, it's a very British thing, David, to be honest with you, because we we we don't we don't hear that in our media as such right now. I think that's fair to say, Luke. Um what we hear a lot about is um the the I suppose we call it exploitation of transport systems and the and the cost which are um you know and the cost of tickets has been a big thing. Um but we you know the thing that you were saying there about obviously, you know, there's a lot of tension around the world, but we haven't heard lots of news around those lower tendencies. You know what English people are like, they're like, yeah, what time's the England game on? Oh, eleven o'clock at night, we'll be in the pub. Let's get let's make sure the pub's open. That's what we're worried about. Um so Luke, I don't know, it's quite interesting, isn't it, to hear the the I suppose on the ground level of of the concerns of the American people, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think that the yeah, like you say, the outrage uh in this country at the minute is more around yeah, the the ticket the ticket prices and and actually I think the the barriers that most fans are seeing from our perspective is more around not not so much now, but you know, like I I was one that was in the camp of that and we had a group of friends that were thinking, do we go, do we not go? Um but it was more the logistics of it, but you know, the sheer scale of the competition and the fact that you know games are uh uh you know because we you know we had a group of friends that went to the Euros and you could jump on a train between the host cities and or the host uh stadiums, and and that was that was ideal, whereas it's it's a completely different setup, isn't it? And the whole scale of the organization is is just a massive barrier as well. And and that's kind of the the the conversation this side of the pond. Uh it's it's yeah, there's there's certainly been no concern raised about stadiums potentially not being full and and those those types of things. It's more how much the tickets are costing and and the logistics behind all of that.

Why Tickets May Drop And Why Come

SPEAKER_03 28:50

Well, here's the good news. Okay, if you want to look, I'm always a glass half full kind of guy. Okay. So I think housing costs are gonna come down and start becoming much more reasonable uh because of the low attendance numbers that are that are coming. Uh, I think ticket costs are gonna crater. I think you're gonna have a lot of last minute tickets available. Uh so if you are thinking of coming and you know, you know, just hey, if we get to the fan fest great, we're gonna be here and be part of the magic. But if we get a ticket, that's great. I actually think those people are gonna find a a lot of tickets available at a much more reasonable cost and find housing to be much more reasonable as well. Um so I I would encourage people if this, you know, again, Americans, you know, is not the American government, right? And and if you're not, and being sincere, like again, you know, I'm again, I'm very proud to be American. And you're not gonna find a more you know welcoming and nice person. And all of my the the people that I know and and the people that I see and I travel across this country every single week, are 99% of them are wonderful, kind, loving people. If you come to this country, I promise you, you will have a good experience and you will be met with lovely, um, gracious, happy you know, people that you are here. Uh so don't confuse what you see happening in the American government with the American people. It's a different thing. It's a totally different thing. Additionally, because of the challenges of getting to the United States right now and um you know the cost of flights and housing and those tickets, which has been outrageously you know priced to outrageous levels. I think there's going to be a lot of um scalpers, you know, the uh who bought up large swaths of tickets who are going to be trying to unload those tickets at you know very much more reasonable prices as we get closer. So please come. Um you know, come on down. I mean, honestly, we do have some beautiful uh stadiums to go see. I mean, here in Atlanta, the Mercedes Benz is is but world class. I mean, insane. And it's right in downtown. It's a wonderful experience. I mean, we do have some stadiums that are that are easy to get to, that are on mass transit, that would be beautiful places to come vacation during the summertime. So please, you know, come on down, have fun, bring your sunscreen. You're gonna need it. It's gonna be hot, it's gonna be sunny, it's gonna be humid.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Um I can't do it, David. I'm out.

SPEAKER_03 31:17

This is the man who I just want everyone to know, please come. We'd love to have you here. Um, you know, it should be a good time, but I definitely I am concerned at this time. That would be my my honest truth.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

Are you as concerned as Luca would be in February in England when the maximum temperature is about eight degrees and you've got a suntan at the end of a referee's course?

SPEAKER_03 31:42

I I I don't I don't know, man. I tell you eight degrees, I'll tell you that's the thing about England. I grew up in in New York and I went to university up on Lake Ontario. So I've I have lived you know wet and cold for a good portion of my life.

England Travels Accents And Culture

SPEAKER_03 31:55

I have no desire to go back to that. Have you um have you ever been to England?

SPEAKER_02 31:59

Have you ever been to England?

SPEAKER_03 32:00

Yeah. I have to live in the Netherlands. So I traveled and I and I was responsible for Europe, Middle East, Africa. So I would, I I when I when my family and I we moved to the Netherlands, I think we landed on a Tuesday and I was in um Paris on Thursday, and then the next Tuesday I was in London. So I've been to uh England, gosh, uh I don't know, 15 times, 20 times uh in in my life. And I we've done vacation over there too. So yeah, no, I'm very familiar and I've I've traveled around. I've been I've had the extremes of going to uh Old Trafford and then all the way to uh Craven Cottage. So I have definitely had quite good English football experiences.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

What's your favorite part of England that you've been to? Apart from London, come on.

SPEAKER_03 32:46

Yeah, no, no, no. I let's let's be honest. I tell you, I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you this is such a like a random, um like a really small reference, but uh when I when I worked over there, we had a a manufacturing facility in a a place called Shelf, uh, which is in Yorkshire. And I used to stay at this wonderful little like pub and inn called the Shibden Inn. And man, it was just so idyllic. You know, it was like you know, like 500 years old with a little creek running next to it, and you could just walk through the countryside, and it was just the most peaceful, wonderful experience. I mean, you know, I've spent my time in Manchester. Um, you know, I've spent uh some time over in like Birmingham, I've even been down on the south coast as well in Brighton. Um, I love London. So I've been, you know, I've had a good experience. I've been up to uh Teaside.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Like I have no David, that's not Teaside. Newcastle is like that's not the out of each is. We don't go to Teaside, Teaside's like industrial country.

SPEAKER_03 33:51

I I have done like a proper English tour. I've been to Leeds, like I have been all over England, man. I I really have. So I and again, lovely country, lovely people. Um, unfortunately, like my sense of humor is you know, I'm I would just say this again, I'm a little too enthusiastic, you know, for England. You know, I mean you listen, throughout my life, yeah, like I'm an enthusiastic person in general. I give a lot of energy, you know, a lot of love, a lot of positivity, all that kind of stuff. England, I was, you know, I'm a little bit too much. You know, they don't know, like, okay, is that real? Is that sincere? Like, yeah, no, this is really me. So I had to learn how to just like tone it back a little, like just pull it back.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

Right. There's a problem. David, you I'm gonna just educate you here for a second. So as you were talking about Yorkshire, so northern people like myself, very friendly, you know, they're very welcoming, very friendly. Go down south, not so friendly. Um, a bit questioning of people who talk. Um if you went on a tube in London, for example. I've been on the tube many times, yes. Don't talk to anybody because they're still you're going to mug them, basically.

SPEAKER_03 35:01

Again, I grew up in New York City. So I grew up in New York City. I lived there till I was 22. So I have I have that within me. You know, I understand big city life, and I understand, you know, don't look at anyone. If you talk to someone, they're thinking you're setting them up to mug them or rob them or something. I get that. Like I've lived that part of my life, but I've also lived the last almost 25 years, 27 years in Georgia in the in the southeast United States, where everyone is like, hey, hey, you know, like, how you doing? You know, bless your heart. Like everyone's so sweet and so nice. So I I I can I can I can do that dance. Yeah, I understand both of those worlds, and I understand why both of them are like that. So, yes, no, I I appreciate it. What's your

Favorite Sayings And Pitch Language

SPEAKER_03 35:45

favorite English accent? Oh that is tough. That is really, really, really tough. I yeah, I I'm not gonna weigh in this. I don't I I don't try and like uh elicit like uh hate mail. So I'm just I'm just gonna I'm just gonna pass on this question. I mean, there because there are some accents I'm like, yeah, I I I'm not a fan of that one because I just want to report another thing. But I'm I'm just not gonna weigh in because I guarantee hate mail would be income.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

Right. I mean, you know you've reached and um you're successful when you get hate mail. We're just getting our first um bits of hate mail coming through um social media. But anyway, final totally irrelevant question I want to ask you about England is the English Shakespearean. We were we were at Stratford in Stratford a few weeks ago. Do you have any favorite English sayings? I know I called you mate a lot when I was first contacting you. Like we just call every we just call everyone mate. We don't even know who they are. Like, mate, how are we doing?

SPEAKER_03 36:42

What's your favorite English sayings? Come on. I I still to this day, like I I think I understand, I I'm pretty sure I know what it means, but I just don't know the origin of the phrase taking a piss. What if we take it a piss? Like, what are you talking about? Like, that is the most ridiculous saying. Like, seriously, like what do you mean I'm taking a piss? Like that makes no sense to me. Like, if someone were to say that to me on the pitch, like if we take it a piss, I'm like, dude, what? Like, what? Like, shut up. Like, what are you talking about, man? Like, that one is just so fascinating to me. It makes no sense. There's no, there's no alliteration that I can find where that would make like I know what it means. Like, are you kidding? Are you joking or something like that? Like, like, I get that, but how that gets from taking a piss makes no sense to me.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

It's a fair point. I mean, it is a fair point. I mean, we have some great English sayings. Like, um, have you ever heard of being thrown under the bus? You heard that one? Of course. Yeah, uh, what's the other good English sayings? Um I mean, they're all they're all shakes being. We have to keep it clean on this podcast. It's it's it's interesting. There is some idioms that we come out with um that you know They're just English things that we say, which are really quite odd. The one that you just said is, you know, a fine example. And and I think Joe Gillett was absolutely doing that a few weeks ago.

SPEAKER_03 38:11

I did a skit, like I did, you know, because I I had like these things I was doing where I would do like uh, you know, the top you know, four things you know, spectators would say or something like that. I forget what I called it, but I did one, like I did the the top five things that people say to English referees or something like that. And I mean, they I because I I and like I elicited it, like I got feedback from like uh friends of the channel, like send me these. And so I know there are specific ones. It's been a couple years, I'll have to send that one to you. It's it's good humor, but man, it's yeah, no, I I just again I'm I'm very sensitive to you know try and be a student of the world, try and be respectful of every culture and every language and every tradition. And people, you know, like to say, oh, you would never handle it in you know, English Sunday League. It's like, you know, listen, dude, there are grown ass babies who play football over here too, that I have to deal with. They just use different words, okay? They don't say taking a piss, but they're like, hey, are you effing kidding me? That's what they might say. You know, I mean, trust me, I I I deal with that kind of stuff too. It's a it's a global game, and there are you know people who behave badly in every part of the world.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Right. Luke, we need to move on from my stupid questions, really, because it's it's not my cup of tea, really, that um th those kind of things. And um let's talk about referees. Well

The Four Traits Of Great Referees

SPEAKER_02 39:36

we I was talking to um a uh a club chairman today, and and we a very nice person, very supportive of referees. And I just asked him a simple question, really. I'd say, what uh what do you feel makes a good referee? So I'm gonna put uh pat the question on to you. In your experience, in your role within refereeing and with your social media presence, what do you think would make or what does make a good referee?

SPEAKER_03 40:04

Yeah, I for me that I have four tenets that I look for in a great referee. Um number one, integrity. Right? You're looking for people who, you know, their word is is oak. You know, like they are they are trustworthy, they are stand-up people, um, they've got integrity. Uh number two, they've got courage. They've got courage to to use that integrity, right? So they're they're courageous people, they're they're comfortable standing in front of others, communicating with others, and you know, making a a decision. That's important. Uh the third thing I would say is uh, you know, you've got to have some degree of a of a willingness to learn, you know, of being able to reflect and being able to study the laws of the game, right? You have to be open to new information, you have to seek new information. And then you really have to love the game. Like you have got to love this game at a deep, deep, deep level. If you are not as passionate about the game as the players and the managers and the spectators are as the game, they will smell it. They can sense it on you, and you will struggle. There is nothing worse than a referee who doesn't care or doesn't put in effort, you know, doesn't seem to match the intensity level, you know, in terms of the work rate of what everyone else is doing out there on the pitch. Okay, that is a serious, serious problem. So those are kind of the four things that kind of make up a great referee to me. And because and I don't want to say fitness, right? Because fitness, you know, there's a game for everyone. You know, if it's a U8 or U10 recreational match, man, you don't need to be that fit. You know, you can walk a little bit up and down the pitch and you'll be perfectly fine. You know, if you're doing a, you know, a you know, a Sunday League adult amateur, really, really, you know, semi-pro, yeah, you gotta be really fit. But if you don't have those other four things, again, integrity, courage, a willingness to learn and study the game, be a student of the game, and a love for the game, you're gonna really struggle as a referee.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

It goes back a bit full circle, VD, what you were saying now. I was listening to about your you know you're talking about passion for the game. And I think sometimes that's what's missing with some referees, because you can as we were talking about earlier, or it might be in the previous podcast, where we were talking about uh the majority of our match officials who are training uh are young referees. And sometimes that doesn't transfer I and I don't know if that's uh to a lack of knowledge or lack of application to their uh mindset when refereeing. So if you don't care enough, they're just gonna stand there and uh and we talk a lot about uh they're being paid a you know a a relatively good fee um in terms of an hour's work over here for for a 14-year-old would be £25 to £30. Um there's no there's not many jobs um where you're getting paid that much money. So yeah, it I think that point you've made there is really, really um interesting.

SPEAKER_03 43:12

Brother, they don't know how good they have it. Like honestly, they haven't loved and lost yet. They they they they still get to go run around with their friends and go play football on the pitch whenever they want at nights on weekends, they get to play on a team and they're getting a referee too. You know, they've got so many wonderful things happening for them and in many of their lives. You know, they don't appreciate what they got. I will tell you, every single time I walk from the sideline to the center of that pitch with my two ARs by my side, I stop and I turn to them as we're saying, you know, all right, you know, 45s, whatever, 40s, and we're about to kick off. And I just tell them, I am so grateful to be here with you today. I so appreciate this moment that we have this opportunity to be here together. You know, let's have a great game. I say it every single time. And I get emotional talking about it because I know I'm In my 50s. Like I know that I have a limited amount of time to do this, like you know, in my life to be able to do this at these higher competitive levels. And I'm so freaking grateful. Dude, at 14, you're not grateful for shit for the most of the time you're a teenager. I mean, some people are, some people have that perspective, but the overwhelming, like, hey, you know, like, ah, if I earn this money, great. If I don't earn this money, no big deal. Like, they don't appreciate how special it is that they're getting to do what they're getting to do at that time. You know, it's just whatever. It's a job. If I don't do this job, maybe I'll do another job. Um, I don't think they appreciate how wonderful it is to have that opportunity to be able to run around, to have fun, to be in the middle of the action, you know, to be able to participate in the game, like we get to participate and to get paid for that too, is so freaking cool. But they don't have enough perspective to appreciate it yet.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

I I also I also think that perspective is is scalable up in our system in particular to those referees that are operating kind of in the semi-professional game, level fours, level threes, as we would call them, because they get so hung up on kind of the desire to get promoted and and progress through the levels that actually they they forget they forget to appreciate the games that they're actually refereeing because they're just desperate to get to that next level. And and and that's that that same appreciation is you know, not having that appreciation and having that mindset of just being desperate to get to the next level can be equally as dangerous in those environments. And I think it's a really good point that everybody can learn from is actually, you know, when you're when you're walking, when you're leading those teams out of the tunnel, when you're doing that handshake, and you know, you you're taking in that those final moments before you blow the first whistle. That's that that's the type of thing that you should be appreciating. You should be happy to be there, you should be grateful that you've got to the level that you're at, and let's just deliver a really safe and and good performance on that game before we start worrying about potentially what what level we're going to be refereeing next season or what game we've got next week, et cetera, et cetera.

Effort On Every Match At Any Level

SPEAKER_00 46:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:03

And I'll tell you, uh, last weekend, so we were doing our State Cup finals in in California, and uh I saw a referee as a great referee. I mean, this guy's a great ref. Like I had seen him earlier in the day on another match, he looked fantastic. And then I caught him on a late match in the afternoon, and it's hot. You know, it's 85 degrees on turf. So again, we're talking like 28, 29 Celsius on turf. So it feels like 100. Um, it's hot out there, no doubt, but it was a less challenging match. And I caught him like standing still and just like kind of turning and on the spot, like watching the play happen, as opposed to opening his body up, you know, using good movement, scanning the field, anticipating where the ball is going to be next. He got lazy, you know. Every single match, no matter what level it is, we can be working on the fundamentals that we need to get to that next level. I mean, and also I would say, too, you know, give the give some freaking respect to the game that you're on. I mean, I had a couple of games this year. I totally did not, you know, expect this, but I wound up getting assigned three U-10 matches. I have not worked U10 in literally like seven or eight years. U10. Okay. And three, I think they were girls, three U10 girls, these cute, wonderful girls. They were so adorable. I had so much fun, but I gave them every bit of energy and effort that I could. Now, the energy and effort on that game is different from a semi-professional match, right? The energy and effort on that semi-professional match is like, you know, running, you know, 50 yards to be there on a, you know, a key, you know, reckless challenge in the corner and making sure I'm there and breaking it up before people come in and start fighting. The energy and effort on a U10 match is education, right? It's keeping it positive, it's being supportive, it's it's teaching them the laws of the game, it's you know, helping them understand what is fair and what is foul and things of that nature, you know, but but that is, you know, showing respect to the game, right? And so I'm giving my all every single time, no matter where I am. And even if it's a less competitive match, okay, and we're dealing with maybe 16-year-olds or something nature, and maybe the level of play is not highly technical, you can still be working on your fundamentals. Scan where should you be right now? Where's play going next? You know, how can you shape your body to make sure that you can see the play and see your assistant referee? You know, are your mechanics crisp? You know, are the words you're using the right words? Every single match, you can get a little bit better. And that's what I'm looking for out of the referees that are going to get to the next level.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

Luke, we can clip those bits out um and then use them at our next CPD events and we don't have to do any work because I think I'm not sure that's the right attitude after that statement, Wayne to be saying. But seriously, I think sometimes we we we forget that manter of sometimes people will be disappointed with the appointments that they get. Sometimes people will kind of question why am I doing this game? But you know, it as you've just said, it's lucky, not lucky at it. Um just being given an opportunity, and you know, we were talking a bit earlier to David last week. He was, you know, he's going through a strong, strong protest of his desire, and I know we've got a lot of good feedback on this, but his desire to get back to where he was is phenomenal. Your message there is uh outrageous in terms of have we forgot, or do we forget sometimes uh how lucky or how much we want to be in that position. Um I mean it w talking about we've just I've just come away from um uh you know a couple of days of cup finals. I didn't I wasn't refereeing them a kind of administrator a lot of it. Um and you know the the the passion uh of the players needs to be matched by the passion of the officials. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 50:12

And now how we show it, how we show that passion is very different, right? Right? So like there's some players out there who are gonna show that passion and they might show it in negative ways and they might be over the top, and they're trying to fire up their team. Now we need to stay composed and have this outward calm on us, right? Because we are, you know, we are that island in a storm, right? We we are, you know, that that anchor point that you can come back to and hey, okay, the ref ref's staying cool here, okay. You know, we can cool down. He's gotta get everyone back under control. But again, that that energy and effort and passion and you know, commitment, right? And that willingness to to make that call, to make that strong you know, decision, you know, you gotta have it. You've gotta have that love for the game. And I tell you, that energy and effort and commitment and passion, it will enable you to sell that difficult call. It will enable you to get that buy-in from the team captain and from the manager.

Handling Disappointment And Staying Growth-Minded

SPEAKER_03 51:16

You know, it'll help you manage through difficult situations in the match. If you come off as flippant and you are just like disassociated and you're just showing up, and again, it looks like you're just showing up for a paycheck, okay, and people can smell that on you. You are gonna have a very difficult day on the pitch. If you are in it and you show a love for the game and an appreciation for the game, and and again, you know, just love being out there, you know, you're gonna find a lot of love coming back to you too. I'm a big believer, you know, you get back what you give.

SPEAKER_00 51:52

And I think I think this is such a relevant conversation for this time of year as well, uh, particularly cup final season and obviously referees with one eye on promotion potentially. And whilst it's a great time of year for those referees that are appointed to those fixtures and and have those promotions confirmed or or whatever, equally we we sometimes we forget the ones that are dealing with the disappointment of perhaps not receiving the appointment that that they thought they deserved, or not receiving the news of the promotion that they thought they deserved. And but I guess it is still really relevant the point you're making, is it that doesn't make the work that you've done this season a waste of time. It doesn't it doesn't mean that you should appreciate the games that you've done this season any less just because you haven't necessarily maybe met the goal that you set at the start of the season or you know, things like that. It's it's actually still appreciate what you've done, still appreciate where you are and and and the the joy that you've got out of what you've done this season, I guess, despite the disappointment.

SPEAKER_03 52:52

Absolutely. You know, every every day is an opportunity to grow. You know, every day is an opportunity to get better. And again, whether it's on the pitch or off, you know, it's it's a journey that we're on. And as a referee, every game, I swear, there's not a game that I walk off of where I, you know, maybe like, oh, you know, maybe I can do this differently next time, or I've never seen that before. There's always opportunities for growth. And I tell you, like, even as a mentor now, right? Because now I'm in my 50s and I'm on the back side of you know the level of matches that I can do. I spend time sitting next to the best coaches that I can find. And I just sit there and I listen and I take notes and I ask questions and I want to see what they're looking for and how they explain things, because that makes me a better ref, but it makes me a better teacher too. You can always, you know, improve. You could always improve. And again, yeah, no, there's disappointment, you know, that you didn't you maybe get a promotion this time, but you know, figure out what you need to work on. You know, find a mentor, find a, you know, someone you can get on their crew who does a great job at that and watch them, you know, watch their videos, sit down with them and see what they're doing so that you can get to where you want to be. But it's yeah, I just appreciate where you are. Wishing you were someone else is wasting the person that you are. Wishing you were someone else is wasting the person that you are. Be appreciative for what you have and where you are, and be self-aware of what you need to work on and what you need to do to get there.

SPEAKER_02 54:21

David, um, we could again, we've talked a lot.

Final Wisdom And Goodbye

SPEAKER_02 54:25

Um, it is getting towards Luke's bedtime in England. Um it's past 10 o'clock. The watershed is uh approaching. I know you're a very busy man. I'm sure you've got lots of other things that you need to do as well. But I really hope that we hook up again next Easy and stay in touch. I know you are part of our Wii community on WhatsApp. Um so yeah, stay in touch and thank you very much for your time. And I will finish on this taking this. Thank you, brother. I appreciate it.