the Pavle Milić show
Pavle Milic has spent 40+ years in the hospitality business — co-founding FnB restaurant in Scottsdale, building Los Milics Vineyards across three Arizona tasting rooms, and writing about wine for Phoenix Magazine for the past decade. Now he's pulling up a chair with people from well outside his own world and seeing where the conversation goes.
If you have any questions or ideas for an upcoming show, and if you would like to be a guest on the show, email psst@pavlemilic.com
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the Pavle Milić show
AZ's Coffee Guru, ROC2's David Anderson.
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David Anderson is a name easily recognized by those of us in the hospitality world in the state of Arizona. He is also a bit of a polymath: talented welder, pilot, and photographer.
He owns Roastery of Cave Creek aka, ROC2, where he's been roasting an average of 10,000 lbs a week since 1997. His coffees are served in top restaurants in the valley like Pizzeria Bianco, Tratto, Matt's Big Breakfast, Tarbell's, and yes, at FnB as well.
In fact, before we opened FnB, Charleen and I were compiling a list of vendors. Char informed me that she already had a coffee supplier. I was taken aback; Char doesn't drink coffee and you know me being Colombian and a coffee drinker, that would land on me. Nope. No say in the matter whatsoever.
Well, I can honestly say that after 13 years of serving David's coffee and getting to know him and his team, I am glad I had no say in the matter. Forget that the coffee is some of the best in town, David is one of the nicest guys I know.
I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.
Hola mi gente and welcome to the Pavle Millick podcast, where we create a space to showcase people who follow their dreams and hunches, a space where we unpack a bit of their story, and what it's like to stand on the skinny branch of possibility. Today on the show we have David Anderson, a name easily recognized by those of us in the hospitality world in the state of Arizona. He's also a bit of a polymath, talented welder, pilot, and photographer. He owns roastery of Cape Creek, also known as Rock 2 up in Cape Creek, where he's been roasting an average of 10,000 pounds a week since 1997. His coffees are served in top restaurants like Peteria Bianco, Entrato, Matt's Big Breakfast, Tarbells, and yes, here at FB as well. In fact, before we opened up FMB, Charlene and I were compiling a list of vendors. Char informed me that uh she already had a coffee supplier, and I was kinda taken aback. Char doesn't drink coffee, and you know me, being Colombian and not a coffee drinker, I figured that would land on me. Nope. No say in the matter whatsoever. Well, I can honestly say that after 13 years of serving David's coffee and getting to know him and his team, I'm so glad I had no say in the matter. Forget that the coffee is some of the best in town. David happens to be one of the guys as nice I know. It is with a great deal of pleasure that I get to sit down with David today for the pod. Ladies and gentlemen, the man, the legend, David Anderson.
SPEAKER_02David, good morning. Good morning, Pavle. It is so nice to have you here, sir. I couldn't keep a straight face listening to what you just said, but uh it's a pleasure to be here with you as well.
SPEAKER_00All right, all right. Well, you know, it was all true. And in fact, I was thinking about while I was um recording the intro that over the years, David, a lot of people from Kansas have come to the restaurant. And it could very well be a stereotype, but I do speak from personal experience. All of them are like salt of the earth nice people, and and you're from there, so what's what's what's in the water in Kansas?
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm not quite sure, but uh Midwest values and people uh for the most part are just good, as you said, salt of the earth people, you know. Uh growing up there was uh a an experience. And uh I I came out here to Arizona, I guess, in about 97 and have really loved and enjoyed the the warmth, the community, the natural beauty, and uh I just really the Southwest has has had a really uh strong piece of my heart.
SPEAKER_00So well, we're we're very lucky to have you here. So now let me uh let me go back before Rock II was even a thing. If you don't mind, David. Let's talk about uh your time in Kansas. Uh obviously born there. What was what was growing up in Kansas like? What was your childhood like?
SPEAKER_02Uh oh gosh. Uh we sort of moved around like gypsies. I think I went to five different uh grade schools. And uh father was in the construction business, uh, had a utility construction business and uh did work. Uh office was there, he wasn't traveling, of course, but uh but we did uh work pipeline work all over the Midwest. Uh we put in rural water line that was essentially taking city water out to the farmers. And uh a project might have two, 250 miles of pipeline on it. But we worked in Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, Nebraska, South Dakota, and uh it was really rewarding work because we were taking water out to people that were either having to haul it or uh had some terrible well with uh with with bad water in it. And so the gratitude from the people when we were there, you know, uh building the the water system for them, they were just you know ecstatic that we were there and we'd go into the restaurants and you know we'd get a heaping plate of food and free dessert and uh it was it was rewarding. And uh finally got to the point where I was tired of traveling, being on the road, and had gone back to school and uh was fortunate to get a job with uh satellite communications company in Dallas and moved and uh spent a couple So I'm gonna stop you, David.
SPEAKER_00When you say we, did you straight out of high school when to go work for your dad? Were you working with that the whole time?
SPEAKER_02Uh I tried one semester of college and at the time it just wasn't for me.
SPEAKER_00And in that semester of college, if you can remember, what did you wanted to do when you, you know, ostensibly grew up?
SPEAKER_02Well, I had no clue. Probably drink coffee and eat barbecue. Okay, all right. Well, not much has changed since then.
SPEAKER_00Actually, I didn't start drinking coffee till I was about 30 when I went back to college. So, David, you went to college for one semester. What was it about that semester that did not gel with you?
SPEAKER_02Well, I was 17 years old when I'd moved out, and uh I guess uh scholastics weren't high on my list of priorities at the time.
SPEAKER_00Okay, all right.
SPEAKER_02And actually I did not make it through that first semester.
SPEAKER_00All right. So how do you how do you go from okay, um, this is obviously not for me. Um you you worked for that before college for the company for the construction?
SPEAKER_02I started when I was at age 13, uh working summers, probably to get me out of the house and give my mother some relief.
SPEAKER_00All right, all right. How did you wind up in a satellite company? That seems like an odd jump from I don't like college, and and now you're talking about satellites?
SPEAKER_02Um Yeah, telecommunications was always somewhat of an interest. And so uh I was just fortunate. I didn't know whether it was going to be, you know, with terrestrial phone line, uh, fiber, or, you know, the the satellite. That position just sort of came out of the from a friend who had worked at a company and uh I'd interviewed uh in Dallas and uh they extended an offer. And what was your time specifically?
SPEAKER_00Pardon? What was your job specifically?
SPEAKER_02Uh I was uh uh installation coordinator for what was called a uh VSAT network, essentially um providing connectivity via satellite uh for video, data, uh and uh communications versus terrestrial phone lines. Okay. And how long did you do that for, David? Well, they the uh within a couple years after we'd gone to I'd gone to work for them, they were having some uh financial issues. There was a big, you know, set of layoffs which I'd weathered, and things went on okay for another year or two, and then they had another big round, and I was fortunate that uh there were four regional managers covering the country, and I was in the central for Dallas, and fortunately I was the person they selected to go back to headquarters because they closed all the offices and I got uh transferred to Washington, D.C. And I hung on with them for a couple of years and sent out resumes, and then uh a satellite communications sector of Hughes Aircraft uh had hired me. I can remember, I think nine or ten people interviewed me, but uh I tricked them all and I worked for Hughes probably for about another eight, nine years.
SPEAKER_00When you were called back to DC and they had closed all the branches. Did anyone ever share with you why you were spared?
SPEAKER_02No, but I'll tell you, probably since age 13 when uh when I started working as a uh a labor shoveling hot asphalt, my father then told me, he goes, I don't want to hear any uh father-son stories. And so I went out with uh a fire that's stayed with me my entire life to uh work as hard as I possibly can and do do well. Right. I remember in high school, there was one time my father ruled with an iron fist, where standing in front of him, he was sitting in, quote, his chair that nobody else was allowed to sit in, telling me that I would not amount to a good God, you know what, D-A-M-N. And that what happened that wonderful, tender, loving comment. Uh and he did it with a kind of a guttural growl that uh I will never forget. And I thought to myself at that time, I will prove you wrong. And I've been fortunate enough. Uh and of course, growing up, then he was he's been was proud of me, of course, before he passed, but uh but I showed him. Were you ever able to ask him were you just pissed off that day? Nah, I just knew his his personality. I'm sure I'd done something to to piss him off, there's no doubt.
SPEAKER_00So you had just this innate motivation to excel in whatever the task may be.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and if you spoke to Allison, she would uh, you know, no matter what I do, whether it's whatever the project is, I will come up with the analytical way, step by step, the best way to accomplish what I'm setting out to do.
SPEAKER_00All right. So let's talk about pivoting. You go from communications and satellites, and then the next step, David, was an aircraft company. And is that where your love of flight came from?
SPEAKER_02No, it was the Hughes Network Systems was uh a subsidiary of Hughes Aircraft. Okay. Howard Hughes. And uh it was strictly, you know, telecommunications. So all right.
SPEAKER_00And what and your job there was also logistics?
SPEAKER_02Uh no. There were four again, there were four districts that uh Hughes had, you know, to cover the country. And the product line that we were installing, you know, video data networks, I mean, for all industries. Ford, GM, Maryland, financial, uh, retail. Walmart, I think, was the first big customer at about 1988, where every single one of their stores, you know, had a small Earth station on the roof, and that would transmit all their inventory data. Um, and it was a very popular uh product line to serve uh communications for corporations. And I guess it was about 1996 to seven, you know, I'd been in the business there. I was sort of tired of DC, the beltway, and wearing a suit and tie every day. And uh I've got a younger brother who had moved to Scottsdale back in the early 90s, and I'd been out to visit and liked it, and uh decided I'm moving to Arizona. And it was either going to Phoenix and get a real job or you know, start a business.
SPEAKER_00And uh so unpack that thought process for me, David. You're you're you're making a decision that you're gonna leave DC. You I'm assuming are about to leave a pretty good job. Yes, oh it was.
SPEAKER_02I uh our uh the facility we had had a an amazing exercise room, and I can recall a few times where my boss would come down, and me and a uh guy for the programs department would be down there playing ping pong. And uh that got to be the point where that was maybe a few hours a day. I can remember uh she came down and said, Are you guys gonna do any work today? And I said, just wait, wait. We just got to finish this game. But uh no, I had a great job. Um so what happened? Well, I've been doing that for you know probably 10, 11 years, and uh coming out to Arizona, the Phoenix, Cave Creek, uh, Flagstaff, the the natural beauty here. I've always been into the outdoors and love being outside. And uh whether it be backpacking on a motorcycle, whatever, uh, and so that's what inspired me to move and got here and had to figure out what I was gonna do when I grew up. And fortunately coffee's been a really good and probably my longest chapter.
SPEAKER_00David, remind me, before coffee though, you were in this crazy business of ours, the sort of food and wine world. Did the wine bar come before the coffee, or did the coffee become the wine bar?
SPEAKER_02No, the the coffee came first, and I can recall people I sold everything I had, my Jeep, motorcycles, whatever, to get the business open. And me and an old man pounded and painted, and he chain smoked Salem along some kind of long cigarettes, and which I absolutely detested and hated. But uh, we got the doors open, and I had enough mad scientists in me that I wanted to roast my own coffee. So I looked at the the roasting machines, and uh there was a smaller one and a larger one. I thought, well, I'm gonna be conservative and got the small one, and probably within two months I was kicked myself in the ass for not uh getting the larger machine.
SPEAKER_00Let me ask, David, coffee. I I just want to understand what why coffee. How did that come into your atmosphere? Like you go from I'm a communications guy and suddenly I love the outdoors and coffee.
SPEAKER_02Well, uh there was some logic. I didn't start drinking it until I was about 30, but uh but as I mentioned, it's the second largest commodity traded worldwide, second to petroleum. And over half of uh actually around 80 percent of uh Americans have a cup every day, and it's the most popular beverage on the planet. And so from it seemed like a a logical step. There was no coffee up in Cave Creek. So, and I had people saying, Are you crazy, Cave Creek? It's a kind of an old western mining town. You're opening up a coffee house.
SPEAKER_00I remember, David, when I moved here from New York in the late 80s, part of the you know, some of the destinations that you took out of guests to was up in Cape Creek. And I don't I think it was the Horny Toad. Horny Toad and the Satisfied Frog. Yes, those two places. That's right. Uh but that's all I remember from Cave Creek back in the late 80s.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, heroes would have been there too. They've, you know, I think they got started in the mid-30s.
SPEAKER_00So but uh who was educating you on roasting coffee when when you first decided to get into this business?
SPEAKER_02Uh there was a fella down in Tempe, and I cannot remember his name because I'm getting old and can't remember shit. But uh I'd spent a little bit of time with him. I bought a I went uh travel to Sandpoint, Idaho. Uh that's where Dietrich coffee roasters are located. Okay. And Dietrich Coffee was a big uh thing out on the West Coast. There was uh one guy in the retail line, and then Steve uh was the guy that was the kind of inventor that uh started building coffee roasters. And so I went up there and got some some training there, and I can tell you that there's uh a lot of similarities between roasting coffee and and cooking because a lot of experimentation and a lot of practice. I we I guess I can't remember I couldn't even begin to guess how many thousands of tons of coffee that I've roasted over the last you know 25, 26 years.
SPEAKER_00But um, how long was that sort of immersion into the world of roasting coffee? How long were you up there for?
SPEAKER_02Uh probably from '97, and I think we sold the business in 2007. We, you know, the wholesale business just sort of evolved because we actually had restaurateurs coming in and uh said, man, your coffee's amazing. Would you consider selling it? And so it just sort of evolved, and we uh we were in a building, 4,200 square foot building. We had half of it, 2400, and the other half was a feed and tax store. So our little building was one-stop shopping for coffee and uh lattes and fishing worms. So, because people were on their way out to Bartlett Lake. But uh finally that lady, I think she moved to New Mexico and the wholesale business had grown to the point where we were out of space. So we got the other half of the building and uh put the the roasting facility in the back, probably third, and we're trying to figure out what to do at the front half of the second space, and decided to open up a wine bar. Figured that people that like have a pallet for coffee are also going to enjoy wine. And it became, you know, our place became the the community hangout where we would see people uh in the mornings in the coffee side and they would be back in the evening. And fortunately, we had gotten a lot of good press. Phoenix Magazine and bless her heart, Nikki Buchanan was always very kind and generous with her uh reviews. And uh one year we were, I think, Phoenix Magazine's reader's choice of uh for coffee bars, and at the time I think there were probably 30, 35 Starbucks around. So yeah, I was was pleased with that, and uh we were just a lot of I probably made some good decisions and had a lot of dumb luck.
SPEAKER_00Let's briefly talk about your marketing strategy, which I don't know where I read this, David, but it was something along the lines of you going out, dropping samples, going back to the shop and staring at the phone, hoping it would ring.
SPEAKER_02Well, early on I did drive around the the valley quite a bit and just giving away free samples and uh occasionally would get the door slammed in my face. But uh, and now, you know, we've been doing this a long, long time, and I've been so fortunate to be roasting for you know some of the best restaurants in the valley, Arizona, uh some of the most prominent chefs. Uh I could go down a list of of people like Tarbell and Bianco and Chrissa, and obviously Charlene Badman, I think you know her. And so uh and that early on too was was part of our strategy was to try to get into these amazing places, and then I could go, you know, down the street and say, Yeah, I roast Chris Bianco's coffee. And so that gave me some credibility. And he, of course, has been extremely kind over the years, and I don't know how long we've roasted for him as well. But um just like I say, we've had a lot of a lot of luck, worked hard, and we've got a uh a wooden sign up in the roastery that says work hard and be nice, and uh we need more people doing that.
SPEAKER_00When we were first talking about what kind of coffee we're gonna carry here at FMB, and I did indicate in the intro that obviously Charlene said it's David Anderson and nobody but at David Anderson, I was able at least to talk to you about what we wanted. And I recall telling you that I didn't want the coffee to take center stage to the desserts. In other words, I didn't want a big, ostentatious bold blend. We wanted something on the lighter style. And that's when I learned from you that actually when you roast the coffee beans a little bit less, it actually increases the caffeine level. And please correct me if I'm wrong, David, but let's talk about roasting and the different levels and how that affects caffeine and flavor.
SPEAKER_02Uh, you know, I've heard for a long, long time, you know, if uh the lighter roasts are spending less time in the roaster and you're not burning away as much of the caffeine through the roasting process. And I've heard another side of the story where that's not necessarily true. But uh uh I've always been of the mindset if you under-roast coffee, you're not going to develop the flavors and the nuances that it has. And if you over-roast it uh dark like some big major corporations do, uh you'll burn away some of the flavors and the nuances uh that the coffee has, as well as giving it giving it a carbon-like taste or flavor profile that overwhelms and masks all the nuances the coffee actually has. I've been all through Central South America sourcing coffee, visiting farms, farmers. I remember we had gone to a me and a friend who roast coffee up in Portland, uh, Water Avenue coffee, and we had uh gone out to we drove probably an hour and a half out in the jungle to this little village, and there was a co-op there where a lot of small farmers would bring their coffee. What country is this, David? Uh El Salvador. Okay. And we walk into this room, and there's a big circle of chairs with women, children, young, old, there to come to see us because we were the first roasters that had ever visited that place. And I almost get choked up, you know, recalling that incident. They were just so gracious and kind. And all the people that I've met throughout my career visiting these farms are just the salt of the earth people that are breaking their backs. You've got women and children that are working just like the men, maybe even do more uh work than what the men do uh walking up the sides of mountains and volcanoes that you can barely walk up, and then they're picking coffee where you're you're having to select, pick one at a time, like about the size of a grape, and they ripen at different stages. So you've got to be very selective on which ones you pick. And you've got a 40-pound bag of coffee cherries that you're carrying, and uh it's people have no idea when they uh raise a cup of coffee up to their lips how much human toil went into that.
SPEAKER_00David, if I were to want to open up a coffee house, and let's say I outfitted my place with all the right equipment and all of that, in my line of work, you know, there's distributors that come to you and let, you know, you you taste different wines they bring you and what have you. In Arizona, who do you call to say, hey, what coffee you got that I can buy from you to roast? How does that work? Is that is that do you who do you reach out to or well?
SPEAKER_02I work with a a few different importers. One of them is called Sustainable Harvest. They're located up in Portland. They've been around about 25 years. They we pay a premium for the coffee, but they do a tremendous amount of uh benevolent work training, uh teaching farmers how to improve their crops, how to maximize their profits. Um the coffee prices are uh set on the commodities market. And it fluctuates. And there was a time, you know, I've got uh a friend in Colombia who he knew other farmers that were chopping, cutting down their coffee plants to grow other uh other crops so that they could afford to feed their families. Because and sustainable uh pays the the farmers upfront to buy their crop uh with a premium price and they get paid right away uh rather than having to wait to sell uh you know maybe four or five bags at a time, 150 pound burlet bags at a time, waiting for their crop to be sold, where sustainable harvest pays them a lump sum right up front and a premium.
SPEAKER_00So, in terms of running a business where you feel really good about everyone getting their fair share, that's that's definitely your at least one of your number one places to go to the city.
SPEAKER_02Oh, sustainability, yes. And you know, climate change is definitely impacting the coffee industry. Uh because of the heat. Uh they're having to go higher up the mountains to to grow the coffee uh to where you know the temperature is there's a lot of similarities between coffee and wine. And I know you know a little bit about wine. Um so that's that's how it's impacting the and sustainability with uh pricing and so on, where people cannot afford to make a living and feed their families because of the coffee prices.
SPEAKER_00How do you go about picking, David? And this is before you started going to these places yourself. Do do you have a list of different coffees from all over the world and do they come with different profiles? Are coffees from different parts of the world different prices? Yes.
SPEAKER_02Uh part of it is based on supply. Um there's some countries that their their production is much, much smaller than than others. Um Brazil obviously is the the world's largest uh coffee supplier and Colombia, which you're familiar with, uh is like number two. And I can't remember off the top of my head who's three, but they sort of bounce back and forth. Vietnam is another big country as well. But um it uh there's like I say, there's four major growing regions. You're gonna have Central America, South America, Africa, and Indonesia. And we will keep coffees from all of those regions. Uh some of the Indonesians and the African coffees are maybe more expensive than say Peru. Um and again, as far as uh getting coffees, knowing which ones to buy, the the importers will send us coffee samples. Um, you know, and we've got a small miniature coffee roaster or sample roaster where we can do 200 gram uh batches at a time. Anytime there's like a new coffee we're considering, the importer will send us uh, you know, a pound or so of coffee and we'll roast it uh to different profiles and then cup it blind to see where that particular coffee shows and tastes best. And we'll uh sit down as a group to do that and figure out, you know, this coffee tasted better like at a full city roast or whatever. And and we'll do that with the coffees and you know, we'll try to bring the uh exemplify the the flavors and the nuance that the makes the coffee show best.
SPEAKER_00I remember back in the day I had purchased a pound of Jamaican blue that I was told was some of the best coffee in the world, and frankly I don't remember exactly all the reasons why. My question has to do with the the way that these coffees are priced. How much of that, David, has to do with the demand, the supply, or even the actual uniqueness and sort of, I don't know, this coffee tastes great kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02Well, early, I'd say early 90s, you know, Jamaica Blue was thought of as you know supposedly the the best. But there's it's okay. I'd bought a couple barrels, it comes in a barrel instead of a bag. And there was a I recall a Jamaica Blue coffee house in Old Town there for a long, long time. Uh some of it's good coffee, I suppose. Um I'd had some samples sent to me here not long ago, and and my personal opinion was it's not anything special. There's a but coffee's a lot like wine. You know, some people like Pinot, some people like cabs, depending maybe on what food they're eating. But coffee's the same way. Um I like some of the Indonesian coffees. You know, people are all the time asking me, what's your favorite coffee? And I said, I don't know, it depends on what I'm drinking this week. But uh but why do you like Indonesian so much? It's got uh the flavor profiles, uh it's it's got some fruits, some sweetness, and uh the body and the mouthfeel is is is good. And uh we drink a lot of different coffees. And I to switch gears here momentarily, you know, uh Alison, my wife, has been with me to Origin on a number of occasions. And we had uh gone to a conference in Cartagena here a couple maybe three, four years back, now that I think about it. I always forget that blank two years of COVID. But uh she came back and inspired. She worked for a packaging company, they do luxury uh bags and boxes, and she said, I'm making beautiful trash, and you're doing things to help change families' lives. And she and uh my stepdaughter had started a company called Exploradora, which is uh a female co or female scout. And you know, coffee's been a male-dominated industry for you know centuries. And they came back inspired, and both Allison's been to Origin, and so is her daughter Wade. They uh they started this company and they're uh only purchasing coffee from female farmers. And so, and they've worked with uh uh a women's co-op in Honduras. Uh they've also bought some of her other knick-knacks like purses and things that they they've also sold uh on their website. But there's also a social component uh based in Jackson, Mississippi called uh oh, I can't think of the name. But anyway, they're donating a dollar a bag and uh it's Springboard to Opportunity. Okay. And they are donating a dollar for each bag, and this uh organization helps uh providing financial aid to females who either in the form of housing, I think they get to sign up uh for uh a woman can sign up for a year and get a thousand dollars a year or a thousand dollars a month for a year to help get her back on her feet, get housing and to feed her children and so on. So there's uh not only is the coffee good, and uh the guy that roasts it does a pretty good job too, um, where they're making uh uh a small change for women. And uh her company has there have been some big major corporations uh in Houston, and now it's being that uh I can't remember, about a thousand employees. The they're serving at their new headquarters, and uh it's being distributed now across the U.S. So she's got David uh customers in Dallas and uh also now here in the Valley because the the distributor that's uh distributing her coffee is nationwide. So she jumped out of the chute and is is going well. She may turn from a bag lady into a bean lady, the way things look at some point in time.
SPEAKER_00I um I've had the coffee. I'm a fan. Uh I'm also a fan of the marketing and the and and the packaging. Uh there's a quackquack somewhere on that bag. You do you know the story about that little duck crack on the bag? It's a blue-footed boob booby. Uh I'm sorry, can you repeat that? A blue-footed booby? Yes, and what is that?
SPEAKER_02Uh it's uh a bird. Uh I was fortunate when after we left El Salvador, we went over to the Galapagos since we were were uh nearby, and uh they were everywhere over there. And how she and they locked on to the blue-footed booby, um I'm not sure you would have to ask her. Okay. Um women do have boobs, and it's a female organization, so that may have been some small connection of correlation there of sorts.
SPEAKER_00And who doesn't love boobies? So growing up, David, uh obviously I come from Colombia, and you know, coffee has always been part of the just the culture, period. In fact, I've learned how to brew coffee properly from you over the years. And because I remember growing up in Colombia the way well, first and foremost, it's changed a lot now, but when I was growing up, coffee you always bought coffee ground. You never ground the coffee yourself. Furthermore, and my uncle Hector still makes coffee this way, which is with a clothes sock. And it's it looks even anti-hygienic, and it's just a it looks it looks like a long, dirty, white sock. You put the coffee in it, and it's our version of pour over. I've had it before. Oh but furthermore, when you were little, um, and I've had this conversation with you anymore. I once in a while I will put a little sugar and a little cream of with my coffee, depending on what's going on. But you know, I I I have it black most of the time. But growing up in Colombia, especially adults, you combine coffee with aguapanela or water made from panela, which is basically the you know, it's the rock of brown sugar made from sugar cane. Okay. And that's how you sweeten coffee. But growing up, and when you were little, you were given coffee with aguapanela, which would sort of dilute the coffee, but also you know, make it really nice and sweet. I bring all of that up because the world of coffee, there are so many different ways to, I'm sure, to roast and to make coffee. I remember at one point in time you gave me the aeropress, the plastic chingamadigi that you pressed down. That made terrific coffee. Um anymore, I'm doing pourovers, but I guess what I wanted to ask you is in the world of roasting, um, for example, you you you have mentioned in one of your interviews how excited you were to get this Kirsch and Mauser UG22, I believe from Germany, and it sounds like a war weapon. So, what's the deal with this thing?
SPEAKER_02Well, uh it's built by Probot, which is a German company that has been building roasters for about a hundred and fifty five years, something in that range. Uh yeah, they're known as you know, one of the probably the best coffee roasters in the business, although Loring is coming along that uh definitely giving them some competition. But yeah, they're they're built in uh Emright Germany. And uh I guess during World War II the they converted from building roasters to military equipment, and the the factory got decimated, I guess, by uh uh the Allied bombers. But um but yeah, I had uh they're they're expensive, one of the most expensive roasters, I would say, and uh so I had uh flown to Amsterdam and uh spent a day or two there and uh then drove, got a car and drove to Emmerich, Germany, and uh visited the the Kirsten Mauser factory, which is located there on the probot facility, and got the opportunity to look at the roaster, look it over. I got to roast coffee on it, figure out uh you know what um what options and so on that I wanted with the machine. And uh I wanted to go look these people in the eye before I you know wrote them a $40,000, $50,000 deposit to buy it. And uh got that figured out, and then it was a long, long wait, uh, like a child at Christmas waiting for it to uh get built and shipped to the U.S. So I can I can recall uh once it got put on a container ship, I got a an application on my phone to where I could watch the container ships progress, and uh I see it passing England and you know getting excited, and it finally made it down to the Panama Canal and headed north up the coast, and okay, it's on the final stretch.
SPEAKER_00And uh so for those of us that do not know the intricacies of a roaster, why were you so excited? Can you tell me a couple of reasons why this was better than anything you've had before?
SPEAKER_02Well, the the quality of the workmanship, you know, I I said it's not like it's just the Mercedes of the Coffee Roasters, it's like the Ferrari. The build quality, the cast iron, the machining uh and so on is just superb. Um the pre-1958 Pro Bots, you know, are selling just for crazy amounts of money. The newer machines, you know, even talking with the engineers there, they've told me he told me flat out that uh the the new high production machines that they're selling out, the airflow, the the build quality doesn't come close to the pre-1958s. And the the UG Retros are built just like the 58s, the pre-58s. So yeah, it's been a great machine. We uh I think we've got five coffee roasters now, and I'm looking at buying another large one. We've got another, we just recently bought another facility uh just for storage. And of course, you know and everyone knows about the supply chain issues. Uh I can recall you know, waiting on coffee, and the importer says, I've got like a hundred containers of coffee sitting out on the water that can't get unloaded. And then once they would get to the port, get unloaded, getting them from the the port to the distribution center was another issue. And so this additional building will give us the ability to store you know three, four containers of coffee now. So supply chain, if that becomes another issue, will not impact us.
SPEAKER_00David, when you buy the coffee before you roast it, it comes dry or dry.
SPEAKER_02It's like a a seed. A coffee, a coffee cherry picked off the plant. Looks initially it it uh the plant flowers, the the flowers dry up, the buds then turn into coffee beans. And uh each initially when it first starts to appear on the the plant, it's going to look like a small olive. And then as it ripens, it uh turns to looking maybe like a cherry uh or a cranberry. And there will be two beans in each piece of fruit, and they're referred to as coffee cherries. And then it gets uh processed, dried. Uh it's about as hard as concrete, and it's referred to as green, and it comes shipped to us in 150-pound bags. And you know, it has a certain moisture content. Uh I'd say 95% of the coffee we buy is in a grain pro bag, which is like a uh heavy plastic liner that goes in the burlap bag to maintain the moisture of the coffee. And most of the countries have just a single crop each year. We only buy you know current crop coffee. Um anything that's left over, you know, the the price goes down dramatically because uh, particularly if it's not in a grain pro bag, it will dry out and lose moisture and flavor.
SPEAKER_00My grandmother's parents, Pompilio and Luisa, were farmers and they had 14 kiddos. When they passed, the kiddos were left you know enough money to start a life. But they made most of their money in coffee plantations. And I remember growing up we had coffee plantation farms. And it's so funny when you're there you don't realize what you're seeing when you're little. But I remember the coffee after it was pulled, the the coffee cherries after they were pulled to a grinder that would separate the peel and the pulp from the from the cherry, they used to get laid down like in a thin layer over these rolling platforms, and they were sun-dried. Yes. How does that work anymore? Is that still a thing or or or now they go through an oven or whatever?
SPEAKER_02No, it uh there are some dryers that will help uh uh accelerate the the drying process. But yeah, a lot of the coffee spread out on the ground or on a concrete slab, sometimes uh on a a netted uh structure that's about three feet off the ground where they will spread it down. The coffees that get spread on the ground, uh often when they go to scoop them up, they pick up little pieces of rocks, gravels, nails, screws. Uh and we use a device called a destoner that every bag of coffee that leaves our rocery has gone through a destoner because these little rocks with oil, coffee oils, and so on them look just like a coffee bean. And they will uh dole grinder burrs and brewing a good cup of coffee, the grind is is very, very critical.
SPEAKER_00And so not everybody And that's the name of the machine, a destoner. A destoner. What does he look like? Is it I'm assuming it's really expensive?
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, it depends on the size, but yeah, it's like a $20,000, $25,000 piece of equipment. Uh but it prevents uh rocks and things, foreign particles, which coffee that comes shipped to us in burlap bags. Uh there's frequently um things in the bag that shouldn't be there. And the D-stone will take all of those out. Because the the burrs will will suffer the the the grinder will grind up the little little uh pieces of gravel, but it dulls the burrs and dull coffee burrs typically equate to dull coffee. And uh A screw or a nail, uh we'll just seize the grinder up. And of course that never happens on Tuesday afternoon. It's Friday night when you're in the middle of service. So um why everybody doesn't use uh D-stoner, I don't know. But uh every bag of coffee leaving our roastery has been through a D-stoner. It's another piece of work and time, but uh it's it's necessary.
SPEAKER_00I want to briefly talk about, David, this idea of going to the source. And this question is quite personal for me. You know, I as as you know, I was born in Colombia. I grew up in New York City in the 80s. I'm sorry. And I don't want to repeat what it was like to be Colombian in the 80s in New York. It came with baggage, stereotypical baggage. Having said that, over the years I've taken friends to Colombia and and they've fallen in love with the country. You've been to Colombia, and I want to hear your experience of going to that country.
SPEAKER_02Uh you will meet uh farmers that might have a half of an acre that are trying to grow coffee, uh, and then some that have you know own you know hundreds and hundreds of acres. Uh it's uh obviously a beautiful country. And Central America, South America, coffee growing countries uh are like a tropical rainforest climate, and um the people are just so kind. And you know, driving through one of the little villages and so on, and seeing the children out and the dogs, there was one trip I took uh I just focused on taking coffee dog pictures, and a lot of them look like they're hungry and uh you know just break your heart seeing some of them. But uh I've been to Columbia a few times and Allison has as well. Um it just uh it kind of changes and gives you appreciation for what goes into the backbreaking work of producing coffee. In fact, I've sent all my staff to Origin as well. You know, expensive, but I knew that they would come back with much a much deeper respect for what we're doing.
SPEAKER_00What are some things that we don't know about the coffee world in terms of provenance and what happens with people who work the field? What is something that you can share with us?
SPEAKER_02Well, um a lot of the farms, you know, have to hire pickers when uh because just like wine, they will be checking the bricks level of the coffee beans, and it has to be picked at a proper time to ensure good quality and flavor. So there's a lot of similarities between you know growing grapes and growing coffee beans. And uh that's just one of the challenges, you know, of as being a uh a farmer yourself right now. Um you're at the mercy of uh Mother Nature. And uh there have been a lot of hurricanes that uh have wiped out, I know Honduras here a few years back, just uh got decimated. Um and the challenges, I guess, with with growing it, uh it's just something that people don't realize. You know, they're farmers.
SPEAKER_00One thing I remember, David, unlike grapes, where if all is well and everything ripened evenly, you're cutting off clusters. And I remember with coffee picking, you never picked sort of a cluster of coffee beans. You picked single beans by hand.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there'll be a cluster of of coffee cherries, and they don't ripen at the same time. That's just uh that's the way the it seems to work. And so you're selectively picking, you know, one coffee cherry at a time, and then you know, they may pick that uh field, you know, two or three different times just based on the the sugar content or the bricks of of the coffee cherries. And often, you know, they're getting paid by the pound. So uh it's pretty well known in the industry that the women are much better pickers than the men because they're more selective and pay closer attention and follow what they should be doing, maybe more than the uh the men do.
SPEAKER_00All right. I'm gonna change gears a little bit, David. It's a two-part question about iced coffee. Number one, why is it way stronger than hot brew? Number two, what's the big whoop about nitro cold brew?
SPEAKER_02Uh well, there have been a lot of fads in coffee. Uh back when coal brew became uh on the horizon, uh Whole Foods had come to us uh for their their Phoenix market to develop uh a coal brew and nitro program for them. And at the time, my roaster at the time was kind of stubborn and hard-headed, and it seemed that he thought he owned the business. And if uh we did something, made a decision that he didn't like, and finally uh and he left because uh I was pursuing the coal brew. Uh and we got in kind of on the ground level there. And it's funny, I had reached out to a few people around the country saying, Hey, I don't want any secrets, but I would just like to to come you know for a couple days, you know, I'll pay you like a thousand dollars a day consulting, and I didn't even get a response from anyone. It early on, it was uh You mean someone to train you on the art of the just yeah to figure out how how it's done uh on a commercial level.
SPEAKER_00So you were cold calling people like who?
SPEAKER_02Oh gosh. Uh fellow in Texas, uh one up in the New England. I don't remember their names off the top of my head. But uh and then it finally just got to the point where you know we were gonna have to figure it out.
SPEAKER_00And and why do you think the friction, the opposition, David, that people were not?
SPEAKER_02Of what? Uh I mean how what what's quality, knowing how to do it. Uh you know, early on with the coffee roasting, coffee roasters uh shared information. I had helped a few people, uh myself, and but when it came to the coal brew, everybody was uh tight-lipped on that. We had bought a uh, I think we started off with like a 600-gallon stainless tank, and you know, as you know, stainless steel is expensive. And we worked probably, I'm gonna say six or seven months uh trying to figure out the right coffee, whether it be a single origin or a blend, the the roast profile, the grind density of the coffee to to brew it, the seeping method, water temperatures. And we we came up with uh a product that uh I think we're all very proud of. We've we have people that come into the roastry on a regular basis, people from all over the country, because Carefree and Cave Creek are kind of a tourist destination. And I've lost count of how many people have told us it's the the best, this is the best coal brew I've ever tasted. And here a year or so ago, we won Best of the Valley for coal brew and nitro. But um, but yeah, it's it's not just a flash in the pan. The coal brew is going to be around a long, long time. And with respect to the caffeine content, it has about twice the amount that you know a brewed cup of hot. And that's just a matter of the coffee to water ratio, the the amount of you know, ground coffee uh mixed with a certain quantity of water.
SPEAKER_00But it from my uneducated mind, it seems that if you have more coffee, it's gonna taste bitter and stronger, or is that where the whole secrecy lied, that balance?
SPEAKER_02It's gonna depend on the the water to coffee ratio as well as the roast uh degree and profile of the coffee that you're you're brewing.
SPEAKER_00So with time on your side, David, what was the big deal about the secrecy? Now that you've done it and you have an idea of the process and you've gotten all these awards, th I'm assuming you share, if somebody asks you more or less what Yeah, it's funny.
SPEAKER_02I don't know that anybody has has ever even come to Well, I'd I'd help uh I'd share some information with my friend in Portland and told him, you know, you're welcome to send a couple of your people out. And you've heard of Dutch Brothers, Dutch Grove.
SPEAKER_00Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_02They uh had reached out to me early early on in the process, or after we had had developed our coffee to see if uh talking to us about providing the coal brew for their so the owners and they had hired a uh beer brewing guy, flew down on the corporate plane uh to visit, and I could tell that they were just coming to to try to figure out how we were doing this because the brewer guy must have asked me 40-50 questions, and I just say that's proprietary. And um they are the largest independent in the country and are moving towards towards the east coast. They're about I think in the Midwest in the Kansas City area now. But uh so I didn't share anything with them. Uh but but yeah, somebody small coming up, you know, I would tell them the process and try to help them out. What is the nitro part? It's uh cold brew and nitro are the same coffee. Uh the nitro brew is just infused with nitrogen. And it gives it this creamy, silky uh body and mouth feel. Um and you end up with a nice head on the top that uh provides uh you know that that silky texture.
SPEAKER_00Does it and I guess this might be the wrong question. Does it have something to do with the pH so that it tastes less acidic? Does the nitro help with that?
SPEAKER_02Or no, no. If you you taste our cold brew, you're gonna see there's absolutely no bitterness to it. You're just gonna get that rich coffee flavor and smooth but flavorful. And uh typically, you know, cold brew you're gonna serve over ice, a lot of people add milk, uh, a variety of different milks, and uh the nitrode, you're usually just drinking it like a Guinness.
SPEAKER_00There are and I I'm not sure, I think I did mention that, but uh no. Um if I wanted to get coffee, your coffee, David, I know you you carry them, sorry, you sell to sprouts, Whole Foods, but I also want to talk about the box. What's the deal with the box?
SPEAKER_02Uh we've got an honor box on the outside of the the building that uh it'll hold about a hundred bags of coffee. And uh it it got started with uh one time I had a barbecue grill at the before we moved into this location where somebody would be working in Phoenix said, Hey, I can't get up in time uh to pick it up before you're gone. And I said, Well, I'll just leave it in the barbecue grill. And there was a mail slot in the door for mail. I said, you can just put money in the in that slot. So then we, I don't know, about nine years ago we moved into the facility we're presently in, much bigger and room for a lot more coffee roasters and so on. And so I welded up a cabinet that we put out the outside of the building and uh with a mail slot, and it's there now for people who can just you know come up at any hour of the day. And the sign says if you don't have cash or change, just take it and pay, you know, next time you're you're driving by. And uh so yeah, we've done that for years, probably going on 10, 12 years, I'd say. And we get lots of funny IOUs and notes and uh 24-7, there's coffee there for if you've run out. And there's hell, there's times I've run out and have to run up there and grab one out of the cabinet. So I have to ask. Uh does do people pay up? I mean, like, never, never once have I come, have we shown up and it's been cleaned out. And I had a $20 bill with a yellow sticky note on it that uh it must have been from some truck driver. But he said, I came through here uh about a year ago and didn't have any cash, and uh here it is. So a year later. Yep. That's amazing. Oh, and we get all kinds of funny notes. I can remember having some elderly woman that anytime anybody comes and visits the roastery, we always give them a free bag. That's part of my marketing strategy because I know once they taste it, they're gonna come back. Uh, and there's some people that act like they've just won the lottery, and I've got to like argue with them to take it. But there was this elderly woman, I think her name was uh Janice, and I explained, yeah, if you don't have cash, just go ahead and take it. Oh my gosh, my mother would never, she would never allow that.
SPEAKER_00That's amazing, David. Um, well, listen, I'm I want to start sort of uh landing this plane a little bit, but I do want to ask you a couple of more questions. Um one important one being um for me or anyone listening that is interested in getting into the world of coffee. If if someone came up to you, David, and said, I really admire what you do, I'm very inspired by what you've done. I I like to get started in this business. What advice do you give them now that you've had quite a you know a tenure, a story career in the coffee world? Usually it's don't do it. And then after they're very, you know, stubborn and they said I do appreciate that, but not really.
SPEAKER_02Uh well, it uh people, you know, pursue things for different reasons. But uh, if it's a lifelong passion that you always wanted to own your own place, you know, I will share, you know, the positive things as well as the negative. Uh, you know, what we were talking about a little before we got started is whether you're there or not, you're always thinking about it. There's something going on. I've got to order this, I've got to, you know, payroll taxes, whatever it might be. Um you've got that that's you know, ball and chains around your neck. Uh as far as a coffee house goes, you know, we consult, people come to us that are getting ready to open a place up, and I will help them with, you know, the layout of their bar and uh the important things of uh the physical space. But no, I will let them know, you know, this is going to be a commitment that, you know, it can be very, very rewarding just uh uh psychologically. You're gonna have people that you know are so happy to show up there every day. They may not be coming for just a cup of coffee, but to see that friendly face that knows them by name and knows their drink. Um so it can be very rewarding in a lot of, I guess, different ways. Either uh the the way that you're you're starting everybody's mornings, as well as you know, if you're fortunate and uh you can you can make a decent living as well. But uh and the other thing that anybody who's had any kind of restaurant knows you never have enough storage. That is totally true. Yes, sir. They'll come and say, Yeah, I found this little place that's 800 square feet, and you know, say, well, that that's not gonna work unless you're just doing like a window. But uh but yeah, it's been uh my best chapter and uh can be rewarding, you know, any type of business. If if you're entrepreneurial and and uh have that drive and are somewhat of a risk taker, uh it can be very, very rewarding.
SPEAKER_00If you could rewind, David. Let's pick a number. I don't know, 40 years when you were in your late teens, early twenties. And you can give yourself advice after having lived quite a rich life, what would you tell yourself? Work hard and be nice. But you already done that. Is there something you wish somebody would have told you?
SPEAKER_02You should have given me that question earlier. Drive, motivation, uh luck. Uh there's a lot of things that you know go into uh being happy and successful.
SPEAKER_00Well, David, I uh you know, when people talk about the coffee that we serve here, um I do talk about the fact that I love the coffee, but interestingly enough, it's sometimes not about the coffee and it's about the transfer of energy and association that you have with the people involved with the product that you know, with the people that make the product. And over the last 13 years, uh I say this and I want to acknowledge you because you've always been supportive, you've always been a great cheerleader to what we've done here at F and B. Um you should be in the marketing department, actually, and and you know, you should be on some unofficial payroll. Uh, but we are so lucky to know you. And I always say that, you know, part of the reason why we chose to showcase artisans, craftsmen locally is because there's a human scale to it. And we get a chance to shake your hand and we get a chance to know you, and it just becomes this big rich story when you're running a business. So I speak for Charlene also. Uh, we are so lucky to know you. Thank you so much. Like I like to say, please don't go changing, David. You're an amazing human being, and and we're so lucky to know you, Allison and the whole crew. And I appreciate so much the time that you spent here with me today.
SPEAKER_02Well, uh, likewise, I'm so honored to be roasting coffee for you and Charlene. This is an amazing thing you've created. I'm very excited about uh what's going on down in Senoida. And uh, we were just there, and it is just it's going to be uh a showcase, and people will come to Arizona to to visit. See, I told you, there you are. There you go again, on the clock now. Uh no, David, thank you so much. I wanted to ask you the question you asked me about what would uh you'd like to have been told at a young age to be successful.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god, David. Um touche. Yes, no, um and I've had this conversation with my kids. Um I would have told me travel more before you have a family, and I would also tell me relax. It's gonna be okay. Just relax, enjoy it. Life is too short. Um, and I try to remind myself of that every single day. So uh ladies and gentlemen, that was uh David Anderson. Uh thank you for joining us today. Until next time, this is your host, Pavlemilich.