NEW Ep. 358 Rebranding MENtal Health

In this episode, Giving Voice explores how mental health conversations—especially those aimed at men—need a major rebrand in order to be more effective and approachable. Their guest is Ethan Getchell, a former business student whose career path took a sharp turn after the loss of his brother to suicide. That moment of grief reshaped Ethan’s values and inspired him to pursue a career in mental health counseling, with a focus on reaching men who might otherwise avoid therapy.

Ethan shares how cultural ideals like rugged individualism and emotional suppression have created a barrier between many men and the support they need. He discusses how the isolation of the pandemic further revealed the prevalence of covert depression—mental health struggles that often go unnoticed until distraction is stripped away. To help men engage, Ethan emphasizes the importance of rebranding therapy using language and tools that resonate. That includes practical strategies like starting with behavioral changes rather than emotional deep-dives, using habit-tracking apps, and drawing on simple, memorable check-ins like the four elements: earth (food), water (hydration), fire (movement), and air (breathing).

The episode highlights the importance of meeting men where they are—whether that’s through humor, shared activities, or just listening without judgment. It also underscores how the way we frame mental health matters. Whether it’s through the creative campaigns of ManTherapy.com or Ethan’s own “Hey Man” newsletter, the message is clear: therapy isn’t about being broken, it’s about being human. Carly and Terry close the conversation with reflections on how everyday moments—like asking if someone has eaten or needs a hug—can become meaningful acts of care and connection.

Ethan's Hey Man newsletter: https://ethangetchell.substack.com/

Man Therapy: https://mantherapy.org/

https://recovery.com/
https://givingvoicetodepression.com/

Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/GivingVoiceToDepression/
X (formerly Twitter): https://x.com/VoiceDepression
Terry's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/givingvoicetodepression/

Transcript

Terry [00:00:04] Hello and welcome to the Giving Voice to Depression podcast brought to you by Recovery.com, a free online resource created to make it easier to find addiction and mental health treatment and resources. Each week we profile a guest here who shares intimate details of their mental health journey. They share because they understand that when people don't talk about their depression or other mental health conditions, those of us who struggle with them can feel like we're the only ones. That there is something wrong with us and that no one understands. We understand. I'm Terry, the creator and co-host of this podcast. You have my promise that we'll keep it real here. Depression is real and we're not going to sugarcoat our discussions about it. Hope is also real and you'll get a dose of that here, too. Thanks for joining us. This episode has both a guest and a guest co-host, Carly McCollow, a social worker and educator in New York who has lived experience with depression and close family members with mental health diagnoses, including me. As my daughter, Carly has had a front row seat to the creation and growth of this podcast and when Dr. Sanz stepped down last month, Carly stepped up and threw her hat in the ring. Welcome, Carly! 

Carly [00:01:25] Hi, Mom. We're starting this episode reading from the website mantherapy.com. It asks the question, why do men get depressed, and answers with this: "Even superheroes have their kryptonite. Depression is the result of uncontrollable changes in brain chemistry, often caused by your environment, personal history, genes, and even physical health." 

Terry [00:01:51] It continues, "... and don't kid yourself, depression is a spectrum, and you don't have to have full-blown major depressive disorder to experience these symptoms and benefit from some of the recommended interventions. Even if your depression hasn't taken out a mortgage in your mind, it's telling you that something needs attention." 

Carly [00:02:12] It's a very different tone than most of the communication about depression, and it's different for a reason. As this week's guest, Ethan Getchell, also believes, if we want to reach people — in particular, men — who might resist both the idea of therapy and vulnerable discussions of mental health and feelings, we have to take a different approach. Here now is Ethan, giving his voice to depression. 

Terry [00:02:44] Just a few years ago, Ethan was a college student, earning a business degree. His plan, in a nutshell, was... 

Ethan Getchell [00:02:50] Go into commercial real estate and just sell property and make as much money as I can. 

Terry [00:02:57] A phone call informing Ethan his brother had died by suicide changed his life and its trajectory. 

Ethan Getchell [00:03:04] And I remember when I got the call and It just like shattered me and I went home for a week. Went through some of the logistics and went through just some of the fogginess that grief creates in the first week, went back to school, spent that year disoriented and just kind of recollecting myself. And after about a year of grieving, really noticed how it changed my values and what I cared about. And I kind of fell into this purpose of wanting to go into mental health counseling. And it's funny, the progression going from my personal experience to my personal grief, to my education and my professional experience, it's really led to this conversation of gender. I feel like I really can't escape it. And it's important to have because there are differences with men and women and how we raise young men, how we talk about mental health. 

Terry [00:04:09] How do you see the difference so that I know what we're talking about? 

Ethan Getchell [00:04:14] It's hard to pinpoint one reason, but [00:04:17]I think — specifically in the US — there is a culture of independence, rugged individualism: that lone cowboy that goes out, sleeps in the desert. That was very glorified for the last like 10-20 years. Clint Eastwood movies: there's a whole era of that. And the problem is the reality of that, if I were to go out into the desert right now and do ... be alone, I would die pretty quickly. And so I think the reality is we're not all lone cowboys. And, but we haven't been taught how to build our tribe and build our community and be vulnerable and be emotional. [41.7s]

Terry [00:05:00] Ethan believes the pandemic made those issues much more clear, even to people who'd never before considered them. 

Ethan Getchell [00:05:07] I think that was the first time that the majority of men saw, hey, it's really hard to be isolated and stuck in my house all day and not be able to go to work and not being able to do my hobbies and play my sports. And that's where covert depression really takes its biggest form is because you can get away with living your life when you have your other pillars holding you up. You can live with that covert depression. But when those two distractions are taken away and you're isolated in your house, all of a sudden you're faced to sit with your thoughts. And the reality kicks in of, I'm really not doing okay. I'm not doing as good as I thought. And yet, there's nowhere to turn and they don't have those systems built. And so how do we go back to, really, it seems like basic core things of vulnerability, learning emotions, building community. But that's what I find is most necessary. That's a lot of the work that I'm doing with adult men, young men, and they're receptive towards it. 

Terry [00:06:08] But for therapists and clinical social workers like Ethan to have the opportunity to do that work, men have to be willing to engage with the process. And here's where the two areas of Ethan's study come together. 

Ethan Getchell [00:06:21] Why aren't we getting men into therapy? It's because the marketing in what men conceptualize and think of when they hear therapy kind of sucks right now and then they don't want to come. So a lot of my social media presence has been trying to rebrand what therapy looks like. So when I do get guys in the door, we're having great conversations, ending pretty optimistically. 

Terry [00:06:49] Even in sessions, Ethan adjusts his approach to make it more likely to succeed. Take cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT, for instance. Its focus is the triangle of feelings, thoughts and behaviors — and how each directly affects the others. 

Ethan Getchell [00:07:06] [00:07:06]It can be hard for guys to sit with their thoughts and do talk therapy face to face. But there's an opportunity, I try to start on the behavior side. So I use this app, it's called Habit Share. I just love it. It's a free app. I don't have any affiliation, I don't get paid by them, but it's just a simple one where you add a habit and you can track each day and you can share it with people. So it creates this accountability and all of a sudden you have a percentage. You put a green or a red. And it tells you, yeah, I ate clean six days out of the week. And then once you do it for a month, I do it 80% of the time. And now you have some hard evidence and data that you can look back and be like, okay, last month, you did this 50%. How can we improve it to 75%? And now we're building some specific goals and strategies to do that. And this is therapy and this is like what is helping people get out of those depressive states, build better habits, start to acknowledge that their thoughts are influencing them, affecting them. [61.8s] And it's done through a rebranding and a communication style that I'm like, hey, we're doing therapy right now and it's not hurting you. 

Terry [00:08:19] What are the habits, practices for us to be paying attention to and leaning into so that we can be healthier ... have a better chance of fighting whatever darkness might be coming our way? 

Ethan Getchell [00:08:33] So I see patients with borderline personality, you see depression, suicidality. And one of the things that I talk about is in those dark bubble moments, when things are overwhelming, it's really easy to neglect the basics. And so I've come up, it's quite simple. [00:08:56]I use the four elements. I use earth, wind, fire, water, and I use those to represent basically themselves. Earth: eating. Water: water. Fire: movement, exercise. And air, breathing. And so I do those four are always the start. And so it's like, have you eaten today? Have you drank any water? Have you gotten any movement? Have you left your apartment? Um, have you done any kind of breathing exercise, prayer, meditation? And so easily, we forget about those when we're struggling, when times are hard and I, and I understand like this is a struggle, this is real. But at the same time, the first step to making it better is to taking care of the things that sustain your life in Maslow's Hierarchy: take care of your basic needs first. And so I find that patients resonate with that core four elements and they can think of that pretty easily even when they're in a heightened state, they can come back to those four. [61.1s]

Terry [00:09:57] That's also really bringing top of mind to the things we can control, because in darkness — for whatever reason — there's a lot out of our control. 

Ethan Getchell [00:10:08] Exactly, and that gets to some of the more reflective and greater lessons that can come from therapy. I feel like when you first get in the door, there's kind of two modes. You're either in crisis management, you're in a current depressive state, you are feeling suicidal, X, Y, and Z, you're struggling with something —you have to go into crisis management. You have to manage it there. You have come up with your protective factors. You have to just survive, at that point. And then the other mode is [00:10:40]once you're not in crisis management, you're not putting out fires, then you can start to explore. You can start to do some of the deeper inner work. You can start to look at your strengths and weaknesses. You can become curious. And in that transition, by starting the core four, figuring out what works well, what you're struggling with, then you start to learn some of your strengths, some of your weaknesses, some of your curiosities, some of your passions. And then those just naturally lead into deeper conversations of core beliefs, upbringing, future dreams, aspirations, and you can get into some of that deeper therapeutic work.[33.5s]

Terry [00:11:14] So if there is a reluctance to engage in therapy and you say it needs to be rebranded, in what way are you doing that and what approach do you find is more palatable to someone who might be thinking I'm not crazy, I don't need a therapist. 

Ethan Getchell [00:11:29] Yeah, there's this great organization that comes to mind and they're called, uh, man therapy. And I know that this isn't a visual thing, but they have posters. I actually have some of them. And this one says, a mustache is no place to hide your emotions. This one says need a hand and it's just got a, it's got a glove. And so like, these are just examples of this great marketing. Never ignore your mind's check engine light. And what I just love about it is... The marketing, the perspective, the rebranding of what mental health can look like. And then also the effectiveness, they're finding that thousands of men are receptive to this. And so there's a need for it. And what they've done is rebrand and now they're getting people the care that they need. So it just shows the power of communicating your message to that audience. And so I just think that's where it's so beautifully pairs like my passion for mental health with my passion for communicating and marketing and rebranding it, yeah. 

Terry [00:12:34] I'm fascinated by something you said. So I think that there are a lot of people who believe that happiness and the ability to experience it would come from not having bad stuff happen in your life, from not have challenges and struggles, from not having ... needing to grieve, from not losing all the things we can lose. When you and a lot of research says it's actually having those things and getting through them that can lead you to have a sense of accomplishment, a sense of purpose, and from that we can derive happiness. That's a really, like, turning the glove inside out. 

Ethan Getchell [00:13:16] Yeah, [00:13:17]I think what all of these different things that sell — these New York Times bestsellers and these self-help books and these speakers, the Jocko Willink and the David Goggins and Brené Browns and Mel Robbins — like at the core, they're all expressing this idea of happiness, but it not coming from comfort and complacency but from going outside of that and expanding and in this discomfort and in the challenge and providing different tools and tips. [35.6s] And I think there are so many different recipes out there. It's different for everybody. 

Terry [00:14:00] Everything you say will, of course, resonate with and apply to anybody, regardless of gender. But specifically speaking to young men, men in general, that you're focused on ... when you speak to them, when you listen to them ... what do you think some of the key messages and needs are for them to understand to be able to reach their potential and avoid all of the pitfalls. I don't mean that we can avoid the pitfalls of life but avoid being overly affected by them to the point where they can disable us. 

Ethan Getchell [00:14:39] The first thing that I try to do whenever I work with anybody — but especially with young men — is to just hear them and step out of any advice or anything that I wanna give them or anything I assume I know about them when I'm looking at them and really just try to be curious about their experience. And I've found so much power and strength in just that act, because I find that if they're knocking on my door, it's because they don't have people that are doing that. They don't have people who are sitting with them or asking about them or giving them a space to share their successes and their struggles. And it's amazing how with just enough persistent patient listening, you can get them to come out of their shell and start sharing things. And then you can start playing with these different ideas of things that are successes, things that are struggles. And then that's when we can apply everything we've been talking about and help them lean into those things that they're struggling with. With that rapport that I've built, it creates this idea that, yeah you might fall, you you might get hurt, and you might stumble. But it's not over and it's not the end. 

Carly [00:16:13] It's not over, it's not the end, and it is so hard to believe that sometimes when you're in it ... It's so real. 

Terry [00:16:18] Absolutely, absolutely.

Carly [00:16:22] Before we get into anything sort of heady, I just wanna shout out to Ethan for sharing his story. Also for being someone who made a career pivot into the mental health profession. The mental health profession really needs more folks joining it and more men who make it accessible and also model that these are, in fact, conversations that just human beings need to have. 

Terry [00:16:46] Right, they've been so often called difficult conversations or uncomfortable conversations. And if I have any ability to change the adjective, I wanna change it to necessary. 

Carly [00:16:56] Yeah, they really are necessary, and there's also so many things that are really stressful that happen to men that, sometimes, I think folks don't necessarily know who to talk to about it. Circulating on the internet just this week was a clip from this season of "Survival of the Thickest" on Netflix, and it's four men playing basketball together. And one turns to the other three and says, like, I need a recommendation for a therapist. And the two friends go, "Oh, I'm seeing a therapist," and he goes, "You are? The two of you are?" And the third one goes "Like, I'm a licensed therapist." And he goes "You guys been going behind my back emoting? 

Terry [00:17:44] Emoting is such a great word. 

Carly [00:17:46] So whoever wrote the script did a really nice job with the scene. But there is this sense of you've been going behind my back emoting, that there's this way in which emoting publicly or in front of other people is something that... doesn't always feel possible. 

Terry [00:18:02] Nobody wants to be judged as being weak or whatever else they might fear being judged as. 

Carly [00:18:08] Right. Soft ... vulnerable, right? And I think we use the word vulnerable all the time and almost always with a positive association with it. And there is that very real other side of it, which is the vulnerable feels like I'm more susceptible to being hurt. 

Terry [00:18:27] It is, yeah.

Carly [00:18:29] Right. It's a real thing. And so I always appreciate men like Ethan, who are sharing their own stories, are also creating safe spaces in their own practice for all types of people to come to therapy. Later in the clip, they're talking about whether the guy who needs a therapist should see a female therapist or a male therapist. And they sort of share, "I think you should probably see a male therapist with sort of what you have going on." And he's like, "What do you mean what I have going on?" But it was just this sense of that there are sometimes things that are easier to talk to with someone who feels similar to you in some aspect of your identity. And sometimes it's easier to talk across difference, to talk someone who does not have that same lived experience. 

Terry [00:19:17] Mhm. I liked Ethan's breaking down our core needs into the four elements, because I do think they'd be easy to remember when you're struggling, and it's like, oh, is something as seemingly simple as, have I had any water today? Have I gotten enough sleep? Because those are things that, on your best day, you don't function well without. So I really appreciated how he's making sort of the entre into therapy. About our physical needs and that we can all relate to. Yes, I have those. Then it's like, guess what? Emotional ones too. 

Carly [00:19:50] Yeah. And just the sense of, you know, those four elements really remind us that we are all made up of multiple things, too, that we don't always have to be one thing. And so we can be strong and vulnerable. An acronym that I learned in grad school was this HALTS acronym, H-A-L-T-S. So, are you hungry? Are you angry? For the A. The L is lonely, the T is tired, and the S is sick. And then the other, I've seen some where they add another S and it's around sort of like sensory needs for people who are neurodivergent. So, just checking in with yourself and others about those things. And right before we recorded this, I was actually texting with a former colleague who called to check in on me. And I said, man, you've got spidey senses. I'm having a hard day. And one of his first questions for me was, have you eaten yet today? And then the second question was, have you gotten a hug? (Aww. Another Age.) A different age. Are you hungry? Do you need a hug? (Yeah, who doesn't?) But it was such a sweet and specific, actually, ask around mental health that I really appreciated. 

Terry [00:21:00] [00:21:00]Mhm. Ethan, and we will link to this, puts out a great newsletter called "Hey Man," and he described it as shoulder to shoulder, saying that it's easier to talk when you're not looking eye to eye, you know, you never can say, and I learned this with a son, we need to talk. [14.3s]

Carly [00:21:15] [00:21:15]Well, you can say it, it just strikes fear into the- [2.3s]

Terry [00:21:17] [00:21:17]Yeah, it's not a good starting place. It is certainly not a good starting place. But if you're in the car, every parent knows that, right? You're in a car traveling and you can't really see each other but you're near each other or as I did with your brother shooting hoops, you know, then you can have conversations that don't feel quite as threatening and he describes it as being shoulder to shoulder. [18.7s]

Carly [00:21:37] [00:21:37]Hmm. I like that too, because it shifts the power differential. Tends to help not get stuck in that sort of flight or freeze response that we can have when it's like, we need to talk. But also we need talk often means we need to sit still and stare into each other's eyes across the table. And it feels very adversarial. So, you know, that, that "Hey Man" tip of shoulder to shoulder, I think is a really useful strategy, probably for everyone. [26.4s]

Terry [00:22:04] Yeah, I thinks so, too. 

Carly [00:22:07] And I do think that sometimes when people suggest that men go to therapy, that there's this sense of you must think there's something wrong with me. 

Terry [00:22:18] Yes, and it's often said that way, right? You say like, dude, you need therapy. 

Carly [00:22:22] Right. And we think that if we just sort of change our tone of voice around it and go, hey, have you ever thought about going to therapy? The voice inside that person's head is still hearing judgment and some sort of condemnation as opposed to like, hey, you seem overwhelmed. 

Terry [00:22:39] Mhm. 

Carly [00:22:40] Do you have people you can talk to? And one thing that I thought was really cool is that in Brooklyn, a group of dads is organizing what they call a "stroll club" for new dads, and they just gather in a park with strollers and walk together. 

Terry [00:22:54] I love that. 

Carly [00:22:55] With their kids. So they don't have to talk about anything. Well, they can talk about anything. And if they need to talk about sleep deprivation tips or sleep training or mental health, that's certainly on the table. But, if not, there's still a sort of visual and embodied reminder that they're not alone. 

Terry [00:23:14] Beautiful. I love that idea and I think I'd like to even drive past it and just be like "Oh, look at you all." I love it. 

Carly [00:23:22] Yeah, so a couple other things in terms of transitions are the end of relationships, underemployment, unemployment, layoffs. Those are also major life transitions that even if you've got your head quote unquote "on straight," those are times that a lot of people need a little more support and therapy is a form of support. 

Terry [00:23:45] [00:23:45]100% and you don't have to be embarrassed. They have heard it before so there's little chance you're going to shock somebody by saying I'm having a really hard time with blank, because people have really hard times with all kinds of things and therapists hear it regularly. I wish more people took advantage of it. It reminds me of that expression that those of us who are in therapy are often in therapy to talk about the people in our lives who won't do therapy. And it's so true, right? [25.9s] It's like, oh my gosh (It's so true!) If you just worked through some of that stuff, it wouldn't impact other people so much. So yeah, interesting. Well, we will link to both Ethan's website, so where you can sign up for his newsletter, and then the sites that he referenced, which were the app Habit Share and Man Therapy. 

Carly [00:24:32] Thanks for having me, Mom. 

Terry [00:24:34] Thank you Carly, I appreciate you stepping up. Anita had big shoes to fill, and it's nice to know that you're willing to jump right into them. We truly hope this discussion helps you better understand your own depression or how to support someone else in your life who lives with it. We invite you to check out the hundreds of other episodes in our archive and to explore both the resource hub and treatment options on recovery.com. Depression is too dark a road to walk alone. We'll be back next week.