Dr. Cari Schaefer: What HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy) Is Not Fixing & Why | #191

Everything you have been told about menopause symptoms being normal and inevitable is incomplete, and Dr. Cari Schaefer is here to blow that wide open. In this episode, Leah and Dr. Willow sit down with their dear friend and functional medicine and Chinese medicine practitioner to draw a hard line between natural menopause and menopausal syndrome, unpack why hormone replacement therapy alone leaves a massive gap in your care, and get honest about the adrenal health, blood sugar regulation, and liver function conversations that should have happened years before your first hot flash. They also get into andropause, testosterone conversion in men, and why the most loving thing you can do for your body right now has nothing to do with hormones at all.

KEY TAKEAWAYS:

• Menopause and menopausal syndrome are not the same thing, and confusing the two is exactly why so many women are still suffering after starting hormone therapy.
• Your adrenal glands become the primary producers of estrogen precursors after menopause, so chronic stress is not just emotional, it is hormonal.
• Hot flashes and night sweats are most often driven by hidden immune stressors like urinary infections and digestive imbalances, not declining hormones alone.
• A liver cleanse at least once a year is one of the most direct things you can do to keep hormones balanced, because your liver has to filter and process every hormone in your body.
• Men convert testosterone into estrogen or DHT under chronic stress, which explains low libido, weight gain, emotional flatness, and erectile changes far better than low testosterone alone.
• Shame around food creates more physiological stress on the liver and gallbladder than the food itself ever could.
• Menopause is not a biological mistake; it is a designed transition into the most powerful role of a woman's life, and the body will not let you access that role while it is running on empty.

LINKS & RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE CAN BE FOUND ON THE WEBSITE: https://www.sexreimagined.com/blog/menopause-symptoms-root-cause 

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Transcript

Menopause With Grace

Willow 1:52

What if menopause was something that we could go through with grace and with ease. Today we've got Dr. Cari, not only just a phenomenal source of wisdom on this topic, but also a dear friend of mine. So I'm very excited to riff with her today'cause we have very similar backgrounds, Chinese medicine and functional medicine and I'm just can't wait for this interview.

Leah 2:17

So you guys tune in, turn on, and fall in love with the beautiful, the wise, the brilliant Dr. Kari.

Announcer 2:24

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame-free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Cari 2:32

Yay.

Leah 2:33

to the show.

Cari 2:35

Oh, so happy to be here, ladies. Yeah. So great. Yeah,

Willow 2:39

So, Kari, you've been in this field for a long time and you've focused in on women's health and, and also men's hormonal health as well. So we'll talk a little bit about both and, um, you recently wrote a book, which I want us to talk about that too.'cause I I love the title of it, the, the Menopause Midwife. Is that the title?

Leah 3:02

Oh, that's a great title.

Cari 3:03

Your Menopause Midwife. Yeah.

Willow 3:04

Great.

Cari 3:05

you know, for so long, menopause was ignored. It was a bad word. We didn't talk about it. Women didn't talk about it, you didn't mention it, and there was just not a lot of support. And actually what's going on right now in the field is the. You know, the, the, the sort of taboo of hormone replacement has been removed from standard medical care, and now every, every doctor you talk to is throwing hormones at women. Um, but it's still missing a big, a big part of it. And so I'm really passionate about women being supported through this process, understanding what's going on in their body through this process so that. It doesn't have to be bumpy. We've got this whole like illusion that symptoms equal menopause and nothing could be further from the truth, right? Nothing could be further from the truth. So,

Willow 3:51

us more about that. Speak a little bit more to that.

Stress And Hormone Pathways

Cari 3:53

Okay, so our bodies are divinely designed to go through menopause. There are four species of mammals that go through menopause. It's not an accident. It's not like, oops. Oh, sorry. I literally got, I literally got into this field of talking about it because I was at a hormone seminar with the, this doctor who was supposed to be the, you know, the doctor on this subject, and she stood around the room and started the talk with, from a biological and anthropological perspective, women are done post menopause. And I was like, oh. What, and then it got worse. Then she went on to say that we should keep women bleeding until they're in their nineties. Um, but then it got worse in that I was talking with a man who put this seminar on and he equated women being that that many species die after, um, giving birth. And so we're sort of lucky that we're still around. And I was like, are you kidding me? I just, I looked at him and I was like. And, um, black widows eat their mates post cotus so are you saying that we should start imitating them too? Like, what, you know, what are we doing? And, and it's, and then I literally just recently, so that was some years ago, recently, another doctor said, well, you know, we, women didn't used to live very long and so this whole thing, and I'm like. No women go, we go through menopause because we're a species that lives longer, and because of that, the, the, the, the, the mature woman serves a biological purpose that the hormones of the fertility years don't serve. We don't need to be producing those high level of hormones anymore. We don't need to be dumping out, you know, losing our blood every month, every anymore. We don't need to be doing that. We need to be doing something else to, to act in this new role. And that new role is the wisdom keeper. Our job is literally to inform our tribe how to continue thriving and surviving. Right. And that's why I love what you guys do because you, you know, I know you do it for all different ages, but you talk about that aspect of thriving in life, keeping that our vitality, our creativity, our creative centers alive. And so much of the conversation is like. Oh, menopause hot flashes, wrinkled, getting ignored. You know that whole story. And I'm like, no, that's an imbalance during menopause. That's called menopausal syndrome. And if you'll bear with me for one second,'cause this, this is a point that I just think when I saw it, it was like one of those big ahas, you know, our hormones, I wasn't taught in school will, I don't know if you were where our hormones get produced post menopause. So I. I didn't know that. I wasn't taught that in

Leah 6:43

though I do wanna say there are people who refute that re refute that. That it's not that the adrenals don't do that much production that does a little bit, but not a ton.

Cari 6:55

but post, so post menopause. What happens though is the adrenals don't produce hormones. They produce the precursor to your hormones. And they're always doing that proje for progesterone. They're always making the precursor for progesterone throughout, and that's where stress can really play a role in, in perimenopause and in earlier days around our hormone cycle. But now we're in menopause and our adrenals are producing the, they are the only producer of the precursor to estrogen. And so if they're stressed out, they're, they're dealing with the survival things. The things that are like, oh my gosh, this is an emergency. I'm gonna die if this doesn't get handled. That's what your adrenals, um, prioritize. Body's always prioritizing towards survival, hormone production, immune function. All of that comes kinda.

Willow 7:42

Yeah.

Cari 7:42

It's secondary, and so that that production, the resources go towards those things needed for survival. So if we're stressed out, we're not gonna be making those precursors in a robust amount. And that that conversion to estrogen is not gonna happen to its full potential for this phase of life, which is yeah, a lot less estrogen, but we're supposed to have less estrogen.

Menopause Versus Syndrome

Leah 8:06

Okay, so let me recap. Do you mind real quick? Uh, will, so, all right. What I hear you saying is that there's a big gap. There's a gap between what we are doing right now in modern times around perimenopause and menopause. We, there was years and decades and generations where it was ignored and women suffered in silence. Now we're starting to take a look at, you know, the big buzz is hormone replacement therapy. And we're taking a look at symptoms and when we're asking the questions, when exactly am I supposed to get support? Is it when I have symptoms? A lot of doctors say, we don't do anything until you get symptoms. And there's a whole school of thought that said you need to take care of your bones, your tissues, your muscles, and all your brain fog and all these things that are coming your way way sooner before you start having symptoms of it. But what I hear you saying is that there's a gap, and that gap has to do with the sacred spiritual wisdom significance that comes with us getting older and tapping into the initiation of womanhood where there's something, there's a conversation that needs to be had that is way deeper, way more significant that allows us, I mean, I love that the word menopause has the word pause in it. Because I think there's this moment where this is a gift. We get to take a pause, reflect on our life's journey, reflect on everything that we've gathered from the blessings to overcoming obstacles, allow that to fully maturate. And to collect the wisdom and the insight and the years of experience that we've cultivated and sit with that for a moment, have some appreciation, be in sacred circles where we get to talk about what that means to us, and then step into a new role for maybe a younger generation. Or maybe the generation that we're interacting with who may be older than us, who may be the same age, going through the same things, and like, how can we have a different community around these wisdom years that we get to initiate into? I mean, this is my spin on it because I, I actually feel like there's a, a big gap there,

Cari 10:09

I do, and I love it, Leah. But IW I'll say this, I was having a conversation with this woman, um, she's actually a saw dude, uh, you know, where's the red robe? She's second in charge of an ashram in India. And I was having a conversation with her around it, and I, and my husband chimed in and goes, oh, you know, tell her, tell her, you know, your, your take on this. And, and at the time I was calling it Wise Woman emerging, and she, she looked at me and she said, you know, Kari, when I was hot, flashing like crazy, I could care less about my wise woman, and here's a woman who, that's what she is. She's a wise woman, right? That's her role. And so there is, I agree with that. Conversation has to come, but when a woman is suffering, which happens in 70 to 75% of the women in, in our culture, they go through symptoms. It's rare that women don't, we gotta get them comfortable first. And so before we have this other conversation, which I'm jamming on, I love and I wanna have, I just wanna make one like leap for women, and which is that you, if your body is under stress, it's prioritizing taking care of that instead of producing the hormones so your hormone levels drop low for this phase of life. That's not menopause. That's menopausal syndrome. That's an imbalanced state. And where, where we get into the wisdom of this that I love is that the, the, the body is so wise that we cannot do well at our role as the, in this, as a wise woman if we're running around like chickens with her head cut off in a chronic stress state, our body's like, yeah,

Leah 11:44

have

Cari 11:45

you can't do, yeah, you will not access your wisdom. So it's literally like the universe and the whatever the creator created us in a way that says. You're gonna step into this role. You have to embody it to step into it.

Leah 11:57

Okay, so a another distinction question and then I'll hand it over to Willow. Willow, thanks for being so patient. Um, is, when you say menopausal syndrome and menopause, what's the difference between the two?

Cari 12:10

So menopause. As we we go through this natural transition, our ovaries stop producing hormones. Our adrenals take over this bigger role. Our, our estrogen starts getting made in our fat, our our menses stops. That's menopause. Normal body knows how to do it. The amount of hormones we have goes down'cause we don't need all those hormones to make ourselves bleed every month to prepare for a baby. We don't need it anymore. Totally normal. There are many women that go through this transition completely symptom free. When the body is under stress, when it's having trouble producing enough hormones through this new hormonal production system, we get symptoms. That's menopausal syndrome. So now we have this combination of stress on the body plus low hormones, which makes our symptoms so much more intense. And so the hormone piece gets all the attention.'cause sure you take hormones, you feel a little better, but it does not address the stress on the system. And if that stays, we stay in a degenerative, a premature aging breakdown process. Right. And we don't even utilize our hormones well because our, our body's too stressed out to break them down properly and utilize them well. So it leaves, leaves us in a stress state. So I'm always like, yeah, hormone replacement. Okay, yeah, maybe. But we gotta back up, we gotta look at how your adrenals are doing and we gotta back up even further and look at what's stressing your system out in the first place when we do that. The other two are, are gravy. But if we don't do that, the other two are kind of like a little bit of icing on top. That might help a little, but they don't get to the root of it. Right. And when we get to the root of it, now we can have the conversation you're talking about having.

Leah 13:53

Okay, great.

Cari 13:54

yeah.

Willow 13:54

And I think you know a lot of the stressors that. We don't think of as stressors that we do have control over. Like of course, like if a family member dies, that's stressful. If you have to move, that's stressful. Getting divorced, that's stressful. Like these things happen in life and yes, they tax your adrenals and your hormones don't work as well. But, um. You know, diet. If we look at diet number one stressor. If we look at exogenous hormones coming from soaps, detergents, liquids, all we have to do is look around our house and we can clean up a pretty significant and easy to clean up layer of stress that our body is taking in consistently.

Cari 14:39

Or you know, that chronic digestive thing that makes you eat only these certain foods or eat less food because otherwise you get bloated, blah, blah, blah. That's a stressor, ladies, and that's going to, you know, be taxing the adrenal system. So yes, absolutely. I will tell you with hot flashes, the majority of women that I work with who have hot flashes. It's an immune hidden immune challenge. Majority of time, often in the urinary system from years of having bladder infections or whatever, and it's been lingering or maybe it's a digestive, like a parasite woman would come in and she wicked night sweats and couldn't sleep. It was a parasite. I had a woman who didn't sleep for a year because she had such horrible night sweats. Within four days of starting some stuff to clean up her urinary system, her night sweats were gone. So it's that compounding stressor. That is driving that imbalance, that's heating us up and making those symptoms worse. And again, if we just take the hormones, then we also have to take a, a lot more hormones to try to balance out the system and that it has its own factors, you know, that that can be tricky on the body. So yes, I'd love that you brought that in. So important.

Willow 15:52

Yeah. I mean, healing your adrenals is, um. In my mind and in my world, it's kind of like something you always keep your finger on the pulse of. You know, it's, it's, it's, I'm always monitoring, you know, like, how early do I wanna go to bed? How early do I wanna get up? Do I wanna take these supplements today? Do I wanna eat that food today? I mean,'cause I'm, you know, I'm, I have the knowledge of all of that. But I think, um, you know, even doing meditation, breath work, yoga, walking slowly, walking in the park, I mean, most. A lot of people, I don't know if most is the right word, but many people are running at a parasympathetic dominant state, which means you're always on fight or flight. Like even when there's nothing going on, you're kind of breathing shallow

Cari 16:41

Mm-hmm.

Simple Stress Fixes

Willow 16:42

and doing this and that. Those, those practices, you know, to deepen your breath, to slow down your mind to, to get out of the idea that you have any fucking control. You know, a lot of it is just perspective shift and you know, Dr. Kari is. So recently certified in, um, Joe Dispenza work, which, you know, for those of you who are familiar with that work is, is largely about like getting out of our persona and getting into the spaciousness of the all, like, which just basically means, you know, letting go of control. Letting go of your identity, your ego,'cause all of these things, if you. Think about them. They create, if you, well, if you not just think about them, but feel into them they create this contraction inside of you, right? It's like, okay, I'm Dr. Willow. I have to pro produce a podcast. I have to get all these things done for the next summit. I have to da, da, da. I have to. I have to. I have to. I have to. And my nervous system goes, constriction. Constriction. Stress, stress, stress.

Cari 19:06

And wind up. Wind up. Wind up.

Willow 19:08

up. But if I remove all of that and change the perspective, and I'm like. Okay. I'm just floating through time and space as a being and I get to offer these things. I get to do these things. I, I'm so lucky that I get to, you know, produce and create in this world. That's a total, my nervous system expands and opens. So Leah and I do talk about that a lot on our podcast to like, what opens you and what closes you. And I think just that simple thing is gonna start to change your adrenal picture.

Cari 19:43

A hundred percent. You know, I have to say in my years I was on a long health journey and my years of micromanage. I'm not saying that diet is important. I wrote a book on diet, right? It's an important foundation. You have to be getting nutrient dense food in. But I micromanage my diet for years in hopes that that was gonna fix things. And then there's the supplements and look's. Supplements. What I always, what I tell people is like, supplements are really great while we're figuring it out. They're really great at supporting these bodies, right? Because otherwise the body just gets beat up by whatever we're, you know, imbalance we're in. But then what's behind, what dictates the food choices we make or what time we go to bed or what, it's that, that is those internal programs. Those internal subconscious thought processes that we go through every day and starting to become aware of what's our drivers, right? Am I, I'm not enough, so I have to go, go, go. I have to prove myself. I'm not this, I'm, there's something wrong with me, so I have to fix myself. And so yeah, you can do all of that, but if you don't get to the drivers, then you're, you're in a vicious loop. So I love that you brought that in.

Food Timing And Acupuncture

Leah 20:48

I mean, it's interesting as I'm listening to you both speak, and I'm like, oh fuck, now I'm stressed out. I gotta deal with plastics and I gotta change my detergent, and I gotta clean up my fucking diet. You know? Sometimes I just need to have something sweet and salty and fried there's this total reaction of like, oh my God, that is so fucking overwhelming. Talk about a cortisol dump. I'm feeling it right now. So what is something simple? That isn't super time consuming when you've got women who are maybe at the peak of their career and they've got, they're worried about money'cause they've got three kids they gotta put through college. I mean, we're talking about a very interesting age where we're not quite at retirement, where we get to start dipping into our savings. And now retirement years are, are even in the seventies. They're no longer just 64 and 65. So, yes, perspective shift is everything. So as I was listening, I was like feeling this sense of like, oh, this is like an uphill battle. I'm not gonna win. Um, then I was like, oh, well, okay, here's a moment to change perspective. You don't have to do it all at once. It's a journey. What if it were actually an adventure? What if it was something that was like connected to something a lot more deeper inside of you that was inspiring and not necessarily taxing, and you didn't have to do it all at once. You could do, you could you could make it small little changes.

Willow 22:05

don't. Yeah.

Cari 22:06

Yeah, right. It's about decreasing stress. So if you're doing it from a perspective of, of stress, you're, that's not actually helpful. How you eat those french fries matters a lot. You eating those french fries, feeling guilty about it, it's actually creating more constriction in your liver and your gallbladder, which have to deal with the, the fried oils, which, yeah, no, they're not great for us. But once in a while, if we have some french fries

Willow 22:31

If you are eating those french fries,

Cari 22:33

Exactly.

Willow 22:35

amazing on.

Leah 22:37

Yeah.

Cari 22:39

Exactly.

Leah 22:41

Yeah.

Cari 22:42

Yeah. Exactly. So you bless those french fries, you give thanks for the potatoes, you all of that. That's gonna go a long way if you're eating with shame and guilt, not, you know, the shame and guilt is way worse for us than the french fry would ever be. Right. So if you're, if you're eating the french fry because you're having a bad day and you're not feeling good, and eh, that actually isn't good. But if you're in a place of joy and you're feeling good and you're having a celebration of food, go, you know, and I life should be luscious. It's not about life being restrictive, it's

Leah 23:15

And it should be balanced. Yeah. It doesn't mean, yeah. Restriction I think is a very dangerous road to take. Yeah.

Willow 23:23

on the body too, you know. Um, so you asked what are some simple things that people can do? One very simple thing that you can do is before you do start eating, take three deep breath. Very simple. Another very simple thing that people can start doing is drinking more water, drinking. Nobody drinks enough water throughout the day. Um, so that very simple thing is going to support all your systems in your bodies, including your adrenal.

Cari 23:55

I do wanna say, because I do meet a lot of people, women who actually over drink, which depletes minerals. So, so we can overdo, we don't wanna be doing like, you know, a gallon plus water a day. I, I tell women, depending on your size and your weight, that eight to 10 cups of a day, or if you're really petite, maybe six to, you know, eight, but much more than 10. Now we start to deplete minerals. So I am a little bit cautious about that. Will I have seen some women who come in with their like, you know, oh, I drink this much water a day.

Willow 24:24

Santa Barbara, California. I would say the majority of people in in the United States are not drinking enough water.

Cari 24:31

true. That's true. And then the one thing that I really know makes a difference, this was part of my picture, so I had, uh protracted adrenal exhaustion that I just couldn't fix. And it wasn't until I learned about the principles of blood sugar regulation and how taxing it is on the body when our blood sugar drops low and, and how that puts us in a full blown stress response. And I will tell you the majority of anxiety cases that I see, it's actually a low blood sugar issue for the, like they're going into anxiety because their body is thinking they're running into a crisis of blood sugar. And not all of them, but a large majority, it's playing a role. I had a I, I have people do what's called A-C-G-M-A, A continuous glucose monitor, and I had this one client who was experiencing anxiety perimenopausal, and she just didn't wanna do it. She didn't, and then she finally did it, and she's on the call with me and she started to cry and she said, thank you so much for having me do this, because I'm now understanding what my body is telling me, and it's been starving. And,

Leah 25:29

Wow.

Cari 25:29

know, yeah. And it just like, oh, you know, the tears. Um, so keeping, so keeping it simple, just eating, you know, small meals more often rather than one, you know, the idea like, oh, I didn't eat all day so I can have this huge meal. Women don't, um, often aren't educated about the fact that it's calories in a meal that are important, not calories in a day. So if you eat a thousand calories at one meal, you're gonna make fat.

Leah 25:58

Hmm.

Cari 25:58

gonna make fat. Your body's gonna store the extra glucose as fat. And so here you starved yourself all day and you overeat and your body and you get, you ga you gain more fat. And that's certainly not what many women are trying to do, right?

Leah 26:10

You know, my.

Willow 26:11

Oh go ahead, Leah.

Leah 26:13

My husband is intermittent fasting right now, and he always loves it when we do things together, I'm like, eh, I've, I've done a little bit of it, but I get hangry. You know, like I get a surge of, um, discontent. Uh, yeah. So I was gonna ask you, what do you think about intermittent fasting for women, considering what you just shared around oftentimes we have one big meal and we're not really taking care of our blood sugar.

Cari 26:36

I think it's a nightmare for this, particularly this phase of life, and, and, and the, and I've seen it, I've seen intermittent fasts and I've done adrenal panels on there, and their adrenals are just in, they're just exhausted because they, they're constantly trying and they're doing it with not enough nutrition. Right. We eat to give our body the glucose it needs, unless you're in a ketogenic diet, whole other subject. But the glucose it needs and the nutrients it needs to run itself. That's why we eat. We don't eat for, I mean, yes it can be pleasurable, but we don't eat, you know, just what, because it has a function. And so if we're not eating the way that supplies that function, we're putting the body in a stress state and that chronic stress state taxes, that that system and um, really throws things off.

Willow 27:19

What are your thoughts on, um, like more carb heavy toward the end of the day? Uh, there is a, a popular, uh, book out, I forget the name of the author, but she's big in the menopause and adrenal functional medicine world. Um, and it, it, it talks about, you know, eating proteins and fat. And, you know, vegetables earlier on in the day. And then toward the end of the day, having, you know, healthy carbs like brown rice or whatever, quinoa, something along those lines

Cari 27:54

So I know,

Willow 27:55

of help you sleep better,

Cari 27:57

I know for me, if I don't eat protein at night, I sleep better. And that's actually counter, like even the blood sugar regulation training I had, it was eat protein right before bed. And sometimes that I will have people do a little bit, but like sitting down to a big heavy protein meal, I find for me, I, it's, I wake up in the middle of the night.

Willow 28:18

digest.

Moxa for Adrenal Recharge

Cari 28:19

Too much for my liver to deal with. So if I'm doing it, you know, more of a vegetarian based protein idea, a, a, a legume and a grain, you know, that kind of thing at night, um, and just making my lunch, my big meal and my dinner a lighter meal, I actually find that I do better. Now if we're going through adrenal repair, sometimes I will give people protein right before bed. If you wake in the middle of the night, do a little carb protein. I will sometimes for repair purposes do that, but as a general rule, I find I sleep better without the the heavy protein meal at night.

Willow 28:51

Mm-hmm. Interesting. Yeah,

Leah 28:53

Y you know, I, um, I had a adrenal fatigue about 12 years ago, and the prescription that I got was basically like protein every two hours. And,

Cari 29:04

God. We just

Leah 29:05

And then a, ton of supplements. The supplements really didn't help me. And I actually, I actually went into some negative, um, food relationship stuff, trying to get that protein because I was so stressed and exhausted I was going towards comfort food. So I was eating like a cheeseburger every two hours. Like really just no bun, but a cheeseburger.

Cari 29:29

Yeah, probably.

Leah 29:30

not

Cari 29:30

Yeah.

Leah 29:31

The wisest thing to do, but I'm a comfort eater, you know, so like, if you wanna change, the quickest way to change my state when I'm stressed and overwhelmed is to put something in my mouth because the chemical reaction is so fast. And so that was always my go-to it's, anyways, the thing that helped them most during my adrenal fatigue was going to, um, an acupuncture clinic. And they would let me put, they'd put the needles in, I put an eye mask on and they would let me just sleep there for hours with the needles in. And I went like every single day for like three months. and it com it changed my life. And it was one of those community clinics, so, you know, they were giving acupuncture to people all in one room. the lights were dim and they'd gong music playing. And, um, it wasn't like I was taking up a treatment room, but it was amazing. The best thing I could have done for my adrenals was acupuncture. And you're both acupuncturists.

Cari 30:24

We are. Yeah. I go to like, and I want curious about you. Will I go like, needles in't too long? Can be a little draining. What, when did you, did you Yeah, but I mean, it works for you, which is great, but I, I, I, I, that's one thing, like, for me, when my adrenals were weak, I would be on the table and I would start pulling my needles.'cause I was like, I'm done. You know, they're off in the other room, whatever. And they'd walk in, all the needles would be out there. Like, what? And I was like, I was done. My body was like done.

Willow 30:51

So funny. Yeah. I mean, I think every body is different. That's part of the

Cari 30:55

was another story. So

Perimenopause Symptoms and HRT

Willow 30:56

that's part of the beauty of how Chinese medicine looks at every body. We're really looking at the foundation. We're, we're tuning into the nervous system. We're taking the pulse, we're checking the tongue, what's going on in the gut. We can see that on the, the tongue. You know, we can see what's happening inside the body through these subtle, um, things that we open our senses too. So we have to become more attuned. We have to become more sensitive as Chinese medicine doctors. One of the things that, I mean, I wish I could just do this for everyone on the planet, is moxa their kidneys. moxa their adrenal glands.'Cause I've used moxa to restore. moxa is Chinese mug wart. So it comes in like a, a long tube and um, like a big cigar, looks like a big cigar, and you light the end and so it's got a little cherry on the end and you just hold that warm cherry of heat right next to the points of the kidneys and the adrenals on the lower back, and also some points along the legs to restore just Chi and vitality. And I mean. Time and time again, I feel like, you know, people come in like a withered plant that hasn't been tended to in about three weeks and like just a thirsty plant and they leave and they're just like, wow, I got watered. You know? And they just have so much more energy coming through their eyes. I've been, I really, um, got the, the magnitude of how powerful moxa is as a healing modality. When I was working with Raven Lang, who. Was in Santa Cruz. I apprenticed with her for about a year and she was a midwife speaking of midwife in your own body. And so she was a midwife for a long time and she also trained and studied with Miriam Lee, who was the original, like Chinese medicine doctor who got acupuncture as a licensed thing in California. And Miriam was a, um. She was a midwife in China, so, but she couldn't practice midwifery in the States, but Raven could. So Raven was working with Miriam and she would always have Raven like. She, people would, uh, Miriam Lee worked in San Francisco. She would have people lined up around the corner to come into her office to see her people who were like dying of AIDS, cancer, like severe, severe depletion and deficiency. And she would have Raven put these pots of moxa burning the smoke under, like loose moxa burning underneath a chair. And she would put the patient on the chair with like holes in the chair, you know, and then put a blanket around them. So they just got basically like bathed in moxa and it would heal. You know, those like, um.

Leah 33:55

Moxa sauna.

Andropause and Hormone Shifts

Willow 33:55

Yeah, moxa sauna, you know, those like the AIDS patients would get the sarcomas, you know, those would disappear. Like they would just radically go away. So when I apprenticed with Raven for a year, I mean, she was just so big on moxa Plus she was doing a lot of postpartum care. So talk about adrenal, you know, shrinking. Um, and always we would always, um, bathe the adrenals. In moxa, we called it Mother Roast. Sting, you know, it's like a, a tradition actually that goes into all these different, um, all these different tribal traditions. So yeah. But if you have an acupuncturist out there, make sure they're mocking your adrenals if you know that that's part of the hormonal imbalance. Yeah.

Cari 34:43

yeah. moxa, it burns at a very specific temperature that, um, you can't just burn anything. It burns at a very specific temperature that puts heat in at a level that doesn't dry out the tissue. So it's very, it's very specific in its

Leah 34:56

Nuanced. Um, you know, one of the big things I'm concerned about as I'm going through perimenopause is my bone health. Um, I've got a case, a small case of osteopenia.

Cari 35:08

Mm-hmm.

Leah 35:09

In my spine and in my hips, and I wanna reverse that. Also. Brain fog has been probably the predominant struggle that I'm experiencing, um, and keeping my muscles. And so, I mean, there's going to the gym, I know that's the biggest intervention I can do for my bones and my muscles at least that I'm aware of. So how does this all relate to some of the symptoms I'm experiencing? Uh, because I do feel the need to, um, take a look at hormone replacement therapy. I also wanna stay young. I want my vagina to be strong and healthy and lifted and plump. I don't wanna go through tearing, I don't wanna go through dryness. Uh, that would be my preference. So sometimes I'm like this all natural thing, eh? Yeah, maybe.

Cari 35:54

hormone replacement and I, and I, you know what,

Willow 35:57

She's not saying don't do

Cari 35:58

I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying don't stop there because it's, you know, what, what's getting in the way of your body? Now, it may have been a long-term health, that's why I needed it long-term health thing that my adrenals are just, I, you know, they're just not as robust as they could be. Even still. Because of, I, I had a, a, you know, chronic ly blah, blah, blah, blah. For. Undiagnosed. But, but when we, when we look at bone health, yes, there's a hormonal piece, but you also, your, your, your calcium in your bones is your storage depot. Its your savings account that every time your body goes into a state of acidity in your blood, your blood is maintained at 7.2 pH. Really, really, really, it can't. If you go off of that, you're really sick. And, and if you don't have from your diet, from your digestion, from your absorption, the nutrients, the body needs to do that. It takes it from your bones. And so I call it living in the red. So whenever we're looking at osteopenia or osteoporosis, we're looking at a a, a case of the body living in the red. And so we wanna get out of our savings account. Right. And we wanna get back into, de into depositing back in, back into the black. And so we look at deeper things like dietary choices, but then, and then really important digestive choices. How is our digestion, how are we breaking it down and, and absorbing it?

Leah 37:22

Gotcha. Now, what about men in this conversation? Where do we start talking about, because it's always so focused, women in menopause. Women in menopause, but the conversation doesn't go very far when it talks about men and their cycles. Most people don't know the word andropause. In fact, I never even heard of the word andropause until about two years ago. So what, what, how do they filter into this conversation?

Clean the Filter Liver Reset

Cari 37:47

Well, men aren't changing. Like we're changing. We are changing. Or the way we produce hormones. Men don't do that. They stays extensively, they stay fertile for their whole life. Who was the actor recently that had a baby at like 80 or something? Right? I mean, anyway, I'm not saying it's ideal, but extensively. You know, the sperm iss probably not the most vital, but extensively they say fertile. But what happens for men? Is their, their testosterone production could go down. But what I see even more than that is men will start to convert their testosterone into either estrogen or into dihydro testosterone. D-H-T. D-H-T is like a, a testosterone on steroids. It's like a supercharge from a testosterone, and it causes men to lose their hair. It causes them to develop hyperplasia in their prostate. It, there's, there's health implications of having too much DHT in the system, and I look at it as like somebody who's like in such a push that they're having to, you know, they're, they're like pushing themselves into like go mode when their system. It, it, you know, because their system actually needs to kind of slow down, you know, they're going hyper. And the other thing that men do is they convert when they're in a stress aid is they convert their testosterone to estrogen. And you know, when men's nipple start to protrude or they get little, we call them moobs. Um, I see it young men all the time. I'm like, oh my God, can I please just get my hands on this person? Because it will cause the erectile issues. It the penis will shrink in size if it ha if it happens enough. They'll get more feminine in their behavior. They, they literally did a study with young boys that were being exposed to, you had mentioned xenoestrogens, you didn't use that word, but chemicals that act like estrogens. Little boys that get exposed to normal amounts of plastics.'cause plastics carry, um, uh, soft plastics have a chemical, like water bottles have a chemical on them called phalates that are a xenoestrogen. Uh, in little boys they're more eff and they have smaller penis sizes than their predecessors from y you know, years gone by. They literally did this study. So we're estrogen. Um, you know, men are getting estrogenized and when men have too much estrogen, they get, they get fleshy, they work out. No matter how much they work out, they're, you know, they're, they're, they're just fleshy. They wanna sit on the sofa and do this with the remote. They just lose their verve for life. And there's a couple of interesting things around this that, that I I'll say, which is one is, um, they've done a, they did a study which showed that women who nag their men, causes them to create, turn their testosterone into estrogen.

Leah 40:25

Wow.

Willow 40:26

That's hilarious.

Cari 40:27

literally like, took testosterone and then had a woman and, and then, you know, tested and like it, it started converting. Isn't that interesting? So we, you know. Yeah. And when men are in a, they've also studied that when men are in a, like when they've got, when they're working with something, if you sit them down and make them talk to you, it's actually the worst thing for them. That that's when they start converting. They need to go, they need to go do, they gotta go like do something like go

Leah 40:53

saying

Willow 40:54

Go for a bike ride. Go for a run.

Cari 40:57

Yes, exactly. Have the talk on a walk. It's not that we, you can't talk or they don't. It's just that in the moment when they're in it

Willow 41:05

Or go get that energy out and then come back

Cari 41:08

That can talk about it. Exactly. Yeah. And so men go through this transition and then what happens is they go to a doctor who looks at their testosterone, which looks low, and then they put'em on testosterone replacement. And initially they feel great, and then they just, they take, because now they're converting more testosterone and estrogen and it's just a vicious

Willow 41:29

so that really. Yeah. And that really points to what you were saying when we were talking about women is like, it's not just about, you know, adding more, adding more something exogenous to the pool. I always use this, um, analogy anytime I'm explaining things to people about, you know, resetting their system, it's like, let's start with a liver cleanse. You know, because basically you have a big pool of dirty water, and we don't wanna just put more chemicals into that water. We need to clean the filter, right? So we need to do a liver cleanse. Your liver is your filter for all the blood in your body, and sometimes we need to do a couple of liver cleanses. I mean, one of the number one things you can do to keep your hormones balanced and regulated is a liver cleanse at least once a year and keep your blood sugar regulated. Those two things will make a huge difference. Um, but yeah, that's fascinating that, you know, just for, for men to like go move their, I mean, I feel like I wanna go move my body. I don't wanna sit and have a conversation, you know, about something heavy and like, ooh, like close my nervous system down unless I've gone and like moved some energy first.

Cari 42:44

Well you've got a lot of, you've got that. You've got that vitality Willow.

Willow 42:47

I've got that thing going.

Leah 42:50

Well, when, when you think about how triggered we get in, um, difficult conversations, you know, we get tight, we get revved up, we get angry, we our ability to listen, um, short circuits. When our heart rate starts to, um, go up because we're getting triggered. So it actually makes a lot of sense if you're gonna have a difficult conversation to, to move your body while you're having it so that you can, um, regulate the intensity that starts to rise when you hear something that's difficult to hear.

Cari 43:22

Yeah, and then you don't, you don't contract around it, and then it gets stuck in your body, in your bowels, you know, like you are having trouble

Willow 43:30

thinking too, like for men, there's probably this feeling of like they're being reprimanded. Like they go back into their little boy. You know, which is like, they didn't have

Leah 43:40

disappointed mom.

Willow 43:41

when they were the little boy, you know? So it's interesting that it converts into a more feminine hormone when they psychologically go back into that little boy.

Leah 43:54

Yeah. I dunno if it's a gender thing. I know when my husband wants to have a serious talk, I go into feeling reprimanded too.

Willow 44:01

you, do you, little girl.

Leah 44:03

any direction. Yeah. It's just like, you know, I.

Cari 44:06

Yeah.

Willow 44:07

But for them.

The Dish with Leah & Dr. Willow

Cari 44:08

yeah. It's interesting. My husband and I talk about this a lot where, um, the, the. The where, you know, what's happening right now in the dynamic between men and women, and right now there's a lot of, um. You know, a lot of focus on the patriarchy and, and what can happen often is that is masculine is thrown into that pool. Right. And what, what women, so we we're in this conversation a lot and what women can tend to do with their mate is they can talk, they can in not meaning. Not meaning to put them down. Or focus on what isn't working or what they want them to do. And when, what that does for a man is they literally, like you guys were talking about, they just deflate and when they deflate, they start converting and then they stop trying to please because it feels like they never can. It's like that basic nature. They, you know, and we're talking in, in heterosexual relationship, right? But very often. A man wants to please his mate. That's like what they wanna do. You know, they're actually biologically programmed to do that, to take care in that way. And then we come in with a lot of negative and they just, and then they're, and then they check out and then we're like, oh, well they never do this or that, or we were

Willow 45:28

And it's a vicious cycle. Like it goes down and down and out. I know your husband is amazing. Love your husband.

Cari 45:34

But, um, but just know on the libido subject, I did give you guys a link to. Uh,

Leah 45:40

Yes, your free

Cari 45:41

that, yeah, it's just, it's a, a 15 minute, uh, audio where I talk about my take on libido and then, uh, and then a little ebook with it for women. So we didn't get to have the conversation so they can, they can get that and look

Leah 45:54

And how

Cari 45:55

there. But

Leah 45:55

how can people find you? What's your website?

Cari 45:58

www.drkariforhealth.com

Leah 46:00

Great. And so everyone please buy your menopause midwife.

Cari 46:04

it's not available yet, so what they can do is they can go, they can do one or two things if they wanted to. Do you, does anything go out with this, with information or is it just the listening? Because if you,

Leah 46:16

there'll be, everything will be in the show notes.

Cari 46:17

Okay. In the show notes, if you can put in my, my phone number, the office phone number, they can just text the office and say, book. And then we'll put them on the list. And as the book gets closer and closer, it's with the publisher now we'll start, we'll send'em out texts where they can, you know, buy their, their copy or sign up for the precopy or whatever.

Leah 46:37

Okay, so they'll be the first to find

Cari 46:39

They'll be the first to find out.

Leah 46:41

Awesome. Awesome.

Cari 46:42

yeah, yeah. Or if they wanna, they can just go to my website, sign up for my newsletter and thing, and which I don't send out very often people. Um, and they'll get notices around the book coming out, so

Leah 46:54

okay. So have no fear. Your inbox will not be flooded,

Cari 46:58

it will not be, but

Leah 47:00

at the right

Cari 47:01

Exactly.

Leah 47:03

Thank you so much for this really balanced conversation. I think what you brought to the table is really helpful to, for us to continue, you know, all this hot topic of menopause and

Cari 47:13

LA thank you ladies for having me. It's so fun. Yeah. I love seeing you. Anyway. Till next time.

Leah 47:21

Ciao. Okay, friends, the show's not over. Up next, it's the dish. Please stay tuned.

47:28

Now our favorite part, the dish.

Leah 47:31

Well, you guys have really chosen, I think, a fascinating career, and one of the things that I admire a lot about you both is your capacity to take this ancient wisdom and really live it, you know, to be able to take a look at your surroundings, take a look at what you choose to put in your body, how you manage to take time out to be in nature, to restore yourself. All of this fascinating, holistic inner workings of your lifestyle. Is so supported by what you do for a living. I, I just have a lot of admiration for it. There's a real, um, rebellious part, uh, that I have a part that's very rebellious and doesn't like to be told what to do. Um, and, and really resists sometimes doing things that are really good for me and I'm starting to tackle that a little bit differently. Um, interestingly enough, during perimenopause, like I'm trying to be more influenceable and I've been reading this book, um, uh, atomic Habits, and it's really helping me take a look at like, stop being such a petulant. Teenager around some of this stuff. Like I've heard you talk about a goddamn liver cleanse, how many umping times? And today was like, really the first time I, well maybe it was the second or third time actually, if I'm being honest, where I'm like, I really gotta do that. You know, where can I stop being, stop making it seem like, like it's so fucking difficult. It's not difficult. And do it for your beautiful body. My God. Do the things that are gonna help you thrive. Why are you resisting it so hard? You know, as if everyone's out there trying to be the boss of me. so fucked up. I feel like such a child, you know? It's like, okay, let's mature this part a little bit.

Willow 49:23

Oh my God. That's great. Yeah. Atomic Habits is a good book for that. That's great. Um, yeah, I mean, it's, it's a personal choice always, you know, like what you choose to do each day and each moment of each day. So I. It's, I think sometimes for me, I wish I didn't have all the knowledge and all the wisdom. You know, it's like, can I just be like,

Leah 49:48

Just take a break from

Willow 49:49

walk through life a little bit more? Duh. You know, but it's just never gonna happen for me. Um, yeah. because it can feel like a big responsibility, you know, which is exactly what you're speaking to. It's like God.

Leah 50:01

doesn't seem fun. I think that's the other thing is like, there's a mindset I think that needs to be retooled in my system where it's like, it sounds like drudgery. It doesn't sound like fun. It sounds hard, it sounds like it tastes disgusting and um, you know, like it takes too much time. I'll be set up to fail. I won't be good at it. I don't wanna do shit I'm not good at. You know, so it's like there's that, there's that line where I think the mindset shift is like the most powerful thing we can first tackle when we wanna tackle something that we feel challenged by or resistant with.

Willow 50:38

Yeah. Yeah. And I think when you start to just weave these little things into your day and into your lifestyle, it, it, it's, it's not even a question of is it fun or not? Like there's, it doesn't, it's what, what's fun is you feel better, you know what's. What's fun is you have more energy, more vitality, you sleep better.

Leah 50:58

right. You feel stronger and

Willow 51:01

fog is gone. Like, you know, you just can think better. You're more articulate. Like, it's just, you feel like you're on top of your game and that's fun, you know? That feels like, so for me it's like, you know, I just. Wake up in the morning. I do my little bit of breath work. I do, I just started doing a new thing, which is a course in Miracles.

Leah 51:23

I love the course of miracles. Yeah.

Willow 51:25

Uh, yeah. I mean, I have always wanted to get into a Course in Miracles, but It's just always been like such a, it is to read it, it's a, what the

Leah 51:35

not an easy read.

Willow 51:36

Yeah. It's not an easy read. And so, and then, you know, I've never made it to the, you used to go to a class in Santa

Leah 51:43

they're, yeah, you can do online

Willow 51:44

never made it to that. There's one here in Santa Barbara. I don't know if I'll go to that, but just like doing the simple little morning practices through the workbook, literally it takes three to five minutes. It doesn't take that long. The other thing I'm trying to bring in is playing my hand pan every morning, you know? So it's like, okay. It does feel like a discipline in the beginning, you know? But if I put, play the hand pan for five to 10 minutes every single morning before I go for my, you know, dog walk, then pretty soon I'm gonna be so much better at the hand pan and it's gonna be so much more fun to play. So there's, there's the discipline leads to more fun.

Leah 52:25

yeah.

Willow 52:26

And. you can think about it as like devotion rather than discipline

Leah 52:30

I think too, like building a reward around it is a really important biohack and then habit stacking. You know, there's habits, there's habits you wanna create, and then there's habits you should create and how can you create a reward system so you get the feel good feeling, you know, I've been doing that with morning vitamins and

Willow 52:49

yeah. You're doing better with your supplements. Yeah,

Leah 52:52

Yeah, and getting to the gym earlier and the consistency and giving myself, you know, a reward and, and then noticing, being very aware, practicing a lot of body awareness of how does my day change when I shift the time that I do something. How does the rest of the day go? How do things function or work better? And if they don't work better? Okay, great. Let's make another shift. Um, I think sort of having that embodied awareness is really interesting. Sometimes I think, you know, just to go back to Kari's episode. Um, you know, I sometimes think like, uh, is the adrenals, is that just too simple of an answer? You know? Um, there's, I create a little, there's a little bit of doubt, um, in me that goes, I don't know if it's just that simple.

Willow 53:40

Well, here's the deal is they're the foundation of everything else. So if you go to the roots and you work on the foundation first, everything upstream is gonna function better. So that's the simplicity of it.

Leah 53:55

Okay. Yeah. It's worth it

Willow 53:58

Yeah, and one thing we didn't even touch on or talk about is, is ashwagandha. Like ashwagandha is the king herb for your adrenals. So if you're over 38 or 40 years old, like you should just be ash on ashwagandha as a, as a daily, every single day, it's just gonna make a huge difference. There's other herbs for your adrenals, like Eli throw, um, Cortis, Romania, all these different, um, herbs are gonna be really supportive. All the lion's mane and all those mushroom blends are gonna be really supportive for your adrenals. But then, like, eating shiitake mushrooms, eating re, you know, uh, these things are make a big difference in, in how your body functions and, and how you feel, how well your hormones are balanced and in optimal states relates to how you feel emotionally. So I think so many of us don't understand that hormones and emotions are two sides of the same coin. So if you're feeling like anxious and stressed out and overwhelmed, there might be, yeah, something deeper like a gut thing or your vagus nerve isn't a tangle. You know, there's other things that could be a part of it, but if, if your, um, if your estrogen levels are tanks and you know, you're, you're just all over the place, then those could make a big difference and, and it's often getting onto bioidentical hormones. Gives you enough space, like, okay, wow, I feel okay now. I can

Leah 55:35

I'm sleeping at

Willow 55:36

on my gut health. You know, like,'cause before that you're just underwater with it all. So the, it can be a really nice first step. You know, there's just so many different schools of thought to how

Leah 55:49

It's such a big topic, isn't it? I mean, it's just vast, you know? And in closing, I, I think what feels uplifting about, uh, when we have of speakers, especially in your industry on, is the holistic approach really is so important. So much of modern psychology right now is taking a look at The truth is that our mind and our emotions and our body are not separate things. We're treating them as if they're separate, but they're not. They all come together. Your emotions and your mind are just as intertwined with your hormones. And all of these things, they're not separate. We have to start looking at it from a big picture.

Willow 56:26

Mm-hmm.

Leah 56:27

So with that, please tell me what your journey's been like if you are in andropause or menopause. We're curious to see what things have been working for you.

Willow 56:36

Much love y'all.

Leah 56:37

Much love.

Speaker 56:38

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and positive psychology facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine doctor and Taoist Taxology teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget your comments, like subscribes and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.