Eyewitness to Therapy Episode 6: Intimacy and Vulnerability

My guest presented for therapy with a self-reported struggle with intimacy and vulnerability, particularly in therapeutic contexts, which often leads to prematurely discontinuing therapy. She expressed a disconnect between self-perception and others' perception of her, with a negative self-view especially related to her role as a mother. While cognitive-behavioral therapy has been utilized in the past, she reports it was not effective due to a perceived inability to alter her self-perception despite evidence of successes. 

My guest engaged in reflection exercises during the session and focused on increasing self-awareness. She began to recognize a pattern of negative self-talk, particularly in labeling herself as a "horrible mother". In contrast, she expressed a deep-seated knowing that she is not a "horrible mother" and maintains a healthy relationship with her child. 

By the end of the session, she appeared more open to exploration of these patterns and potentially continuing therapy, describing feeling safe and unjudged. She acknowledged the significance of her self-criticism and the importance of self-awareness in making more empowered choices in how she sees herself. She agreed to review the session material and complete a post-session questionnaire.

Transcript

Nice to meet you.    Just to lay a little groundwork for our meeting today.  This is the first time we've ever met Right?     The only thing  I know about you is a little bit that you shared in the questionnaire that you filled out. Yeah.    Yeah. So this is a one-time meeting or session.

     The purpose here is to create a space for you to bring forth anything that you might be focusing in on your life or want to work on in your life.  And bring that forth and my job is to be helpful in any way that I can. Ok.  Okay. Okay. So this is the way we start each meeting.

Okay.  This is what therapy generally does, it's all about awareness.  And self-awareness.  So this is the way we start each meeting with that. Exactly. So what I would invite you to do is take a moment to reflect on the question, what am I aware of right now?  Coming into this meeting.

Okay. Okay. And that, and your awareness could be something immediate or that you've been aware of or whatever, but, okay. So, to reflect on that question, what am I aware of right now? And then to begin a series of sentences that begins with the words. Now I am aware. Or I am aware, okay. I'm filling in the blank with whatever comes up for you one sentence at a time, and you do it several times and just see what shows up.

 When you share an awareness that kind of leads to the subject of our conversation.

But if you have something specific that you would like to bring forth certainly feel free to declare that  from the beginning. Okay.  That helps to frame our conversation. Sure. What your intention is. Okay. Okay. So let us begin with awareness then.  Okay.  What am I aware of right now?

Right now I'm aware of? Okay.  Right now I'm aware. It's hard for me to speak in these sentence frames because when you said this is gonna be a one-time thing, I was immediately like, yes. And I'll tell you why.  Because I sought therapy in numerous times in the past, and every time the therapist has gotten to that point where I have gotten some sort of revelation where I've cried or where  I've expressed some weakness.

I break up with them. Never see  you break up with the therapist. So I'm aware that I, when you say you break up  do you run away? I just think the therapist, it's been very nice and I never see them again. Okay. It's   I don't want to go there.    What's been, what's showing up in my experience?

So I'm gonna break up with you cause I don't wanna go any further. Exactly. So I'm aware that I have a problem with intimacy or vulnerability. Okay. Intimacy and vulnerability. Yes. Okay. Let's just pin that for a moment. I think that's a good thing for me to pin. Oh, okay. Intimacy and vulnerability. Okay. Yes.

So that, that's worthy of exploration. That is worthy of exploration. Okay. I am also aware that other people see me very differently than I see myself.  And they see me in a much more positive light than I see myself. I am aware of all my  flaws and faults, and others see my strengths and  and are drawn to me because of them.

And I'm aware of all of this. I've done cognitive behavioral therapy and it doesn't work for me because I'm like  I know the ev. I can look at the evidence of all of my successes and say, yeah, but so what  are you saying  that doesn't change your perception of yourself? No. How other people see you.

You,  it doesn't change any, your perception of yourself.  I'm just curious real quickly, so how would you contrast  maybe you just said it already. So how would you contrast  the way you think people see you or demonstrate seeing you with how you see yourself? I think I'm a horrible mother.

I'm a horrible mother. You tell yourself. Okay. Yes. So I'm a horrible mother. Okay. Let's pin that too. Okay. That's worthy of ex explor. I'm a horrible, because that sounds like that's part of what you, or how you've come to see yourself. I'm a horrible mother. Horrible mother.  I know. I'm not a horrible mother.

Okay.  That's good to see. Yes. Okay. So there's a thought that says I'm a horrible mother and a certain knowing. Yes. That I'm not a horrible mother. Is that right? Yes. Okay. Yes. Great.  I, yeah, I know. I'm not a horrible mother. That child well adjusted. He loves me to death. Yeah. I love him.  Yeah.

  That, that's just a quick thing there that  that's a good thing to just know cuz you, you have a choice where you live.    You can live in the knowing I'm not a horrible mother or live in the thought that I'm a horrible mother. Oh, that's so good.  And then entitled and then you get entitled to feel depressed and sad.

Yes. Cause you think of yourself as a horrible mother. Yes. And you live in that thought. Yes.  Oh, that's good.  I, okay.  I am aware that, can we go back to that? Sure.   Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. I have, I am aware that I have certain  physical, me medical  limitations to what I can and cannot do.

I have multiple sclerosis. Okay. Let, lemme Okay. Gotcha. Okay. Very curious about that, but go ahead.    And  so I am aware that I have this, but I don't. Allow myself any grace around it. Okay. Does that make sense? Okay.  Okay. That's, I hear that. I don't allow myself any grace around that. Okay.

I'm much harder on myself than I would be on anyone else. Okay. So you're hard on yourself for this condition? Yes, because I can't keep up with everyone. Oh, okay. Okay. Other people like at work, so I'm a teacher, Uhhuh, and  people have to pick up my slack.      I couldn't go on the eighth grade.  I teach eighth grade and they all went to Spain this year and I couldn't go.

And I wasn't sad that I couldn't go to  I was sad that I couldn't go to Spain.  Obviously everyone wants to go to Spain, but I was more upset that my students didn't get to have me on the trip, that somebody else had to leave their class to go for me. It happens all the time with field trips or  school activities, things like that. So I carry around a lot of guilt. I see. And feelings of  shame about that. I see. So your physical condition limits you  and  certain things that you can do, like  your physical condition, you wouldn't allow you, let's say, to go on that trip.  And it's not visible.

It's more of a fatigue, exhaustion, and my body sort of shuts down when I have had too much. I see. But you can't see it every day. Uhhuh? I don't You mean o others can't see it every day.  Or you can't see it every day. No one can see it uhhuh every day. I don't walk with a cane. I don't.  It's just a sort of  you can  see it in my face when I'm not feeling well, but it's not like  a visible disability.

 Okay.  But you are limited  in movement in some, no, I'm limited in energy. In energy. Okay. So it's an energy thing.  Okay. So you get fatigued. Yes. Very rapidly. I see. Yes. Okay. Yes, I hear you. Okay.  Okay. Do we need more or is that  okay.  I mean that No, that's great.  That, that's great  that's  a little exercise or technique, so starting that way  okay.

 That   brings you into observation. So any of those things, I know we pinned something  a moment ago, but if there's any of those things that you  are acknowledging that you're aware of  that you feel is worthy of exploring further.      Any of those things.  I think Okay.

So I think the common thread is  I'm aware of my need for validation from others in order to feel something.  Okay. I'm aware of my need for validation for Right. So to feel okay. In myself. So if I look at all three of the things that I brought up right  which I can't even, oh  the fear of intimacy and vulnerability.

 The fear feeling that I'm not a good mother, which does match up with  my ms.  And the fear that I'm allowing others to pick up my slack and that they somehow resent me. And all of those things I see. I think what it is and what it has been my whole life is this  need for validation. Need for validation and  for others to tell me it's okay.

Uhhuh, you're great. Okay. Don't worry. You're wonderful. And that would be validating for you to hear. That would be validating. And I think that I don't have a mechanism within myself  that I have cultivated  to feel that. Way about myself that others do feel about me.    And to internalize the things that people tell me I'm good at.

 Or tell me they like and love about me.  Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah.   And  you hear that from people. Is that right? Yes. I only hear the good things. Yeah. You only hear good things. Okay. I kinda ignore the rest and focus only, I've always been like that. You hear no negative things regarding neverless things.

Alright  but, or and it sounds      you still think or feel yourself a certain way. Yeah.  Yes.  And that coming down to motherhood, let's say that you still sure. Think of yourself as, I'm a horrible mother. I'm a terrible mother, or, yes. Yes. Yeah.  Can you see that those are simply thoughts?

Does that mean they just see those with thoughts? Thoughts, you think? Yes. Except with my son, there's a product. And I'm so afraid that I'm not giving him what he needs to be the best person he can be. Okay, so  you're afraid of not giving him the best he needs for him to what? To be the person that you know.

Okay. So you're afraid that you're not giving him that  do you? Is that right? You're afraid of not  do you see any evidence that you are giving  that I am. Yeah.     Giving you, yeah. It depends on the metric, right? It depends on how you're measuring. Yeah.  Okay. Okay.  And my kid is well fed and happy and goes to school and lives in a lovely home and has friends and two parents that live together and love him and all those things.

Okay.  So that's a metric, right? It, that's the metric. Great. But I let him play video games and I am, sometimes I put myself before him because of, oh, because I'm sick. And so he has had to his whole life, Be like, oh,  I can't play with mommy right now because she is sick. Or, I see  it's that.

Okay. It's always Is that like a frequent thing or an occasional thing? More frequent, though. The older he gets it.  I'm  I'm curious. More frequent when you have to tell him, I'm sorry, mommy's tired. I can't be with you. Is that basically what you're saying? Yeah. It's getting more frequent as I get older.

 O Okay. More, more frequent that you're so not feeling well. Not feeling well.  And sometimes  and using, not feeling well to kind distance yourself a little bit from him, is that what you're saying? Yeah. Okay. But usually it is because I'm not feeling well. Okay.  I mean  it's just  it's hard to explain, but the, when I have my MS flare up and I have the episodes, it's this  I need to be.

 Alone. I get  really  on edge. I'll yell at him. I'll yell anybody around me. I see. Okay. Get away. My brain doesn't. Okay. So get you get into yelling. Yelling at him. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. See? Precise. Horrible. Say again. Horrible. Horrible. Okay. Horrible. Okay. And it's not something I feel I can control. Oh, yelling?

Yeah. The yelling. The yelling. You don't, cause I'll do it and then I'll say, I'm so sorry. Immediately after.  What does yell, what does yelling do for you? What do you get outta yelling? Nothing. Nothing. Just as an automatic, we're yelling.  So it's automatic with you to yell.  You don't recognize that you have some kind of choice about that.

Ooh.  It builds, obviously I have a choice. I'm a  I'm a sentient human being.  I try and teach him about, Skills and strategies that he can use when he's feeling his temper rise.  You can say to him some tick tips to Yeah. How to deal with certain emotions. Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. Okay.  And I don't use them for myself.

Oh. I try. What do you do? I'm curious real quickly. I said  what do you try? I said, babe, mommy needs you to do what to I just  mommy needs to be alone right now. Mommy. Mommy needs to  be alone right now. Mommy. You actually say those words to him. Yes. Mommy needs to be alone. Mommy.

 Needs to be alone. Mommy doesn to feel alone right now.  Do you yell that or do you speak? No, I speak that.  You just speak that. Okay. Yes. And then he'll be like  he'll push it. Okay. And that's when I'll, yeah. Okay. So he pushes it. Pushes it. In what way?  What is he trying to convey to you?

He's just a pusher. He's an only child who's very indulged. Pushing. He pushing me. Meaning what?  What is he trying to put? I'm playing. Yes  please.  Being a kid. Ok. He's a kid. He's playing years. So he, so are you saying that he's playing with you? Is what you mean by pushing. He's such a good boy.

  Is that what you're saying? Ben? So mad. Cause I'm curious what evokes your anger? Cause you say he, it's not even anger, it's just,  okay. Frustration. Frustration. And it comes out loudly. Okay. All okay. And it, he tells me it doesn't bother him, but it bothers me. Okay. So you, okay, so you raise your volume.

I raise my volume. Ok. This sounds so ridiculous what I'm saying. Ok. Alright  okay. But this is what occurs. It sounds like you, yes.     You feel the need to withdraw, let's say, cuz you're feeling  what you're feeling.      And you're, you convey to him  mommy needs to    be alone right now or  whatever you say. And so he doesn't quite immediately accept that he  plays with you. It's  oh, come on, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Whatever he does, he's silly. Yes.  And then you get frustrated with him. Yes. And then you start yell, and then you raise your voice. I raise my voice. You raise your voice.

And then what happens after that? He's  he goes away and says, okay. And then he goes and plays by himself or goes outside and shoots hoop, or, it doesn't sound that bad when you say it.  Is it bad?  No, I'm not beating my child or you're not beating your child. I just wanna, I tell him nicely, he doesn't do it.

I tell him in words that he understands. Yeah.  Real quickly, I don't know of any parent who never raises their voice. Also, the thing is my husband and I are like East coast.    Like loud mouth East coasters living in the Pacific Northwest. Okay. And I know loud mouth know the Pacific Northwest    Scandinavian tone is very much different than the East Coast noise.

And so I think I also feel a bit like  an anomaly here. An anomaly. Okay.  Like everyone's  because you're not nice and quiet and you're not chill, you're not chill. I'm not chill like that. No. My husband's the same way.  So guess that it sounds like you, and it sounds like you think there's something wrong with that.

It's definitely outta place.  It's outta place. Yeah. All right.   Who's not outta place really.  That's true. All right. Problem solved. I feel better about that one.

Okay. Alright.  Good.    One idea there  record cuz it sounds like    whether you get upset or raise your voice or not     you have a choice about that.   And at the same time, it sounds   raising your voice isn't such a terrible thing sometimes   that's    how we    make something clear to someone.

 Maybe who's not clear  something about  I need my alone time, so Yeah. I just need to cut through the noise sometimes.  Yeah.  Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. Good. Okay. You feel that's solved? Yeah. I feel better about that. Okay. All right. Great. Okay.

 We can move on to the next thing if you like. Okay, sure. Anything   we're not gonna solve my fear of intimacy and  vulnerability today.  No.   Mean can talk about  are you open to solving it? I'm open to talking about it, yeah. You're open to talking about it. I'm open to solving it.

You're open to solving it. Your fear of intimacy. Yes. Okay. Yeah.  Let's talk about it. O okay.  Okay. So how did you put it?  A fear of intimacy and what? Vulnerability. And vulnerability.    So basically I'm hearing you say, I have a fear of that. I'm afraid of that.  Is what you're saying.

I'm afraid of intimacy. Yes. Okay. All right.   So looking at that a little closer then  what do you mean by intimacy?  Is intimacy.  How would you even know that you're being intimate? I never use people's names. You didn't use their names? I call my husband Sweet Little nicknames. Okay. And okay.

To call him by his name feels too real. Feels too real?  Oh, what, in what way do you mean that?     He's my husband, Uhhuh, but if I make him ano  I don't know. I'm trying to put words to it.    Real quickly  when you talk to him that way, do you feel  intimate with him?  Is that kinda  a    people  couples have often have nicknames for one another.

 Or say  Sweden, I want call him by his name. You want to call him by his name. Okay. And I want him to call him, call me by my name. Okay. By your name. Okay. But only because  Because I read an article about it years ago about how  using these little nicknames shows  a lack of true intimacy.

Oh, it shows a lack. Okay.   That's different than my immediate  in some way, in some ways to, to me it's  it depends on the situation, but it can be  an expression of certain affection. It's definitely affection. We have lots of, yeah. Hey sweetie. Hey sweetie. How are you?  Yeah.

We have all the affection in the world for each other. Okay. And  but I don't feel like I give him all of who I am. Okay. All right. So that's another thing. I don't feel like I give him all, I feel like we're Of who I'm, yeah. I feel like we're, I feel this is not just with my husband. I feel like, cuz I, I've always been an actress my whole life.

I feel like I play pretend things. I play pretend. Yeah.  Just pretend like I'm pretending to be a wife. I'm pretending to be a teacher. I'm pretending to be a mommy.  Those are roles, aren't they? They're roles I put on a role. Yeah.   Yeah. Isn't that normal? True. That, that we all do that.

Okay.  That feels better.  Yeah.  Yeah, e every relationship  you play a role. Okay.  A mo, a mother, son relationship is you play the role of mother and he plays the role of son. He is, that's what he calls himself.  And husband, wife  you're my husband, you're my wife, I'm your wife, kinda thing.

 But it sounds like maybe    you said, I don't ever give him all of who I am. Yeah. They're something deeper than that I'm not able to articulate well.  So what is all of who you are?

I don't know. Any idea? What is all of who, because you say you, you say, I don't give him all of who I am. Like, so  he's a challenge. He has had a, he's a challenging individual.  To who To whom? To everybody. To everybody.  He's to himself most of all. Oh. He to himself. Childhood. And he's guarded. And  and I'm  I've always been afraid that if I say how I really feel in a certain situations Okay.

That he'll leave. Oh, okay. All right.  I'm curious about that. When you say, I'm afraid if I say to him what I really feel like if we're   I'm just curious what you mean by that.    If you shared with him what you really feel  what would you actually say to him?  It depends on the situation, of course.

Exactly right. Yeah, exactly. But  if we're in an, a disagreement about something     I'll usually just concede, eventually let him have his way. You mean? Let him have his way. Okay. Because I'm afraid if I don't, it will significantly alter the relationship. Okay. And so you're afraid of altering the relationship or He'll leave?

He'll leave.  Okay. So this is what I'm hearing so far.  If I'm honestly myself  and express myself around certain things.    Then  he might leave.  His mother left when he was seven, so he came home from school. Okay. And his mother was sitting, this is horrible. His mother was sitting at the kitchen table with two packed suitcases next to her, and she said to him, at seven years old, tell your father I can't take it anymore.

And she left him. And she left. Got it. Okay.    That's part of his story. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like it. Yeah.   And sounds  but you, but I'm hearing you say, I'm afraid  if I'm myself with him, somehow that's gonna harm him. I'm afraid that he won't be able to, that he loves me because  I give him what he needs from Yeah.

Will you? Okay. You give him what? He Of course. Okay. So he sounds like  when you say he loves me, it sounds like you  he appreciates you. Is that true? Yeah. Yeah. He appreciates what you bring to him? Yes. Absolutely.  And he conveys that to you? Yes. Yes. Yeah. Okay. He's wonderful husband. Okay. All right.

Great. Unstable sometimes, but wonderful.   We're all unstable sometimes. Yeah, right?  I just, I, in certain situations, we're all unstable. That's true. Yeah.  But  not always, but,  yeah. Yeah.  I don't know what it is. I'm, I, maybe I'm inventing things. I'm not inventing things. Oh, okay.

   Hold on. Okay. J just fill in the blank and just see. Maybe because you say maybe I'm inventing things. No, I'm not. Okay. Okay.  Okay.  Just fill in the blank. One or two times, maybe I'm inventing, fill in the blank. Maybe I'm inventing.

Maybe I'm inventing his  the tenuousness. Okay. His tenuousness, his commitment level O Okay. Okay. Okay. So  I'm inventing maybe  the tenuousness that I think he feels about this relationship. Yeah. Like I'm inventing that. I'm inventing that. Yeah. I'm inventing that. Okay. All right. Yeah. Got it. Okay.

Yeah.  Okay. That's great. Yeah.     When you see that you're inventing that Yeah. Are you distinguishing that from reality? Rephrase that. What's the reality then? What, and  what's the reality that he  does he demonstrate another reality than what you think? No. No. Okay.  He repeats a loving, wonderful husband.

He's a loving, okay. With a bad temper sometimes, but never in a scary way. Okay. Okay.   Coming back to you cuz it sounds like you're saying I have a certain fear of intimacy. Yeah.  But I'm more  I'm more comfortable in myself with him than anyone. So that's a bad example, I think. Okay. Okay.

 Who else  do you feel, have a, do you experience a fear of intimacy with that shows up in your, immediately in your consciousness? My, my friends and colleagues for sure. I'm very much  when I, the, this is how I can explain it. When I was dating, and this goes back to the  thera me breaking up with my therapist when I was dating, I always loved the first date.

I loved first dates. Okay. And I dreaded the second date. Okay. Because I had to remember who I was the first date.  I had to remember who I was.  I way I hear that I  had to remember who I invented myself to be. Okay. Same thing, right? Yeah.  Yeah.    It's called how we  we play roles in life.

 And the roles that we play are not tru  who we truly are.  The way I digress. Go ahead. I feel that pressure whenever I'm  with any friends or colleagues or anything like that.  I will never see  I'll never go back to the same hairstylist more than once.    It's more that kind of thing.

Like I don't, okay.  So am I hearing, I the rea part of  why I don't go back is  I'm  cuz you, you put the word vulnerability in there as well. It's like some, somehow  I'm a, I'm afraid of what? Revealing myself or sharing myself. Yeah.  What if. What if I'm just an ordinary person?  What if, oh, that's interesting.

What if I'm ifm not just an ordinary person? Interesting.  Oh my God, that would be horrible, wouldn't it? To just be an ordinary person? Yeah. For me. Oh yeah.  To you.  Yeah. I can't allow myself to be an ordinary person. I've gotta be something else. I've gotta be something else. I have to be something  yeah.

 Yeah. Spectacular and cool. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.    That's why   you don't follow through with things.  Cuz you think you've gotta keep that image up.      Yeah. That's what it's  exactly. Yeah.  Instead of  perhaps  revealing or sharing of yourself.

 Or actually being interested in other people.  Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.    Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.  That's, that evokes intimacy, doesn't it? You  curiosity about others and to ask questions perhaps, or point out something.  Appreciate. Yeah, absolutely.  Cause  consider    that comes back to you.

It's just, it takes so much energy for me to interact in these situations with others takes energy. So much energy, social energy. Okay.  This is what I hear.  What takes energy. Truly takes energy is continually trying to put up a front. Yes. Yeah.   A mask, basically. Yes. Basically, that says, I dare not reveal to you who I'm  yes.

The flawed person that  I actually, yeah.  Whatever I experience is flawed. Yeah. I can't share that. I can't share, I can't share my awareness of my flaws. Yes. Yeah. Because why  what's my biggest fear in sharing my awareness of my flaws?  Again, I think it comes back to being an ordinary person.

Oh, I might just be an ordinary person. Maybe  there's gotta be more to it.        Do you imagine some kind of judgment from others?

I don't know.  I really don't. Because  what  what, so what keeps you behind a mask? Because you   that, that's where consider  that's where your energy drain comes from.  Continually trying to keep up a mask, and that is absolutely draining. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think you're absolutely right and I don't know where it comes from.

   Consider  that comes from childhood, right?   That's where we learn that.  Fe feelings are dangerous. Yeah. No, we don't discuss feelings in my family. Never have. No, absolutely. Yeah. That's  off, off limits. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And everything has always  no, yeah, feelings, off limits.

Everything is  let's just talk about what the good stuff, right? Exactly. Yeah. And everything else gets pushed into the table    exactly. I don't know how that. Relates to my self image and feelings.  I think it relates everything to it. Yeah. It relates everything to it because that, that, that's where we learn such things.

 And that's not just you, that's just all of us.    We learn It's not okay to feel.       We hear things like, if you don't stop crying, I'll give you something to cry about or don't. Yeah. My dad was stop crying personally. Yeah. It's   so we learn early on, out of  the criticism that we receive from our world, or namely our family and parents, is we learn to  suppress ourselves.

It's not okay to feel.  So  we're continue  but that doesn't stop us from feeling  so we continue to feel what we feel.    We're just continually attacking ourselves for feeling what we feel.  It's not okay to feel what you feel, so you better hide it. That's true. No.

That is related to how I feel now, isn't it?  Yeah.  That's interesting. I think that I've always thought  my mother is  a lovely woman. She alive still. Yes.    Super judgmental and critical.  But in a charming way. In a charming way. Charming way. She told me every day my, my, she like  kill with kindness, so to speak.

Kind of. Yeah.  She told me every day of my life that I was beautiful. Okay.  That was my childhood. And how can a person complain about that?  Oh, okay. But that, so you got that feedback. You're beautiful. That was it. That was what I was beautiful. You're phy physically beautiful. That's different.

I'm just so beautiful. So beautiful. Okay. Okay. All right.  But, so I think that part of my problem is that was a, what I. Valued. Yeah. What I learned to value physical beauty and physical beauty. And b, when I realized I wasn't as beautiful as my mother said I was  I'm pretty  I'm attractive, but I'm also short and chubby and like all these things that from the outside media world are not considered  feminine ideals in our day and age.

So I think there was a lot of disconnect there and discord growing up. Gotcha. And  it was always the focus on the physical. It still is.  With both my parents  it's like my father just lost a bunch of weight and it's, every single conversation has to do with, oh my gosh, daddy lost another five pounds, daddy lost.

It's  can we talk about something else? Yeah. So I think that there's a lot of that too, Uhhuh. And I think that part of the mask is I have to put on this pretense of how much I love myself uhhuh, and how amazing and wonderful I know I am. Or else somebody might, oh, I'm gonna go here. Somebody might just see me as like the  fat girl.

So  if I don't see, I'm gonna break up with you. It's a good thing. This is only one day. Okay. So if keep going, you're doing great. Don't put So  emotion is coming up, right? Yes. So could you allow yourself to feel this emotion, what you're feeling good. Because you already are Go ahead. Yeah, I already am.

 So if I don't put on that mask of like complete confidence and like I'm so cool and I'm sexy and I'm powerful and I'm all of these things, then someone's just gonna ignore me.  I'm just, That's what it's, yeah.  Somebody's gonna ignore me. Yeah.  Somebody's not gonna see that or validate that in me.

Somebody's not gonna see how great Im  Uhhuh unless I show them Uhhuh. Unless I wear that. Because I'm not that uhhuh. Like the only reason, the only way, sorry, I'm getting emotional.  That's okay. No, that's what I'm supposed to be. Are you apologize for getting emotional? Oh, I just don't wanna bore you.

Oh, so you think I, so you think you're boring me?    So is this another excuse you give yourself to shut down your emotions? I'm just gonna be boring somebody. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.  I know.  Do you care whether  do you wanna know whether I'm bored or not? Yeah. I'm not bored. Okay, good.

Thank you. Or that you like, feel like God, just another spoiled white chick who like has body image issues.  Like you think that's how I see you? Probably. Probably. Do you wanna check that out? Sure. What do you wanna ask me? Is that how you see me? No. Just another middle-aged white woman with  no.

Mommy issues. A absolutely no.   Not even close. Okay. So thank, but I hear, I, I am hearing you  and  I can hear   your struggle  and what you're  deal  with within yourself. Yeah. Yeah. And obviously  we're 35 minutes in and now we're getting to  the truth, right?

So  this is the core of everything for me. Okay. The core of everything. Okay. Gotcha. Okay.  So  let's just  summarize that.  So   what, how would you articulate what's the core of everything with me? How would you just summarize? There's not a day, there's not probably an hour that goes past where I'm not thinking about what size I am, where I'm not saying God.

A year ago I lied, weighed five pounds less and now look at me.  It's    constant. Okay.  So I'm hearing that as constant self-criticism. Yes. And then about your weight. About your weight. Yes. Uhhuh. And I'm not even   I'm an, as far as American women right now, today, I'm an average sized woman, right?

 Uhhuh, I know that.  Uhhuh  with my husband.  When we were first dating, he told somebody, I can't remember who, that I was voluptuous but attractive. Voluptuous. But attractive. But attractive. But attractive. Okay. And he told me he had never dated a girl that wasn't skinny before. Okay.

Okay. So if we go back to my, if I'm real with my husband, I'm afraid he is gonna walk. That's the core of that. Gotcha. Okay.  Okay.  With my child, it's    I'm not a good role model for him.    It's like it's every single thing Yeah. In my life revolves around the fact that I'm not thin.

Yeah. Okay. Okay.  And then, but, and, but what you do on the private stage of your mind is  you're in continuous criticism of you Yes. About your weight. Yes. And about other, okay.  So in other words, what you hear, if I were inside your consciousness or your mind, what I would hear is constant criticism.

Constant. Constant. Okay. Would you be willing to explore that a little bit here? Sure. Why not? Okay  so what I'd invite you to do is to.  Separate yourself into two or just see yourself on the screen. Okay. And then I want you to  speak a series of  criticisms towards you and just No, I can't do that.

Oh, ok. Ok. Okay. Okay. So the idea in doing this, I can't say it out loud well, is to  okay. Okay. I hear that. Okay. But the idea in that is to reveal to yourself, to bring out, into the open your self criticisms and to discover  the impact of these criticisms on yourself. And   do I have any kind of choice about whether I continue to criticize myself?

Cuz you're doing this to you.  Nobody is doing this to you, but you, it's true. So the idea in this little exercise is to bring that into awareness where you can see these critical thoughts.  But I don't wanna push you to do that. I'm just inviting you.  I'm afraid to do that. You're afraid to do that?

Okay. Yeah. All right. Okay. Okay. All right. Yeah. Okay. I hear that. Okay. I honor that. I'm sorry. I did it once in grad school. Yeah. In theater school we had to do a  performance art class, and I did that. I You did that? Yes. What'd you do? We  I, in, I created a small room and I invited people in one at a time, and I was unclothed and I had a checklist of all my flaws and I read it off like it was a doctor's appointment, and  just bared it all to everyone and read a checklist of my physical flaws to everyone Uhhuh.

And what was that like doing that?  It still felt fake because I only focused on the flaws that I felt were like,  bad.  Like I drew attention to the parts of my body that I thought  were less awful than others.    But  I felt very close to those people cuz I don't know, theater school is like a family,     I don't know. The worst one was when yeah, it wasn't okay. It was bad, but not normal. Yeah.  That, that's a good little exercise. And  just the whole idea and    is to,  recognize that you live in your self criticism,  you live in your self criticism and you also experience the effect of your self criticism, which is  what we're talking about here, this fear and call it what not good enoughness, there's something wrong with me, I'm defective, or whatever.

That  you, and that you keep trying to somehow   what's the word?    Fix or something.    In other words, this, these critical thoughts are continually pointing out something to you  and you, your response to that.  First of all    if I'm coming down on myself continuously, I'm gonna feel pretty depressed.

   I'm gonna      but if I'm not recognizing that I'm the one that's doing it,      I'm just ongoingly creating my own depression,     and I can blame my depression on my. Any other external factors. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.   And your depression really has nothing to do with that ultimately.

 Your circumstances are your circumstances.  But  you carry around in your circumstances, this self-critical aspect of you.  It's   continually jabbering in the background, right? Yeah. Constantly.    Never good enough. Something wrong with me, people don't like me or whatever.

Yeah. Yeah.   And the thing about that   you obviously get different messages from your world that, that don't fit what you say to you, right? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So what do I do about that?  Okay  that's why I invited you to do this little exercise.  I guess I can try, but.

 Let's try  the idea, okay.  Can I be, can you be a little playful here? Okay.    And go ahead and just  find, maybe find the actress in you  and  exaggerate. Just pointing out  all your flaws and    you're this and you're that. And you never do this. And  look at your relationship with your son, and look at what you do here.

And  there's just something wrong with you and  you're really terrible, horrible human being and     you're hopeless. And  look at all the things that you're doing, that kinda thing. Okay.  But I think I can forgive everything about myself except my physical body.

Okay. So go ahead.      Let you have it then. Okay. With your physical body.  I, you connect  you speak to you.  Okay.  You are morbidly obese. You have square feet that don't fit into normal sized shoes. You have, I can't do this. You have no ankles. You have massive soccer player calves that you inherited from your father, but you don't even play soccer. So what's your excuse? You used to have a beautiful shape to your body, but then you had a child, and now you just have a mom body and you don't do anything about it because as soon as you try to exercise your stupid MS flares up, and then you can't do anything, and then you go and eat your feelings.

You used to be beautiful, and now you've just let yourself go. Your face is too brown, your neck is too short, your arms are flabby. There's not an ounce of you that isn't obese.  There's no part of you that you could  highlight to be beautiful from the chin down. That's it. Okay.  And add these words, see how the resident and so therefore there's something wrong with you.

Yeah. Yeah. Is that what you're saying? That says there's something wrong with you? Yeah, it's shameful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.  Okay.    That, we'll consider that's what you're doing. You're shaming yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.  So taking a moment just to reflect on the things that you just said. Are you spoke, how do you feel about these things that you're saying to you?

 I. Of emotions. I know that it's not true. Okay. Okay.  It's true, but it's true. Not true, but not to the degree. Okay.    Okay, let me stop you real quickly here. Okay? So I want you to  split yourself in, keep yourself splitting two, and I want you to become the recipient of what you just heard and speak back to this critic, okay?

 Whatever you refute.  Just to go ahead and say, look  I know it's not true, whatever. Okay? Yeah.  Look, I'm a size 14.  That's the American average woman. I eat healthy. I occasionally eat junk food, but it's not like I'm shoving fast food and junk food into my brain and body. I gave up fried food, and I've been doing that for a year and a half.

So what do you want from me? You're. You come from  a genetically, your whole entire family is  sturdy and short, and that's who you come from. You're Russian peasant folk. You have unrealistic people. You're comparing yourself  to people that you cannot be no matter what. You've starved yourself in the past.

You, you've had your eating disorders in the past, you're not gonna go back there and you're beautiful.  Everybody tells  you're beautiful strangers stop you in the street and tell you.   What else do you want in life? That's it. Okay. All right. Good. Okay, so  let's play this out just a few more turns here.

So  to switch roles again. Okay. And to hear what you, this other side of you, let's say, just said, how do you respond.    You're the critic, right? Okay. So how do you respond to what you just heard?  First of all, strangers used to stop you in the street and tell you were beautiful, but now you're just an old woman.

Secondly  yeah, you're genetically  Russian pea peasant, but who cares? You can still like diet and exercise more.  Just do better.  Yeah, you gave up fried food, big deal. Give up other things. Stop. Just stop eating your feelings. Stop sitting around. Be more active. Just do it. Okay. I guess that's what I would say.

Okay. So switch rolls back again, hearing that and just explain    how do you feel about this critic? Can you say anything there?  That was a bit more rational. That last round. Okay. So say that to the critic. You were a little bit more rational. Okay. You were a little bit more rational there.

There's always a little bit more that one can do to improve oneself.     You've always been afraid of  not having the crutch of being sick to lean on. So  if I pushed myself through the pain and the exhaustion, like what would happen on the other side?  If I just fixed it, would I then find what I need on the other side?  And why are you, why am I so afraid of that?

And why does it matter? So much what strangers on the street think. Why does it matter?  Why does it matter? Yeah. Why does it matter? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. So this, so  be the critic again and hear that.  How do you feel hearing that? Hearing that? I feel so, so you're creating a little dialogue here and seeing where this goes.

   As the critic, okay. You might try. So hearing that, I feel, I hearing that I feel like you're contin, you're still making excuses, you're talking yourself out of something still.  But I don't know. Okay.  I  lost the, yeah. Okay. The thread a bit. You kinda lost the thread there. Okay. Yeah.  Okay. Okay.  So  let's just take a moment here just to review, kind of step outside because you  you're having a conversation with two different parts of you, right?

 Okay. The cri, the critic, and  the re the receiver of that criticism.  And so you're giving yourself a little permission to respond to this critic.  And    and  there may be more to  flesh out there, but step stepping outside of it just for now, and looking at the conversation you just had, how    what do you see going on in this  inner dialogue that you play with yourself?

Anything?    I think that I  I do realize that there's a reality and there's a perceived reality and they're not quite the same. And that my. My reality fluctuates.  But it's usually   I don't have a healthy sense of myself. And by healthy  healthy and  clear. Like I don't know who I am.

Yeah.  I hear that. I don't know who I am. Really. Can you be okay not knowing who you are?  Does anybody really know? I don't know.   I'm asking you, could you be okay? Cuz you don't know  you don't know who you are. You say, could you be okay not knowing who you are? What I have been for 47 years?

Yeah.   What w what I'm hearing that you've done to replace who you are is some idea of yourself.  Some self-concept of yourself.  Yes. Called   and maybe that's who I really am.  That's what you think that's. Yeah.  Consider, you consider  try,  consider this.

You are who you are.  Okay.  Say these words and just see how they resonate. Okay.    I am who I am. I am who I am. Okay.    Say those words like three times  with an emphasis.  On a different emphasis on  each word as you say it. I am who I am. I am who I am. I am who I am.  Yeah. Is that true? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's true, isn't it?  You are who you are, right? Yeah. You're not some idea, some film. No. Yeah. Some picture of yourself. Oh, that's so interesting. You are who you are. Yeah.  Oh my gosh. Okay.  Why did that make me cry? Yeah.    Some people say when you finally meet yourself you'll come to tears. Wow.

But see,  if I'm who, I'm like, if this is actually me, then I like me.  If I am who other people think I am, then that's okay.  That's pretty good. Okay. Yeah,  uhhuh, I'm okay with that. I'm still not okay with  the physical aspects of it.  But I'm okay with the whole package  the whole package.

Yeah. The whole package,  yeah. Yeah. You're a whole package. Exactly.  Okay,  good. We are coming to the end of our meeting. I, okay.     I think we've covered a lot of ground here, but  so this is the way we end each meeting. Okay. Just the way we began with another awareness.  Okay. So look and see what am I aware of in this moment coming to a close, and then a few words  how do I feel about our meeting today?

Is there anything that I take from this conversation at all? Any insight, realization, or anything? Okay. So I start with awareness. Yeah. So what am I aware of in this moment, in this instant? Okay.  I'm aware that there's a lot that I just dug through or dug up. And I'm aware that I still have stuff to look through.

I am aware that I am  worthy of looking through that stuff. Maybe like I'm not just a boring old, middle-aged woman with nothing to complain about.

I think that's, oh, that's probably, that's it. Okay. Gotcha. Now does that make sense? Perfect. Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I hear you. I hear you there. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And then just a few words. Yeah. How do I feel? Just  an evaluative question in a way. Just Yeah.  How do I feel just about this conversation we just had?

I feel good about it.    I feel    I  I feel safe ish.    If I were to live in your town and you were my  therapist, like I might see you again. There's something different about this  process  where there's just no judgment at all. And I feel good about that. I feel like  whatever path I would've gone down this hour would've been the right path and that feels really good.

Does that make sense? Perfect sense. Perfect sense. I didn't feel like you were leading me to anything or,    okay.  Yeah. Awesome. I feel like there's a lot to explore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good, good. That's great. Yeah.   Yeah  I feel good about   I, we've covered a lot of ground there and  I think    you're touching on    the common thread of  every one of us human beings is this self-criticism, right?

That we run on ourselves, right? And  we live in that, call it self-criticism, call it self-judgment, self condemnation    I'm bad, I'm wrong. There's something wrong with me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We can go on  and on.  And   one of the ideas is just simply  just out of your awareness of that in, in hearing that  these are just thoughts and they're thoughts that I'm laying on myself.

 You come more to the place of    you of choosing, right? Of choosing  and choosing how you see yourself. Consider  you are who you say you are.  If I     I can say I'm a  beautiful child of God or something.    And that's who I say I am, and I am that because I say I am.

 Not  some external thing telling me who I am.    Good. All right. Thank you. All right.  Very good. Yeah.  Good.  So  thank you. Thank you for  volunteering to Yeah. Do this interview and  I'll    I do a little editing  of this, and so I'll  go through that and then I'll send you a copy of that and Okay.

Great. Do whatever you want with it and Okay.  Feel Yeah. If you have any thoughts about it Yeah, certainly let me know. And then  I'll also send you just  a little. After session questionnaire two, a little bit along the lines of the first one  all  all right. Very good, . All right.

Thank you all.  Take care. Go forth. Go forth. Thank you. In peace and self-awareness, all. Thank you very much. Okay, bye. Take care.