Eyewitness to Therapy
I am a Gestalt psychologist and therapist. In this podcast, I conduct real-life therapy sessions with individuals who volunteer to experience a taste of Gestalt therapy. The purpose of Gestalt therapy is to transform your experience of living, helping you to clear up the situations and emotions you are currently dealing with.
Eyewitness to Therapy
Breaking Free from the Grip of Panic
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Ever found yourself trapped in the throes of anxiety, yearning for a moment of peace? Join us as our brave guest opens up about her life, from a tumultuous childhood to the constant battle with anxiety that shaped her adult years. We discuss the unexpected panic attacks that began at 26 and the subsequent changes to her daily routine, as our guest learned to navigate life with chronic anxiety.
Imagine being afraid to drive or visit a grocery store due to overwhelming panic attacks. That's the reality our guest faced, leading to significant lifestyle adjustments. We'll explore the physical sensations and emotional toll anxiety took on our guest, including heart palpitations and emotional numbness. Hear firsthand about the struggle with self-expression and the pervasive fear of judgment, impacting even hobbies and creative outlets.
Can living in the present moment help alleviate anxiety? Together, we examine the possibility of letting go of anxious thoughts and embracing them as part of one's identity. Our conversation is rich with personal anecdotes and practical strategies, emphasizing self-acceptance and the power of being present. Tune in for an inspiring exploration of managing anxiety and finding peace amidst the chaos.
Hello and welcome to the Eyewitness to Therapy, the one-of-a-kind podcast that focuses on a real-life therapy situation. I'm your host, court Curtis, psychologist and therapist, passionate about bringing you into an immersive experience of self-awareness through therapy. In each episode, we dive deep into the struggles our guests face and guide them on a journey of self-discovery and resolution. As your dedicated therapist, my purpose is to create a safe space where you can openly share and address your issues. We'll explore the power of the present moment in resolving your concerns, knowing that the past is completely over and the future is never yet. The past is completely over and the future is never yet. The key to healing lies in awareness, in being witness to your consciousness, and that's precisely what we'll uncover together in every episode of Eyewitness to Therapy. So join us as we navigate the transformative power of therapy and self-awareness. Welcome to another episode of Eyewitness to Therapy. Every individual that I interview in this podcast has volunteered to participate in a one-time therapy session, and so I'm happy to welcome a new guest today. This is the first time we have ever met, so I know virtually nothing about this person other than from a very brief questionnaire that they filled out prior to this meeting. Every guest's identity is anonymous. All therapy is centered around the guest's issues and goals. Whatever they bring forth into the session becomes the focus of our conversation, and my goal is to be helpful in the best way I can.
Speaker 2:Gestalt therapy is all about living in the moment, and that is exactly where we start each session. I ask my guests to take a moment and allow a word or short phrase to bubble up in consciousness that simply names their here and now experience. And then I have them expound on that word what that word says of them, about them or about anything. And then I ask that they declare an intention for the session. An intention can be anything, such as what they hope to gain from the session or want help with. Declaring an intention from the outset helps frame our conversation and also serves to create a purpose and goal for our session. And then, lastly, we end each session the way we begin, with just a word that names their here and now experience.
Speaker 2:As we come to the close of our conversation, as well as a few words about how they feel about our session. Is there a takeaway, an insight or realization that they gained from our meeting together? That's the question. So come along with us as we step into this journey of exploration. Where the conversation goes, nobody knows, but that's also the excitement of therapy, a step into the unknown of possibilities. So, without further ado, let's welcome our new guest. Welcome to our conversation here today.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:So just to lay the groundwork for our conversation today, this is the first time we've met, and so I know nothing about you, actually, except for a little clip that you shared in the questionnaire that I sent you and the purpose of our meeting today is really to create a space for you to bring forth anything you desire to bring forth that you might want to address or work on or explore in our meeting today, and my job is to be helpful to you in any way that I can be helpful to you.
Speaker 2:So what I would invite you to do right now is to reflect on yourself, your life, your situation, your relationships, your thoughts, your feelings or any area of your life that you participate in, and then, as you reflect on these areas, go ahead and speak one word or short phrase that simply names your feeling state or experiential state that you experience in these various areas, just one sentence at a time, and then go for as many times as you wish or choose, and then, when you finish there, then complete this sentence. My intention for our session today is and then fill in the blank with whatever you fill in the blank with, and then fill in the blank with whatever you fill in the blank with.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I'm going to be reflecting on my life and just saying one word or a couple sentences at a time, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just actually limit it to about one sentence, each or one word, a short phrase. It just simply names your experiential state that you experience in those various areas.
Speaker 1:I think I would start with probably childhood, and just it was chaotic, that would be the best way to describe that. Moving into adolescence, lack of control, still chaotic, and then early adulthood gaining control, and still anxiety and chaos, but better. And then I was married. Early adulthood moved, I was in the military, so still crazy, but better independence. And then, a little bit into marriage, had had a kiddo, one son, so new experience, great. And then three years ago I started to have more anxiety and out of nowhere, just panic attacks. Out of nowhere. Obviously it's not out of nowhere, it's from somewhere, but I don't know where. So just the last three years have been living in turmoil a little bit and avoidance behavior. So that would be current state avoidant behavior.
Speaker 1:And then how was I supposed to say the sentence? My intention for this session today is to gain better insight into, maybe, why I'm feeling the way I do.
Speaker 2:maybe Okay, better insight into feeling the way you're feeling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have chronic anxiety and I don't know why.
Speaker 2:So anxiety is the feeling, would you say. So that's perfect, and so this intention for our session today is to focus on anxiety. Okay, that really evokes an initial curiosity for me, so can you share a little bit about what you're saying? The last three years, anxiety has been present in your it has.
Speaker 1:I think that I've probably been an anxious person most of my life, but I never had panic attacks until the last three years. They started when I was 26 or just turned 26. They happen at random times, when they started when I was driving. The first time it happened I was driving in a car and it freaked me out. I had lost like kind of control of my body, but no one in the car knew it was happening. It's not visible to anyone. It's a silent panic attack because I never want the attention to be on me. So I stopped driving.
Speaker 1:For a long time I avoided driving because I was afraid that something would happen while I was driving. And then they started happening when I was in grocery stores and in checkout lines and around people crowds. I avoid grocery shopping. I avoid being in an airplane and a bus, anything like that. I'm okay being in a car if I'm not driving. I'm okay being at a restaurant if it's outside. I can't be inside a restaurant, I can be. It's just that it's very uncomfortable for me. So I avoid the uncomfortableness. I don't know why they started happening. I don't know why I don't know why they started happening.
Speaker 2:I don't know why, in different situations, anxiety shows up for you in the situations you just described.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think that I've had social anxiety for most of my childhood and life because I moved around a lot as a kid and I was always like the new student and stuff, and then I have always had very stressful jobs. When the panic attacks first started happening, I was at like a really good point in my life.
Speaker 2:So I'm not sure why. Okay, I'm curious. So is your anxiety an always feeling that you feel, or can you recall the last time you felt anxious in any situation?
Speaker 1:Over the last three years it has been like a constant anxiety and I think I do a pretty good job of concealing it and going with the flow. I'm a very patient person, but it's an uncomfortable feeling. I don't drink, I don't do any drugs, so there's nothing to numb it, and so I feel it constantly.
Speaker 2:Do you feel it in this moment, as we're speaking?
Speaker 1:I do, mostly because I'm a little I'm just anxious about this and I was anxious before. Okay, but it comes and goes. So once I get a little bit more used to us talking, I'm sure it'll ease a bit.
Speaker 2:This is like the unknown, right yeah, and when you jump into the unknown, it's okay. What's gonna happen gonna?
Speaker 1:happen here. Yeah, I don't know if it's because I'm like a control freak or okay. I don't think I am, but I could be internally and not show it on the outside. I don't know. I want to be able to trust my decision-making you.
Speaker 2:You now no longer trust yourself in that regard just in that regard. Okay, all in that regard. Okay, all right, let's come back to the anxiety just for a moment, because that's the feeling, right, and so are you still feeling anxious right now, in this moment.
Speaker 1:I feel better, you feel better, okay, so your anxiety has subsided somewhat. Yeah, it's a little bit more peaceful. I don't feel as jittery, okay. So yeah, I feel better.
Speaker 2:It left the building. Okay, what's that like for you right now? Not experiencing anxiety?
Speaker 1:This is what I would like my life to be like constantly. I know that's not possible, because everyone experiences anxiety a little bit here and there, but this is what my life used to be like, where I was able to just have anxiety when I'm having anxious moments instead of constant anxiety, so it feels better okay, again, staying with it just for a moment.
Speaker 2:So, when you feel anxious, can you describe what you actually feel on the private stage of your awareness? What's it like? How do you feel it like in your body and what is? Yeah, what are some of your anxious thoughts?
Speaker 1:so it's like a burning sensation in my stomach. Constantly my heart has palpitations and thoughts. I feel like my thoughts are very disconnected from my body, and so I zone out.
Speaker 2:Can you describe the thoughts or quote the thoughts that you say to you on the private stage of your mind when you feel anxious, not so much to explain what you're thinking, but quote your mind. What do you say to you when you're in the midst of feeling anxious? If you could quote your mind.
Speaker 1:I guess it depends on the situation, but I do doubt myself a lot.
Speaker 2:Okay, good, so you doubt yourself. So could you quote any of your doubt thoughts that you say to you on the private stage of your mind?
Speaker 1:I would say whatever you're saying doesn't make sense. Whatever you're thinking doesn't make sense. Other people aren't going to make sense of what you're saying. I fear judgment. I think Okay.
Speaker 2:So you say, whatever you say is not going to make sense and people are going to judge me. Basically, if I were you, I might say something like no, but I'm not going to make any sense, and if I do try to speak, people are going to judge me. Does that sound like your inner conversation?
Speaker 1:I'm a very quiet person in public and in social interactions. Unless I've known someone for a very long time, I don't speak much because I feel like I don't articulate what I would like to.
Speaker 2:There are certain things that I would like to articulate, but I dare not because somebody might judge me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so. I think that's the best way to put that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 1:Can you imagine that I judge you? I don't imagine that. Because of the setting that we're in and before we started this, I did feel a lot more at peace than I would if I was in like a work setting or a social setting, probably because I'm maybe not going to ever see you again and I don't fear judgment continuously from you. Right, in a work setting, I have to be around or talk to coworkers constantly, or my boss constantly, or friends constantly. There's that fear that if I say something stupid it's going to stick with me for a long time.
Speaker 2:Okay, so that's what I hear. I'm afraid of saying something stupid and people might judge me.
Speaker 1:I'm afraid of saying something stupid and people might judge me. I think that a lot of it comes from the fact that I haven't felt myself really for the last couple of years. I feel like the amount of anxiety that I've had over the last few years has also made me like be in a state of derealization where it's hard to feel feelings because I'm a little bit dissociated and it comes and goes. So sometimes I'm very cold and I don't mean to be, but my brain has done that to protect myself from further anxiety, and so I come off as cold, I come off as not having much emotion, but I don't want it to be that way.
Speaker 2:How do you see yourself now, in this moment?
Speaker 1:I think I'm being personable.
Speaker 2:Try this sentence out and see what shows up for you.
Speaker 1:If I express myself, you might think I'm. If I express myself, you might think I'm cold and I have dry humor, so it might be taken wrong.
Speaker 2:Rude, I don't know. Do you want to know how I observe you so far?
Speaker 1:Yes, I would love to know.
Speaker 2:I experience you anything but cold.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's good.
Speaker 2:I don't experience you as crazy.
Speaker 1:Crazy is a bad word in the mental health profession, right.
Speaker 2:I can hear and appreciate your spirit. There's a lightness about you, just what you've shared here so far and your experience of anxiety. I guess what I'm hearing so far is that, yeah, you are afraid to express yourself out of fear of what others might think. Yeah, I am quite. You are afraid to express yourself out of fear of what others might think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I am quite shy and I used to be very expressive when I was younger.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, I'm really curious about that. Can you go back to a time in your life where you experienced yourself being very expressive and what that was like I used?
Speaker 1:to play guitar and I was really good at guitar. My music teacher would use me a lot in live performances, and so I loved that I would write my own songs. I would perform a lot. I had a folder full of all of my songs that I'd written and it was like my journal, and it was like my journal. I left for basic training when I was 18. And so I left all of my stuff behind because I couldn't take. Anything happened to it. I never saw it again, and so it's kind of like the last time I really wrote a song or ever really played guitar too.
Speaker 2:I got married the year after that. What year was that?
Speaker 1:How old were?
Speaker 2:you, then I was 19.
Speaker 1:Gotcha Pretty young but we're still married. We married going on 10 years, or we are on 10 years, going on 11, and he's a musician and I think that he has very much taken over the spotlight from me, which is crazy to think about. I was obsessed with playing guitar and, honestly, I learned how to play guitar when I was 13. Guitar and, honestly, I learned how to play guitar when I was 13 because I liked him and he knew how to play guitar and so I knew him when I was younger.
Speaker 2:Oh, your husband, you met way back when you were 13. So, gotcha?
Speaker 1:Okay. So yeah, I think he was very into music when we were first married, obviously. So I just he had music and I had work, and so I lost the bat in my life and I lost my songbook and I lost like a lot of my self-expression, which sucks. I've tried other hobbies, I've tried other like means of expression just to have something to express myself with, but nothing's really like stuck.
Speaker 1:I have a lot of hobbies that I do for a year at a time and then I give up and I need something else that I do for a year at a time, and then I give up and I need something else.
Speaker 2:I heard you say a little earlier that I'm afraid of being seen. Is that true? I'm afraid of being seen.
Speaker 1:I don't like the spotlight to be on me.
Speaker 2:I don't like the spotlight, even though you used to love the spotlight.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I felt good, I felt independent and I felt good.
Speaker 2:I felt independent and I felt in charge of what I had going on in my life. Did you say you felt confident? Yeah, confidence in you.
Speaker 1:I did feel confident. And then my job in the military I felt really good in as well. I was very confident in my job. I was very good at my job.
Speaker 2:Curious what that was, what your job in the military was.
Speaker 1:I was a broadcast journalist, interviewing people, working with outside media and pushing the Air Force narrative, if you will, and I really enjoyed that job. It was great and best job in the military and I was very good at it. But it was also a very anxiety inducing job and I think a lot of my early stages of anxiety stemmed from the pressure of that job.
Speaker 2:Let me ask you this Would it make any difference to you in your life and, let's say, your anxiety, if you could somehow some way let go of your fear of what other people might think?
Speaker 1:I think so. Yeah, I think the reason why I'm having panic attacks in public is because it's like a cycle and I'm building up this anxiety cycle and I'm thinking, oh, if I have a panic attack, people are going to see it and then I'm going to have all this attention on me and then I have a panic attack because I'm having anxiety about having a panic attack.
Speaker 2:You feel anxious about feeling anxious.
Speaker 1:Yes, but I still don't understand why the first panic attack I had was in the car. I just don't understand that at all. And it was a big one. It was the biggest anxiety attack or panic attack that I've had. It was so big that I thought that I was potentially having a seizure. I was like what is happening? Because I'd never experienced that before.
Speaker 2:Can you describe it, the sensation that you experienced?
Speaker 1:So it's kind of like this energy that started from my toes and went all the way up my body, energy that started from my toes and went all the way up my body. I couldn't speak, I could hear, and I was frozen in time where I didn't feel right like moving my hands and legs, and I wasn't having any issues breathing. I never have any problems breathing when I'm having a panic attack. It's just my heart goes through the roof. I get hot, nauseous, I feel like I'm going to pass out. That's the gist of it.
Speaker 1:It usually lasts for about two minutes but, it's like the worst two minutes of my life.
Speaker 2:What's so unpleasant about it for you to experience those experiences so unpleasant about it for you to experience those experiences.
Speaker 1:It's a moment of loss of control and I'm afraid something bad is going to happen.
Speaker 2:Something bad's going to happen.
Speaker 1:Okay, Can you imagine just for a moment the worst of the worst that you imagine could happen. When I'm driving, obviously, the worst of the worst would be crashing my car. But when I'm in a public space where I'm just standing in line, or at a restaurant, the worst of the worst is just passing out. That's not that big of a deal, and I've had this conversation with myself. I've thought Christina, what are you thinking? Why are you so anxiety-ridden about passing out? There are people out there with severe disabilities and severe issues where they have things going on in public all the time. Why are you so worried about passing out in public? Why?
Speaker 2:Why Do you have an answer to that question, why? Why Do you have an answer to that question?
Speaker 1:Just the attention that would be on me. I'm afraid of the attention I might get attention and also I'm afraid of other people's judgment of me For sure, and I think another reason that I'm scared is I have a five-year-old and when I'm out and about with him and just me and him I'm fearful that I'll pass out and something bad will happen to him, like he'll run off and get hit by a car, or like someone will be like where's your mom, and that's what I'm scared of.
Speaker 2:That's what you're afraid of, but that's never happened.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:That never happened, okay, no?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've only ever passed out once from having a panic attack, and I was 12.
Speaker 2:12?.
Speaker 1:And that was the only time I ever had a panic attack before three years ago. There was a huge gap of time between that and the last three years, so I don't know why my life.
Speaker 2:All right, as you're sharing. It's certainly evoking my curiosity here. Could you go back to 12 years old At that period of your life? Can you describe what that period of your life was like in your world, in your life, your situation, perhaps your family, school and so on?
Speaker 1:yeah, we had just moved to probably the 12th place that I'd lived in and I was still able to go to the same school that I had for the last few years, which was nice, because at that point I'd been to 10 schools and didn't really want to have to change schools again. So I was at that school for three years at that point, or no, two years. Nothing really crazy was going on in my life. As far as I wasn't being bullied, I wasn't having any issues at school. I was always a very good student.
Speaker 2:Do you remember the moment that you experienced that anxiety? What was occurring in the moment?
Speaker 1:I do. I was doing a bad thing.
Speaker 2:Okay, tell me about the bad thing you did, if you don't mind.
Speaker 1:I had smoked weed.
Speaker 2:Okay, 12 years old smoked weed Okay.
Speaker 1:Yep, and my dad? He was a big pothead.
Speaker 1:So I had stolen some weed from him and I had gone to hang out with some friends and we all were engaging in illegal activities. At the time I can't even remember. I think I was 10 or 11. At the time I can't even remember I think I was 10 or 11. And I had some friends that were a little bit older than me they were 12 when I was 10 and they had bad parents. They were big potheads. They would smoke inside the house when I was little, so I was pretty much constantly contact high my entire childhood. Obviously, I shouldn't have been smoking weed at that age, which is terrible, but since I had that panic attack, never touched it ever again.
Speaker 2:Okay, so when you go back to the moment you experienced that panic attack, like where were you, who was there and what happened in the moment that panic attack emerged and what happened in the moment that panic attack emerged, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I had walked to some friend's house, it was snowy and we were outside and we were walking back to their house. I was walking up a hill and I blacked out, totally blacked out, for I don't know how long it must've been at, like you know, 10, 15 seconds, but I could not. I was feeling very strange, very dissociated. I kept putting snow on my face because I couldn't feel my body. I kept asking the same things over and over again, and my friend had to walk me home, which was a long walk. My mom didn't know at the time that's what was going on. She thought that I was drunk because I was just so weirdly out of it not how most people are when they smoke weed and then I continued to be out of it for a few months. It really messed me up and I started looking into like why am I feeling this way? What is going on? And so that was the first time I ever had a panic attack, last time I ever touched weed, and so I always associated getting high with that feeling. So I never wanted to do it again. But then, when I started having panic attacks three years ago, do it again. But then when I started having panic attacks three years ago. I was like did I accidentally ingest weed or something? Cause that's what it felt like to me. I thought, did someone, like, slip me a brownie or a cookie or something? Cause that was the exact same feeling.
Speaker 1:And I have continuously felt messed up for three years. So I'm thinking why do I feel like it's a weird association that I've had with panic attacks and weed? But I don't smoke weed. I stopped drinking coffee two months ago because I thought maybe my cortisol levels are shot from too much caffeine and I think it's helped a little bit. I don't drink alcohol anymore because when I started having all the anxiety over the last couple of years, it just became worse because it would numb the anxiety and then when I wasn't drinking, it was a full rush of feelings when I'm sober. And I also had a panic attack when I had a beer or two and that was a terrible feeling. Having a panic attack while slightly buzzed not a good feeling at all. Super strange feeling. So, yeah, I was out in public and so I was like didn't want to deal with it anymore either okay, all right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one thing that I'm curious about is your inner conversation you experience when you're in the midst of feeling this anxiety, and I guess one of the things that stands out for me that you get into is something bad's going to happen. Is that right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Something bad's going to happen, so I've got to brace myself for whatever bad thing I'm imagining is going to happen. I better brace myself, basically.
Speaker 1:Yeah, would you say that? That's exactly it, and it prevents me from living my life.
Speaker 2:Exactly Right yeah.
Speaker 1:It's awful. I've been stuck in this mindset for three years. Going on three years. July will be three years and I feel like I get pretty down on myself sometimes because I get down on myself, pretty down on myself sometimes, because I get down on myself.
Speaker 2:So I'm really curious about that. How do you get down on yourself? What again, looking at your inner conversation or inner monologue, what do you say to you that expresses you being down on yourself? Can you quote your mind, your shit together, okay. Well, hold on Anything else that you say to you other than Christina, get your shit together. You're taking happy moments away from your kid. You're unable to depend on yourself. You're unable to be depended on by anyone else, okay.
Speaker 2:That's an expression of how you come down on yourself those thoughts okay that's an expression of how you come down on yourself those thoughts. Would it make any difference to you if you could somehow some way eliminate or let go of those thoughts?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think. So I think I'm doing okay despite the way that I'm feeling, but you're doing okay despite the way that I'm feeling.
Speaker 2:But, you're doing okay. You're doing okay, despite feeling anxious.
Speaker 1:You're saying yes, I think I hold it together pretty well, despite not feeling confident being in public, because I do have months and months at a time where I don't go anywhere. I stay home. Luckily, we live in a modern world where I'm able to accommodate for my like instead of going grocery shopping, I can do a grocery pickup, so that's great.
Speaker 2:Well, let's talk. Just what is anxiety? In general, you're expressing it, but you mentioned control. I'm afraid of losing control. I'm afraid of not keeping it together kind of thing or something terrible is going to happen. Live in the imaginary future. This, this could happen, and I've got to do everything to prevent or control that imaginary event from happening. We will freeze ourselves basically. In other words, as you said earlier, we don't give ourselves freedom to be or to find out what the actual future would hold for us. Mark Twain said my whole life has been about worrying about things that never happened.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the definition of anxiety, right there.
Speaker 2:Exactly yeah. And, like you said, you're afraid of feeling afraid or anxious about feeling anxious, and you put yourself into this freeze mode. In other words, there's no freedom to be. I can't allow myself to find out what may happen, so I'm continually trying to brace myself from the worst of the worst kind of thing. Consider this also what anxiety has a lot to do with our thinking, what we think or imagine. A lot to do with our thinking, what we think or imagine and perhaps what we tell ourselves about ourselves. When you consider these thoughts that you think, if you could let these thoughts go, would it make any difference to yourself and your life and perhaps your anxiety? Oh, absolutely Okay. But what possible difference? Christina's going through life free of anxiety, free of fear, free of doom and gloom? What possible difference would it make to yourself and your life if you were going through life free of that?
Speaker 1:and freer, obviously, and just being able to smile and enjoy every moment and not be so like messed up after a panic attack. That's the part that is really bothersome to me, because it's really hard for me to bring myself back to reality. But if the panic attack doesn't happen, then that doesn't happen. So getting rid of the panic attack, or getting rid of all that anxiety that builds up to the panic attack, is probably the step for me that I need to focus on, but also not worrying so much about the things that lead to the panic attack.
Speaker 2:Okay, so say these words and see how they resonate. I produce my own anxiety.
Speaker 1:I produce my own anxiety Is that true, all right.
Speaker 2:So, given that I produce my own anxiety, is it within the realm of possibility that I could let these anxious thoughts go?
Speaker 1:Is that possible? I would love it.
Speaker 2:I would love to be able to let things go and just not dwell.
Speaker 1:I have a rumination problem where I don't know how to stop it. Distraction I need to distract myself. I try distracting myself but I dwell and things just build and it's a problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're also looking at what creates it. What's your thinking, what's your imagination? And we're talking about the possibility. If you could let go of these thinkings, what difference it might make to your life. You'd be a happier human being, right human being that you produce your own anxiety. Is it within the realm of possibility that you could let your anxious thoughts go?
Speaker 1:yeah, I want to be able to do that.
Speaker 2:Do you notice any fear or resistance to letting them go?
Speaker 1:Absolutely not. I want them to go away. I want them all to go away. Are you willing to let them go? I want to say yes, I want to. I am willing to let them go. I'm physically willing to let them go. I don't know if my brain is willing to let them go.
Speaker 2:You want your brain to be willing to let them go. Let them go. Okay, yeah, okay, all right, coming back to this present moment does any other time but now exist, by the way.
Speaker 1:Any other time, but now no.
Speaker 2:The past is completely over, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It is, and I'm a firm believer in not dwelling on the past, because there's nothing you can do to change what has happened right. You can only change how you respond in the now and in the future exactly you can take the past as a learning lesson and move forward. I try not to have any regrets poems about what has happened. Just try to change the way I handle things going forward.
Speaker 2:Does a future exist?
Speaker 1:I think the idea of the future exists.
Speaker 2:It's an idea isn't it, but does it exist?
Speaker 1:That's a very interesting question.
Speaker 2:Does a future exist? Does tomorrow exist? Yes, tomorrow exists.
Speaker 1:We're going to go to sleep and wake up.
Speaker 2:Time is manmade right, but you're going to do something right after this conversation and you're going to do something this evening and tomorrow and so on. Yeah, but the truth is you're not doing those things right now, are you?
Speaker 1:No, you're just planning for it.
Speaker 2:essentially, it's all a planning, but the actuality of the future never exists, does it?
Speaker 1:No, I would say no, then With that, everything's in the now, and so when you're dealing with what you've got going on, you can only really handle it in the now, and so when you're dealing with what you've got going on, you can only really handle it in the now.
Speaker 2:Exactly, yeah. So, coming back to this present moment, are you aware of any anxiety at all in this moment, right now?
Speaker 1:I feel better. I'm feeling better.
Speaker 2:Okay, try this just as a little experiment. If you would try to consciously, if you would bring back an experience of anxiety since you're the creator of anxiety anyway see if you can actually bring back the experience or the feeling of anxiety, at least just for a moment. Okay, so, are you present to any?
Speaker 1:amount of anxiety right now at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, all right. So go ahead and see, without trying to figure out how. Go ahead and just see if you could let that anxiety go just for now. Let that anxiety go just for now. Consider the thing that you have to deal with that's anxiety-inducing, is your thoughts?
Speaker 1:Okay?
Speaker 2:Is that true? Wherever you are? It's not the situation, necessarily, is it? I know you assign certain situations as more anxiety producing than others, but is it not your thinking that produces that anxiety?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's always the unknown.
Speaker 2:Exactly, it's the thought of the unknown. Consider this there's nothing to fear about the unknown.
Speaker 1:I think I used to really believe that before I had a kid. I really did. I was very free spirited, very light, but having a kid totally changes your brain into thinking about so many scary things. I think I've just internalized a lot of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is getting back to what we do to produce our own anxieties.
Speaker 2:We get into imagining the worst of the worst situations and I think with you, I'm hearing, okay, yeah, maybe I'll just lose control and this may happen and that may happen, and this may happen and that may happen, and then you also end up coming down on yourself right, beating yourself up, kind of thing.
Speaker 2:You get into that thinking and so we're talking about the possibility Could I let those thinkings go or let those thinkings flow? We're talking about the possibility of releasing these thoughts and to recognize that you have a say-so over your thinking. It's not a matter of trying not to feel anxious. It's really a matter of letting go of your thoughts that produce the anxiety, the imagining, the fear of losing control and so on on, and how horrible and terrible that would be if that occurred, and how I opened myself up to other people's judgments and they would think this or that of me yeah, and what's funny is I don't typically care what people think of me as far as what I'm wearing, what I like, what I, what I do for work, how I am as a parent.
Speaker 1:I'm just afraid of passing out and having people worry about me. I don't know.
Speaker 2:I'm afraid of passing out and people worrying about me. So if I could let go of the fear of passing out and people worrying about me, that might make a difference.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I would think so.
Speaker 1:I feel like that would help me with my avoidant behavior, because for a year and a half I didn't drive a car, I didn't go into a grocery store, I hardly left the house. So if you can imagine just how miserable that is as a mom too, and not being like at the time my kiddo was three or two, three, four, five all that time just not being able to have the courage to do what I wanted to do as a parent. And before all this happened I was just such an active mom. We would go to amusement parks, we would go to the zoo, we would go to aquariums, that kind of thing, no limit. I was all about everything.
Speaker 1:And then just one day, the panic attack started and it completely changed my entire life. It made me avoidant and it made me just want to be home all the time for fear of my own safety and my kids' safety. It completely changed the way I am as a parent. Luckily I have a husband who is understanding of my issues and he has really stepped up in being the one that takes our kiddo places or engages with him out of the house and that kind of thing. But it still makes me feel a bit of a failure of a mom.
Speaker 2:Yeah gotcha. Another thing about being a parent changes your whole life. Your life is not the same, and so all kinds of thoughts and fears and the mother in you gets activated and protective and so on. So yeah.
Speaker 2:I know we could go on exploring this probably a little further, but we are coming to the end of our conversation here, and so let's the way we end is a little bit the way we begin, and that is to address the question what am I experiencing in this moment coming to a close? And then a few words. Just how do I feel about this conversation we just had?
Speaker 1:What I'm experiencing in this moment is insight. I think that I have gained some insight into the why and how I can prevent some things in the future, prevent the thoughts of anxiety. How I feel about this conversation is this was very enlightening and nice and much better than I anticipated. I didn't expect it to be this conversational. I think you're, from what I can tell, very beneficial to people. It's hard to find a good therapist and just from the conversation that we've had in the last hour I could tell you really care and you really listen and you actually want to help people get to the root of what's going on with them. I've had quite a few therapists in the last few years. I can tell you truly have a gift for therapy, which is nice to see.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I appreciate it. Thank you I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Thank you, this has been fun yeah.
Speaker 2:Anxiety and guilt are typically the two things that bring people into therapy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a lot.
Speaker 2:It's at the heart of many things, so I appreciate your openness to express your feelings here to a stranger.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I appreciate your feedback that you just gave. So what I want for you, I guess, is to continue to call it mindful. In other words, seek not to try to escape your anxiety. Seek not to try to escape your anxiety. Learn to be present to it, to the experience of it, because that will more and more enable you to move through it, versus trying to escape it, Because that's one of the things that keeps certain feelings going is the trying not to feel it. I often you know what is therapy about, really. I summarize it very simply Therapy is about unconcealing, revealing and dealing with feelings. So you've unconcealed your anxiety and you dealt with it a little bit here. You revealed it to yourself and I know it's familiar to you. Then what is the dealing with feelings is? Basically, it's a learning to accept my feelings the way they are, to feel my feelings and to move through your feelings. One of the statements that was at the heart of a lot of therapy is the way out of feelings is through them.
Speaker 2:So you need not be afraid of your anxiety. Learn to make friends with your anxiety and not as an enemy kind of to yourself.
Speaker 1:I think I do need to start looking at it more that way, as this is a part of me and I can accept it and I can just deal and go through life with this. It's part of my personality at this point, it's just who I am. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:The other thing is I see your light. Thank you, you're a light. Yeah, it comes through. I try.
Speaker 2:I try to be Well, you don't even have to try, you know. You know your light is your light. You know, the more you're able to move through all the stuff that hides it, you know, then your light just naturally shines. Yeah, very nice to meet you and interview you and I wish you well and I wish you continued growth in your journey. This human journey and it sounds like anxiety is your thing to work through yes, it's my thing.
Speaker 1:I've appreciated this so much. Thank you for your time today. This was great all right, all right.
Speaker 2:Okay, go in peace.
Speaker 1:Okay, you too, bye.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening to this edition of Eyewitness to Therapy. If you, the listener, desire to be interviewed in a similar fashion as this one, feel free to contact me at courtcurtis at yahoocom. Peace, love and presence.
