You Can Plan Without Feeding Worry

Worry can masquerade as “being prepared,” but what happens when the prep turns into a nonstop mental movie of everything that could go wrong? We sit down with JC for a one-time, real therapy session as she steps into a new missions job building software tools for Bible translation and scripture engagement. The work excites her. The pressure comes from the people side: raising monthly donor support, traveling to an in-person training, and trying to communicate clearly when social cues feel hard to read.

JC speaks candidly about being autistic and living with sensory processing challenges. Crowds, loud rooms, strong smells, touch, and unfamiliar environments can overwhelm her focus, and subtle facial expressions can be easy to miss. That uncertainty fuels a deep fear: if she misunderstands someone, she might seem rude, lose trust, or even lose support. We explore how she copes today, including asking for direct verbal feedback, deciding when to educate someone about the autism spectrum, and when a simple smile and a topic change protects the relationship.

Then we go straight at the core loop: “I’m worried that I won’t be worried.” Together we separate useful planning from unhelpful anxiety, map the real costs of stress, and test a Gestalt therapy exercise that shifts attention into the body and turns the worry dial down in the moment. If you’ve ever wanted practical anxiety tools that still respect the need to plan, this conversation gives you a clear place to start.

Subscribe for more real therapy work, share this with someone who overthinks for a living, and leave a review with one strategy that helps you plan without spiraling.

For tools and techniques on awareness, forgiveness, and movement visit...

https://www.wayofawareness.com/

Transcript

What This Therapy Podcast Is

SPEAKER_02 0:23

Welcome to Eyewitness to Therapy, the one-of-a-kind podcast that focuses on a real-life therapy situation. I'm your host, Court Curtis, psychologist and therapist, passionate about bringing you into an immersive experience of self-awareness through therapy. In each episode, we dive deep into the struggles our guest faces and guide them on a journey of self-discovery and resolution. As your dedicated therapist, my purpose is to create a safe space where you can openly share and address your issues. We'll explore the power of the present moment in resolving your concerns, knowing that the past is completely over and the future is never yet. The key to healing lies in awareness, in being witness to your consciousness. And that's precisely what we'll uncover together in every episode of Eyewitness to Therapy. So join us as we navigate the transformative power of therapy and self-awareness. Welcome to another episode of Eyewitness to Therapy. Every individual that I interview in this podcast has volunteered to participate in a one-time therapy session. And so I'm happy to welcome a new guest today. This is the first time we have ever met, so I know virtually nothing about this person other than from a very brief questionnaire that they filled out prior to this meeting. Every guest's identity is anonymous. All therapy is centered around the guest's issues and goals. Whatever they bring forth into the session becomes the focus of our conversation. And my goal is to be helpful in the best way I can. Gestalt therapy is all about living in the moment, and that is exactly where we start each session. I ask my guest to take a moment and allow a word or short phrase to bubble up in consciousness that simply names their here and now experience. And then I have them expound on that word, what that word says of them, about them, or about anything. And then I ask that they declare an intention for the session. An intention can be anything, such as what they hope to gain from the session or want help with. Declaring an intention from the outset helps frame our conversation and also serves to create a purpose and goal for our session. And then lastly, we end each session the way we begin, with just a word that names their here and now experience as we come to the close of our conversation, as well as a few words about how they feel about our session. Is there a takeaway, an insight, or realization that they gained from our meeting together? That's the question. So come along with us as we step into this journey of exploration. Where the conversation goes, nobody knows. But that's also the excitement of therapy. A step into the unknown of possibilities. So without further ado, let's welcome our new guest.

Naming The Feeling: Worry

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Okay. I think we're good. Good afternoon, and welcome to our meeting. Can you drink you? And then you like to uh go by the name of JC, is that right? Yes. Okay, good, excellent. All right. Yeah, so welcome to our meeting here. Just to lay a little groundwork for our meeting with the opportunity here is to create a space for you to bring forth anything that you might be working on or dealing with or addressing in your life. And to bring that into our meeting today for opening up some kind of discussion that might be helpful to you in some way or another. This is the way we start each meeting is actually to take a moment to turn your attention inward on yourself, your life, your situation, whatever areas of your life you might engage in, including your here and now. And then go ahead and speak just a a single word or series of single words that name something or anything in each or all or any of these areas. One word, if you can boil it all down to one word or a series of single words. And then we'll go from there.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Worry.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

That kind of sum it up. Yep. Okay, the other question, the other invitation is also to look and see to answer this question. Is there anything I'd like to feel by the end of our meeting today? Let's say if I could feel anything, is there anything I'd like to feel?

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Not worried?

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Not worried? Okay. That sounds great. Feel free to expound on this word, whatever this word says of you, about your about anything, or if you're coming in with anything in particular you would like to focus on, we will go in whatever direction you desire our conversation to go.

New Mission Job And Fundraising Anxiety

SPEAKER_01 5:23

I would say right now I'm worried about this new job that I've taken on and basically how I'm going to do it. It's a not conventional job. I'm joining an organization where you have to raise your own salary, basically. You go around to individuals, churches, you tell them what good program you're going to be working on. If, and then once you're at 100% of your ministry budget, then you're able to go and do your mission, basically. And it's to help people. So I'm not sure how I'm going to go around to people and communicate with them what is going on. And I don't know how I'm going to work around some of my own different special needs as I do this, like some of my sensory issues, some of the issues of reading body language and facial expressions and social nuances, those issues that come with autism. So I'm just not sure how I'm going to navigate all these different things. Plus, there's a conference coming up where I'm going to be in a different environment. I'm doing a plane flight, which I haven't done since I was a baby, and I'm wondering how I'm going to get through that. And it's going to be a busy week in a different place, and new locations are hard for people with autism. So there's a lot that's going to be going on, and I'm a bit worried about it.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Oh, okay. So I want to follow you here. So you're anticipating a new job situation, and then you're going to your church or ministry where they will be supporting you financially. Is this okay? Okay. So that's the idea there. I'm curious, how would they support you in, let's say, getting this job?

SPEAKER_01 6:57

So different individuals and churches, I will invite them to partner with me in prayer and finance. I will need enough monthly donors to get to my target ministry budget amount before I'm released to my assignment officially by the missions organization. But I do need people to pray for me definitely. So it's those two things that I'll be asking people for. And then once I have those partners, it'll be my job to keep a relationship with them, check in on them, see how they're doing, and support them. And they will be supporting me with encouragement as well as through finance and prayer.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

So this would be a job within the context of the ministry you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

I'll basically be it's not a ministry of a specific church. It's a worldwide organization. And the people who join this organization, they go around to their churches, the people they know, and then they get references and expand from there and invite those people to support the missionary so that they can do this worldwide mission.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

Okay. So you're the missionary.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 8:01

Basically. Okay. I'm just curious also, what's the nature of the job that you'll be doing or that you intend to be doing?

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Instead of me being on the ground and telling people about Jesus or something like that, I'm going to actually be working on software technology for Bible translation and scripture engagement. So I'm more of a behind-the-scenes worker, but these software tools are being used by millions of people around the world. So it is a kind of important job.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

So it's a software translation, or in other words, it has to do with the Bible? Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Other missionaries will and local language communities will use the software that I'm working on to translate the Bible and to make scripture accessible to people in their own language. It also is for literacy, which just helps people have a better life in general and has lots of different protections and things like that come with being literate. So there are a lot of good benefits to this. And so the people on the ground will be using this software, and I'm going to be working on the software behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

So you have the job?

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

Got the job. Okay. And so what's your main worry then? What am I worried about mostly? What yeah, can you specify that?

SPEAKER_01 9:10

If I had to boil it down to particular worries, I'd say the most upcoming worry is the training, the in-person training I'll be attending, just navigating the flight and with different autism special needs issues there and being able to engage with the training and learn from it while also managing the different sensory issues and things like that. And then after that, I'll have a new problem, which would be going to churches and individuals and inviting them to support me. And there'll be issues that come with that, like the sensory issues of being in a big crowd or the some of the social nuances, like I won't be able to read people's facial expressions to see if I'm communicating well to them. I can't read yours right now to see if I'm being clear or not. So I rely on verbal feedback and a very clear verbal feedback too. So that's another problem. And then I guess a third worry that I hadn't really mentioned is this. I knew when I signed up for this that my monthly income, once I'm established and everything, is going to be up and down because supporters have to drop off, new supporters come, things like that. I guess I always have that baseline worry of what if there won't be enough or stuff? I know God will provide, but I have that just natural worry.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

Oh, okay. So worry is natural to you.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

Yes, very natural.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

So you consider yourself a worrier?

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Oh, definitely.

Autism Needs: Sensory And Social Cues

unknown 10:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

And then also, are you are you saying that you you are autistic? Yes, I'm autistic. Okay, you've been diagnosed autistic. And and what does that mean for you? What does being autistic mean for you? I'm curious about that.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

So I met the requirements for autism in rigid behavior. I had to stick to my routine, or it's very stressful for me. And then there are some other different rigid things that I do, like making my own rules that I have to follow, or it seems like the world will end, even though I intellectually know it won't, but it just seems like that. Then I've got the sensory issues that come along, and those are one of my biggest problems, like big crowds, loud noises, di different sensations, like with physical touch, strong smells. Those things bother me so much that I can't think about anything else, and they can even be physically painful because my brain interprets it wrong. And then there are there's the social aspect of it where I can't read people's facial expressions except some very obvious ones. I've learned angry sometimes. If it's subtle, I don't know it. But if it's very angry and very well expressed, then I can understand it. Or if it's a big smile, then I will assume they are happy. Although then it is true that some people smile when they're actually not happy, but I'm going to just assume they are happy because I don't know any better. So that's another problem that comes through. And then if people speak in figurative language like, it touched my heart, I'm going to be like, why would you want someone touching your heart? That's like open heart surgery. If it's not a doctor, that would be very dangerous. And I'll tell them all the reasons they should not have someone touch their heart. And then some other more subtle things, like if someone's not interested in talking to me anymore, people have told me that they might stop looking you in the eye, they might turn their body away, but I don't pick up on that very well. I'm trying to learn to be better at that and I am improving, but sometimes I still miss those cues and eye contact is hard for me or things like that.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

Do you have a sense of how you're picking me up right now?

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Right now, you've got a smiley face and a frowny face at the same time. I've learned that if eyebrows go down, that means unhappy. So it could be like any of a million things. That's the other hard thing. But then you also sometimes do the smile at the same time. So maybe it means you're unhappy and also happy at the same time, which maybe you're happy about what you're gonna eat for dinner, but you're unhappy about what I'm saying. Is there anything you would like to check out with me, just in terms of what you think I guess if you told me what the face meant, I could file that away for future reference.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

Uh okay. Well, I'm not sure what my face means. I'm just being how I'm being. But I'm very interested here in you and your situation and what you're experiencing here. And seeking to understand, too. I think I get the overall picture of your situation and what you're trying to do and the job situation that you're anticipating doing and so on. So I'm curious. May maybe do you see curiosity?

SPEAKER_01 13:26

I just see the eyebrows down, but I also see the smile. Those are the two things I can pick up here. And so sometimes eyebrows down or face scrunched up a little bit, I've learned, can mean focusing on something. So you could be focusing intently on trying to figure me out.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

Okay. When you read people a certain way, do you ever check it out with them in terms of what they're actually thinking or feeling in the moment? Is that something that you ever do or could do, just like you did just now, for example?

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Sometimes I do it with people I know well who won't be like, why are you asking that? That's silly. Of course you know it. Or that's what the response is that I get from a lot of people. Of course you know what I'm saying, even though I'm using language that you don't understand. They don't acknowledge that I have these difficulties. So they think I'm being sarcastic or rude or just annoying.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

I think one thing you're saying, obviously when we meet somebody for the first time, we have first impressions, right? It's like you see how this person is with you, and you might have some initial impressions, but sometimes those impressions can change and transform as we go along. But sometimes you might just be interested in, okay, maybe how do you feel, or asking the person, how do you feel right now, or just inquiring into their experience, just like what you did just now.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

And with people who understand autism, I can be honest and say, I don't understand what your facial expression or twone of voice or body language means right now. Could you please explain it to me? And then the people who understand are happy to do that, and that really helps me.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

I see. Okay, gotcha. Okay, so coming back down to to worry then. Okay. So see if you can boil it all down here. Uh you you you mentioned here already. I'm worried if you can just say it in a couple of sentences or so. I I'm worried that or I'm worried about fill in the blank.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

I'm worried about how I'm going to navigate the autism and sensory processing disorder in this new job. And uh sometimes I'm worried about what I'll do when funds run low.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

Okay, so you're anticipating funds running low?

SPEAKER_01 15:26

It's part of what you're supposed to expect when you come in that there will be times when there's plenty and there'll be times when there's a bit less.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

Okay. So you're worried about how you might, I guess I hear it. You're worried about how you might engage with others in this new job situation, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

Is that right? Okay. And then okay, so you're worried about how you might, am I here, how you might interpret other people's reactions to you, just what you're experiencing here?

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

Okay. So you don't trust sounds like you you lack a certain trust in what people are showing? I lack Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

I lack trust in my understanding of it because I've been proven wrong so many times.

SPEAKER_02 16:08

Okay, you lack trust in your understanding. Okay. So I'm afraid I just might not understand. And what would be the consequence of that for you if you didn't understand something?

SPEAKER_01 16:19

If I didn't understand something and I did the wrong thing, people could think I'm being rude to them. They could think I'm just being mean to them. They're obviously not going to want to support me if I do any of those things, but I can also mess up friendships or relationships when you do the wrong thing and don't even know it, or you don't know how to fix it, or they don't, they're not willing to forgive you because they don't realize you made a mistake and you didn't mean to. So those can all be different problems there. And I'm also worried about how I'll be able to communicate the things I want to tell people in a way that they'll understand and not take the wrong way. Cause people read so much into the things that I say when I oftentimes I'm just meaning the plain, just language meaning, it's it's so hard for me to figure out what the two billion hidden meanings people are gonna read into what I say are gonna be and how they'll respond and how

When People Doubt The Diagnosis

SPEAKER_01 17:07

I'll figure it out.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

And so have you experienced that difficulty in other situations?

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Yes. If I even just ask a simple question like, what are you doing? If someone thinks it should be very clear to me that they are exceedingly busy and I should not be asking them what they're doing right now, or if they think what they're doing is obvious, or if they think it's none of my business, or any of those different issues, then they could get offended when I'm just curious. And maybe I even am thinking of following up with, can I help you? But I haven't said that yet. But they might think I'm just being nosy or anything like that. So that's an example of how it can backfire on me.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

Okay. Can you go back to the last time that occurred? And with whom, in what situation?

SPEAKER_01 17:47

This morning, my mom was telling me that she'd been summoned for jewel duty and she will get paid for that, which she is very happy about. And I was happy for her, and I knew that she also could use money from other jobs and stuff too. So I told her you could probably also make money from, and I told her a couple things that we'd discussed before in the past, and I was just bringing it up again because I really think that she could do those well and make money from it. And she was flustered and upset with me because she was she's been really busy. And so she thought that I was pressuring her to go and make a bunch of money and can I see how busy she is and all that stuff. So I misinterpreted what she wanted from that situation and whether my response was appropriate at that time or not. And appropriately it was not the appropriate time to talk about other ways she can make money.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

So she became upset with you because you offered a suggested other ways to make money?

SPEAKER_01 18:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

She felt pressured or something by that?

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Yes. And the ways to make money in her mind, I'm pretty sure that wasn't the goal of the conversation. I think the goal of the conversation was to share something with me and not to get so I think that's how it went wrong. I'm not sure because I haven't followed up on it, but I will later and I'll figure out what I did wrong.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

I see. Okay. So she became, would you call her defensive?

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Okay, out of your suggestion. And so your experience out of her reaction was that you had done something wrong?

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Yes. That I had I had said something that at the ver at a very wrong time to say it.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Oh, okay. I said something at a very wrong time to say it. Okay. All right. And you uh measured that by her reaction to you?

SPEAKER_01 19:25

Yes. I with her, I since I've been around her so long, like 20 some years, I've figured I've picked up on some of her body language and voice signals. So if she changes her voice in a certain way, I know I should be afraid of it, or not really afraid, but concerned. And if she gives me a funny sort of look that my brain has figured out with her specifically, then I'm like, I said something wrong. And since each person has their own specific upset look, then I can figure it out with a specific person if I've been around them long enough. But that information doesn't carry on to other people, like with I think a neurotypical's brain. So that's why I can't just be like, oh, I see everyone has that face sometimes. I don't get that. But with her, I figured it out.

SPEAKER_02 20:08

So does this describe your history with this is your mother? Uh your history with your mother in terms of how you sometimes have difficulty reading her or something?

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Yes. I with everyone, I've had trouble knowing what the topic of conversation is, what is appropriate to bring up what I should or shouldn't say at this time and and how they're feeling and how that should impact what I say to them or what I don't say. So that's difficult for me. I have a great relationship with my mom, and once she feels less tired, I'll be able to definitely approach her and find out what I did wrong. And she'll give me pointers on what I can do with other people in the future so I don't have that situation. So she'll help me, but I just know that I messed up this morning.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

Okay. Would you describe your mother as critical?

SPEAKER_01 20:56

No, I don't think she's very critical. She's analytical. My dad's the more emotional side. My mom's the more logical and reason side. My dad can be reasonable too, but he can get carried away by emotions a bit. But my mom, she'll evaluate what I'm doing and whether it's going to serve me well in my life or not, and how it's affecting me, how it's affecting others, and then she'll try and help me improve future situations because she loves me and wants to help me out.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

She so she evaluates you?

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Yes. She evaluates my performance.

SPEAKER_02 21:26

Your performance or your behavior regarding certain situations?

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

Okay. And then she gives you pointers on how you might improve or change.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Yes. She's like my own personal therapist.

SPEAKER_02 21:39

Okay. So the kind of pointers that she gives you are helpful? Very helpful. All right. And then and then you this kind of characterizes your relationship with your mom going all the way back, way, way back, kind of thing?

SPEAKER_01 21:52

We didn't know that I had autism until about eight when I was 18, about four years ago. So she had a hard time Understanding some of the things that I would do, the troubles I would have, or whether I didn't or did understand her. And she wasn't really able to help me specifically like she has now. Now she understands, oh, Heather's got autism. That means she doesn't understand what I just said because it's a metaphor. Let me explain it to her. Or she walked into the room and asked what I'm doing. And she did that because she might be curious or something, but she did not mean to pressure me to do more things or

Worry Loops And Worst Case Scenarios

SPEAKER_01 22:28

to interrupt me or anything like that. So she can now step back from her own neurotypical response and be like, okay, what does Heather mean? And how am I taking this? And how can I help Heather navigate these future situations better?

SPEAKER_02 22:43

I see. Oh, okay. All right. And how old are you now?

SPEAKER_01 22:47

I'm 22.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

22. And so you were first diagnosed with autism when? How long ago?

SPEAKER_01 22:52

I was 18. So four, about five years ago, because I'm almost 23.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Okay. All right. So you experienced that somehow as an impairment in your life? This being autistic kind of thing? Yes. All right. And just in the ways that you're I guess I hear you describing in terms of your interactions with others, right? In terms of what somebody might mean, or as you're talking to them, are they understanding what I'm talking about or meaning? And so there's often a big question that comes up in terms of the meaning of being communicated? Would you say? Yes. Oh, okay. All right. We'll stay with worry then. Okay, so you're worried uh about what you're worried about here in terms of how you're going to be with others. I guess I hear it's worry in your own self-confidence, or perhaps l feeling a lack of self-confidence.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

I would say I'm confident in the things I know I do well, like the job I'm going into, the software side, I know I'm going to be good at that because I already have been good at it. So it's not like I have a low self-esteem or general low confidence. It's just that I've looked at my track record with people interactions, and I'm not confident there because I don't have a reason to be exceedingly confident there.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

But as far as the actual work that you'll be doing, you have a lot of confidence in that, the software side of things.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

That'll be the easy part. I'm actually already working on the project as a volunteer right now, and we're happy as a clam. Or I think that's what the saying is. It means that you're happy.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Uh-huh. Happy as a clam.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

I don't know how happy clams are, but people say that's what you say when you're happy.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Okay. All right. Would you say you're happy as a clam?

SPEAKER_01 24:32

With the work that I do, I'm happy as a clam.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

And how assuming I understand how happy clams are.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

But just in terms of how things are going, at least so far, you can say I'm happy about how things are going so far? In other words, none of none of these worries, at least as of yet, have materialized. Is that what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Yes, that's correct.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

So, well, what's gone right here for you, just in terms of what you're talking about?

SPEAKER_01 25:00

I got through all the extensive interviews to get the job. I had to do a whole home church interview with, I got a really big church. So this was a big deal to get a meeting with that pastor. And then he's worked with lots of different people. So I knew he was going to be judging my performance based on what a lot of other people do. And I'm like, oh no, wife, I'm inadequate. But apparently God helped me through that. And he was able to give a good enough report that I got in with the missions organization. I've been okay so far. And I've been up front telling people about my autism, telling them what kind of language I do and don't understand and why I might ask follow-up questions or lots of clarifying questions so that they know I'm not being dumb or rude or annoying. But so far, people have worked with me and been very helpful and gracious. So I appreciate that. I just know that there are people in the world who I've encountered before who don't understand autism or they think, oh, Heather can't be autistic. And then they don't give me grace. I'm sure I encounter more of those people. So that's another con I guess that's a concern. That's the more worst-case scenario toward the worst end-of-the-scale concern. Most people are willing to work with me at least a little bit or forgive a little bit at least.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

I see. Okay. So far you've passed the test? So far I have. Who in your life has said to you, oh, Heather is just not autistic, or you just referred to there? Who in your life has said that?

SPEAKER_01 26:26

People at church, neighbors, people in the community, anyone who has an opinion and less knowledge.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Okay, so they've said to you, no, you're not autistic, or they've said to you, you don't seem autistic.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Or you couldn't be autistic.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

You couldn't be autistic.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

And and they're like then asserting that they're better than some of the best doctors in the world who diagnose to be autistic. And I don't say that to them, but I kind of just smile.

unknown 26:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

People have their impressions of you. And it sounds like maybe, I don't know, how you impress other people that maybe you meet for the first time, but maybe some people might just say, You don't seem autistic to me.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

The other problem is that a lot of these people are of the older generation. And back then there was autism and Asperger's. And I would be considered Asperger's because I'm very talkative. I don't have such rigid behavior that I can't interact in society or stuff. So I would not have qualified as autistic back then. I would have been Asperger's, but now I forget what time pe researchers and people did it, but they made autism and Asperger's be on the same spectrum and they called it a spectrum disorder because there are some people like me, highly verbal, can hold down a job, can do lots of things, but still have enough deficits to qualify as autistic. And then there's the other end of the spectrum where they need 24-7 care, they can't interact with people or the community, et cetera.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

I see. Okay. So you've encountered, okay, so at least what I'm hearing is as far as what you're going through to make this happen for you, the people that you've interacted with and interviewed with and so on, you experience that maybe uh understood and that they understand you? Would you say and support you?

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Yeah, I guess that's a concern.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Okay, but at least the immediate feedback is some hearing you say that you've passed some tests here in terms of some of your greatest worries. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

Yes, that's correct.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

Oh okay. All right. And so you're anticipating uh a a future situation where you might encounter someone who might not understand you or tell you something like, Oh, you're not really autistic?

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

Okay. So you anticipate that. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

I anticipate it because of a track record. Just quickly, okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

Well, somebody has told you that, and let's say somebody tells you that. How do you immediately respond to that? Okay, so someone comes to you and says, Heather, you don't look autistic to me, or you're not autistic. How do you immediately respond to that?

SPEAKER_01 29:01

This is where I try to use my limited social skills to figure out is this a good time and are they open to me, educating them about the autism spectrum and how it's a spectrum and how there used to be Asperger's and autism and now there's just autism spectrum? Or is this a time for me to just shut my mouth and let them move on to whatever else they're going to talk about? Or is this a time for you?

SPEAKER_02 29:23

Okay, well, that's what you think about doing, but what did you actually do when some someone, let's say the last time someone said to you something about, well, you're not autistic. How did you actually respond to them in that situation, if you can recall?

SPEAKER_01 29:37

The last time I just smiled at them because I knew I wasn't gonna get anywhere if I tried to explain.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

Okay, so you just smiled at them. Okay, and then what happened after that?

SPEAKER_01 29:47

We moved on to talk about other things.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

Oh, okay. So you just moved on to talk about other things. How do you feel about how you responded?

SPEAKER_01 29:54

I think it was an okay response in that situation because I didn't break any relationships there by giving them an info dump that overwhelms them or offending them. And uh, we uh still are amicable when we see each other, so I think we're okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:08

Okay, all right, at least it appears that you're okay together. In other words, if you're not holding something against you that's being autistic, let's say.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

That's true, but especially because they don't believe I'm autistic.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

Okay. They're whatever the reason, they're not seeing you negatively. Is that true?

SPEAKER_01 30:27

That's true.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

Uh okay. All right. Okay. So you're anticipating then the possibility of this happening in this new job situation, right? Somebody might say to you something like that again?

SPEAKER_01 30:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

Okay. And could you imagine? Let's assume somebody comes to you and says what they say. How how do you imagine you would immediately respond to that, or could respond to that if that actually occurred?

SPEAKER_01 30:58

I could respond with the just smile and let them move on to the next thing that they're going to say approach, which tends to oftentimes be the safest, it seems, because I don't end up offending people that way. Or I could try and educate them about autism, and best case scenario, they're like, oh, I didn't understand that. I see now. And worst case scenario, they're like, no, you can't be autistic, and I'm offended that you thought I was wrong.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

Okay. So out of all those possibilities, which one would you choose?

SPEAKER_01 31:25

I would choose, I would try to go for the best case scenario one where they understand more about autism. But if I think that they're not going to be that kind of person who ever will understand, then I'll go with the shut my mouth side.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

Okay. So you just wouldn't belabor the point or try to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

A way to deal with that.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

I feel like it's a good idea because I don't end up messing up relationships.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

Okay. Well it sounds like that way would serve you better, right? I guess I hear you as just moving on from that part of the conversation into something else or some other topic. Is that nice? Okay. You you could do that, and you have done that. Whoever has said to you you're not autistic, uh, at least historically, you just smiled and went on to talking about something else.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

Okay. All right. So you doubt your ability to do that in a future situation?

SPEAKER_01 32:29

That I should be okay with. It's the ramifications of someone who keeps believing I'm not autistic. That could be.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

Do you know that someone say that again? The ramifications of if they don't believe I'm autistic, but let's say someone doesn't believe you're autistic. Okay. So what's the consequence for you about that, that someone doesn't believe you're autistic? Someone is thinking of Heather and really I don't believe that she's autistic. Okay. Assuming that someone thinks that.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

In it depends on their position. If they're in my job, then they could refuse to explain something to me because they think I'm being dumb or annoying.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

Okay, so you imagined that they would okay. That's a possibility. Okay. That's one possibility, right? Are any other possibilities possible that you could pick up or imagine?

SPEAKER_01 33:21

They could tell my boss that I'm insolent because I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

Okay, they could do that. They could go to your boss and tell you Heather's just insolent. Okay, so that's another possibility. Can you imagine any other possibility?

SPEAKER_01 33:33

They could not tell me what g give me enough details about what they want me to do, and then I could try to do whatever I think they want me to do and mess it up royally and then have whatever consequences come there.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

So that's another possibility, right? Any other possibilities? Three possibilities. Anything else?

SPEAKER_01 33:50

With a supporter, like a church person or an individual, they could think I'm being rude or dumb or stuff like that and refuse to support me or withdraw their support. They could do that. They could tell other people, don't support this person. She is really weird and nuts.

SPEAKER_02 34:09

So you're imagining the most negative consequences.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Those are possible. Possible negative consequences.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

Let's say again.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

They might not happen, but they also might.

SPEAKER_02 34:19

That's possible. Okay. And then again, assuming that one of those possibilities occurs, let's say, how do you imagine you might or could deal with that?

SPEAKER_01 34:30

I would try explaining about autism. I could pull out doctor's letters I have. I could get the people who understand autism to try to explain to these other people what's going on. Worst case scenario, I guess I could end up losing the job, but that's really worst case scenario. I don't think that's going to happen. Another worst case scenario is that I end up losing a supporter and have them telling other people not to support me. And if people trust them, then that could be a problem. I might not be able to get some of the supporters I'd hoped. But that's a worst case scenario. I wouldn't think that people would go around maligning me just because they had a bad impression of me. I would think they would probably just withdraw their own personal support.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

So are you aware of how you're creating all these negative scenarios in your mind?

SPEAKER_01 35:15

I'm thinking through what the possible problems are, what the consequences of those problems would be if those problems happened.

SPEAKER_02 35:25

Calculating in a way. How I'm going to respond if one of those But yeah, okay. I guess that's w that's one way of deer dealing with a fear thing. Let's assume that something that I'm afraid or worried about actually happens. How could I possibly deal with that, let's say, if it happens, okay? And the other is to do you need to t uh to create these negative scenarios in your mind? In other words, I'm hearing you you can't just allow a situation to unfold the way it does. You feel you need to create these negative scenarios as rehearsals for something that could happen and how I might deal with that. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

I would say sometimes creating these what if scenarios has been able to help me in the past, especially with the sensory issues. Like if this situation gets too overwhelming in this way, then I will do this thing. That's helped me in many ways. Okay. With people, it it helps me to keep in mind that people might not understand me and they might not be accepting that I'm autistic, and that could be why I'm getting this bad reaction from them. So the keeping these things in mind can help me remember to be upfront about the autism if I need to help me understand that it might not be what I just said, it could be something I did or something like that. So that can help me, but I think the worry ends up hurting me more right now if I do too much of it. So I need to control the amount of worry or the time I spend on it.

SPEAKER_02 36:55

Uh-huh. I hear you there. That's kind of going back to your word. That's summarizes your word, right? Or your situation. Just worried. I'm worried about what might happen, right? Yeah. And then you I guess I hear you sometimes when it comes to worry, we can get consumed with worry. Are you consumed with worry here?

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Would you say I would say not typically because I'm keeping myself busy enough to do it? Well, how about now?

SPEAKER_02 37:21

How about now? Are you consumed with work? Because you're anticipating this new job situation coming up, right? As you anticipate this situation and all the things that could happen in your interactions with others, you're worried. You're worried about how you're going to be, is what I hear. How am I going to be assuming some of these situations actually arise?

SPEAKER_01 37:45

Are you asked to be about my level of worry?

SPEAKER_02 37:47

Yeah, exactly. Can we admit sometimes you could put it on a scale of one to ten, ten being consumed with worry and one or zero being, I'm not worried at all.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

I would say right now I'm probably a six because I'm definitely worried, but I could move on. I could switch to a different task. Whereas a ten, it means you can't switch to another task because you're like in a panic attack or something.

SPEAKER_02 38:09

Okay. So you're about a six in terms of level or intensity of worry about this. Okay. So what's the impact of your worry? Then what is your present worry doing to you and what is it costing you? Do you have a sense of that? What this worry is doing to you.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

Right now, it's stressing me out, I would say.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

Stressing you out?

SPEAKER_01 38:32

Yeah. And I know that when I worry, I can get stressed, and then my body can get more tired or have a harder time with different things, might have to do with some of my physical ailments, too. Because I've heard stress can make those all worse. So I know that it could be harming my physical health. I know that it's taking away time from other things I could be thinking about. I could be planning out a presentation to give to someone, whereas I'm actually here being like, oh no, what do I do if they're this or that? So that's another potential problem from this.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

Would it make any difference if you could let go of worry or be free of worry? Would that make any difference to you?

SPEAKER_01 39:07

I would say if I tried to release the worries that I've mentioned here, I would end up being worried that I am missing something and will mess something up because I didn't worry about it enough. And not the worry part, but think through what I should do in these situations, think through what I should be aware of.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Yeah, I'm worried that I won't be worried because I need, because I guess I need to be worried to plan for these negative events that I think are going to happen in my mind's eye. So I guess I'm hearing you say, I'm worrying myself. Is that true? Are you worrying yourself? Turning worry into a verb.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

Yes, I worry myself and I worry that if I don't worry, I won't plan enough.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

Yeah, worry compounds on top of worry, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 39:52

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 39:53

Yeah. But we're talking about the possibility if you were free of worry, would it make any difference? Worry about anything. Would it make any difference to your happiness or well-being, let's say?

SPEAKER_01 40:04

It would make me psychologically very happy until I stumble into a situation that I hadn't prepared for.

SPEAKER_02 40:12

That's only your worry operating.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

I know this morning I wasn't worried about it upsetting my mom and I sure walked into it. Yeah, you did. And if I'd been talking to myself through, okay, I need to I'm worried that maybe she'll respond wrongly. So maybe I should approach this differently. Maybe if I'd worried about it and took taken an action plan, then maybe I could have avoided.

SPEAKER_02 40:34

Well, I hear that's what that's how you justify worry. Helps me make create an action plan, right? But at the same time, it's impacting your, I guess I'd call it your peace of mind and your happiness. Okay, so but I asked you the question if you were free of this worry, what possible difference might that make to yourself if Heather was going through her situation from this point forward, worry free, let's say. Uh what do you imagine that would be like for you?

SPEAKER_01 41:05

I guess I'd be very happy all the time because even if I went into a blunder, then I would not be worried about it. I'd just keep being happy.

SPEAKER_02 41:12

Yeah, okay, all right, that's possible, huh? Yeah, you could bring your happiness to the situation, let's say. You could just like you said, I could just smile and move on or something. But you don't know how you're gonna be until the situation actually happens anyway, right? True. Yeah. So that's what I hear. You're worrying yourself over something that hasn't happened.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

That's typically what worry is, I think.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

Exactly. Do you know who Mark Twain is?

SPEAKER_01 41:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

Do you know what he said at the end of his life? He said, My my whole life was worrying about things that never happened.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

I don't think I could make such a profound statement. At the end of my life, I think I'd say something like, I think I'm dying.

SPEAKER_02 41:56

I don't know, because some often when we're stuck on feelings like worry or something, we'll unconsciously set up situations to worry and worry. We'll justify worry over and over again. But I'm hearing you say somehow if I were free of worry, I'd just be happy. I can't predict how somebody's going to be. I can't predict a certain situation, how somebody's going to react to me. The only thing I'm imagining is the things that have happened in the past. And so I think it's inevitable that that's going to happen again. But there's no guarantee that anything's going to happen again.

SPEAKER_01 42:31

That's true. There is a possibility that I never encounter another person in my whole life who doesn't think I'm autistic, although I think that's a very low probability.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

You never know, though.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

It's conceivable. It's a very small probability, though.

SPEAKER_02 42:44

Okay. Even if it happens, what's the big deal about it?

SPEAKER_01 42:48

I think I'll survive as long as they're not in a position of too much authority where they could mess things up.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

You have a certain confidence in yourself, at least you'll survive.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Probably.

SPEAKER_02 42:56

Whatever happens in the future, I'll survive it.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

Most likely.

SPEAKER_02 43:01

So it just brings up the question. So do I need to worry? Must I worry about these things?

SPEAKER_01 43:09

I would say worry is unnecessary. Planning is necessary, but I need to plan without worrying, and I need it not over and not worry because of the planning or vice versa.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

So if you could let go of worry, that might make a difference for you?

SPEAKER_01 43:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

Again, worry is a noun, but I I I'm hearing you say that you worry yourself. Is that true?

SPEAKER_01 43:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 43:31

You just you you you worry yourself, and as a consequence of worrying yourself, you worry.

SPEAKER_01 43:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 43:37

Okay. So we're talking about the possibility of letting go of worry. And so who's pr who's producing this worry? Uh me. You. Okay, you can see that, right? Okay. So being the producer of this worry, is it within the realm of possibility that you could let the worry go?

SPEAKER_01 43:55

There must be some possibility of that.

SPEAKER_02 43:58

Okay. All right. Some possibility. If I'm the creator or the producer of it, I guess I I would have the ability to let it go.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

Although I'm it's hard to calculate the probability of this happening, and then I worry that my probability might be off.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

Yeah, that's your worry about letting go of worry. Okay, but come coming back to right now, are you willing to let go of worry?

SPEAKER_01 44:19

I would say as long as I have a plan to make sure or to end up with the best case scenario, then I would be willing to try.

SPEAKER_02 44:29

Okay. All right. Okay. You so you're willing to try to let go of worry?

SPEAKER_01 44:35

As long as I as long as I haven't gotten rid of the benefits, the small benefits that I'd gotten.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

Okay. Okay. Is it possible to let go of worry and then do what you just said?

SPEAKER_01 44:51

I think what I actually need to do is write down the plans that I have for the different scenarios that are high probability and are high problem. And then when I have those worry thoughts come into my mind, say to myself, I have written this down.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

When you're anticipating worry thoughts, I'm just going to continue to be worried. I'm worried to let go of worry. No, I'm worried how I'm going to be. So I've got a plan for the future here.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

I see how I could make myself worry about this whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

So we're talking about the possibility of actually letting go of worry. Is that conceivable? At least touching on that's conceivable, right?

SPEAKER_01 45:30

It's possible.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

It's possible. Okay. So when it comes, if it's possible, do you have a willingness to let go of worry? Are you willing to let go of worry?

SPEAKER_01 45:40

As long as I have reasonable confidence that it won't end up hurting me in the long run.

SPEAKER_02 45:44

But you don't know. How can you know that?

SPEAKER_01 45:46

Then I'll worry about that.

SPEAKER_02 45:48

Exactly. Exactly. And we're talking about getting free of worry and just moving into your future, however, you do that. So the that's the question. I I I guess I'm hearing you say, are you willing to let go of this worry, but only if?

SPEAKER_01 46:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

I'm not willing to let it go uh unconditionally.

SPEAKER_01 46:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 46:11

Oh, okay. All right.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

So the consequence of letting it go unconditionally would be that what that I I navigate a situation wrong because I didn't think ahead about what could go wrong.

SPEAKER_02 46:26

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:27

Like this morning with my mom.

SPEAKER_02 46:29

Okay, yeah, exactly. So it gave for you it would be risky to let go of worry, right?

SPEAKER_01 46:35

Because unless I replaced it with I am going to sit down and make action plans.

SPEAKER_02 46:39

Yeah, okay. You could do that too. We're talking about could I let go of worry now? As long as I have the action plans that I could like as you and I are sitting here right now. Are you worried? Is there worry going on in this instant? Are you aware?

SPEAKER_00 46:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 46:55

Okay, so you're aware of worry in this moment? Okay. And how strong is your worry right now?

SPEAKER_01 47:01

Maybe a six and a half.

SPEAKER_02 47:03

A six and a half. Okay. So would you be willing to bring this worry down?

SPEAKER_01 47:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 47:11

All right. So take a moment here. There's a

A Gestalt Exercise To Drop Worry

SPEAKER_02 47:14

little technique. It's to focus on your worry. However, you experience worry. And that could be anything. You know worry because you use that word to name the feeling, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 47:25

Okay. Okay. So take a moment to just instead of resisting worry, take a moment to welcome it, if you would. And just take a moment to get in touch with this thing called worry and what it's like. This feeling of worry. And just feel it. Take a moment to feel it for a moment. And just be with it for just a moment here. This feeling of worry. And see welcome it a little more. Just welcome it. Instead of fighting it. And then as you welcome it, just go ahead and see if you could let it go or any of it go. Just for now. And just see if you could or would. Without trying even to figure out how. And then take a moment to look and see what so what am I feeling in this moment?

SPEAKER_01 48:37

It's still jittery.

SPEAKER_02 48:38

Jittery, okay, all right. And what number would you put your worry in this moment?

SPEAKER_01 48:45

Maybe a four. I think that the mind worries have dropped because I focused on my body's feelings. The body feelings are still there, but the mind worries are less there because I changed my focus.

SPEAKER_02 48:57

Yeah, okay, good. So good to get in touch with your body and the experience in your body. That's where we feel our feelings in our body.

SPEAKER_01 49:05

So weird.

SPEAKER_02 49:06

Yeah, I know you feel worry in your head, right? Because worry, what is worry basically? It's creating pictures in your head of these worst case scenarios that could happen. And then you live in those pictures. True. That's true. They somehow, I just because I think them, they're they they must gonna happen, kind of thing. But you don't know the future. That's true. Okay, let me ask you just one last question here. Uh would would you like to be totally free of worry?

SPEAKER_01 49:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 49:46

You would oh okay, all right. So take just a moment to be in touch with the level four of worry and give yourself a few seconds here to feel that. However you experience it. Just notice the shape of it and the feeling of it, where you feel it in your body, and so on. And then go ahead and just see if you let go of any more. And more. Just for now, by the way. That doesn't mean if you want to worry after our meeting here, you're plenty free to worry, right? So we're just talking about right now. It's like in this moment, in this instant. Is worry there or is it gone or down or what in this moment?

SPEAKER_01 50:39

It's very far down because I thought about dinner and I love food.

SPEAKER_02 50:42

Okay, how far down is it now?

SPEAKER_01 50:44

Maybe like a two because food consumes my whole mind.

SPEAKER_02 50:48

Okay. So you're willing to let go of the two just for now?

SPEAKER_01 50:52

Let go of two?

SPEAKER_02 50:53

Yeah, the night that you said the intensity of two, right?

SPEAKER_01 50:57

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 50:57

Okay, you willing?

SPEAKER_01 50:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 50:59

Okay, go ahead and just see if you could. Or would. And let me know when it's gone.

SPEAKER_01 51:09

I think I actually did the opposite because I started thinking too much about dinner and worrying about how long it's gonna take to warm it up.

SPEAKER_02 51:16

Yeah, I gotcha. I don't know. So you jumped right back into it, right? Yep. So was there at least an instant there where you okay, no worry? Or and then I jumped right into worrying about dinner.

SPEAKER_01 51:26

It went down to a two, so that's good.

SPEAKER_02 51:28

Okay, all right, good. Maybe that's as good as we need, because I know you did say I would like to feel less worried. Yes. So would you say you feel less worried? Okay, maybe we accomplished something here. So that's great. Okay, so coming back to this instant, as you and I are closing, this is how we end

Takeaways And Closing Reflection

SPEAKER_02 51:49

each meeting. Is what word might name my here and now experience coming to a close? In a few words, just how do I feel about this meeting we just had? Is there anything that I take away from this conversation at all? Any insight realization or anything?

SPEAKER_01 52:05

I would say I while you were talking, it was forming some action plans to help me not to worry. That's what I'm taking away.

SPEAKER_00 52:13

Okay, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:15

Yeah. Yeah. The other side of it is just kind of this is what you do honoring, this is what you do. You kind of plan for the future, and certainly nothing wrong with that kind of thing. But we're talking about, I don't know, maybe you get caught up in that, perhaps, needlessly.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

Yes. Or without benefit.

SPEAKER_02 52:36

Without benefit, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So the idea is to just know that you're in charge of this totally.

SPEAKER_01 52:45

What's this?

SPEAKER_02 52:46

This worry thing.

SPEAKER_01 52:49

I thought you meant the meeting.

SPEAKER_02 52:50

Oh no. That too. We are coming to a close. Yeah. Yeah, no, we're talking about the worry.

SPEAKER_01 52:56

All right, I can be in charge of it.

SPEAKER_02 52:57

Okay, okay. Yeah. All right. Uh yeah, thank you for the interview here. And I hope the people who might listen to clips of this will find something helpful in it all.

SPEAKER_01 53:08

I hope so too.

SPEAKER_02 53:10

Take care.

SPEAKER_01 53:10

You too. Bye. Bye bye.