Episode 165: Dr. Cory Jenks ON Reimagining Patient Care & Transforming Healthcare with Improv Comedy

In this enlightening episode, the host interviews Dr. Corey Jenks, a clinical pharmacist, comedian, and author who advocates for reforming the healthcare experience. Dr. Jenks discusses the power of improv comedy in addressing systemic issues in patient care and fostering a more rewarding healthcare experience. 

He highlights his mission to support both healthcare professionals and patients and stresses the importance of empathy in creating a meaningful patient-provider relationship. Towards the end, Dr. Jenks introduces his upcoming book intended to help newish dads navigate the challenges of fatherhood.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Presentation

00:32 Interview Begins: Dr. Corey Jenks' Unique Approach

03:02 Dr. Corey's Journey: From Clinical Pharmacist to Comedian

05:28 The Power of Diet and Lifestyle Intervention

09:17 Challenges in the Healthcare System

13:19 Improving Patient-Provider Relationship with Improv Comedy

16:30 Addressing the Skepticism and Challenges in Healthcare

19:46 The Power of Honesty and Empathy in Healthcare

24:24 The Power of Saying Yes in Improv and Healthcare

24:58 The Importance of Accepting and Understanding Reality

26:01 The Fear of Emotional Investment in Patients

26:36 The Struggles of Healthcare Professionals

27:22 The Impact of the Healthcare System on Professionals

28:47 The Role of Diet and Lifestyle in Healthcare

33:16 The Power of Empathy and Listening in Healthcare

34:02 The Importance of Humility and Objectivity in Healthcare

36:23 The Struggles and Rewards of Being a Healthcare Professional

37:56 The Impact of Burnout on Healthcare Professionals

38:50 The Challenges of Changing the Healthcare System

39:48 The Role of Leadership in Building a Better Healthcare Culture

42:16 The Challenges and Joys of Parenthood

43:18 The Importance of Feeding Healthy Food to Kids

43:37 The Importance of Empathy and Understanding in Healthcare

45:16 The Future of Healthcare and the Role of Conferences

 Website: https://coryjenks.com

Author page: https://mandalatreepress.com/cory-jenks/

Book: https://www.amazon.com/Permission-Care-Building-Healthcare-Culture/dp/1954801300/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UT

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Transcript

0:49

Hey guys, we got a fun episode for you today. This was with Dr. Corey Jenks. What I loved about this episode is Dr. Corey takes improv comedy to transform healthcare. I know, I know. Trust me. It will make a ton of sense as soon as he gets into it. But we had a lot of fun. In this episode, guys, we discussed the issues around the impact of systemic issues on patient care and the potential use of improv comedy in improving healthcare. Very enlightening stuff, guys, without further ado. Here's my interview with Dr. Corey Jenks. So excited for this guys, stick around because got an incredible guest today. He's such a unique, he has such a unique combinations of skills. Dr. Corey Jenks, a clinical pharmacist, author, comedian. and advocate for transforming the health care experience. Drawing on his background in comedy, Dr. Jenks discovered the transformative power of improv comedy in navigating the complexities of health care. In his book, Permission to Care, he shares his insights and experiences, offering practical advice on how health care professionals can reclaim their passion for their work and create a more rewarding health care experience for themselves and their patients. Corey Jenks. Welcome to the ketones and coffee podcast, man, man. I'm pumped. I was like, I got in late last night, but new old traveling got three young kids. And then we're hitting record. I'm ready to rock. So let's do this. Awesome, man. Well, thank you so much for being here. I've been a fan of well, metabolic health practice and more importantly, I also can appreciate a good joke, man. So apparently you're a pro in comedy, man. Well, I would call myself a semi pro in comedy. I so yeah, I, I'm a, I'm a, I'm an unconventional pharmacist, a human being. There's not a lot of pharmacists or comedians in pharmacy. I'm a pretty decent comedian. I'm a pretty decent pharmacist. I got this love for metabolic health where I, I, I worked to de prescribe in my practice utilizing the, you know, we're here, we're, we're on the ketones and coffee podcast, so toxic ketogenic diet, low carb metabolic health. So trying to get patients to reclaim their life and. I've found that utilizing my background in comedy helps to connect with others, to help me navigate the madness and frustration of the healthcare system, and really has allowed me to have the sort of perspective to open my eyes and be willing to take in the new information that has been able to transform people's lives. Man, we'll talk about that a little deeper, but I could never have thought of healthcare material be comedy, you know, healthcare as serious as it is, right? Why not lighten it up with some comedy, right? Yeah, so you got a really interesting background as a, yeah, you talk about being a clinical pharmacist, a comedian, you know, you're also a speaker and an author. What's particularly intriguing is that with your training, you don't you don't advocate for drugs and medication anymore. Instead, you focus on helping people manage chronic disease through like diet and lifestyle intervention. Can you tell us that story and how you got here today? Cause that's, that's a pretty interesting story, man. Sure. Well, Mark and Janice met at the copy machine in 1986. I'm just kidding. No, that was my parents origin story. No, let's cut forward to the fun stuff. So I graduated pharmacy school in 2011 and what a lot of people don't know about pharmacists is that we can do advanced training and do residency training to do jobs. It's called a clinical pharmacist. So we don't just sit in a big box retail pharmacy counting by fives. We just don't sit in the basement of a hospital filling I. V. Bags. I'm I'm in a embedded in a primary care clinic working alongside physicians, nurse practitioners, nurses, doctors, nurses and a physician's assistance and what's called a scope of practice or a collaborative practice agreement, which essentially means long story short, if you go to the doctor and you have diabetes, for example, and they start you on a drug, say, we'll say metformin, everyone's heard of metformin, they can refer them, the patient to my clinic and I am allowed to write prescriptions and manage these medicines for patients. So that you have more touch points in the system. The idea being that we are going to medically manage air quotes here for those listening, these chronic diseases. And that's what I did for several years until really 2000, late 2015 into 2016. My wife and I, my wife's a nurse practitioner herself. So both in healthcare. We'd always lived a pretty healthy lifestyle and we'd always have an open mind to things. And we heard this guy, if you're listening to this podcast, you might've heard of Vinnie Tortorich, Mr. No sugar, no brains. And so we, I heard him on a comedy podcast, actually, Adam Carolla. And I thought this guy's a little bit weird. But I was curious, and I think that's a big part of that comedy background, is that willingness to say yes to something that's curious. And so, like many, we listen to one, we listen to another, we listen to these great names who've done the research, we go down the rabbit holes. And, you know, at the time, we didn't really have, I would say, like, weight to lose or anything like that. We'd been fairly healthy, air quotes. But from a taking care of patients perspective, like, I had never gotten patients off insulin. I'd never gotten them to reduce their meds for type 2 diabetes. And all of a sudden. We're learning these, you know, approaching things with a lower carb approach, like duh, put less sugar in your sugars go down. And what my Cassie and I, my wife started eating this way, felt more energetic pharmacists are pretty high strung. So I kind of chilled out quite a, I kind of chilled out kind of a lot, which is like, it doesn't make sense a lot. I chilled out and, and then I was able to apply it to my patients and I turned a few other pharmacists onto this and the ripple effect has been really awesome to see them also have that revelation of, Oh, I can, this job can be fun and help people give their lives back instead of just hypermedicating them. Nice, nice. So, you know. Once you experience this firsthand, it's impossible to ignore the impact of the diet and lifestyle intervention, right? When you first come across it, I've, you know, I interviewed a num numerous guests on my show, and it's always the practitioner who has failing health, right? And when it when nothing else works, when their own medical advice doesn't work on them, it's usually the diet and lifestyle that It's a saving grace for them. But I also think that there can be individuals who seen the same, you know, video like you seen, right. And seeing the same horror that happens in hospital settings and they seem to. Not understand the information for only God knows why. So you do not have a failing health. Why, why do you think it resonated with you? You said you got curious. A lot of people get curious, but it doesn't follow through. Why do you think that you specifically in that moment in time got intrigued by. You know, this, you know, that video or, you know, you, and you didn't in turn, you wanted to learn more about it because I, I believe that you went to different conferences did your own experimentations and you did the no sugar thing. So why were you so curious you know, when, when people are, are brushing it off? You think? I think there, yeah. Well, I think that it's true. I think the default mode in healthcare is you learn your paradigm. You stick with your paradigm. The paradigm isn't working paradigm harder for, for myself. The reason I got curious is my wife and I are competitive and so we like in years past we had done a, you know, we try like a vegetarian month, which I called my cheese and peanut butter month. Like, you don't lose weight. You don't feel any different. You just, you know, eat that. And then one year we did like a no sugar month and we're like, Oh, you know, we lost a couple pounds. Not that we had a ton to lose, but we felt pretty good. But I also think that I, I, at that point in my career, I had been out for 5 or 6 years and had been feeling the burnout of seeing no improvement in patients feeling like a failure as a practitioner. And so when you dive into this rabbit hole, that's totally opposite. I think. If you live a life of curiosity, you come to realize that half the stuff that's, that's the conventions are put in place by people who benefit from having the conventions, whether it's the food industry, pharmaceutical industry, what have you. And so you dig into it. And I, and I, like I said, I'd always followed, you know, Air quote, athletic, like played sports, exercise regularly, eat well. But I started doing the low carb thing not being afraid of fat. So, you know, you're reading a title of his book, the big fat. And I, all of a sudden wasn't hungry all the time. I wasn't thinking about my next snack and my next meal. And so for me, it was less of a physical, physical change and more of a performance change. And with that, when you, when you, when you cut out a lot of the processed carb carby foods and junk, like I just feel better. Like I'm 37 now I have three kids under six. And I am, I wear smaller pants than I did in high school. And not like I wasn't like obese in high school, I played sports, was athletic. So. It's also just made life easier. So I was curious, it worked life's easier. Don't have to overthink things. Yeah, no, it's amazing because, you know, like I said you know, people may not cause, you know, in my experience, a lot of people around me, you know, said I sent them all of these videos to books, texted them and whatnot, and it's just not resonating, man. So I'm just, that's why I asked that. I want to, I think, I think along with that though, maybe we can get into it more in the sort of. Like the comedy implementation side of it. And this is what I see in my practices. Someone has to be someone has to want to change The pain of what their current paradigm is has to be enough to make them want to change and I like my wife and I Have done the same thing with sick family members as well and Most ignore us. So I, I feel, I feel your pain and I, I can't explain it. I think that the phrase that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make a drink has been around for years. Cause it, it's just, yeah, yeah. Yeah. We'll talk about that more and more, but you know, I want to dissect your, their experience here more, a little bit more, and if you don't mind you were asked this by. Dr. Choi, I believe in the Low Carb MD podcast, who's doing an amazing job over there, by the way, I want to ask and obviously, you know, So you now understand, you know, beyond prescribing medications, right? Because pharmacists gets a bad rap since the narrative is that the emphasis is often in, you know, product sales or whatnot. I don't know if that's true or not. Just maybe you can shed light on that too. But what I want to know is how did that whole experience and knowing what actually goes in inside those walls help you with your practice today? Which walls? Yeah, the walls when you were practicing you know, when you were a clinical pharmacist early on in your life. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that looking at the, the, model of how pharmacists are reimbursed. It's a product model. You sell more drugs, you make more money. Now, this is not a podcast. We're going to go into the politics of pharmacy management managers, PBMs, but the reality for, for the pharmacists sitting at the Walgreens and the CVS and every independent pharmacy is that their reimbursement for the product, the physical product is less and less and less. They're squeezing pharmacies, which means you're squeezing techs out, which means pharmacists are burnt out. They're working, working solo. And so it's, it's a harder life for, for pharmacists. We have been doing what's called medication therapy management or this disease state management for a few decades, pharmacy, most, mostly in the federal system, because there's more leeway with the laws getting reimbursed as pharmacists for our cognitive services. So, which has been, you know, give them more drugs to make the numbers better, blood pressure, diabetes, et cetera. And so. What I was taught was I'm doing a air quote. Good job. If I get patient, Mr. Smith on 10 drugs, but his A1C drops from eight and a half to six, 6. 9. Like, good job, Corey. Your A1C is under seven. Sure. They have to check their sugar four times a day. Sure. Their life is toting around a bag of meds. That's our air quote success. And so what I learned practicing as a clinical pharmacist is that the, the, like the model is we care about, like, we're always taught to treat the patient, not the number. But it comes down to a lot from, from those above my pay grade of like the numbers or what matter. And so it's disheartening and it takes the patient, the person at the center of it, outside of the equation and turns them into just, you know, a lab value for a diagnosis. And that's where I read about just empathy on your book permission to care, you seem to be more empathetic to also not just for the patients, but. the healthcare professionals too, right? Yeah, it sucks for all of us, like for the, from the patient, like I'll have someone in my office and they're, they're taking insulin and they're checking their sugar three times a day. And I'll say like this sucks. Doesn't it? It sucks to check your shook to prick your finger, right? It hurts. All right Well, what's do you want to like we can have this the life of suckiness of taking meds and pricking your finger? Or and to be honest like making a big diet change can be hard and suck too. So which pain do you want? I'm here to identify What are you what do you want? What do you want your pain to be? Because there's no, no improvement without some pain. And then from a healthcare provider's perspective, Oh my goodness. Like, you know, we'll reference Dr. True. He left the traditional system so he could go do the work he wants to do with his patients versus the average primary care provider getting seven minutes with the patient. You can't, you can't help somebody in seven minutes. So I feel bad for them too. But the doctor comes out of school with hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loans. They're stuck paying those off. They're stuck in the system too. And I think there's a lot of. Bad raps on, on healthcare providers, we're all stuck in a crummy game where we're all this sort of cog in a wheel. And so the question becomes, how can we get outside the system, actually make a difference, but also realize that we have to make a little, a little bit of a living at the end of the day, too. So, I want to understand what are we not understanding with. That profession, your healthcare system and how can we now help, you know, cause this is your thing is to really use your company or your services to really make the relationship between the healthcare professionals and the patient a lot more. Easier, right? And, you know, you talked about these professionals being burnt out, right? So how, how do we help? But where do we start with that? I think that from a healthcare professional standpoint and what I do to clarify. So my, my background is as an improv comedian as well. And so I'll go teach a lot of these skills of improvisation to doctors, pharmacists, nurses. And we can help the burnout. We can help the whole situation because improv really isn't about being funny. I'm living proof that you do not need to be funny to be a successful. But, oh, well, thank you. Oh, you're, you're too kind. You're flattering me, but it really is about living in the moment, listening and responding and finding that person's why in front of you. Now, I'm not here to tell you how we're going to fix the seven minute primary care appointments or the reimbursement models. That's not my area of expertise. My area of expertise is acknowledging that our system sucks and how can we navigate it more, more effectively while we let the other change makers change the system. And to me, that means learning how to listen to a patient and connect with them quickly. Learning how a visit can be about talking about their grandkids while weaving in the fact that we're going to manage their blood sugars. Making that person in front of you feel seen, heard, and understood. And that is from a provider to patient, but also from a leadership to provider way of looking at it too. The healthcare leaders need to make the people that. Do the actual work feel seen, heard, and understood as well. Yeah, no I've seen it first time. I think everybody's seen it for a time when they go to their doctor's office. And you know, funny story, our doctor, when we book an appointment with them and we, we asked to have, we have one issue, right. And when we would bring up another issue, my, our doctor would say, Hey, just one issue, come back for, if you want to ask something else, you got to come back. Um, Is that, is that because they don't have time to, to answer or cause just, are they restricted with the timing of it? I think it might, might guess, and I'll make a generalization as someone who's not a doctor myself is that because of their limited time, if that visit is meant to talk about your sore foot and you start bringing up your sore tummy, like they're, they, they are literally booked for like five to seven minutes. They're seeing 25, 30 patients a day. If you start talking about your stomach. Well, they're going to be behind for their next patient who, if they have a sore tummy and a sore foot, they're, they're, they're behind and not that. And I, and I, again, I want to make sure to make it clear doctors, nurse practitioners, providers, we want to help you. We're stuck in a crummy system and we're, I think they honestly do the best they can. But right now the system's set up to fail. And so when, when you say, well, I had my, I came here for my foot, but by the way, my eye hurts, like you got to make it out of the appointment because our, our time is literally up and I have 10 people waiting after you. So it's, I'm not here to defend the way the system works. I'm just here to say, Hey, it's, it's sort of, sort of what it is, unfortunately. Yeah. Thank you for clarifying that. Cause there's a narrative going around there to say you know, they don't care, blah, blah, blah, because I've had, cause on, if you look on Some of these Google reviews for these doctors, man, they people, you know, can, can be not kind if, you know, it's to and I think this, so this is where if I can help, what I, what I would do is if I came into an office, I was getting reviews like that is I think we're, we're lacking honesty in healthcare from all levels. The big healthcare companies are pretending that they don't do it for a profit. But they do, they care about making money doctors. If they would just, and I'll say this to patients, like, I want to talk about your kids all day. I could talk about the super bowl with you all day, Mr. Smith, but I got 20 minutes and we haven't even touched on the, the, the blood sugars that were spiking to the two hundreds, but we can get through that and we got some time. I want to, I want to BS with you. If you're a doctor and you feel like, I think it would be just perfectly, I think patients will be much more forgiving when you're honest with them. Instead of being like, well, you know, I, I wish I could, or I can't talk about that right now. I'll just say, I really wish I could, if they don't give me enough time to talk about that, please make another appointment and I will try to see you as soon as possible. If it's something serious, et cetera, here are the steps you can take to be seen sooner. Be honest that that's all I all I want like comedy, like great comedy comes from a place of honesty or it's not funny. Yeah. So that's where I, I just acknowledge the absurdity of our system and patients tend to be a little bit more forgiving when I'm honest. Mm. You're right. You know, comedy sometimes you're not beating around the bush. You just hitting direct direct shots there. Yeah. Shots of the system. You know, I. I want to get your opinion on this because I always sense like some ego with practitioners sometimes in terms of just going out of protocol, right? And obviously diet in lifestyle, like low carb in particular is, you know, is such a You know, way out of like the standard protocol, right? And I experienced this firsthand how dismissive they can be, right? With patient suggestions. And I'm not certainly painting a picture for like everybody, right? Not all practitioners, right? They are well meaning, like we said. This one isn't just an isolated event, but it's been my experience so far. And I work with clients who has been, has the same experience. I believe, you know, You, you aim to change that with your, with with improv comedy. And what has been, I want to ask you, what has been the challenge for you early on, you know? And anything that any pushback that you've been getting, what have you found effective to that made an impact? Like, I want to start with the challenges. Challenges specifically with like working with other providers or working with, working with patients because providers, I think that it's. Improv comedy, super abstract. Like I, I was going to go speak to a big event and I literally had a doctor say, what the F does improv and health have to do with each other because it's, it's so outside the world. Like I think the biggest challenges I I've had is that we've become hyper data focused and I listen, I don't want to go to a doctor who is not competent and to get through med school, pharmacy school, nursing school, there is an immense amount of schooling, training, testing that you have to be absolutely perfect. So we are conditioned to need to be perfect and not being, not make a mistake. And of course we don't want to make a mistake in the critical areas. But while we're so focused on that, we're so afraid to make a mistake on an interpersonal level. We aren't learning how to have the, the conversations, the listening skills, the soft skills, which is the boring word that, that, you know, businesses use. And so the big pushback I have is this skepticism of like, why in the world do I need to learn these, these skills? And I think that my pushback on that is when I explain that. You're highly trained. You have all this information. You have spent years in residency, fellowship, et cetera. But if you can't take what's in here in your head, communicate it in a way that makes people think about it and actually care about it in their heart. It's a waste of everyone's time. And when patients feel dismissed and, and what I'll do is I'll, I'll give several examples in my own personal life for myself and my family of the doctor did a great job, they saved the life of my grandfather and still found a way to piss off my family, like, because they're so dismissive and cold. And I, and I, what I do to try to, like, acknowledge them is like, Hey, I want your skills. I want your abilities. Yes. At the end of the day, I want you saving the life. That's what's most important, but so much of what health care is, is beyond our control. Someone gets cancer. It's, it's, you know, regardless of the metabolic arrangement that may have led to it, so many of these outcomes are beyond our control, but focusing on with what's within our control can really improve that relationship. And maybe those, yeah. You know, Google reviews will go from like a two to a three and a half or four, if you can get, you know, at least start acknowledging the human beings in front of you. Yeah, I know. I imagine this has to be a collaborative approach, right? Effort from everyone for that practitioner. Also you know, you go around the country speaking, right? Teaching healthcare professionals. Have you had any instances where you. Example that somebody disagreed I imagine like comedians are all, they're ready for anything, right? Cause you, you got to rebuttal for anything. So, any, any interactions that you can point to that you turned, you turned around, like you turned around the conversation, make them a believer after. Well, I had one, I have one that really sticks out to me. I was doing this for a group of pharmacists and physicians and I had a pharmacist sitting in the front row with like her arms folded, like scowling. And I was like, what's going on? And she's like, well, this is a, cause I do this. I'll do it for accredited continuing medical education, CME. So this was a CME event. So they're there to get their, their, their education to keep their licenses active and. She said, I think I thought I'm supposed to be professional. I'm not allowed to laugh or smile. And I'm like, are you insane? I didn't say, are you insane? But like, this is, this is the mindset that we're drilling into our healthcare professionals, that being professional somehow means like being. Unfeeling, unflinching, unable to smile or laugh. And so I, you know, over the course of this multi hour workshop, getting them engaged, getting them loosened up, showing that there's a, it's getting them to be a little bit vulnerable and trying something like when I'm doing an improv game, like you're going to look silly, you're going to look foolish. You're going to make a quote. Mistake with zero consequences and realizing like, this is an opportunity for you to grow and also to realize that people are capable of so much more than they believe, whether, you know, from a, I'm not funny, I can't think on my feet, I'm not adaptable. Like you are, you just have to train that muscle in your brain. Like this is what transformed my. First three years of practice versus now is the first couple of years. I sat there scared of what that patient was going to say, cause I didn't know how to react and now it's all a game and so I just made them see that it can be a fun game that you play with your patients a little back and forth, boom, you find their, you find their issue. We have a great day. Everyone goes home happy. Mm. You know what makes this special is you know where they're coming from.'cause you've been there, right? Yeah. You empathize with them and it, you know, otherwise you would have been somewhat offended. Right. If you didn't know because they were,'cause again, you've, you've had the training, you've been there, you did, you did, you had all this experience. Um Mm-Hmm. you, like you said, like. It's some, for some people, it's hard to get out of that protocol, right? It's always like creates this barrier. It's hard to escape that for these, some of these people. Just by, you know, going by just the lack of progress, you know, in America, it's just a much larger scale. But if a healthcare provider is listening right now. What message do you have for them? If you were to go to their place of business, how would improv comedy approach a situation like like that? Like, where do you start? Where do you even start? You're, you start by saying yes. Same message. So, so improv comedy. Boils down to two words. It's yes. And it means we agree and we build together. When I say yes. And it means I'm accepting your reality. So if I started, if you started an improv scene and you said, we're on the moon. And I said, we're not on the moon. We're in a bounce house. Well, I've totally negated your world. And now we're going to have to rebuild the world in a bounce house. Understanding why I thought, you know, we thought we were on the moon. But if you say we're on the moon and I say, yes. And we have 30 seconds of oxygen left. Like I've agreed to your reality. I've heightened what's going on. If I went to a place of business, a healthcare organization, and I was hearing all the complaints and problems. I, if I was a poor poor improviser or bad at this, I would just, or it can be, I was just going straight comedy. I would just be like, well, just laugh the problems away. Well, no, we can't, we first, we have to accept like what's going on here is hard. It's challenging. You know, I did this for a group of veterinarians a couple months ago and they listed all their challenges and I wasn't just like, well, just laugh it away. It's okay. Like, okay, that is hard. That is hard. Okay. Yes. And we can do this to make that improvement. We can do that to make that improvement. We have to acknowledge and accept like what other people are seeing and feeling so that they feel understood. So I know it sounds like, like way too simplified. But the default answer in healthcare is often no. Like I'm doing this low carb diet. I think it's doing great. No, you can't do that. Right. I want to, you know, we have, I want more time with my patient. No, you can't do that. It's like, no, no, no, no. Well, let's start saying a little bit, a little bit of yessing. Right. And when we say yes, it doesn't mean we literally give you everything you want, but it's just, it's saying yes, being yes to listening to what's happening. You know what? I'm not saying you're humanizing it because it's not inhumane, right? Sometimes it's just putting more. emotion in it, right? You're, you're investing more in this patient. Why, why do you think they're scared of investing some, a little bit of emotion? Like, is, is this, is it the system or are people kind of, you know, we see all these movies that Say that, you know, you can't be emotionally attached to a patient because, you know, there's, there's, you're going to see a lot of patients, but wow, what's, where, where is, where is that where is that fear coming from of just, cause it's, it's, you know, for us, it's, we're human, it's easy for us to connect with people, but when it comes to like patient and healthcare provider, it's why, why are people, why is it? It, that more obvious for some people for, for that profession. There's a few things that, that do that. I think, again, I think most people go into healthcare with great intentions there to, there to help others, but the S like our healthcare system turns us into like robots that click on screens that do electronic. Like I have to click like 10 times to document a note. It's insane. And so that, that'll frustrate you. That'll make you cynical. Like not every patient's like, Oh yeah, doc, I'm going to do what you said. And I lost all this weight and I'm doing great. Thank you so much. I made you some jerky because I don't eat cookies anymore. Like there's patients that abuse you, that yell at you, that like, and I have in my experience in the world of, of Ozempic, like I have. Patients coming in to lose weight that just want the shot and I don't give them the shot and they get angry at me and say, it's a waste of time. And I'm an idiot like that'll change you. Like, so that that'll turn you cold. And that'll, that'll harden you. And I think along with that, you see the, like, cynically, you see the changes in our healthcare system that make it harder to do your job. Well, we're crazy reimbursement issues with insurance. Pharmacy management manager. So at the end of it, the person that suffers is the patient. So I think getting into that moment, seeing that human being in front of you, trying your bat, if you try your best to make a connection and they don't care and they're on it, they're going to go do their thing and they think you're an idiot and you've done everything you can. Being willing to let go and say, I've done all I can helps. But yeah, I think our system just turns us into little cogs of their unfeeling robots a lot of the time. Yeah, no, I understand it. It's, you know, thank, thank you so much for coming on here because there's such a, again, there's a narrative out there about, you know, how healthcare professional doesn't really care about their patient, blah, blah, blah. And they're only going by what, by their experience, but we, we really. What we are not understanding is what they're actually going through. Right. Again, you said that when they're coming in, they just, no, nobody goes into the healthcare, right. Not wanting to help people. Obviously you chose that profession because you wanted to help people. And then you, you, you get in the system. I, like I said, like you said, it turns you into. You know, something that you're not and sometimes just, it's just a system and you get so ingrained in the system, it's hard to get out of that protocol, right? And when, and when, and I guess when you had that experience of, you know, finding out that, you know, diet and lifestyle can really help these patients. It's really hard to, again once the genie in the bottle is out, it's out. You can't reverse that. So, I guess, I couldn't unsee it. Yeah. Yeah. And I will say, yeah, I will say from, from like my perspective, trying to do a presentation at my facilities on diet and lifestyle as a pharmacist was incredibly hard to do. Trying to discuss de prescription was incredibly hard to do. So not only is it a system designed to give you less time with your patients, it's designed to help, you know, anyone who's an outside thinker in healthcare is, is often shunned or made fun of until. 30 years later when it turns out they were right. So it's a, it's a hard battle to fight along the way. And a lot of people are just like, screw it. I don't want to deal with the trouble. I'll just keep checking the boxes and keep moving towards that retirement date, you know, despite the negative outcomes. You know, this interview here changed my mind about the healthcare professionals, man. I think I've always had the, this image of them that they, they're only, you know, they only care about themselves, obviously, and we know this is bigger than the healthcare professional. It's, it's the system that, that runs it, right? But then the people in it. Again, you empathize. I love, I love that you talked about in your book that you, you have to empathize with these people, with the healthcare professionals, because some of them are just in the system and some, it's not their fault and they're, they're really. Restricted in what they can do right within the system and people who got out of it, like yourself, you know, Dr Tro and others can really really, really lucky to find out about diet and lifestyle because for, for, for the most part, when you're a professional, it's kind of a risk, right? Getting out of that, right? Once again, once a genie is out of the bottle It's hard to unsee that and for some, if you, if you really think about it, when you're, when, when your career is, is going up in trajectory and you find out about this. You know, it's a hard decision to make, right? Am I going to, I'm, am I going to go in this rabbit hole and keep finding out that what, that my training is not right. You know, you know what I'm saying? Like, but that's hard. Yeah. Well, even going back to pharmacy school and I, I was unfortunately on the wrong side of this. The one, the guy that sits up front and asks the question of the teacher every like 10 minutes, everyone just tells him to shut up. What's up, ask what's on the test, right? We just want to get through it, get through it, get through it. And then you get into your job and you just want to get through your day. And yeah, you, you get conditioned to keep going and doing the same thing. And then if you try to think differently or. It it's, you're, you're made fun of, you're laughed at, you're shunned, you're yelled at, and very few people want to deal with that at the end of a long day with the limited time and bandwidth. And so there's, there's the, the, the people that take a stand and do their thing. I I'd like to think I'm a little bit more under the radar. I just kind of do my thing. I'm not a outspoken, you know, I come on these podcasts and I talk about it. I don't really engage in any social media fights. That's just not a fight I want to fight. I want to go in and focus my energy on taking care of patients every day. Or going somewhere and improving the culture of a, of a healthcare system. I think that's, that's where my strength lies. And I think there are some people whose strength lies in fighting those battles. And I think we all have a role in that. Like for me, I was recently helped publish a paper with a group of, I used to work in the federal system, a paper that went out and the federal practitioner discussing. Therapeutic carb restriction, ketogenic diets for type two diabetes. Like, okay, I can use my talents there, provide a little bit more evidence. So the next time someone wants to come to my colleagues working at the VA and say, you're doing it wrong. Well, actually I had this paper. I authored with doctors and dieticians and nurse practitioners and pharmacists saying that when we work as a team, we get great results. Here's a great case study of that, that we put in the paper. You know, that's, that to me is. Deciding where to focus my energy the most, like having squabbles on, on Twitter for me is just not my place. Finding some data, moving the cause forward, coming on a podcast like this, and then trying to just open the minds of other healthcare professionals to, to, to being willing to, to like, I'll give one quick, one quick story. So my wife's done improv training too. She's a nurse practitioner. I can't claim that she's the best nurse practitioner and I can't claim that I'm the best pharmacist. But one piece of feedback that we consistently got from patients is, you're the first healthcare professional that's listened to me, which like, it makes us feel good in our little hearts, but it makes me feel terrible. They're like, these people are 70 years old and no one's listened to them. Like it's, it's the, it's so simple, but they can't do it. As I unfortunately like talked over, you know, so ironic, ironic. I know I'll step back here. No, it's okay. Yeah, no, you know, I really commend you for doing that because healthcare professional doesn't get a lot of help or doesn't get a lot of of praise. I know it may, some of the training may, may be incorrect in terms of just the diet and lifestyle side of it, the lifestyle the lifestyle intervention side but. I mean, even, even the medication side, like half the stuff you learn in school is obsolete in a decade. So we can either, we can either accept that with humility, which I do like every patient. I say, we'll say what medicine, you know, this, we'll start this on this medicine. What, what can it cause? I'm like, here's what it can cause. Here's what should happen, but anything can happen. Like having that humility you know, having done this long enough, you get hump. If you're, if you do it right, you live in the moment, you get humbled. And you, you, you temper expectations with, with every intervention you do from lifestyle to diet. Yeah. That's staying objective with it too. Right. Um, when you're presented with an evidence and you're willing to take that evidence and really do your own research and that really helps somebody, you know, get to the root cause. Right. And that's how people are, that's how people can get to the root cause. When you're objective, right. You're not you're not too dogmatic about. Protocols and, you know, your training and whatnot, you're, you're humble. Like you said, you know, just be humble with with the evidence. Cause science is evolving. It's, it's constantly evolving. It's changing. Like there's new science, you know. That comes out. Yeah. Look how humble, look how humble I am. I'm just, so, well, for example, like I'll have patients that are eating, you know, they'll, they'll, they'll incorporate some carbs in their diet. There's some of like, I have patients who are vegetarian, vegan, whatever. If they're doing well, I don't care. I'm not going to be like, no, keto is the one true way, man. Like, listen, I just want you to be good at the end of the day. If you have the magic genetics to be able to eat Twinkies all day long and be super fit. Like where, I don't know where those genetics are, but you should spread those genes about the population. That's amazing. Who am I to tell you that you're not, like, I can say that I don't know how you're not dead, but you are not, and you are thriving. So yeah, yeah, that, that ability to, to, to accept others where they are. And then that, to also like empathize with patients, like I had a patient just last week, he was like, well, I heard this weird thing about. Eating just meat. And I was like, listen, you got the right pharmacist here. Cause patients are, are like almost ashamed or scared to bring up their own ideas. So to have that, to like have that humility as a provider to say, Oh yeah, that was probably hard to say. Yeah. You're cool. Try some, try some carnivore. Like let's do it, you know, let's have some fun with that. Yeah. You know, you're, I don't know if we're realizing it, but. You, what you're doing, you're, you're saving a lot of people's lives, man. Cause a lot of times my, my, my parents, they're both, metabolic, you have metabolic dysfunctions, right? Insulin resistant, type 2 diabetes, pre diabetic. And they didn't get lucky with their doctor, right? They, they, they, they're not a fan, the doctor's not a fan of, you know, lifestyle change. Obviously, they'll say, hey, just limit your carbs, I guess. But what does that mean? Right? When you're insulin resistant, you're not, you're not metabolizing the, the, you know, glucose as, as, as well as others. Right? So if you, if you still consume carbs, you know, you'll still have to be on medication, have that maintenance, like metformin, what we talked about earlier. But with you, you're, you're, what you're doing, man, you're. For how many weeks you're doing this, you've, you've saving a lot of people's lives along the way. And I just want to give you your flowers and, you know, I know we can, you know, lighten up the mood with jokes, but man, but seriously, you, you are making changes, you're making waves. And also you're bringing up a good point about healthcare professionals and how. You know, some of them are innocent in this, right? Unless you've heard about this and, and you choose to brush it off, then that for me, criminal. But yeah, but yeah, man thank you for, for, for that, for that side of things, like, you know, enlightening, enlightening us with, with that information about healthcare providers and how they, they are suffering in this too. I mean, the rates of burnout, the rates of suicide and healthcare professionals. I can't give you the statistics off the top of my head, but it's. It's bad made it worse and what irritates me the most, I'll say something mildly controversial is that you have all these administrators who have 0 skin in the game. As far as liability, they have 0 skin in the game. As far as if they mess up, they're going to get sued because, you know, for malpractice it's. It's all in the providers. They're abused. They're little cash machines for healthcare organizations for companies. And I mean, I literally had these conversations with my, my coworkers, the, the, the providers I work with, there was just like, we're, we're just here to make money for the, for the CEO and the shareholders. It's like, yeah, kind of. Make it dehumanizes you and make it, you know, and it jades you to doing the right thing because when they, you know, are we doing this new initiative because it's going to be good for the patient or is it's going to, it's going to make money or it's going to cut costs. So yeah, it sucks. And I don't, yeah, my, my my solution is to find some joy within the current system as best you can, because I am not an expert in policy. And as a pharmacist, I get lots of patients asking me about their rashes and their, their ouchies that I am not trained to do. So as a pharmacist, I'm really good about saying, you know, setting boundaries of when I don't know, and I don't know how to fix the healthcare system, but I know how we can make it a little bit better within it right now while the smartest people go about making, making the system changes, hopefully for the better. You know, if, if someone is listening to this, you know, if, if you guys want to learn more about, you know, you learned this is Dr. Corey here has a book it's out in Amazon, right? And the title of the book is, I believe, Permission to Care. Yep. What did you aim to provide about that book? What's the goal? Why did you write that? What did you think? What did you envision to do with that? Yeah. So, Yeah. So thank you. Yeah. The book's permission to care, building a healthcare culture that thrives in chaos. And my vision for the book was kind of twofold. What I did was I, I wrote this book actually from March to June of 2020, because my, I had a second kid on the way and I knew that I wasn't going to have ever have time like this to write another book. So I just banged it out with just the one air quote, which is one kid. But the, yeah, but the vision was twofold. The first vision was to give healthcare professionals, some of the tactical tools that I've used. As an improviser and, and how I've applied them to my day-to-Day life as a, as a pharmacist. And I mean, this goes across all, all disciplines. How, how? Like what are some, some skills, some tips to be better listeners, empathizers, to find a little joy in the healthcare system. To put that patient and yourself rather than that organization or the, the mean old man at the top of the, the, the food chain to, to, to, to navigate being a provider better. So, you know, ultimately that title, permission to care is like we want permission to do the right thing. Right. So if we're, if we're curious, if we're willing to, to listen to the patient, we're going to get that permission to do the right thing. Dealing with the chaos, you know, improv comedy is all dealing with the unknown healthcare is all chaos and unknown. The second aim of the book was to target leadership, like building a culture, building a culture leadership. And so I, I, I zoom in on the tactical skills for, for healthcare professionals, but then I kind of take a broader view in the book. On, what are some things that you can do to make your own staff feel senior and understood? How can you build a culture that people wanna go work there, that people enjoy what they do as much as you can in this crummy healthcare system we work in Because the cost of someone leaving is a lot to replace'em. The cost of burnout is a lot to your, in your bottom line. And I, I'm not gonna pretend that you're not in it to make money. It's okay. I wanna help you make more money'cause people are gonna stay and be happy. And then ultimately who wins when providers are happy, the system's better, the patient wins. So we get, we get that permission to care. So I, and I, and I go through and it's, I'm a comedian. So I try to make some jokes in there, tell some funny stories. And you know, the feedback I got, well, my mother said it was actually good. So thanks a lot, but a lot, a lot of good feedback from people who find it, you know, a light, easy read to, to give them some skills that they use in their personal lives as well as their professional lives too. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great book. If anyone is interested, I'll link the book to Amazon. Right. It'll be in the description box below guys. So also you, you thought we, you, you mentioned earlier before we went live that you have a new book. How interesting is that? What's that about? It's totally different than the last one. So, as I mentioned, having my second kid in 2020. We ended up, we had our third kid this year. So my, my next book comes out Mother's Day actually is the plan. It's not up for pre order yet as we record this in February, but it's called, I guess I'm a dad now, our humorous handbook for newish dads who don't want to suck. So it's just like a handy little funny handbook for dads who are either. In that contemplation of should I had kids, should I had kids phase up to about five or six years old? Cause that's as old as my kid is. So if I, if I was giving advice on raising teens, I'd be doing it purely academically and I'm tired of academics telling me what to do. I want the tactical people who've been in the trenches. So it's a, it's a lighthearted read for dads who are new to the, new to the game of being a dad. Most parenting books are stuffy and overbearing. And if you haven't picked up on my general affect and personality, I can't stand that sort of stuffy over professional BS, I'm not going to swear in your podcast. So, um, it's, it's, it's, it's a light read. It's something that you can pop into any point in the book, get some good tools to be a better dad so that we can raise better kids. I actually, to relate to what we talked about, I have a whole section on what we feed our kids. I got a nice set of recipes in the back. The pre order is going to include some extra bonus recipes. I've referenced some awesome books by some of the people that we probably have all read together. So you're going to get some great tips on on, on staying a fit dad too. Cause I think that's crucial. You know, I'm excited about the, what you feed our kids. Cause I can't, I can't ever figure out what. To feed my three year old daughter, man. So, looking forward to that. Awesome, man. Well, this has been great. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story with us today, man. You know, I, I, again, the topics that you. You talk about here really enlightened my views on healthcare professionals, especially, you know, I know that, you know, patients are, are the focus, but there's a lot of people really vouching for the patients nowadays, right? And everybody is, but, you know, for healthcare professionals, they, like you said, that that, that that lady that you talked to that talked to you, that said that they, it's the first time that somebody ever listened, man. That's crazy to me. So, man, thank you for, you know, I believe this, this is something, this is, this is going to resonate with a lot of people a lot of, you know, healthcare professionals out there are burnt out and well, thank you for, for what you do. And I'm really grateful for, for, for your contributions, man. I mean, keep doing what you're doing and I appreciate you coming on. Oh yeah. Well, thank you for letting me come on your platform, share my silly stories, my weird improv background, all that unconventional stuff that I'm doing. And yeah, if you're listening and you're like, I want a little more Corey in my life, you can just go to Corey Jenks. com and you can link to all my social media stuff, send me a message there, connect on LinkedIn or. All that, all that good stuff's all out there on the internet. And yeah, my, my first name is C O R Y, no E. My parents are cheap, didn't buy the bell. So if you're looking for Corey Jenks with an E in Corey, you will, you will, you will find a different Corey, probably. So are you speaking, are you speaking any of these low carb conferences anytime soon? I don't have any on deck just yet. So, I'm, I was supposed to go to metabolic health summit as we record this a couple of weeks ago and I had two of my three kids get sick and I just couldn't saddle my wife with three, three kids under six at home, two of whom are sick. So I was going to go there and to attend and couldn't make it. So. We'll see adding kids to your life certainly complicates the travel plans for sure, but I love, I love going to them. And if, if you see me there and you've heard me on this, say, hi, I am, if I don't, if I don't acknowledge you, it's because my hearing is so bad. Yeah, maybe we'll meet, maybe we'll meet somewhere at one of these conferences. That'd be great. Yeah. Let me know when you're going to something. So awesome, man. Well, thank you so much. Once again, I appreciate you Corey for coming on. All right. Bye bye. All right. Have a lovely day. Thank you for joining me for another episode of the ketones and coffee podcast with Dr. Corey Jenks. As we discuss the role of leadership in building a better health care culture and the power of empathy and listening in healthcare, I have provided links to Dr. Corey jinx work and his socials PC the shoulder captions below. If you're learning from or joined the podcast, please subscribe to wherever you listen to your podcast, which is a zero cost wait there, support the podcast, and you can also leave as up to five star reviews on both Spotify and apple. If you have questions, please reach out to me on Instagram or our new website at keto coach. Lawrence. Dot com.