Remastered Episode: The Carnivore Diet Explained by Dr. Anthony Chaffee

In this episode of the Ketones and Coffee podcast, host Lawrence welcomes Dr. Anthony Chaffee, a medical doctor focusing on neurosurgery, former professional rugby player, and host of the Plant Free MD podcast. Dr. Chaffee shares his journey from discovering the negative effects of plant-based foods to adopting and advocating for a carnivore diet. 

He discusses the misconceptions about dietary fat and cholesterol, the detrimental effects of carbohydrates and plant toxins, and the benefits of a meat-centric diet on chronic diseases and overall health.

Dr. Chaffee also addresses common concerns about the carnivore diet, such as fiber intake and the process of adapting to a carnivore lifestyle, emphasizing the importance of education, understanding, and a commitment to change for achieving peak health.

00:00 Welcome to the Ketones and Coffee Podcast!

00:28 Introducing Dr. Anthony Chaffee: From Rugby to Carnivore Diet Advocacy

01:06 The Uncommon Path: A Doctor's Journey into Nutrition and Lifestyle Medicine

04:54 The Carnivore Diet: A Doctor's Personal and Professional Journey

05:10 The Turning Point: Discovering the Carnivore Diet

10:00 The Impact of Diet on Professional Athletic Performance

15:30 Rediscovering Carnivore: A Doctor's Reawakening

25:44 The Science Behind Carnivore: Understanding Our Biological Needs

30:06 Exploring the Primary Metabolic State: Fasting vs. Fed

31:40 The Carnivore Diet: A Deep Dive into Benefits and Nutritional Insights

33:58 Addressing Common Misconceptions: Carbs, Sugar, and Diabetes

37:00 Historical and Scientific Perspectives on Diet and Disease

42:44 Carnivore Diet as a Lifestyle: Strategies for Success

49:11 Debunking Dietary Myths: The Truth About Fiber and Meat

54:17 Transitioning to Carnivore: Tips and Personal Insights

58:17 Connecting with Dr. Anthony Chafee: Resources and Future Projects

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Transcript

0:49

Hey guys, this is Lawrence. So welcome back to the ketones and coffee podcast. And thank you so much for tuning in. I know everyone here that's listening are here because you want to create a sustainable, healthy lifestyle through the ketogenic diet. And every single week I try to bring in guests that not only has the knowledge, but these individuals has also been through the same trials that we all have been through when it comes down to our search. So For a better health, we get together in hopes to assist you on your own journey. So excited for this guys. Our guest today is an American medical doctor in his neurosurgical residency and a former professional rugby player. He's also the host of a podcast in the health and fitness world, the Plant Free MD, where he shares his knowledge with others on how to look and feel your best with a carnivore diet. If you are well versed in the carnivore space, you're likely to have heard of him before. Truly an honor. I'm here with Dr. Anthony Shafee. Doc, welcome to the show, man. Hey, thank you so much for having me. Good to see you. Awesome. Awesome. This is fantastic because I'm truly honored to have you on and share your story with us today. I'd like to dive in here because it's, you know, for me, it's really uncommon to hear doctors. the lifestyle change side of health and talking about nutrition, talking about a lifestyle intervention as opposed to just opting for the conventional way to treat conditions. There are so many things I'd like to talk to you about. First of all, how, how you got started. But before that, I'd like to start with the fact that you're You know, a doctor and you're also coaching people on how to start the carnivore lifestyle and you turn to dietary changes to help people reverse, you know, chronic disease and all of that. Please tell me there are more doctors like you out there. Is there, is this the new school of doctors that's coming out of schools today or? No, I don't think so. Unfortunately. No, they're not, they're not teaching that stuff in medical school at the moment. But you know, there are people that pay attention and I think all doctors try to pay attention. You know, some will get You know either either young or old doctors will get caught into that. Well, this is how we do things This is the traditional way and I learned this in medical school or in my residency and this is the way i've done it So this is the way it is and and of course that's not that's not the case things change all the time and even even in you know, Just a particular specialty. You have to stay current. You have to keep reading literature. You have to keep you know, you know challenging the status quo to see how you can do it better And So there are people that, that look at this or there are certainly doctors have been doing this for decades, actually, you know, and you know, even, even since the, you know, the 70s or beyond, they've, they've been, they've noticed this and recognize that you eat certain things, you will get certain diseases and have certain problems. And so they've been, they've been pushing this for a long time. But it is rare. It's more rare than, than just traditional side of medicine. But I have noticed that, you know, the other doctors that I speak to about this, and, and then it comes up with they're very interested in it. And, you know, so I think more and more people are incorporating this, or trying to incorporate it, or at least being interested in it for their own lives. And then they, We'll then recommend it for their patients as well. And since starting this, I've had a number of clinicians reach out to me or be introduced to me through mutual friends and they're doing exactly that. They're in a neurosurgical practice or they're in a vascular surgery practice. But they also practice functional medicine and try to get people better and keep them better and avoid surgery in the first place or avoid you know, unnecessary medical treatments in the first place, which is, it's so easy to do for a lot of these things. You just change your diet and and autoimmune issues just go away. Heart disease improves diabetes. Improves either type one or type two. So more people are starting to see it and hopefully we can get sort of a grassroots movement and, and get people more involved and more interested and make it, you know, an actual part of medical school. Yeah. So why don't we inspire those young doctors today? Maybe they'll come across this this recording and inspire them, you know, By understanding where you come from, understanding how you got here in the first place and and maybe inspired the, the, the new doctors coming into it that this is also a way to heal other people. And in the society today, obviously, you know, we have an epidemic going on with an obesity type two diabetes and all sorts of you know, chronic illness out there. But I understand that you've been living this lifestyle ever since you were in college. And it started when you learned the negative effects of plants when we consume them. If you don't mind, take us back to that time. I think it's truly important for our listeners to understand this was a turning point for you. I understand. Because this is when you had decided to only eat meat and take us back to those events that follow after that too. Yeah. Yeah. No, no problem. So I, at first, You know, radically changed my diet when I was when I was around 20, I was in can't taking cancer biology at the University of Washington in Seattle. And you know, we were, we were learning about cancer and different carcinogens and things that cause cancer and contributed to its you know, you know, pathology. We, we basically learned day one. about all the different plants that had a lot of carcinogens, you know, and this was, this was due to the fact that, that plants, you know, they, they are living organisms, but they can't run away or fight back like, like an animal can. So in order to stay alive, in order to flourish and prosper and, and to generate, you know, to, to procreate generation after generation, they have to defend themselves in other ways. And one of those ways, one of the main ways is by actually creating poisons and defense chemicals. that will poison, harm, or even kill the animals trying to eat that trying to eat that plant. So they can get, you know, quite, quite toxic results from that. And this, you know, this is something actually that, that, that we teach in, you know, obviously basic botany or horticulture. This is a, there's a very, very well known established fact. And, you know, You know, we've, we've isolated and identified tens of thousands of different toxic chemicals that exist in all plants. And something that I learned actually in seventh grade biology, which was, you know, plants and animals are in an evolutionary arms race. Plants becoming more and more poisonous. So less and less animals can eat them so they can survive and thrive. And then animals becoming more adapted and resistant to specific poisons in specific plants so that they can eat that plant safely and break down those harmful chemicals that into safe byproducts and so they can survive and thrive and then they can eat that plant and other things can't. So they don't have to compete for resources and and they can, they can keep going. We were learning this again in cancer biology, but from a cancer perspective. So we were looking at carcinogens and we learned that brussels, and again, this is 20 years ago, 20 some years ago. They had already identified 136 known human carcinogens just in Brussels sprouts, over a hundred just in mushrooms, like the white mushrooms that we use commonly and then given lists of all the different vegetables and, and and plants and plant material that we eat. So, each one had a number by it, and that was the number of carcinogens that had been identified and there were 60, 80, or over a hundred. known human carcinogens in each one. There wasn't a single one under 60 that I saw, and they were quite abundant. We've known since the 1980s, 1989, Professor Bruce Ames from UC Berkeley published a paper showing that there were 10, 000 times more toxic chemicals naturally occurring in plants than the pesticides we sprayed on them by weight. And then naturally occurring toxins were far more likely to cause cancer than the pesticides we sprayed on them. So the, the, the pesticides, that's why pesticides are still legal. They're actually trying to cure it. to ban them back in the 80s, and they did ban some. And then he, and then Bruce Ames did you know, different research and actually showed, like, well, actually, you know, it's a drop in the bucket compared to the spinach. You know, and so that's why we still have pesticides. That's why we can still use them. And of course they're toxic, but the plants are more toxic. And that was, that was the point. So, we were quite blown away by this. And, and I remember thinking he must be joking, he must be, you know, just screwing with us and like looking around every, all of us were just looking around wildly trying to see if there was someone who's just sort of like, you know, snickering or something like that to, to, to let, let us know that they were, they were in on the joke. No one was. And. It sort of dawned on us like, okay, this guy is serious. And I remember thinking in my head and I was like, but you know, vegetables are still good for you though. Right. And he, you know, he must've just read our mind because he looked at us all and just said, I don't eat salad. I don't eat vegetables. I don't let my kids eat vegetables. Plants are trying to kill you. So I was like, right, screw plants. And I just stopped, you know, and it's just like, that really hit home with me. I don't know if it, if it did with the other students in the class, but for me, I was just, I was just determined never to eat another plant. And. I went to the grocery store. I was looking around like everything was plants. Everything had plants in it. Pasta, grains, obviously vegetables, fruits, and, and all the different sort of ready made meals. They all had plants in them. They all had some ingredients that were plants. And so, you know, without knowing about whole food and this and that or carnivore, I just naturally gravitated to eggs, meat, and milk because those are the only things that didn't have plants. So that was my That was my litmus test that like, does it have plants in it? And I was like, okay, you know, that's what I ate. And so I just ate eggs, meat and milk for five years. And I was, you know, I was in university and no problem. You know, I never felt better in my life ever. And I was, you know, I was playing professional rugby and I was, I could not get tired. I could not run out of energy and I couldn't get sore. Like I don't get sore from working out now. That's the one thing that people really get upset about the most. They like, God, that can't be, you're a liar, all that sort of stuff. You know, because it's the inflammatory factors in plants that make you feel sore. Simple test. Don't eat any plants or grains for two weeks. Do a big workout. Yeah, and then eat some, you know, have a piece of toast and you'll see, you'll see right away within about 20 minutes or drink a couple coffee, you know, coffee. A lot of people drink coffee and carnivore keto, but I find that it actually increases inflammation significantly. And so if I do like a big heavy workout, I won't be sore. But I'll drink one cup of black coffee. I'm sure for two days, you know, so I noticed that that makes that sort of difference. And so people can test this on their own. But yeah, so I didn't get sore. I don't get sore now. And my performance just went through the roof and I was in incredible shape. I pushed myself so hard and then I got more results from the, the, the work that I put in. So I just had exponential growth as compared to myself on a normal diet and certainly as compared to my teammates and I unfortunately sort of slipped off of that when I was playing in England just because I didn't have the same access to food and some of the meat was breaded. And, you know, I didn't think it was that big of a deal if it was breaded because it was just a small amount, but it actually made a big difference. And I remember that, that was, that was the change over in from feeling amazing all the time to then having aches and pains and nagging injuries. And how long did that go for? For when I was in England, or how long ago when everything was perfect? When you're when you came back onto the carnivore diet, how long did that last when you realized, okay the carnivore diet was the Did you link Yeah. Eating meat only to feeling that great at that time. Hey guys, let me tell you about this delivery service that's been a total game changer for my lifestyle. Did you know that it's now possible to get local fresh groceries delivered right at your doorstep? Well, Instacart gives you unlimited grocery delivery for one low monthly fee. And if I can avoid buying non keto friendly items from supermarkets who psychs you into buying unhealthy foods, plus if it saves me a lot of time and money, sign me up! Instacart is hand selected by shoppers based on your preferences, so no more rock hard avocados, and they will keep your eggs safe too. And Instacart will find everything you usually buy, and get smart suggestions for new items. And you can get your first order today delivered for free when you purchase over 35, by following the link on the show notes below to let Instacart know that I sent you, and to help to support the show. Instacart, never step foot in the grocery store again. Yeah, no, so that's the thing, no I didn't. I didn't, I, I, I stopped drinking at the same time, like during the rugby season. So maybe I'd have like, you know, some you know, drinks or something like that after the season. But even then I would only drink like once a year. And I, you know, I remember sitting, sitting on the couch once and I remember thinking to myself, like, why don't I feel it's just absolutely unbelievably amazing as I normally do. I thought I was like, well, am I just not working out as hard? Am I not pushing myself? You know, I was 25. So I was like, is that it? Am I over the hump? Is this just downhill from here? Health wise, you know, because certainly when I was younger, I thought that was probably the case, you know, like my teammates are 25, you know, thinking about something like Jesus, you're dying. But you know, there I was 25 and thinking like, well, maybe that's it. Maybe I'm just, you know, my body's just breaking down now. Of course, it's not true. You know, we're, we're designed to live 120 years. So you can be in peak physical health well into your fifties or even sixties, because 60 is middle age. Really? Yeah. You know, if you think about it. And so, you know, you look at Alexander the great, you know, he had, he had his infantry men were ranged, you know, between 20 and 60, one of his generals and head of his cavalry was I think 76 and still in war, like fighting, you know, as a, as a 76 year old man. So, you know, we, when you eat properly, when you live properly, You actually, your body works a lot better and can maintain itself much better. So of course that wasn't the case. It was that I started eating things that I shouldn't have started. I didn't realize how much of a difference that made. And so I started slipping off just a little bit more. The main thing is it wasn't really necessarily just the breading that caused a problem, which it did. It's that since I made that bit of leeway, I started making more exceptions and more exceptions and more exceptions until at one point, I remember we're all like, sort of the team was getting together, like on a Sunday. I was like, Oh, why don't we all just make, you know, French toast and this and like, you know, they didn't, they didn't have that in England. They put like ketchup on it and stuff like that. They never put like, you know, jam and butter, which I thought was just crazy. So I like made it like how we would have in America. And then I remember that was, I haven't had this forever and I didn't even think about why that was, right. And it's like, Oh yeah, I don't eat plants. These things are trying to kill me. And it just. It was just a slow sort of slip off and I just didn't really notice what was happening. And, and then so I started eating more. I was still very meat centric. Always just ate a lot of meat. But, you know, it started to slip off so I started eating other things as well. And it wasn't until, I don't know, like 10 years later that, you know, I came across you know, and after medical school that I came across, you know, Dr, you know, Sean Baker on, on Joe Rogan. And my brother was saying, he was just like, Hey, you know, this guy, he's a doctor. He played professional rugby. And he's saying you can get all the nutrition you need for meat. And, you know, instantly that set up some warning flags, like, Oh, that can't, I can't be because you certainly get taught that that's not the case. And but I remember thinking back and I was like, well, I mean, I basically did that for five years, you know, I didn't eat any plants. And I remember thinking to myself, like, well, am I missing out on any nutrients? Like, should I eat a banana or something? But I remember like, you know, thinking that it was like, well, you know, I feel good and my gums aren't bleeding. So we'll just, just see how this goes. Just ride this out. And you know, never had a problem. So I was like, well, okay. You know, as I had that background, I was just like, well, it's actually not that far fetched because I did that without even thinking about it. And so, you know, You know, I'd say, all right, well, you know, i'll take it out and within five minutes of watching it I was like, okay, this guy's more right than he knows because I had a lot of other background that fed into his whole argument and so that was you know Like the plants are trying to kill you like cholesterol is actually good for you. Like fructose is is a very harmful agent and can cause different damage to your body just in the same way as alcohol does. You get fatty liver disease, cirrhosis, diabetes, heart disease, even it's even implicating cancer and Alzheimer's. So, I knew all that. And I thought that was very complimentary towards what Dr. Baker was saying. And so I just really just started digging into the research and really saying, okay, what do we know? What do we understand? What can we prove right now? And we can prove quite a lot and we can certainly prove that humans or carnivores have evolved as such. And you know, that's why we're, we're called apex predators. Top of the food chain. What does that mean? Does that mean you eat salad? Probably not. I've never heard of a cow being called top of the food chain, you know, and there's no herbivore that is top of the food chain because that's, not what that word means. That word means that you eat animals below you like a great white shark and you know, apex predators don't graze. And so yeah, that's easily easy to prove. And you just go on from there. So, that was sort of my reintroduction to it. And when I really really recognize what was actually going on. And when I really started digging into the research, and that was, that was probably about five years ago when I got back from doing humanitarian work in, in Bangladesh for the 2017 genocide that happened in Burma. So I want to know, like, where was the disconnect before you found out about Dr. Sean Baker? Where, because now we realized that, you know, the carnivore diet, I, I know, I know for me, in my experience, I go back and forth into the carnivore diet and my back pain will instantly be non existent and, and, and, you know, I would jump back and forth whenever I would want to feel great. It has that same effect with your, when you're fasting. For you, what was the disconnect there before you, because you remember you don't, you haven't linked this back to when you were doing carnivore. And. You didn't know you were doing carnivore at that time. And because of that, because you haven't made the connection, you didn't know that, you know, so much breading is causing you inflammation. So much of the other stuff you've add on to your lifestyle is causing you to feel much different from where you were. Where do you think was, is the disconnect from that time to what, what are we not understanding at that time? Do you think? No, I, I think you're, I think you're, you're right on there that I just, I just didn't realize how significant what I, what I was doing was I just, I did not realize how much of a difference it made in my life. I, I attributed most of my, you know, benefits to athleticism and endurance to the not drinking, which absolutely made a huge difference. Now that's plain as day. But. You know, the rest of it would, you know, gave a significant benefit as well. Well, it was a massive benefit. They both gave massive benefits, but it was, it was because I didn't, it didn't quite realize, you know, just how significant it was that I was able, that I, you know, slipped off and I continued to not drink during the rugby season. I, you know, continued to play really well and, you know, played for, you know, several years after that before medical school and then through medical school and beyond as a doctor during, during residency. So, you know, I continue to do that, but I would, I never had the same. Sort of results and, and ease of getting fit and, and peak level of fitness was, was very different. So it was just because it was just a slow insidious change for me because it just started with breaded chicken. And, and then it just, you know, slowly progressed and well, maybe this little other thing, maybe put a ketchup on things. I'll now make French toast and have jam on it. Hmm. Seriously, just never thought about these things, but they just slowly creeped in, slowly creeped in until I just stopped thinking about things in the same way. And because I wasn't thinking like I do a carnivore diet, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't like a you know, a hallmark to hold myself to and a standard to hold myself to. And then, after that, you know, there's just this inundation of, of propaganda really about, you know, plant based diet and how this is actually the healthiest for us. And we're really herbivores. And I was like, that doesn't make any sense. And you know, so I never bought into that, but, you know, they're saying that it's like, Oh, you need, you need, you know, Mushrooms and you know, there's dr. Furman who came up with a gomes diet to greens onions Mushrooms and beans seeds and all that sort of crap and it's just like that's the majority of it You can have some meat too, but like you make like a big ass salad and like that's that's your main meal maybe you can have some meat as well and And he was just pushing this and he was talking about these little things like, Oh, there's anti VEGF in mushrooms. So you really want that. It helps fight cancer. And my immediate thought to that was, okay, but it has over a hundred carcinogens, you know, does that really offset? And also, you know, anti VEGF is used to fight cancer. Sure. Do you have cancer? If the answer is no, then why are you taking chemo? You know, that, that's not a good idea. What you're, you're taking, you know, I mean, you, you, VEGF actually does something in your body and when it works pathologically, obviously that's a problem. But, it has a purpose. And so, now you're actually disrupting your normal, your normal functions of, of your body. So, you know, that, that sort of seemed a bit odd. And So I never really bought into that as well. But so I started, I just, you know, but I was like, all right, well I can eat some more greens. Like what's a big deal. And it was just a, just a little bit more, but I, I, I never ate a lot of this stuff. I certainly never ate a lot of carbs. Sometimes I would have something like, you know, pasta or whatever, but it it just, just didn't creep in that, you know, I was, I was doing something like that, that, that was harming me to that extent. And you know, I mean, I didn't buy fully into it because I kept remembering. I was like, well, you know, I took cancer biology and you know, these things have a lot of carcinogens in them and you know, so they can't be, or are they really that good for you on, on net benefit? And it, there is such this weight of you know, of, of, you know, personalities and doctors and recommendations saying that this is the way you have to do it, that, you know, it's, it's, it's difficult, you know, and, and it's difficult to you know, fight against that if you don't really know what you're fighting against. And so it was after. You know, I saw Dr. Baker that everything just clicked and it was just like, okay, that's what I was doing. That's what I was doing differently. That's why I felt so amazing. Now it makes sense. And, and so now, now it's very, very easy to, to fight against that because now I know what's going on. And you think about it like, okay, actually humans are carnivores. That's actually the kind of animal we are. And that makes perfect sense. And then you look at medicine, you know, through that scope that humans are animals. The kind of animal we are as carnivores, and we're not eating as such. And if you look at any animal, like in the zoo or in captivity or as a pet, if you feed them something that they don't eat in the wild, that they don't eat naturally, then they get, they get very, very sick. You know, it goes for dogs and cats. It also goes for zoo animals. And you know, this is why there are signs everywhere at the zoos or parks saying, don't feed the animals. You know, this food is not good for them. And then we, and then we give it to ourselves and thinking it's completely fine. So obviously that's a, that's not the case. And so everything in medicine just started slotting into place as well. I think also you're ready to hear it too. It sparked an instant curiosity. At that point in your life. I believe that carnivore is simple enough to understand, but I think it's our mindset that needs to shift, right? It's a totally different world. But I think also. Where the biggest problem is, is that there is still a negative connotation that's attached itself on red meat and fat. I know this for a fact, because my parents are terrified of it. Saturated fat causes heart disease. One red meat cause cancer. Fat is bad. You know, I believe you've talked about this numerous occasions. And the fact is that the people who needs this information the most. And the people you need to help the most are the people. Who are strongly opposed to carnivore, right? So let's get into the facts here. As a former pro athlete, as well as a, you know, a practitioner, you were so ahead of your time when you were doing, you know, your first stint with carnivore with the first five years, the carnivore diet hasn't been coined yet to be that you've been living that lifestyle now for, for several years. And you've talked about. You've always been interested in how the body works. I think that's one of the key things that sparked your curiosity. You always want to how to, you know, best feel your body to just learn that. How does carnivore work and why is fat the better fuel and what it, what does it do to the body? That's so effective in healing. Yeah, so, you know, that is, that is what really makes the animal kingdom go around and that's you, you'll see. See, nearly all animals in the wild get around 70 to 80 percent of their calories from fat and they always go for the fat first. This is why you see animals such as lions or wolves or hyenas or whatever. They always go for the belly first. This is where, you know, bacon comes from, the belly muscles. And so that's where most of the fat is. And then you get the fat around the organs as well. You know, mentum, it's, it's an organ, but it's, it's almost completely fat. You know, there's, there's. There's a fat around organs as well. And that's why people say, Oh, they go for the organs first. The organs are so important, so important, so important. And like, you know, like sure, like they have a lot of nutrients in them, but. You know, the, that's where the fat is as well. The rest of the animal is extremely lean. And so this is where mm, you know, that you'll, you'll see they go for the fat first. And you can even see this funny enough in like those survivalist shows where someone's like, you know, lost, you know, put out in the, in the middle of Alaska somewhere, and they just have to survive for months on end. They always have a store of fat and they're like, this is it. This is life. This is what you have to have, you have this store of fat or whatever. And they collect these things in, in tins or whatever, and then they'll have like a, you know. Badger or Wolverine, like, you know, raid their little food camp. They always go for the fat first. They just eat this can of fat. You also have, you know, you know, four organs working in concert just to absorb fat, right? You have liver makes bile. BIOL is stored in the gallbladder and then your pancreas makes enzymes to break down fat and that, you know, the bio emulsifies the fat and then your small intestine absorb it. So if that weren't really really really important, you know, you know, your biology wouldn't waste his time. Evolution or Creator, whoever. would never have wasted all this time and energy to make those things work together just to get that. Especially if it was bad for you, why, why would you spend so much energy and S and have so many organs working on this? If it just to absorb something that was super bad for you. So that doesn't make any sense on its face. Animals in the wild eat fat. I mean, every, everyone knows or is at least seen something about, you know, the Inuits and the people in, in Northern North America or Iceland or, or certainly Scandinavia and Siberia where they, they just eat blubber, you know, they're, they're sitting there eating, you know, whale blubber or seal blubber. And, and they, and they're just eating as chunks of fat. I remember seeing that as a kid. I was like, well, isn't that cause heart disease and that kill people cause cancer. And I was like, maybe something's different. And, and of course it, it isn't the case. And so it's it's actually very, very beneficial. So fat is extremely important. Fat also does not make you fats. Carbohydrates that make you fat you know, as I'm sure you know, and your, your listeners, if they follow and research a ketogenic diet, when you're in, in ketosis and the so called fasting metabolism, your, your biochemistry works very, very differently and you can actually access your fat stores. When you eat carbohydrates, it. First of all, it's bad for you. Higher blood sugar levels cause direct damage to your body through glycation. And to protect that, your body raises insulin defensively to get this level down because you are, you are harming yourself. Insulin has a long half life and so it stays up in your system for longer than you'd want it to. And so now your blood sugar is going low. Insulin forces energy into cells. It doesn't allow it to come out of cells. So now you have to just keep eating carbs to keep Bumping up your your blood sugar so you don't get really tired and horrible It also blocks leptin which is secreted from your fat cells. It tells your brain how much energy you need It's like a you know running cascade and so you know, it causes you to overeat as well because your brain can't see it's leptin. So it thinks you don't have any energy reserves and your blood sugar is dropping. So it thinks, Oh my God, we're starving. We're going to die. And so it sends this panic signal that says, if you don't eat now, you will die. And this is why three times a day people, Oh my God, I'm starving. I have to eat. And they get so upset. You know, we've coined the phrase hangry because of this. Well, you know, that, that, that shouldn't need to happen, you know, because, you know, even, even a slender, You know, individual like yourself, you have enough fat reserves to go weeks without any problem, you know, and after that, yeah, you'll, you'll start catabolizing your, your muscle tissue as well and start breaking down and you start really getting unwell. But you actually have a lot of energy there. It feels like, oh, well, I need to, I need to eat something on a race or a marathon. Like you don't, you really don't, you actually don't need to eat. But that, you know, just going back to the whole insulin thing, you know, when you eat carbohydrates and your insulin goes up, it just derails your whole metabolism. And so that's, that's not our primary metabolic state. I already know that. And when you look at animals in the, in the wild, that ketogenic state or that fasting state that we, you know, that we think of as secondary, it's actually their primary metabolic state. And that's the primary metabolic state of humans in the wild as well. Like the Inuit, like the Maasai, like the Australian aboriginals and so many other examples of, of carnivorous humans that are always in ketosis. So I argue that. that that fasting metabolism is actually our primary metabolic state. That's where all of our heavy machinery comes to bear. And, you know, even, even down to cellular metabolism, our mitochondria work better, they produce more energy. There are more mitochondria as well. So you get this, this you know, compounding increase in cellular energy. I just had an interview with Professor Thomas Seyfried of Boston College and formerly of Yale, who has, has, is one of the world's experts on cancer biology. And he just shows that it's the damage to mitochondria that actually precipitate genetic changes in your, in your cells and actually cause cancer because they go into a fermentation state instead of oxidative phosphorylation, phosphorylation. And this causes a lot of serious harm. And so Even down to the organelle level, carbohydrates screw with your body. So I don't think that for a second that that can be our primary metabolic state. So when you're eating a carnivore diet, you, you get into the metabolic state you're supposed to, you're not eating plants. that have harmful defense chemicals. So you're not hurting yourself there. You're only giving yourself the nutrition that you need. And the fat of course, as well is very important. So you're getting perfect nutrition. You're getting exactly what your body needs. You're in the proper metabolic state where your body can actually access its fat stores and, and function properly. Your mitochondria work well. better. You're not going to get sore because you don't have all these plant toxins in you, and you're not going to get all the detriments from even vegetables. And I know, you know, there's a lot of people in keto that eat a lot of vegetables because they think this is where I need to get my, my nutrients from. But you actually get all your nutrients from meat. There are actually no nutrients that exist in plants that you need that you can't get from meat. But there are things that you have to have from meat that you cannot get from plants. And so, you know, to me, that means. We're not omnivores, but we're obligate carnivores because we have to eat meat or we will die. So, you know that that to me is is pretty straightforward there as well. So there's a lot of reasons You know, and I think the only reason that we call this a fed state and not a fasting state is because by the time we were looking at biochemistry at a molecular level, everyone was eating carbohydrates. And so that's just, that's what they observed. When you eat, your biochemistry looks like this. When you stop eating, it looks like that. And so, and we have tons and tons and tons and tons of studies showing the benefits of fasting. But we also have studies showing that fasting mimicking diets, basically a keto diet gives the same benefits of that, that fasting gives. And then a carnivore diet, you know, is going to have even more than that because you're not, you're not eating any of the plant toxins either. So it's not, you know, so some people will, you know, I know Rhonda Patrick wrote a, wrote a 30 page paper sort of excoriating a carnivore diet and went on Joe Rogan and talked about it. One of the things she said. was that, well, you know, we have all that, we know that fasting really benefits people. So, you know, this just mimics fasting. So that's really where the benefits coming from. And, and, you know, my response is like, well, actually it's, it's, it's more to do that. Fasting mimics, you know, puts you in the biochemical Metabolism that you would be in any way that your body wants to be in any way so it's actually fasting that's mimicking a carnivore diet and And that that's that's what I think that the evidence shows. I want to pivot to Because you it's it's really it's really interesting to me that you know You keep talking about carbohydrates that causes all these issues and we all know that for a fact, but do you, do you work with type two diabetic patients you know, changing their lifestyle a lot? So I, I have a question because my dad, he was diagnosed with type two diabetes, my mom, pre diabetic last year, and they both came home from from the doctors about this news. And they don't talk about carbohydrates like you do. They talk about sugar. That's what I think that's where, that's where the disconnect is because my mom and my dad, they don't eat sweets. Right. And they're, they're probably, you know, bewildered because, okay, I don't eat sweets. It must run in my family because the carbs is never in conversation. Yeah. Right. And so, yeah, that's just bothers me. And that it's never mentioned. Carbs is never mentioned. And you never talked about sugar. You always talk about carbs, that form. Right. So how, how, how do people understand this very well? Because that's, that's the body. No. If it's sugar or carbs or it, does it matter? Yeah. So I mean, all, all carbohydrates are sugars. I mean, that's just sort of their, they're both interchangeable terms. We, we think of you know, just, just colloquially sugar as in like table sugar, you know, sucrose. Yeah. And so, and, and of course sucrose is, is a disaccharide molecule. Mm-Hmm. So it's, it's a conjoined of two. Carbohydrates of glucose and fructose. So, but they're all technically carbs, they're all technically sugars. Fructose in particular is, is, is quite harmful and, and independently will cause peripheral insulin resistance and, you know, damage to your, your liver and, and and so forth. And it's actually more, it does more glycation, glycosylation and oxidation damage to your body and to your cholesterol. Then even glucose. So having high blood sugar it, but, but they all, they all work you know, towards that end as well. Fructose, I think, I think is worse, but any carbohydrate is going to jack up your insulin. So it's going to jack up your blood sugar, which will damage you. And in response, your body will jack up its insulin, you know, which, Will curtail that effect of the high blood sugar, but it has its own problems, you know So, you know even even high insulin levels can cause harm, you know You know high insulin actually blocks the conversion of testosterone to estrogen in women's ovaries And so you can get this is this is a major cause of PCOS Which is you know, the leading cause of infertility and women and hormonal dysregulation so just the insulin itself can actually screw with you and You know, so As far as diabetes is concerned, that's a funny thing is that, is that we've papered over so many things that we, we have very clear evidence on because they said, that's bad, cholesterol is bad, heart, you know, therefore, you know, meat is bad. And so go to a plant based diet, you know, that happened after the USDA declared declaration in 1977, that. Cholesterol cause heart disease, which it doesn't that was complete fraud that guy who's head of usda who published that It's now a matter of record that he was he was being paid off by the sugar companies the journal of american medical association Actually published internal memos in 2015 showing this. Okay, so that's just a historical fact. That's not that's not up for debate so You know when when people did that they started basically just just completely changing our view You On, on health and nutrition and even medicine, because we have been treating type two diabetes and even type one diabetes since the late eighteen hundreds with a ketogenic diet. Okay. Even type one diabetics, this, this is hugely beneficial to them because it completely stabilizes their blood sugars. And, you know, so they need a very small amount of insulin and just a background dose. just to sort of make things run, run properly, but they barely need any at all. There's also been studies with fasting and then fasting mimicking diet in animal models. They haven't shown this in humans, but you can actually regrow the beta islet cells that make insulin in the pancreas in mice that have been put on fasting for four days a month or as little as four days a month. And you can do that again with a fasting mimicking diet, which is a ketogenic diet. And we've also been using ketogenic diets to treat refractory epilepsy for 90 years now. And you know, even in the 1800s, Dr. J. H. Salisbury and a number of others were using a carnivore diet, just a pure red meat and water diet to cure all sorts of, every autoimmune disease, but like specifically rheumatoid arthritis, Crohn's, ulcerative colitis, increase people's you know, immune system and, and help them fight off. tuberculosis easier. So people were surviving tuberculosis, which was a major, major killer in the 1800s, early 1900s. And you know, they found that that if you just went on a pure red meat and water diet, you could get over this far more easily than other people could. So, you know, this, this is stuff that's, that's been in the literature for a long time. Over a century, you know, even as recently as 1975, there was a gastroenterologist who wrote a book called the stone age diet, who again, argued humans are carnivores. That's the kind of animal you are and we're not eating properly. We're not eating as a carnivore should. And that's why we're getting these problems. And he argued from a gastroenterology point of view, you know, you know, Crohn's IBD, all these things and all these, these, these GI issues, you know, even, you know, colon cancer and so forth. If you don't eat plants. these things don't exist, you know? And You know, that's the thing, you know, animals in the wild don't get cancer. You know, animals in the zoo, when fed their normal diet, don't get cancer. Dogs and cats, they get cancer. But they didn't in the 1970s and before that. It was very, very rare. When, when we were not feeding them packaged dog food with a bunch of plants and grains. We just gave them, you know, meat. and table scraps. So you know, this, this is a derangement of our biochemistry and our biology and that's what's precipitating the cancer. Cancer is, is is a very different than what I was taught in medical school as, as shown by Professor Seyfried. He's very, very, very strong evidence to show this, that this is mitochondrial metabolic disease as opposed to a genetic disease. So it's, It's something that's so easy to treat you know, like diabetes and, and and these other issues as well. They don't, they don't exist really, if you don't treat them. If you, you know, don't eat plants and don't eat sugar. And that's sort of the premise of a book I'm writing, which is that the so called, you know, modern chronic diseases that we treat are first of all, very, very new. These, these things didn't actually exist. To any great extent, even, even half a century ago. Now they're the only things retreat and you know, you can see that this perfectly matches our change to a more plant based diet increase in sugar and carbs as well. And, and, and eating less meat and especially less fat. And now these diseases have skyrocketed. You know, we've reduced our cholesterol and fat intake by 30 percent reduced red meat by 33 percent and heart disease rates tripled. So how are you saying that, Cholesterol causes heart disease when you reduce cholesterol and heart disease increases. If anything, you can say that it's protective, but you know, which it is actually, that's what all the studies show now that there's an inverse correlation between saturated fat and saturated fat and LDL cholesterol and and heart disease and stroke or, and Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and and longevity. So, you know, these, these things are, are very, very helpful. Mm. And you know, the cancer rates, cancer rates tripled as well since the 1980s. So again, you know, these so-called chronic diseases, I don't think are diseases per se. I think that they're toxicities, toxic buildup of species and appropriate diet and a lack of species specific nutrition. So it's toxicities and malnutrition and basically too many plants, not enough, not enough meat. And there are, there's a ton. Of evidence in the literature already to, to show that man, I can't wait to get that book. That's in the works, man. Let me know when that's out. I'll I'll get, I'll get my copy. Man. Yeah, definitely. People seldom find, you know, carnivore like you did. Most people usually find carnivore from a failing health metabolic disease. You know, I've seen, you know, people have gut issues, mental illness too. Yeah. Right? The list goes on and on and on, not to mention you really have to have an open mind, curious, and you know, only when traditional medicine couldn't help them anymore and in most cases, it only works when somebody's desperate enough to try long, to try it long enough to see results, right? So, for people who are ready to take on this journey, Can you take them through a way that you've taught your clients for maximum follow through and effectiveness to reach that peak health through Carnivore? Cause it's, it's not easy. It's simple. Very simple, but it's not easy. Yeah. But take us through how one can, you know, sustain this diet starting in the beginning. Yeah, I mean, I think that, I think that education and understanding, you know, what, what you're doing, what the premise is, is really important, you know, because if, if you think of this as just like a temporary crash diet or whatever. Or even, even sometimes you hear in, in the keto space, they say, well, this is, this is a way of, of, of tricking your body into thinking it's starving to death. And then somehow this benefits you starving to death. Which of course, that's not the case. This isn't, this is, we aren't starving to death. We aren't putting ourselves into a stress state. And that's what some people say. It's like, Oh, you know, you gotta be careful about ketosis. It's really harmful to you. You, you're, your body's in a stress state. This will increase cortisol, which will do X, Y, and Z and blah, blah, blah. None of that is true. This is our primary metabolic state. So having people understand that, having people understand that this, this is what we are biologically adapted and designed to do is very important. And that this isn't something that you just, you just do and you crash through until the diabetes goes away or until the rheumatoid arthritis goes away. And then you just go back to eating poison, because obviously, you know, what I'm saying is like, this is, this is a poison model as opposed to a disease model. Right. So, you know, you have lead pipes and you get lead poisoning. So you stop drinking water from the lead pipes and like, Oh, I don't have lead poisoning anymore. I can go back to drinking lead, drinking from lead pipes. Like, well, okay, no, you know, you don't want to do that because you're just going to get lead poisoning again. And this is why I have, I take issue with some of the carnivore people saying that, Oh, you, if you're metabolically healthy, You can eat, you know, fruit and honey and things like that which will make you metabolically sick. Okay, now you're metabolically healthy. You won't stay that way if you're eating the things that will cause damage to your metabolism and your metabolic health. So it's just understanding that understanding the the The, the fundamental, you know, always going back to first principles, you know, we are carnivores, that is the kind of animal we are, this is where we get all of our nutrition from, and plants are trying to kill you, all right, insofar as we're trying to kill them, right, you know, because they're not, they're not, you know, stalking us at home or anything like that, but they're, you know, they, they will defend themselves. You know, and they will, they will kill you to stay alive and good for them. You know, that's, that's what animals do as well. And that's what all life does. So that's that's just the nature of these things. And so just understanding that and saying, okay. This is, this is, this is it. And, and just, you know, focusing on what not to eat as, as much as what to eat. You know, because everyone, a lot of people will go carnivore and, and they'll just start eating a lot more meat and, and then they'll say, Oh, but I'm still having this problem. I still having that problem. It didn't quite work for me. Like I feel better and I'm losing some weight, but you know, it's not really doing, you know, what it's doing for other people. almost invariably they are eating something that they shouldn't, they're using artificial sweeteners you know, stevia or still drinking coffee or doing, doing something that is curtailing their results. And so, you know, they say, Oh, well, you know, carnivore, I felt really good and it reversed my autoimmune issues, but I didn't really lose weight. So it didn't work for me and you know, obviously, you know, they, they didn't quite do full carnivore. Now there are some people that don't lose weight right away. You know, their, their metabolism and their hormonal health has to, has to adapt and readapt to you know, normalcy because they've been, You know, sabotaging their own health for so long with all these, well, eating the wrong thing, but also with you know, these, these very crash, you know, crash diets that are really damaging to your metabolism, but eventually that will, that will heal and that will get better. And, and your body will start working normally if you're eating pure meat and water. So it's just explaining that to them that, you know, it's as much what not to eat as what to eat. So, you know, my hard rule is no plants, no water. No sugar, nothing artificial. And that would go for sauces, seasonings, and drinks as well. So really just eat meat and water and get enough fat. And you want your fat to be, you have a fat intake. Sufficient to keep your stools soft because that's, that means that you're getting enough fat and there, there are reasons for that. But you know, your, your body can only absorb a certain amount of fat and after that it, it just goes out in waste. So you really can't overeat fat. You know, I just, You know, I disagree with that, that concept, you know, just, just intellectually, because it's, it's almost impossible for your body to absorb fat without bile. It can a bit, but most of it will actually get excreted. And it's that excess that's in the stools that gets excreted, that will keep your stool soft. And so if your stools are soft, that means you have your body's getting as much fat as it wants. And then there's a little extra, so you know, you're topping it up. And if you eat a lot more than you'll get loose stools, so you can just, you can just pull it and then it's just, Just, just, you know, encouraging them, you know, to, to get through the first couple weeks, which is where you'll be withdrawing from sugar and carbs and all these different things that you've been eating that aren't good for you and you sort of get that stuff out of your system. And then after it's all out of your system, after about two weeks, then you really just start hitting your stride and you'll just feel better than you ever have. And your body will just start transforming and your health will start transforming. You know, and it's just, just, you know, letting them know just to keep it simple, just eat meat, just drink water, salt to taste and that's it, you know, and you know, so there's sort of a, sort of a lot in there, but, you know, the main thing is just education, letting them know that this is, this is actually a natural way to eat. This is not something with a time limit on it. This isn't something that you, you do for a short period of time and then you have to get away from it because it's going to harm you. It will not harm you. Your natural diet, your biologically appropriate diet will never harm you. Anyone at any age, any gender, any stage of life, any medical condition, you know, I mean you get some people with like, you know, they get bitten by whatever the Lone Star tick and it gets, you know, certain, you know, versions, but that, you know, that's, that's not, you know, in your genetics, that's something that you've been, you've been exposed to. So, you know, it's just, yeah, just, just. having people understand that and understand that this isn't a diet. This isn't something you do short term. You want to try to actually make this a lifestyle and say like, I'm not going back to that. And that's when people have, have, have real benefit and real results is when they just, they actually change their lifestyle. What's the one question that you've been asked over and over the most? It's usually about like constipation and things like that. It's just like, you know, why am I constipated? You know, don't I need fiber? Oh yeah, that's a big one. Yeah, that's about fiber. Yeah. Yeah. No, you don't need fiber. In fact, you don't want fiber. Fiber is harmful. It's it's, you know, it's, it's sawdust and they actually add sawdust to a lot of processed foods to increase their fiber content because now fiber is classified as an essential nutrient, essential meaning that it is essential for life. And if you do not take it in in your food, you, you'll die, you know what I'm saying? So I accept that they haven't really described a, a fiber deficiency deficiency You know, like, you know, like B12 deficiency, you know, and so it's it's a bit, it's a bit ridiculous to me that they would even call that a an essential nutrient. But either way, it's not, it's it's something that our body can't use and has to excrete. And then it argues that, then people argue that, well, that, no, that's actually a good thing that, you know, now you're giving your, intestine, you know, some bulk to like move things through and you want to move it through fast. You know, but there's, there's not actually no evidence to say that that's what you want. You know, your colon is, is desiccating and drying out and pulling the water from your stools for a reason. That's its job. You know, you're, you're conserving water. Now that's a, that's a good thing. You know, life is very efficient and, and you know, You know, you, you don't waste things. If you're, if you're wasting nutrients, if you're wasting water, you're going to die. Like, you know, most of the, you know, the, the history of life on earth is, is about not getting, you know, you know, struggling to get resources, struggling to get enough food, struggling to get enough water and fighting for those resources. And so if we are just wasting water, wasting nutrients, you know, fiber blocks your body's absorption. of various nutrients. And so people say, Oh, that's a good thing. So it'll actually help you lose weight because it'll stop you from absorbing nutrients. It's like, why would that be something that That would be beneficial in the wild. Why would that be something that would, you know, help us out to survive? Well, there'd be a survival you know, benefit like that. That doesn't make any sense. You know, you want to, you want to conserve as all the nutrients and all the water that you can. So yeah, fiber is very bad for you. And it also causes micro abrasions in your gut lining. increased mucous secretion, increased inflammatory response. And I think is, is a main contributor to autoimmune diseases like Crohn's and ulcerative colitis. And I talked to people. With Crohn's and ulcerative colitis, invariably, when they go on a carnivore diet, just pure meat and water, it's, this is completely reversed within three months. I mean, well, within three months, it's usually, usually they don't have any you know, within a couple of weeks, they stop having any flare ups and they start getting better and better. I have yet to see someone get a biopsy after three months that didn't show complete resolution and no sign of inflammation. Not a, not a single person. that I've seen has not had complete resolution on biopsy after three months of carnivore. And so they have told me that, you know, Fiber in particular really screws them up anything with fiber in it They'll eat that and and they'll instantly have a flare up and they'll just have any a bloody diarrhea and you know intractable pain For days and so, you know, I did this isn't something that's good and you don't need it to keep your stool softer Then to avoid constipation Because it's actually fat That does that. It's actually fat that keeps your stool soft. And what people also don't realize is that you absorb like 98, 99 percent of the meat that you eat. And so you're just going to go a lot less. That's not constipation. Constipation is if it's dry and hard, that's what constipation is. And so maybe you'll only go once or twice a week, but if that's, that's soft and a normal consistency. That, that's perfectly fine. That's not constipation. Which is also funny, you know, when, when people say that, you know, like your parents were saying that, you know, the vilification of meat, this causes cancer. It absolutely does not. There's no evidence of that. And the, the weak epidemiological correlation was, has been thoroughly debunked and other studies have shown there's no correlation and in fact a reverse correlation. And so then they say that, oh, your body actually can't process, it can't break down meat. It's not really good at that. But then they say, oh yeah, you should eat fiber because your body can't break it down at all. So, you know, your body, your, your digestive tract is a tube. It's a one way Go, it's not like there's little outpouchings where just, you know, unprocessed meat just, just sits, it will go out. If you eat a steak and you cannot break down a steak, you will excrete a steak, you know, but that doesn't happen. Yeah. You know, but when you eat fiber, when you eat plants, that's exactly what happens because you actually can't break down fiber. You can't, there, no vertebrate animal can break down fiber, you know, it's actually the bacteria and the guts of, of herbivores that break this down. The animal itself is not doing that. And so it yeah. You know, it is the case that it's actually fiber and plants that are impossible to break down and meat is what we're, we're very adapted to breaking down and absorbing. It's funny because you say that it's, it has been debunked so many times, but it's still stuck with people, you know, unfortunately is there a way to ease yourself into this lifestyle or you just jump into it? You could, you know, I think that at some point you have to rip the Band Aid off, you know, and for me it was much easier just to, just to jump into it. You know, when you look at smoking or, or drinking or, or, you know, getting away from drugs, you know, all, all the studies that I'm aware of. I've shown that that cold turkey is a way to go now There's certain things like you know with alcohol or with you know Benzodiazepines that if you come off off right away and you don't wean yourself off. Yeah, it's actually dangerous but things like opiates or or cigarettes obviously you can just come right off or coffee caffeine those you can just come right off and then you'll get through the withdrawal period and But it's not dangerous. You just you just feel miserable, but but it ends and so that's sort of how I I feel with with the food as well. There's some people that argue that you really should do it in a more slow, gradual way. And they have certainly good reasons for that. You know, Professor Barrett Kaye, who I, I've you know, much admire and have a lot of respect for it. You know, he, he says that this is, you know, some people can get. a disruption in their microbiome. If they, if they switched too early or, or, you know, too, too rapidly and they should, you should do sort of a, you know, slow progression and you know, and anything that guy says is well researched and well thought out. So, you know, I've definitely got a lot of time for anything that he says for me, it, it was fine. And and I've certainly noticed that, that most people that I talked to and coach have, have been fine just going cold Turkey. And. you know, it may be that some people have a problem and they need to sort of address things differently. But at some point anyway, if you're, if you're going to wean off or you're going to just stop at some point, you just have to rip the bandaid off. And so at some point you're just going to have to say, okay, today's the day. And this stops. And so I, I, I find that it's a bit more difficult, you know, like, it's like the person who's just, Oh, I'm going to cut down smoking. I'm cutting down smoking, cutting down smoking. And then they've been, you know, quote unquote, you know, quitting smoking for 20 years. You know, and, and, and now they're smoking more than they were 20 years ago when they started quitting and it's so I, I think that if you're going to wean this stuff down, you have to have a clear plan on what you're going to do for me. I think that you just, just, you just get into it and just. Stop. I think that that works. You just, here's the line. This is the day. This is what I'm going to stop. It's really good. And you just, you just throw all the crap out of your house. You know, you just get rid of it. Because you don't want that there. You don't want that there as a, as, as as a lure. You know, because if you have something in the house at some point, you're going to eat it or you're waiting till the day that you're like, Oh, well, this is just a short term thing. You really want to commit and just say like, okay, this is what i'm doing. I don't need any of this this crap anymore because i'm never going to eat it again Because it's bad for me and i'm not going to eat things that are bad for me anymore And then you get it out of out of sight out of mind and then you can really really focus on what you're doing so I think I like jumping into it. There are certainly arguments for, for weaning into it, but if you're going to wean into it you should be very careful and have a clear set out plan. I'm going to eat. You know less and less and less every day every week or whatever until you're like on this date. I'm just stopping all plants you know, so But at some point you do have to just stop Awesome. Well, thank you so much for god. I can speak to you for for hours, man like there's so much here that for our listeners to I I would get but I would go back, you know, we listen and just take my notes and and start writing man because you There's a lot that you've Out for us here. That's really important to understand to just learn about the benefits of the carnivore diet and you know, how to live that lifestyle. And so thank you so much for coming on, sharing your story. Dr. Anthony Shafee. It's been a pleasure. Yeah, not a problem. Thank you very much for having me. It's been, yeah, it's been a pleasure. Where can people find you? Yeah. So I have I have a YouTube channel, just Anthony Chafee MD, and I have a lot of videos up there and I try to, I try, I, well, I put something up every week. Sometimes, you know, two or three videos a week. And Yeah, and that's just Anthony Chafee is my, Anthony ChafeeMD is my YouTube channel. I have an Instagram as well, and the same name, just Anthony ChafeeMD, and I, I'll post when I'm putting something up on YouTube or my podcast. And then as you mentioned I have a podcast as well. It's available on any, any podcast. podcast platform called the plant free MD with Anthony Chafee with Dr. Anthony Chafee. And and that's pretty much it for the social media. I do some stupid stuff on TikTok and put up like some videos and things like that as well. But, but those are the main ones. And yeah, so, and I'm speaking at Keto Con this weekend as well, and doing it in a carnivore panel as well as a, as a talk. Mm-Hmm. and a couple of conventions like that. But yeah. And, and I post a lot of that stuff on, on you on on Instagram, sort of what I'm gonna be doing and when as well. Are you able to, oh, and then I have your, the book. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so the book, I'm, you know, I've got it all outlined. I've got it all, all sort of drafted what I want to do. And I was just about getting it all on paper, but, you know, I work, you know, neurosurgical residency. It's like, you know, it's, it's a hundred plus hours a week, easily, you know, sometimes the most I've done is 135 hours. And that was, that was a bit. hectic and it was straight into the next week, you know, of doing sort of the similar, similar hours. So, you know, then doing the videos and the podcasts and, and interviews and, you know, coming to KetoCon it takes a lot of, you know, a lot of time that you know, that I have in reserve is, is sort of done with that. And then so it's been a bit difficult, but yeah, I'm, I'm, Certainly working on getting this stupid thing written all for a great cause all for a great cause hopefully Awesome. Well, hopefully hopefully it helps people Well, you you're helping me right now just understanding, you know, the science behind everything and I'm so grateful for you Just you know sharing your story just being on here and speaking to our listeners man. Dr. Anthony Shafi. Thank you, sir Thank you very much. Appreciate it. All right. Thank you. Thank you.