Lead Culture with Jenni Catron

218 | Revolutionizing Church Leadership: Strategies for Healthy Congregations and Efficient Management

• Art of Leadership Network

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Are you ready to revolutionize your approach to church leadership? With us on this journey are Scott Holthaus & Kacie Frazier from Ministry Brands, who are charging the way in fostering healthy leadership within churches. They'll be sharing their expertise on harnessing the power of digital tools to grow and sustain a healthy congregation. The state of a leader can often be mirrored in their church, so we're bringing the focus back to nurturing the well-being of church leaders.

Changing gears, we delve into the idea of outward-focus and its intrinsic link to church health. It's time to reassess how we measure the health of our churches and adopt an impactful strategy of "eliminate, delegate, automate, and invest". It's all about reclaiming your time, taking advantage of tools and AI to automate tasks, and redirecting that saved time into self-learning, community building, and further delegation.

And lastly, we don't shy away from the nitty-gritty. Let's tackle the cultural pressures church leaders face head-on, from combating the worldly noise to preventing burnout and isolation. Here, we challenge the enemy's lies that can discourage leaders and offer ways to uplift them. And to help even further, we introduce you to the Healthy Church Hub from Ministry Brands, a treasure trove of resources for church leaders. Hear from Scott and Kacie on how to overcome these obstacles, equipped with practical strategies to cultivate healthier leaders and, consequently, healthier churches.

About Scott & Kacie
Scott has spent the last 17 years in full-time ministry overseeing worship, creative, and communications in a variety of contexts from church plants to mega-churches. He now develops content at Ministry Brands (including co-hosting the Church Leadership Lab podcast) and helps church leaders embrace tech to grow healthy churches.

Kacie has spent the last 16+ years serving the church in a variety of contexts and roles. From serving in local ministry to equipping the broader Church, she's become an expert on using digital tools to help lead and grow healthy churches. With an MBA from Northeastern State University, Kacie brings dynamic leadership skills, digital savvy, and a genuine heart for the Church.

Culture Conference 2023
Culture Conference is free to you because of amazing sponsors like our friends at Ministry Brands. Ministry Brands helps nearly 90,000 purpose-driven organizations grow and increase their impact on the world. They provide community and organizational leaders with integrated solutions covering people and donor management, digital giving, websites, communications, media, event planning, employee and volunteer background screenings, and more. Together, their nearly 700 associates help clients transform how they operate and create positive ripple effects that drive the real human impact for which we all strive. Visit ministrybrands.com to learn more, or head here to register free for Culture Conference. 

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Jenni Catron:

The Art of Leadership Network. Hey everyone, I'm your host Jenni Catron, and this is the Lead Culture Podcast, where I coach you to lead yourself well so you can lead others better. My team and I at the 4sight Group are committed to building confident leaders, extraordinary teams and thriving cultures. Each week, we'll take a deep dive into a leadership or culture topic that will give you the tools you need to lead with clarity and confidence and build a thriving team. Now, friends, if you're listening at the release of this episode, Culture Conference is just two days away, and so this is your last call. Are you registered? Get yourself registered. Culture Conference is happening on August 10th, and it is a free digital conference designed to help you build thriving teams, cultivate inspiring workplaces and achieve your mission. You guys, the health of your team is arguably the greatest asset you have in achieving your mission, and so this is a free one-day event where you're going to hear from amazing speakers like Pat Gelsinger, the CEO of Intel, Valorie Burton, a life strategist and bestselling author and coach, Josh Howerton, senior pastor of Lake Point Church, New York Times bestselling author, Jon Acuff, and so many more like great leaders who are equipping you with practical tools that will help you and your team really truly build a healthy culture and ultimately achieve your mission. So get yourself registered, go to cultureconference. org, share it with a friend, carve out that space in the afternoon and really just soak up the content so that you can help continue to invest in the health of your team. Now Culture Conference is free to you because of some amazing sponsors, like our friends at Ministry Brands.

Jenni Catron:

Ministry Brands helps nearly 90,000 purpose-driven organizations grow and increase their impact on the world. They provide community and organizational leaders with integrated solutions covering people and donor management, digital giving, websites, communications, media, event planning, employee and volunteer background screenings and more. Together they're nearly 700 associates, help clients transform how they operate and create positive ripple effects that drive the real human impact for which we all strive. So you can check them out at ministrybrandscom. And speaking of Ministry Brands, today my guests are two of the team members at Ministry Brands, Now, Scott has spent the last 17 years in full-time ministry, overseeing worship, creative and communications in a variety of contexts, from church plants to mega churches. He now develops content at Ministry Brands, including co-hosting the Church Leadership Lab podcast, which we hint at a bit in the episode, and I've had the privilege of being a guest on, and Scott helps church leaders embrace tech to grow healthy churches.

Jenni Catron:

Kacie has spent the last 16 plus years serving the church in a variety of contexts and roles, from serving in local ministry to equipping the broader church. She's become an expert on using digital tools to help lead and grow healthy churches. With an MBA from Northeastern State, Kacie brings dynamic leadership skills, digital savvy and a genuine heart for the church. So, friends, this conversation with Scott and Kacie, it's a little preview to what you're going to hear from them at Culture Conference, so it's a great little sneak peek of what we're going to be talking at Culture Conference, but they dig into the subject of what do healthy church leaders look like?

Jenni Catron:

And, honestly, you guys, while Ministry Brands focuses primarily on serving the church, for those of you in nonprofits or businesses, the principles that they share about what does healthy leadership look like are so incredibly helpful and impactful, and so I really think you're going to enjoy hearing from these guys, and I want to encourage you to go to MinistryBrands. com to check out the work they're doing there. So here's my conversation with Scott and Kacie. Well, Scott and Kacie, thanks for joining me. We're flipping the tables because you all had me on your podcast back in the beginning of the year and we're having you on Lead Culture today, so thanks for joining me. Thank you.

Jenni Catron:

Like, welcome back. Well right, like we're back together.

Scott:

I don't know if we can say welcome back when we are the ones it's like like all three of us welcome back together, Welcome back to the Zoom room together recording a podcast.

Jenni Catron:

This is our lead culture. I love it, hey, and we are really, really grateful. This week is culture conference week, as we're as this releases, it is culture conference week. You guys are one of our sponsors for the second year in a row, I believe and we are really grateful to have you guys joining us again for culture conference. So I am excited about our conversation today because I want leaders to get to know more about ministry brands, the work you guys are doing, your heart and investment in leaders and again, just thank you for partnering with us in culture conference, because the investment in leaders, I think, is so critical and in leaders and their teams, and so it's going to be a good week.

Kacie:

I can't wait.

Jenni Catron:

Let's kick off. I'd love for you guys to share just a little more about your heart for healthy church leaders. Like at ministry brands, that's a big priority for you guys, and so I'd love to hear, like how are you guys defining health? What are some of the marks of health? What does that look like for the leaders that you're serving?

Scott:

Yeah, absolutely, and it is. That's a big thing for us because, as it goes, not only in ministry and the church, but as it goes in your organization, in your business, in your nonprofit, whatever it is, typically the health of the leader will be reflected in the health of the church, in the health of the organization. And so you know, for us it's about seeing churches get healthy, and what that means is church leaders getting healthy as well, and I know that that's like so you say healthy and you're so okay. So what is like? What is athlete?

Jenni Catron:

What does that mean?

Scott:

Right, you know we look at physical health. Is that like I'm running Ironmans every other weekend? Does that mean, like, my numbers are a certain spot, my doctor says a certain thing? What is that? And I think you know we've talked a lot about this.

Scott:

But when it comes to health, there are some things that are specific to the church and the context that they're in. You know, is this a micro church? Is this a mega church? Is this a church plant? Is this a church that's been around for 150 years and is trying to transition from one way of ministry to another? So I think there's some of those details that a church defines from the cells.

Scott:

But I do think, like when you step back, there are a few things that are universal across the board for a church to have in order to be healthy. I think one of them is to be united, and we see that, like in what Jesus prayed for the church. We see that in just the importance of being unified and being one. And again, that goes beyond if you look at any organization. When you have unity, when you have people who are like, we're all on the same page, we're all moving the same direction, we all have the same mission in our minds, like that is, can be so powerful, and so I think that that one like unity is a huge thing.

Scott:

The other thing and this has been interesting in some of the conversations Kacie and and I have been able to have on our podcast is hearing this more and more, but church is being self-aware, and what I mean by that is like know who you are and know who you aren't and be okay with that.

Scott:

And it's been really cool to have these conversations with different pastors and church leaders who are like sharing how that then goes on to actually impact what you do, what you say yes to, what you say no to, what you allow in, what you allow out. Defining these sort of boundaries of this is who we are, and then so, yeah, I think I think unifying some marks of health, unified self-aware. And then the last one, I think is focused just being really clear about this is where we're going Again, when you can have that and everyone can be on that page and know that destination, know what it means to be successful, know what it means to not be. I think those are a few things that, regardless of the context, the size, whatever it might be, those are present when we talk about, you know, a church being healthy and a leader being healthy.

Jenni Catron:

And I think, gosh, those are so good. I love, you know, because we do. We throw out that, oh, we want to be healthy, you know. And what do we mean by that? I mean we can make some assumptions about it. And of course, we think of the spiritual health of the church or the leaders we think of. You know, emotional health, you know, again, important things and obviously really key things.

Jenni Catron:

But I love how you pulled out those things, especially as you're related to, like, culture and teams and the church to be able to really be a momentum towards the mission.

Jenni Catron:

And you know you guys work specifically with churches, but those three things apply to any organization or any team of like, hey, do we have that unity and alignment? Because I mean just the exponential momentum that happens when we're united as a team is, you know, just like none other. But then that self-awareness I mean that's a huge one because we talk about it for individuals but there is we'll often share. We talk about it as organizational self-awareness, like, do we understand that who we are? And I love how you said that who we aren't, because so many times then we just do too many things or say yes to all the things instead of being really then laser focused like your last one. So I love those indicators of health because I think sometimes we either get caught up in the spiritual and emotional side of health or we get fixated on, sometimes, data and metrics that might be indicators of health. And I feel, like you guys, those are three really helpful additional pieces to think about when you think about health. That's good.

Scott:

Yeah, yeah, and I think that it's easy to do the metrics because you can measure them.

Scott:

I can tell you exactly how many people are there on Sunday, or I can tell you exactly what our giving is at, or how many people are in small groups, and those are not. I'm not saying you don't measure those things Totally, but what's interesting is and we've seen this as over the last few years, there's obviously been a major shift, and so there's much more of the thought of what does digital ministry look like, what does our presence look like online? So some of those metrics that we've measured for the last 20, 30 years are shifting a little bit, because now we didn't have the same amount of people sitting there on Sunday, but we're actually seeing engagement in people, a part of our church, who are online, or you know what I mean and so there starts to be a change in some of those. So it's not that those don't matter, but I think especially thinking about what can be universal, regardless if we're online, if we're in person, that we can look at and objectively say is this true or not in regard to our health.

Kacie:

Yeah. But, Scott, you mentioned physical health too. Right, and just like, my version of what's healthy for me might be different than yours, Jenni, and your, Scott, because we're different human bodies, so we get this question of what makes a healthy church, because we've really kind of doubled down on that's. What we exist to do is to build tools for healthy churches. But something that's important for me is we're not the one saying what health is or isn't, is helping you decide what your measures of health are. To Scott's point, what kind of church are you? Where are you in your journey of your existence? So I can't tell you what a measure of health is for you, because that actually might not match with your universal vision. So, knowing I can't go mock or imitate someone else's measures of health, because we're not the same churches, just like we're not the same humans.

Kacie:

I loved my jobs kind of fun. I get to just partner with other people and go. What fun things can we do together? I loved interviewing Sean from the Unstuck group and learning about how they do assessments of churches. He said something that I hadn't thought about before and it made me actually feel very selfish or realized that I'm a selfish human being. It's like if your vision of your church is not like I'm going to get the number wrong, I don't even know if you said a number, but like 80% about the people who aren't part of your church, and you're missing the boat. So, being more outward focused, if we're so inward focused, goodness so. Is that a measure of health? Are we community minded? Are we all these things? There's not a one size fits all, but it's really important that each church decide for themselves what is our measure of health? What are our marks? So we just have to be like we shouldn't be the ones answering that question.

Jenni Catron:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and helping kind of give spark, the spark, the conversations and the questions to go what is, yeah, what does health look like for us in alignment with our mission?

Kacie:

That's too powerful yeah.

Jenni Catron:

Yeah, that's really good. Okay, so I have had an opportunity to have a little sneak peek at the talk that you guys are doing for culture conference, and so I'm going to tease it out a little bit, just because I think you guys shared some really just helpful things that everybody can go and watch this Thursday and like really dig into. But you talk about tying as our most valuable resource, and so I love for you to kind of unpack that a little bit and how you guys are thinking about that related to equip healthy churches, healthy leaders. So tell me a little bit more about that.

Kacie:

Yeah, I can't believe that culture is this Thursday.

Jenni Catron:

I know it's like it's time.

Kacie:

That means that it's August and that's banana. I don't know how it's the month of August because we don't have time, and then it's like here we are, there we go, so this is a timely talk. No pun intended, I know Scott is very humble, but I am also a really big fan of giving credit where credit is due. The bones of this talk came from one of our peers and an exercise that is so simple that it's silly, but it's something that I had never really thought about in such simple terms, and it is really three slash, three and a half to four things. We're going to count it, but eliminate, delegate, automate so that you can invest.

Kacie:

And this is like all I could picture when I first heard about this was like the world's biggest post-it notes and then just my room, surrounded by literally documenting what is on my plate. Like my plate. What am I responsible for day in and day out? And for me, that was way more than just what are my job duties. It's what are my mom responsibilities? What are my family member responsibilities? What are my community responsibilities? What are my the list goes on right. What is everything that I feel responsible for and what do I need to eliminate? First and foremost, what can I put on a post-it and go? Not my job anymore, right, right, which is very scary, and I'm not good at that.

Kacie:

I remember talking about this for the first time I was gotten. It was like I don't know how to get past the bullet point one. That's why I feel like, what can I let go of? But of course they all tie together so truly and very literally and practically making a list, writing them on post-its. If that's what you need, what can I eliminate, what can I delegate? This is a big one for me. I am really horrible about asking for help. So what is on my plate that I can't just eliminate, but who is in my circle that I can say can I either ask for your help or is this something that I can hand off to you? Obviously, that's easier said than done. Is there a training component? Is there an onboarding phase, kind of a transition or a ramp? I can't just flip the switch. But if I can't even think of gosh, I've got no one, well then, I've really isolated myself, and that's a whole different talk.

Jenni Catron:

But it's a key part of it, for sure.

Kacie:

But then automate. So there are so many tools that I can only personalize. I get in these bad habits of well, this is what I do, and I don't even realize that there might be tools at my fingertips for free to actually process these things that are weighing me down, stressing me out. I can't say no, I can't delegate them, so they stay on my lap, but they are so time consuming simply because I haven't found a tool that might do it for me. This isn't necessarily a chat, gpt commercial, but AI is a gift and a tool that church leaders, nonprofit leaders, small staff can take advantage of.

Kacie:

There are really good people who are learning this. For the ones of us who are like that's overwhelming, right, yeah, there are tools and people that say can you show this to me? Yeah, so feel confident and safe that I can use this tool effectively serve my church really well. But we can automate a lot of the things on our plate to eliminate the whole other thing of post-it notes With all that extra time and I see that almost jokingly all that extra time, whether it's one minute or an hour, that can be reinvested either into self-learning, community building, bringing more people into my fold that I can delegate to, but if I'm upside down I you know this I can't invest. Therefore, I can't do any of the above. Yeah, so they all work together, but to give away the entire talk. But those are the four things that I'm trying to be better at myself, so this is not a do as I say and try to start somewhere.

Kacie:

Yeah, right.

Scott:

Yeah, and those.

Scott:

I think that the like, the reality is this process too, it goes far beyond just in your ministry or your church, your organization, like even as we're talking, like I need to do this personally, right, Like we were talking about health, like, if we want to keep the you know, physical health analogy going, like you could do this with that.

Scott:

And I think, though, one of the one of the things that I find really challenging and just like a warning for leaders when you go to do this, I think those first two eliminate and delegate. I often don't realize how much I get in my own way when it comes to doing those things, and it's actually that I find, well, I think this has to happen because, in my mind, this is so important and so we can't eliminate this, and well, I'm the one that does this thing, and so if I don't do it now, like what does that mean for me and my status, all of that stuff? And then even delegate I just recently delegated a lot of a certain type of work to somebody else and like, could feel these things of, well, is it going to be done the right way or is it like? You know what I mean, and what's been interesting is there's been some things that it's done different than I would have done it, and there's some things that are a lot better than I would have done it.

Scott:

You know, but it's often me that gets in the way of actually taking those steps, and so it's something that I find it's helpful to have the reminder of remember to get out of your own way for some of these things.

Jenni Catron:

Yes yes, yes, yes, yeah. Oh, I resonate so much with that because I feel like we go through cycles of this too. I think, like you know, different seasons of leadership require another look at this. I think just good, healthy growth requires hey, this is just good recurring practice to go okay, what do I need to eliminate? Because things just, you know, they just pile on, like you know, just stuff, and all of a sudden you're going why am I doing this? Or, kind of to your point, scott, like occasionally I often bring my team into this to say, okay, what do I need to stop doing? Like you know, because, again, I might feel sometimes I'll just feel like this weird sense of responsibility. Well, because I've been doing this for so long, like people are counting on me. Well, how many people Are five people like, like, still accessing that resource, or you know, and they're the ones that will bring perspective and go. Actually, jen, I think it'll be okay if we let that go. Like I'll have this like really like kind of twisted sense of responsibility of I can't stop it because I committed to it, you know, yeah, and so I think there's just having healthy, like a healthy look at what we're doing and what's effective now, like what's really helping us achieve, whether it's personal goals, organizational goals, et cetera.

Jenni Catron:

But the delegate piece, like that, that trips us up a lot because a lot of listeners, especially those in church, work, we're thinking but I don't have a staff team. You know, it's kind of I'm the one woman or one man show in my department and you know, and you will have volunteers likely which I would encourage, and so, while it might be, I can't delegate this whole block of work, but I can delegate elements of it to multiple people. And forcing yourself to think about it a little differently and thinking about gosh is my greatest responsibility continuing to increase my capacity and to develop the people around me. And I think when we take a little bit of a, we shift our perspective in that it's not all up to me, it's really about me helping invite other people into the work we're doing, especially in the local church. You know we talk scripture talks about equipping the saints for the work of the ministry that you know we don't have to do and control it all. We really can and should invite others into it with us. So sometimes that active delegation is really an invitation to bring people into the journey into the ministry, work with us in some way, but that takes a lot of like just good self-awareness and then good processing to think through that.

Jenni Catron:

So, and then I love the automate piece because, Kacie, I'm with you, I'm guilty of I just have done it this way and that's the way I know how to do it and to learn a new technology piece that would really make it exponentially faster.

Jenni Catron:

Half the time I don't know if they even exist, and so it's like I need people who are early adopters into new resources and tools and technology to be in my world saying, jen, why are you still doing that? You know that with a click of a button or we recently did this in the podcast that all of our show notes are AI generated. You know, like because I don't need somebody spending a couple hours a week when they could be helping us develop other content and things that you know an app can't do. But like there's a little tool in our software that we use for the podcast. That's like boom, you know we just do a quick check and make sure all the information is accurate. You know, and it's like, oh my gosh, that just saved us hours of time, but I'm terrible at actually finding those tools.

Kacie:

Well, I am too, but you know we love helping small staffs realize there is so much that you can do. So some of that fear too, not for everyone, but I think some people go. Well, if I automate that, did I just work myself out of a job? That's an important sense of importance that we have. So there's kind of three questions that you said and I don't know if you realize you said all of them. But why am I doing this, why am I still doing this and why am I still doing this this way? That's kind of this really natural progression.

Kacie:

Yeah, that when you, you know quote unquote work yourself out of a job, what other things could you be investing in that are still within your job? You just gave yourself more of your capacity to do more, not to do less, to do less of something that is holding you back, that's right. So why am I still doing this this way? There's still plenty of work, don't worry about that. That's right. There is plenty of work. But can we do it in a different and more efficient way? So I think we run up into that pretty frequently, working directly with church staff members. If I give that away, then am I still important. I love that you talked about looking within your and it's not just for churches, but I see this in nonprofits too, especially smaller ones. There are probably and I say probably there is, there absolutely is I'm telling you there absolutely is and are high capacity volunteers who would love to come do some of the work, but you haven't invited them in.

Jenni Catron:

You haven't asked them.

Kacie:

Would you come in on a Tuesday and like fold envelopes Like you're not even asking? So you're doing all this menial stuff that unfortunately AI can't do that yet, or maybe I'm sure it can. But whatever task that you're doing, that would perfectly satisfy and make someone else feel very much a part of that. But thinking beyond your staff is really really important. But opening the invitation.

Jenni Catron:

Yeah, that's really good.

Scott:

And I think, too, there was a phrase that I've heard a few different times, that's just don't say no for people and I do that all the time. They're busy, they got a lot going on, they got so many other responsibilities. They're already doing this. Like, if you create now, you have to create an environment where it's okay to say no, certainly, and sometimes giving those people permission to say no, but don't say no, because sometimes you hit upon things you're like I don't even know, you're passionate about this, you know, but, but we never get there If I don't give you the opportunity to step into that.

Jenni Catron:

That's right, that's right.

Jenni Catron:

And being able to share that in a way that is like vision casting, because sometimes you'll feel like, oh, because I need to delegate it, it's less important, or in which is not the case. It's just that I need to be giving my time and energy here. This is my highest and best contribution and here's something that I need to delegate, but it's still critical to the work we're doing, and so making sure that, even as we invite people into that, that we're we're really vision casting for the purpose and the significance of it, even though it's something that is, even though it's something that I need to delegate or should be delegating, doesn't mean that it's not important, and I think sometimes we might like subconsciously diminish it when we need to give it away, when, in fact, we should really elevate it, because it's again inviting somebody else to be a part and contribute in a meaningful way.

Kacie:

Well, it may not be menial tasks to like I said. I'm stuffing as a menial task that you may think is below someone, but you could also be leveraging extremely high level professional services through volunteers who would love to donate their time, or an attorney in your church who says hey, I do 10% pro bono and I would love to do that here. There's, that's right and it doesn't have to be the, you know the simple stuff that are a little bit more task oriented.

Kacie:

It could be some high capacity stuff that could be delegated to volunteers as well.

Jenni Catron:

Yeah, that's super good. You guys are connecting with thousands of leaders through ministry brands and I'm curious, like what are some of the trends that you're seeing church leaders face? Like what's what's kind of happening in the broader church environment that you guys are noticing?

Scott:

I think one of them is just the, the increased load on church leaders. That's and that's both things to do, but also, I think, just the emotional and just the weight of the work is really increasing and has increased, and so, as the polarization in our country is increased, as the just the tension and the level of anxiety and fear as that is increased, that typically then will eventually find its way into you know, a pastor's office or church leader, or whether you're working with your volunteers or whatever it is, and so we've certainly seen that increase. And then then the things to do. I mean there's a whole lot of, you know, we've talked with a few different, you know people who work in church staffing and help find roles and leaders for people. There's there's a whole lot of people who left ministry because the job really changed, you know, with 2020 and everything, and now, all of a sudden, there's two to three times the work that I'm doing because ministry has changed, and so a lot of people are feeling that, right, there's a there's a lot to do, there's a lot of tools that I have to use. Now, there's a lot of tasks that I have to do, and so just like kind of the workload has increased.

Scott:

And then I mean Casey can speak into some of this and some of she's saying it all, but the last thing I would say, I think, is just a continuing sort of exploration, should we say, on how to live in this digital world that we find ourselves in and how to do ministry and I'm not just talking about social media, that's a part of the thing but how do you communicate? Well, what do you do with channels that you own and you don't own? How do you embrace AI or don't embrace AI, like all of that? Just sort of trying to navigate all of that, I think, is something that's big you know that's on the plate as well for church leaders right now.

Kacie:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think he said really well. It's like how to compete and that's such a weird word, but like churches are competing against the noise of the world and pastors don't wake up every day going man, what, what new software can I learn? Or how much time can I delegate to being by myself and behind my computer. I mean, they wake up with their hearts bleeding for their communities but are so overwhelmed with how do I do that? And if I can somehow find a way to keep my doors open, am I prepared for the floodgates of needs that are going to come in? And then kind of to the burnout part that Scott mentioned what are my tools? When I need restoration, when I need a mental health day, who do I have to turn to? Right, and it can be a very isolating existence, yep, so yeah. So you asked him. You asked a tough question. We gave you a whole bunch of like really downer answers.

Jenni Catron:

But I mean but I bet most of the leaders listening can resonate with that, because it does it feels particularly overwhelming right now because there's just so much coming at. Leaders in general, but particularly church leaders, are kind of caught in the crossfire of all of this broader cultural pressure and that's a lot to navigate, like we're having to kind of be experts or have at least a good understanding of a lot of things that are beyond the scope of what I thought I was going to do when I started out in ministry.

Kacie:

You know, and I don't think church leaders are unique from normal individuals who suffer from comparison syndrome on social media. So you've got a bunch of great, great ministers who happen to have a huge following and, just like any other influencer, you've got 99% of church leaders who are seeing that flood their newsfeed and, go man, I am nowhere near that. I could never be. How could I possibly? And I think I don't mean to get too spiritual, but I think that is a lie of the enemy to discourage people who aren't the you know the quote unquote mega pastor, but are doing amazing work in small communities and are doing it without that huge platform. Yeah, they can't help but see that.

Kacie:

So I think there's a lot of like competitive things in our own minds too. The pastors and organizational leaders aren't immune to that's true. Why don't I have a billion followers? Why don't I? Why didn't my thing go viral? Why didn't? Why didn't Jenny invite me on her podcast? So just realizing, I think, that self-awareness of man I love Scott always in our podcast by asking what is one thing that you would like to share with our audience of church leaders, and so many people have said, pastor, you are doing good work, something like that. Like you're just that encouragement. You showed up today and like keep trucking, I see you, I hear you, you're doing good. There's some hope in there, like kind of kind of dig for it.

Jenni Catron:

Yeah, yeah, that's so true, so true. Well, you guys, I am super grateful that you know just your heart as an organization in helping serve leaders, and one of the you guys have a platform called the Healthy Church Hub. Like I'd love for you to tell us a little more about that, or maybe how leaders can connect with that more, because, again, you guys are doing such a good job of helping resource church leaders and support them. So just a little about that.

Kacie:

Yeah, in short, we're a software provider. I mean, at the end of the day, ministry brands provide software for churches everything from websites, live streaming, database, giving background checks, like all these really not necessarily fun things, but the backend systems. So we have a ton of data and resources that, quite honestly, was spread out in all these different places and we went man, what if there was one place? So that's what we tried to do was not only to simplify our tools, but for every single church that we serve, we could point them to one place. So not only here's how to do, you know, here's how to change your password, but also here's every blog, here's every newsletter, here's every podcast recording, not just our own but other industry, church leaders, nonprofit leaders. Here's their voice.

Kacie:

Not that we could ever be Google, but a somewhat of an attempt at a one-stop shop to find not just helpful resources but also some thought leadership. We serve a lot of churches and we have a very big staff too, so all of them kind of have their random bookmarks of oh, I send them to this for this and this for that and try to just simplify. We try to actually automate our own processes. Heaven forbid, follow our own good advice. If only there was a way to make this easier. So the Healthy Church Hub is so a funnel for here's all this great stuff. Search it, find partners, find resources. Hopefully this saves you a bunch of just searching. That's great, and there's content we can add from partners like you. We talked about the Unstuck Group man. What good stuff is out there that we can put on this place to help church and nonprofit leaders? That's great. That is really not hard.

Jenni Catron:

That's awesome, Okay. So how can people check that out? Learn more about ministry brands? How can we connect more with you guys?

Scott:

Yeah, I think the best way to check out the Healthy Church Hub ministrybrands. com, and if you want the URL to go right to the Healthy Church Hub, it's ministrybrands. com /healthy-church-hub. So sometimes I don't feel like typing in the URL that long, and you may not either, so I'm sure we'll put a link in the show notes.

Jenni Catron:

We will, yeah, we for sure will.

Scott:

Yeah, that would be the best place certainly, to check out that. And then you know we love having conversations as well. You know, jenny, you mentioned being on there, but Church Leadership Lab is our podcast and that's kind of a part of the hub. But that's one of the ways that we kind of continue to bring resources to the many Church leaders and pastors that we get to serve. That's awesome.

Jenni Catron:

Thank you guys so much for your hearts, for serving ministry leaders specifically and just looking for ways to equip them, because that is such a huge gift. So thanks for joining me today, thanks for all the work that you're doing and I can't wait for Culture Conference. So, friends, if you're not registered cultureconferenceorg Coming up this Thursday and you'll get to hear from Scott and Casey as well. So, scott, casey, thank you so much for being with us today and we'll have you back soon.

Scott:

Thank you Thanks, Jenni.

Jenni Catron:

All right, friends, right? So much good stuff from our conversation and really just helpful ways to think about. What does health look like and how do we evaluate our health in our organization? How do we even define health in our organization? I hope that sparked some curiosity for you, got you thinking a little differently about how you want to approach health as a team and as an organization. So again, be sure to go to ministrybrands. com to check out the work that they do and don't forget, go to cultureconference. org to get registered now to join us this coming Thursday. All right, friends, thank you so much for being a part of this week's episode. Thank you for just learning and growing together, like being committed to your growth as a leader, being committed to the health of your team. I know that it's going to make an impact and I know it matters significantly. So let us know how we can best serve you. Email me at podcast at get4sight. com. That's G-E-T, the number four, s-i-g-h-t, and until next time, keep leading well.