Lead Culture with Jenni Catron
Navigating the complexities of leadership can be daunting and overwhelming. With Jenni Catron and her guests as your trusted and experienced guides, your leadership journey can become less overwhelming and more fulfilling. Jenni and the 4Sight team want to help you become a healthy leader who leads a thriving organization. Listen to discover the tools and wisdom you need to gain the 4Sight for success!
Lead Culture with Jenni Catron
224 | Creating a Thriving Workplace: Insights and Strategies from Leadership Coach, Joe Mull
What if your workplace was a destination your employees couldn't wait to arrive at every day? You may think it's a far-fetched idea, but Joe Mull, begs to differ. He's an author, leadership coach, and a passionate advocate for turning workplaces into environments where employees don't just survive but thrive. Joe has a wealth of experience and insights to share, from his background in performing arts and student affairs, to leading learning development for one of the largest healthcare systems in the US. This episode is packed with engaging conversations about upgrading the employee experience, the competitive edge of a four-day work week, and the psychology behind job satisfaction.
Ever wondered why some employees stick around while others are quick to exit? Our second segment is dedicated to deciphering just that. We delve into Joe's research-backed findings on retention and turnover, emphasizing the three key areas employers need to win in: ideal job, meaningful work, and a great boss. But that's not all. In the age of remote and hybrid working, the role of managers and leaders is evolving. We discuss how to lead effectively from afar and foster a healthy workplace culture that nurtures trust and loyalty. Joe also introduces his book, Employalty: How to Ignite Commitment and Keep Top Talent in the New Age of Work, championing a humane approach to the employee experience. If you're searching for fresh perspectives and practical strategies to level up your leadership game, this episode is a must-listen.
About Joe
Known as a dynamic, engaging speaker, Joe Mull teaches leaders and business owners how to be better bosses and make work “work for all”. He is the author of three books: Cure for the Common Leader, No More Team Drama, and his latest, Employalty: How to Ignite Commitment and Keep Top Talent in the New Age of Work. He is founder of the BossBetter Leadership Academy and the host of the globally popular Boss Better Now podcast, ranked in the Top 100 of all management podcasts (Apple).
As a thought leader and subject matter expert, Joe brings decades of real-world experience to his writing and speaking. He previously served as head of Learning & Development for Physician Services at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center (UPMC), where he directed learning strategy and implementation for one of the largest physician groups in the U.S. Prior to his years of service in healthcare, he spent a decade working in leadership and program development roles in student affairs in higher education.
Joe holds the coveted Certified Speaking Professional™ (CSP®) designation from the National Speakers Association (NSA). Held by fewer than 20% of professional speakers worldwide, the CSP is the speaking profession’s international measure of speaking exce
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Hey friends, I'm your host, Jenny Catron, and welcome to the Lead Culture Podcast, part of the Art of Leadership Network. Now, my goal here is to coach you to lead yourself well so you can lead others better. My team and I at the 4Sight Group are committed to building confident leaders, extraordinary teams and thriving cultures. Each week, we'll take a deep dive into a leadership or culture topic that will give you the tools you need to lead with clarity and confidence and build a thriving team. Today on the podcast, my guest is Joe Mull.
Speaker 2:Known as a dynamic, engaging speaker, Joe Mull teaches leaders and business owners how to be better bosses and make work work for all. He's the author of three books Cure for the Common Leader, No More Team Drama and his latest book, Employalty: How to Ignite Commitment and Keep Top Talent in the New Age of Work. He's the founder of Boss Better Leadership Academy and the host of the globally popular Boss Better Now podcast, which is ranked in the top 100 of all management podcasts. As a thought leader and subject matter expert, Joe brings decades of real world experience to his writing and speaking. He previously served as head of learning and development for physician services at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, where he directed learning strategy and implementation for one of the largest physician groups in the US. Prior to his years of service in healthcare, he spent a decade working in leadership and program development roles in student affairs and higher education.
Speaker 2:Joe is a sought after speaker. He is a phenomenal writer and today we have a fantastic conversation around the world of work and you're going to hear from Joe sharing how to be a destination workplace. I love so much his thoughts on just the reality of the workplace dynamic that we're all navigating and he says stop blaming people and start fixing work. So we dig into that. Today I asked him about that statement in particular. We talked about how to be that destination workplace. He shares three things we need to provide to be the upgrade employees are looking for. And then, you guys, we dig into the four day work week and why it's a competitive advantage. So here's my conversation with Joe Moll. Joe, thanks so much for joining me today. Just in our pre conversation free, free podcast conversation I was like, oh, we're going to. This is going to be fun, I'm looking forward to this.
Speaker 1:Jenni, I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited for this conversation. Just like you said, I think the work that we each do is going to make this a fun one.
Speaker 2:You know, one of the things I have loved about podcasting is I end up getting connected to people like yourself who are doing similar work. You know different spheres of influence typically and I'm like, oh, there's other people who get this, there's other people who value this at the level that you know, that I do, and are making huge impacts in your corners of the world, and so thanks for joining us. I'd love for you to tell everybody about your background and your passion for employee experience and just kind of give us, give us, the backstory a bit so that we can catch up and really dig into the conversation today.
Speaker 1:Oh sure, and thank you for that.
Speaker 1:You know, when people ask me what I do, the shortest, best answer I've come up with is I teach leaders how to be better bosses and how to create the conditions at work for people to thrive.
Speaker 1:And I spent a number of years as the head of learning and development for physician services at one of the largest healthcare systems here on the East Coast, and then I went out on my own about 10 years ago and created essentially a boutique training firm where I was doing that kind of work, predominantly in healthcare at first, because that's my background, but then a few years ago we opened up our borders and and so I really I speak and write about commitment in the workplace, and that's why these conversations are so fun, because I get to nerd out with other people who love that stuff and and and play around in the psychology of what makes people love a job, what makes people come to work and give it all they've got, what are the habits and routines and the interactions that we need to have as leaders to make that possible for people. So most of my work is these days is is as a keynote speaker and as a trainer and consultant for organizations.
Speaker 2:I love that. Where did that interest emerge for you? I don't you know. Maybe maybe you always knew this is what I want to do, but for me it was. I was doing a different career and all of a sudden I discovered, oh, I actually love the leadership, the people development, the bringing a team together and aligning them to achieve a mission and, you know, and unleashing them to do that in a way that energizes them. And so I'd be curious for you did you kind of stumble into that being a passion point for you, or did you know that pretty early on?
Speaker 1:You know it's funny. I had these two very disparate career paths that came together, I think, to make me good at what I'm doing, what I do now. So I originally went to undergrad to get a degree in the performing arts. I have actually a bachelor's degree in music and theater because I wanted to be on Broadway.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But then, coming out of college, I got so involved in student affairs and working around leadership on campus that I ended up having a 10-year career in student affairs and higher education and then I moved into the healthcare world. But for almost 30 years now, everything I've ever done has been about being in front of a room of people and creating programming that they find compelling, and as I've done so many different things around that, especially in the student affairs space, I sort of fell in love with that psychology piece of how do you translate really complex ideas around people into simple ideas that they can use every day.
Speaker 1:And that student affairs career seemed to prepare me really well, because when I moved over and joined the HR team at a large healthcare system it was sort of like well, what do you mean? We're not talking with leaders about what people's needs and wants and desires are at work and how we can give that to them and the results that we can produce on our teams if we do it well. And so I married together that sort of interest in the psychology of it with that performance aspect and ended up in the training space.
Speaker 2:Yeah, love that so much. It's so fascinating to me how we get there and if I had it to do over again, I would just go back and take everything in psychology I could, just because you know, just the understanding of how people work, how they think, like that's just become such a passion point for me and helping motivate and engage people. So so, yeah, I was just curious. I was like, oh, I want to hear the back story there of how you got to here. Now I've heard you say so. I can't wait until I get the opportunity to see you speak in person, because I've watched some of your speaking online and you are such a fantastic speaker. But one of the talks I heard you say stop blaming people and start fixing work and that kind of stopped me on my track. So I was like I need you to tell us more about that thought.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how many times have you heard someone say no one wants to work anymore? How many? Times have you heard someone say oh, these kids, today, they're, they're entitled, right it's a work ethic. The problem with people now is work ethic and you know I hate I tell audiences this all the time that you know I hate to break it to you, but every complaint you have about the younger people coming in behind you are the same complaints people had about you.
Speaker 2:About you.
Speaker 1:You got here right. It's youth right, but that's so good.
Speaker 2:It's so true.
Speaker 1:I maybe one of the videos you saw.
Speaker 1:I was sharing a story about a local business owner in my community who is constantly posting on Facebook that he has open positions for the businesses that he owns, and he always does it the same way.
Speaker 1:He says need to find good people, no one wants to work. And then he lists the pay and the hours Uh-huh, and they're not great. And it's been a really interesting thing to watch members of the community come back and comment and say no, no, no time out, hold on, it's not that nobody wants to work, it's that nobody wants to work for you and that's not the same thing and we really want this to be the story. When we have a hard time filling positions, we want to say that it's people and we want to say that it's work ethic. But this idea of no one wants to work is actually one of the most biased, persistent generational tropes in human history. In the research that we were doing for this new book that has come out, we actually found a professor in Canada who has studied this trope this trope no one wants to work and has found instances of it showing up in North American newspapers every year, going back 120 years. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a mindset shift that needs to take place and it really comes down to there is no staffing shortage, there's a great job shortage. And when you do that, when you shift that mindset away from blaming people, you turn the mirror inward and you actually start fixing the problems that your organization has as an employer or that maybe you perpetuate as a leader that pushes people out of an organization.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's such a I mean I love just kind of a wake up call to us there, because it's so easy to point the finger at well, this generation just doesn't, or whatever the excuse is, and it's fascinating to hear okay, that's going back over 100 years, Like we've been saying this about the incoming generation. Every generation is saying that about the one coming up behind them, and but I think the perspective as a leader to be willing to say, okay, what might we need to change, what might be not quite right in our leadership or in our culture as an organization that is not actually retaining great folks or attracting great folks, and you know, and the it doesn't take long to do the numbers and realize that you know a little better, pay a lot more attention to your culture and the environment you're creating in the workplace, and even that a little bit more expense, there is a lot of savings over the turnover. That the cost of turnover Fair enough, no, question?
Speaker 1:Absolutely. You know we we don't see the invisible costs of turnover on a balance sheet right.
Speaker 2:We all.
Speaker 1:We've all heard that it costs between one half and two times the cost of someone's salary to replace them. We also don't see the the lowering of the morale and the increase in burnout. There you go. The other people who are absorbing that work are taking on when we can't fill those positions. But you remember, you mentioned numbers, Jenni, and that's the other part of this argument, that or this moment that we're in, that I think people aren't necessarily plugged into when they say no one wants to work or we can't find good people. There are.
Speaker 1:We continue to add jobs to our economy at a breakneck pace and we know that, for example, here in the United States, unemployment is near record lows. There have only been three months in the last 50 years where it's lower than it is right now. There is not an invisible mass of people who have decided to stop working, who are sitting this one out right. There just simply aren't enough people to fill all the jobs that we've added to our economy. So when you say no one wants to work, it really is no, it's that they don't want to work for you. And so we have these two competing identities right now in the workplace. We have departure organizations and destination workplaces.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, and when we see so much, movement taking place across the labor market, we can start to carve out what the identities of each one of those are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's big right there. Departure organizations or destination workplaces, that's what you said, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So we almost need to evaluate which one of those are we.
Speaker 1:Right, absolutely, or we need to choose that identity. So here's what's actually happening in the labor market. When we see this right now, we've been hearing terms like the great resignation for a couple of years now. When you ask people when did that start, this idea that everybody's quitting? That actually started in 2010 here in the United States. We think it has started since COVID, right. But something interesting happened after the great recession in 2008. In 2009, 2 million more people voluntarily left their positions than the year before. Then it happened again in 2010, and then it happened again in 2011. You can look at the jobs data from the US government. Every year since 2010, the number of people who voluntarily left their jobs has increased. It was 28 million in 2010. It was 50 million last year. But here's the other crazy part of this During that exact same time period, there was 50 percent more hiring than there was quitting. With that data, what's clear is that people aren't actually quitting this idea of the great resignation. That's only half the story.
Speaker 1:People are switching. That's yeah. More specifically, they're upgrading. When you ask people why are you changing jobs, what you hear are a whole host of answers I need better pay, I need a better schedule. I need a better boss, a less toxic workplace, more fulfilling work. I want a better commute. I want more opportunity. We can rattle off a dozen answers, but they all roll up to a single bigger idea, which is really about quality of life. Yeah, there's a massive recalibration taking place right now around how work fits into people's lives. It's resulting in people going into the labor market and looking for an upgrade. We have to, if we're an employer, choose an identity. Are we going to be the upgrade? If so, that's what makes us a destination workplace. We have to engineer the conditions that provide the quality of life that people are looking for.
Speaker 2:That is so helpful. How do you coach leaders that say, okay, yes, we definitely want to be the upgrade, but where do I even start?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we analyze more than 200 research studies and articles on why people quit a job or take a new job or decide to stay in an organization. This really came out of the work that I was doing around. Where does commitment come from in the workplace? What leads people to stay? Trying to answer that question really took us on this remarkable journey that resulted in this new book. I can tell you with conviction that you become a destination workplace when you win in three specific areas of the employee experience. We call them ideal job, meaningful work and great boss. We know and this is my one sentence answer If your listeners only remember one sentence from this conversation today, at least on my side of it, I hope the sentences commitment and retention appear when employees are in their ideal job doing meaningful work for a great boss, that's so great there are dimensions to this, though, and you know that right, you've been doing this work for a long time.
Speaker 1:The dimensions to ideal job are about compensation, workload and flexibility. If you get my money right, if my workload is right and I have some flexibility around when, where and how I work, that is my ideal job. It fits into my life like a puzzle piece, snapping into place For meaningful work. It's purpose, strengths and belonging. I believe my work matters. It aligns with my gifts and I'm a part of a team where I'm accepted and celebrated. My work is meaningful and I want to do it. That's good. Then that great boss factor has three dimensions as well. We know there are a lot of things you have to get right to be considered a great boss. We think the three most important are trust, coaching and advocacy.
Speaker 1:If my boss grants and earns trust. If they coach me and they advocate for me, that person is filling that role. I've got a great boss. We put all three of those things together. We say if you're providing someone their ideal job, doing meaningful work for a great boss, you are a destination workplace for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow, that's powerful. I bet everybody listening going okay, that makes sense, that makes sense. We hear a lot of language about the workplaces changed so much in the last few years. Certainly, the expectations around more flexibility, the hybrid work and the conversations around that are bananas right now, because you've got people trying to pull everybody back in. What are you noticing about that? What if that is true? What if that is overdramatized? What do you see from your perspective?
Speaker 1:This goes right to that quality of life piece. Yes, I remember the CEO of Microsoft said in 2020, boy, we just experienced two years of digital transformation in two months. It's so true because we had people who had to figure out how to do their jobs from home in remote work. We all learned Zoom pretty quick, didn't we? The reality is, for a lot of folks, they have proven that they can do great work in a remote environment. Their quality of life as a result for so many folks has improved.
Speaker 1:We see people who are working from home now talk about the money. They're saving the time. They're saving the wear and tear on their car. I'm not buying unhealthy food at all the restaurants near the office. I'm cooking healthier food for myself at home. I'm able to be in the driveway when my kids get off the bus, and I was never able to do that before. The friction around return to work is about lowering people's quality of life without having a conversation with them about it and ignoring that. That's what we're doing. There you go. I was just engaged in an online conversation on LinkedIn about this the other day of folks who were talking about my company is mandating that I'm coming back to the office. They're adding a two-hour commute, they're adding an extra expense to my life that I've not had for three years. I'm going to spend more money on parking, on gas, on food. And what people fail to recognize is that anytime you lower your employment requirements, lower someone's quality of life, you're creating a flight risk.
Speaker 2:That's really good. That's really good. Yeah, you're creating a flight risk when you lower their quality of life. So how do you coach the leader who's like but gosh, I feel like, because we're not with each other, like and feel like our culture is suffering, I feel like we're not having the connectivity or the opportunities for innovation and so some of that draw that leaders feel to get everybody back together. How do you manage that tension? What's your, what's your recommendation there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm very much a centrist on the whole work from home conversation. I'm not one of these folks who insists that every job can be done from home and there's never a reason to get together.
Speaker 1:To your point. There are a lot of things or a lot of benefits that employers have every right to ask for. By asking people to gather right, we get creativity, we get innovation, we get camaraderie and connection and relationships, and all of these influence the quality of our work product and our services delivery. What tends to be lacking and what I would coach leaders to think about is are you inviting your employees to be a part of the conversation, to shape your return to office or your work from home policies In the week that we're recording this?
Speaker 1:The Smuckers Company out of Ohio has been all over the news this week because they have created a return to work set up that their employees actually like, and it's because they co-created it with them. They created a model where they identified 22 weeks out of the year that they called core weeks, and then they asked their employees to be on site for, I believe, half of them, and you get to choose which of the 11 of the 22 core weeks, or maybe it's most of them. I don't know exactly what it is, but the point is that they co-created it and so there was a meeting in the middle right. It is absolutely within the right of an employer to say you know we're going to need you on site from time to time. But it's also realistic for employees to say look, we've proven we can do this now. Please don't take some things away that we have come to really experience this quality of life measures.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's so good. I was that. That's kind of where my mind was going when you started talking about that. I was like I think it has to do with hey, let's have the conversation together, so we're getting the perspective of the employee. Like you talked about the flight risk thing, if we're lowering their quality of life and we're not even thinking about that, it's not on our radar right, like we're you know, and so if we're in the conversation with them, we've got more perspective on that. So that's a fascinating example.
Speaker 2:I'm curious about the great boss. Part of the equation that you shared and in one of the maybe concerns that I've heard over the last couple of years especially with hybrid work, more remote work is it has, in my opinion, it's put more pressure on managers to lead better, and I think sometimes we were lazy leaders because people were just in proximity to us and so now it's requiring more of us. So I think the easy way sometimes is just well, let's just get everybody back here, because then at least they're here and they're in front of me and I know what they're doing and you know it kind of makes it easier for me as their manager. So is that what you're seeing is like is my perception of that right, and what do we need to do to help equip managers to lead remote workers better?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes and yes. So I think what you just described is very common, even if some managers don't give voice to it. I think both the work from home debate and the what should I be doing as a mid level or frontline leader if I'm managing remote workers, our actions can end up being rooted in fear and mistrust. Right.
Speaker 1:We sometimes have the belief that if people aren't monitored, if we don't know what they're doing and when they're doing it, that they're going to be doing laundry and watching Netflix.
Speaker 1:And so we end up imposing all of these systems and processes and monitoring software on a largely ethical group of people out of fear of the rare bad Apple, and it sends a really powerful message to our teams, which is that we don't trust you, right, which lowers morale and increases disengagement.
Speaker 1:And so what we're seeing, and what's really interesting, is that Gallup, for example, has been doing research on remote work before any of us knew what Zoom was, and have consistently found that remote workers can actually have higher levels of engagement than on-site workers, as long as they get ongoing feedback from their direct supervisor.
Speaker 1:And so the advice that I would give to managers who are trying to lead effectively in a remote environment is we need to think differently about how people's performance is going to be measured, right, it used to be in routines and projects and maybe benchmarks along certain project lines, but we actually need to think of it more in terms of outputs, and we need to be willing to trust people to get to their work product in their own way, and if they're struggling to do that effectively, we can coach them. But we need leaders and their direct reports to actually engage in ongoing conversations to define what the output should be, to determine how performance is going to be measured in an environment where we don't necessarily see each other all the time or only have a certain number of touch points.
Speaker 2:That's really good, super helpful. I just think it's forcing us, as leaders, to think differently, to think better about OK, how do we do this? In this context, we just you know, for most of us that have a few years of experience under our belt, frankly, I have the benefit of when I started Foresight it was seven years ago and so we started fully remote work before everybody was forced to go to remote work, so I had to kind of figure it out a little bit ahead, but it challenged my just normal behaviors as a leader. I had to think differently about how do I lead a team that's fully remote? How do I and here we are a company that focuses on creating healthy culture, and I'm like how, how do I create healthy culture with a team I never see beyond a Zoom screen, and so it gave us a little bit of a leg up then when our clients were trying to navigate that through the last few years.
Speaker 2:But it does. It really challenges your skills as a leader and as a people manager, and I think that's important for us to be aware of and just be intentional about. What are those things we need to think differently about? I love how you said thinking differently about even how to measure performance. You know the metrics are a bit different, really valuable. Ok, you have a new book Employalty and making sure I get that right, because it's easy to say it wrong Employalty.
Speaker 1:You nailed it.
Speaker 2:Good job I want to hear about it. Tell us more about the book. You gave us a couple of little sneak peeks in some of the conversation so far, but tell us more about the book.
Speaker 1:So we're playing a little bit of a trick on readers, right? You hear the word employalty and you think, oh, this is going to be a book about employee loyalty. But when you get into the book, what we reveal is that the word employalty is a portmanteau of the words employer loyalty and humanity. We know that it is harder than ever before right now to find and keep devoted employees, in part because there is this sort of reckoning taking place around how work fits into our lives. But also a lot of leaders still don't know or engineer the conditions at work that lead people to want to be on a team and to give it all they've got.
Speaker 1:And so when we did all that research and we analyzed the sort of internal psychological scorecard that every employee has, what are the experiences that I need to have consistently that make me move from? I have to be here, I have to do this work to. I want to be here, I want to do this work we ended up identifying those three areas, those three big factors that I talked about ideal job, meaningful work and great boss. But even inherent in all of that is this bigger idea of a more humane employee experience. Because when you look at what's been happening in the labor market these last 15 years. We do see people who are rejecting overwork, who are rejecting burnout, who are rejecting being underpaid. They've said I can no longer interact with my employer when my employer treats me as a commodity, and so our definition of employalty is it's the commitment that employers make to a more humane employee experience, because that's what leads to commitment at work. And then the whole rest of the book is that framework that we talked about around ideal job, meaningful work and great boss.
Speaker 2:So good, so good. Okay, I have one more like little tangent. I want to go on before I wrap this up. Today, you share a lot about the four day work week and how that can give us a competitive advantage, and so I know there's curiosity around this, but there are so many folks that are like God, can we do that? How would we do that? What does that look like? So I'd love for you to just tell us a little bit of your thoughts about that. The four day work week.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure. So one of the dimensions that we write about for a more humane employee experience is about workload Right, that for years we have continued to see workloads explode and that the work of three then became the work of two, then became the work of one, and that one person is really now doing the work of three. And so, as we see employees chasing better quality of life, better work life balance, we know that four day work weeks are an evidence based way that employers could give back some time and some quality of life to employees. And, especially because we've been studying four day work weeks now for more than a decade across the globe, we have a ton of pilots and research projects around this and there's a perception that it's coming, and the truth is it's here. We actually wrote in the book about a whole host of companies in the US that have been doing four day work weeks for a while.
Speaker 1:What the misperception is is that you are cramming a bunch of work and lesser pay into that same model, but it's not necessarily true. The four day work week pilots that have shown the most success have typically averaged about 36 to 37 hours a week, and you're still getting a full time salary and benefits. It's just across four days instead of five, and what ends up happening is, first of all, the organization has to figure out how to work smarter, and so there's a sort of trimming of the fat right. Are these meetings necessary? Is this travel necessary? Are we going to take on all of these projects in Q3, or should we pare down to the two that are most important so we work smarter?
Speaker 2:than discipline. There organizationally Say that again. There's some discipline there organizationally. The organization is taking on the responsibility of get, like you said, working smarter. That's interesting. Sorry to cut you off.
Speaker 1:That's okay, but it brings a greater question too. If a really hard challenge is finding and keeping devoted employees, is that discipline a little bit of a lesser hard challenge? Because if it is, then now you've identified a tactic that makes it easier to find and keep people. But the other thing that we see happening with four-day work weeks is when you give people some time back in their lives and you ease the pressures and the burdens of them having to manage their life outside of work, they become more committed to your organization. Right when their commitment goes up, when their happiness goes up, their effort goes up. So you're super charging commitment in your workplace. When you do that, every metric that you care about goes up.
Speaker 1:One of the misperceptions about four-day work weeks is if I'm going to move to a four-day work week, does that mean I have to be open less or that we're going to serve fewer customers? None of that is true. You can operate a seven-day a week business with just staggered staffing schedules. We've seen hospitals do this for years for nurses, for example. As a tactic for the larger strategy around workload management and better quality of life, four-day work weeks are absolutely worth a look.
Speaker 2:That's fascinating. Everybody needs to go get employability. They need to go check out the book. Tell us how to connect more with you, Joe.
Speaker 1:That's so generous. Thank you. Employability is available anywhere you like to get your business books. You can get it on Amazon, you can get it at Barnes Noble. If you'd like to support your local independent bookstore, you can go to indybound. org and source the book from there. You can find me over at joemull. com.
Speaker 2:Perfect. Thank you so much for sharing with us, just investing your insight and wisdom to us as leaders today. We'll be sure to link to all of those resources in the show notes, and thanks again, joe. This was fantastic.
Speaker 1:My absolute pleasure. Thanks for having such a good conversation and being such a generous host. Thank you.
Speaker 2:All right, friends, I know that probably got your wheels turning, probably made you a little uncomfortable here and there, just of different ways that we have to think as leaders to lead in our current environment. So I would love to know what you heard, send us your feedback. You can reach out to us at GetForesight on all the social channels, at GetForesight, G-E-T, the number four, s-i-g-h-t, or you can find me at Jenni Catron, j-e-n-n-i-c-a-t-r-o-n. Be sure to check out joemull. com and all of his resources and if you liked what you heard here, if it got you thinking, share it with a friend, share it with another coworker, maybe somebody on your leadership team, maybe you're having some of these conversations and hearing Joe's perspective would be valuable to just kind of kickstart some additional conversation.
Speaker 2:I am so glad you are here and you're joining me every week to keep learning and growing and working together to figure out how do we lead culture. Well, if we can do anything for you, help you in any way, please don't hesitate to reach out at podcast, at Get4Sight. com, and if there's somebody you think I should talk to, if you know somebody who has done really good work in their culture, like they have worked hard, they have a healthy and thriving team. I wanna hear their story, so share that with me at podcast at Get4Sight. com. All right gang, thank you so much for listening today. Keep leading well and we will see you next week.