Fighting leadership burnout has become akin to searching for a lighthouse in a relentless storm. As your host, Jenni Catron, I had the privilege of sitting down with Dr. Jason Young, whose profound insights shed light on this pressing issue. Together, we navigated the murky waters of stress and exhaustion that have only intensified in the wake of a global pandemic. Dr. Young's wisdom, drawn from his book "Don't Burn Out, Burn Bright," reveals the indispensable roles self-leadership and community play in safeguarding against the perilous state of burnout. Our conversation is a compass for leaders seeking to find balance and maintain their passion amidst the chaos.
The path to recovery post-COVID-19 is not a straight line, and leaders across industries are finding that the emotional toll of the pandemic is a shared yet often silent burden. In a chapter that may resonate on a personal level, we tackle the realities of trauma, the struggle for a return to normalcy, and the quiet battles of church leaders who have given their all in these trying times. Dr. Young and I delve into the importance of connection—how seeking support can be a beacon for those feeling isolated in their professional endeavors, and how the courage to be vulnerable and reach out can make all the difference.
As we wrap up our journey through the stormy seas of leadership challenges, we offer you a message of hope. It's about embracing the light at the end of the tunnel and arming yourself with strategies to prevent burnout and sustain a fulfilling career and life. Through my own experiences and the shared knowledge of Dr. Young, we underscore the power of self-awareness, the necessity of reaching out for help, and the collective strength found in community. So, tune in and join this voyage of empowerment, understanding, and resilience. Don't forget to stay connected with our leadership conversations by subscribing to our Insights newsletter and connecting on social media.
We need your help to get the Lead Culture podcasts in front of more leaders! There are three simple things you can do that truly help us:
Fighting leadership burnout has become akin to searching for a lighthouse in a relentless storm. As your host, Jenni Catron, I had the privilege of sitting down with Dr. Jason Young, whose profound insights shed light on this pressing issue. Together, we navigated the murky waters of stress and exhaustion that have only intensified in the wake of a global pandemic. Dr. Young's wisdom, drawn from his book "Don't Burn Out, Burn Bright," reveals the indispensable roles self-leadership and community play in safeguarding against the perilous state of burnout. Our conversation is a compass for leaders seeking to find balance and maintain their passion amidst the chaos.
The path to recovery post-COVID-19 is not a straight line, and leaders across industries are finding that the emotional toll of the pandemic is a shared yet often silent burden. In a chapter that may resonate on a personal level, we tackle the realities of trauma, the struggle for a return to normalcy, and the quiet battles of church leaders who have given their all in these trying times. Dr. Young and I delve into the importance of connection—how seeking support can be a beacon for those feeling isolated in their professional endeavors, and how the courage to be vulnerable and reach out can make all the difference.
As we wrap up our journey through the stormy seas of leadership challenges, we offer you a message of hope. It's about embracing the light at the end of the tunnel and arming yourself with strategies to prevent burnout and sustain a fulfilling career and life. Through my own experiences and the shared knowledge of Dr. Young, we underscore the power of self-awareness, the necessity of reaching out for help, and the collective strength found in community. So, tune in and join this voyage of empowerment, understanding, and resilience. Don't forget to stay connected with our leadership conversations by subscribing to our Insights newsletter and connecting on social media.
We need your help to get the Lead Culture podcasts in front of more leaders! There are three simple things you can do that truly help us:
The Art of Leadership Network.
Speaker 2:Hey leaders, welcome to the Lead Culture Podcast, part of the Art of Leadership Network. I'm your host, Jenni Catron. Each week, I'll be your guide as we explore powerful insights and practical strategies to equip you with the tools you need to lead with clarity and confidence and build a thriving team. My mission is to be your trusted coach, empowering you to master the art of self-leadership so you'll learn to lead yourself well, so you can lead others better. Each week, we'll take a deep dive on a leadership or a culture topic. You'll hear stories from amazing guests and leaders like you who are committed to leading well. Let's get started on this leadership journey together.
Speaker 2:Today, I am joined by my friend, Jason Young. Jason is a best-selling author with six books to his credit. His newest book, Don't Burn Out, Burn Bright, guides leaders to prevent exhaustion and burnout, to ensure greater joy in work and life. He's an executive coach and consultant, and for over 20 years he has been on staff with several churches, including Life Church and North Point Ministries. Jason currently guides leaders and organizations to thrive by becoming the healthiest version of themselves, building engaging teams and crafting meaningful guest experiences. Some of his clients include Chick-fil-A, Bayside Church, Fedex Ground, Gorilla Glue, Delta Airlines, Christ Fellowship and so many other respected churches and companies. Guys, Jason is just one of those leaders that I love connecting with and learning from.
Speaker 2:Today, we talk about this really important topic of burnout. In our conversation, you're going to learn how trauma has impacted you as a leader, especially in the last few years. You'll learn the relationship between stress, exhaustion and burnout. How to build your table of influence, and why you can't get out of burnout alone. Friends, here is my conversation with Dr. Jason Young. Jason, you're one of the few returning guests to the podcast. Welcome back.
Speaker 1:Thank you for letting me. You must be desperate for people, and here I am. Thanks for letting me be here. No, it really is a joy to be here, thank you.
Speaker 2:No, actually one of my running jokes about the podcast is that I schedule people that I want to catch up with because we managed to actually catch up. You and I will do the quick emails back and forth, maybe a text here or there. We've known each other for so many years. But if I schedule you for the podcast, we actually catch up more deliberately. So it's like we get a little chance to catch up on each other's world. But I'm excited to talk today because you've written on a really important topic, the topic of burnout.
Speaker 2:And even as we turn the corner into the new year, I'm hearing so many leaders. Actually heard from a ton of people they were kind of resistant to the new year. Like usually you turn the calendar into the new year with all this excitement and energy and like let's go conquer the world. And I was hearing more from leaders not everybody, but from a good bunch of leaders that are just kind of like, oh, just that idea of the energy to engage a new year, like I felt it myself even a little bit of. I was like can I just have a few more days of the last year, a few more days to reflect and to think and not have to go racing into a new year. And so I'm very curious because I think this topic of burnout is you know it's not necessarily a new one, but I would be really curious to hear from you what are you noticing that's kind of elevating this topic right now, like what kind of got your attention for you and Jonathan to say we got to write a book on this?
Speaker 1:Well, probably two or three is one what you did say. We started noticing it more and more. So you're right, it's not me right. It's been around, for you know, I don't want to say forever, but it's been around for a long time. And I think what really maybe put it on the radar more than anything is like COVID accelerated it Sure, oh, it was present, covid accelerated it.
Speaker 1:And then we're post COVID, whatever all of that language means, and I think it's like, well, we just go about our normal work, and the problem is we've been impacted by something that we just went through, that we can't just flip a switch and everything is okay, Sure. And so I think, really, what that period of time created for many leaders was trauma. And I think, now that we're on the backside of it, we expect a lot of our leaders and we actually leaders expected for themselves to flip this switch of experience, experiencing trauma on some level, and they just to go about work as normal. And the problem is that isn't how it works from a healthy perspective. And so, seeing it among friends, colleagues, pastors, not just pastors, see, here's the interesting thing we tend to hear like pastors, which is true, it's significant on that level, but there are other church staff members that they too have experienced a lot of this. So I think we're seeing it and, quite honestly, I think I felt a little bit of it myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so moving. We could talk about this at some point, but just navigating the world of what does stress look like and what happens if you don't address it, leading to exhaustion. What happens when you don't address it, at least to burn out what happens, and so just finding a lot of people there and feeling some of that myself, and that's kind of how the book was birthed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure you hit on something interesting there that I don't know if I've thought about it this way. But this idea that most leaders experience some kind of trauma as a result of COVID and just the impact, I mean every leader felt it right. But I mean I think now we're going into year number four and we're all thinking, ok, we've moved on and by and large society has moved on. But it makes sense to me that leaders probably experienced trauma and didn't Maybe having even given themselves permission to acknowledge that, is that fair?
Speaker 1:No, it's very fair. In fact, when you think about just again, there's a list of these. But if I were to just to mention a couple of things, you think about the emotional labor. You know some I've got my own emotions, but I don't. I don't have time, maybe even the energy, to navigate my own emotions, because everybody else is sharing theirs with me and I have this burden of responsibility as the leader to help them navigate there. So I take that so like. So, you know, that's a piece.
Speaker 1:I think, about the significant level of loss that many church staff felt.
Speaker 1:Loss could be literally the amount of people that died in some churches, the amount of people that never came back from church, the amount of people who had been in your church for a long time and maybe they decided to just start watching in a home permanently or another church.
Speaker 1:The loss and maybe financial revenue and the burden of like finding that. Maybe it's the confusion of, you know, roles and responsibilities at church and at home, and again, this stuff has been around. Right, it just became magnified and so much more of a burden, if you will Sure, during this period of time, and I think the trauma that can kick in is that your system is so overwhelmed that it's almost this inability to respond. Here's what's interesting about trauma. Oftentimes, most of the time, trauma is found when someone feels that they're going through something alone. So a lot of times when you talk to people about like childhood trauma and you listen to their story, there's a common denominator, and the common denominator is that they felt like they were going through whatever situation it was, alone. Hmm, here's on the flip side, when you see people heal from trauma and you listen for a common denominator for those that have, or either in the process or have, healed from trauma, it's not alone. So you can experience it becoming a trauma alone, but you cannot heal from trauma alone.
Speaker 2:Wow, wow, that's really fascinating. And then I immediately think of the whole challenge that lead. I mean leaders just generally feel lonely anyway. Yeah, just by the nature of their role and responsibilities, like they generally feel lonely. So that, yeah, that connects a lot of dots as well.
Speaker 1:And then let me say this, answering that question I also think on the backside of COVID there was a massive amount of comparison oh, that church is up more and they're back, to quote, normal, whatever that is, or that church is rebounded, or that church is man, they've completely innovated, or. And so I think a lot of people found themselves, well, guess what, you're coming out of COVID with little to no energy, but in the moment that you need it most, you ain't got it. That's true. Well, then that becomes guilt, you become guilty from that, and so you. It just keeps this vortex sucking you in until you find yourself, technically, if you are metaphorically at the bottom of a barrel and you're looking up and you're going, you know what? It's just easier for me to walk, I just can't do it. And, and then we haven't even talked about the level of depression, yada, yada, yada. So just a lot of things that are happening, and I think a lot of leaders are doing this and they're suffering in silence.
Speaker 2:It was going to say are they taught? Yeah, that was going to be. My next question to you is how much are people willing to talk about it? I feel like, in some ways, the subject of burnout is more common as far as people talking about it. Well, leaders acknowledge they're burnt out, or what does it take for them to acknowledge that?
Speaker 1:I think it depends on the people you know that they're talking to. So I'm talking to like my, my wife I might be cool to say it. I'm talking to like the pastors in the community. I might not cause there is this. Well, because burnout can be seen as a weakness. Oh, you feel you felt that it got you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, and it's like, so I need to put on a facade that I've got it all together, which is more work to do, versus saying you know what? I need some words again. You can get into it alone. You cannot get out of it alone. So, getting out of it alone, you need these people. So I think part of it is some are talking about it, but it just depends on to whom. The other aspect of it is we're all human, so we see this in corporate world, we see this in church world. We're humans and so it can happen to any of us. I think sometimes churches put unnecessary pressure and expectations on a senior pastor, or the senior pastor can actually do it for the staff, or the church can do it for the staff and they're no longer human.
Speaker 1:And so I think this is where, like tools and resources that we can use to be proactive. In fact, the idea of the book is actually two fold and kind of gets misconstrued, and it's probably bad marketing and bad writing on our part. And it's this. It is a book about burnout, but we would like to think of this book more so about how do you find and keep joy in your work and in life. Oh, because it's burnout that actually eclipses joy. Yeah, so, and here's the thing, I don't know that your listeners would want to know this, but this is in true transparency. The book was actually rejected by the publisher and it was like what we felt really good about the book, but the publisher they were right. They were right. Credit to them. They said the market is saturated with books because it was originally written on how to recover from burnout.
Speaker 1:They said the market is saturated, and I said you're right, then why are we still seeing the highest percentage of burnout if the market is saturated?
Speaker 2:Why?
Speaker 1:Yeah. And she said to us figure that out, but the book as is, like we're not publishing. So Jonathan and I went back and like so literally what we did is we inverted the book and we said you know what, in research we found? You've got a choice. You can work on the front side of burnout or on the backside. You can prevent or you can recover from it.
Speaker 2:It's a choice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so we decided let's write the book about the front side of burnout, that you can prevent it, and when you do that, you actually get to keep more of your joy at work and ministry and life with your friends and things of that nature versus you know, on the backside. And now, if you're listening right now and you're like well, jason, I'm on the backside, the book is applicable to you as well, right, but I'm just kind of giving you context on you know, kind of on how it is at the end of the day, some of us have a choice, and then others others of us you may be listening and you're like I don't have a choice, jason, the church really put me in a particular situation and that's where I would say you've got hard decisions to make.
Speaker 2:If that's the case, hmm, that's really insightful to hear, because what I feel, like I hear you saying, is like this is a book for every leader, because every one of us is going to be faced with the possibility of burnout, whether we've been there or not. So that more preventative, okay. What do I need to be doing to be intentional about avoiding burnout of like knowing what are the things that actually keep me in a healthy place? Is that? How would you say that better?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would say like if you're listening right now and you're lack energy, you're discouraged, maybe you wouldn't say these things out loud, but you don't care about people like you used to. You have brain fog, you're extremely anxious, maybe you feel this level of depression, maybe you know, maybe you're more irritable with your family, maybe there's just an overall lack of care about life, and so if that's you, you could be in that place, because here's the reality for all of us. I mentioned this earlier. We all experience stress, right, and it's normal.
Speaker 1:The challenge is, stress is like comes in sprints and it's like it's kind of seasonal. But if we don't this is on the prevention side if we don't navigate and put some things in a place to help us with our stress, then guess what the next step is? We find ourselves in a place of exhaustion. And some people say well, what is exhaustion? Exhaustion is that you've been under a lot of stress for a decent period of time. You're tired. You're tired. It can be emotionally, physically, mentally, right, spiritually. But if you could adjust a few levers like a hobby, your calendar, diet, exercise if you can adjust some of those levers, you can actually bounce back out of exhaustion and bounce back to a healthier place.
Speaker 1:If you don't navigate stress well, you find yourself in exhaustion. If you don't navigate exhaustion well, you find yourself in a burnout spot. And when you find yourself in a burnout spot, that's where a lot of these things happen in the reality. If you're exhausted, you can bounce back. If you're burned out, you don't bounce back, you crawl out. And so when you find yourself at a burnout, at a place of burnout, it's dark, and if you felt lonely before, this could feel even more of that. That's why you can get there alone, but you can't get out alone.
Speaker 1:So our book is really wanting to explode. The myth that I was told for years in school years by senior pastors that I worked for hey, burnout and leadership in ministry, it's inevitable, it's just. When is it your turn? Oh, wow. And so this book really is like no, I'm not gonna promote that myth, I'm not gonna buy into that. Burnout and leadership, burnout and ministry, it doesn't have to be inevitable. Will you be exhausted? Yes, but you don't have to burn out. And we hope that this book is really one of hope and encouragement to people.
Speaker 2:Because you coach leaders as well as coping them with content and thought leadership. Do you hear from leaders that they almost like, if they acknowledge the stress, the exhaustion and maybe even the burnout that they feel trapped, like that, there's not a way to adjust those levers that you were kind of referencing in those? If you noticed stress, if you noticed exhaustion, I feel like a lot of times I'll talk to leaders and they feel like they don't have any agency over it anymore. It's like it is just snowballed to a point of they're stuck. Have you seen that and how would? How do you respond to that?
Speaker 1:I think it's fair. I think when there's an accumulation of for an extended period of time, then you can find yourself exhausted. Sometimes it's giving yourself permission to move those levers, sometimes it's the system that's been set up around you by whomever that those levers are harder to adjust, and then you find yourself in a burnout, a place of burnout. Burnout is technically defined as a psychological syndrome that you have been under excessive stress. Of the depth of stress or an excessive period of time. It's just gone on.
Speaker 1:It's no longer a sprint, we're in a marathon stage, and so when that happens, it just gets dark, lonely, discouraging, and when discouragement sets in, there is a temptation on the other side of discouragement to make unhealthy decisions that could lead to destruction, and so it's almost like can one back up? This is where I think churches need to help themselves or staff you know, I mean there's a lot of work to do here, but I think a lot, when they get down the road, they're stuck and they say you know what, I'm here, I just had to figure out how to survive here. It is what it is, you know that feeling is legit.
Speaker 1:It's real because it's real to you. The challenge is if we're not spiritually fed, we will be emotionally led, and so I think there's this part of and, honestly, when you get to these places, let's just be real here. This is what I find with a lot of leaders when you get to this place, you don't really care so much about spending time with the Lord because you just don't have any energy. Sometimes you just don't have a care for it. Sometimes you're just ticked off at Him and you wouldn't maybe say that out loud, but the reality is, and then, all of a sudden, emotions, because they're real and they're powerful and they can lead us. Emotions are, for a reason, I feel, like God gave them to us, but I think that we have to be careful because they can lead us to places that are actually worse than a place we already are. So if you're stuck, you're probably right, yeah, but it doesn't mean you have to stay stuck, and it is going to take hard work and time and maybe a new system around you to help you move back to a place not that it used to look like.
Speaker 1:I think that I've worked with a lot of leaders. I hear this a lot, I can just get back to or if I can, and it's like, well, and just helping them navigate that, what if you'll never do that Right? And so there's a lot of spending time looking in the rear view mirror and so it's giving leaders permission to. What would it look like? To look through the windshield? Because it's actually a lot bigger than the rear view mirror, but the rear view mirror is like what I can see, what's real, versus through the windshield. That just seems as too big and as too much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's super helpful. I'm curious about the you can't really get out of it alone and you talk about in the book. If I recall, you talk about the different people you need around you. Can you speak to that a little bit? Who are those trusted voices and how do you engage them? So, especially when you've gotten to that lonely place and you've gotten to that dark place of discouragement and you need people, the last thing you think you want or need is people. Is that fair? And so speak to that a little bit of like who are those voices and how do you seek them out when you're in a stage season like that?
Speaker 1:So long time ago I would probably say I'd go back to maybe 15, 16 years old. I was fortunate, beginning then, even up until today I'm 45 to have voices in my life, and those voices they have been in certain seasons and they're different types of people, right. So I started just kind of I think this was back in 20, maybe 2010. I started kind of reflecting on just who's helped me, who are they like, and I created this list of 11 types of people. Again, not names, just types of people and I'm like, oh, they have shown up in different seasons of my life. Well, they still do. And so I actually use this list of 11 types of people like still to this day. And so, again, it's nothing like revolutionary. It just gave me like language to like okay, in the season, for example.
Speaker 1:One of them is I call a clarifier. Sometimes I'm just I feel discombobulated. I have no clarity about maybe life, relationships, vision, direction, decisions, whatever it is and I know that I can go to so and so and so and so, because they're area of expertise is they know how to peel back to help me find clarity. So like, maybe I need that in this season, another season maybe, like I've got great clarity. I just need help on strategy, like how do I get there? And they have this unique ability to you know there's I have one in there. That's again not fancy, but it's a friend that there are certain seasons, of course always need my friend, but there are certain seasons and burnout. This is true that they will love me without judgment.
Speaker 1:And that type of person. Again, they're always there, but there's this season, like I just needed more. I mentioned a pastor in there, so it just goes through these like types of people. Again, somebody asked me like you have all these types of people in your life like an old time? No, like I might have like two a year, the next year I might have seven. And so it just gives me a little bit of a framework and language for personally, for Jason to go you know what?
Speaker 1:I need this, yeah, this style of person, this type of person, and I have people that fit into each of those that I can reach out to and, quite frankly, I will look at the list to go like here's what this is what I call those types of people. Call them "my table of influence. So, it's inviting them to influence me in such a way that one day I want to be invited to others you know their table to influence them and how they live and make decisions.
Speaker 2:That's big, that's big. Yeah, you know what? What I hear in that too is there's a important part of self-awareness. You know I talk about that all the time the importance of leading ourselves well and the self-awareness component that's so essential for leaders. But there's a so I love the like, even that list of 11 of like. These are the types of people, the kind of the function or the type of influence they have. Then there's a self-awareness that happens when you're in. Maybe it's just a stress state or an exhausted state or, you know, a burnout state, but having the self-awareness to go, okay, what do I need? I need this type of voice to kind of help me think through this or process this or work through this and, having done the pre-work, to know who are those people, what are those voices, so that I can identify. What do I need now to help me? You know, move through this season that I'm in.
Speaker 1:Jenni, I found myself in a season and maybe those listening that you get this that I didn't know who I could like really say something to.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:And I had that list and I I mean I was overwhelmed and burdened and just horribly discouraged and I never will forget. I drove to, I went to this person's house not even in the same state I live in, and it was 11:" 30 midnight. My wife went, all the everybody went to bed and like in tears, I just said I don't Not all right.
Speaker 2:And you, that's big.
Speaker 1:But it came out of the 11 types of people for me to go," okay, I cannot do this by myself. I used to feel that way and just struggled, put on the façade. And then I just realized and it was in the conversation we didn't, Jenni, we didn't even solve anything, sure, but it was him looking at me with in his own eyes and he said and you being here and me being here, this is what you need right now. Yeah, and so it just came out of like I knew that I needed that particular style of person at this particular moment. Again, it's not revolutionary, but for me it was just helpful and it was so encouraging and I you know, I get tears in my eyes because, like it was, the moment was so, it was just so discouraging.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I just found myself in a fog that like I needed that person because I knew I wasn't gonna make the best decisions and I couldn't do this by myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's big. Jason, thanks for sharing that, because I know there's a lot of leaders that probably resonate with that feeling in that moment. But taking that you know courageous, seems like simple, but I'm sure it was not an easy step to show up at that person's door and say I need. You know I need help.
Speaker 2:Yeah and I can't do this alone. That's really important, really, really powerful. Have one more thought, one more question for you, in that most of our leaders listening, you know, when we talk about subjects like this, we we think about ourselves. You know up, because we probably all resonate with some level of burnout at some point. So I think every leader listening is like I've either been there or I've gotten really close. I've definitely had stress and exhaustion, so you know. So we've all been had some resonance with this.
Speaker 2:But then I think of the leaders who are responsible for others, whether it's other staff, volunteers. How would you coach us and or encourage us to be looking out for the people we lead? You know, when we talk so much about the importance of you know as leaders we are, our world really is to love, lead and serve others, and I think this is one of those places where we probably could be more intentional with helping just discern where other whether it be teammates, volunteers, etc. So would you speak to that a little bit of how do we do this, not just for ourselves, but for those we lead?
Speaker 1:I mean ideally, we model it. Yeah, let me, let me give a little clarification. If you're listening right now, you may say well, they said I'm far from like being this healthy version like of what you're talking about, and that's okay. You actually might be more normal than you can imagine as it relates to other leaders, because it is very common. However, here's what I mean by modeling you're on the journey toward that direction.
Speaker 1:Doesn't mean you're there, I don't even know where there is right, but you're. You're a leader that's on the journey and you're modeling this, you're practicing it, you're talking about it right in a vulnerable way, not like you know, but like just self-awareness of what you're knowing about yourself, the hard work you're putting in, how you're seeing growth, things of that nature. So for me, like it really does begin there doesn't mean I'm there like, but I'm, I'm navigating it and while you're doing that I think you're helping staff understand how important it is. Because if it's not important to the senior leader, it's not that it's not important to other people, it's just not as much of a priority, culturally. Right, like it could be if the senior leader said you know what. We're gonna raise this flag, that this is important. It gives people permission to also do the hard work collectively. Right, we've talked about a community and doing it together. So I think modeling it, I think talking about it, I think finding you know if you don't have the resources and tools, like is there someone in your staff that they're really good at that? Is there a coach that could help you do that? So help you and then also don't feel like you've got that, take the burden on to like help all 5, 10, 30, hundred of your staff, like that's it, that's an enormous burden. Yeah, yeah, because you're trying to do it yourself, like you're trying to grow and get healthier yourself. So I think you know, bringing people that can be helpful to you, but tools and resources and expectations and conversations and things of that nature, um, because as it goes internally, so goes it externally. By externally I mean your volunteers.
Speaker 1:I think sometimes we have volunteers that are like stressed, exhausted and burned out, not even at church but at work, and then they show up at church and for some it is very invigorating to do that, because sometimes we ask the same ones all the time to do everything, you know, or we aren't respectful of their work schedule, right? You know, I have been guilty of that. Sometimes we're not clear on that expectation. Sometimes we're more interested in getting to do stuff than we are to care about them. And so it's really putting this care system into place and checking in with them. Right, again, this is super, super high level, but it's checking in with them and putting some things into place and it's helping staff understand, you know, which goes to like what's our crew volunteering here at our church, our nonprofit? Like, what does that look like? You know that could help alleviate some of this.
Speaker 1:You know, stress, exhaustion, burnout, potentially on our volunteers, right? Are we doing too much? Right? Yeah, I know it's cool, but are we doing too much? Like, is it necessary? So they're like all of these things that we could explore. I think, having you said this earlier, having it on the radar, is a great first step modeling it.
Speaker 1:You, the senior leader, modeling it. You're on the journey, modeling it, then helping people get on the journey too, with equipment and tools, resources, other people how are it looks like? And then staff helping your volunteers. You're doing the same thing. What does that look like? And you know how can you help them. And again, I wish we had more time, but there are some things that you could do to really help your volunteers be the best volunteers and actually have that same joy that we're talking about and not have to walk into exhaustion and burnout, because, remember, if you're going to do a lot at the church, don't forget that many of them including myself, because this is the role I'm in now I'm not on staff. We have a lot going on. I travel an enormous amount, so I'm taking a red-eyed to get to that church that you might not know about, but it is being aware of things and just caring a little bit, a little bit more, and not just a sign of people and seeing them as like doers of work.
Speaker 2:That's good. That's really good. Jason, one of the things I appreciate about you and I've always experienced this, but I think, even as I hear you describe the approach to the book and how you kind of want to walk people through this is that you just always present such a hopefulness. And I think a lot of times when we are talking about topics like this, we focus on what's hard and I think you always bring the hopeful part of it. So even as you were sharing about, you want people to live from that place of joy and how you even structured the book in such a way to say, hey, let's focus on that. So I want to encourage everybody to check that out. How can they connect with you, get the book? I think there's an assessment, so tell us all of the ways we can dig a little deeper.
Speaker 1:Yeah, on the hope side, it reminds me to forward to this book was written by a pastor in California and Ray Johnston at Bayside. And really the last sentence of the book because he's so energetic and hopeful and optimistic but it says so well, coming on the backside of what you just said, my prayer is that you go, let hope replace fear, energy replace exhaustion, enjoy, replace dread in your ministry and in your leadership. And I think I might, pastor Ray, like that is exactly the sentence and prayer that I do feel. So, yeah, feel free, there's a free assessment. Maybe you're asking like, where do I even start? Like, am I exhausted or burned out or am I fine? Where am I? So there's a free assessment. Don't burn out burnbright. com. Don't burn out burnbright. com. When you go there, it's a free assessment. It actually gives you one result, so you don't have to. You're not getting two and three.
Speaker 1:And then what it does? That one result ties back to one chapter in the book. People say where do I start? Start there. Well, the result type of one chapter start there. If you don't need to rest of the rest of the book, don't do it. Read that one chapter and go do the work. Sometimes we're inundated with information, like you read one chapter.
Speaker 1:That's cool. Do your thing so you can check that out. Don't burn out, Burn bright. Personally, Drj ason young. com, that sounds so fancy.
Speaker 2:Drj ason young. com.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm not sometimes that either. Like, oh you know, but you could, you know if you're curious, like, but more things and all of that kind of stuff, don't let the head shot there on the front page, the marketing team thought we need to put a picture of you right there and it's like, I love it! Not my style, but they love it. But yeah, anybody can reach out at any time. Happy to you, know, connect in any way. But I just appreciate you and Jenni, you and your friendship in the way that you help so many churches and staff members. You know you've always done a great job, you're easy to respect and easy to follow, so thank you for letting me be here today.
Speaker 2:Awesome, Jason. Thank you, this was a gift, super grateful for your influence and leadership, and we're all ready to dig in more, so thank you.
Speaker 1:My pleasure.
Speaker 2:All right, all right. Well, I hope you took lots of notes, like I did, and I hope this got you thinking about this topic a little bit. I think all of us can relate to some level of stress, exhaustion or burnout, and I think getting really honest about where are we and what do we need, is a really important step for us to keep leading well. So, friends, share this with a friend of yours, maybe your team, maybe it's just a good catalyst, a conversation, that kind of catalyst, as a catalyst for conversation around this topic as a team. So I would share it with your team, or share it with a couple of friends and process it and talk it through, maybe thinking through some of those people that are the people that you want in your life, that you can reach out to. This would be a good one to share with them.
Speaker 2:So let me know what you thought of this week's episode. You can connect with me on Instagram and Facebook at Get4sight, g-e-t the number four, s-i-g-h-t, or on LinkedIn at the 4Sight group, or you can find me personally at Jenni Catron. And if you're looking for more leadership resources to help you and your team thrive this year, sign up for my free Insights newsletter at Get4Sightcom. That's G-E-T, the number four, s-i-g-h-t. com. Thank you for listening today, guys. I am so grateful that every week, we get to talk about important topics that are impacting us as leaders. That's why we do the work that we do. So keep leading well and I will see you next time.