This week on the Lead Culture Podcast, our guests, John Busacker of LiminalSpace and Matt Randerson from Barna Group guide us through a conversation on the art of 'mentoring' and the dance between humility and adaptability in leadership. As we dissect the complexities of steering teams through uncertainty, you'll gain insights into how the fabric of workplace culture is being re-woven in our current times.
Imagine a workplace where culture isn't just a buzzword but a living, breathing ecosystem co-created by every team member. We'll talk about the shared responsibility in cultivating such an environment, especially as remote work blurs the lines between our professional and personal spheres, the importance of clear boundaries for mental well-being, and the significant role each team member plays in fostering a supportive and cohesive culture.
Finally, we turn the spotlight towards the future, discussing the vitality of culture consulting and the construction of robust teams.
Resources
Get4sight.com
Barna.com
Liminalculture.com
Download the Barna Research Slide Deck
We need your help to get the Lead Culture podcasts in front of more leaders! There are three simple things you can do that truly help us:
This week on the Lead Culture Podcast, our guests, John Busacker of LiminalSpace and Matt Randerson from Barna Group guide us through a conversation on the art of 'mentoring' and the dance between humility and adaptability in leadership. As we dissect the complexities of steering teams through uncertainty, you'll gain insights into how the fabric of workplace culture is being re-woven in our current times.
Imagine a workplace where culture isn't just a buzzword but a living, breathing ecosystem co-created by every team member. We'll talk about the shared responsibility in cultivating such an environment, especially as remote work blurs the lines between our professional and personal spheres, the importance of clear boundaries for mental well-being, and the significant role each team member plays in fostering a supportive and cohesive culture.
Finally, we turn the spotlight towards the future, discussing the vitality of culture consulting and the construction of robust teams.
Resources
Get4sight.com
Barna.com
Liminalculture.com
Download the Barna Research Slide Deck
We need your help to get the Lead Culture podcasts in front of more leaders! There are three simple things you can do that truly help us:
The Art of Leadership Network.
Speaker 2:Hey leaders, welcome to the Lead Culture Podcast, part of the Art of Leadership Network. I'm your host, Jenni Catron. Each week, I'll be your guide as we explore powerful insights and practical strategies to equip you with the tools you need to lead with clarity and confidence and build a thriving team. My mission is to be your trusted coach, empowering you to master the art of self-leadership so you'll learn to lead yourself well, so you can lead others better. Each week, we'll take a deep dive on a leadership or a culture topic. You'll hear stories from amazing guests and leaders like you who are committed to leading well. So let's keep learning on this leadership journey together. Friends, today I am joined by my guests, John Busacker and Matt Randerson, two really thoughtful guys that you're going to enjoy hearing from, and we're going to talk about the topic of four considerations for workplace culture. And we're going to look at some research that Barna has done and some insights from John and his company, Liminalspace. And I am really excited to dive into this, you guys, because I think I walked away from this conversation almost with a few more questions even than answers. Right, I put that curiosity hat on going, "There are some really interesting insights that John and Matt raised from the data that I think are really important and impactful for us as leaders". So let me tell you a little bit more about both John and Matt before we dive into this conversation.
Speaker 2:John is a writer, speaker and entrepreneur. He's the founder and president of Lifeworth, a personal leadership development firm, and founding partner of Liminal Culture. He has spoken on six continents, engaging such issues as personal engagement, authentic leadership and holistic generosity. His passion extends globally, supporting the development needs of nonprofit organizations in the US and sub-Saharan Africa. John and his wife, carol, live outside of Minneapolis, Minnesota, and have two married children and four grandchildren. Matt Randerson serves as vice president at Barna Group, where he works with churches and faith-based organizations to identify their most important opportunities using research. Matt sees research as a way to create confidence and clarity for leaders around their greatest opportunities in the Christian landscape. Prior to Barna, Matt worked for a Fortune 300 company designing compelling engagement offerings for church pastors around the country. He graduated from Lee University with a degree in pastoral ministry and he lives with his wife and son in Atlanta, Georgia.
Speaker 2:Guys, I've had the privilege of getting to know both John and Matt much more over the last few months because we've really connected around this topic of workplace culture, and so you're going to love some of the insights they share today, these considerations that they've kind of taken from some of the data, and I hope it really sparks some ideas for you how can you lead your culture better, what can you take away from what these guys share and how can it inform a healthier workplace culture for you and your team. John and Matt, I am thrilled for this conversation today. I have had the privilege of connecting with both of you for different reasons, but often around the subject of workplace culture, and you guys have done some research together John, your organization, Liminal, commissioned Barna to do some research, and there's some fascinating things around workplace culture that we're going to dive into today that I'm really excited to hear from you guys. But before we get there, I'd love for you both to do maybe just a little intro. Tell our listeners a little bit about yourselves, and then we'll dive into this content.
Speaker 2:So, John, can I start with you? Have you make a little introduction?
Speaker 1:I'd be delighted to, and, Jenni, thanks for having us on. I really appreciate the opportunity just to have a conversation with you and with my friend and colleague Matt here. I jokingly say that I'm an average person in the sense that the average person has three to five careers, and I'm currently in my third career. I was a high school educator and counselor for a couple of years and then I spent 14 years in financial services, all on the field side of financial services, meeting with clients, helping them to develop financial plans and execute on them, and then the last 29 years I've been in personal leadership development and organizational effectiveness and focusing right now more and more on organizational culture. And so I would say kind of the golden thread woven through all of those work experiences is a real deep desire to help people flourish, from high school students to clients and financial services to now individual leaders and teams within organizations. Personally, I'm married, have two adult children at least chronologically their adults, most days they act like that too and then they are both married and we have four grandchildren.
Speaker 1:So, fun yeah that's awesome.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. Matt, tell us about you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I wish I could say that my career has panned out so far in three stages, but I'm actually a little bit earlier in my career and I've been at Barna for about four years. Prior to that I was working at a financial services organization just helping people figure out their relationship with money. So that is a very common thread that John and I even specifically shares is this idea of financial well being. And if I were to pull a thread through the early years of my career thus far, one of the ones that I would pull is probably just my fascination and desire to use content and insights, not for the sake of just creating content, but for the sake that it can create conversation and that it can spark ideas and creativity. And that's what I've just had the ability to do over the last several years of my career, specifically with Barna. Obviously, we'll share some data today. Hopefully it sparks some creativity, some insight and some curiosity. So just wonderful to be here with the two of you and the conversation that we'll have.
Speaker 2:Love it. Love it so good, Matt, you and I. It's been a couple of years since you and I connected, but I just love the way you can look at data and you see patterns and you see behaviors, and it's not just the numbers, but you actually are able to see. Okay, what is that telling me about people? What is that telling me about their behaviors or their interests? And so I feel like you have such a healthy look at data as a tool to help us get insight into people and their behaviors and so forth. Is that a fair way for me to describe that?
Speaker 3:That's how I experience it. Yeah, absolutely. First thanks Jenni for that. And yes, we always say at Barna here, behind every data point, whether it's a pie chart or bar graph, is lived human experiences. So, as even today we talk about this percentage or that percentage, it's always so important to anchor that and reminding ourselves that there are lived human experiences behind those data points. And for us as leaders, it's really important to pay attention to those experiences.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's really good.
Speaker 2:I think sometimes especially, you know, we work with a lot of ministry teams, nonprofit teams and in those spaces a lot of times we can overlook data because we listen to stories in antidote, and I've always found that the data just makes me more curious, like it's telling me something about what people are actually experiencing or what's going on with them, and oftentimes I feel like the data is just such really powerful insight.
Speaker 2:So, you know, I think sometimes, especially in ministry contexts, we can want to, you know, say it's one or the other you know and I think they're so powerful together and I think that's. You know, Matt, I think you do that well, Barna does that extremely well, and so this is going to be fun to dive in, because today we're going to talk a little bit more about workplace culture, which the listeners will know is a big passion point for me. But, Matt, let's start with you. Barna really is a trusted research voice generally in our community and you've embarked on several studies on work and workplace culture over the last several years. What would you kind of summarize as that macro observation across the research that you've seen in the last five years? Like, what are you just kind of seeing at large?
Speaker 3:Yeah, if I could summarize it, I would say the workplace is drastically changing, expectations are shifting in very seismic ways and throughout history, sometimes the circumstances are unfortunate, but these events happen in a way that just accelerate movement drastically, dramatically. And so we all know COVID and everything that that was for us was this incredible accelerant. And so the things that are shifting partially were kind of expedited as a result of those years of experience everything from the remote work, but not even just that, but just people, how they feel about their careers, what expectations they have around where they spend their time in order to receive an economic compensation. And then the last thing I would add is I think, or I would perceive, that there's this expectation or hope that the future looks more like something different than the past.
Speaker 3:But, what I mean by that is let's take church attendance as an example. As we kind of got through COVID, everyone's like, well, when will it go back to the way it was? There was a portion of individuals that were just like, okay, I'm just longing for it to go back to the way it was. There was also a portion of people saying like, actually, I'm expecting or hoping it's something different than it's never been before. So I think some of that same concept applies in the workplace that there is this kind of longing or hopeful desire that the workplace experience and career will look more like something that we don't know yet, versus more of what we've already known.
Speaker 2:Interesting. Yeah, it's interesting for you to make that comparison of like, for a little bit it was like we just wanted to go back and I would say, anecdotally I feel like I'm hearing the same thing that people are trying to envision something different, especially around workplace culture, and the expectations are kind of all over the map on that, at least from my experience, and I'm sure you're going to get into some data that'll help us look at that more closely. But that's super interesting. John, I'd love for you to chime in. You know you're a co-founder of an organization called Liminal Culture and you have a fascinating framework around the concept of liminal space. You guys help organizations work on culture and this word liminal is a wording concept that may not be terribly familiar to listeners. Maybe we've heard it, but we're like I still don't quite get what that is. Can you talk about that a little bit and why it matters to workplace culture, because I think that's going to help inform some of the rest of our conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what Matt was just describing actually is liminal space, so liminal is not a word. So there's a lot of made up words and branding, you know, because domain names have been gobbled up.
Speaker 2:So we all make up our own thing.
Speaker 1:We all make up our own thing, we make up words. The word liminal is not a made up word, it's actually Latin. Limin is the root word here and it's Latin for threshold. So when you're standing on the threshold, you're kind of in this space that is betwixt in between. You know something is ending, but what's next has not yet quite begun. Yeah, so liminal space. And as people of faith, we actually know this. Whether we know that word or not, we know the concept of liminal space intimately because, as people of faith, if you're a person of faith, you're in liminal space, you're between the now and the what's next. But we're not there yet, right?
Speaker 1:All of the familiar stories in scripture, for example, are liminal space stories. So Jonah in the big fish, Noah in the ark, Jesus in the grave, the children of Israel in the wilderness, and we like those stories, if we're acquainted with those stories, because we know how they all turned out. Right, right, yeah, when Jonah was in the big fish, he probably wasn't going. Wow, this is awesome. This is really an interesting learning opportunity.
Speaker 3:He's going to get me out of the fish.
Speaker 2:Right, yes.
Speaker 1:So how this applies to culture is why we chose intentionally chose the word Liminal Culture is the name of the organization I helped launch. Is we see culture in the liminal space right now. Mm, hmm, so example, just a quick example of this I visited a world headquarters of an organization here in town about a month ago. Beautiful world headquarters, you know, spectacular learning spaces. They built the headquarters about five, six years ago. The only thing missing in the entire building were humans. There were eight floors of beautiful learning space with no human beings. Wow, because culturally, they're in liminal space.
Speaker 1:They have not figured out what the right mixture is of demanding people come in for a certain period of time, making it optional for people to come in, or hybrid, what have you? And as a result, people are choosing not to come into the office at all. Yeah, it's liminal, and so I believe we believe that culture is always liminal. It's always kind of between, because culture is never done. Right, and as soon as you think culture is done, organizational culture is done, you're on a slippery slope to disaster. Actually, yeah, and so it's always in between, but it seems like right now it's particularly kind of betwixt in between, right?
Speaker 2:now. Yeah, that makes so much sense. A lot of our listeners can resonate with that because they're just like it doesn't feel settled yet all the changes that have taken place and trying to anticipate what's coming or what's needed feels like you're shooting in the dark a bit.
Speaker 1:Yes, agree, very good.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm excited to dive into some of the research that you guys partnered on. I think you're going to offer up four considerations for workplace culture from that data. I'll just open it up to you guys. What can we learn from the research, this concept of liminal space? Go ahead and give us some insights of what you all found as you dug into this research.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's great. Thanks, Jenni. As we go through each of these considerations, one piece that I want to use is just set up a framing here is the idea of generations. That's not a new concept. A lot of us are really familiar with it, but it's important for us to understand. One, the history of why are we so interested in generations? And two, it is actually really important because it plays out in the workplace in a significant way. Let me just very briefly generations was this construct or this way of looking at society that emerged after World War II. It was really focused on this idea that, oh wait, if we put this product or this message in front of people, people respond differently.
Speaker 3:It's interesting to think about as we're looking at our workplaces, as we're looking at workplace culture, and there's not a shortage of research that will say, oh, gen Z thinks this way, millennials think this, et cetera. It's just important to recognize that o ne, it's a helpful way of considering data. Then, two, here's why it's really interesting in the workplace context, especially because we don't get the opportunity to, for the most part, pick who our coworkers are. We just show up. If you're familiar with the show The Office, that's actually part of the underlying shtick of the whole thing, of why it's so funny, is all these not only these people have the choice of who their coworkers are. It's just this random, wild collection of people. For the most part, in other areas of our life, we do get to choose who we're around, but it's very different in the workplace context. This is critical as we jump into this first consideration, because you've got a lot of different generations interacting with one another on your business, for your business, for the things that you're setting out to do.
Speaker 3:What we see from the research and this is consideration number one is that there's actually a lack of consensus about what good culture looks like. We asked in the research imagine organization with a great workplace culture and we gave them a list of attributes and we told them to pick their top four, the four most important attributes to a great workplace culture. What we see here I'm just going to share these out loud here is most people agree 57% that the employees are well compensated. That's actually number one. The number one thing that attributes a great workplace culture is great compensation. Number two is that employees have opportunities to grow and develop. Third was the organization prioritizes the well-being of its employees. And fourth was the organization has effective leadership. Those are the top four. We'll make these data slides available in the show notes if everyone wants to see it.
Speaker 3:Here's where it gets interesting and why we make the consideration is that there's a lack of consensus around what great culture looks like. If you take that data set and then you say, well, what did millennials respond? In Gen X and Boomers and Gen Z, you'll find that they don't actually have a consensus amongst what they think is the most important thing. There's one outlier and that's Gen Z. This is the youngest generation. From all the other generations, they see the great workplace culture as number one. The organization prioritizes the well-being of its employees. Number two the organization has effective communication. Number three the employees have opportunities to grow and develop. Four the organization has effective leadership.
Speaker 3:Now let me just outline. The one thing that was drastically different is that compensation was not in the top four for Gen Z. I'll conclude with this Millennials, Gen Xers and Boomers so millennials kind of cut off right now. In the early 30s and above, they actually are pretty aligned on what makes great culture. If you're out there in the audience right now and you're a Boomer and you're thinking, I have nothing in common with a Millennial not entirely true. You actually have more consensus in what makes good culture. The outlying group in this whole equation is Gen Z, that youngest generation.
Speaker 3:They are the ones that have a very different understanding of what makes a great workplace culture.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's super fascinating, Matt. Maybe I might be digging into a thread that we need to pick up at another time, but I'm curious if that's also why we feel they're the group that's starting to enter the workforce. Maybe this is why it feels so just like unpredictable or uncertain, or leaders don't know how to lead through it, because you've got this young group coming in with such vastly different perspective on what makes great culture, as opposed to the rest of the generations in the workforce.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. And I can't help but think of you know, John, this idea of liminal space, like you know what comes to mind for you as we are in almost this kind of awkward. We've gotten younger generation, Gen Z, really coming onto the workplace. We're really coming onto the workplace scene. Older generations, yeah. What are your thoughts on this?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, it's it's creating liminal space. I mean, simplistically stated. So this is the first time ever where we have five generations together in the workplace at one time and it's changing rapidly. In the next six years, I believe, it is Baby Boomers, all Baby Boomers will have hit age 65. And so you're going to see, I mean, people are working longer now than they did before, but you're going to see more Boomers leaving the workplace as Gen Z comes into the workplace and, as Matt just pointed out from the research, they view work and culture quite differently.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so how leaders lead through that, how they interact in an environment as Matt pointed out where you haven't necessarily chosen, you know the people with whom you're working, the teams that you're a part of, how you lead through that, lead well through that across these different generations. So the good news and the bad news of liminal space the bad news is that it's uncomfortable because as as people, as humans, we like we tend to like answers more than we like questions.
Speaker 1:Right, we like things to be settled and clear, and so that's the bad news. The good news is that it's also the space where we learn the most. So, in that in between space, where there are questions, where we are having to experiment and sort things out and work and think differently, it's a place of great learning. Yeah, and so it can be. If you allow it to be, if leaders allow it to be, it can be an exhilarating place as well, a way of rethinking things and recasting things, but it's not a it's not a real comfortable spot.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking of many leaders that I'm working with and it's like, ok, this makes so much sense. You know, just even in this first observation of this first consideration that you guys have identified, it makes so much sense why these tensions feel really present right now for leaders, right. Yeah, I'm comfortable, I like that I like that word because that that describes it right.
Speaker 1:And there's a. There's a word this is a made up word, ok that Chip Connelly coined. He called, called it menterning. So so if you're a, if you're a Baby Boomer, for example, working with a Gen Z, you might find yourself very much in the place of being both a mentor and an intern at the same time, which is which is a marvelous thing, actually can be a marvelous thing where you're you're learning, right, really stoking your learning, but you're also having the opportunity at that life and work stage to pour into somebody from life and work experience. Yeah, it's a great thing, but again, not always.
Speaker 2:Humility to, doesn't it yeah?
Speaker 1:yes, yeah, sure, that's good.
Speaker 2:Talk about the second consideration. I feel like I could keep asking a zillion questions, but I want to get through at least the four considerations and then and then come back, if we can.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So the second consideration we drew out from the data was that cultures critical but lacks tangible investment. So we asked US adults a variety of statements and they selected their level of agreement with these statements. And so the statement that we asked was cultures stated as important but lacks tangible investment. So they were to say I agree strongly with that statement or agree somewhat, disagree somewhat or strongly disagree. Here's what we found 57% US adults have an agreement with the idea that cultures stated as important but lacks tangible investment or direction.
Speaker 3:So you know, we for many years and many decades and I think there's there's truth to this certainly that great workplace performance equals great workplace culture and great workplace culture equals great performance. The two are kind of linked together. But I think what I see as I look at this data is there's not a disagreement about the value and the importance of culture, but there's almost a disappointment or let down of the tangible investment into it. And I have to recognize to the audience and even to the three of us on on the call here and Jenni, you work in culture all the time that sometimes culture can feel elusive, it can feel subjective, it's trying to like grab the air sometimes. Yes. So I have to recognize that that it is a very complex thing but it's very critically important, and so that the lack of tangible investment is both a little bit disappointing but hopefully is a little bit of an encouragement for all of us as leaders to think about how can we tangibly invest and deposit into our culture.
Speaker 3:And just one generational storyline here yes, 57% of US adults agree with that statement. But when we look at it from a generational perspective we see a very different perspective begin to emerge. So just 7% of Boomers strongly agree that culture is state is important but lacks tangible investment. Gen X would say 14%, millennials would say 23% and Gen Z that youngest generation, would say 26%. So you kind of see the scale. As you look down the younger cohort, age cohorts within the workplace, they're more likely to agree strongly with this idea at culture, hey, it's state is important, but honestly it really is lacking some tangible investment or direction. So that's kind of the observation number two.
Speaker 2:Super fascinating. That makes me wonder. You guys, as I'm hearing you, just share this right now, most of the people who sit in the most senior leadership seats in organizations are going to be Boomers and Gen X. The percentage of them agreeing with that statement is so much smaller than younger generations. Younger generations are saying this is important and we need a plan. Older generations are saying, yeah, maybe it's important, but not like so. Is that maybe some of the disconnect of why there's this growing desire for the importance of culture, but maybe our most senior leaders are not valuing it at the same level? Am I interpreting that somewhat right?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Or I'm speculating maybe a bit on that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, certainly, and I don't want to over kind of psychoanalyze leaders in any way, but I can't help but be curious about, as I look at the data and you look at older generations is it maybe perhaps more a product of people just having been in the workplace for a very long time, versus Gen Z, as an example, when they're looking at and they're answering this question? Yeah, it's critically important and it's lacking tangible investment or direction. Their years of experience in it is much smaller, going back to our introduction of John's in the third stage of his career, and I'm still kind of in my first. I can't help but be curious. But it's a great call out, Jenni, to say those that are kind of in the executive space or making the critical decisions around resource and investment are probably of an older generation and their relationship with this statement is vastly different than the people that are coming new and younger into their doors.
Speaker 2:You say it so much better, Matt.
Speaker 1:I might add one other way maybe of looking at that. It's a great question. You asked, Jenni, I think, a lot of going into the pandemic. I think a lot of organizations assumed that they had a culture because they were working together, physically together. Right, yeah, I would like to say that everyone, every organization, every ministry, every church, every family for that matter, has a culture. You have a culture. It's either by design or it's by default. That's right. And so I think, if you've been in a workplace for a longer period of time, you may be making some assumptions that it's designed, when in fact, one of the things that certainly COVID has shined a light on coming out of it is that just being physically together doesn't necessarily mean that you have a designed, intentional culture.
Speaker 2:That's good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's really good. I really do think there is. So Gallup found that 41%, when asked what's the one thing that you could do to make your workplace better, 41% of the respondents said better culture. Wow, wow. So clearly it's important, but how you invest in it. It's not just more office swag. It's not a quarterly happy hour, that's right. It's not $5 off the gym membership. It's something considerably more. It's deeper than that.
Speaker 2:That's right, yeah, okay, take us to consideration number three.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So, Jenni, I'm excited to hear your thoughts on this, in particular because you and I have had a little bit of a conversation around this one, so I'll kind of hopefully put the ball on the tee here for you and hear your thoughts on the end of this. So consideration number three is a disconnect exists between culture and performance.
Speaker 3:A disconnect exists between culture and performance. So again, I knew that there's often the narrative that, as we kind of touched on a little bit in the last one, is that, like, great performance equals great culture, great culture equals great performance. I think there's, as one of my mentors pointed out. She said you know, it's kind of interesting how you look at all of these books written about culture and they're from all these large companies out in Silicon Valley and they actually have pretty bad culture. I'm not throwing shots at anyone here, but it's just an interesting observation that some of the largest companies that can absolutely crush performance may not have good culture, and so there's a little bit of disconnect that I think is existing in the employee experience between those two things. So let me share the data and then, Jenni, I'm just so curious to hear your thoughts on this and what you've seen in your work.
Speaker 3:So we again ask people on the agreement scale around whether or not workplace culture is tied to the company performing well. So just 17% of Boomers claim that connection between a company or its people performing well is a part of a positive workplace culture. That's compared to Gen Z at 35% Again, Boomers, those that are kind of in the 50, 55, 60 age range of their work careers. Just 17% of them are agreeing with this kind of idea of the connection between the two. Versus Gen Z, that youngest generation, 35% of them are saying no, I think there's, I think there's more connective tissue between those two.
Speaker 3:So it's just interesting again for us to think about the idea that there's a disconnect between culture and performance. And again, not everyone sees it the same way, but I kind of the scorecard to summarize the point here. The scorecard is not so great when it comes to thinking about the culture experience and also the performance experience of the organization. So, Jenni, just curious to hear do you find this to be true or what have you experienced when it comes to culture and performance?
Speaker 2:This actually makes me very curious, because what I began to think about, as you were sharing that, is some conversations that I've had as of late with leaders that I'm working with around how some of the older generations are used to being able to compartmentalize life more, and so work had a function and a purpose that sometimes my suspicion is maybe they didn't need it to be a great culture. It was a functional part of their life. But now, younger generations, life is so much more integrated. I can still remember the days when my big computer at my desk could not go home with me, and so I finished my work. Matt's probably laughing, John knows.
Speaker 2:John does it. It's been amazing.
Speaker 2:It's like it couldn't go home with me, nor did I have a cell phone even in the early days of my career, and so when I left work, I left work. The only time that I got a call was if it was a true emergency on my landline at home, which, again, some of you, Matt's laughing, and many of our listeners are probably dying because that's not our world anymore. Everything is so much more integrated, and I think these younger generations expect that and that's all they know is for all of life to be so much more integrated, and therefore the connection of culture is so critical to their performance. I guess what comes to mind is I hear that, Matt, but I'd be curious for you or John to add to that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's such a good insight, Jenni. So a statistic for example, Star Tribune, local paper here in Minneapolis, where I'm located, they had a couple of weeks ago. They said 36% of employees are feeling more burned out than just one year ago, which is a result of kind of what you're describing as more integrated nature 44% this is according to Gallup. 44% of employees said they experience a lot of stress daily, and so people are feeling the pinch of this being integrated, of always being on. I used to have an office that I worked out of that was literally seven minutes away from my house and even though I did take my computer home with me, for example, so it was beyond the big computer on the desk and now.
Speaker 1:I had it, but I found that just that seven minute separation, just the drive from the office to the house actually created physically a separation versus now for the last 10 years
Speaker 1:before it was cool to be remote. I've been remote for over a decade actually. I find that as I walk in the evening, as I walk to go up the stairs to go to the bedroom, I walk past my office and there's the gravitational pulse like this arm reaching out trying to grab me, to pull me in check email one more time. All of that is so boundaries become very important as a part of this project.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, super fascinating. Okay, I got to move us on to number four. This is such good stuff. I'm sure it's going to spark lots of questions and process curiosity for our listeners. This is so good. All right, let's talk about the fourth one.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So consideration number four is great culture is a shared responsibility. Great culture is a shared responsibility. So as we trying to end on a high note here, so as we look to the future of the workplace culture and as it unfolds, we must consider that great culture is truly a shared responsibility. As, John, you talked about in the beginning, this idea of liminal space, what has been versus what may be. I talked a little bit about how perhaps younger generations are really hoping and expecting that the future will look different than the past. It's important for us to think about. So whose shoulders does that responsibility fall on? To go create something new, something different, something better than what we've had up to this point, and not to diminish. There are good things about what we currently have, but we would absolutely make the argument that great culture is a shared responsibility, and we see this in the research.
Speaker 3:So we asked individuals, US adults in general who do you believe has more responsibility over the thriving in an organization and its employees? The options were the organization's leadership, the other option was the organization's employees, and then the third was I'm not sure. So what we saw was that a majority of people 59% attribute more responsibility to the thriving of an organization and its employees to the organization's leadership. So what that's saying is hey, who's responsible for this thing? A slight majority is given towards saying hey, I think it's the leadership's responsibility. It's the people at the top, it's the executives. It's their responsibility to make sure that we have a great workplace culture. But again, holding true here is also the reality that people are saying no, I think it's actually my responsibility, it's the responsibility of the individuals and the employees to say we got to hold this thing and we got to steward it well.
Speaker 3:And holding true to a lot of the theme and trend that we saw in the data. The results are different when you look at the different generations. Again, I apologize to some of my older age cohorts that might be listening, but the data shows here that older generations would index more towards saying hey, it's the leadership's responsibility. I don't have a huge responsibility in it. In fact, just 21% of Boomers would say it's the employee's responsibility, versus 64% of Boomers would say no, it's the leadership of the organization, it's their responsibility. Now that contrast to Gen Z, who's 40%. So they're twice as likely as Boomers to say hey, this, the responsibility of this falls on the shoulders of the employees. So it's just an interesting thing, I think it's interesting yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So there's no right or wrong answer of whose responsibility is it? Is it the organization's? Yes, is it the employees? Yes, and I think it truly is a shared responsibility if we're going to continue to make great places of work and employment.
Speaker 2:That's powerful. John, how do you coach when you're working with teams on culture? How do you coach around that concept that it is a shared responsibility?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we actually have a framework. So Liminal, we have a framework and the beginning place of that framework is people. So really knowing your people, so knowing their story, knowing what motivates them. So Daniel Pink has done some great work around intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. So Matt pointed out in the research from Barna they did point to extrinsic rewards, pay matters I mean, most of the vast majority of people aren't working just for a loving, they're actually working for a living and intrinsic rewards what motivates you? Why do you? What are you passionate about? What are you bringing to work? What's calling you to work? So really knowing a person's story, their motivations, their strengths, their behaviors, matters a great deal.
Speaker 1:Dick and Ruth, both two older adults who wrote a beautiful book, short book, titled Known, say that we don't just tell stories, we are stories. And so knowing the story of the people that are a part of the team, knowing the, knowing who they are and how then aligned they are to the mission and the values of the organization, that's where great culture starts, that's how people flourish. The challenge of that is time, sure. So it takes time actually to. So as a leader, I have to invest a certain amount of time to actually get authentically get to know that story. It's not just a technique, it's actually. I'm truly authentically interested in knowing your story, Jenni, and your story, Matt, and taking a sufficient time to know that and then seeing how that aligns with the work that we're doing. You can live that out within the culture of the organization that we're a part of.
Speaker 2:So good, so good. Wow, this is some great insight and perspective. I think that's probably sparked more questions than answers for everybody listening right now in a good way, right, in a good way of like oh wow, here's some things I hadn't thought about. Here's some considerations that I need to just dig into more as a leader for my team and for my organization. Super, super helpful, John. How can we connect more with you, learn more about Liminal? And then, Matt, I'd love for you to do the same. Just let us know how folks could take the next steps on connecting more with you guys.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks for asking. So a great starting point is a website. So liminalculture. com L-I-M-I-N-A-L. Liminalculture. com it's a great place to learn a little bit more about our story and the work that we do, and there's a place in there for if you want more, there's a place there to just punch a button and we'll get in touch with you.
Speaker 3:So that's perfect.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Awesome, yeah. And for Barna, we love research. If you're not familiar with our website, barna. com, super simple. Sign up for our weekly newsletters. We're always dropping new, fresh research on what we're finding at the intersection of faith and culture. So while we've talked to you a lot about workplace culture, we get the opportunity to study a wide array of topics and areas as it again intersects faith and culture. So, pastors, next gen, giving all kinds of different topics. So, Barna is hopefully another tool you can put in your inbox. And so just simply hitting the subscribe button on our Barna. com website, and I'll be sure, as I mentioned, to pass along any data slides here that we mentioned. And put those. Jenni, you can add those to the show notes.
Speaker 2:Perfect, yeah, well for sure do that, John and Matt. Thank you so much. This was a fun conversation. I love this stuff and, of course, I'm always grateful for time to connect with you guys and keep learning together as we try to serve teams and leaders well. So thanks for your time, thanks for your investment in helping leaders be better so grateful.
Speaker 1:Our pleasure. Thanks for the opportunity.
Speaker 2:Well, guys, I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. I just am such a firm believer that workplace culture, the health of your team, the culture of your team, is one of the most important things that you can give time and energy to, and one of those considerations that Matt shared really spoke to that you know he talked about. I think it was consideration number two, where he talked about how we agree that culture matters but we don't have hooks, we don't have tangible ways to impact that culture. That, I think the way he said it was, cultures critical but lacks tangible investment or direction, and it reminded me of a stat that I stumbled upon a while back. It said that research says that a strong and healthy culture leads to greater employee engagement and more growth for your organization, and yet, while, 90% of leaders believe that an engagement strategy will have an impact on their success, only 25% of them actually have a plan. Right. I feel like that stat just completely reinforces what Matt shared with us that while we believe that employee engagement, workplace culture is important, we don't actually have a plan. We don't know how to build a healthy culture, and so I just want to remind you that is the work that my team and I at 4Sight love to do.
Speaker 2:Our two-day workshop really is designed to equip you to evaluate, design and develop the building blocks for an extraordinary culture, and you're going to leave with a step-by-step process and tools that enable you to create a strategy that allows your organization to thrive. And so, if you resonated with what you heard today, I want to encourage you to go to our website, get4sight. com that's G-E-T, the number four, s-i-g-h-t. com and just check out on the services tab. You're going to check out culture consulting and it's going to walk you through our framework of how we approach helping you think more strategically about your workplace culture, because you guys, clearly it matters and your workforce is shifting, it is changing, and how we think about culture is really important for the success of our teams. All right, I want to know what you thought about today's episode. You can connect with me on Instagram and Facebook at Get 4Sight, g-e-t the number four, s-i-g-h-t, or on LinkedIn at the 4Sight group, and personally I'm at Jenni Catron on all of those same channels.
Speaker 2:And then I would love it if you would share the episode with another leader who do you think would also benefit from the content you heard today, share it with them and then go leave that five star review. Let us know how we're doing. Give us some feedback so that we can keep serving you better. Guys, we are grateful for the privilege to partner with you in cultivating healthy leaders and building thriving teams. So thanks for listening today and keep leading well this week.