This week on the Lead Culture Podcast, we're honored to host Andi Andrew, the voice behind the Coffee with Andi podcast and the visionary author of "Braving Change."
Change, as Andi eloquently puts it, is not merely about confronting new challenges but about the spiritual passage that accompanies our journey. In this heartfelt exchange, we delve into the sacred cycles of growth, the art of grieving what's been lost, and the search for solace in the divine. Andi's insights on the importance of rest, recovery, and finding peace in God's presence during life's storms are a profound reminder of the strength within us all. We also tackle the topic of integrity in leadership, pondering how to honor our past, embrace transitions with gratitude, and maintain our core values, even amidst the whirlwind of change. Join us for a deep exploration of what it means to lead with an open heart and navigate the transformative tides of life with grace.
We need your help to get the Lead Culture podcasts in front of more leaders! There are three simple things you can do that truly help us:
This week on the Lead Culture Podcast, we're honored to host Andi Andrew, the voice behind the Coffee with Andi podcast and the visionary author of "Braving Change."
Change, as Andi eloquently puts it, is not merely about confronting new challenges but about the spiritual passage that accompanies our journey. In this heartfelt exchange, we delve into the sacred cycles of growth, the art of grieving what's been lost, and the search for solace in the divine. Andi's insights on the importance of rest, recovery, and finding peace in God's presence during life's storms are a profound reminder of the strength within us all. We also tackle the topic of integrity in leadership, pondering how to honor our past, embrace transitions with gratitude, and maintain our core values, even amidst the whirlwind of change. Join us for a deep exploration of what it means to lead with an open heart and navigate the transformative tides of life with grace.
We need your help to get the Lead Culture podcasts in front of more leaders! There are three simple things you can do that truly help us:
The Art of Leadership Network.
Speaker 2:Hey leaders, welcome to the Lead Culture Podcast, part of the Art of Leadership Network. I'm your host, Jenni Catron. Each week, I'll be your guide as we explore powerful insights and practical strategies to equip you with the tools you need to lead with clarity and confidence and build a thriving team. My mission is to be your trusted coach, empowering you to master the art of self-leadership so you'll learn to lead yourself well, so you can lead others better. Each week, we take a deep dive on a leadership or a culture topic. You'll hear stories from amazing guests and leaders like you who are committed to leading well. So let's keep learning on this leadership journey together.
Speaker 2:Friends, today I am joined by Andi Andrew. Andi is the host of the Coffee with Andi podcast and she's the author of four books, including She is Free, Fake or Follower and Friendship, It's Complicated. Andi is just a remarkable human who loves to see the reality of the gospel worked out in everyday lives. She is a leader who has co-pastored with her husband, just led some remarkable ministries in different organizations in her time and just has some really thoughtful perspective on her brand new book Braving Change.
Speaker 2:Release the past, welcome growth and trust where God is leading you and friends, today we really look into this especially through the lens of leadership. Talk about the control issues we often feel as leaders, especially when it comes to change. We talk about that season of fog that many of us have felt like, when you just feel like you can't see a way forward, and what we need to do in those moments. She talks about the power of discernment and why we just need wisdom to lead well and just how to grieve when change happens and it's unexpected or unpredictable or not what we hoped for. So, friends, I think you're going to love this conversation with my friend, Andi Andrew.
Speaker 2:Andi, welcome back to the podcast. You're a return guest, so this is super fun. I know I'm excited to dive into kind of catching up on your world. You and I were joking before we started recording that we record podcasts to actually catch up with each other. So I don't know what that says. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing, but it's one way we get to catch up.
Speaker 1:It says we're both running, we're both doing the thing, and then I had just have to write more books to be your friend and hang out some more, or you need to come visit me because we live in a really great place.
Speaker 2:I was going to say actually, I really do need to come visit. You guys are in Charleston, it is one of my favorite cities, and so, yeah, yeah, I need to make that happen, all right? Well, I want to dive right in, because you have a brand new book coming out. You're talking about the subject of change. In fact, it's called Braving Change and so I want to know why this topic, why change, what kind of made this top of the list for you in this season?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's crazy, is now felt like the right season to write it, because over the last I would say, six to seven years, it's been one of the greatest things God has been teaching me on. I didn't realize I had so many control issues when it came to change, because naturally I'm quite an adventurer. Like an adventurer, like I'm a person who I'm like, oh God, you want us to go over here, let's do it. But then there were certain things in my life where I was like, wow, I do not know how to let go. And I think in our lives we cry out for change, or like God, change me. Or we cry out even for the good changes, like I want to be married or have children or a new job. But then when those changes start to happen, it's often when we find out what's within us that we become like the Israelites who want to go back to their meat pots. That's what I find is there have been seasons where I'm like God, change my life, give me my promised land. He's like I'm trying to give it to you, but you keep asking for your meat pot, so I would like for you to walk with me and work with me. And so, like I said, it was about seven years ago.
Speaker 1:Paul had lost his mom to an inoperable brain tumor and my parents were in transition. They had been helping us pastor the church in New York City for eight years and felt like their time was done. They were moving to California and I just broke and the Lord reminded me. In that moment I was like God, I feel rejected, I feel alone, like we're losing our support network, and I was it's this whole story that I won't get into where I got into a fight with a washing machine and was sobbing on top of the washing machine and the Lord is like you know, this isn't about the washing machine Like you've been crying out for change, you're in the middle of it and I'm going to show you that I am your father, I am with you, and it was in that season that I really learned that transition can either teach us or take us out. We get to choose what we build our lives on.
Speaker 1:So that for me is, after all these years now pastoring in a transient space, releasing my first son to fly the nest, which I just am like how am I here already? Right, yeah, transitioning our church because it was the now time to do that. My husband taken a new role of pastoring pastors and leaders and me being able to work from wherever and planting ourselves at a new church, being under authority. I mean, you deal with your identity, you deal with so many things. So now, in this major transition we've been in Charleston for almost two years now it just felt like there's been enough learning under my belt that I would be able to have wisdom to give.
Speaker 1:But also it was just a beautiful process to write. Even in the middle of a new transition. I felt like God just shaped me even more. And so that's now. That's that. That's that's why now also, you know you may not be from the United States if you're listening or watching, but you know it's another election year and I just felt like this was a year for us, as believers, to remember what we build our lives on, because it's another year of change. So kingdoms will rise, kingdoms will fall, but what are we building our lives on? And that's also why the key scripture is Matthew seven. But I feel like I've just talked a lot, perfect.
Speaker 2:Over to you. So good, so good. You said in there, like like you blew by this really quickly, but you said transition can either teach us or take us out, like, and so you know again. As soon as I heard about this new project you were working on, I just thought about so many of the leaders that are listening, the leaders that I work with, and how much it just feels like it has been constant change that we haven't chosen, because I think, as I was even hearing you talk about this, you were saying we invite change all the time.
Speaker 2:I changed my hair color, I changed my clothes, I changed we were just talking fashion before we started. There are plenty of changes that we make by choice, but it's often the changes that are imposed upon us that create, at least in me, the most internal angst and frustration. We've all been through so much of that, so you're resonating with that. So speak to that a little bit of that nuance of because you mentioned the control issues too, and I do. I think it's not that we don't like change, I think it's which change is what we wrestle with right.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, and especially you think, even for business leaders and people, that there's all the force change that happened, and then it's like you're being forced to innovate again and trust in a way that you never have before.
Speaker 1:I think those are those moments where I mean there's a chapter in here that I didn't realize like I loved it.
Speaker 1:This is probably one of my favorite chapters, but it's about grieving, actually how we have to grieve what was to be able to accept and move forward into what is, and grief and gratitude often can go hand in hand.
Speaker 1:But when change is forced upon us and that can be anything, that can be in the business world, that can be in relationship, that can be betrayal, that can be loss of people in your life you never thought you would lose, and or it can be a death in the family it's like, wow, a lot of times we soldier on and I think in the last four years a lot of us had to. We had to keep moving forward, we had to keep innovating, we had to keep moving with the industry of life and what was happening in the church and all of the different things in our relationships that some of us didn't even take the time to grieve what was lost so that we could accept what is to be able to move forward. So maybe, if there's blockers in innovation or creation even in your life, take a moment and ask have I actually taken a moment to grieve what was lost so I can accept what is, so I can move forward and create again?
Speaker 2:Ooh, I hope everybody queued into that right there, because if there's like, how do you say that? If they're like, if we're creatively blocked or like not feeling innovation, like okay, what is it that I maybe haven't grieved to, let me move forward, that's so. Do you have an example of that, Andi, of maybe a way that's played out for you?
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. When we moved here, in essence, I didn't even realize that I was in this place, but I had an identity crisis. You know, I moved here. I had. There was a part of me and, of course, you never want to be in this place. But it's only sometimes the shifting and changing that causes you to recognize some of these idols that you've built in your life or things that you've held onto.
Speaker 1:So for me, it was like I'm a New York pastor. I've started this conference, I've written these books, I have this podcast that I do as traveling, and then God's like yeah, can you just like lay that all down? I'm like, are you being serious right now? Like I feel like we laid down a lot, just pastoring through 2020, let alone. You know everything, all the grief and the losses that we all hit.
Speaker 1:So move here and like, even with She is Free, my conference, I thought I was supposed to partner with my friend Irene and bring that to other places and bring it to different churches, and in that moment, what I didn't realize is that that season was over. So I didn't, I wasn't even listening. I was just building my own kingdom without listening to what God wanted me to build for His kingdom. So I remember a morning where I just sat there in His presence and I was like what do you want me to do with She is Free? And he said he said serve Sea Coast, which is the church I'm at. And I was like that's a very indirect answer. I would like you to tell me what you want me to do, with She is Free. But what he was doing is that he was like taking my face gently and saying look over here. You're looking here and I'm doing a new thing in this season. I'm gonna need you to let go of this.
Speaker 1:So what I had to do was pay attention and go oh, it served its purpose. So therefore, I let this part of me go, forgive me for my identity being connected to a movement that I loved. Sure, it is dead and gone. So now God opened my eyes to where you want me to serve, what you want me to do, and I'll tell you what. Like I won't even share right now, because I feel like God has just shown me a mountain.
Speaker 1:In this season and I've been here two years I feel emotional, but it's because there was so much laying down and grieving where he's like now, can you see the mountain I have for you to climb? There was fog for a reason because I needed you to sit still and be present to me and listen. But the fog is cleared and now you can see the way forward. But it's so often in the fog we're grasping, yes, and in all spaces of transition you're in the now, but not yet. You're here but you're not there, and so I think a lot of times you have to just pause and sit and listen for the plan, and a lot of us are not good at that.
Speaker 2:We're terrible at it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're really bad at it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're terrible at it. I'm sitting there thinking I can tell you the number of conversations I've had with leaders who are, you know they feel all this urgency and angst for the vision and the direction and what's next, you know, on behalf of their whole organization, ministry, et cetera. It's funny because I think we're so eager to have, like, okay, 2020 is done and over, like we're at 2024. And I think we're still feeling the aftershocks, like you know, in and so, like I think, about all the grand 2020 visions we all had, you know, the fun, fabulous play on words, right, and then they're completely obliterated.
Speaker 2:And so what I've seen with a lot of leaders that I'm working with is that they're cautious, they're like they're reserved in trying to cast a vision or even dream bigger, or see something on the horizon, you know, and so that some of that's a reaction to that, right, and then, but then some of it is, I think, actually just feeling like we're sitting in a fog, and then there's guilt around that, because I should have a vision, I'm a leader, I should know what we're doing next, right. So I kind of would love for you to just pause there a minute, because I think a lot of leaders are like, as soon as you said that there's fog for a reason, I think a whole lot of leaders just went for real Like is it okay that I was in the fog for a minute? So can you give any encouragement or insight into, for the leaders that are still sitting maybe in a little bit of a fog, like how to be patient with that or how to like maybe anticipate change in that? I don't want to overly like direct that.
Speaker 1:No, no, I think that's really good because even in process of the progression of how I wrote, this was kind of the progression of journey that God continues to take me on cyclically because, right, if change is constant, then there's cyclical growing and grieving and maneuvering and moving through. So I think for me, after realizing I had to let go and grieve losses and felt like I was sitting in a fog going what do you want me to do? It was actually a time to recover as well. It wasn't like I wasn't doing work, it wasn't like I wasn't still doing things, but it wasn't necessarily clear, the complete way forward. So I really talk about a time to recover and having a game plan. And when I say recover, I mean recover from the losses, recover from the shock, recover from like a little bit of like.
Speaker 1:I don't know if, like you said, I think that's so interesting I don't know if I want to cast a vision, because what if it all goes crashing to the ground? And did I hear wrong? Did I not see properly? Was I off? And ultimately, I think those fog moments of our life are the sweet moments where we actually get to sit still and trust God again and not move forward without Him, and so will we do it perfectly again? You know we'll make mistakes again as we cast vision, and part of our human heart is in the middle of that, because we are human. But that's how good our God is to redirect us. So in this season, if you find yourself in a fog, just go ahead and settle in to having peace and finding peace in His presence and going, God. I can't see right now, but you can see. And this really cool tool was given to me when it came to prayer and I just want to share this that may be helpful for some of you.
Speaker 1:Listening, feeling like you're in a fog is I had someone once say you know Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father interceding for you right now. Have you ever thought that when you wake up in the morning, just first thing ask Him hey, Jesus, what are you praying for me today? And like, how sweet is that that he's in intercession for you and for your life. So, even if you can't see the way forward. And then the other part of that too is like, well, for seated in heavenly places, God, can you bring me up? Like take me up so that I stop seeing so much in the present and you show me that where you're at work in my life, so that I remember your goodness and can move forward. So I don't know. I hope that's helpful.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that's super helpful. That's super helpful. I think just, you know, I just anticipate a lot of leaders just kind of resonated a little bit with what you shared there in that sense of just yeah, the sense of fog, the sense of I don't know quite how what to look. You know, I can't see, I can't see what's next. And back to our control issues, because leaders are very guilty of the control piece, right, yeah, you know, we, it makes us anxious, it, you know. And again, and we, in some ways we feel like we're failing or we're not doing what we need to do or what's expected of us as leaders. So I think there's just a lot there to kind of pay attention to and wrestle with. I'm curious, like, especially when it comes to change, do we avoid it? Do we resist it? You know, as you've been studying and writing on this, what, what are our patterns when it comes to change? I'll hack that for us a little more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I feel like there are. This is where we do have to pay attention to how we do respond to change, because some of us are avoiders and and and that is maybe I find often if we're avoiding changes because there's pain and change. So the pain of change is is good, it's like it's good pain because you're moving towards growing and I I mean I won't get too graphic, but that's why I talk about transition and labor, and if you ever have done natural labor or have heard of it, you know if you're, you know a male and you're like no, no, I have not.
Speaker 2:I don't want to know.
Speaker 1:And maybe you're like I don't know why she does that, We'll take all the drugs. But in natural labor, when you get to the point where the baby is almost in your arms, it's called transition. So you, you know there's a level of pain in each contraction that you can kind of handle. And then you get to the point of transition where they're literally on top of each other because it's almost time to bring the baby into the world. It's like the force of change is really taking place. And that's the moment in time, too, where you're like I can't, I can't do this, and you're yelling at your husband saying you did this to me. You're yelling at the midwife asking for the drugs, even though you're like I was joking, I don't want natural labor.
Speaker 1:But that happens in the spiritual too is that you're probably near the precipice of like watching something new be birthed in your life, when it feels like you can't do it anymore. But I think why we avoid change is because, like the intensity of what happens before you bring something new into the world, you know, as a business leader or as a leader in any sphere, you do have to plan. Yes, it is the Lord who determines our steps. There's a lot of planning, a lot of laboring, a lot of things that take place before the big whatever is birthed or you're moving forward into a new season. So if we're not careful and we're a natural avoider to pain, we will lean away from it instead of lean into the change.
Speaker 1:And then there are those people that I think they make changes in their lives because they're avoiding things that they need to face in their life. So it's like, does that make sense? So I think it's just a matter of of no, and there's all types of change too. So again, we talked about it a little bit. It's like I want to get married or I want to have a baby, but those still bring up difficulty in your life because it's not just about you anymore. So, I think, just paying attention to yourself and knowing your tendencies and then being able to lean into the right types of change for the season that you're in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's big, that's helpful, yeah, Okay. So I'm thinking, you know, for a lot of our leaders listening, you know they're navigating their own change right like, and we're in an interesting dynamic. I just did some some key notes this week about the pressure that, like leaders at different levels of an organization are feeling just because of how you just all the change. I mean there's just so much going on from the economy, you know, and just volatile yeah.
Speaker 2:And everything feels unpredictable, you know, and so, and we're seeing, you know, especially in the news and with corporations a lot of layoffs all of a sudden, where it was like you know, there was a season where it was like, you know, they didn't have enough workers to do all the jobs, and now all of a sudden it's like this other swing where there's so many layoffs. So there's just, you know, there's all these pieces that people are trying to make sense of. So you have leaders navigating their own change, right, like, okay, I had to make major budget cuts this year and that's pain, and I'm having to lead through that. I have, you know, I have lost key staff members and I'm having to try to figure that out, or I've had to make layoffs, or you know. So you start to define the things that leaders are feeling, whether in ministry or business.
Speaker 2:But then they're also having to support and walk alongside others, like on their team, that might be feeling change or transition. How do we do that? Right, Like what Million dollar question, Andi? Like how do we actually really support others through change is really the question I'm getting at, but with the recognition that, even if it's not in the workplace, even if it's just at home. Every one of us are dealing with our own sense of it and then trying to provide support for others. So I'm curious if you have just a little insight there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, the only insight I can give you are things that I have learned the hard way and from wisdom from others, and I think one thing that I learned along the way in those volatile seasons of leadership are, like, you really do have to put the oxygen mask on yourself first. So I think if you are struggling and feeling I feel overwhelmed with the change at work, I feel overwhelmed with the change, like trying to just be a present family member mother, father, spouse, whatever that looks like friend. And then there's all these people who need me now, like I did not train for this. What I trained for was to build a business, not to like shepherd people. You know, you're like rocking back and forth and everyone. It's like the mental health crisis, and then people are like, yeah, and so I think that, first and foremost, pay attention to your own rhythms. If you do not have an actual day of rest in your life, you will personally implode and you will not be helpful to anybody. So look at your rhythms and care for yourself, care for your family. If you've got one, make sure that you're making time, even if it's small amounts of time. You may have major things that you're carrying on your shoulder. So I understand everybody's fears look different, even my husband right now, with the business that he's got of his own business as well as now basically like the executive of this business within you know it's called Pastors Collective, working for Pastor Greg. He just realized, even in himself and he wouldn't mind me sharing this because he shared it on my podcast with me is when he had to have this vulnerable, honest moment with me, he's a he'll just go, go, go go and he'll care for people and he'll pick up everything and he knows how to make sure. I mean, he's just like a military leader. When he has a moment where he's like I'm not okay and something has to give, yeah, I'm like, all right, what do we need to shift? So pay attention to yourself.
Speaker 1:And then the other is I think in this season that we're in, this era that we're in on the planet is ministry or business leaders, whatever field you're in, we have to be so close and in the presence of God to have discernment. I think this is a season where all I would say to you on how to lead your people, on what to do, is this is a season to cry out to God for more discernment, to discern what is of God, what is human and what is straight from the pit of hell. That needs to go back where it is. So, number one, that we need the wisdom of Solomon, where God came to him in a dream and was like what can I give you? And he's like please give me wisdom to rule the people. We actually need. That. That's right. We have to stay humble and we have to just realize. I think, if these last four years have taught us anything is like well, we're not God, yeah Right, and we can't control anything. So, lord, give us divine strategy, even when it makes no sense.
Speaker 1:Let us make this change over here and higher and fire this person when I'm like that felt wrong, and then in five months time you're like, oh, like that's we need to just be so close. So I mean, I know that's not a silver bullet, but it's what I got for you.
Speaker 2:No, and I think you're so right. I think you know, a lot of times we just want an easy formula and you know, as, as Christian leaders, as Christ followers, it's like that, the gift and the beauty of discernment, and that that is something the you know, asking God for, that wisdom is just that's the thing, I mean, that's the, that's the access we have, that is just really unique and very special, and I think that's the thing that we rely on at last, at like, as our last resort sometimes, especially in leadership, you know well.
Speaker 1:Don't you think, though, that that is too like? Even when I watch my husband, who is more of a workhorse than I am, I work hard, but I know how to like shut off more than he does. Just personality wise, sure, but I think that's because, when you have a high sense of responsibility to and you're capable it you can just keep going you do and just paying attention to that and yourself and being like oh, I need to surrender, I need to take my hands off, I need to calm down.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, I feel like you're preaching to me today because I literally like I came off of just again a very full week and then I got to today and I was like, okay, I am on fumes, like I am like, did I know was? I was having a conversation with my assistant earlier today. We're, you know, reviewing the schedule and looking at all the things and, and I just said, I repeatedly underestimate the recovery time I need after a very full couple of weeks. Right, like I underestimate because I just expect myself to just keep going.
Speaker 1:I'm probably wired a bit more like your husband.
Speaker 2:Like, I'm like, but I can do it, I'll figure it out, it'll all be okay. And then all of a sudden it's like and no, you know yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, this is, can I give one other thing that I've done, even for myself, is cause I is that I need more margin than I think I do. So so just wherever you can put margin into your life and when I say margin, that can be like a day off after I run hard for two weeks, making sure that I'm not just back to business as usual but it's like I'm not doing anything on that Monday would normally I would, if you can, if you're like leading a business of employed and can like I'm obviously speaking to if you have that flexibility. But also within your own calendar, like I find on days like today where I'm doing more interviews is I do just need margin. I need a little bit of margin in between so I can take a breath and regroup. So just plan margin where you can and be kind to yourself. It's really important.
Speaker 2:That's really good, yeah, and we just don't. I mean, it's like we need people to give us permission for that. So, Andi, you just gave us permission for that, right, like you actually need it, you know? So we're not a bunch of robots. Okay, I'm running out of time, but I have two questions for you. You talk about the practice of practicing integrity and gratitude and change. Tell us about that, like integrity and gratitude and relationship to change. What's that all about?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So integrity and change, like I think about, oh man, okay, integrity and change is a huge one, especially pastoring and leading. So I'm gonna go from that perspective. But I know if you are a business leader you can pull the same thread in this. Is we so,
Speaker 1:even when we transitioned and planted our own church, what did it look like for us to have integrity and honor the leadership on our way out, when we were just being obedient to God? We were being radically obedient to God, but a lot of times what we do is we wanna throw and have our own PR campaign to make sure that everybody knows that we're doing the right thing, and they may not be Like we don't need to villainize people in transition and change. We just need to be obedient to God. And social media has made us weird in this, and that's because, like think about in 1995 or even the early 2000s, before Facebook and Instagram really exploded Like we just we were obedient, we made changes and we weren't running PR campaigns because the news was not covering our job change. Now we feel like big announcement, like I need to tell everyone everything that I'm doing and make sure that it sounds really squeaky clean so that I look good in this transition and change. Now, if God is asking you to share share I'm not saying don't, but what does integrity look like? And if there has been betrayal and hurt and pain, do all that you can on your end to walk in integrity before God, even though sometimes you don't wanna take the higher road, you wanna throw other people under the bus.
Speaker 1:I think, what does integrity look like? Now? I break that down in multiple different ways even having integrity in our emotions and how we process our hurt and pain and grief as we walk through, because we have to do that with integrity, so that we don't villainize someone, so that we do not start to bear false witness, and so those are all the things that we have to look at to have integrity and change. And, like I said, even as I pastored, I would watch people who knew that their time at our church was done and they left. Well, and there was no need for it to be dramatic. It was like, well, we care about the body of Christ, so let's not make this about ourselves. And then there were people that were like I need to make them look bad as I go out and make myself look good, and I was like well, good luck with that, because you have to answer to God for that at the end of your life.
Speaker 1:So I think that, like there's just, I'm like I don't know so yeah, that's so good, though, yeah yeah, yeah, and I know it's hard, especially when you are the one that's being villainized, right, right, that's really hard, and you know that it's a lie is how you really have to again be in the presence of God, to go. What do you want me to do here? What is wisdom here? And how do I walk with integrity and then gratitude? That, as well, is really important because, again, I said this a little bit earlier when I touched on grief grief and gratitude can go hand in hand. And if you don't wanna get stuck in a cycle of grief and the subtitle of the book is Release the Past, Welcome Growth and Trust, for God is Leading you it's very hard to release the past when you're stuck in grief and when you don't have gratitude for all that God has done and all that he is going to like even like, so you can trust in what he's going to do.
Speaker 1:So I think that those rhythms of gratitude were really important for me, especially for leaders. We love to grow. We don't wanna stay the same, we wanna get better. Often we can lack gratitude because we're constantly looking at how to grow and change and get better and do better, that we're like, oh, we just need to take a minute and go, God, thank you for how far you've brought me. My husband once said to me as I was like being really hard on myself. He said, Andi, we're not where we wanna be, but we're not where we used to be, and I think that's a sort of gratitude that we need to walk in in times of change, so I hope that's helpful.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, so, so, so helpful. I'm struck by the fact that we all have to be our own PR people in any kind of change, right? I mean, we know this, but, like you, do you think about it? It's like we want 20 years. You didn't need to think about that, you didn't need to broadcast it everywhere, just your immediate circle, and it was so simple. It was so simple, it was so simple. Yeah, that really stands out to me, but I love just the y ou're compelling us to really be integrous in that, in those moments, to really really be thoughtful about that. Okay, this is so good, Andi. You just like you just just poured into us in a really helpful and meaningful way. How can we find Braving Change? How do we stay connected to you? Yeah, Braving Change you can find.
Speaker 1:You can really get it anywhere Amazon, with my publisher's Baker Bookcast. You can go to my website, andiandrew. com, and we always giggle. It's Andi with an I, Andrew with no S on the end. There are many ways to spell it and all my stuff is on there, all my resources there. So those are the and that's my social media handles too is all at Andi Andrew. So, yeah, that's how you can find any of the things.
Speaker 2:Perfect, Andi. Thank you so much. Thanks for just your wisdom and your just heart to pour into leaders and and just call us back to what's true and so praying for you and the impact of this book, because I know it's a season where I think we're all fatigued by change and having a good guide for how to actually embrace change from a healthy perspective is so valuable, Gosh thank you that that was helpful for me.
Speaker 1:I'm holding on to that, even as I share this with people that were fatigued by change, so I hope that I can help people brave it well.
Speaker 2:Perfect, perfect, your gift. Thank you so, so much, my friend, so glad to connect with you. Thank you for having me. All right friends, I hope you got as much out of that as I did. Such a helpful conversation and really thoughtful perspective.
Speaker 2:I love Andi's heart around helping us see things from just a healthy, Godly perspective and especially when it comes to change and just how much change we have all navigated. Always right, leaders are always navigating change, but it just feels like it has been a lot Kind of that fatigue of change that we talked about at the end. So let me know what you thought of this week's episode. I encourage you, share it with a friend If this was helpful to you, or maybe you want to share it with your team. Send it to them and then talk about it together. Talk about that, those challenges you feel around the subject of change. Be sure to let us know what you thought, what was helpful.
Speaker 2:You can find us on Instagram and Facebook, at Get 4Sight, or on LinkedIn at The 4Sight Group. You can find me at Jenni Catron on all the socials as well, and I'm really grateful that you're here. Thanks for listening. I bumped into several of you in the last couple of weeks when I've been out speaking at different events, and I always enjoy hearing what you're learning, what you're processing as you listen to the podcast. So thanks for being on this journey with me. Keep leading well.