Lead Culture with Jenni Catron

220 | Creating a Culture of Clarity and Care with Ashley Warren and Jenni Catron

• Art of Leadership Network

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Join us in welcoming Ashley Warren, the passionate COO of Downs Books Incorporated, as we pull back the curtain on the art of fostering healthy team dynamics and cultivating a thriving work culture. We'll take you on a journey through our shared experiences, unearthing the joy and challenges of leading a team towards a unified vision. Ashley's insights, born out of her role in supporting Annie F. Downs and years of building healthy cultures, are a refreshing view into the heart and mind of a true team leader.

Ashley and Jenni dive headfirst into the complex world of team dynamics, providing a roadmap on how to strike a balance between a shared vision and the unique interplay of personalities within a team. We'll lend you our lenses, showing you the value of slowing down to truly appreciate the individuals within your team and the importance of understanding how the team is feeling. Together, we'll explore the delicate balance between transparency and accountability, and the powerful impact of setting clear expectations alongside regular check-ins.

Wrapping up our conversation, Ashley shares her growth journey as a leader, revealing valuable lessons she's picked up along the ride. She emphasizes the importance of understanding your team members on a personal level, a strategy that has helped her team reach their full potential.

About Ashley
Ashley Warren is the Chief Operating Officer of Downs Books, Inc., a media company based in Nashville, TN. Combining the communications, culture and team-building experience she gained as an educator and the Director of Employee Culture at a large multi-site church, she now leads the team that supports the work of author, speaker, podcaster Annie F. Downs. Ashley is passionate about creating a culture of clarity and care that allows every team member space to thrive.

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Jenni Catron:

Hey, friends, I'm your host, Jenni Catron, and this is the Lead Culture Podcast, where I coach you to lead yourself well so you can lead others better. My team and I at the 4sight Group are committed to building confident leaders, extraordinary teams and thriving cultures. Each week, we'll take a deep dive into a leadership or culture topic that will give you the tools you need to lead with clarity and confidence and build a thriving team. Now, friends, today you are getting to kind of sit in on two really dear friends having a just, thoughtful conversation around our heart for teams, our heart for building healthy teams. You're going to hear from my dear, dear friend, Ashley Warren. Ashley is the Chief Operating Officer of Downs Books Incorporated, a media company based in Nashville, tennessee, combining the communications culture and team building experience she gained as an educator and then the Director of Employee Culture at a large multi-site church. That's where we worked together. Ashley now leads the team that supports the work of author speaker, podcaster Annie F. Downs. I know, you all know Annie. Annie is a fan, longtime friend, a phenomenal leader and somebody you need to be listening to for sure. Now Ashley is passionate about creating a culture of clarity and care that allows every team member space to thrive, and that's what you're going to hear from our conversation today.

Jenni Catron:

I wanted to have Ashley on the podcast. You'll hear a bit of our backstory. We've worked together in a couple of different capacities. She was with us on the team at 4sight for a bit. We worked for eight or nine years together at a mega church in Nashville, and in those seasons we had such a unique opportunity to really shape culture together and learn together as we go.

Jenni Catron:

So much of the lead culture framework that I reference and that we do when we're working with organizations was really birthed in those years at the church in Nashville, and so Ashley was right there with me as we were figuring some of that out, and so you're going to hear us talk about some of those moments and those memories of just kind of finding our way through the importance of building healthy culture, healthy team, and you're going to love Ashley's heart. Her heart for the care of a team is none other, and so she just provides some valuable insight into how to think about the care of your team as a leader. So here's my conversation with my dear friend Ashley Warren Ash, how fun to have you back on the podcast. You were actually on the podcast away. It feels like a long time ago.

Ashley Warren:

It's been a little bit, it has been a long time ago. I'm so, I'm so honored to be here.

Jenni Catron:

Well, anytime you and I get time to catch up, like we we spent a lot of time pre recording like all the catch up on life and and all the things. But I but I love talking culture with you and I really was excited for the listeners to just kind of hear an update on where you are Cause I think when you were on the podcast last might have been when you were doing some work with us at foresight, doing some of the culture workshops with us, I think you're right. And then our dear friend Annie F Downs stole you and you joined her team as the chief operating officer, which I'm like, it's true, it was a good, it was a good move.

Ashley Warren:

Like selfishly, I like to keep you around, but that's a good move, one of the things you know I learned in in a season of transition and doing some freelance work and sitting kind of with a really beautiful opportunity to sit with two teams at once your team and Annie's team, kind of just having to come face to face with the self awareness that I'm built to be on one team and to plant myself and focus in support of one vision. And that, of course, involves letting go in some places that you know. I mean. What fun to have been involved in those years, at foresight and and knowing that neither organization was getting the best of me when I was feeling divided.

Jenni Catron:

So it was hard letting go.

Ashley Warren:

And also Look at us now, Jen.

Jenni Catron:

I mean that's a thing I talk to leaders all the time about is, you know, like, being open-handed with, like, of course we want to attract and retain the best people and build amazing teams, but there's also that recognition of seasons and you and I have had the privilege of working with each other in a couple of different seasons and now we just work with you in a little bit different capacity because, you know, again, annie's a great friend and we're champions of what you guys do and vice versa.

Jenni Catron:

And just being open-handed about recognizing that God moves people on in some seasons and just being confident that you know, as we as we follow, that like his faithfulness in that journey and, like you said, for you, that recognition and self-awareness of a, you know, being full-time on a team, giving that focused energy, is how you work best and that's absolutely true. And so like, for me it is such joy to watch you thrive and flourish and lead that team so well. So it's I mean I joke, but I fully like, believe that it's the right seat for you right now. So, thank you, tell everybody about your role at Annie F or it's Downs Books. Technically, yes, tell us about being chief operating officer at Downs Books.

Ashley Warren:

Yeah. So as the COO at Downs Books, we are a media company in support of Annie F Downs as an author, speaker and podcaster, among other things. She wears multiple hats this one and so she has been a published author for over a decade and just writes beautiful memoir type you know, faith-based books. And then she has, you know, an amazing podcast called that Sounds Fun. Yes, and then this year launched a second podcast called let's Read the Gospels, which is a really, really beautiful project to be a part of. And then she does live events and touring all over the place.

Ashley Warren:

We toured in June I got to go with her. It was so fun and important that the touch base with the people on the other side of our work getting a face-to-face time with them and getting to hear their stories and see what you know makes them come alive in a room together just priceless. So my day-to-day is serving the team that I'm just cuckoo about. We have an amazing team and then we work really closely. We are a small team, so we work really closely with the that Sounds Fun Network, which is a podcast network that Annie co-owns, and then we also work really closely with a management team who helps kind of broker deals and do negotiations and marketing strategy with us. So there's a lot of making sure that communication is staying high and clear. And then I mean, probably the thing that is closest to my heart is just making sure people have what they need to do, what they have been invited to do, to the very best of their ability.

Jenni Catron:

Yeah, I love that, love that. So you and I, you know we first connected when I worked at Crosspoint. You came on staff and I feel like together we kind of found our way in shaping staff culture, like I don't think like either one of us knew that was in our job title, but it was like I think there was a level of passion for both of us around the care of the team and knowing gosh, if we can steward the team well, the ability to achieve the mission just is amplified Right. And so I'm curious for you, like when did you kind of realize that passion for team culture? Because I think it kind of was a gradual aha for me. But you know, I don't know if that ever asked you that question specifically. I feel like I've always known you with an eye for the care of a team, but I'd be curious when you, when you feel like that developed for you.

Ashley Warren:

It's a great question, jenni, and I honestly, when I look at trying to trace it back, I think it actually had its genesis in my time as a classroom teacher. I was a high school teacher for several years before I came into ministry, until you invited me out of that classroom and onto the team with you at Crosspoint, so I've been guilty of stealing from a time or two.

Ashley Warren:

I call it an invitation, but I, you know, in that environment I had these four times a day. I had a new group of people who were under my care and supervision. We had very clear goals, thank you to the state curriculum. So our vision was preset and within that I got to like, look at this room full of 25, 30 ninth graders and be like, ok, here are the personality dynamics we've got going on, here are the challenges that we might be facing together. And then here are our goals and and kind of taking all of that into account, how do we together move this forward as close as we can to the goals without, you know, without losing the magic that is in the combination of all of these souls in the same place?

Ashley Warren:

Yeah, and so I think, because it was a fun puzzle, frustrating and challenging puzzle sometimes. But but to to know, like, ok, later in the day we're going to have to do things a little differently. It can be the same lesson, but because of the, the makeup of the class and the energy that they're bringing in, you know, my approach might need to change. Or you know, it's the difference between lights off and lights on, or whatever there are. There are just these discoveries to be made when a group of people is is put together in pursuit of a common goal. Yeah, and so mining for the mining for the magic within a group just fascinates me and I just I find it to be really, I mean, rewarding.

Ashley Warren:

Feels almost trite, but it is, it's just so rewarding to be able to look back and point their attention into how far we've come together. That's right. Look what we accomplished together. Yeah, and so there's just nothing like it, and so that's where it started. And then getting to, like you said, continue to discover and unearth and shape, and a group of people in pursuit of perhaps the highest vision and calling within the local church. Just so fun.

Jenni Catron:

Oh, so fun. There's something really special about that, I think. As much as I am such an independent person, like I think, in some ways, when I reflect on my journey, it's such a funny little surprise to see how my passion for teams has just like exponentially grown, because there's such joy in seeing a team work effectively together to achieve a mission, right, right, one of the ways that I sometimes will talk about culture is it's the stewardship of people in pursuit of the mission. Right, there's this and you define that right. The understanding of their gifts and their unique dynamics, and then that uniqueness of what happens when that group is together, like you know, and understanding that and nuancing your approach as a leader, all for the benefit of bringing out their best giftedness in alignment with what we're trying to achieve. Yeah, and it happens, it is magical, like it is. There's really just energizing and fulfilling in that. Yes, you know I, when I think back, because you know for the listeners, you and I got to work together.

Jenni Catron:

I think about eight or nine years, if I'm right. If I'm right, and I often credit you and I always I often tell a story about how you were one of those people in my life that really helped me slow down to see people. That's like one of those phrases I have to keep in front of myself because I'm such a I don't have to tell you this I'm such a driven, focused, make it happen, take action type of leader, and I would often be a bit of a bulldozer. Um, relationally, because of that Like I just you know, it was like I saw the opportunity and the task and the potential first, and then it would be like oh, and yet, like this group of people, how are they?

Jenni Catron:

How are you feeling about this? Right, and I feel like you. You often, I remember, and I might have like, like embellished the story in my mind since it happened, but there was I don't know what we were doing, but there was like a staff meeting that I think I was sharing some big new initiative that we were about to embark on. Like it was like guys, this is going to be amazing, we're going to do this thing and here's what it's going to require and like and it was a probably really overwhelming, but just sounded exciting to me and my visionary like you know, like conquer the next hill, kind of mindset.

Jenni Catron:

And I remember you and I were debriefing together in my office and you know I'm excited about it. I'm like, okay, ash, how do you think they felt? And you kind of paused and you were like well, in your very gracious way, you were like I think they see the vision, I think they get it, but, jen, I think they're a little tired. And I was like they're tired, like you know, and we've probably just done some other really big initiative, like you know that we wasn't even completely finished. And again, I don't remember the specifics, I just remember you said that and I think I kind of brushed it off. And then you walked out and at some point later I don't know how much time went by and I invited you back in and I was like, okay, wait, tell me more.

Jenni Catron:

Because you had that like awareness and sensitivity of what was happening with the team and it was such a valuable like counterpart to my drivenness as a leader and I just I've, like your voice rings in my head, or at least like what would Ashley do rings in my head because of your sensitivity to going how's the team? How's the team feeling? What's going on with them? What are they, you know, and what do I need to be aware of? And I think there are a lot of leaders struggle with that right, that a lot of leaders struggle to give time and attention to the care of their team, and so I would. I would love. First of all, it'd be fun to see if you ever remember that story, if I've completely embellished it, but we were like 20 like it where I just didn't hear you. But how would, how would you encourage leaders to slow down to see people Like what are some of the things you've learned around that? How would you coach leaders like me that sometimes can be too driven? I'd love to just hear your response to that.

Ashley Warren:

Sure, it's well. I do remember and I do think we probably had a few moments like that, just of, hey, I'm sensing that maybe, maybe this feels overwhelming, or that I think they've got some stuff going on personal in their personal lives that might be, you know, causing them to feel a little distracted or divided. And what I would say is like leaders like me need leaders like you, the same as leaders like you need leaders like me. And so it is just backing up to remember that we all have a place on the team the driven visionaries we would never get anywhere without you, we would never accomplish anything and the more attuned, relational leaders, like we don't want to get to any stated goal at the expense of our team and their well-being. And so it's bringing, you know, bringing the strengths together.

Ashley Warren:

And I mean you teach this so well, jenni, and I've learned so much from you about self-leadership and about being aware of you know what is it, what's my bent, what's my strength in this area? What am I, you know, needing to work on? And then, sometimes the needing to work on is who do I need to invite in? You know, whose voice do I need to have to debrief with? Like you said because your wisdom was well, maybe I'm blowing past this. I need to ask, and the fact that you, you know, did pause to ask the question is is the important part of that conversation, Because then, once you pause and ask the question, I have a rhythm that I work through a lot right now. It's just pause, pray, proceed. It's just when we pause, it gives time for the questions to rise up.

Jenni Catron:

You know okay, who do I?

Ashley Warren:

need to check on what's the. I believe you had me read the book, the question behind the question.

Jenni Catron:

You know-.

Ashley Warren:

Before I explore what the answer is, where's the question coming from?

Jenni Catron:

What's underneath this, you know?

Ashley Warren:

is it a performance issue with one of my team members that is, you know, kind of indicating to me that something's off, that I need to check on them about? Is it a personality thing that their personality seems to have changed in a way that you know, is kind of that little flag raising like, oh, let's just check in? And so I think my encouragement is not like, hey, try to be someone you're not, it's just do take that pause, pray through and ask the question and then kind of trust what comes up or whoever you've invited into the conversation, you know, go ahead and take a step toward what they're sensing and see what happens.

Jenni Catron:

Yeah, that's really good. I do think, like some of my best growth as a leader occurred especially around culture and team dynamics, because of the counterbalance of your voice, like, again, just that power of and I do think that's really valuable to teams as they're thinking about organizational culture and how critical it is to be thinking about how do we really steward employees well, especially in just the kind of the volatility of the employment dynamic these days. It's like you know it is a both and and. Recognizing okay, which end of that spectrum do you tend to lean on, and then having somebody you really trust to be around you, helping you discern the places where you are more likely to have blind spots.

Jenni Catron:

You know, I'd like to believe I'm a little more aware, but I know under pressure I'm not Like I know that like the more intense the pace, the more that's going on. Then I tend to lean back into that driven, figure it out, make it happen, and I will. I have to like actively coach myself, slow down to see people ask the questions, bring in perspective, so that I'm serving the team, serving the team better ultimately. Ashley, you talk a lot about creating a culture of clarity and care and I love those two words, so I'd love for you to talk about what does that mean to you when you're talking about team culture, those two words clarity and care expand on that for us.

Ashley Warren:

Sure, well, I know that probably no one is listening, that hasn't kind of heard the idea that clarity is kindness, that keeping like that it's one of the leaders like. Highest opportunities, I think, for our teams is to bring clarity to the assignment, to the vision that we're working toward and to the values that inform how we're gonna work together. And it really is. We can't go anywhere together if we don't see where we are clearly and then see the direction for where we want to go. A little plug for coaching in general Annie and I are working with a coach right now who took our team, just as a, for instance, took our team through and exercised the summer.

Ashley Warren:

That has been super helpful for us and it's because we had three kind of finish lines coming up for us that we knew in advance, like we've got a break early in July but we've got a big tour, a big project going on prior to that. And then we had a month that we had some other goals in place and looking at those three finish lines and asking, okay, what needs to be done by when? Who's going to do it? And keeping that kind of in front of our team helped us keep communication high. So, particularly because we were going to be in different places than we typically are.

Ashley Warren:

That disruption to our norm invited a different type of communication and so, where we would normally not necessarily not necessarily have a daily check-in, we instituted a daily check-in for the time that we were going to be specifically disrupted by geography, and it was so clarifying. It was a quick question. It was like hey, what are your kind of three big rocks that have to happen today and what do you need from anybody else to get them done? That's it. Two questions.

Ashley Warren:

What are your? How are you going to know today's a success? If these three things happen, good day. And then, truly, as a, if we rely on each other, as teammates, and we can't give and take, if we can't ask and receive, then what are we even doing? So it was a sweet exercise and really revelatory for us in how we want to move forward even into the fall.

Ashley Warren:

You just based on those two little daily questions, and so bringing clarity does really allow us to work together better, because we know what we need, we know what we have to give, we know what margin exists, and so that clarity piece is only as good though, as the care, because if we're clear but not not checking on our people as entire human beings who bring their emotional, mental, physical and spiritual selves to their work, then we're neglecting part of our opportunity as their leaders to serve them beyond the immediate vision, because the real real is that we're not likely to be on the exact same team forever, and so when they're no longer under our leadership, will they be better emotionally, mentally, physically, spiritually because of their time on our team.

Ashley Warren:

That's an invitation I take really seriously, and so praying for our team members, but then also knowing them, knowing their strengths, what makes them tick, what motivates them, what do they love to do when they're free time, and then creating our cultures around not just what matters to us as an organization, but around what serves us as a team too, that's huge.

Jenni Catron:

Yeah, what are some other things, ash, that you guys do regularly that help shape that culture? For you guys like that really help reinforce that culture of clarity and care? Like, are there other rhythms that are just kind of part of your routine?

Ashley Warren:

Well, again, things that I learned from you and from working with you, and then things that Annie really intuitively leads as a strong just she Hang on, I'm going to try to say this better. So there are things that I learned from you and from my time working with you and then kind of combining those with the way that Annie so intuitively leads our team, that our team values, our kind of core values, the mantras that are on the walls in our office our work hard, play hard, rest hard, pray hard and they are simple statements that do guide us. Now, obviously there are some kind of driving factors within each of those, but when we think about those values, when we think about the like, we work hard. So we were in in-person culture by and large. So we show up on time and we stay until the job's done, and often that means we find ourselves eating lunch around the table together, and so there are opportunities for knowing each other because of the proximity, because of the time spent together, and so the expectations clear we're here and we're here on time and we stay until we're done. But then the care comes in with the opportunity to have the hallway conversations. It's not so much hallway as much as we're kind of in a constant conversation.

Ashley Warren:

We're a loud team, we kind of yell from office to office and it's fun and informal, but a couple of other things that we do to reinforce that. I mean we do have weekly rhythms with our staff meetings and with just the accountability of keeping things visible. That's another one of the exercises that our coach has taken us through. Everybody needs coach. That's the plug. Everybody needs coach. It is true. It is true.

Ashley Warren:

One of the things that our coach has talked with us about is he's like everybody knows about smart goals. Have you ever heard about fast goals? And I was like no, tell me more. And he talks about it's an acronym that refers to Frequently Reviewed, ambitious, specific and Transparent and so frequently reviewed, meaning we go over them at staff meeting every week or in our one-on-one meetings or, as the case may be, ambitious being. We're going to go for it, we're going to try some things. Specific is one that is pretty self-explanatory, but then the transparent part is where we keep the conversation going about. Hey, I'm struggling with this part. Can we meet and talk about this, or does?

Ashley Warren:

anybody have any ideas about such and such or hey, I'm not going to hit this deadline, but it's because my attention has been diverted over here. I just want to make sure you guys know, and so, that transparency is a real asset in keeping the clarity high. But it also helps us help each other.

Jenni Catron:

Yeah, I love that Kind of gives a fresh. You know we've all heard the smart goal thing, but it kind of gives that fresh way to think about the goal process.

Ashley Warren:

Yes, and I will say I haven't actually finished the book, but it comes from Steve Preta and Gregory Cleary's book Pinnacle. So I can't fully fully plug it because, like I said, I haven't finished it. But so far, very helpful. So good, I love it.

Jenni Catron:

I love it.

Ashley Warren:

Absolutely. That's good. When I think about what else we do for care, it's, there's fun built in we're, we're. I mean it's part of the brand, it's. It's part of what we do as a company and you know. And so we go to ball games together and we make sure that we have time scheduled outside of work, time to to just be and be together and be doing something fun. And also we take breaks. So we do actually rest hard, we. We take a break in the summer and in the winter, in addition to regular PTO. You know that our teams can take on their own and and then we do summer hours where we can try to actually access the sunshine at some point.

Jenni Catron:

Nice.

Ashley Warren:

And then we can come out of here a little bit early or or, you know, at whatever the case may be, again looking to serve our, our team, well right now, as whole humans, and set them up. That whenever I mean God forbid that it happens anytime soon but whenever we are not on a team together that we are all better for having been in this place together, that's really good.

Jenni Catron:

That's really good, ash. This is so, so helpful and I just love hearing your approach and heart for caring for the team. What final thought or encouragement would you leave to the listeners, the leaders that are listening going? Okay gosh, I know there's work we need to do in our culture. How would you encourage them? It doesn't have to all be done at once.

Ashley Warren:

Yes, identify one step you'd like to take and just take it. It's okay to take it clumsy, it's okay to try something and decide you need a different iteration the next time, but what the people that have been entrusted to your leadership will remember is that you saw them and that you cared, and that care is not always a touchy-feely, emotional type of care. That care is also hey, I see something in you and I want to encourage you toward growth in that area. Or there are avenues of care that take place best when we know our people, and so that's the real opportunity, I think, is do the discovery work, dig in to understand who they are, what makes them tick, what they're amazing at, the areas they need to grow. Be the biggest student of who it is relating, so that you can take them somewhere great.

Jenni Catron:

All right, friends, did that get you thinking Like, were you a little convicted about the care side of things? Maybe you get that and that comes naturally for you. You heard me share how that is like the side of my development as a leader that I've really had to grow in and Ashley was such a key part of my growth as a leader in that, and so I hope that was helpful and just helped you see how a leader is doing it in the trenches, like Ashley's in the work, leading a team actively day to day. So she is actually in the work and wrestling through all the complexities of a fast-growing organization and maintaining the healthy culture of a team. So I hope that was helpful to you.

Jenni Catron:

If it was, share it, pass it along, tell somebody else about it that you think might be inspired by it, and then let us know what you thought. Email me at podcast at get4sight. com. Let me know what you want to hear more of, let me know what you want to hear less of, let me know what's most helpful to you, because ultimately we want the podcast to be a place where you are equipped to keep learning and growing and leading well. So again, if it was helpful, share it, rate it, review it, do all those fun things because they help a lot and then, in the meantime, keep leading well.