272 | Master Leadership Transitions: Inspire Change with Empathy!

In this episode, Jenni Catron and Steve Carter explore the journey of leadership, focusing on the importance of self-leadership, healthy culture, and the transformative power of grief and healing. Steve shares his transition into a new role at Christ Church, reflecting on his past experiences and the lessons learned during a challenging desert season. The discussion emphasizes the significance of empathy, connection, and the shift in perspective that comes from navigating difficult times, ultimately leading to a renewed sense of purpose and community.

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Transcript

Jenni Catron (00:00.0)
Hey, leaders, welcome to the Lead Culture Podcast, part of the Art of Leadership Network. I'm your host, Jenny Catron, CEO of the 4Sight Group. We're a company dedicated to helping leaders develop thriving teams. Each week, I'll be your guide as we explore practical strategies to equip you with the tools you need to lead with clarity, confidence, and build unstoppable momentum in your organization. 

Jenni Catron (00:31.922)
My mission is to be your trusted coach, empowering you to master the art of self leadership. So you'll learn to lead yourself well, so you can lead others better. Each week, we take a deep dive on a leadership or culture topic. You'll hear stories from amazing guests and leaders like you who are committed to leading well. So let's dive in and keep learning on this leadership journey together. 

Jenni Catron (01:00.908)
Well, friends, thanks for joining me today. I have a great guest for us, but before we get to that, I want to make sure you are aware of the Culture Matters Summit, which is coming up on January 23rd. It's hard to believe January is just around the corner, but on January 23rd, 2025, I'm going to host the Culture Matters Summit. This is an online event that is designed to help equip you to unlock your team's potential with a culture strategy that works. 

Jenni Catron (01:31.146)
I want you to join 3,000 culture-focused leaders at the Culture Matters Summit. It's a one-day, high-impact virtual event to equip you with the strategies and insights needed to make culture your competitive advantage. While 90 % of leaders believe culture is essential, less than 25 % of them have a plan to shape it intentionally. And that's what I want to help you do, kicking off the new year. 

Jenni Catron (01:59.026)
This summit is your guide to creating a thriving purpose driven team ready to overcome any challenge. I'm going to be joined by leadership experts from organizations like Barna, Belay, Janaris, Clever Marketing, Mark Miller from Lead Today, a former Chick-fil-A executive is going to join us. Nona Jones is joining us and we will share proven strategies from our culture journeys to help you build 

Jenni Catron (02:27.756)
and unstoppable team. This is your opportunity to move beyond the why of culture and discover how to create clarity and purpose for your team today. So step into 2025 equipped to lead with clarity, direction and purpose. So friends, it is a free event and I want you to register and book the afternoon for your entire team. It's going to be from 1 to 4 PM central time zone. 

Jenni Catron (02:55.312)
and that's on January 23rd. So go to culturematterssummit.com and you can get registered there. Again, register for free, culturematterssummit.com. Register your entire team and come together to learn and keep growing about how to make your culture truly unstoppable. All right, friends, today on this episode, I am joined by Steve Carter. Now, Steve is one of those leaders that I have so deeply respected for years. 

Jenni Catron (03:24.688)
And we just have not had a lot of time to connect. You're gonna hear that as we chat. Just the opportunity of somebody who I deeply respect. We have had somewhat similar journeys in some of the leadership environments we've been in. And so I have admired how he has handled some of the challenges and bumps and bruises of ministry leadership in particular. He is just a gracious, kind, thoughtful soul who brings so much insight and wisdom. 

Jenni Catron (03:54.12)
If you are familiar with Steve, he is the bestselling author of the book, The Thing Behind, Beneath the Thing, a book about learning to allow God to heal our triggers, insecurities, and past wounds so we can experience spiritual health and wholeness. He is also the host of Craft and Character, a preaching podcast devoted to empowering pastors and communicators who want to work on their craft while learning to lead with character. I love that so much, and it so embodies who Steve is. 

Jenni Catron (04:24.116)
that heart for being excellent at your craft, at your work, but leading with character. And Steve is in the middle of a transition. just transitioned into a new role. You're gonna hear about that today. We go into lots of just really helpful insights. What does achieving look like that isn't ambitious, right? Like we have that conversation because again, I think he and I share a lot of similarities in how we're wired. 

Jenni Catron (04:51.326)
And so I just found that really, really helpful. So friends, here is my conversation with Steve Carter. 

Jenni Catron (00:02.14)
Well, Steve, thank you so much for joining me. I feel like our conversation is so overdue.

Stevecarter (00:07.61)
Jenny, this has been a long time coming. I feel like so many places I go, people are always like, man, I just had this conversation with Jenny or I just had this chance where she was like, pouring into me. it's amazing to have this chance to connect. And so thanks for having me. Yeah.

Jenni Catron (00:25.286)
to catch up. Well, likewise, I have such respect for you and a leader that I've admired from afar. And we've bumped into each other and crossed paths here and there and have so many mutual friends. But I just really am grateful for the journey you've been on as a leader. I know that it has not always been the smoothest or easiest journeys of leadership. But what I love so much is your heart for just fighting for health as a leader. I think that's probably one of the things I've observed from afar.

is just that deep commitment to, think you use the word transformation a lot of just like, you know, I was listening to your podcast recently with Ruth Haley Barton, who is one of my all time favorite authors. She has influenced me in such profound ways and just your heart for the health of the leader and the listeners to the lead culture podcast know that my one of my axioms is lead yourself well to lead others better, that self leadership is so core to healthy leadership. So

I'm really grateful that we're gonna be able to hear from you today. And I'd love for you maybe start out with, you're actually stepping into a brand new role, senior leader, senior pastor or lead pastor, not sure what the exact title is. I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about that and maybe what your perspective is on leadership, even stepping into something new in this season. So maybe give us context for today and then we'll back up a little bit.

Stevecarter (01:48.826)
Perfect. So I live in Chicago, like right outside Chicago, and there has been this historic church in greater Chicagoland called Christ Church. And there's a few different Christ churches. They're not connected, they all are really great churches. But this is Christ Church of Oakbrook, and they have a campus in Butterfield. But they have had two pastors in 60 years.

Yeah, and so you talk about a healthy culture, stability, just every year, just kind of working to love the city and their kind of vision is following Jesus in a complex world. And so I've known of my predecessor and...

Dan Meyer, he's been the chair of Fuller Seminary. I he's just an incredible high character, great leader. And when everything actually went down at Willow, he was someone who was a dear friend and mentor that really helped me process because I just needed someone to think, who could think at a higher level, who could give me some sage advice. And so we've just been able to stay kind of

Jenni Catron (03:00.764)
sure.

Stevecarter (03:09.508)
close together over the last number of years. And when I heard about this opportunity, it just as I looked at the profile of the role, I was like, my goodness, if I could be the third pastor and be able to finish my career here, that would be an incredible gift. So that's what I do. I'm lead pastor elect. And then at the end of January, 2025, I'll step in as the new lead pastor at Christchurch, which thanks be to God, I can't wait.

Jenni Catron (03:25.766)
gift.

Jenni Catron (03:39.74)
That's amazing. That's amazing. The history there, like you said, two pastors in 60 years, like that legacy of faithfulness stands out, right? So profound, because we don't see that that frequently anymore. And you mentioned like healthy culture and that. What are you noticing already? Just, you know, because obviously you've spent some time learning the church and spending time with them. And what...

What excites you about the environment you're stepping into, that culture, that team, the congregation?

Stevecarter (04:13.422)
Well, I think multiple facets. One is I love how process oriented and intentional this church is towards the things that matter to them, spiritual formation. You know, they have a classic worship service, which feels like the Chicago Symphony meets an incredible choir in this beautiful sanctuary. And then they have this

Jenni Catron (04:38.833)
Wow.

Stevecarter (04:41.548)
auditorium where they do contemporary and, and it feels more familiar to me, but there is something about how they, are really trying to do this kind of third way. and it's tricky. It's tricky in today's polarized world to kind of talk about the tension, that creative tension, you know, it's like God's sovereignty and human responsibility. And some places will just spend so much time on one.

Jenni Catron (05:07.558)
right?

Stevecarter (05:10.922)
or the other, but when you hold them in tension, there's something that happens in our formation. And so that's really, really great. I will tell you this, Jenny, I think you'll love this. I feel so spoiled in this right now. And again, I know I'm five days on the job, so there's a honeymoon phase right now. But my predecessor is doing a sermon series.

Jenni Catron (05:29.936)
Right?

Stevecarter (05:37.934)
from now till the time he transitions called notes at the door. And what he's doing is he's basically teaching the congregation the values of this place and then also sharing his experience. For instance, this past weekend, the whole teach was that we have to keep renovating and that's part of spiritual formation is that we renovate. But that means we have to be open to change.

Jenni Catron (06:07.324)
Sure.

Stevecarter (06:07.34)
And then if it's not just us that are open to change, it's also this church and Steve is going to change this place. And I want you to know I support it because if he doesn't, we are going to miss opportunities to reach. And I'm sitting here going, this guy is like putting out this welcome mat and putting all of his chips on the table to say, I believe in this guy. I know this guy. I'm excited. And it's that kind of

Jenni Catron (06:23.388)
Wow.

Jenni Catron (06:31.9)
Yeah.

Stevecarter (06:37.636)
foresight that kind of process to say I love this church so much and I Want to set you up, but I also want to set Steve up well, and so that's been really a gift really a gift

Jenni Catron (06:38.638)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jenni Catron (06:52.06)
for sure. I mean, goodness gracious, just in what you described him like what a masterclass in in just healthy leadership transition in, you know, passing the torch to you, reminding the congregation of, hey, here's what we're about. Here's who we are. Here's what we, you know, commit to. But here's how you know, here's how we follow Steve in the next season is that he is going to lead change. And that's part of who we are. Like, I mean, that is absolutely brilliant.

Stevecarter (07:21.764)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. No, it's, and again, I think that's a testament to the culture, you know, because the onboarding, the kind of, I mean, they do a staff break on Thursdays at 10 a.m. and it's just to hang out as a staff and people share like stories. And my first staff break,

Jenni Catron (07:22.106)
And what a gift, yeah, for you as the incoming leader.

Jenni Catron (07:29.594)
Sure.

Jenni Catron (07:39.796)
I love it.

Stevecarter (07:44.472)
that because I typically only ever wear black, they all dressed up in black and they played Johnny Cash. And I'm like, there's just like little things of just like, are, you are welcome here. We just, and I, I, there's something about that, that just, there's a playfulness, but then they, they love to get to work, which I think is really beautiful.

Jenni Catron (07:48.942)
You

Jenni Catron (07:56.006)
That's so good.

Jenni Catron (08:03.652)
Yeah, there's, my gosh, this is going to be so fun. I'm probably going to have to some sidebar conversations with you as you keep digging in. But you're right. I mean, again, when you see that kind of longevity, it's a hint that there's healthy culture, you know, that's shaped the organization. And those are fun, like those fun, playful things. I love the staff break thing because we need those moments of connection and fun. And also that rootedness in our mission and our values and, you know, and reminding people and calling people to that.

Stevecarter (08:08.48)
See you.

Jenni Catron (08:33.43)
It's just really powerful. I can't wait to see how this season plays out for you and just this opportunity for you as a leader. But I'd love for you to take our listeners back. You referenced, you know, when things happen at Willow, which I think some of our listeners will know that, some of them won't. But you've had a few, I mean, you literally moved to the desert for a season. Like you've had a desert season. I know you've had, you know, some wonderful opportunities in the more recent past too.

But would you paint for our listeners just a picture of what the leadership journey has looked like for you? because I also want to get to the new book you've written, which I think is really powerful. But I'd love for our listeners just to have a little picture of what your journeys look like.

Stevecarter (09:18.606)
Yeah, so grew up in Southern California, didn't grow up in a Christian home, but went to a Christian school that had a Christian church connected to it. Graduated. And while I was in college, my dad came to faith and felt like God called him to sell everything and move to Grand Rapids, Michigan to restore a relationship with his folks. And so it was my 19th birthday. I went with him.

And my mom and that was right when a church called Mars Hill in Grand Rapids was beginning and so I kind of got in on the ground floor of that and the founding pastor Yes, yes, Yeah, so so and then the founding pastor became like a mentor of mine I lived in his basement for a year and learned so much about the art of communication

Jenni Catron (09:56.892)
I don't even think I knew that, Steve. How did I miss that part of the story? That makes so much sense. Okay. Yeah, that's great.

Stevecarter (10:15.148)
And I stayed for seven years at Mars Hill, kind of overseeing cradle to college, being a part of the teaching team. Then I went to Rock Harbor. So moved back to Southern California and Rock Harbor was an incredible place. feel like my Trinity before that was probably Father, Son, Holy Bible. And I feel like at Rock Harbor, I learned about the Holy Spirit and just

how to engage with the presence of God. And while I was at Mars Hill, Bill Heibel's son-in-law and daughter were on staff. And so I got to know him and he just is a consummate coach and wanted to, he knew I wanted to be a senior pastor someday. So he just would pepper me with questions and let me ask him questions during the summer break when he was vacationing in Michigan.

He called me one day and just said, hey, I've heard you say that you've been looking for this, this and this. And I just want to tell you, I'm here to offer you this, this and this. So give me one reason why you'd say no. And I was like, I need to talk to my wife. But, but yes, yeah. But I ended up going through a process and moving out there. And, and honestly, like my first one on one, I kind of got brought into the succession process and

Jenni Catron (11:24.252)
That's a good reason.

Stevecarter (11:41.59)
And so that was a really kind of interesting run. I thought I was going there to be the director of evangelism and a teacher at large. And then it quickly kind of turned into a massive development opportunity. I grew, I grew like a weed at that place. And I think what's really interesting about Mars Hill is I learned a compelling why. And if you think about Simon Sinek language, like just the like,

Jenni Catron (12:07.548)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Stevecarter (12:12.167)
the beauty of what the church can be. At Rock Harbor, I learned a compelling how. How ministry's done, how ministry looks, how it feels when it's empowered by the Spirit. And it will have I learned just the power of what the local church can do with resources, with leaders, with healthy ministries. And so it's been really fascinating to almost take the best parts of these three and going, man,

Jenni Catron (12:40.06)
That's right. Yeah.

Stevecarter (12:41.134)
to be at a place where I could have a compelling why, how, and what, and the power of what could happen in a local church. And so I would say I was at Willow for six years, and I have 2,400 great, incredible stories and two dozen hard ones. And one of the hard ones just is that stories...

Jenni Catron (12:44.635)
Mm-hmm.

Stevecarter (13:08.462)
broke in newspapers and blog posts about my mentor and I ended up stepping down and resigning and standing with the women. And that kind of led me to realize I can't live two miles from this church because it was my dream job. And I felt like the Lord really calling our family. He woke me up one night and just said, go to the desert and wait for instructions. And I thought it was more metaphorical.

Jenni Catron (13:23.43)
Sure. Yeah.

Jenni Catron (13:34.0)
Wow. Right? Yeah.

Stevecarter (13:36.606)
And I grabbed my journal and just simply wrote, you can't achieve your way out of this, but you can grieve. You can only grieve your way through it. And Jenny, I knew how to achieve. I knew how to set goals and attack and go after it. I did not know how to grieve. And so my family and I, moved to the desert for four plus years and it was a chance just to, to heal. Because I knew if I, stepped into a new role, there was going to be a good chance that I transferred that

Jenni Catron (13:46.844)
Totally.

Stevecarter (14:05.71)
distrust or betrayal or pain onto somebody else. And I just, wanted to just trust God and that God would heal us, heal our family. And that the best wasn't in the rear view mirror, that God was going to somehow use this in a beautiful way. And six years later, I can say with great confidence, he truly, truly has. And so, so yeah.

Jenni Catron (14:07.036)
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jenni Catron (14:32.156)
It is. Was that hard to believe that the best wasn't in the rear view mirror? Right? I mean, because I think I've heard you say, are you a fellow Enneagram 3? That achiever nature, I know it backwards and forwards, that is so me. And when you're a part of so many significant ministry opportunities and then just the unexpected

Stevecarter (14:38.362)
100%.

Stevecarter (14:44.11)
Yes. Yes.

Jenni Catron (15:01.324)
loss. Like you said, it was your dream job. It was what you envisioned for your future, I'm sure. I'm so struck by moving literally to the desert, being there for four plus years, and that achiever in you submitting to what God needed to do in that season.

I'm like, I don't know if I could do it. Right? So tell us a little bit about, you wrote a book called Grieve, Breathe, Receive, Finding a Faith Strong Enough to Hold Us. And those three words, grieve, breathe, and receive, feel pretty significant. So maybe tell us a little bit about that, because I'm sure that was all a part of that journey for you.

Stevecarter (15:35.866)
Yeah.

Stevecarter (15:54.916)
Yeah, so the day after I resigned, and so I resigned on a Sunday, allegations, new allegations had come out in the New York Times and I just couldn't go on stage and play church. I just felt like we have to acknowledge the sin and the pain and the brokenness. And so many didn't want to address it. And I just said, I can't. And so,

I drove to Madison and midway through, called my, my family was with me in the car. I pulled off the side of the road and I called my dad and told him I was resigning and I'll never forget his words. He just said, this is hard. I'm proud of you. And honestly, I've never been more proud of you and you're doing the right thing. And that was, that was helpful for me. And so I hit send on a blog post and resigned.

And then I was like, I don't have a job. don't, I, know, like it just like, I don't, what am I gonna do? Like, I don't, I don't, I don't know. And the next morning I woke up at like 4 45 AM and, you know, cortisol to the max. And I just started walking around and, there's just been moments where I just have begged God for a word. Like I just need something through scripture, a song, conversation, just, just help me. And I heard nothing.

Jenni Catron (16:58.842)
Right, right, right, right. What am I gonna do?

Stevecarter (17:23.738)
And so I kept walking and I sat outside the Capitol building. It was probably about five, five 30 in the morning in Madison, Wisconsin. And I just, I begged God again. And, and I, I felt like I heard these three words, grieve, breathe, receive. And, and I remember like just pulling out my journal, writing them down and, I went to a donut shop and, and I just wrote down, I'm going to have to grieve. is grieve what I thought it was going to be.

and grieve how key people let me down. And I'm gonna have to breathe in new mercies that are new each morning and exhale any form of bitterness and unforgiveness and resentment. And I'm gonna have to receive what I need to learn, receive if there's anything I need to own and receive who Christ wants me to become because of this situation. And that became this mantra for me as we moved to the desert a few months later. This is just

almost in God's kindness gave me these three words to just, we're going to learn, just to focus in on. And then those three words became connected. I would wake up most mornings and just hike and read a bunch of the desert mothers and fathers, because Eugene Peterson said, you know, all theology is rooted in geography. And so let where you live shape how you understand the character of God. And so I read all these desert mothers and fathers and

Jenni Catron (18:27.708)
just to

Stevecarter (18:52.282)
I remember hiking up to Camelback Mountain to the top and there's this 360 view of the valley. And I felt like God just reminded me about Holy Weekend and where Good Friday is a picture of grief. Jesus didn't deserve this, you know, the stuff that you, me, others, many have walked through. We didn't deserve it, you know. But now you've got to like go through this process.

Saturday, Silent Saturday in Holy Weekend is a time where you're processing, and it really has that kind of desert motif of the Hebrew Scriptures. Egypt, the Hebrew nation did deserve slavery, the wandering in the desert. And I think for many of us, we wander in the uncertainty and the pain of like, what do I do now? And it really messes with our relationship with waiting. And some of us hate the wait, some of us waste the wait.

Jenni Catron (19:34.886)
Sure.

Jenni Catron (19:40.122)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jenni Catron (19:47.996)
Uh-huh.

Stevecarter (19:50.764)
and trying to learn how to win the weight was a real, real difficult piece. But I realized the more that I leaned into the heart of God, I leaned into healing and health, I was actually setting myself up for the surprise of Sunday. And that's where all you can do is receive that gift. And nothing I could do could like earn it or, you know, make it happen, but it...

Jenni Catron (20:11.91)
sure.

Stevecarter (20:19.488)
It was just realizing, there's people I need to forgive and there's work I need to do and there's stuff I need to grieve. the more that I did that, the more my heart, my mind, my soul, my body was open to receive the surprise. And really, I feel like the surprise of being at Four City Church and the surprise of this new role at Christ Church, I feel like has been just a picture of kind of that Easter Sunday moment for me.

what I thought was dead is alive again.

Jenni Catron (20:52.252)
This is live again. Yeah, gosh, Steve, thank you for sharing that. Was there time in there that I know that there were plenty of people reaching out to you, probably wanting you to come speak at their churches or coach them in some capacity. And I know you had to do some things to like just pay the bills and so forth. How did you?

How did you, I don't know if it was a fight the temptation or if it was, what did that look like to not just run to more achievement in doing, but to give yourself that space for grieving?

Stevecarter (21:29.035)
It was detox. It was detoxing off of a congregation, off a stage, off a paycheck, off of influence and opportunity. mean, was me having to really wrestle my own workaholism to the ground.

Jenni Catron (21:30.63)
sure.

Jenni Catron (21:48.08)
Yeah.

Stevecarter (21:51.098)
I had to wrestle with, is there ever going to be anything that's better than Willow? I saw the next 25 years of my life. was Chaplain of the Bears. I saw my life and now you're like, okay, the expectation is far from reality. So my mind began to think, where could I go that could actually be bigger and better than Willow?

Jenni Catron (22:02.886)
Great.

Stevecarter (22:21.292)
And I started to think like that. And that's when I realized deeply how much I needed the desert, how much I needed to step away because I couldn't create a goal that could actually make the pain go away.

Jenni Catron (22:24.273)
Right.

Jenni Catron (22:29.18)
Hmm.

Jenni Catron (22:43.792)
Right?

Stevecarter (22:45.248)
as a kid, I just channeled all of my anxiety or fear or difficulty to a bigger goal. And that worked as a kid. It just didn't work as a father and husband and wanting to be a healthy leader. so, but it was, it was, it was really hard. I wish I could say I was mature enough and healthy enough to say,

Jenni Catron (22:56.485)
Right.

Jenni Catron (23:08.284)
Yeah.

Stevecarter (23:12.788)
yeah, it was easy, Jenny. Like I just was great, you know, just to, yeah, no.

Jenni Catron (23:14.104)
Yeah, just rest in that. It's all, yeah. Well, I ask because in a, you know, slightly similar situation, know, we different, different but similar dynamics in our, in our stories. But in that season that I called it my wilderness, but like, I just was like, what's the fastest way out of here? God, like, give me the plan. Like I'll, whatever I got to do, just like, so it was like, I couldn't put down that driven achiever. Like, I mean,

Stevecarter (23:35.514)
Yeah.

Jenni Catron (23:43.854)
And it was like, I could keep running faster, but I was not getting anywhere. Like God was just like, you got to sit in this. You got to like, just really process and grieve what you need to grieve and go through that healing journey. And it was hard. So, I mean, I have so much, again, because your role and your...

circumstance, it was even more high profile for you than the circumstance that I was in. But I just have so much like just appreciation for the discipline required, knowing the type of leader you are were in the, you know, like the driven achieve achievement, right, to posture yourself in a way that you just are able to sit in the discomfort of the not knowing or not having next, right. So

Thank you for modeling that and leading that, because I think we all are beneficiaries of that work via your teaching, your writing, et cetera, as a gift to all of us.

Stevecarter (24:52.836)
Thank you. Well, there's this piece of property that's outside of Nashville and Johnny Cash and Roy Orbison, there were three homes that were built on this lake by the same architect. And Roy Orbison owned two of them. And one of them was known as the Party House where all of the great songs from the 50s and 60s, majority of them were written in this home supposedly.

Jenni Catron (25:16.955)
Mm-hmm.

Stevecarter (25:20.546)
And Roy Orbison then lived in this house with his family. And then Johnny Cash, who I absolutely love, lived next door. Roy Orbison is on tour and his two boys are playing with firecrackers and they burn the house down and they die. And Roy Orbison comes back to this just pile of rocks. he, Johnny walks over and he just cries and he just says, I can't rebuild here.

I'll sell you this property for a dollar, Johnny, but please never build on it again. And Johnny says, I won't. So you have this party house that's like this ancient reminder of some of the greatest hits in our past. Then Johnny actually sells his house years later to Barry Gibb, the lead singer of the Bee Gees.

Jenni Catron (26:04.345)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Stevecarter (26:14.774)
and supposedly overworked some workers so hard that either the guy intentionally burns the house down or falls asleep and the house burns down. So when you go to the property today, you see this overworked house that's now in rubble, pile of rocks. You see the party house, which is a testament to the past. But what Johnny did was he cleared the whole property of Roy Orbison's

house that burned down and he got, he was like, I'm going to build a garden and nothing grew. And so he, he called all of these pastors and priests and leaders and they gathered and they prayed over this piece of property. And now there are these trees, there are these fruit trees. It's unbelievable. and there's this beautiful Celtic cross on it. I say all that because that image comes to mind that whenever we're walking through

really, really hard stuff. For many of us, we're going to revert back to the party house, where we had the most hits, like I'm most familiar here, let's go here, or we're going to overwork into some unhealth and it's going to implode our life. But there is this Holy Week and death, burial, resurrection, and it often will lead to a garden and new life growing and it's different.

Jenni Catron (27:18.596)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Jenni Catron (27:28.838)
so good.

Jenni Catron (27:38.396)
That's right.

Stevecarter (27:40.324)
But I think for any of you who are just listening, like maybe going through something difficult, just you have your party house. You have your way of, this is familiar. I know how to do this. And you have your tendency to work and crush and achieve and go, but that's gonna lead to implosion. What might it look like to say, what's the new garden you wanna do in my heart, in my life, through my career, through my ministry, through the gifts you've entrusted to me? And I feel like that's in God's infinite kindness.

Jenni Catron (27:48.058)
Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Jenni Catron (27:59.612)
What's the new?

Stevecarter (28:09.996)
is something that he has done. And all I can say is thanks be to God and thanks be to the many mentors, women and men who have just held space and were a part of that healing journey for me.

Jenni Catron (28:23.738)
That's amazing. Okay, one more question for you. That was a powerful story and visual. What does, what's different about Pastor Leader Steve today on the other side of this journey? So what is, what is the, what is the, how do I want to say it? does achievement look like in this stage of leadership for you? That might not even be the right question, but

I'm just curious, what do you notice about yourself as a leader?

Stevecarter (28:58.426)
Well, I think there's some obvious differences. You know, one is my hair is gray. So that's 2018, you know, so that's true. No, I think that there was also something about first half of life and second half of life. And first half of life energy for most of us is we are charging. And then you get to a point, and I've heard people say that the most difficult time in a person's life often is 38 to 43.

Jenni Catron (29:03.42)
That's a reminder of...

Stevecarter (29:28.098)
is those five years, because you're moving from first half of life to second half of life. You're usually not as far along as you thought you'd be financially, influential. Like you, you're having to like wrestle with, this is my life. And usually at this time you're having to grieve a loss of a parent or some, some difficulty, which often has people go off into midlife crisis and all, all of that. But it's usually in the second half of life.

Jenni Catron (29:47.676)
Yep.

Stevecarter (29:57.592)
And I think that that desert season really helped me because I was a really good, cheap first date, meaning I could see you, Jenny, and we could chat for a few minutes and I could have a couple reminders of like, yeah, Nashville leader, da like, and, if you got to a point where you were talking about something hard, I would be like, yeah, yeah, huh, huh. And I would be looking for an out. I just didn't, if I didn't build that muscle of

Jenni Catron (30:22.108)
Sure, sure.

Stevecarter (30:27.618)
of knowing how to grieve myself, I wasn't an empath. I wasn't able to sit and hold space, which then underneath that was, I don't know how safe I was. And for me, trust is a mathematical formula. Safe plus consistent again and again, over and over on repeat makes someone worthy of trust. And if I'm consistently unsafe, I'm not worthy of trust. And if I'm safe,

Jenni Catron (30:33.532)
Sure. Sure.

Jenni Catron (30:50.492)
Hmm.

Stevecarter (30:58.542)
inconsistently, it's going to be hard for people to trust me. But when I got connected to my own Friday, my own Saturday, and my own Sunday, I allowed God to do that work. I think I was able, as Paul says, to mourn with those who mourn or Friday with those who Friday, to hold space with those people in that place because I've been able to have God meet me there.

Jenni Catron (31:13.84)
Yeah. Yep.

Stevecarter (31:22.23)
as well as rejoice with those and celebrate with those who are experiencing the beauty of Sunday and everything in between. So I think that's a more slower, still have goals, still have desires, but it's not ambitious. It's more, I feel like, grounded and rooted in not the shiny, but just in the faithful, as Eugene would say, the long obedience in the same direction.

Jenni Catron (31:27.355)
Yeah.

Jenni Catron (31:34.138)
Mm-hmm. Sure.

Jenni Catron (31:50.182)
That's really good. Gosh, Steve, this is so, so helpful. and I appreciate your desire to help shepherd us through these moments as well. That's what I hear from you as, a, as a pastor and friend is just that desire to help shepherd others through, through seasons. And I think we have so many driven leaders that probably listen to the podcast and are leading lots of great things. And I think.

just, I love what you said about that season gave you empathy. We connect with people in a different way when we've been through hard seasons ourselves. And so the beauty of that, and sometimes that remembrance that leadership really isn't about us or for us, like the things we're going through, the things we're navigating, the beauty is in how God uses those, both in shaping us, but ultimately in helping serve and support others too. So, so helpful.

Okay, where can people connect with you, pick up the book? How do we stay in touch with you?

Stevecarter (32:52.716)
Awesome. Well, thanks for asking. Stevecarter.org, you can always go there. Book, Grieve, Breathe, Receive is available at all the places. And then Christchurch.us is the church that I'm a part of or at Steve Ryan Carter for social media. So feel free, reach out, love to stay connected.

Jenni Catron (33:03.132)
Perfect.

Jenni Catron (33:12.188)
Perfect.

and we'll link to all of that in the show notes too. Steve, I'm so excited for this new season and your role at Christchurch, and I just know you're gonna be a gift to that community, and I know they're gonna be a gift to you as well. So thanks for sharing with us today. I'm grateful for how you've just been committed to leading yourself well, because it's impacting all of us. So thank you.

Stevecarter (33:35.81)
Awesome. Thanks so much, Jenny. Big fan of you. Grateful for you.

Jenni Catron (05:01.79)
All right, gang, I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. Just leaders that I can constantly learn from are such a gift. So I know you took a lot of notes. I hope you will go check out some of Steve's book. We did dig into his brand new book, Grieve, Breathe, Receive, Finding a Faith Strong Enough to Hold Us. So go to stevecarter.org to check out all of his work. And I hope again, it just equipped you in a unique way. If this was helpful, I'd love to know. Shoot me an email. 

Jenni Catron (05:31.424)
Jenny Catron at GetForesight. Love to connect with you there. You can find us on Instagram and Facebook at GetForesight or on LinkedIn at the Foresight group. And I am simply at Jenny Catron on all of the socials. So again, the more we connect, the more I feel like I can help serve you better. So your feedback is always so valuable to me. Share this with a friend. Maybe there's a leader you know who would resonate with this content today and be sure to share that with them. 

Jenni Catron (05:59.54)
And 

Jenni Catron (05:59.72)
lastly, go to culturematterssummit.com, get registered for the summit coming up on January 23rd. It's free. Please register. Like we do this stuff because we really want to help equip you as leaders. So go take advantage of that, get registered. And I will look forward to seeing you at that event as well. All right, friends, keep leading well. We'll see you next week.