282 | Leading with Purpose: Hal Donaldson on Self-Leadership, Obedience, and Avoiding Burnout

In this episode of the LeadCulture Podcast, Jenni Catron sits down with Hal Donaldson, president and CEO of Convoy of Hope, to discuss the power of self-leadership, obedience, and intentionality in leadership. Hal shares his personal journey of overcoming overcommitment and stress, revealing the critical need for leaders to prioritize their own well-being in order to serve others effectively. This conversation dives into the balance between ambition and obedience, the role of prayer in decision-making, and how leaders can navigate the weight of expectations. Tune in for practical wisdom on leading with heart, avoiding burnout, and finding true fulfillment in obedience rather than external validation.

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Transcript

Jenni Catron (00:01.629)
Well, hey, leaders, welcome to the LeadCulture Podcast, part of the Art of Leadership Network. I'm your host, Jenny Catron, CEO of the 4Sight Group. We're a company dedicated to helping leaders develop thriving teams. Each week, I'll be your guide as we explore practical strategies to equip you with the tools you need to lead with clarity, confidence, and build unstoppable momentum in your organization.

My mission is to be your trusted coach, empowering you to master the art of self-leadership so you'll learn to lead yourself well so you can lead others better. Each week we take a deep dive on a leadership or culture topic. You'll hear stories from amazing guests and leaders like you who are committed to leading well. So let's dive in and keep learning on this leadership journey together.

Well, friends today I am joined by Hal Donaldson and some of you may remember Hal was on the show a couple of years ago. I didn't go back in the archives to double check exactly how long, but Hal is a leader that I have every time I've connected and followed his work been so inspired by his faith, his commitment and just the work that he and Convoy of Hope do. Hal is the president and CEO of Convoy of Hope.

a global faith-based nonprofit organization that works with communities to address root causes of poverty and hunger. Hal has received numerous public service awards. He has a Bachelor of Arts in Journalism from San Jose State University and a Bachelor of Arts in Biblical Studies from Bethany University. Convoy of Hope is among the 50 largest charities in the United States. Through its disaster responses and community development programs,

convoy has distributed more than $2.5 billion worth of food and supplies, helped more than 250 million people, and currently feeds more than 570,000 children every school day. And Hal, I'm so glad to have you back. We're on the heels of the California wildfires. Your team's been responding to that. And I just so much appreciate the intentionality in the work you do. So.

Jenni Catron (02:25.18)
catch us up a little bit, tell us how you're doing, and then I'm really eager to dive into our conversation today.

Convoy Of Hope (02:32.088)
Well, Jenny, thank you for having me back and congratulations on the podcast. It's outstanding. yeah, Convoy of Hope just continues to partner with churches and businesses and civic organizations around the country. Last year was a very busy year in terms of disasters. Convoy responded to 99 disasters last year alone. And yeah, so that's become a very big part of what we do, but

Jenni Catron (02:36.924)
Thank you.

Jenni Catron (02:54.13)
Wow.

Convoy Of Hope (02:58.742)
know, internationally, we are, as you said, we're feeding children, we're empowering women. 50,000 women a year are going through our jobs training program and we're helping them start their businesses and training tens of thousands of farmers, helping them increase their yields. And so, besides the work we're doing at communities across the United States, internationally, we are seeing just exponential growth. And for that, we are just extremely grateful.

Jenni Catron (03:07.432)
Wow.

Jenni Catron (03:26.108)
That's amazing. Yeah. I wanted to kick that off just at the top of the interview because I think people, I suspect a lot of people are familiar with Convoy of Hope, but then hearing the specifics of the work you're doing both here in the U S and around the world, just a reminder of just the significance and the need. so thanks for your faithfulness in that. know it hasn't come without some sacrifices of leadership along the way, which is really what I.

Convoy Of Hope (03:48.462)
Thank you.

Jenni Catron (03:53.221)
I'm excited to talk to you about you have a book that came out last year, what really matters. And, I was just struck by, I always appreciate your honesty and vulnerability as a leader and a leader who has led significantly, but I would love for you maybe just give us a little bit of the backstory of what really matters. you talk a lot about overcommitment and stress and how that led to a significant health scare. So

Maybe give us the broad picture of the book and why, and then I'm sure I'm going to have a lot of questions and coaching moments for along the way.

Convoy Of Hope (04:28.28)
Sure. So the book's subtitle is How to Care for Yourself and Serve a Hurting World. that in my 30s and 40s, that was really the challenge. was one of those that believed that I had to work at 125 % or I was disappointing God. And I found myself really making sacrifices that God wasn't asking me to make. And sure enough, Convoy of Hope was getting off the ground.

was experiencing some early successes, but at what expense? And that expense was my physical well-being. And I found myself at age 50 in a hospital room, and they had to put a stint in my heart just because I was trying to do far too much. And that book really is in response to a number of leaders, business leaders, pastors, organizational leaders, who saw the meteoric growth of Convoy of Hope.

on the Forbes list and they asked, well, how did you grow it so quickly and why is it growing? And they were looking for really organizational adjustments. And I would respond by saying, well, you know, it really starts with you as the leader. Your heart is the foundation that God builds upon. And if your foundation is solid, then God is going to be able to build something quite beautiful and something larger. If your heart is flawed,

then there are limitations on what God will do because eventually what you're building is going to topple on that foundation. And so I would tell leaders this and they would always respond, well, I get that, but what are the organizational adjustments that I need to make? And so I just figured, Jenny, I'm going to write a book and I'm going to be very vulnerable, transparent, be very practical and biblical. just so now when people ask, I just send them the book.

Jenni Catron (06:08.36)
Ha!

Jenni Catron (06:16.784)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jenni Catron (06:22.888)
So basically we're going to ask you for the Cliff Notes today as well. It's going to come down to you, right? Right. I love, I love that phrase and it's a little convicting in a way. Your heart is the foundation God builds upon. And if I get really honest with, with you and our listeners today, so I'm in a really busy season. It's a big season of growth. We've got a new book coming out and the, the sense of

Convoy Of Hope (06:28.248)
That's okay. That's all right.

Jenni Catron (06:51.113)
pressure and responsibility to get it all right and do all the right things, you know, in this season of growth. And I think one of the things that I'm noticing is like, God keeps just the refrain probably for the last two years has been, you trust me? Do you trust me? it keeps coming back to this. Like, is everything I'm doing rooted in my belief and trust in God and his ability to do more through me than I can do on my own? And

Convoy Of Hope (06:59.277)
Yes.

Convoy Of Hope (07:07.254)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Jenni Catron (07:17.97)
The listeners know this, but I'm an ambitious driven leader who likes to think I can get a lot done in my own power. so I'd love for you, I don't know if you want to respond to that a little bit more or maybe even, but the heart is the foundation. What did that look like for you? Were there some shifts you had to make? Cause I think I've heard you reference being kind of ambitious and driven yourself. And clearly if you launch and lead a ministry in an organization like you have, there's a lot of drive and passion behind that. So.

Convoy Of Hope (07:37.772)
Yes.

Jenni Catron (07:46.854)
Maybe speak to us that have trouble figuring out how do we make our heart the foundation.

Convoy Of Hope (07:52.866)
Yes, I wish in my 30s and 40s that I had prayed more and worked less, because if I had, that really demonstrates trust in God. And the foundation, it begins to erode. It's flawed when we are doing things God is not asking us to do. And here I was, I was flying all over the world. I mean, I was feeding children in Afghanistan and Indonesia. I mean, all over the world.

Jenni Catron (07:59.145)
Hmm.

Convoy Of Hope (08:22.344)
And yet it was taking a toll on me physically, emotionally, and spiritually. And I truly was running on empty at times and wasn't the leader that I could be. I think I demonstrated faith when I began to pray more and work less, when I began to really entrust this ministry to God and ask God to do things I couldn't. And some years ago when I made that shift,

It's really ironic, when I began to work less, God began to do the impossible and miracles began to happen. I really, do it, God entrusts, He entrusts to those He trusts. And I guess my heart got into a place some years ago at age 50 in a hospital room that my heart was repositioned and God began perhaps to trust me more because I was trusting Him more.

Jenni Catron (09:05.128)
Hmm.

Jenni Catron (09:20.168)
Yeah.

Convoy Of Hope (09:20.954)
Anyway, so I think that's really been my journey is learning to do less and to trust more.

Jenni Catron (09:28.04)
Gosh, I feel like you're just probably coaching me directly. Hopefully the rest of the listeners are benefiting from this. Is it a situation where you can hear that? Because I think myself and other leaders listening, hear that, pray more, work less, trust God. And yet, how...

Like, do you think it has to take a life-threatening moment to bring you to that reality? Or like, how would you coach some of the rest of us to say, don't let it get to that place before you completely believe, really trust what God says?

Convoy Of Hope (10:10.082)
Yeah, yeah, no, it's a great question.

Convoy Of Hope (10:16.254)
Well, I think you have to take intentional steps to demonstrate faith to God, to your family, to reiterate that your family is your first congregation. I think I became very intentional. And I'll just share three things that I did that are very intentional. The book is filled with intentional steps you can take to demonstrate to God and to those you love.

Jenni Catron (10:37.064)
That's

Convoy Of Hope (10:45.15)
that you're serious and that you are truly going to trust God to give the increase. And again, in my 30s and 40s, I would be someone who should have been branded as someone who was recklessly ambitious. Again, ambitious for the right things, but reckless because again, taking a toll on me, taking a toll on my family. But here's three things that I did at age 50.

Jenni Catron (10:59.433)
Mmm.

Convoy Of Hope (11:12.886)
I used to do meetings at breakfast, lunch, and dinner, like four or five days a week. And I just felt like the Lord really wanted me just to give up those dinner meetings and, you know, do breakfast or lunch, that's fine. But dinner is family time. It's my wife's time. And so I just cut those out. Rarely, very rarely do you see me taking a dinner meeting. Second thing I did was I made vacation sacred.

Jenni Catron (11:28.668)
Right. Yep.

Jenni Catron (11:41.437)
Hmm.

Convoy Of Hope (11:41.718)
At the beginning of the year, my wife and my children, we would sit down and we would map out an entire year. These are days we're going to designate. We're going to designate for just being together. I remember one year I received an invitation from the president of the United States to join five other leaders in the Oval Office. I turned the president down. Why? Because...

Jenni Catron (12:06.63)
Wow.

Convoy Of Hope (12:08.858)
The family is more important and I had made a commitment to them. Another thing that I did, again, beginning at age 50, and when I became very intentional, again, that's when God made things happen. I decided that there was going to be an alarm clock at 8 p.m. every night and that I was not going to worry, I was not going to think about tomorrow's problems after 8 o'clock.

Jenni Catron (12:22.216)
Hmm.

Convoy Of Hope (12:37.366)
After eight o'clock, it's God's time, it's family time, it's refreshment time. Because here's what happens, if you're worrying about something or trying to think through something at eight o'clock, you're probably thinking about it 10, you're probably thinking about it at midnight, and you're lying awake in bed at 2 a.m. And so don't steal from tomorrow because you would wake up and I would be really unrefreshed, I would be tired throughout the day. I was stealing from tomorrow. I mean, those are some of the things that we have to do that

Jenni Catron (12:50.664)
That's right. Yep.

Hmm.

Convoy Of Hope (13:05.708)
really to make a statement that we're going to make a sea change. And I did. And when I did, all the things that I really hoped for at Convoy of Hope really began to happen. And I just was spending more time in prayer. And God did it.

Jenni Catron (13:08.989)
Yeah.

Jenni Catron (13:20.306)
That's amazing. That's amazing. Did you have somebody hold you accountable to those commitments you made?

Convoy Of Hope (13:29.986)
Yeah, that's big part, I think, of mature leadership is that inner circle, that three-foot rule, if you will. Those people need to be truth-tellers. And what happens with a lot of leaders is that they surround themselves with cheerleaders rather than truth-tellers. And I surround myself with people that would just tell me the truth.

That helped me because when they saw that I was going back to old ways, they would confront me. They would tell me. And for that, I'm extremely grateful. But yes, friendship, the right friends is critical to successful leadership.

Jenni Catron (14:21.852)
Yeah. Yeah. So powerful. Well, I think it'd just be easy to say I'm going to make those commitments and then drift back to, make an excuse for why there's an exception. So I'm so struck by, you know, that protection of vacations, but I don't know a lot of leaders who'd be willing to say no to the president of the United States. It's like, I think a lot of us would be tempted to say, that's a, that's a worthwhile exception. Right. And so to have that just

really strong conviction and commitment to the things you defined as key to just living from a healthy place is really powerful. One of the things that you discussed, you discussed the difference between God's expectations and unrealistic expectations we place on ourselves. I'd love to hear you talk about that, because how do you discern the difference between God's expectations and then

Convoy Of Hope (15:10.264)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jenni Catron (15:18.054)
the crazy expectations we put on ourselves. find myself often wrestling with that because I have a strengths finder. I'm high responsibility so I can make everything an expectation because I feel responsible in some way. So coach us a little on that.

Convoy Of Hope (15:27.79)
Yeah, right.

Convoy Of Hope (15:33.612)
Yeah, I like to use the word obedience rather than balance. Because if you are living an obedient life, you will be balanced. And I think balance for many years was a goal. I wish I had really been pursuing obedience and giving God a vote. Children need to be fed in Africa, so yes, I must go. I must do it.

Jenni Catron (15:38.652)
Mm.

Convoy Of Hope (16:02.218)
and I would never pause and ask God, you want me to go? There's a trip next week to another country. I won't give you the name of the country, but I was supposed to go. I was asked to go and to speak and to be a part of an event. And yeah, I gave God a vote and it became very clear that I wasn't supposed to go. And so I think giving God a vote is really critical.

Prayer is critical to compassion work. It's critical to a church. It's critical to a business. Why? Because it's pausing long enough to give God a vote. My leadership is mature to the point now where people will ask me questions. And I used to just like be really quick. Yeah, I'll just give you an answer. Now I'm not afraid to say, hey, let me sleep on that. Let me think about that a little bit. I'll come back to you. I do that a lot more today than I did when I was 35 or 40.

Jenni Catron (16:52.424)
Hmm.

Convoy Of Hope (16:59.438)
And so, yeah, I think coming back to your original point, I just, I really feel like I'm giving God a vote and we need to give God a vote. And that requires that you use some restraint. A lot of times leaders take pride in the fact that they make quick decisions. Sometimes quick decisions are needed, but there's something to also be said about using restraint and taking the time to really give God a vote.

Jenni Catron (17:14.706)
Mm-hmm.

Jenni Catron (17:19.047)
Great.

Jenni Catron (17:29.864)
Did it take you a while to hear God? I noticed sometimes my inability to be still long enough to feel like I, you know, maybe I want to give him a vote, but am I really hearing? I'd be curious if that was, if it took a while to feel like you could hear him well.

Convoy Of Hope (17:54.146)
Yeah, I have four daughters and one of them asked me the question, hey dad, when you talk about hearing from God, describe that for me, unpack that for me. And what does that look like? And I like to describe it this way, it's like the skies are cloudy, it's just they're filled with clouds. But all of sudden, as you're contemplating something and you're trying to seek God's direction,

Jenni Catron (18:03.888)
Yeah, yeah.

Convoy Of Hope (18:24.078)
It's like the clouds open up and all of sudden you see blue sky. You're asking me these questions in a cloudy world, but then all of a sudden you land on something because the sky gets blue. That's how it works for me. That's how I would describe it. That's how I get clarity. But I think another part is I'm not afraid to ask God questions and

Jenni Catron (18:37.618)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Convoy Of Hope (18:51.438)
So, Jenny, if you were to look at my wallet right now, it would be filled with little pieces of paper. And I've been doing this since I was 50, you know, or I will write down a request or I'll write down a question and I'll stick it in my wallet or I'll stick it in my Bible, my briefcase, and I carry it around with me. And I've seen God answer questions. I've seen Him do the impossible miracles.

But actually it begins with asking the right question. And so if anything, my journalistic background has helped me ask God the right questions and to be as honest as I possibly can with Him. And I found that honesty with God results in honest answers.

Jenni Catron (19:28.934)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jenni Catron (19:37.32)
Hmm. That's really good. That's really good.

What advice would you give to someone that really wrestles with the pressure of other people's expectations? So there's the expectations we put on ourselves. We're trying to balance that with really hearing what God is asking from us. But then I think a lot of leaders have a natural propensity to people pleasing. And we do have people putting all kinds of expectations on us. How have you navigated that?

Convoy Of Hope (20:14.254)
Well, I think that question really goes to the heart of what are you ambitious for? And a lot of times we become ambitious for pleasing other people. That's something that we all wrestle with. And I think I'm certainly no different than that. But I think pausing when people do place expectations on you, pausing to just ask God, is that something you're asking me to do?

is really, really important. And I think somewhere along the line, I learned that my ambition really stemmed from the fact when I was in my 20s and 30s, I was putting leaders up on pedestals. they, know, leaders who had the loudest voice, who had the most successful organizations, people who seemed to be the most powerful and influential, I found in my 20s,

I was trying to emulate them. They became my idol. I was ambitious to become like them and to surpass what they were doing. And as a result of that, you begin to live under the auspices of other people's expectations rather than God's. And I think I began just to redefine what God wants me to achieve in life. And it certainly isn't to become someone else or to become bigger than them.

Jenni Catron (21:20.392)
Hmm.

Jenni Catron (21:30.236)
Yeah.

Convoy Of Hope (21:42.316)
It's just to live in obedience. And I think when you come to that realization that, you know, our quest in life is to become more like Jesus. That's the quest. It's not to become like some other business leader or pastor or person on television. No, it's just we're going to become more like Jesus and whatever He asks us to do, we're going to do.

Jenni Catron (21:52.338)
Mm-hmm.

Jenni Catron (21:56.272)
Right. Right.

Jenni Catron (22:04.52)
Did you get some, were there some, how did you rebuild that infrastructure, like how you think about that? the, how do I want to say? You know, you're following other people's models and expectations. How did you like rewrite that to give you clarity that was congruent with who you are and what following Jesus means for you?

Convoy Of Hope (22:31.522)
Yeah, I think I replaced the people that I was idolizing in my 20s. And I began to look up to people and seek time with people who were the most faithful, the most obedient, the most humble. And they became more important to me. I began to try to, I want to be more like them rather than someone I see on television, for example. And, you know, I think what happens to, if I could just give one warning is,

Whether you're a business leader, pastor, organizational leader, we all want to be up on pedestals. you try to be on top of the pedestal. And what we don't realize is that pedestals can become diving boards. Scripture tells us that when we become proud of ourselves, we no longer hear His voice. And that pedestal can become a diving board. It can take a very significant fall.

So we shouldn't be ambitious for the pedestal. No, don't become ambitious for the pedestal. Become ambitious for becoming more like Jesus. And then life's going to be a lot more pleasant.

Jenni Catron (23:40.264)
Thank

Jenni Catron (23:46.409)
Do you think our, I feel like so much of our world is organized to encourage us to pursue the pedestal because we, know, the ability to have followers and, you know, social influence and all of these things. And so it's almost like,

almost feel like maybe even subconsciously we pursue that. And maybe we always have, because we all, know, pride and ego are, you know, part of the human condition. But yeah, is it, do you think, is it more countercultural now to even pursue, you know, like actively not try to create a platform or a pedestal?

Convoy Of Hope (24:21.518)
Sure, sure, yeah.

Convoy Of Hope (24:39.468)
Yeah, again it comes back to obedience. What is Jesus asking you to do? What is ambitious behavior leading you toward? And I think when ambition no longer was my God, Jesus was the Son of God. And the Gospels were really in my manual that life began to change. I began to read the Gospels at some point.

Jenni Catron (24:57.384)
Hmm.

Convoy Of Hope (25:08.526)
I think this was in my late 40s. I began to the Gospels every day, and I read that for over a year every day from the Gospels, read them, reread them, read them again. And I just began to pray every day. said, God, make me more like Jesus. And what happened with that, what seems like a very simple routine,

Jenni Catron (25:28.572)
Mm-hmm.

Convoy Of Hope (25:37.462)
What happened was that I began to, Jesus became my filter. I really laid him over every decision, just making sure that I was doing it the way that he would have me do it. In fact, I'll just tell you, today I met with a CEO of a major corporation who is going through some major crises. And I was very blunt with him. He was making some decisions and

Jenni Catron (25:53.33)
Mm-hmm.

Convoy Of Hope (26:06.134)
I said, I wouldn't make those decisions, I'll tell you why. Because Jesus wouldn't make those decisions that way. He would not do that. And I just encouraged him, read the Gospels, and before long you're going to understand that Jesus' way is the only way.

Jenni Catron (26:26.76)
Gosh, Hal, it's so powerful. I'm curious. I have one last question for you. feel like I could probably keep just, feel like I'm getting a personal coaching session. Just because I think so much of my wiring lends me to that drive and ambition and finding that place of living from a healthy, honoring place. like, feels like the constant battle, but

My question for you is you work in an area of responding to needs around the world and hardships and suffering and there's got to feel like no end in sight sometimes. We all feel it to a degree as we watch everything go on around the world and you guys are actively responding to all of that.

Convoy Of Hope (27:18.542)
Yes.

Jenni Catron (27:21.336)
What gives you a sense of fulfillment or accomplishment? Knowing that there's on this side of heaven, there's probably no end to that work. How do you rest in what you have done and the contribution you've made?

Convoy Of Hope (27:40.238)
Well, thank you for that. I think if you were to sit in my office, what you would see is requests across the United States and around the world, requests for help, calls for help, police for help from around the world, across the United States. And one of the things that really helped me with that was that, you know, Jesus was also surrounded by need. He was bombarded with need. Everywhere he went.

Jenni Catron (28:05.768)
Yeah.

Convoy Of Hope (28:08.558)
There were people who needed healing, the poor who needed food, and He did not heal everyone and He did not feed everyone. Jesus did what His Father asked Him to do. And that's why today prayer is such an important component of our ministry. Whether we're doing what you're doing right now or running a business or leading an organization, prayer is an important component because you can't do everything.

And so what does bring me fulfillment? What brings me fulfillment? It's obedience. I put my head on the pillow at night saying, you know what, I did what I believe God asked me to do. He's not asked me to do everything, but he is asking me to do something. And what is that something? And if I do the something, then God is pleased and I can rest well.

Jenni Catron (28:55.9)
Yeah.

Jenni Catron (29:04.128)
Gosh, Hal, thank you so, so much. I would love for you to share with us how we can learn more about Convoy of Hope, connect more with the work that you guys are doing. Just give us, let us know how we can be more involved.

Convoy Of Hope (29:18.478)
Thank you.

Well, thank you for that. know, ConvoyofHope.org is our website, and that's filled with a lot of information. And if you're wanting to know more about how to get involved, how to give, how to pray, that's a good place to go to. But I also say this, Jenny, that the Convoy of Hope church network has grown exponentially. There are thousands of churches that are connected with Convoy of Hope, partners with Convoy of Hope.

it may very well be that your church is a part of the network. just, we always encourage people, if they're wanting to give, give through your local church, especially if they're partners with Convoy. We believe that the church is God's answer for bringing healing to the world. It's not organizations like Convoy, it's the church. And people like to tell me, well, Convoy of Hope is in the relief business. Not really.

Jenni Catron (30:01.266)
Hmm.

Convoy Of Hope (30:20.11)
We're actually in the church resourcing and mobilization business. That's what we do. I believe that that's one of the reasons that God has blessed Convoy is because it's not about Convoy. It's about the local church. And we've been able to just really tear down the walls that are artificial walls between churches and businesses and civic organizations and governments. Let's tear those walls down. No one has a monopoly on compassion.

Jenni Catron (30:24.231)
I that.

Jenni Catron (30:33.99)
Yeah, that's powerful.

Convoy Of Hope (30:49.858)
and let's work together to make our communities a better place.

Jenni Catron (30:50.12)
That's right.

So powerful. Gosh, Hal, thank you so much for just leading the way in what healthy God-honoring leadership looks like, doing such meaningful and good work, and then helping model how to do that well for all of us. So I took so many nuggets. I have so many scribbles on my page as we're listening. so leaders will share the website and how you can connect more with Hal and their team.

And I just want to encourage you, if you were inspired by this, share it with another leader on your team, share it with a friend, another leader that would just be encouraged by what they heard from Hal today. And in the meantime, keep leading well and we'll see you soon.