284 | The Hiring Shift: Why Culture is the Key to Remarkable Teams

Building Remarkable Teams: Insights from Slingshot Group

In today’s evolving job market, hiring isn’t just about filling positions—it’s about building remarkable teams that drive mission and impact. In this episode, Jenni Catron sits down with the team from Slingshot Group to unpack the keys to attracting, developing, and retaining top talent.

They explore why culture has become the #1 factor in hiring, how leaders can clarify their organization’s identity to attract the right candidates, and why onboarding is make-or-break for employee retention. Plus, they dive into the essential leadership skills that foster connection, care, and long-term team success.

If you’re serious about building a thriving, high-performing team, this conversation is packed with insights you won’t want to miss.

Key Takeaways:
✅ Healthy teams are the foundation of remarkable missions.
✅ Culture—not salary—is the top driver for attracting talent.
✅ Onboarding is critical to long-term employee success.
✅ Leadership development is non-negotiable for retention.
✅ The best teams take risks, grow, and always build.

💡 “We don’t quit jobs, we quit bosses.” — Tune in now to learn how to become the kind of leader people want to work for.

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Transcript

Jenni Catron (00:02.388)
Tim and Phil, I'm so excited for you guys to join me today. We get a chance here and there to connect. And when we do, we're always talking all kinds of random things like we did before we hit record. but I'm really grateful for the opportunity to connect with you guys. One of the things I love about slingshot is just the shared passion that both of our organizations have for building great teams. You know, we just deeply believe in the importance of teams being healthy and thriving.

Slingshot Group (00:13.124)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Slingshot Group (00:24.849)
Hmm.

Jenni Catron (00:32.314)
And you guys very specifically help organizations find those right fits. So I'd love for you to give maybe give people maybe just a little overview of the work Slingshot does. then, and then I want you to dive into what are you seeing patterns, trends, what's going on in the search world right now. And that'll probably kick off our conversation, but maybe fill in everybody who might not be familiar with Slingshot, give them a little overview of what you guys do.

Slingshot Group (01:00.624)
Yeah, well Jenni, we love this partnership just because it's a hand in glove partnership for us because our overall mission is that we build remarkable teams through staffing and coaching. And so for us, it's all about healthy teams, whether that be helping your leader get to the next level, helping assess your team health or finding the missing people for your team. It's all about how you have the right remarkable team to achieve your remarkable mission.

And then that plays beautifully in the culture. mean, the main, one of the main things we're seeing is that culture is the leading draw card for people joining teams, for people being a part of this mission. No longer is salary the most important thing. It's about development. It's about lifestyle. It's about mission. And ultimately it's about

It's about clarity around an organization's identity because identity determines function and mission momentum. And so we're seeing those deep questions. used to be that an organization would be interviewing the potential candidate or leader. It's often now the other way around. And those questions are around, who are you? Tell me about your mission.

Jenni Catron (02:10.655)
Interesting.

Slingshot Group (02:16.86)
Why am I going to want to show up every day at work and be a part of this? It's about clarity around mission and around the healthy culture of the soul. Was it Ralph Waldo Emerson who likened culture to the soul? It's the soul of the organization.

Jenni Catron (02:33.278)
That's right. That's right. Yeah. It's fascinating that you're seeing that even in what, you know, candidates want from their employer and that there's almost a reversal of their interviewing the organization just as much as the organization is interviewing them. I'd be curious, like, are you seeing people not choose to take a job because of what they observe about culture?

Phil Bowdle (03:02.508)
I mean, absolutely. mean, the thing about that is it's really, it's observed in the way of, there's often a difference between what people say about their culture and what they actually experience. And so the conversations before an interview versus what happens in person when you get to sense and feel the culture beyond maybe just the leader is where that sharpening process happens in any kind of interview process. And that's where it it really gets vital for

both the, the interviewer and the interviewee to both be asking the right questions to lean in. this, is this the right fit? Is this the right culture where I can actually see myself in? No doubt.

Jenni Catron (03:38.344)
Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I'm curious, how are you prepping organizations? Cause you guys do such an intentional job of making sure when you're going to work with an organization and help them find a fit, you know, making sure they're ready for the fit. And then also then making sure you're finding the right candidate for them. Do you find that they lack some clarity of their culture? Like, are you having to do a little like coaching them up for clarity on that so that you can help them find a good match?

Slingshot Group (04:08.358)
Yeah, remarkable organizations, Jenni, are always rehearsing who they are. They're always reminding themselves who they are. That's why a part of our model has always been a site visit, because we want to get on site. We want to learn about the organization, because effectively we're on staff, we're adjunct staff at the organization for the length of a coaching engagement or a search. And we believe that prescription without diagnosis is malpractice.

Jenni Catron (04:12.222)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Jenni Catron (04:31.752)
Yeah.

Jenni Catron (04:35.624)
You're right.

Slingshot Group (04:36.156)
And so we have to work out what is needed in that organization. And they're obvious conversations. This is part of the partnership we love with Foresight is that once we get on site, if that culture is not healthy, we are not going to sign a search contract because we're not going to be about placing a person in or a leader in an unhealthy situation. We're going to call Jenni and her team and say, help.

Jenni Catron (04:54.035)
Wow.

Jenni Catron (05:03.571)
Hahaha

Slingshot Group (05:04.252)
We need you to bring some help to situation so then we can come in. It's all about the ecosystem of how we continue to build kingdom teams, kingdom organizations. So yeah, we see that. We will often see a lack of clarity and we'll encourage them towards that. We think of it on a spectrum of toxic to dysfunctional to functional to remarkable.

Jenni Catron (05:11.037)
That's right. That's right.

Jenni Catron (05:22.632)
and

Jenni Catron (05:28.158)
Good.

Slingshot Group (05:29.456)
we'll often see dysfunction. Every organization has some kind of dysfunction they've got to keep in check. Most organizations fall in the functional category. The toxic ones, Jenni, well, let's have you back on our podcast and we can talk about that and how to fix that. But how can we help get the kind of clarity that will lead towards remarkable? What would you add,

Jenni Catron (05:33.886)
Sure.

Jenni Catron (05:42.351)
Hahaha!

Phil Bowdle (05:51.106)
Yeah, you know, it's anytime we get to sit across other leaders and other teams, I always try to notice what we notice, what stands out. And there's some, there can be good, bad, and ugly to that. And sometimes there's some things that have been lurking in the background that the leader or leadership may be blind to in the organization that is helpful to have an outside voice to step in. Like you've seen, like we've seen to help coach and encourage the next steps. But what's more fun is when we get to notice what we notice of the beautiful

Jenni Catron (06:01.811)
Sure.

Phil Bowdle (06:19.808)
incredible things that are happening. The leaders that are serving behind the scenes that nobody's seeing, but we get to encounter the leaders that have something special about how they work with each other or how they hide. Like those are, those are the remarkable, remarkable things that sometimes they are blind to cause they're just living in it and they need somebody from the outside and say, look at how special this is and don't lose that. Keep fighting for it.

Jenni Catron (06:24.073)
That's good. Yep.

Jenni Catron (06:35.323)
Yeah, yep, yep.

Jenni Catron (06:42.868)
Gosh, I love that Phil, cause you're right. And we see that in the work we do and you naming it and like how you guys see it is you go in and there are things that's just familiar to them. And there are occasions where I'll walk in and work with a organization and I'll be like, this is really rare and special. And because it's what they know, they don't even realize what a gift it is that their team operates this way or whatever the behavior or value is that they're really living into.

and having somebody also call out what's good because for leaders, we're always troubleshooting what's not working. We always see the things that aren't working and particularly, and you can clarify this for me if I'm off the mark, but when you have an open position or two, you're underwater, especially in ministry context because rarely are we overstaffed. So you have an open position or two, you're just trying to stay afloat until you get somebody in that seat.

And then you become, you you don't have time to pay attention to the things that are good and having people call that out is really actually quite special as well. So I love that. I love that acknowledgement.

Slingshot Group (07:48.252)
Mm.

Slingshot Group (07:52.036)
Often Jenni, with an open role on your team, you're just in survival mode. And that's, yeah, and that's the work we love to do is to come in and help people just get their eyes up and see what you just mentioned. See what's beautiful about this organization and why people would be drawn to joining this team.

Jenni Catron (07:55.687)
100th, yep.

Jenni Catron (08:07.987)
Sure. Yep. Yep. Completely. What else are team members looking for when they're looking at organizations? Culture, you said, is a growing conversation of, what's it like to be here? What's this ecosystem like? Well, I enjoy this. What else is standing out as important to people when they're considering a role right now?

Phil Bowdle (08:31.33)
Yeah, I think one thing that stands out is they're asking more questions than you realize. They're asking not just what would this job look like, they're asking what would my life look like if I take a step into serving and working with this organization. So it's broader, it's maybe a broader category than sometimes what we think. And it can be a super power for us if we tap into that, because they're not asking just tell me my job description, they're saying what would my family

Jenni Catron (08:41.641)
Mm-hmm.

Phil Bowdle (08:58.784)
situation look like if I moved here or stepped into this role? What's my financial situation? What's the location and the freedom or flexibility it has? Like there's a lot more life situations that are coming into play that people are actually asking about. And the smart, remarkable teams that we're seeing are the ones that are aware of that, sensitive to that, and are constantly making little tweaks to make sure that they are attracting and keeping and retaining their top leaders that they can build with and build around.

Jenni Catron (09:08.189)
That's good.

Jenni Catron (09:25.161)
That's good. Yeah.

Slingshot Group (09:27.772)
Again, hiring managers need to remember that they are being interviewed. Like just what you said, all of those things, Phil, and leaders are looking for development opportunities and relational value way more than they ever have in the past. I mean, we all know that the seas of hiring, chemistry as part of that has become so elevated and so important. And we see gaps in hiring teams giving attention to this.

Jenni Catron (09:33.169)
Yes. Yeah.

Jenni Catron (09:40.25)
Mm-hmm.

Jenni Catron (09:48.873)
Hmm.

Slingshot Group (09:57.756)
Because as leaders, we need to be thinking context, coaching and care. Like part of your responsibility is stewarding the present and future of each person on your team. That's good culture, right Jenni? It's realizing you're stewarding your leaders. So how you hire matters, how you fire matters, how you handle conflict matters, how you give feedback matters, and how you steward each and every person under your leadership absolutely matters. Good stewardship and care is encouraging growth.

Jenni Catron (10:00.969)
Yep.

Jenni Catron (10:06.919)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jenni Catron (10:27.111)
That's so good. Yeah. I, know, it's interesting cause I, so I'm usually not in on the hiring side of things, but I will be in the thick of it with organizations and we'll hear the team are asking, you know, when I'm doing surveys, know, when I'm doing culture surveys, well, things like the desire for more training and development or

Slingshot Group (10:27.556)
So, so important. That's what people are looking for.

Jenni Catron (10:49.642)
the flexibility because of family dynamics. Like you're just hearing that shift in what's important to them. And I think sometimes for those of us who grew up in a work world that was a little bit different, I joke that I'm just old enough to remember before we had computers that could be shut down and put in our bag to go home or phones that went everywhere and you could talk to everybody. I mean, I literally came to work, booted up my computer, worked all day.

Slingshot Group (11:14.203)
Right.

Jenni Catron (11:18.299)
shut it down, went home, and unless it was in a, right? Unless, I mean, it kind of was glorious. Now you look back on it because unless it was a true emergency and somebody was calling your home phone, you didn't talk to coworkers when you went home at night. And now it's so integrated. And I think there's some, also some wonderful and beautiful things about that. And it's, it's the world we live in, but because it's so integrated, team members want to make sure that this is a place that I want.

Slingshot Group (11:19.75)
Imagine. Imagine.

Jenni Catron (11:47.676)
my whole life to be integrated. I remember when I took the job out in California. So I had been in Nashville 20 years and deep connections, relationships, community. And of course I had been working at a church and I always thought, gosh, when we invited people to come on the staff, this is an amazing place. And clearly I loved culture. So I was always trying to make sure the environment was fantastic for our team.

meet that mark, but that was the goal. But we would bring people on and if somebody didn't immediately fit and connect, I was always confused by it because I just loved the place. I loved everything we did. When I made the move to California and we completely uprooted and were merging into a new culture, a new organization, my eyes were opened to the impact it is on a team member when

Slingshot Group (12:29.307)
Hmm.

Jenni Catron (12:45.726)
they join your team. That you feel like it's amazing and wonderful. But for that new employee and their family, mean, everything is upended and disrupted, especially if they're relocating. And it gave me so much greater compassion. I wish I had had that experience a lot sooner in my journey because it gave me so much compassion for what it takes for somebody to really connect and thrive in a new organization. Would you guys add or?

Slingshot Group (13:14.17)
Yeah. When, well, Jenni, would, I would say to knowing some of your story, not only were you shifting organizational culture, but you were shifting massive culture in the state that you moved to and the part of the state that you moved to. mean, I remember when I moved in ministry years and years ago from the other side of the world, and you're not only navigating organizational culture, you're navigating culture culture.

Jenni Catron (13:15.625)
speak to that.

Jenni Catron (13:27.079)
Yeah, for sure.

Jenni Catron (13:40.796)
Right, right.

Slingshot Group (13:41.436)
And so it's being sensitive to that too. I would also say, and it's a bit of a topic shift that what people are looking for, and this goes without saying, but because we're in staffing, we should say it. So many people are looking for remote roles. So many people are looking for remote roles. And if there's a possibility that you can make a role remote and we understand why people need to be in office. We get it.

Jenni Catron (13:44.585)
Yeah.

Jenni Catron (13:55.971)
I wondered about that. Yeah.

Jenni Catron (14:07.017)
Yep.

Slingshot Group (14:08.188)
And we're not afraid of it as recruiters. We'll step into whatever it needs to be. But you will open up your candidate pool dramatically if there's an opportunity for there to be remote work involved. But also, you know this, Jenni, you've got to work harder now, especially post pandemic, on your culture if it is a virtual team. You've got to work really, really carefully on that. Anything you'd add,

Phil Bowdle (14:17.357)
Mm-hmm.

Jenni Catron (14:21.117)
Sure.

Jenni Catron (14:29.885)
That's right. Yep.

Phil Bowdle (14:34.892)
Yeah, the thought that comes to mind too, and Tim mentioned this earlier, the power dynamic is different when people are thinking about different situations, applying for roles, joining a team, all those things that you talked about. What I noticed in years past and often even in some organizations now, they kind of have a, there's a little bit of a power position for the hiring leader and manager of like, all right, let's see if you fit us, let's see what you got. And they,

Jenni Catron (15:00.404)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Phil Bowdle (15:02.818)
they lose so many opportunities to actually be the recruiter and the, and the person to be able to help facilitate, is this the right match for us and for you? And really that's what the person is looking for as they consider all those giant questions of, I ready to move to California? Am I ready to uproot what I've built all these years before it takes somebody that gets it. And there's just not a whole lot of room for top leaders to sit across somebody and consider, am I going to make a major

Jenni Catron (15:11.145)
It's so good.

Jenni Catron (15:23.379)
Yeah.

Phil Bowdle (15:31.176)
move here with somebody that they feel like doesn't get them on that. So don't lose the opportunity to be the recruiter, regardless of if you have the ultimate decision, you still have a big role to play to actually create an environment that somebody wants to be attracted to and move their life towards.

Jenni Catron (15:34.078)
Yeah.

Jenni Catron (15:48.702)
Yeah, that's huge. There was a, I'm trying to remember, I quoted this statistic somewhere in my, in the book, but now I'm trying to remember it. But something like 33 % of people don't last beyond the first 30 days or something. Like you guys probably have better stats for that than I do, but it was some alarming statistic of how, you know, much, you know, how many people.

don't last beyond the first 30 days. And I know obviously that's a big reason why we engage organizations like you guys in Slingshot to say, hey, help us make a really good, find a really good fit because that disruption is so intense. How would you, how are you coaching leaders when they do bring a new recruit, know, somebody new to the organization? How are you coaching them to ensure that person has a good like first 30, 90 day experience?

Slingshot Group (16:43.196)
One of the most underestimated powerful things you do as an organization is your onboarding process. And so we've talked a lot with organizations about how to be way more intentional. It's like what you said happened or you experienced in California, a whole different perspective about how you start at an organization.

Jenni Catron (17:01.181)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Slingshot Group (17:05.636)
And so we talk a lot about giving attention to the onboarding process. We also include in every search a resource for the first 90 days that is led by the supervisor. Sometimes we will be the coach, but it's important for the supervisor to be the hero. Because if you have an outside person coaching through the first 90 days, and sometimes it's needed and we do it and it's great, but sometimes that can cause...

Jenni Catron (17:23.217)
Right.

Slingshot Group (17:33.208)
it to be a bit of a therapy session about the dysfunction in the organization. And as we know, every organization has some level of dysfunction they need to keep in check. You work on that all the time, in the work that you do. But this resource is so important to us that we just include it in every search because we want the supervisor and the new team member to be intentional about how they engage.

Jenni Catron (17:36.84)
Sure.

Jenni Catron (17:49.191)
That's brilliant. Yeah.

Slingshot Group (17:59.214)
and how they learn the story of the organization, how their story fits in. mean, our favorite work is seeing how the mission of the leader and the mission of the organization line up and the stories intertwine. You've got to celebrate that in the first 90 days. You've got to lean into how you fit into that story. We need to do the constant work of assessing culture and how that person is fitting into culture. One of our co-founders,

Jenni Catron (18:11.272)
right?

Slingshot Group (18:25.072)
when a new person will join a slingshot team, always used to say, our culture just changed today. And being able to verbalize how it's changed and celebrate how it's changed because that new team member has joined. And so often we fall into the complacency trap of focusing only on the urgent and not working on the important work of healthy culture.

Jenni Catron (18:29.873)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Slingshot Group (18:50.554)
And that plays into retaining people because we've all talked about quiet quitting. We've all talked about quiet staying. We're hearing all of these new terms now and we've got to address it. And the only way we can address it is to keep working on healthy culture. So, so important. And that's going to be the answer to the risky stage, which is those first 90 days. Phil?

Jenni Catron (18:52.477)
Yeah. Yep.

Jenni Catron (18:58.548)
Yeah.

Jenni Catron (19:07.079)
So good. Yeah.

Jenni Catron (19:15.005)
Yeah.

Phil Bowdle (19:16.76)
Yeah, I just echo, mean, so much of what you said, Tim, dead on. I think, you know, we're definitely not seeing that as much in our work because we're able to help facilitate some of those blind spots that either the leader or the organization may have, which is part of the blessing we get to be able to be that set of eyes and everything. But I do think there is a decline and less of a stigma around leaders that are just going to stick it out because they don't want it to look bad on their resume.

Jenni Catron (19:26.631)
good.

Jenni Catron (19:42.195)
Hmm. Yeah.

Phil Bowdle (19:43.042)
that patience level is not as high. So it's not as unusual for the organizations or people like that's, that is a norm, you know, in the way of, of you're always building your team, you're never done. And as soon as you think you've done something, you know, somebody has a schedules a meeting and you're not done. So the best, most remarkable teams are always building. They're always leading. And especially when it comes to culture, the worst situations is when you talk to a leader that had to step away so quickly.

Jenni Catron (19:53.117)
That's right.

Phil Bowdle (20:11.478)
not because they didn't like the job or the opportunity, but it was because the culture was toxic. And what they told about the culture, what they told about the organization, is not what they showed. So it should always be show and tell. And that's the most important thing that we, that's why it's really important for stepping into a role that you're doing the interviewing as well, to make sure it's the right fit for you.

Jenni Catron (20:15.529)
Great.

Jenni Catron (20:24.359)
That's good.

Jenni Catron (20:31.624)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think that's the strength of, know, I've been in the seat, especially in a ministry context where, you know, budgets are lean, budgets are tight and you decide, okay, we're just going to, we're going to do the search on our own. And I think the beauty of being able to engage with slingshot, you know, is the third party who can really help you identify the things that you can't see, give you that support and that coaching to help.

reinforce those blind spots or illuminate the blind spots really more accurately. And I would just encourage folks, we always are kind of juggling all of those priorities and resources are a big part of the factor, but being able to have somebody help facilitate a good fit that really is a fit on both sides is such a gift. So when in doubt, yeah, go ahead.

Phil Bowdle (21:25.006)
Well, Jenni, thing to add to that is what we're finding is the days of posting and hoping are kind of over. There's the, we put it on the website, we just weren't getting the same applicants that we thought before. Often we're talking with organizations at that desperation stage and stuff, but posting and hoping is not going to work for a vast majority of organizations. And one of the things that we find so often is that it kind of takes a advocate, somebody that

Jenni Catron (21:41.266)
Yep. Yep.

It's not working anymore.

Phil Bowdle (21:54.156)
that is outside of the organization to say, Hey, I see this in you. I see everything that you're looking for in career opportunity, calling, you know, all these things fit really nicely with this organization that you've never heard of that's in a location that wasn't on your radar. But I see an opportunity here. Maybe you should have a conversation. Like it almost takes that level of relational network in different pools of people to make some of those connections that are not happening, happening as organically as they may be used to.

Jenni Catron (22:08.816)
That's good.

Jenni Catron (22:22.887)
That's really good.

Phil Bowdle (22:23.329)
and stuff. yeah.

Slingshot Group (22:23.696)
Yeah. When we get together as a team, Jenni, some of our favorite stories are those ones that Phil just talked about. When we went, we went back to a potential leader, a candidate and said, I know this wasn't on your list, your filter for where you want it to be, but you need to take a look at this because our number one, our number one value is spirit led. And often as associates, we're getting this nudging, Hey, go back and talk to this person.

Jenni Catron (22:28.957)
Mm-hmm.

Jenni Catron (22:37.917)
Mm-hmm.

That's fun.

Hmm.

Slingshot Group (22:49.732)
And that's the favorite part of our work. But going back to outsourcing search, it's false economy to think you're saving money doing it yourself. Because it's ministry hours. You are spending so many ministry hours managing a search that we have systems and processes for. And not only that, talking about how we, and we want to be the expert in your organization.

Jenni Catron (22:57.364)
Completely. I've made that mistake.

Jenni Catron (23:04.795)
Yep.

Jenni Catron (23:10.033)
And you're the experts in it. Yeah.

Jenni Catron (23:15.389)
Mm-hmm.

Slingshot Group (23:16.048)
We want to come in and get to know the unique thumbprint God has given you to place on building the kingdom and then go find the person. We extend your reach. Go find the person who's going to fit your culture to help move your remarkable mission forward.

Jenni Catron (23:30.75)
Yeah, that's so good. So good. I want to go back to something we kind of hit on a smidge, but you talked about the hiring manager and how critical it is for that hiring manager to be engaged with that employee those first 90 days, building that relationship, helping equip them, help them find their culture fit, et cetera. And that's one of the things I'm seeing a lot in our work is that a lot of the, what I'll say,

mid-level managers, not always the executive team, but like the people who are managing the other staff and even volunteers in the organization. There is a gap in competency when it comes to people management that is a big part of some of the erosion of culture in some cases, because those individuals just may have been promoted into managing others, but without any equipping of how to manage others well.

And so I'd love for you guys to maybe speak to that. you're seeing that, there's the age old Gallup research that says, we don't quit jobs, we quit bosses. And so I just be curious how you all respond to that. What do you see about helping ensure we're equipping our people managers to lead well? How are you coaching around that, et cetera?

Slingshot Group (24:50.246)
You start first, Phil. I'll follow up.

Phil Bowdle (24:53.026)
Yeah, mean, there's a lot of things come to mind, on that. Yeah, I mean, there's so much burden on the boss, honestly. what burdens me is, you know, a lot of the nonprofits, a lot of the churches, a lot of the leaders that are stepping into those roles are not stepping into that role with years and years of experience, saying, yeah, I'll just do what I did before. We're good.

Jenni Catron (24:57.226)
Sorry, I kind of gave you a big question, I?

Jenni Catron (25:04.049)
Yeah.

Jenni Catron (25:17.833)
That's right.

Phil Bowdle (25:21.26)
No, they're stepping in like, okay, I'm leveling up. I'm taking that step of faith and Lord help me. I don't know what I'm doing. Somebody like help me figure this out. And so I think all of us need a therapist and a coach. No doubt. Cause we all need somebody that sees something that we're not seeing and helps and is rooting for us and cheers on and, and, and setting us up for success.

Slingshot Group (25:35.759)
Amen.

Jenni Catron (25:36.285)
For sure.

Phil Bowdle (25:43.929)
But I think the best leaders and environments are ones where they're not trying to have all the answers. They're just trying to set themselves and their team up for success. Good leadership is just doing that. It's not always having the smartest answer. It's doing that. And I think when it comes to leaders that are leaving bosses, it's often when they feel like they think they have all the answers, but they don't. They don't even know how to ask the right questions. And so I feel the burden for the leaders so often because

Jenni Catron (25:53.961)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Jenni Catron (26:06.173)
Yeah.

Phil Bowdle (26:12.726)
the pipeline and so many of the roles in nonprofit and church ministry is not what it used to be. So it is taking a lot of people coming in to saying, okay, I'm the boss now or I'm the leader and I've got blind spots, but I gotta learn on the fly. And so I need people around me that are gonna encourage me and also the freedom to not always have the answer, but to just try to have the posture to ask the right question, to be able to help us all as a team goes somewhere remarkable.

Jenni Catron (26:18.269)
That's right.

Jenni Catron (26:27.827)
Yeah.

Jenni Catron (26:39.497)
That's great.

Slingshot Group (26:40.038)
Yeah. Jenni, it's interesting you hit on something that we hear a lot. We do executive leader cohorts. And often what most of them will say they need is management courses for their directors because they don't know how to manage. And what can happen there is what Phil said, they start to think they need to have all the answers and they absolutely don't have the answers. And they need to remember to listen and ask great questions.

Jenni Catron (26:46.387)
Mm.

Slingshot Group (27:08.486)
They need to practice care management and then manage care because connection is so important. If people don't feel like they're cared for, they're not gonna go after the mission for you. You know, that's the bedrock Jenni of healthy culture. So work you do. And then inviting buy-in and additional voices. Like if you're having regular one-on-ones with the people you're leading, let them drive the agenda. And then you just add the things that don't come up during the conversation.

Jenni Catron (27:11.337)
Mm-hmm.

Jenni Catron (27:18.377)
That's right.

Jenni Catron (27:29.704)
Yes.

Slingshot Group (27:34.064)
because that's the best way to find out where your team members are and the kind of support you need to give them and how you need to lead them and how you need to develop them. And then you getting additional voices as the leader in your life that can help you continue to manage and lead and coach in a healthy way.

Jenni Catron (27:38.589)
Good.

Jenni Catron (27:51.166)
So good. So good. love, I could, I could keep asking questions around that. Cause there's so many good nuggets in there. but I want to, I want to, have two questions to wrap up with, but this one first, you and I, think we've talked about this offline that we both, we all feel like we'd love to be in a scenario where we put ourselves out of a job that slingshot and foresight weren't necessary because teams were thriving and healthy. had amazing cultures.

everybody's in the right seat doing the right work. Our leaders are remarkable. We would love that. I would love for you guys to share what are some of the characteristics of the most remarkable teams? What are they doing? What are those leaders and those teams doing that would make us obsolete?

Slingshot Group (28:40.508)
I think they have a great sense of who they are. I think they realize that everything they do communicates their culture, everything they do. And so they're very intentional not to make assumptions. I think they prioritize connection and care. I think they give a ton of priority around taking risks and growing and having a culture where you can be free.

Jenni Catron (28:44.201)
Hmm.

Jenni Catron (28:50.844)
Mm-hmm.

Slingshot Group (29:09.212)
free to fail to learn to be better. I think that they are always, always keeping the mission in front of them and remembering their why so that people are inspired every day to keep moving forward in the most healthy way. They're not just words on a wall or your website. They actually drive everything you do. And you can see that flowing through the organization. Phil.

Jenni Catron (29:28.083)
Good.

Jenni Catron (29:35.091)
So good. That's a pretty good list, wasn't it?

Phil Bowdle (29:36.898)
How do you top that? No, that's great. So I'm not going to get the one thing. The thread underneath, think so much of that is conviction. You know, there's a lot of those functional teams out there that are doing good work. They are making it. They're maybe mixing from doing good to survival mode. That's a lot. But I think underneath all remarkable, the most remarkable is like a conviction that just drives them, that gets them up in the morning.

Slingshot Group (29:41.797)
I left you some.

Yeah.

Jenni Catron (29:47.141)
that's a good word. Yeah.

Jenni Catron (30:06.302)
good.

Phil Bowdle (30:06.422)
that helps them to know when to say yes and take that calculated risk, but also when to say no or when to hire, when to fire, when to turn down dollar signs just because it doesn't match that core conviction that they would stand for and do anything for. So I think underneath that, we need more leaders that are in that spot where they know their mission is their conviction.

Jenni Catron (30:31.87)
Love that.

Phil Bowdle (30:32.334)
and everything just aligns because when you have that, man, it's contagious. Like there's nothing better than seeing a leader just so fired up, not because of conviction about them, but a conviction that's bigger than them and a mission that's bigger than them. There's nothing more powerful than when you get to see that and experience that.

Jenni Catron (30:36.233)
Completely. Believe it.

Slingshot Group (30:51.782)
Jenni, I love how aligned we are around wanting to put ourselves out of a job. I call it, I call it.

Jenni Catron (30:55.178)
I was like, I'm really hoping that's what I remember I was having a conversation about, but.

Slingshot Group (31:00.646)
yeah, yeah. I call it the kingdom first principle. I imagine for you, it's seeing so many cultures that are healthy that then you start shifting your work to scaling them. And then for us, it's seeing organizations that are developing leaders from within. there's always a bench and people are eager to step up. I remember a mentor of mine

Jenni Catron (31:03.71)
Yes.

Jenni Catron (31:13.267)
Completely.

Jenni Catron (31:20.487)
Yes. Yep.

Yep.

Slingshot Group (31:29.112)
at Slingshot years ago saying, hey, if you're growing this organization, you won't be doing the same job in a couple of years. That's been my story. That's been Phil's story. Yeah, it's encouraging this internal farm system where we're raising up leaders and some of those leaders are going out to other organizations and helping those organizations move forward. But you've always got that bench. And so that's our eternal vision. And we just keep our eyes fixed on that.

Jenni Catron (31:35.037)
Completely true. Yep.

Jenni Catron (31:52.638)
Yep. Yep. Yeah. I love it so much. I love it. this is so good. You guys tell everybody how they can learn more about what you guys do, where to connect, et cetera. Send them all the places they need to go.

Slingshot Group (32:06.108)
Come on,

Phil Bowdle (32:07.726)
Our biggest thing is we want you to know we just were in your corner. So if you if you have an issue when it comes to staffing coaching any of that more than anything else, when you know you can reach out, we'd love to just have you back and support you. Go to slingshot group.org where you can find out more about staffing and coaching. But on there as well you'll find information about podcasts that Jenni you've been an amazing guest on as well and get to learn learn from you and so many others that we're learning from.

as well, but all of it is really just to help you be the remarkable team that can help accomplish that remarkable mission. yeah, any of those things would be an option to be able to learn more about us and connect with us.

Jenni Catron (32:44.937)
You guys, thank you so much. Thanks for your heart to invest in leaders, to help build great teams, ultimately to help us accomplish the mission God's called us to. So, so appreciate the work that y'all do and really grateful you join me today.

Slingshot Group (32:59.132)
Thanks, Jenni. Appreciate you two and all you do.

Phil Bowdle (33:00.28)
Thank you.