289 | The Power of Clarity in Leadership

In this episode of LeadCulture, Jenni Catron returns to one of the most overlooked yet powerful tools in a leader’s toolkit: the organizational chart. But this isn’t your typical HR conversation. Jenni unpacks how org charts—when designed with intention—become a strategic force for clarity, culture, and communication.

You’ll hear how a clear structure empowers better decision-making, aligns your team with purpose, and eliminates confusion around roles and responsibilities. Jenni also explores the hidden symptoms of dysfunctional org charts—like miscommunication, burnout, and power struggles—and gives leaders practical insight into designing charts that truly serve their mission.

Whether you’re leading a team of 5 or 500, this episode will reframe the way you view organizational structure and inspire you to lead with clarity and confidence.

"A well-designed org chart isn’t red tape—it’s a roadmap to team health, clarity, and mission-aligned leadership."

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Transcript

Well, hey friend, welcome to Lead Culture with yours truly, Jenny Catron. I am so glad you're here today and looking forward to a conversation today about a topic that I kind of geek out about. Other people don't always find it quite as interesting, but I'm going to give you perspective on why I think this is one of the most important things you can be talking about. What is it? Organizational charts. And not just any organizational chart.

But an organizational chart that works, that helps you design a chart that aligns and powers and unlocks your team. Because I deeply believe that leading your team is one of the most critical things you can do right now. I think that's always been true, but I'm gonna tell you a little bit more in this episode why I think investing in the health of your team and your culture is going to be a differentiator. I think it's a competitive advantage right now. And you as a leader need to be giving disproportionate time to the health of your culture. 

So today let's talk about organizational charts that work. See, here's what I believe. I believe that building a team that is aligned and achieving mission together is one of the greatest joys of leadership. Like as leaders, we have this unique opportunity and unique responsibility that we are both responsible for stewarding the mission vision of the organization that we serve and also stewarding the unique gifts and talents of the people that are assembled to help us achieve that mission. And when those two things collide, when we're doing both of those things well, I think we see extraordinary impact. building a team that is aligned and achieving mission together is one of my greatest joys as a leader. So how do you effectively design the team?

To support the needs of the organization, as well as cater to the unique gifts of each team member, right? How do you hold those two things in tension? How do you honor the commitment of current staff while expanding the team to meet the demands of the future? We feel that tension a lot when we're doing organizational structures and maybe some change. A well-designed organizational chart is not a necessary evil of organizational life. I think sometimes they get a bad rap. Like we feel like it's just this bureaucratic tool to make HR happy.

Rather, I believe it is a life-giving tool for clarity, alignment, good decision-making, and it's the engine for accomplishing our mission. So I wanna give you just a few things to get you thinking today, and hopefully it's even some language and perspective that helps you have maybe a healthier perspective on what a great organizational chart does.

Jenni Catron (05:25.888)
And it might give you some language to share maybe with your leader. If you sit somewhere in the middle of the organization or in a second chair, you're like, I get it, but my leader doesn't get it. Hopefully I give you a bit of language that can help you open the conversation more. And when you're talking with your team, know, our teams are always a little nervous about organizational charts. And I'm going to tell you why that is in a minute. But my hope is that as I share this with you, it will give you some insight into the language that you can use to help kind of.

shape or reframe everyone's perspective on organizational charts. So personally, I've never met an org chart I didn't like. I love them. They fascinate me. I geek out at the opportunity to help leaders think through their org chart and align their team in a way that helps them achieve their mission. That's how I see it. But I realize that's not how everybody sees it. So I'm hoping I'm going to bring you with me on my philosophy here today. And it might be a little weird. I might be a little bit of a geek about these things, but they're really two really good

reasons why org charts energize me and why I think they should energize you. The first is that they reflect the sacred privilege we have as leaders to steward the resources of the people that God has entrusted to us. Let me say that again. A great org chart reflects the sacred privilege we have as leaders to steward the resources of the people that God has entrusted to us. You've heard me talk before about how leadership is sacred work because as leaders, we are influencers.

As influencers, we have the power to change or affect others. If we have the power to change or affect others, that is very sacred work. And so an org chart reflects that sacred privilege. Secondly, a well-designed org chart empowers us to accomplish our mission. Simple as that, helps us understand that sacred privilege we have and it empowers us to accomplish our mission. See hidden behind a bunch of boxes connected by lines are people and purpose.

Sometimes we just look at this org chart with the boxes and lines and all the structure stuff that we're trying to organize there. And we just, that's all we see. We've lost the human that is behind it. So it's people and purpose are behind that structure that we're trying to create. These two things are foundational to effectively accomplishing our mission. We need people and we need a purpose.

Jenni Catron (07:46.942)
And in fact, I would say you need that more than ever. You may go back and listen. I can't remember what episode it is, but I talk about the three building blocks of success. You can also find this on the website. I say it's purpose, people and plan or purpose, culture and strategy. We need the purpose and the people parts to be strong so that we can figure out the strategy for moving forward. Shoring up clarity of purpose and clarifying our culture are, think, again, are going to be the differentiators in us being able to succeed in.

the season ahead of us as leaders. And one of the things I want you to think about as we talk about org charts is that org charts really should be a structure to support our strategy. So really understanding, okay, what's our mission? Why do we exist? Then what's the strategy to achieve that? We wanna build the organization chart with that in mind, that mission and vision. We need that mission, vision and strategy in mind. Then we wanna build an org chart that supports that. I'm gonna help you kind of look at some ways to do that as we go.

So why don't we like org charts? Typically it's because org charts are created in reaction to a problem or as an afterthought to a system that has already been established, albeit typically informally and often haphazardly. So we often don't like org charts because we're being reactive. We're reacting to a situation, we're reacting to somebody on the team not working well with somebody else. And so we try to like organize it on an org chart or we're reacting to

things have gotten complex and people are complaining because they don't know who to go to or how to get decisions made or something. And so we kind of reactively just create an org chart and kind of hope it all sorts itself out. We don't like org charts when people use them to wield power over us. So sometimes that's why we don't like org charts. We don't like them when they're inaccurate.

We don't like it if we don't have one, but we don't also don't like it if we have one. We don't like them when they're no longer working and they force us to recognize that changes need to be made. And we're like, and there's people a part of that process and that's going to get complex. So we don't like them for that reason. But here's the power of an org chart. It provides clarity. And I'm going to tell you a little bit more in a minute why that matters. But clarity is a chief indicator of the health of a culture. You've heard me talk about that a lot, especially last month, I was focusing on clarity.

Jenni Catron (10:03.502)
Clarity is a chief indicator of the health of a culture. And so an organizational chart is a piece of that like clarity puzzle, if you will. Let me give you a little insight in what is typically happening for most organizations. An organization starts with a founding leader and that founding leader usually has a couple of eager, do whatever it takes, hardworking, early adopters who wear whatever hat is necessary to get the job done and move the mission forward.

Right? So it's just that founding leader, a small group of people who are, are like passionate about the purpose and they'll kind of just figure it out. There's no org chart. There aren't job descriptions for sure. Everyone generally and instinctively understands their role and they just make it happen. Have you been a part of a team like that? It's actually quite fun if you enjoy that stage of organizational life. So for some people that's crazy making, but for some of you, especially oftentimes leaders.

We like the chaos of the early stages. We love the building process. And so that typically means, hey, we don't have time for all the clarity. We just need to get a great group of people around us and we'll figure it out. And there's something quite energizing about that oftentimes for leaders. And that's fine because right now this informal amoeba of an org chart, if you will, actually it serves its purpose, right? It isn't complicated. It's just generally understood.

We don't really need to be that formal. In fact, too formal at this stage, you would just serve to undermine the extreme flexibility needed for that stage of organizational life. Hear me in this in that if you're a small in a startup's mode, don't try to over-structure yourself right now. A little clarity is really powerful. That's okay. The problem is most of you stay there. Most of you stay there and your team has now grown to even five or seven or 10.

you've grown beyond being able to operate with essentially no org chart. So before too long, there's a boardroom full of team members and conversations around clarity of roles and responsibilities become a growing tension. So as soon as it's not just three or four of you in the room, as soon as it's a larger group of people, you start to feel the tension of, don't know my role or responsibility. Balls get dropped because we thought that that was

Jenni Catron (12:23.168)
someone else's responsibility. Well, isn't someone supposed to do that? I didn't think that was my responsibility. So you start hearing that language. Deadlines get missed because, no one ever told me. Well, no one told me that. I didn't know I was supposed to do that. Power struggles emerge because, well, I don't report to him or I don't report to her or they think they have authority over somebody else that they don't have authority over. Before too long, the team has grown even a smidge. It's not a lot. It doesn't take much, half a dozen or more.

team members and you start to feel these tensions organizationally. And it's often at this stage that the senior leader kind of an exasperation slap some titles on a few leaders. And typically the leaders that are closest to them that they trust and respect. We kind of just hope it sorts itself out, right? Like it's kind of an annoyance. All right, everybody needs clarity. Everybody needs to know their role and responsibility. Okay, I'll slap some titles on you, put some lines and boxes on a page and hope it all sorts itself out. In fact, the leader really doesn't have the margin to give

this, the, seems like unnecessary time and attention because they're in that scrappy startup stage that is requiring all their energy right now. So they're focused on growing the business or the ministry and just trying to make it sustainable, right? So there's a ticking time clock on sustainability and it feels frivolous to that leader to deal with petty squabbles over power and position. I want you to hear this because this is how it is perceived oftentimes by senior leaders.

when your team is asking for clarity on roles and responsibility, we hear it oftentimes as petty squabbles over power and position. There might be some of that, but by and large, what they're asking for is they're asking for clarity. And again, I'm going to tell you why that matters so much here in a little bit. So this is where the problem really begins for us because this reactional makeshift org chart becomes the template that all future org charts are built on, right? So we built this little primitive sketch

pretty quickly, pretty path hazardly. And now we just keep adding to it. We weren't strategic, we weren't intentional with the first draft. And now that's what we're building everything off of. So we've created really kind of a monster. Year after year, we make adjustments to this draft without ever considering the structure and the system needed for achieving mission. Because remember, we built it as a reaction to people begging for clarity rather than.

Jenni Catron (14:46.358)
an intentional structure to support our strategy. You see where the different approach starts to make all the difference here. We've created an org chart that appeased the frustrations in the immediate rather than creating an org chart that strategically solved for mission outcomes. It is a very big difference and it's critical for us to understand. It's a case of reacting in the moment rather than being intentional in the development. So we find ourselves facing like this

Frankenstein creation, right? It's just kind of, keep adding on and bolting on and it's just, it's a monster that barely makes sense to those who created it. Think about that for a minute. Like you barely understand it and it is incomprehensible to someone outside your system. So what I'd love for you to do, you might even just pause here for a minute, is to pause and like go sketch your org chart. And for some of you, you've done more work on this and so it's clear.

And for others of you, you're gonna be kind of making it up because you've never really put it on paper. But I want you to go sketch your org chart. And then I wanna ask you this question. If you just handed it to me, would I understand it? And we'll come back to that in a minute. But I'd love for you to just kind of pause for a minute, go ahead and sketch it out just so you've got that picture in front of you as we continue the conversation. So here is why I think as leaders, we have a responsibility

to provide clarity in the org chart. And it's why I think that when our team members are asking for that clarity, that it's not as much of a power struggle and jacking for position as we sometimes perceive it to be, but it's more about their desire to understand their place. And leaders, we need to hear this and really listen to this because one of our core human desires or our needs is belonging. And one of the chief

elements of having a sense of belonging is finding purpose in what we do. So remember I said a good org chart is all about people and purpose. So finding purpose in what we do is really important. Let me give you a little caveat here. We are in a really critical era, probably worldwide, but particularly in our organizations where people are reevaluating where they want to work, why they want to work, what they want to do.

Jenni Catron (17:04.225)
they're saying, I want to do things with more meaning and purpose. And there's some really good data coming out about this that I hope to share before too long. They're longing for meaning and purpose and they're making new decisions about where they give the best hours of their day based upon meaning and purpose. And so we need to fight for clarity, fight for giving team members the clarity they need to understand our purpose and their place in our organization.

We have a need for belonging and having a sense of belonging is often found in clarity of purpose. When we have a purpose for what we do, that gives us a sense of belonging. So when someone joins your team, they are joining because they are looking for a place to belong and a place to be a part of a purpose. A place to bring their strengths and gifts to contributing to accomplish a great mission. That is why people want to be a part of your organization. Even if that's not what they they articulate.

At our core, that is a longing for, I would say all of us, but let's say most all of us. This is why this matters because something that seems as simple and as complicated as a great organizational chart can begin to provide them a sense of place and purpose. See, the org chart is one of the tangible ways that we can show people where they fit and how they contribute. The problem with our poorly designed org charts is they usually come with exceptions that undermine the clarity they are meant to provide.

Let me say that again. The problem with our poorly designed organizational charts is that they usually come with exceptions that undermine the clarity that they were actually meant to provide. Yikes. So classic examples are the veteran team member who still has a VP title, but more and more responsibilities have been redistributed because the role outgrew him or her, but we didn't have the heart to tell them.

or to hire anyone over them, right? So we didn't wanna have the hard conversation. We didn't want to have the important conversation about, this role over here is actually the better fit for you. And I understand you expect you would just kind of grow into higher levels of leadership, but those different levels of leadership require different skills and gifts. And that's not a great fit for you. But here's why we wanna keep you in this role because...

Jenni Catron (19:23.956)
This is really aligned with your strengths and gifts, and this is the best way you can contribute to the purpose of the organization. Now, don't say that being manipulative, like you have to believe that has to be true and congruent with what you believe. But again, this is back to our stewardship of our people and the stewardship of our purpose and that our org chart should reflect that. We have to be willing to make sure that we are not just keeping people in positions to make them happy, but we are putting them in the right positions for both their benefit and the organization's not always easy.

requires really some difficult conversations. But when we allow things like that to happen in the org chart, it muddies the picture. We're losing the clarity that we're actually trying to provide. Here's another classic example. The senior leader who has a long time friend who has a specialty job description written specifically for what that person does and wants to do, wants to do being a key one. This happens a lot.

and reports directly to the senior leader, bypassing all typical chain of command. So it's a complete exception in the organizational structure. And here's what's happening. That person might be happy and the senior leader might even like it because it's somebody they know and they love and they just want them in close proximity. But it undermines the understanding of the rest of the team. And it actually really hurts culture because they see us as leaders making exceptions and kind of playing favorites. And so they don't trust the structure and they don't trust the leaders. When we lack

clarity and when the org chart has exceptions because of some of those nuances, it causes us to lose trust with our team, but it also just removes some of the clarity that the org chart is supposed to provide. Let me give you some symptoms of an org chart that needs clarity. I already told you some of them, I'm just going to bullet point them. Symptoms of an org chart that needs clarity. First, it just doesn't exist. It's non-existent. If you don't have an org chart and you have more than two or three people on your team, it's time for an org chart. The second one is

It's ambiguous. You sketched it out for me and you handed it over and I was like, I do not understand who does what or who reports to whom or how anything gets done. If it's not clear, it's time to bring clarity. So it's ambiguous. Number three, it's incorrect. So it's not actually how we work. So we have an org chart, but it's not really how we work. Everyone knows who they actually go to.

Jenni Catron (21:37.784)
to get something done. So they might report to somebody, but they never go to the person that they technically report to on the org chart because that's not how we do things or how we get things done. So it's just incorrect. It exists, but it's incorrect. And then the fourth is it's just ignored. So it exists. It might be correct, but we ignore it because we kind of just do our own thing and we don't really care. So symptoms of an org chart that needs clarity is it's non-existent, it's ambiguous, it's incorrect, or it's ignored. Org charts are not something to fear.

And that's what I want you to take away from today. They should be something we welcome. And here's the thing, you guys, if you sit at the top of the org chart, you will often place less value on the need for the structure because everything is clearer at the top. And so since you have a clear view and it feels clear to you, you assume everyone else does. I mean, if it's clear to you, it might have some murkiness below. If it's fuzzy to you, it is a blackout throughout the rest of the team.

And here's another thing that when you sit at the top of the org chart, you control the strings and you wield the majority of the power. So you're in a position of power. So you become blinded to the confusion and the chaos that lives within the rest of the structure. And so you have to recognize that if you're a more senior leader in your team, it will feel clearer to you than it feels to the rest of the team. So, lest you be tempted to think that org charts are unnecessary,

let me caution you that that attitude is one informed by the very privilege of your seat of power within the organization. So if you don't think it's necessary because it's clear for you, it's because you sit in a position where you have the power to influence it and not having a posture of understanding for that value, for the value that a clearly defined organizational chart provides for your team is a miss, right? If we don't get the value of this and the importance of it to our team, it's not about us, it's about our team, then we're missing out.

on a key piece of leadership. So your team needs clarity. You know it, they know it, and the organizational chart isn't a bureaucratic instrument required to appease HR or whomever else might be asking for it. The organizational chart is a living, breathing reflection of the collection of humans entrusted to your care who are partnering with you in the achievement of your mission.

Jenni Catron (23:52.918)
If you hear nothing else, I want you to get this, that it is a living, breathing reflection of that collection of humans entrusted to your care who are partnering with you for the achievement of your mission. And if a simple structure can help give them clarity, why not? Why not? A well-designed org chart is a lifeline to a growing, thriving organization. Now, it kind of has a bunch of threads then that we can chase, right? Because a clearly designed org chart begins to help us.

understand how we make decisions, how we communicate, et cetera. And I want to tell you that before we finish this discussion today. Here's a couple of things to think about. If you're struggling to achieve mission, it's probably time to look at your org chart. If you're frustrated because team members are not taking initiative, it's time to reevaluate your org chart. If you're constantly refereeing conflicts between team members, it's time to reevaluate your org chart. So just a couple things to get you think

Honestly, I think most leaders right now need to be rethinking their org charts. Now, some of you might have done this. You might have, with the impact of all the transitions these last couple of years, you might have moved people around quite a bit just trying to figure out, you know, what do we need to focus on and just giving people jobs because some things that they historically did maybe haven't had as much priority. And so you just try to move things around. At the risk of creating more upheaval, I want you to consider whether you...

actually move them around and restructured based on strategy is your strategy driving how you structure your team. So for today, I want to give you five things that a great organizational chart does. Five things that it does. And then in next week's episode, I'm going to give you a bit more of the how. How do you structure for strategy? But for today, what a great org chart does, it provides clarity for my role and my place.

on the team and that's for every team member. That a good org chart provides clarity for my role and my place on the team. I know where I fit. I know my relationship to everyone else on the team. I have clarity around that. Secondly, it clarifies my authority and responsibility. So I know my role and then I also understand my authority and my responsibility. So if I am at a director level, I know the authority and the responsibility that comes with that. Now that provides additional clarity. So that's a little, you know, kind of

Jenni Catron (26:16.046)
2.0, but it helps me understand my authority and responsibility as a team member. The third thing a clarified organizational chart does is it provides clarity for communication. Who needs to know what and when? Who are the people that like peers organizationally that I need to make sure I looped into decisions I make? A good organizational chart is going to provide clarity for those communication systems. Number four, a

Great organizational chart provides clarity for meeting structure. Who's responsible? It tells us who's responsible, right? So then who's responsible informs who needs to be in what meetings. What's the purpose of the meeting? So who needs to be there based upon who's responsible for whatever it might be. And then the fifth is that a great organizational chart provides clarity for decision-making. Who makes the decisions and how do they make them? Who do I go to when I need a decision, right?

when there's a clear organizational chart and it's informed authority and responsibility, then we understand who has the decision making authority. So I want to pause for right there because I've given you a lot to think about. And the first thing I really want you to wrestle with is do you see organizational structure as an opportunity for you to pair people with purpose, right? That you are assembling a team of individuals of unique

valuable, amazing individuals, and you're aware of how do I best steward them and put them in seats that are most life-giving and the best fit for their gifts and strengths in tandem with making sure that that organizational structure helps us achieve our purpose, right? That that is the real meat of it is that that org chart helps us achieve our purpose. So people and purpose are the heart of an organizational chart. And then

I want you to consider, okay, you sketched your org chart. Did it exist at all? Now it does. So you've at least eclipsed that hurdle, but is it ambiguous? Is it incorrect? Is it ignored? And really challenging yourself with what's confusing about our org chart right now. And then understanding that a great org chart provides clarity for role and place on the team, authority and responsibility, communication, meeting structure, and decision-making. And then next week, I'm going to start giving you some insight into how.

Jenni Catron (28:37.71)
How do you build that structure to support your strategy with an awareness of your team in mind? I hope that's helpful. I hope you stayed with me since I'm picking up a topic that feels like it could be a bit of a snoozer, but I actually think it is extraordinarily powerful. And here's the thing, like I said earlier, we have a very unique opportunity to attract and retain the best talent because we serve a great purpose. You believe in the purpose of your organization.

And people are longing to be a part of something with purpose and with a healthy culture. You have control of that. There's a ton of things we don't have control of, but you have control as a leader of, we giving clarified purpose? And then am I building a culture that is attractive and is retaining great people that they don't want to leave because they're like, this is amazing. I'm doing something with meaning and purpose and I'm using my gifts to accomplish that. getting good feedback. I understand my place. That's what an org chart.

can provide. give that some thought this week and then next week I'll give you some more how as you begin to reevaluate, I'll help you reevaluate how, how do you dig into that and how do you build a structure that supports your mission? So friends, keep leading well. Thank you for listening. I really would appreciate if you would rate, review, subscribe. That is a huge help because we want to keep equipping leaders to be healthy and thriving and to build extraordinary teams. Keep leading well friends and I'll see you next week.

Thank you for listening to the Lead Culture Podcast with Jenni Catron, brought to you by 4Sight. At 4Sight, we are cultivating healthy leaders to lead thriving organizations. If you have any questions, please email us at podcast at getforsyte.com. That's the word podcast at get the number four site.com. If this content has helped you in any way, we'd love it if you would share this with your friends and on social networks.

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