The 7% Club
The 7% Club
Episode 33: Strategies for Better Leadership with Janine Sudbury
In this episode of The 7% Club Podcast, Jenny Stilwell speaks with Janine Sudbury, a former broadcast journalist for BBC and National Radio. Janine has transitioned from a career in media and politics to creating one of the most unique leadership training centers in New Zealand. She developed Impact Leadership, a groundbreaking program that uses horses to teach leadership skills in a highly experiential and transformative way.
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Hi there, this is Jenny Stilwell and welcome to the 7% Club podcast. For the 7% of business owners who break through 2 million in sales and for those on track to join this club, this podcast is to help you upscale.
UNKNOWN:Music
SPEAKER_00:In today's episode of the 7 Percent Club podcast, I'm talking with Janine Sudbury. Janine is a former broadcast journalist for BBC and National Radio and has created one of the most unique leadership training centres in New Zealand. She has a BA in Philosophy and Politics, has worked in Congress in Washington DC and she's used these experiences to develop Impact Leadership, a groundbreaking leadership development program where individuals are faced with guiding a horse Hi Janine, how are you? Hi, Jenny. I'm fine and dandy. Thank you. How are you? I'm fine and dandy as well. I'm glad to hear you've been out on the golf course this morning. Fabulous.
SPEAKER_01:I have. Thank you very much. It's good to get your exercise in, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. And, you know, we just added to one of your many talents.
SPEAKER_01:You'll have to remind me what my many talents
SPEAKER_00:are. Well, we're just going to talk about it. So I thought before we get into what you do and your core leadership business, I I just wanted to ask you, your background is as a BBC journalist and someone who's worked in Washington DC, very, very different from what you do now. So I'm fascinated to know how you've been able to make that whole life and business shift, you know, life and career move going to New Zealand. So how did all of that happen? And how have you created this fantastic new opportunity in New Zealand?
SPEAKER_01:So many questions, Jenny. I literally don't know where to start other than to say I am an adventurer and I've always loved that line in the great Gatsby where he talks about Gatsby sucking the pap out of life and that has always been my mission fantastic yeah so when I was working at the BBC I just sort of felt I felt I needed a change I felt I needed to go and have an adventure and then maybe come back and I ended up in New Zealand and I My first experience was meeting a girl called Shane at the Backpackers and she said, come tramping with me. She was from Canada. And I was like, what's tramping? And we ended up in the Abel Tasman. That was the start of my love affair with New Zealand because I had never seen such amazing countryside before where there was no person there. It was deserted, whereas in Britain, there would have been heaps of cars down every side road. And before long, I had a job at National Radio. So I continued in my journalism. And within a year, I had my own program. And I suppose what you're asking me is, how did I do that shift from journalism into leadership? And it really was a fluke, I suppose. Yeah. But I say a fluke, but I look around at people I know and they all seem to have ended up where they ought to end up, knowing the skills and passion they have. And I look at my life and I feel it's exactly the same. I've ended up doing what I needed to do. And the skills that I learned as a journalist and going to Washington and I'm using them all the time. I'm using them, you know, leadership's about better communication. It's about making sure you've been understood. It's about reading other people. As a journalist, you have to read your guest. to get the best out of them. You have to know when to increase your energy so they increase theirs. And likewise, you have to know when to slow it down to stop them gabbling. And all of these skills I use when I'm working with a group and guiding them through to becoming better leaders. It's all about reading and understanding people and bringing out the best in them. And that's exactly what I'm trying to get them to do with their horse. So it goes full circle and I feel... I'm exactly where I need to be right now. And thank goodness I did journalism. It gave me so much confidence and so many skills that I'm using now.
SPEAKER_00:It's amazing, isn't it? I mean, you and I have touched on this before, but it is such a wonderful thing that you get to a certain point in your career and your life. And you do, you go, I'm exactly where I'm meant to be. Everything has come together. All the pieces of the puzzle have finally come together and you love what you do and you do it well because there's many years of practice and persistence behind you and it's really wonderful to be in that place. Now, I know that you have, and we'll talk about the leadership business in a minute, but you have several businesses, don't you? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I seem to have ended up with businesses and I keep starting new ones because I'm like, oh, that would be a good idea. Let's try this.
SPEAKER_00:The eternal entrepreneur. I think I am, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Which one did you start first? Okay, well, the one I started first is no longer going, thank the Lord, because that was a doozy. So with another horse person we were doing, we started out sort of fixing a lot of problem horses and working with racehorses and... training our own racehorses. And, you know, I don't think anyone should have racehorses unless they've got a lot of money behind them because it was like a money pit. So that was not a good business. And in the meantime, we were doing some leadership work. programs. And I was really sort of, they were evolving. I was writing them and tweaking them. And there was a lot of work going into that. And that would have been, I think that's over 20 years ago now. So my story is a bit of a riches to rags to riches story, because in the meantime, I got pregnant with the other horse person and had a baby. And then the shit hit the fan, really. The And I was living on this farm. I didn't want to go back into journalism because I wanted to raise my child. And that's when this bright idea, I had a light bulb moment, let's convert the stables into a wedding venue. And so I went to the bank and I borrowed a lot of money. way too much money. You could not borrow that much money these days. There's too many guidelines. But in those days, they were handing it out as if it was going out of fashion. So I then... Didn't know what I was doing. That was a big move. It was. But this is, you know what you talked about? You said, oh, I'm the typical entrepreneur always starting up businesses. I didn't know it then, but I am a typical entrepreneur. I love taking risks. I often don't think things through properly. I just, I get bored of detail. I'm like, oh, let's just do it. And luckily for me, it actually worked out very well indeed. So I'm very grateful. So I now run weddings, events, corporate events. events and Christmas parties and team building and all of that jazz. And in the meantime, I've also developed a property on my farm and offer luxury accommodation. So yes, it's sort of, but it's good because they're all interlinked. And I'm using all the skills that I've learned over the years in my leadership. I use those with my brides and grooms. So, you know, it's all about managing expectations, having clear boundaries. Really developing deep and meaningful relationships because these are the people you're going to be working closely with over the next year and a half. And building the trust. The trust and respect is everything. It's everything when you're running events and it's everything when you're learning how to be a better leader.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. And so those three main businesses, you're involved in all of those three. The leadership program, obviously. I'm very hands-on. Yeah, that would keep you pretty busy.
SPEAKER_01:They do keep me very busy. Prior to COVID, I wasn't hands-on in the wedding and events business. I got somebody else in to run those. But after COVID, there was a big shift and hospitality in New Zealand has really gone down the gurgler. I'm hoping it will have another boost in a year's time, but at the moment it's pretty flat. So that's one reason why I'm working in the business. But the other reason is it's my name on the sign outside. And I think As a leader of my team and as the face of my business, I like to really set very high standards and I like to do it by working on the job, by doing all the jobs and inspiring my people to do the same. And I think that's why we consistently get so many amazing testimonials. Because we all care. I care. And then that trickles down to my staff. It's very important, isn't it? It is. It's everything, especially, you know, my business is not huge. It's a small business and it's not a sausage machine. So every client matters. And that's really, you know, how I want my staff to see our customers, that every customer matters.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And let's talk about this leadership program because I'm fascinated in this. Are you? And I really am because I know I'm sure the initial response from a lot of people is, but I can't ride. You know, I'm not a horse person. But it's not about that.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's not about that because nobody gets to ride the horse, even though sometimes in my feedback forms, they sort of say, I ask the question, what would have improved the program? And sometimes they say, oh, riding the horse. Having said that, I don't think that would have improved their experience because the horses that we borrow, some of them are complete nutcases. You definitely wouldn't want to be riding them. You wouldn't last very long. Do you match horses to people? I do. I match horses to people. It's like... Dating. I get a brief from the leader's manager. I get a brief from the horse's owner. I tend to try and match them according to energy. So racehorses, thoroughbreds, they're pretty fizzy. They're sensitive to move. They can be quite scary because they're all over the shop. They don't concentrate well. I like to match... those horses with people who are not very good at sticking to standards. People who need to learn to hold their space. People pleasers. They're brilliant. Because if they don't hold their space and people pleasers often find it very challenging to do that, the horse literally drags them around the arena. So they have no choice. They have to stand their ground and stick to their boundaries or leave the arena. And so far, no one has left the arena. And that's why we get such rapid transformation because they now understand how to stick to their boundaries and why they have to and how good it feels to when they liberate themselves from the burden of being a people pleaser or having imposter syndrome. The sluggish, half-dead horses with zero energy like the donkeys, that kind of thing, I match with people who are really low energy because there are occasions when you have to lift your energy and plodding around... Not inspiring your people is not going to get you very far. So when they are having to drag the donkey and realizing that unless they do something, this is going to be a really long two days. Again, they are being pushed out of that comfort zone and they learn the power of inspiration. lifting and lowering energy and how you people feed off that. Horses feed off it and so do people. And what a powerful tool that is. And this is just, you know, I'm simplifying the process for you, but I'm giving you a little bit of an idea about how the horses, how they mirror the humans and how the humans need to then lift their game to bring the horses along behind them.
SPEAKER_00:And what about the more driven horses? You know, those that are kind of, let's do it my way. I do know, like, yeah,
SPEAKER_01:well, I mean, I have the most driven leader was amazing. Steve Hansen, the former All Black coach came on the program. Now, he is such a domineering leader. He was dominant within the group. And this was a group of Olympic coaches, New Zealand's finest coaches ever. And Steve was dominating them. That's just his personality. He has a huge personality. And I matched him with a complete nutcase called Billy. She was still in training as a racehorse. And the first day was spent with Steve thinking, I'm going to do what I do in every situation. I'm going to dominate this horse. It's my way or the highway. And what he didn't realize is that you can't dominate half a ton of horse flesh because she is just as feisty and domineering as he was. And so they fought all day.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. How fascinating.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was. And he was way too aggressive and she was rearing up. It wasn't working at all. They got nowhere. And then Steve must have had a really big think overnight because he came in and completely changed his style on day two and he started softening and when Billy got things right he'd stop and give her feedback and let her know and he lowered his energy and then she lowered her energy and before you knew it Steve had become he'd created a safe space for Billy around him and she then followed him anywhere and on day two he successfully got her over some pretty hairy obstacles because The relationship had been built. You can't go in there, it's my way or the highway. It turns people off. It turns horses off. You have to learn how to bring out the best in the horse. And that's what Steve learned. And then it was only a couple of years later that New Zealand won the World Cup. And... About seven years after that, I met up with Steve and I said, oh, can I do a video testimonial? And I said, am I responsible, Steve, for the World Cup win? And he didn't say no. He's very polite, Steve. That's my training probably. But he didn't say yes
SPEAKER_00:either. But I think he implied it was a team effort. And do you have a follow-up training? Like obviously people walk away with amazing insights and learnings and, you know, they walk away as different leaders. Are there follow-ups so that they come back and those, you know, what they've gone away with is actually entrenched and they take it on board forever?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you're absolutely right because, you know, there probably are a number of courses where people get really hyped and excited. But the key to any training program is how you embed it into your daily life. And so people get... nine emails, one a fortnight with tasks based on the seven principles. So each week we address a different principle and people have to do tasks in their work life. And at the end, they get a one-on-one coaching session with me. And also I do ask people to take ownership for the success of the program. So I give them sort of various takeaways that they can, like a little card with the principles. And I say, look, you have to take responsibility for looking at this card, for checking in on the principles, keeping yourself honest with your goals. We do make leadership goals. So it's a collaboration, really. You know, I'm not the teacher, I'm the guide. I am quite a tough guide and I'm a very blunt guide and I'm a very truthful and passionate guide. But at the end of the day, it is their journey and their leaders and they do need to step up and step into that leadership space and take what they've learned and run with it and don't just go,
SPEAKER_00:oh, I'm too busy. I imagine there's quite a lot of frustration and tears possibly on day one. There are tears, yes. There are tears and
SPEAKER_01:because it is very confronting. It's frustrating. It's like peeling an onion, really. I think in a way that's what we do is that we're really sort of having a good look inside. It's funny because when I see the leaders with the horses within the first two minutes, I know exactly what they're like at work. I see it. And it's about holding a mirror up so people can see themselves and see what sort of impression they make on others. That's a really important part of the programme. I video everything. And we do video analysis three times. And it's funny, every single time people say, I didn't think I looked like that. I thought I carried myself with more energy. I thought I looked like a leader, but I don't look like a leader. And this is an amazing tool because by the end of it, the body language, the confidence, the energy is fantastic. I mean, I don't know how else you would teach that other than with the horses. So there are often tears. To be honest, I get more tears at the end of the two days when people... look back and think about the lessons that they have learned, how they have changed. It's so emotional. To feel so liberated from fear is such a wonderful feeling. People are so looking forward to getting back to work and practicing everything they've learned. It's like the phoenix rising from the ashes. You know, they feel they've been pulled to pieces and then by the end, they feel renewed and excited. And I think... what they realize is that the only thing holding them back has been themselves. And they don't have to put up with that anymore. They can go forward with strength and courage and excitement and positivity. So I think they're the gifts that they get from this program.
SPEAKER_00:And are there any people, like I remember back in the day, very early in my career, there was one guy in our team and he was really good at what he did, but he was just... He was so hard to communicate with. He didn't communicate to others much. When you communicated with him, it was like a brick wall. And as I said, he was really good at what he did, but there was nothing going or coming. And one of our senior executives just had a knack with everybody. Anyone, any country, any culture, he just had a knack. And we still don't know what he did, but he made this guy flourish. Suddenly he's laughing, he's communicating. And we were just watching on the sidelines. I was really young. We're watching on the sidelines going, how is he doing this? And I imagine it's much the same when you go into the program and You think you're behaving one way as a leader and you think your communication is effective and you think all these things about how you're performing as a leader. But suddenly when that mirror is held up and you see that that's not happening at all and to be able to walk away with, I guess, the tools to then communicate with those difficult or non-communicative people in your team and suddenly open that up because of your behavior, it must be like, oh my God, you know, where has this piece been all these years? It must be amazing to unlock those insights and actually walk away knowing that you're a really effective leader. I
SPEAKER_01:mean, that's, you know, you're telling the story of what sounds like a leadership legend to me. For me, the foundational principle is the relationship. Everything comes back to building a relationship with your people. And it's a skill that needs practice. And it involves making an effort. And it involves reading the person, adjusting your style to bring out the best in that person. Because the person you described, if you approached that person in the way that you approached an extrovert, you wouldn't get very far. You have to adjust your style. And this is something that was a very important lesson for the Super 15 rugby coaches. They said, Janine, we have to approach each player differently. And I said, yes, that's exactly what you need to do because everybody is different. And our job as a leader is to set our people up for success. And in order to do that, you have to understand what makes them tick. And it was funny because I had a group of of people, of men actually, who sounded just like that person you were describing, not the leader, the other person. They were a bunch of introverts. They were engineers. I won't mention what company they were from, but they found it really challenging building the relationship with the horse. And it's funny because I find a lot of, not a lot of, but some men who are very goal-driven and perhaps quite analytical, they have to learn, I suppose, how to show vulnerability, how to lead from the heart, how to, when you give the horse a rub, it's not a cursory, perfunctory rub. You've got to make it mean something. You've got to feel it. And for me, leadership, good leadership, being a leadership legend is about the balance between those warm skills, making people feel special, building the relationship so people want to follow you, Those skills are so important, but it's the balance between those and those strong skills, like setting clear goals and sticking to your boundaries and your standards. And when you have that balance, the magic happens. And people feel that magic when they're with the horse, because on the final day to get the horse over the bridge, they have to really balance pressure with feedback. the strong skills with the warm. They have to start reading that horse. And as soon as that horse does a little lick and a chew or a blink, which are signs that the horse is beginning to follow you and beginning to understand, as soon as you pick up on those signals, just a minute amount, you have to go in and really build the relationship. If the horse isn't trying and not looking at the bridge, that's when you have to apply a you lose the horse. So you have to be really thinking and feeling and watching. And then when the horse follows you, my goodness, that feeling, it's like nothing else. Because what you've learned is how to have that wonderful balance and what that magic feels
SPEAKER_00:like as a leader. That would be so amazing. It was interesting what you said about the engineers. There's all these profiling tools and You know, I'm doing one next week with a client, you know, getting everyone in the room and going through everyone's profile and what they're like under pressure and all this sort of thing. But at the end of the day, and this is my belief, even though, you know, we've got different types of people in a company, we've got the introverts, the extroverts, the data-driven people, the people pleasers and all of that. That's fundamentally who they are. But learning these skills, where you've got someone who's completely data-driven and will deliver communication about, you know, objective things, intangible things, and not consider the impact on people or what people might be taking on board when they deliver that information. It's all about the facts. Just to learn those skills, like before you deliver that, just think about what you're saying and think about are the team going to be confused? Are they going to feel threatened? Are they going to feel a bit panicky? Are they going to not understand what you're saying? And, you know, all those things, just to get them to be able to think about that. Sounds small, but it's massive. And the way you've just described it with the horses, it's like jumping over a huge river. It's so big. So it would be amazing to have that experience and walk away knowing that you got the horse to do what it's, you know, meant to do, what you're meant to do. It'd be a fantastic feeling. Fantastic. Yeah. You must get the most amazing feedback. Oh, I do. And I
SPEAKER_01:feel very humbled. I'm not a particularly humble person, but certainly when I see people I suppose what I have created in matching the horse and the human and creating the arena for them to step into their leadership role and experience real growth. I feel, you know, the hairs on the back of my neck go up. I feel I'm witnessing something really remarkable. And that's why I'm driven to take this program out of New Zealand, because I don't know anyone doing this. And I don't know anyone getting these results and the results. It's not just, wow, they've had an amazing two days and they've learned about themselves. They don't forget what they've learned because it's been so confronting because they've had to work with half a ton of horse flesh. It's not something that you forget quickly. And they've had such honest feedback. Horses are honest. They don't care who you are. They're not impressed by how much money you earn. They are just absolutely honest. They give you immediate and honest feedback. So you're constantly getting feedback about your performance. And then I also offer very honest, horse-style feedback in the video analysis. I don't mince my words, but we've only got two days. We have to keep pushing forward for as much growth as we can get. So it is very humbling and... I love talking to people afterwards because the other really interesting thing is people take away so many different things and you can talk to, like I had a group last week, I had 11 leaders and every single person learned something different. So people take away what they need to from the program and it's not one size fits all like the rugby coaches. It's the engineers might learn the relevance of relationships and And how powerful that is to get to know their team.
SPEAKER_00:for each individual. And you mentioned making this business international. Let's talk about that for a minute because you've got a program coming up in Dubai, haven't you, in December? I do.
SPEAKER_01:I have a program in December in Dubai. I'm doing public speaking in London and I'm going to a conference in the States and then doing some interviews in New York. So I'm trying to spread the word as much as I can about because I am so passionate about what I do. And I was in Dubai a couple of months ago running some workshops and doing some public speaking. And I think what's been so interesting because I also did some public speaking in London in May, I think it was. And what was fascinating is that everybody's, the problems that women particularly suffer from in New Zealand are exactly the same as the problems that women suffer from in London, Dubai, Abu Dhabi. Being a people pleaser doesn't change depending on what country you're in. Having imposter syndrome doesn't change. And what I learned, I suppose, is that what I do has real value for people no matter where they are. And so I'm really excited to take this opportunity. overseas and help people, not just in New Zealand.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's fantastic. And just I have to ask you the logistics of doing that. Now, obviously, you can talk at conferences, you can run workshops, you just get in a plane and you go. How do you organise the horses for a workshop? Like, tell us about Dubai. How's that going to happen?
SPEAKER_01:Well, this is going to be interesting. So I did visit about three or four different stables. And likewise, in Britain, I visited some different arenas and stables. And I don't know, I'll have to let you know afterwards. I don't think it's going to be too hard, but that could be me being a bit overly optimistic and slightly cocky. I think it will be fine because I don't know any horses I work with anyway. These horses that I work with here in New Zealand, I use fresh horses each time. So I don't know the horses and that's how I like it. Each relationship is authentic and exciting and I'm always thrilled to see the dynamic change. expose itself. And it will be exactly the same in London, Dubai, wherever I end up taking this programme. I think there probably will be a few logistical nightmares. So for example, I have to get some obstacles made. That might be the biggest complication. But other than that, I suppose the horses in Dubai, some of the places I've visited, they're riding school horses, and some of those horses are quite shut down. And I That might be a slight problem. So I'm trying to find horses that are a bit naughtier. I don't want horses that are really good.
SPEAKER_00:And to people like just... happily lend out their horses? They
SPEAKER_01:seem to, yeah. So far, so good. In New Zealand, definitely. Oh, they love sending their horses here. I get people going, oh, can we bring my horse back, please? Because they come here quite naughty and they leave quite good. And I can use some of the horses perhaps two or three times, but after that, I can't use them. They're just too well-behaved. So people are getting their horse trained Well, not for free because I pay them to cover their transport. So they actually get a bit of money out of it. And they're really thrilled because their horse gets great exposure to other horses. They get a desensitizing experience. They learn some decent ground manners. And altogether, it's a win-win. So when my leaders arrive, I tell them, look, this is not a role-playing situation. These owners have entrusted their horses to your care. So you do need to take this seriously and give it 100%. You do need to improve the horse. And I think people definitely step up to that responsibility.
SPEAKER_00:How do clients find you? Like, you know, do you promote the business? Is it word of mouth? How do they find out about this program?
SPEAKER_01:The best way is to go onto the website, which is impact.com. leadership.co.nz. I have started doing TikTok. I'm trying to be relevant with my TikTok. Yet another job as an entrepreneur that we have to do, create a lot of content. And it's leadwithimpact on TikTok. I'm on Instagram, impactlead. You can link in. That's probably the easiest way. Janine Sudbury. So I'm quite active on LinkedIn. And, you know, I'm always so open to connecting with people because I love to find out what they do and see if I can help them in any way. You know, I love that whole approach of connecting is not about what people can do for me, but what I can do for them. And if there's anything that I can do to help, even if it's, you know, going to talk to your team about how to be a better leader or to tell some fun stories, then I'm really happy to do that.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I'm very keen to know how Dubai goes. I think it'd be fantastic. But before we finish, I want to ask you, what kind of leader would you say you are? That's
SPEAKER_01:a good question, isn't it? I've been called lots of different things. I think I'm an imperfect leader. I think I'm a committed leader and I like to think I'm inspirational. I like to lead from the front. I like to try and embody everything that I teach other people. So I'm somebody who always gives 110%. And I think in leadership, that counts a lot. And I think perhaps the most important thing about how I lead is that I'm an authentic leader. And I often think that word is overused. But in the words of Ali G, that great thought leader, I try to keep it real and I don't try and pretend to be anything I'm not. I don't copy anybody. I take full ownership for myself and I try to make everything fun. And that perhaps is my leadership style. And so what sort of
SPEAKER_00:horse would we give you? Yeah. A naughty horse? Just don't give me the donkey, whatever you do. I kind of worked that one out
SPEAKER_01:already. You know what? The funny thing is I pick up all the horses when people are struggling. I might have to give them a little demo. And I can work with every single horse. There's not been a horse that I can't work with. And that all comes down to the fact that I've spent so many hours practicing, tuning in and reading the horse and reading people. So... I'd love it if you came up with a really naughty horse for me, Jenny. Really challenge me and see. It'd be quite embarrassing, really, if I couldn't work with it. So yeah, I'm not sure what you'd give me.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think it's a fantastic program. I love what you're doing. And we'll have all the contact details in the show notes. And I will be talking to you between now and the end of the year and finding out how Dubai goes. And maybe at some point in the future, we can have a game of golf together. Wouldn't that be lovely? Why
SPEAKER_01:don't we do an Australian game of golf followed by some horse whispering? Sounds fabulous.
SPEAKER_00:We'll make it happen.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Thank you so much, Jenny. It's been a pleasure to talk to you too.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks, Janine. It's been great. That's all for today's episode of the 7% Club. Thank you so much for listening. And as always, wherever you are in the world, remember, better strategy, better business, better life.