The 7% Club
The 7% Club
Episode 41: Buy Grow Exit with Joanna Oakey
JOANNA OAKEY
Managing Partner Award-Winning Commercial Law Firm, Aspect Legal
Podcast Host - The Deal Room Podcast & Talking Law
Best-selling Author - Buy, Grow, Exit: The Ultimate Guide to Using your Business as a Wealth Creation Vehicle
Joanna Oakey is an award-winning commercial lawyer, and Managing Partner of Aspect Legal. The firm is the top boutique law firm for business sales and acquisitions (and has been for 2 years running).
Joanna has worked with thousands of businesses and business owners (and their advisors) as they acquire, grow and exit.
With more than 2 decades of experience, she has worked as a trusted legal partner for businesses of all sizes and industries, from small startups as they catapult in value, through to large national and multinational brands.
Joanna is the host of two top-rating podcasts (The Deal Room Podcast & Talking Law) and author of best-selling, award-winning business book Buy Grow Exit. She is a sought after speaker and commentator, featured by numerous national media outlets, and industry publications, and has been recognised as an industry leader for her commitment to innovation and supporting businesses as they Buy, Grow and Exit.
She brings a wealth of knowledge and incredible insight into
- the mistakes that businesses commonly make when acquiring, growing and exiting;
- what drives really great business sales and acquisitions
- legal landmines to avoid along the way.
If you'd like more info on anything Joanna has discussed in this podcast, get in touch with Joanna via LinkedIn, Email (joanna.oakey@aspectlegal.com.au) or visit AspectLegal.com.au
Connect
💡 Need help scaling your business from 7 to 8 figures? Get in touch jenny@jennystilwell.com.au
Remember: Better strategy, better business, better life! See you next time!
Hi there, this is Jenny Stilwell and welcome to the 7% Club podcast. For the 7% of business owners who break through 2 million in sales and for those on track to join this club, this podcast is to help you upscale.
UNKNOWN:Music
SPEAKER_01:In today's episode of the 7 Cent Club podcast, I'm talking to Joanna Oki. Joanna is an award-winning commercial lawyer and managing partner of Aspect Legal. The firm is the top boutique law firm for business sales and acquisitions and has been for two years running. Joanna has worked with thousands of businesses and business owners and their advisors as they acquire, grow and exit. She has more than two decades of experience and has worked as a trusted legal partner for businesses of all sizes and industries, from small start-ups as they catapult in value through to large national and multinational brands. Joanna is also the host of two top-rating podcasts and author of best-selling, award-winning business book, Buy, Grow, Exit. She brings a wealth of knowledge and incredible insight into the mistakes that businesses commonly make when acquiring, growing and exiting, what drives really great business sales and acquisitions, and legal landmines to avoid along the way. Hi, Joanna. Welcome to the podcast. How are you? Hey, Jenny. So good to be on the podcast. I'm fantastic. How are you? Very good. Thank you. I have a copy of your fabulous book sitting here, Bye, grow, exert. And just for those people who are listening, Joanna's book was actually a winner of the Australian Business Book Awards the year that my book in the same category was finalist. So I bought the book and I've read it and I love it. And I think there's a lot of things that we can discuss on the commercial and legal side of buying, growing and exiting. So I'm looking forward to this conversation. Thanks, Jenny. I am too. I really am. So before we get into it, because I really want to discuss the book and your methodologies and some of the traps that business owners fall into, you're a managing partner of Aspect Legal, a law firm. You've got two podcasts, award-winning mergers and acquisitions and commercial lawyer. So let's just talk about what your background is that got you to where you are now. What's been the path for you?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's a really interesting one. So I qualified as a lawyer, but at uni, I studied my first degree. So I studied law together with other degrees, but my other two degrees were in psychology and in media. And actually, I find that a really useful combination because one of the things that I found, you know, I was in legal firms, small and very large. But one of the things that I found in the industry of lawyers as a whole is lawyers, you know, very generally very good with detail but it's those soft skills or that sort of emotional intelligence and understanding why people behave in the way they do is actually not I mean it never taught in law school and nor any of the you know subsequent education that you have as a lawyer like that's really not a thing and so I loved starting from a position of psychology I'm very interested in humans and why humans behave in the way they do but I think bringing that into a legal practice. And ultimately, I came to the position where I just couldn't work in a legal firm for anyone else because I didn't believe in the way the concept of the way legal firms operated or negotiation operated, you know, just didn't resonate with me. So I had to find a way to do it on my own, on my own terms. And I think starting my own legal practice allowed me to play with some of these concepts that I'd sort of thought about for years, I guess, and gave me that opportunity to do things in a really different way, because I had no one that I was answerable to, except myself for At the end of the day. And you know what? I love business. I think I'm an entrepreneur at heart. And so being an entrepreneur at heart together with like having a keen interest in people and human behavior, I think helps provide an approach to law that perhaps is a little bit different to the way Most lawyers approach it and most clients have the experience of when dealing with lawyers.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, look, I think that's a perfect combination, the psychology and understanding how people tick. And particularly, you'd be dealing with people in very sensitive situations and you'd If people buy businesses and something goes pear-shaped and it doesn't work out, you know, there's financial implications, emotional, family, relationships. So... I think having that psych background and being able to navigate through the emotional aspect would be really important and a huge differentiator. But also the other degree, you said media, did you?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, media and communications.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, that fits perfectly with, you know, the two podcasts you've got. So it's all come together really, really nicely and I bet there's– I really– would say there's no other lawyers out there with that combination that you need.
SPEAKER_00:A bit of an unusual one, but it's really worked well for me. And like the interesting thing is, I don't know, I don't know if you reflect back when you left school and went to uni, but I was a bit like, well, I don't know what I want to do. And you just sort of end up in these things. And at the end of the day, now, when I look back, I say, oh my gosh, thank goodness. I made all those choices that I did notwithstanding, I had no idea what I was choosing back then. But anyway.
SPEAKER_01:There must have been some intuitive guidance for us all, I think. No one knew, but we kind of end up in the right place. That's right, exactly. It works out.
SPEAKER_00:That's exactly right.
SPEAKER_01:So let's talk about your book, Buy, Grow, Exit. I loved it and I'll preface it by saying I think there's a lot of business owners out there, business people, who can underestimate the value of growth. legal parameters, legal agreements, going down that path of finding an expert who can really help you put all the right structure in place. And I know with my clients, I know where my expertise ends on that front and when I need to bring in someone like you. And, you know, I've had most of my clients take my advice and go down that path and get experts in. But the couple of occasions where they haven't, oh my God, you know, they didn't think it was important. Shareholder agreements, no, we'll be fine. We don't need one. And the ramifications when things go pear-shaped is absolutely massive. So I'm a huge advocate for getting all your commercial and legal structure in place. Let's talk about what was the motivation around writing the book.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, really good question because there was a point where I thought to myself, like I've got a lot to say but I don't think I'll ever write a book because that sounds like a lot of hard work. But years, like early on, I thought I wanted to write a book but then I ended up starting up the podcast and two podcasts and I thought that was sort of, for me in terms of content creation. I felt like I could get my thoughts out there. But they came to this point where a lot of people just kept saying to me, you know what, like you've got to get this down and you've got to write a book. And I thought, oh, well, maybe I'll get started. And the process of getting started, one of the biggest benefits of writing a book and that writing process, and I don't know, Jenny, if you found this too, but was just that opportunity to And that discipline to take these ideas and to put them in some coherent form. And so essentially, you know, I had all of these disparate thoughts about the buy process and the exit process and the growth process as well. As in the process of sitting down and thinking, you know, maybe I should, maybe I should put this into a book. As I started to do that, it really came together. And as it came together, it allowed me... So, you know, the book is called Buy, Grow, Exit. But I had these sort of two divisions of the legal practice before, and that was the M&A side or the SME M&A side, which is the buy and sell side. And then I had this other side, which is general commercial legal. And it took me ages to work out. I thought they were two different businesses that I was running because they're very different. Mergers and acquisitions or the legals involved in buying and selling businesses is very specialist. There are lots of things that are very specialized in there. I thought these were two different divisions of things that I was passionate about and love, but two different divisions. The book helped me work out clearly that they were part of the one in a really important way. And in fact, when I first started writing a book, I was going to write two books. I was going to write an acquisition and exit book, and then I was going to write, you know, a commercial law book. But it came together and I had people that I was talking through during that writing process that really helped me clarify, this is such an important... bundle together. And indeed, I think ultimately, that's another layer of value we can provide to our clients. Because when we when we're dealing with clients who are growing a business, we understand in really high level detail how those decisions that they're making in growth will impact their exit at the end of the day. And when someone's buying a business, we understand the importance of that growth protection and ultimate exit as well. So it's just like all of those things together actually make us so much better in each of those other individual pieces as well. Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:That's what a book gave me and it was as I started to, it was sort of like I started writing not even sure if I was actually going to write it, but I got hooked into the opportunity to get that thought process together and turn it into something more powerful once it was together. So that was the reason, I think.
SPEAKER_01:And isn't it a fantastic discipline? Like I wrote my first book quite a few years ago and writing the more recent one, you know, I was struggling with the same thing, like all those years of experience and knowledge and And someone said to me, oh, you know, it really should be just brought down to sort of, you know, a framework or a methodologies that's got three, five, maybe seven core parts to it. And I thought, well, that's ridiculous. I can't do that. You know, I've got so much knowledge and so much IP, but I did. And it was just like you went through. It's a fantastic process of distilling it all down to the most important parts and stuff that we know and we take for granted, you put it into a book and the people who need that help will come to you because the book is like a brochure, isn't it? Or like a business card, it's compelling. And I love the way you've structured this because that's how my brain works. So it's really, a lot of my clients, they're mostly grow and exit, not the buy bit. But I love the way you've structured it all. It's fantastic.
SPEAKER_00:Well, interestingly, Jenny, the interesting thing is, you know, I'm really keen on this concept of growth through acquisition as well. I think this is like such a massive opportunity for growing businesses because growing businesses, of course, you know, constantly thinking of organic growth, but this opportunity to buy a business and to have it absolutely super charge growth is like such an exciting opportunity and the thing is as lawyers I have to be honest, this entrepreneurial side of myself sometimes looked at law and went, oh, my God, like, I just want to tell the good news stories as well, rather than just, you know, because like lawyers are there in many people's heads to talk about risk. And like, that is a very important thing. But my mind is more focused to how do we use law and the things that we're learning through all of these transactions that we're dealing with to help businesses grow as well, which is also not a question many lawyers are asking. And I just think it gives me such excitement to find areas like this, you know, growth through acquisition, to actually say, like, there are some ways that we can bring these insights as lawyers still to actually helping that growth process as well.
SPEAKER_01:And I agree with you. It's a very exciting opportunity by acquisition rather than organic growth. And I also find that when a lot of companies do it before they come to see you, they approach it with the right intent but not the right structure and they get a lot of the strategic things wrong. What I'd love to talk to you about is in the grow part of the book, you talk about your fortify methodology. Could you take us through that a little bit? We've got identify, protect, predict and prevent.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. Actually, very quickly before I talk about it, one of the things I talk about in the beginning of the growth section is a client that I worked with that was a really pivotal story for me. And that was one of the beautiful things about that writing process. You can reflect on these stories that have really impacted you. And that is another reason for writing the book, because I have seen, so I've dealt with probably thousands of transactions of businesses in acquisition and exit, but also just growing along the way right and there's so many good news stories But there's also a few dire bad news stories. And then there's just the ho-hum that sit in the middle as well. And, you know, like I just wanted to one of the things I really like the thought bubble that I wanted to get out there was I wanted business owners to have access. And I think it's I feel the same in your book, Jenny. You want business owners to have access to this understanding some of these core things that have been these stories, these patterns that you see over again and again and again. the positive, the negative and the ho-hum. And you just, you want to give business owners the opportunity to be that brilliant example, that shining example when you reflect, right? So I start off, grow talking about this story that was when I was a junior lawyer. Client came in and he came in, he'd appointed a general manager to the business. And, you know, this is one of the things we teach our clients as they're growing, moving key person risk away from themselves in the business, building up, you know, the management team to be able to run the business, to free them from the business, but also to free them from that key person risk that they are holding as the founder. But What happened in this particular instance was James did that, but without the legal protection under him. And the general manager came in, didn't run the business in a tight way for lots of different reasons. There were issues, ended up blowing the business up. The business ended up in liquidation. James ended up in personal bankruptcy. His marriage collapsed. And then I don't know if I put this last bit in the book because I thought it sounded too far-fetched, but it was, I promise you, the absolute reality he then started getting death threats like it was horrendous
SPEAKER_01:oh my god i remember the story
SPEAKER_00:oh it was just you know and like i had this grown man in front of me so junior lawyer junior i was a junior lawyer at the time and he was just a lovely guy lovely guy not that that made a difference like everyone's you know we're all working hard as business owners here but just such a lovely guy doing what he thought were the right things, but carrying out part of the advice, but without the whole infrastructure behind him to support it. And he was in tears. And I just, it was that time when I reflected on years later, you know, how is what I'm doing useful to the world at all? Like I had this sort of like moment when I reflected on myself and my career and I was trying to work out where do I want to be? What do I want to do in life? And I don't know if you've ever had any of these pivotal moments, Jen, but I just had that moment where I was reflecting back and like, am I making a difference in the world? Am I doing something useful? And I thought back to James and I thought, do you know what? Like if I even... stopped just one James incident from happening into the future. Like that's the power we can bring as lawyers and as advisors, you know, and those stories to help our clients avoid. So anyway, long story, that's where Identify, Protect, Prevent came from, as well as obviously the positive stories. So Identify is about starting off and understanding what your key assets are in the business. Like what is it that actually protects is that value that underpins the asset because business owners rarely do that. They're rarely growing the business thinking in this way. And I tell you what, just as a bit of an insider knowledge, this is what buyers are also looking for. So when you're looking at this as yourself as a business, as you're growing it, if you're keeping it in your mind, you're also building a business that ultimately makes it easy to sell in the future. So you identify that key value, key assets, and then you protect it. So it's building the protection mechanism around it. So key assets for most businesses are things like clients and your client base, your intellectual property, your might be premises. If you're a shop front, it might not. If you're not, it might be key relationships with a licensor or a key supplier. You need to understand what those are and then you need to move on to protect. To
SPEAKER_01:most businesses, business owners or a lot of them struggle with identifying assets that aren't tangible.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, 100%. That's part of the issue. A business owner is very good at looking at their business and saying this part of plant machinery cost me X dollars and recognising the value in that. What they don't recognise is the intangible factor and the elements that will make their business valuable from a buyer's eyes and the things that they need to protect as they're growing. Businesses in growth phase are at their most vulnerable out of any phase of their business, essentially. So people say startup is the most vulnerable phase. Well, maybe, but you have less to protect at that stage. So it's growth when you have an asset that has value, but usually, not always, but most business owners without the right advice will actually be growing their business far faster than the infrastructure under it to support it. So what happens is as they grow, And after they go through fast growth, they start to have like these mini fires that start appearing in the business. But that eats up the business owners, the founders, the management's time, attention and money. And it can also blow the business up. So it's like these breaks that appear on the business. It ties up the time of the owners or the managers, but it's also a key risk. And that comes to the predict phase, which is what are those risks that are sitting in the business that you may not even realize are sitting there? And what are the early warning signs that you can build into your business? And the last one is prevent. Now we need to prevent that risk. But the four steps, identify, protect, predict, and prevent, all of those steps actually are based on systems, a systems approach. I'm a very systems-driven person. And I believe many people People go to a lawyer thinking that what they want is a document. But they think that's what they want. They don't want that. They want to prevent dispute. That's what they want. They want to shore up the asset that sits behind it. And the answer is almost never just in a document that sits on its own. And that's the mistake that people often make. They think the answer is just a contract, just a document. And it's not. It's a mixture of, number one, having the eyes and the identification. Number two, having the systems and processes built. And number three, Having the documents, yes, but once you've met these other two steps. And finally, training, making sure that the team who are dealing with each of these different aspects of your business, where this risk and value appear, are trained adequately in how to ward off risk and in how to protect value.
SPEAKER_01:And do you find that with that growth stage... because the owners of the business are so focused on what growth means, managing all that increasing complexity and dealing with so many operational things day to day, I don't imagine many of them are proactively thinking about their legal structures. Is there usually some dire catalyst that brings them to you at that point?
SPEAKER_00:Perfect. Really good question. I'm glad you asked that because that's part of in fact, what the predict element is, that sort of like the third thing along in the road, but it might actually come first because what happens is most business owners won't invest in legals and thinking about legals until they've been bitten. So something has to go wrong first because they don't really recognise it as an issue. The classic way it appears is they've had an employee that's taken action against them, you know, for an unfair dismissal claim, or they've had a just with a customer who's owed them a lot of money because they've not been clear enough in their documentation or their milestones or whatever the case may be. Or they have a dispute with a key contract. You know, it's disputes. It's that sort of thing. It's something that goes wrong in the business from a legal perspective and they receive a cease and desist letter in relation to one of the marks that they're using, whatever, something like this. And that's the thing where they go, oh, Hold on. Oh, this just cost me a lot more time and money than I realized. I suddenly realized I've got risk on the table here. But the business owners who take that and say that is a sign, that is a warning sign that there is deficiency in legal infrastructure of my business, they're the businesses that then can be strong as they build themselves up. through this, the mistake is completely ignoring that. So, of course, the best thing to do is get in early and not have the issues appear to begin with. But the second best thing to do is the first time you recognise this, to jump on it, realise it's representative of a much bigger issue. And the bigger issue is not just that this might be a risk that depletes sort of like the value of your business today or is an economic exposure today. the bigger risk perhaps is actually that you're building something that is far harder to exit for a great value or even value that you should expect it should have at the end of the day. And so business owners who recognize this because they've had the issues early on are actually lucky. And that's what I try to say to my clients who come in for disputes. I say, do you know what? You're lucky because you've recognized this in a small, it's only a small thing that's gone wrong. It could have been a big, thing or worse still it could have been right at the end of your business journey when you suddenly realized you had an asset that buyers didn't want because there was too much risk sitting in it.
SPEAKER_01:That's really interesting because it takes them to be bitten before they come in and get advice and I find that like moving into the exit stage I've had conversations where the owner of the business will say something like well you know if I walked away with$2 million or pick a figure, I'd be happy. Well, hang on a minute. Hang on a minute. What's that based on? And it's a very arbitrary figure. And what about the forward planning? It's like planning to build a$5 million company or a$10 million company. It needs a plan. So if you're planning to exit for a certain value, you need to understand the drivers of value. And what are they? What do investors and acquirers look for? So from my perspective, just looking at the strategy, that's always a really interesting area that people often look at too late. What's your experience on the exit side? I'm sure it's looking at it too late. but share your experience on that side of
SPEAKER_00:it. 100%. Like you were spot on. Most of our clients just are not prepared for exit because they haven't thought about it in enough detail. But when I deal with, and you're probably the same, with those sellers who have thought about exit, who've carefully planned, there's sort of two things that happen. Number one, they've obviously got an asset that's more saleable so that they'll have a larger pool of buyers, the buyers that they'll have access to generally are buyers who will pay a higher multiple than, you know, the other types of businesses who have the smaller pool of buyers because, you know, buyers who are willing to pay a higher multiple also have higher expectations of what they're buying and, you know, the thoroughness of the preparation for business for a takeover But I think the reality is that not just is a business more saleable with potentially higher value, but also the seller's are more realistic in terms of their expectation. So it's sort of like that emotion. And you talked about emotion right in the beginning, and I 100% agree. And once again, that's something that I feel grateful for having that psychology background give me, a really acute appreciation of the emotion that sits there in a deal, both buy side and sell side, but particularly for our sellers as they approach this moment for that final liquidation of their asset into value. And the sellers who don't understand what drives value in a business and therefore don't understand what that true value is in their business, in many instances end up disappointed by, say, a sale because they haven't understood what they're likely sale price is and they haven't done the right things to build that.
SPEAKER_01:And I think they haven't flipped it. It's like, you know, in a lot of cases, everyone's focused on their products and the benefits and features of their products and why they're great or their services. But it's like, well, okay, that's fabulous, but let's just flip it and look at it from the customer side. Forget about what we think about our products and services. What do the customers think? And that's what's missing in the this transactional part at exit. They're thinking about what they want and what they think is great about their business without understanding what the drivers of value are and what the buyers are actually looking for. You know, they're very focused on what they're selling and why it's so valuable. but they need to understand the buyer has a very different perspective. So can we just dive into that a little bit more in terms of preparation? You had a couple of great stories in the book of one company that was well-prepared, another one that wasn't, and how it impacts the big deal at the end of the day. So let's talk about preparation, what companies need to think about.
SPEAKER_00:And those examples and all of the examples in my book are real examples, but they're also the examples that have probably had, like, for whatever reason, the greatest sort of emotional pull for me. You know, when, like, I just, you know, looking at things going, oh, that's amazing. Or, oh, you know, I just so wish I could have got to you a bit earlier. You know what I mean? But, like, the stories that I told, they're actually real. hundreds more that are just like it. This is the reality out there, you know, but preparation. So there's so many things that sellers can do to prepare. The very first thing, though, is exactly what we're talking about right now is to start early and to look at their business from the eyes of a buyer. And in fact, you know, once again, back to why did I write the book? This is also why I was so glad in the end I'd written this book that had buy, grow and exit, because I thought so important for someone who is in growth phase to understand exit and what those choices are. But so important for someone who's in exit phase to understand... the buyer's side. What are buyers looking for, right? You're picking up this book and you think you're in growth phase and the other two aren't relevant to you yet. Like they 100% are. Even for the exit phase, the buyer's side is relevant. So what can you do to prepare? Look at your business with a buyer's eyes and actually maybe even start down the process of being a buyer. Think you don't have to actually buy a business, but go and start trying it out. What does it look like? What sort of businesses are out there? And Actually, I've got a few podcasts where I talk about this. And I had a client who came to me once on exit and he said, actually, I've taken your advice. I listened to this podcast and I went out and decided to go and have a look. And, actually, I realised there's some great opportunities out there. So we're actually, I'm coming to you today not for the sale of my business but because I'm buying a business and I'm going to do that first and then we're going to sell because I can buy something. I know, right, at two times EBITDA. And I know when I wrap it into my hole, it will be worth four times a bit to run. I'm just like, how good is that? So anyway, you could take it to that extent. Look at it from buyer's eyes. But the second bit is prepare. So proper preparation. Look at it from buyer's eyes, then work out what else you have to do along the way. is sort of almost very similar actually to the Fortify concept. So you have to identify core value and work out how that will transfer to a buyer and how you can make that transfer to a buyer. You have to make sure you understand what risk is sitting in a business and how you can minimize that risk, de-risk it, for a buyer. The steps in exit are actually very similar to many of the steps in Fortify, but one other overlay have very early, solid discussions with your accountants and tax advisors because tax is critical. And we've had a number of transactions just recently that have reminded me again and again and again how complexity is to restructure when you're in a sale. And that's when sometimes these restructures come because the sellers just haven't got their head around it early enough. And I've seen a little bit of discussion with various people today talking about how annoying it is and hard it is to restructure a business. And do you know what I say to that? Try doing it in a sale. If you think it's hard before a sale, you ain't seen nothing until trying to do it in a sale. So I think it's really about just sort of like getting your education, looking at your business from a buyer's perspective, and then really having those tax discussions, preparation discussions going. identifying the assets and locking them in and making them transferable, minimizing risk, de-risking the business.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, fantastic. I think everyone in business should go out and buy your book, by the way. So just on a personal level, what is it that drives you to succeed with all the different things you've got going on in your business and probably your life? What are your drivers?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, look, I just always wanted a business that, provided real value like I just like I need to feel like I'm providing value in the world you know like that's for me I need to I could never just turn up and do work if I didn't feel deeply connected to it so my drivers are like I want to create something of true honest lasting value to our clients but also to our team members you know I just it's really important to me that I've built a business full of people who love to come to work every day and truly deeply believe in what they're doing I don't want anyone who's coming just for a paycheck although I'm happy obviously to provide the paycheck too but what I want is people who deeply identify with the mission because we're on a big mission to create lasting change. And the only way you can do that if you're surrounded by people who are on that same path with a passion as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. Can't do it on your own.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. That's it. And the one other thing is I want to do that though within the context of still engaging myself having a life outside of business, my team having a life outside of business. You know, we've got passion for the clients, but, you know, I've also got passion for life as well. So I want, you know, I just, I want all of it all together. But it is a bit busy, of course.
SPEAKER_01:That's very good to hear because my overarching philosophy is better strategy, better business, better life. And that's why we're building our businesses and helping our clients and doing what we do. So it enables a better life for all of us. Otherwise, I think what's the point?
SPEAKER_00:I love that. So good.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Look, it's been fantastic talking to you. Thank you so much, Joanna. I'll put all your contact details in the show notes. And I strongly advocate everyone go out and buy a copy of Buy, Grow, Exit.
SPEAKER_00:Brilliant. Jenny, thank you so much for having me on. It's just been a real blast. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Wonderful. Thank you, Jenny. Thanks, Joanna. Bye.
SPEAKER_01:And that's all for today's episode of the 7% Club. Thank you so much for listening. And as always, wherever you are in the world, remember, better strategy, better business, better life.