Inside China’s Livestream World: Director Hao Wu on Fame, Fans, and Big Money: S5E3

In this podcast episode we chat with China-United States Binational Documentarian Hao Wu about how his movement between these two countries has affected what he has done online, both in personal and professional capacities. Hao grew up in China and has had healthy movement from China to the U.S. and back in his adult life. Although he is currently based in New York City, he admits that he is most interested in stories about China.

​One of these China focused projects, People’s Republic of Desire, is about the Chinese live streaming platform YY and specifically about two popular Hosts on the platform. This documentary was screened in Shanghai, where I am currently living, earlier this year. Shannon Martin of Podbean and our local Host of the Podcast Brunch Club was there as well. In fact, during the screening and for days after the event, Shannon and I exchanged ideas, questions and ponderings about the documentary. We are very grateful that Hao was kind enough to agree to an interview so we could ask him about when the Internet became an integral part of his daily life, how creating a documentary about the trials and tribulations of live streaming for years affected his own online activities and the how his online tasks change, even now, when he flies from the U.S. to China and vice versa.   

Note: Hao’s latest project, All In My Family, about his alternative family journey from within a traditional Chinese family structure, is on Netflix May 3rd, 2019.

Original publication date: April 20, 2019

More: https://linktr.ee/stephfuccio

Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:00

Welcome to the Virtual Expats Podcast. In the podcast, we interview expats, or former expats, on how changing locations changed what they did online. In the podcast episode, we're interviewing documentarian Hao Wu on Valentine's Day this year. My husband and I went to the Shanghai Foreign Correspondence Club screening of People's Republic of Desire, one of Hao's most recent projects. Yes, we really are that romantic. Also at the event was Shannon Martin, who works for Podbean, and also is our local host for the podcast French Club. We all talked incessantly for the next few days after this screening, and that's when we decided that Shannon and I needed to interview Hao, and he was kind enough to agree to this interview. Hao has a very interesting background. He's lived both in China and in the US, and is currently living in New York City, and he calls himself Binational. And I think as you listen to his geographical trajectory during the interview, you'll agree. A bi-national seems to be a very, very fair label for how he splits up his time between the two places. Hao's career is equally as interesting. He started out in the tech field working for a number of high-profile companies, including but not limited to Alibaba here in China. The People's Republic of Desire is a documentary following two live streamers in the ups and downs of their live streaming experiences. Specifically, these two live streams are on the YY platform in China. And there's a large focus on the YY yearly competition. This is a slightly different type of interview. We are talking about Hal's geographical trajectory and his own online experience and how they affect each other, but we also talk about his documentary, People's Republic of Desire. One final note on Hal. Hal has another project coming out on May 3rd in just a few days from now. And it will come out on Netflix. It's called All in My Family. And it is about living one to true identity in the face of a traditional family values. And I'll have a link in the show notes for the trailer for that. All right. So without further ado, let's get to the conversation between Shannon, Howe, and myself. Thank you so much, Hal and Shannon, for joining us on Virtual Expats Podcast.

SPEAKER_03 2:02

Glad to be here.

SPEAKER_07 2:03

Glad to be here too. This is the first time we're doing two interviewers with one interviewee on the Virtual Expat podcast. So let's do a quick round. We'll do the interviewers first. Hi, I'm Stephanie, long-term serial expat, and someone who's curious about what our geographic movement does to our online presence and activities.

SPEAKER_06 2:21

Hi, I'm Shannon. I currently live in Shanghai, China. I've been here almost seven years, originally from the US, and have lived in a couple of on a couple of different continents. So love cross-cultural stuff and this podcast, and very interested, of course, in China and things going on here. So I'm very interested in this uh interview. And I work in the podcasting industry. I work for Podbean, so love all things podcasting as well.

SPEAKER_07 2:46

And Shannon is also our local host for the Podcast Brunch Club. I have to plug them every chance I get because they're wonderful. And our special guest today is Hao Wu. Hal?

SPEAKER_03 2:57

Hi, uh, this is Hao. Um I'm a documentary filmmaker based in New York. I'm originally from China. Uh strangely, I'm even though I live in New York, I still primarily focus on China stories in my documentary films.

SPEAKER_07 3:11

We generally map out in XPAC, and we use that term very, very loosely, basically anybody who lives outside their home country or passport country, whatever you want to call it. And we map out uh their geographical movement, in this case, China to the US and back and forth and back and forth, and what that does to their online presence. So, with that, the first question. As a binational, Hal, you spent a lot of time in both China and the US. Can you briefly give our listeners a chronological snapshot of when and how long you were in in each place?

SPEAKER_03 3:39

Okay, so I'm in my 40s. I moved to the US when I was 20 for graduate school. And then after graduate school, I went to another graduate school. And uh after that, I worked in Silicon Valley for many years. And then after that, I moved back to China. I worked for companies like Alibaba, Yahoo China, and TripAdvisor in China. And uh, and the end of 2011, I quit my tech career to focus on documentary filmmaking full-time. So before then, I was dabbling in documentary filmmaking as a part-time hobby. But starting the end of 2011, I began to do this full-time until now.

SPEAKER_06 4:17

That's wonderful. As a follow-up question to that, you obviously have been in t the tech space a long time. So obviously, the internet has been a big part of your life uh for quite some time. Do you remember at what age the internet became an integral part of your daily life? And was that when you were based in the US or China?

SPEAKER_03 4:34

You know, when I first moved to the US, there was something called email. So that was so fascinating to us, you know. My fellow friends coming all the way from China. We were all very poor back in the 1990s. We could afford to call each other every week. So we send each other emails. That was very fascinating, very early stage. You had to use the Unix prompt to send a Unix command to send out emails. Um, so even back then, because I was in academia, email was always a big part of the uh communication.

SPEAKER_07 5:09

And I always have to ask people when they talk about um email or doing things online pre-2000, what color was the screen when you were using uh Unix for email? Was it orange, green, or another color?

SPEAKER_03 5:21

I think the screen was always black. It's the letters. Oh, okay. Those were green. Remember the matrix? It's the it's the uh the little things that are green, not the not the background. The background is always black.

SPEAKER_07 5:34

Oh, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:35

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_07 5:36

Yeah. At university in the late 90s, mine, um, our screens were, I want to say they were orange, and then the text was black. It was really hard to work with. I'm really glad that the World Wide Web developed when it did. Shannon, how about you? Your first um online or email experience. Was it on like a what we consider like a normal looking screen or a different color?

SPEAKER_06 5:57

Um, I I I remember what Hal was talking about about the black with green. Um, but I think it was normal. I was doing sort of chat rooms in university and then email, but email was I'm trying to remember what it was at that time. It definitely wasn't Gmail. I guess that was like AOL, probably maybe the first one. And then university. Same, same as a lot of people. I think we a lot of us got online first, you know, through through universities in some way, or like a tech job kind of before it hit the general public. So all three of us, I think, were in the early days.

SPEAKER_07 6:33

Too funny. Well, how or what inspired you to switch over in 2011 to switch over to doing documentaries? Was there anything specifically that inspired you to do that?

SPEAKER_03 6:43

Uh it wasn't I didn't switch um in one go. Um, when I moved back to China in 2004, I actually took a year and year and a half break from my tech career to started doing writing screenplays and doing documentary films. And then after a while, after I burned through my savings, I went back to the tech career um, you know, in tech industry to make some money again. So, anyway, so it's a back and forth, back and forth a couple of times. I had always been interested in the storytelling, uh, ever since I was growing up in China, in like middle school and high school. Um I never got a chance to. So it's just kind of random because what sometimes when we make choices in life, it's not because we consciously choose to do this versus that. For example, before I moved back to China, I spent two years in LA and I met many filmmaker friends, and everybody was writing a screenplay. And then at that time I thought I could write screenplay too. That's how I got into this. But then I realized it was so hard to make to actually write a screenplay, get it, getting the screenplay produced. Uh, and then I just picked up the camera, started filming. So that was 2004, 2005, and then I went back to tech for a number of years and quit into the end of 2011.

SPEAKER_07 8:01

Was there anything you were doing online in China before you moved at 20 years old to the US?

SPEAKER_03 8:06

No, uh, there wasn't anything on there wasn't internet. Wait, I moved to the US when I was 1992. I don't think the internet went to China in 1997, 1998, right? Yeah. So there wasn't any internet back. Okay.

SPEAKER_07 8:21

Now, would you describe yourself more as a consumer of internet content, a creator of internet content, or both equally?

SPEAKER_03 8:28

I think it's more, I'm more a consumer of internet content versus uh producer of internet content. Uh obviously all my films can be found online, but uh my film hasn't films haven't become uh sort of hits, right? Online hits. So not as many people are watching it uh and leaving me comments for me to communicate with them versus like I consume a lot of content on Netflix, HBO Go, and Hulu, for example, and YouTube, obviously.

SPEAKER_06 8:57

I'm curious, do you now having the documentary career and having some um films that have gotten a lot of attention, um maybe in more traditional media, has that changed how you kind of interact? You know, do you feel like you're more of a, I don't know if you want to call it a personality or like a brand online? And do you even have help uh do you have people that help with that at all? Or is that do you still just do the interaction yourself like on Twitter or Weibo or wherever you are online?

SPEAKER_03 9:23

Yeah, I mean, I still primarily um do everything myself. I don't have anybody help. I I'm not a personality, I'm not a brand for sure. The first thing is that I make foreign language films and try to distribute them in the US. I think as you two are probably aware of, in the US, not as many people really are that interested in foreign language content, period, right? Unless you become Oscar Winner, best foreign films uh at that level. So, you know, I don't have a lot of followers on social media, and I honestly I haven't been that proactive uh in trying to establish my fan base on online because I mean during the process of making people's republic desire, for a while I actually thought about quitting the uh quitting Facebook, quitting Twitter. Because I would just become so wary of the uh dependency on the internet, especially, you know, I was following some internet celebrities in China's live streaming world, and they were really not very happy with their lives. But then I kind of what kept me on still on social media is because I'm an independent filmmaker. I have a film I have to promote, so I kind of have to be on Facebook.

SPEAKER_06 10:36

Right. Yeah, you're kind of forced to enter it. I imagine you probably, depending on what you're doing, use different languages online. What languages do you use online and what like which times you're using Chinese versus English on online?

SPEAKER_03 10:51

Uh yeah, it's uh very interesting because right now I travel quite often back to China. Uh for some strange reason, as soon as I go back to China, my internet consumption behavior changes. For example, uh obviously I use WeChat all the time, right? Uh to communicate with friends in China, family in China. But in terms of the kind of news app I access, uh you know, I read, and uh the kind of video app I use. You know, when I'm in China, I'm more like a typical Chinese internet consumer. I use Total, I use Tencent Video, right? And uh I I I I you know and and I also check out Chiba every once in a while. And obviously it's still bad. But when I'm in the US, I I you know I use the New York Times, I use BuzzFeed, I you know, it's completely almost like there's a parallel universe. I have to, whenever I go to a different country, I just switch to the other universe on.

SPEAKER_07 11:47

What why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_03 11:48

Uh yeah, that's interesting. I I I don't have a clear answer for that. I think partly it's definitely because the uh great firewall. Uh once I'm in China, I don't have easy access to Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, and Netflix, right? That's part of the reason. But but I I don't think the online environment really exists in isolation from the real world, per se. Uh whenever I go to China, just because you know you talk to the cab driver or you talk you meet meet up with some friends from childhood, and what people are talking about, you kind of want to go do some research online to be able to grasp what's happening in China, uh in the real world. So that's why it depends on where I travel to. I try to switch both my real world experience as well as my online immersion to fit where I am.

SPEAKER_07 12:42

Right, right, right. Do you feel like your online and offline lives are equally balanced in both places?

SPEAKER_03 12:51

How do you define balanced?

SPEAKER_07 12:53

Huh. Um, that one doesn't overtake the other. That's a good question.

SPEAKER_03 13:00

I I honestly think I spent way too much time on my phone. But I my only excuse is that I spent a lot of time editing my film. You know, with editing. No, not not on my phone, just like in general. When I'm editing, there's always like sometimes I have to wait one or two minutes for for the render to complete. So what can I do with that? One one to two minutes. I I go on the either I'm complaining on my phone to check out what's happening uh among my friends.

SPEAKER_07 13:28

Yes. I use the same excuse when I edit podcasts.

SPEAKER_05 13:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 13:33

When I reached out to you, I mentioned that Shannon and I had both seen the live screening of the People's Republic of Desire a couple of months ago in Shanghai. And we both we both left with like tons of questions. And for days after, we're going back and forth on WeChat to each other, like going, what about this? What about this? What about this? And that's the whole the whole reason why we reached out. And we really appreciate you doing this interview. So let's let's switch over from how the virtual person to how the documentarian if we can. And we'll probably view your back and forth as we do because there's no distinct, you know, dividing point. But before we but before we do that, have you ever live streamed yourself?

SPEAKER_03 14:11

No, I think the only time I was on live stream was uh when I was filming Big Lee, he liked to brag to his fans that uh CCTV is making a film about him. He he would you know lie to his fans that I'm I'm a reporter from CCTV. And he would turn the webcam at me, so I will appear in front of his fans, live fans. But I never live streamed myself.

SPEAKER_07 14:34

Would you ever?

SPEAKER_03 14:35

I don't think so. I'm more like a behind the camera kind of guy. Uh if anybody, if anything, I I could become the you know, the evil big brother behind the scenes. I don't want to be on camera. I don't want, you know, I don't want to be the one performing. I kind of like to control things. And I just feel like a lot of times when I'm in front of a camera, I kind of lose control.

SPEAKER_06 14:57

Yeah, I'm curious with all of the different activity, there's so much going on online uh young on the Chinese internet. Uh, why did you decide to focus on live streaming specifically?

SPEAKER_03 15:07

I started making this film in 2014. So that was before live streaming really took off. Um, very few people in uh first-tier cities have heard of live streaming. Uh, what intrigued me back then uh was because I had always wanted to make a film about the rich people in China. But the reality is that very few rich people want to be on camera, right? Want to be interviewed, being followed around by a camera. But then somebody was mentioning about this virtual live streaming world where the rich Tuhao and the poor Del Si, they all party together. So that really intrigued me. And uh, as soon as uh I did some research and found out that the Tuhao, the rich patrons, they really spent tons of money just like to show off virtually and anonymously. That to me is just like so fascinating. That that to me, in many ways, represents what's happening in China today, in my you know, humble opinion. So that kind of like got me going. So I want to find out more about this world. For a while I thought live streaming was just a fad. So I was rushing to finish the film. I was like, you know, I hope that live streaming is still there by the time I finish this film. So it's kind of lucky for me that live streaming really exploded back back in 2016. Uh, even though right now it's not as trendy as before. I think that's also because it has become so mainstream in China.

SPEAKER_07 16:32

Has anything replaced it in popularity?

SPEAKER_03 16:35

Yeah, definitely short video, right? TikTok.

SPEAKER_07 16:37

Oh, right.

SPEAKER_03 16:37

Yeah, yeah. These are what everybody's talking about world worldwide now.

SPEAKER_07 16:43

Is there a monetary component to that? I haven't checked that out too much yet.

SPEAKER_03 16:47

Uh I think they're still trying to figure out how to monetize. I mean, with the the TikTok at the quest of the short video, I think they're still trying to figure out whether their business model can be supported just by traditional sponsorship and advertising. Still trying to figure that thing out.

SPEAKER_06 17:02

Yeah, it's interesting because I I was talking to a friend about a very young friend in China about YY and some of the live streaming, and she was like, you know, and she mentioned, of course, the short videos and TikTok. And then I started delving into that a little bit with her about how they make money. And she said a lot of it, it seems a lot of it too is like the idea of being discovered to lead to something else. So I guess like every other form of you know online. So someone hears you doing this, a lot of people go in there and do songs and that kind of stuff, and then they get a the chance to have more fans and get asked to perform somewhere. So it's ever evolving, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 17:38

Yeah, so right now for short video, the two top apps, uh TikTok and Quaisho. I know Quaisho is trying to encourage uh the KRLs on its platform to start doing live streaming because the live streaming has a clearly defined business model, and the live, you know, whoever does the live streaming on Quaisho can make a lot of money and the platform can take a huge cut. But with the other sponsorships and advertising, uh they they they can still make money, but it's not gonna be as fast as and or as lucrative as live streaming.

SPEAKER_07 18:12

I'm still fairly new to all of this terminology. Is KRL the same thing as influencer or are they different?

SPEAKER_03 18:17

I think so. I mean KRL is some a term that people in Asia use a lot, right? People in the US people in the US use that term.

SPEAKER_06 18:26

Okay, okay. It's like key key opin key opinion leader. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 18:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 18:32

You hear it in in business a lot, like branding. Like if you want someone to talk about your product, I think. But yeah, I I hear it mainly in Asia. I don't hear I hear influencer in the US.

SPEAKER_07 18:42

Well, how this this rich talking to the poor in live streaming, what is that the only place, one of the few places that that has happened in China? And why is it so important?

SPEAKER_03 18:53

It's not necessarily uh important. I think it just fascinating to me because I really want to do a story about the uh the class divide in society, but I want to do it in a fun way rather than in a heavy-handed way of uh social commentary. It fascinated me is that when the rich and poor get together, what's gonna happen? Because in real life, they will never mingle, right? You will never be able to observe it, but uh online they are together.

SPEAKER_07 19:18

I just wonder about that, like the the rich and the poor, they talk to each other. Are they talking? Because it looked like a lot of like money going in different directions. Well, mostly in one direction. But as as far as the like talking part of it, is that the offline component, like what the what the host might when they might meet with the um with the two house afterwards or whatnot, is that the talking part of it?

SPEAKER_03 19:41

Even in the live streaming chat room, they talk to each other, but mostly it's uh it's the fans will type like, I admire you, you're so awesome. Right, right, right. The rich too get a huge ego satisfaction, but they can also add each other privately on YY. They can even exchange WeChat contacts with each other. They can we chat there are so many WeChat groups, right? I mean, the actual how a rich patron can start his or her own WeChat groups, have a huge following. They can have a huge social media following in that way, and then in those WeChat rooms, I think there's more definitely back and forth interaction. But overall, it's about the poor, adore the rich, even Humbaugh red envelopes every once in a while on WeChat.

SPEAKER_07 20:30

Oh wow. So not just the host has WeChat groups, but the patrons themselves have WeChat groups where they talk to the people watching the hosts also?

SPEAKER_03 20:39

Primarily it's the uh the the host WeChat groups where the toha will be super active, right? They are almost like the admin level control. And then other you know, die hard fans will be there as well. Um but the sometimes the the the toha, the rich patrons, they can start their own WeChat groups. Sorry, it's complicated. They can start their own groups on YY, yeah, and also they can move the group to WeChat or some other social media platform as well. In that space.

SPEAKER_07 21:09

So I love the the triangle that that Shenman uh talks about during the documentary where she shows the host at the top, oh basically just using English terms, the loser on one side, the Patreon on the other side. So that that's those are the three things. And then eventually she talks about the agencies that start to overtake them in the middle and the interactions between all four of those populations is so fascinating.

SPEAKER_03 21:32

Yep, that's uh that's why live streaming is successful because live streaming, uh, the platforms they they found a way to really design features that can appeal to the different roles, needs, how to satisfy their needs online, but also they design this kind of revenue flow that everybody can take a cut uh in the revenue flow, and everybody has an incentive to invest in the host future income. Or profitability. So that's how live streaming has increasingly become a money game.

SPEAKER_07 22:06

Well, since we're talking about money in this documentary, no, I'm just kidding. I'm not asking you for money. I do have a support page on stepfuccio.weebly.com, but that's not what this announcement is for. What I want instead of money, believe it or not, are more listeners, more people just like you who are interested in this conversation that we're having about people moving around geographically and what that does to their online selves. Do they change their online personas when they change countries? I don't know. Do you know? How do they change it? Let's investigate that some more. And buy some more. Listen more listeners like you. So please do send virtual expats in any way, shape, or form. Email, Twitter, Facebook. Where else? Tumblr. Snapchat? Is that still around? Uh, if you're in China, WeChat, Weibo. And I'm losing my track of social media apps. You get the idea. Please do share virtual expats in just word form, picture form, sound form, send a voice message to a friend. Say you have to listen to virtual expat. That would be fantastic. Whatever you do, however you do it, I appreciate you. Yes, you and you, and you, and you. Thank you so much. Let's get back to how.

SPEAKER_06 23:20

After the documentary, I think a lot of people were asking about, oh, China, this is so interesting, what's happening in China, and kind of really pointing out the very China-ness of this. And you were saying, well, actually, a lot of these similar things happen in the US or you know, quote unquote Western countries, so that there's such diversity and difference within China, but a lot of times I guess people are sort of pitying, like, oh, China's so different.

SPEAKER_03 23:43

Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. I mean, even when I was uh trying to update a founding support from PBS, PBS has this concern as well. It's like, is this film trying to kind of give uh the US audience the same stereotypical views about China again? But I I think I think I think for me, any piece of great art will tell a very particular story. Hopefully that particular story will also be able to convey something more not universal, is a wrong word. It's like more representative of what's really happening in a society, right? So if you look at People's Republic desire, the group of people that's been portrayed in the film, the host, the loser fans, as well as the rich patrons, they by no means represent the entire society of China. Because live streaming, as compared to short video or even Wi-Boy or WeChat, live streaming consumption in China is uh comparatively dominated by people with lower education, uh, people who really have no hope uh in terms of advancing their economic well-being and social status in the current China society. So, in that way, live streaming is not representative of what's happening in China. But on the other hand, this intense focus on money, you creating success and happiness with money, and the people who have money wanting to show up, and the poor wanting to become those rich people. So in some way, this is kind of what's happening in China today, as China going through this huge social economic change. So, yeah, I mean that's why I said um during one of the QAs is that I don't think this film represents China, but hopefully it can be indicative of what's happening in China to some degree.

SPEAKER_07 25:31

So it's almost a mirror image kind of of what's happening in real life China.

SPEAKER_03 25:35

No, I think it's more extreme image. Sure, yeah. Extreme image, but the the the even though it's extreme, it contains certain kernels or truth.

SPEAKER_07 25:44

Well, that sounds like the internet.

SPEAKER_06 25:47

Yes, yeah. Well, another thing you had mentioned in another interview, and I think we also heard a little discussion of in in the talk, was that the YY, in particular, the live streaming platform that was featured in People's Republic of Desire uh was also in not being a complete reflection of study, it was much more male-based. There were a lot more men viewers, and it's start because it started as I guess related to gaming, a gaming platform. I don't know if you know if that's still true or if it's if that kind of covers if that's true for live streaming in general, and how you think maybe that impacts what we see in the film and how it relates to the overall society.

SPEAKER_03 26:24

I think YY is arguably probably I don't have access to all the financials over the different live streaming platforms in China, but I still think Y is the most profitable live streaming platform in China. And uh even though, because it's origin as a voice tool for online gamers, uh, so a lot of uh YWA's early fan base was migrated over from those gamers, tend to be more male and uh lower income. But but I think in some ways Y's still representative of the live streaming world in China, because YWI was the first one that clearly established a business model to make live streaming platforms profitable. So all the latecomers, they're all trying to replicate what YY did well, which is trying to attract hosts and then trying to get them to attract the big patrons. In the US, they are called whales. Um the patrons who spend a lot of money online. The newer live streaming platform, they just try to replicate what YY does. So to some degrees, yes, they they are just become clones of YY, even though each one has slightly different, you know, user demographics and the revenue split or the how they design their game rules are slightly different. But overall, they're very similar.

SPEAKER_07 27:47

One of the most interesting parts of People's Republic of Desire for me was watching the fans like Yong and their urban alienation and how they found like a comfort space or a home or what have you in uh Big Lee's uh live streams and and and the community they found of other um of other viewers who also liked watching him and they felt like they were rooting for him and all of that kind of stuff. I couldn't help but think as someone who analyzes the expat bubble and and adjustment periods when people move outside their home country, which feels very similar when you move from a very different city to a very different city in the same country. I can't help but wonder, did you hear of any of them stop uh that they stopped watching the live streams once they actually acclimated and felt more comfortable in their physical place?

SPEAKER_03 28:37

During the time I was filming, I was in terms of the migrant workers whom I followed, some of them really got into watching live streaming. Uh a couple of them watch it just for fun every once in a while during the annual competition when there was a lot of money thrown being thrown around. But these these are the type who never really got into live streaming. I actually haven't experienced having witnessed anybody quitting watching live streaming altogether. I kept on asking Jung, I said, when are you gonna quit watching live streaming? And he said, whenever Big Lee stops performing. But Big Lee is still there making his money, so I uh Young is still watching him. But once again, for my film, because in my film I really focus on two very successful live streamers, as well as their die-hard uh fans, right? So these are not the average fans who just come in once a week, once a month to watch someone sing or bigly tell telling dirty jokes. These these are the ones who spend every evening with their idols. So for them to really quit, um you know, it must be something majorly changed in their life, personal life. For example, if they get married or if they have a girlfriend, they don't have time to do to watch live streams anymore in the evenings.

SPEAKER_07 29:59

Right. I wondered as I was watching it why Jung didn't just take his phone and start live streaming himself. He seemed like a very personable, attractive young man, and I kept thinking, just go do it. You can make more than 400 a month. Go do it. Did he ever talk about the desire to be on the live stream?

SPEAKER_03 30:16

Uh we talk about it, but he he he knows. He knew back then that he he didn't have what it takes to become a live streamer.

SPEAKER_04 30:24

Come on.

SPEAKER_03 30:24

I mean, I found it difficult to talk, like we've been talking for 30 minutes now. I found it very challenging for me to keep on talking, even though I'm being prompted with questions. Like for a live streamer, they have to just like add lip, right? Coming up with stuff to talk about for one to two hours straight. So that's really difficult. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 30:44

Yeah. Yeah. So I wonder how how does the we saw in the film the talent manager and the you know the whole setup as you talked about financially. How do people end up getting into it? I mean, is it something they feel like they have a talent for and they try and then people are certain, you know, cultivated from there? Or how does it how does all that even begin?

SPEAKER_03 31:07

So I think there are two kinds. I mean, for in the early adopters, they they kind of just fell into this. Uh, for example, uh Big Lee and Sheman, they were among that generation who used YY as a voice tool to play online games. And then as the two evolved into live streaming, they were there. So they were the first group of people who started doing uh live streaming and they became really successful. So later ones who wanted to start doing live streaming mostly because they want to make money. They heard that live streamers make so much money, so they wanted to try themselves. But you know, because they were not cut out, necessarily cut out for that, live streaming is very competitive. And if you you really have to have some kind of talent, and also you need to be able to engage with your fans in real time. So not everybody can do it. Even if you are a great singer, if you don't know how to interact with the fans, uh the fans are gonna leave you. So yeah, it's really hard for newcomers to stay and grow their fan base and to become another top live streamer.

SPEAKER_06 32:17

Yeah, it seems like people have this idea in a way that it's easy and you know, this easy way to get rich, but also as you talked about it, I'm thinking it that's a very difficult uh job. I mean, it that is uh hard to have that. When you watched them doing it, it was it's amazing to think, you know, and your film would show small segments, but to imagine them doing this for hours, that's not something everyone can do for sure.

SPEAKER_03 32:41

Yeah, exactly. Like that's why Big Lee, he used to, you know, like to talk a lot, but nowadays, after he finishes his shows, he doesn't he he doesn't want to talk like to talk to anybody. He just wants to be quiet. It's kind of exhausting. Sure.

unknown 32:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:58

I get that excellent. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 33:01

So what what's the reaction been to the documentary and um has it varied depending on where you're where it's being viewed, which country or even city or kind of the events that you've done some live talks?

SPEAKER_03 33:13

Yeah, I mean, it depends. Um when when I travel to film festival with this film, I think the the best response I received uh were from cities where there are a large Chinese immigrant population or Chinese student population, because these these are the ones who have heard of live streaming and you know who knew something about it but didn't know a lot. So when they watch my film, the the film just resonated with them a lot. So I think for our non-Chinese audience, because live streaming is really not a mainstream internet phenomenon outside of China or maybe Korea, so people like like the typical non-Chinese audience, they look at this, they will they will be shocked, but to them it's more like almost like an allegorical Black Mirror type of uh sci-fi story to them. It doesn't really resonate, right? So um it's kind of unfortunate I this film couldn't be publicly screened in China because censorship reasons, but uh, of the limited numbers of uh public screenings I did in China, the audience response was phenomenal in China.

SPEAKER_07 34:30

And you mentioned this a little bit before, but but I want to attack it head on. Um, as you were making the documentary, did you find yourself using the internet andor social media differently? Because you mentioned you you were thinking about quitting Facebook, but it sounds like you didn't. But what what effect did it have on you?

SPEAKER_03 34:48

I spent two years filming, uh following my characters, and then I spent a year and a half just editing. And uh kind of uh a few months into the editing process, I just realized this story is really a dystopian story, and uh I was I I keep on watching and rewatching the footage of my characters struggling to be happy, even though they're so they have made so much money and they're so popular online in China. So that kind of made me think of um not wanting to be so dependent on social media for affirmation myself, because whenever we post something on social media, we post in order to um communicate, to be recognized. So there's always this uh uh desire for other people to like you, post, or leave a comment to interact with you. Uh so but basically, as you know, as I spent more time making this film, I kind of wanted to get away from that kind of that desire of mine wanting to be liked online. But in the end, as I mentioned before, as an independent filmmaker, I kind of have to rely on social media to engage with my fans and to get the work out there and to continue to promote the film. It's a little ironic sometimes when I think about it. But then, you know, when I try to do finish the Kickstarter campaign for this film, there were really a lot of people who came out and supported me, uh, not only on Kickstarter campaign page, but also they tell their friends on social media. So I guess, you know, that comes back to whatever we want to criticize, we shouldn't just dump, you know, dump everything out. Because there's always a positive sign as well. So because right now I feel like in the West, the media discussion about internet and social media has swung all the way to the other extreme, as if social media is all bad, right? It's uh uh it's too uh it's very addictive, it's all echo chamber. But let's not forget, there's also some positive thing that has come with social media with the internet.

SPEAKER_07 37:04

Exactly, exactly. And I find that as I'm interviewing people about their online existence and the the chronological uh aspect of it and things, and it just it's so amazing to me how many different good things that can come from it and how many, and almost equally how many dangerous aspects of it can happen. But I I I still lean towards the side of it's not the technology, it's something that we might have veered towards, even if it wasn't available, it's just making it possibly easier for us to do, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 37:38

Yeah, that's definitely true. But also today uh there was news that WHO is uh convening a meeting to discuss whether to make uh online gaming, uh addiction to online gaming, one of you know mental illnesses, right? So these two once these tools become available, you know, it's like anything that can easily be abused by people who have a desperate need for it. So we all need to watch out for that.

SPEAKER_07 38:08

And that brings up a really good question. The the term desire, as I was watching the documentary, I was thinking, okay, is it the desire for money? Is it the desire for connection? And you were just saying it was the desire to um it sounds like what you just said was it was it is more of the desire of connection. But did you want it to the desire to have many different hats throughout the documentary, or did you have a specific desire in mind when you named it?

SPEAKER_03 38:35

Uh I think I stuck with that name. I wasn't personally, I wasn't very happy with that name. That's kind of like too big and too heavy. Um, but I stuck with it because it's really hard to summarize what the desire, you know, these live streaming fans and hosts are trying to get satisfied online. Um I just kind of like, you know, the vagueness of that term because it's like you said earlier, it's online is like a mirror, right? It basically reflects whatever desires we're looking to satisfy. I couldn't get satisfied in real life, and then we go online, seek the gr seek the gratification for it. So it could be recognition, it could be relationship, it could be money, it could be fame. Uh, there are all kinds. Obviously, because it's China, uh, if you look at the film, money plays a big comp, you know, it's a major component of this kind of desire being projected online. But I think there's still also like the those poor fans, they they just want to feel connected to their idols. Two more quick questions for you.

SPEAKER_06 39:45

Um, yeah, I guess since we're wrapping up, um, what is something that you wish people or we would have asked uh about the documentary that you haven't been asked yet, or something, some final kind of comment on it that we haven't delved into.

SPEAKER_03 40:00

Oh, wow. Okay, that's a tricky one. No, I think that you guys are asking all the right questions. I mean, you really got into the film. You like the film, you did, you know, you you've been in China for a while, so you understand the social context from which this story came about. So I think you guys are asking all the right questions.

SPEAKER_07 40:21

Um, looking at the next generation of internet users, if there's anything specifically that you are thinking about teaching your own children about being good digital citizens or having that balanced online life.

SPEAKER_03 40:34

That's a tricky one. My kids are three and a half years old.

SPEAKER_07 40:37

Start young these days, I hear. I know, I know.

SPEAKER_03 40:40

I just want to keep phones away from them as long as I possibly can. Uh, it's so scary how much uh, you know, especially like I know how phones can be addicted to me. So I'm kind of worried about young kids growing up just uh I also observe my nieces how much time they spend on their phone. They are in colleges, uh in college. And right now they just like they are on on on WeChat, on, you know, on whatever app they're using all the time. They they don't even bother to talk to adults anymore. So that to me is a little scary. I don't know. That's gonna be a big challenge for me to deal with.

SPEAKER_06 41:22

You know, teaching your children about that is a big project, but also it from a professional perspective, I'm wondering if you would share a little bit about um anything you're working on now.

SPEAKER_03 41:30

Oh yeah, I'm launching a 40-minute short film on Netflix on May 3rd. It's about my journey to have kids through surrogacy and bringing my quote-unquote modern American family back to meet my relatives in China. It's a personal doc documentary, and people will be able to start watching it in on Netflix in May.

SPEAKER_07 41:53

Is that the all in my family one?

SPEAKER_03 41:55

Yeah, all in my family.

SPEAKER_07 41:57

Wonderful. Okay, that's great. Fantastic. Well, Hal, thank you so much for staying up and uh chatting with us binationally. It's funny, I was born in in New York City, so we're we're kind of in each other's spaces.

SPEAKER_03 42:10

No, we're so too closely right now.

SPEAKER_07 42:12

Too funny, too funny. Well, thank you very much for joining us.

SPEAKER_06 42:15

Wonderful. Thanks so much for your time.

SPEAKER_03 42:17

You're welcome. Have a nice day.

SPEAKER_07 42:19

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Virtual Expats Podcast. I have so many thank yous about to come out of me. Are you ready for this? Thank you to Hawu, our wonderful guest, and very, very talented documentarian. Also, thank you to our co-host for this episode, Shannon Martin. And you know what? I have to thank you, the listeners. It's because of you that I'm able to keep going, episode after episode. Also, I cannot forget the wonderful Damon Castillo who has some concerts coming up in Central Coast, California. If you live in that area, check him out at Damoncastillo.com. His link, of course, is going to be in the show notes. If you'd like to contact me for any reason, feedback, questions, or to be a guest on the show in the fall, do do do contact me anywhere. My handle is exactly the same at every single platform. S-T-E-P-H-U-C-C-I-O. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

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SPEAKER_00 43:40

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SPEAKER_02 43:47

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